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withthewindinherfootsteps · 2 months ago

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Wei Wuxian and Narrative Agency – Part One

For Xiantober Day One: Genius… albeit stretching the prompt so it refers to MXTX and MDZS itself, but at the end of the day it’s still about WWX – so no harm done!

(Part Two | Part Three | Full version on AO3)

The narrative is a very active player in MDZS’ story. How it presents information, what it chooses to show and omit, often reflects important facets of its themes and characters – Nie Huaisang, for instance, is so good at hiding behind his mask that not even the narrative can hold him accountable; the present day’s storyline as a murder mystery and the slow reveal of information about the past both prompt the reader to think critically about the truth of events, when the importance of thinking critically is an important theme; and the dangers not thinking critically (and instead basing conclusions on rumours without much evidence) are shown by tricking unquestioning readers into the very same trap the cultivation world falls into, as the information given by the title, summary and in-universe rumours – which contradicts how we see actually Wei Wuxian act – turns out to be false.

But nowhere do I love this trait more than in its treatment of Wei Wuxian – and, more specifically, in its way of emphasising his agency. We’re not just told how much his active choices define his character, and we’re not just shown this in-universe through his personality, worldview and the events he causes. I’d argue that this aspect goes a step further, and shapes the structure of the out-of-universe narrative as well.

There are two main ways this happens: one, in how the aspects of Wei Wuxian’s life that are shown and hidden directly tell us what’s important about his character (which is good writing but isn’t necessarily tied to this shaping of the narrative), which is what we’ll explore today; and two, how what’s shown and hidden reflects what Wei Wuxian himself prefers to dwell on, resulting in the narrative respecting his own thoughts and feelings on matters (which very much is tied to it). We’ll explore this at a later date.

But as for now – let’s explore my favourite aspect of MDZS.

(Here, narrative agency will be considered the ability of a character to meaningfully influence their events and the story they’re in.)

Tragedy, Circumstance, Choice

If we simply look at Wei Wuxian’s backstory in a vacuum, it seems almost typically tragic. His parents died in circumstances beyond his control, he was left alone as a child with nobody to care for him, he was forced to grow up fending for himself on the streets, he was faced with abuse when he finally was taken in… as with all typical woobies, everything simply happened to him, and none of it was good. It’s just another example of the lack of agency being used for sympathy points, right?

…Except there’s one problem with that idea. We don’t actually see any of this.

It would’ve been easy to start the flashbacks during these times. We’re telling the story of Wei Wuxian in (largely) chronological order, and these are likely important experiences for him! But instead of starting in his street days, or evenat the moment Jiang Fengmian took him in*, we start at the lectures in the Cloud Recesses. That’s not even something mentioned in, and therefore something that’s able to disprove, the rumours at the start of the novel. So why is this the case?

Well, there are multiple reasons – the main one being that MDZS is also Lan Wangji’s (and Wangxian’s) story, and having the flashbacks open with their first meeting is very satisfying. But I want to focus on something else.

This period doesn’t have to be shown, because what happens to Wei Wuxian, especially out of his control, isn’t what’s important about his character.

We’re not even at Lotus Pier here, where Wei Wuxian certainly has more agency than he would’ve had as a young child, but where the harm caused by Madame Yu is still completely out of his control. Here, he has agency! Though there are consequences, he is free to act, and what happens to him is a result of those actions and not of circumstance. Yes, he gets punished more than others who also take those same actions (due to classism); yes, it’s not his choice to be picked on by Lan Qiren in class (yet look how he responds, twisting the situation to his advantage and ending up tricking Lan Qiren into letting him leave, which is what he wanted to do. He is not at all helpless here!); yes, these choices have been influenced by his learned mindset from Madame Yu that punishment is arbitrary and will happen anyway, so you may as well do what you want regardless. But there is cause-and-effect here. It’s not circumstantial tragedy.

Therefore, instead of our first impression of past!Wei Wuxian being that of an unfortunate woobie, it’s of someone who has the freedom, ability and will to choose and act (and that’s after these initial tragic events have taken place). This is compounded by the fact that before we see any of his backstory, we get a similar impression of him in the present day.

If the purpose of his tragic past was to earn him sympathy points, to make us pity him due to how much he was influenced by events out of his control, this would’ve been a terrible way of going about it… and it’s this that betrays the true reason for its existence. Because now, the flashbacks instead show us how little these tragedies define who he is! From the very start, Wei Wuxian isn’t someone defined by circumstances out of his control, but rather by who he is as a person and by what choices he makes in the present day (which is both a mindset in-universe, and a nice little out-of-universe detail that lines up! Because out-of-universe, this means he’s not defined by sympathy points from a backstory, but rather by his great character writing… aka, by who he is as a person and what choices he makes). And this refusal to be defined by tragedy is a conscious choice on his part, too – but we’ll explore that more later.

The important thing is that this idea of Wei Wuxian isn’t because of what exists in his past, it’s because of what parts of his past are shown to us (as well as what he chooses to do, with agency, in the present).

Now, if this relationship between what’s displayed and what’s omitted was just a one-time thing, I might’ve considered it a cool detail or a nice way to establish a character, but not something the narrative is actively focusing on. But it’s a pattern that continues throughout the flashbacks. What, arguably, are the two other most important times in Wei Wuxian’s life where he doesn’t have enough agency to meaningfully influence his circumstances? His three months in the Burial Mounds (before escaping – he managed to assume some control of the circumstances but not enough to substantially reduce his suffering in his time there), and his loss and death during the First Siege. And we’re not shown either of them! We skip to when Wei Wuxian has emerged from the Burial Mounds and is torturing the Wens, or we skip to the present day – both times he has agency once more, because, again, what he’s like without it doesn’t matter enough to be shown.

Furthermore, I’d argue this does actually contrast the other tragic events we see in Wei Wuxian’s later life. Things do go horribly wrong, but it’s either due to choices he knows the consequences of (see: rescuing the Wen Remnants in the first place), or instances where he still has some ability to act in the situation and influence it within the limitations. If he’d had no ability to influence circumstances at Qiongqi path, he would have died in the ambush; if he’d been unable to do that at Nightless City, he would’ve died then, too (of course Lan Wangji helped him escape as well). The attention drawn to him losing control of his actions in both instances is very interesting, but intentional or not, it’s still his actions influencing the plot. And that influence happens to be detrimental. The very ability to act and influence, at a base level, is not taken away (though, of course, that doesn’t make these events any less tragic).

So, so far, the narrative seems to be telling us that the ability to act and choose is key to Wei Wuxian’s character. And it’s doing it through omitting his moments without agency in favour of instead showing us his moments with it.

Let’s see if this is echoed in the text itself before we go further – because even with this pattern, nothing would end up mattering if Wei Wuxian’s agency wasn’t actually that important to the story itself. But thankfully it is, and that first impression we get of Wei Wuxian in the Cloud Recesses turns out to very much be accurate! Though there are defining circumstances out of his control that occur, such as the massacre of Lotus Pier, the majority of the important events of his life are due to his own choices. He didn’t happen to be forced to cease traditional cultivation and solely use guidao, didn’t happen to lose his Golden Core in a fight with Wen Zhuliu or due to some force in the Burial Mounds, it was his own choice to give it and his spiritual powers away. He didn’t tragically happen to get targeted by the cultivation world, it was a result of him acting on his morals and protecting the Wen remnants (a choice which he was fully aware of the implications of). He isn’t a protagonist to whom things simply occur, and that activeness and agency is my favourite thing about him.

That’s not to say that the times Wei Wuxian doesn’t have agency, or feels like he doesn’t have any, don’t exist at all, either – but they are rare enough to have attention directly drawn to them in his internal narration:

Or else what could he do? He could do nothing. He was powerless. Lotus Pier had been destroyed, both Jiang FengMian and Madam Yu were gone, and Jiang Cheng had disappeared as well. He was the only one left, alone, with not even a sword in his hands. He didn’t know anything, he couldn’t do anything! For the first time, he discovered how little his power was. In front of something as large as the QishanWen Sect, it was the same as a mantis trying to stop a chariot. - Chapter 59, EXR translation

(And even in this circumstance, note that he still does force himself to act – to carry on searching for Jiang Cheng, to place his faith in Wen Ning – and does accomplish his goal (albeit with the help of others)! So even in dire situations, he isn’t simply passive. This is actually also the case with his time in the Burial Mounds, almost certainly the First Siege, and even his days on the streets as well (Chapter 20: he did actively fight with dogs to get food despite their danger and his growing fear of them, rather than just waiting and hoping to somehow receive some more). He can’t influence or immediately influence his circumstances, but that doesn’t stop him from trying.)

Overall, although they do influence him, Wei Wuxian is very much who he is in spite of his circumstances, not because of them. We’re shown the importance of his agency both in-universe by the major impacts his choices have on himself and the plot, as well as by narrative presentation – important periods where he lacks the ability to meaningfully influence anything are often mentioned but not directly shown, which suggests that such moments and circumstances aren’t as important to understanding Wei Wuxian’s character as moments where he does have this agency are. And I’d argue this works very well. Depending on the version of the story you consume, you may end up having different interpretations as to how much circumstances were at play nearer the end of his life – but nobody comes out of MDZS thinking about Wei Wuxian, the poor bearer of yet another generically tragic backstory.

(Part Two | Part Three | Full version on AO3)

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*We are shown this moment in more detail in Chapter 23… but even then, it’s through the framing of Wei Wuxian remembering Jiang Yanli’s narration, not through a flashback proper or even him remembering the experience itself!

#there are three parts to this #part two dwelling on how wwx not dwelling on tragedy is a conscious choice #part three about how that choice and wwx’s preferences are ALSO behind what’s shown and what’s not #i originally wanted to post them all at once but life was very busy and they haven’t been finished yet #and i wanted to release SOMETHING on this day (it is after midnight but i haven’t slept yet and in a lot of timezones it’s not yet)#judging by the current length of it it’s probably better to be posting individual parts anyway…#so here we go #a complete version will br put on ao3 when done #also because i’m not sure where to put it in the meta – i’m aware external circumstances did impact this too #eg mxtx not wanting to write power-up/transformation sequences influencing her not to write wwx’s time in the burial mounds #i’m also aware a lot of this could be writing efficiency and not the deeper meanings i’ll (mostly later) assign to it #ultimately there’s not enough evidence either way to say if this was intentional or not #(i don’t doubt mxtx is an amazing writer but *i* feel i’m overanalysing while writing this which i do tend to do)#but even if it wasn’t it’s still a part of the story #and it still remains one of the things i love it the most #so i WILL explore it (taking the approach of death of the author here – i do believe context is important but i just love this throughline-#-so much)#xiantober #xiantober day 1 #mdzs meta #my meta #wei wuxian #wwx #mdzs #mo dao zu shi #魔道祖师 #grandmaster of demonic cultivation #gdc

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sky-is-the-limit · 7 months ago

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Most of the time you know how a Zoro or Sanji smut will unfold but Luffy smut? It hits different every single time.

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kuroeko · 1 month ago

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personalities really shine here

#inazuma eleven #aphrodi #afuro terumi #fubuki shirou #kazemaru ichirouta #kidou yuuto #gouenji shuuya #endou mamoru #stress and strain #kidou has three phones and intended one to be for personal use but everyone got that number anyways #gounji is a typo because he only had one hand at the moment #fubuki works off of a giant pc stack #aphrodi cant just use his preferred name bc his licensure is under his legal name so he compromises #kazemaru is always overtly formal #even in internal emails #and yes endou is always in ALL CAPS

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batsplat · 3 months ago

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this is how i think the valentino/casey rivalry plays out in their minds

#the text is just for comic effect to be clear like don't try to read all that. i didn't put enough thought into it for people to read it #//#brr brr #valentino does end up in a more complicated place with casey but the weird thing about it is that -#- the shift only happens for all intents and purposes AFTER the 'rivalry' in on-track terms is kinda over #but then he doesn't even really continue the off-track rivalry in any meaningful way after 2012 #so there's only like a three year time period where valentino got proper weird about casey. not the same continuity #(i'm not saying his behaviour in '08 was 'normal' but emotionally it's very straightforward. to him it's normal to casey it seems deranged)#'base casey' i think was a very comfortable rival for valentino. like he's a tough one to crack obviously but it's a comfort zone opponent #you don't have anything emotionally complicated. which is basically how valentino WOULD prefer it. just the fight for the win #what's really fascinating is that insofar as casey DID unsettle valentino in later years it was in the ways in which he increasingly -#- adapted bits of valentino's playbook to suit his own needs. vale's always least comfortable when fighting a reflection of himself #heretic tag

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knickety · 2 months ago

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I think about yaocule -> I think about yaocule -> I think about yaocule -> I think about yaocule -> I think about yaocule -> I think about yaocule -> I think about yaocule -> I think about yaocule -> I think about yaocule ->

#hsr #yaoqing trio #feixiao #jiaoqiu #moze #I don't tag my posts on them as yaocule because I'm like.#actually not sure how I read their dynamic to be completely honest with you #are they found family?#are they all kissing?#are feixiao and jiaoqiu kissing while moze is their feral cat bestie?#as some examples #like I don't know. I don't know what my preferred flavor of it is #but what I DO KNOW #is that regardless of what way you read it.#these three are so important to each other #they love each other so much #and that makes me happy

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sukibenders · 5 months ago

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Racism and misogynoir are so apparent in fandom, especially when it comes to shipping because why is it when a white male, sometimes female but I see it more with the former, character is on screen with a love interest, particularly woc, especially if they're black, and even with all the emotional scenes or just moments where they look at one another in ways different from the rest, it's met with "No, they aren't dating/the show is not going to put them together" but let the other love interest be white as well and suddenly it all makes sense? Heck, the examples I mentioned above don't even have to exist between the latter for some to STILL go and believe this rhetoric (eg. some Jace and Helaena shippers because, even if these two only interacted with a dance but yet we see Baela console Jace, after he seeks her out, apparently it's to far fetched to believe that Jacela could be a thing?!)

Sometimes it could be a headcanon that, largely, would make sense (and oftentimes was birth due to lack of respect that the poc characters could have been given by the writers *cough* TVD *cough*), and yet you'd still have people dismissing it left and right and spewing hate. At a HEADCANON! And I'm not saying that just because the other person in the ship is poc that you have to ship them, I'm not, but it's very apparent to many poc fans in fandom that unless the characters are swapping spit and doing the nasty, the possibility of them being viewed in any romantic lens feels too much of stretch even though their white counterparts don't have to jump through the same loops.

#fandom racism #and even if the characters are already together in some way you still have some in the fandom picking a part every little thing #and don't let it be a love triangle either bc even tho the main consensus is supposed to be rooting for one side #if the other happens to be poc you can BET that their will be racial undertones from the fandom used as “justification”#(mark/amber/eve even tho mark is half korean but even with that some fans still viewed him as white and used that even more to hate on amber #and use a lot of misogynior) i remember those dark days in that fandom #from the early days until the ends of the westallen to jacela its so apparent especially when the love interest is black #and its not only jace/helaena shipprs that do this but cregan/sara shippers as well #and this is coming from someone who doesn't even mind jacelaena (prefers jace/hel/baela tho)#dont even get me started on the star wars fandom & how the idea of finn and rey was too out there l #and how much racism finn & john boyega had to deal with as a result #and i just know the same will happen with percy & annabeth when rachel is added (as someone who ships all three of them too)#like you can ship whomever you want but at the same time don't ignore/be apart of this racist and hateful rhetoric #jacela #sydcarmy #percabeth #westallen #bc its the way that this can be applied to SO MANY fandoms and ships that it's exhausting #finnrey #bamon #klonnie #kennett #tvd #pjo #star wars #hotd #the flash #for queer stories too bc ill never forget how some acted about dare me even tho the afro latina character was literally being groomed!#so many examples to many to name 😭#stefonnie

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mechaness · 5 months ago

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First of many

So much had happened. Nasiens had found her biological family, she found out about herself, she almost died... but now her hero was with her again.

When the battle was decided, a few words were exchanged and someone gave Percival a cloak so he could cover up. He hadn't even realized he was naked. He apologized, though it was clear he didn't see the issue.

After a while, her new family (she had to present them to Ordo as soon as she could!) left her alone with him, sharing knowing smiles.

Nasiens couldn't stop looking at him.

Percival... She smiled.

"So you are a fairy now? That's so cool!" Percival's voice was so soothing to her. How had she missed his smile!

"Yes... I'm not used to flying, though..."

"But now we can fly together!" Percy said, laughing. He grabbed her hands and gently lifted them up. Nasiens was shocked but soon started smiling again. A little spin in the air, and she was laughing along with him.

"I just can't get used to the height..." she admitted looking down, feeling cold sweat in her forehead. It had been fine in the battle, but now... She looked up at Percival, thinking how silly she was being. Something gleamed in his eyes.

He threw her one of his winning smiles and she felt her heart stop.

"Well, that's easy! Just keep looking at me!" His face was too close to hers, but then again, he had never been good at respecting people's personal space.

And Nasiens couldn't think of anything better to look at than his eyes. He always managed to calm her down. She could do anything as long as he's with her.

"See? You can fly really high if you want!" Like a spell being broken, she looked down. She almost let out a scream. They were so high up she could barely see the ground!

Her arms moved on their own, hugging Percival. She hid her face in the crook of his neck, trembling.

Percival was shocked. Not because of the hug, he loved Nasiens' hugs, as different as this one felt. However, she felt like dead weight. Had she stopped flying?! Of course she wasn't in any real danger as long as he was there to hold her, but...!

"Nasiens?!" He could hear her mumbling nonono again and again, "I'm sorry! I thought...! Are you ok?" He was so worried about her and Nasiens was still trembling, but she managed to answer,

"Ye-yeah..." she looked up. She was again at a loss for words. She knew Percival was still Percival inside, but he was really big now, and tall, and... she could feel her face aflame. "Yeah, I'm... I'm good. I was shocked, I guess..." she couldn't look him in the eyes anymore.

Percy was silent for while before he spoke again.

"You really feel different now, uh..." Nasiens eyes widened at his comment.

"Wh-what do you mean? Is it bad?" Percival's silence made her a little nervous. He wasn't looking at her anymore. She forgot to ask again though, since they landed in the hollow part of a cave, up in a mountain, and the sight amazed her.

"It's beautiful..." she said. Percy agreed, but he wasn't looking outside. His eyes were fixed on the pretty girl he was holding by the waist.

Screw pretty, he thought. Nasiens had always been beautiful, but now... It was like a whole other level. The way she held herself felt different. Also,

"You got boobs now!" he shouted, almost giving her a heart attack. She almost tripped, blushing like crazy.

"Ye... yeah..." she put her hand on her chest. They weren't even that noticeably, but... "the whole thing feels weird..."

"Bad weird?" he sounded genuinely curious.

"N... no, I don't think so. I never felt bad being called a boy, but now... I like this. Being a girl, I mean. It feels right, but I'm... not used to it yet. Not completely, at least. Is that weird?"

"I don't think so! Anyway, Nasiens is Nasiens, no matter what! You are amazing!" when he looked at her, he could see that gentle smile of hers that he loved so much.

Nasiens was so grateful. Of course Percival wasn't fazed. He was just Percival. He hadn't even questioned her change, something which she she was grateful for. She couldn't even imagine how she could start explain the whole thing to him.

She was thinking how much she loved this side of his and was so deep in her thoughts, she didn't realize when Percival got behind her.

"You gotten slimmer too, right? Right?" his poking sent shivers down her spine. What was his obsession with her back?!

Nasiens felt her face aflame again.

"Please, don't do that!" she almost screamed, taking a step back.

"Why? Can't I touch you?" he sounded so innocent, she almost felt bad. But when she looked up again she saw how serious he was. She felt taken back. He had never looked at her like that before, not like this.

How could she tell him that the only thing she wanted was for him to touch her all over... it was just so embarrassing to admit!

She felt her true feelings coming forward before she could stop herself.

"Well, if you a-!" a flashback made her stop. A painful memory crossed her mind and she felt silent.

Anghalhad.

She felt her blood boil.

"...you know what. I think it's best that you don't." She turned, not before giving him the iciest look he had ever seen. That kind of look was never directed at him! Percy got worried.

"N-Nasiens?! Are you angry at me? I hate it when I make you angry!" he ran to her. He grabbed her hand so she couldn't get further away from him. She flinched and stopped, but she didn't look at him. "I'm sorry, did I say something bad?"

"You got Anghalhad to touch, don't you?" she said, immediately regretting her words. It wasn't Percival fault, or Anghalhad's for that matter. Plus, she knew Percival didn't understand these kind of things! She barely could, after all.

"Yeah, I guess..." Percival's voice made her angrier and she felt so ashamed. She took her hand back, snapping at Percy.

"See?! Go to her for all I care!" she looked down, hiding her eyes as best as she could. She couldn't face him like this...

"Wha...?! No! I don't want to! I want to stay here with you! Nasiens!" he grabbed her by the shoulder, shaking her a little. He had to make her understand...!

Were those tears?

"Nasiens...? What's wrong?" she lifted her arm, trying to wipe her tears with her sleeve.

"I... I'm a horrible friend! I don't hate Anghalhad, I actually like her... but thinking about you two...!" she put her hands on her face, trying to control herself. "Who am I to say anything? You are free to do whatever you want...! But I hate it! I hate the thought of you two-!"

Percy hugged her so tightly she almost couldn't breathe. She felt his hand grabbing her hair, same way he had done early that day.

"P... Percival?"

"I won't touch anyone else!" he exclaimed, shocking her. "I don't really get it, but I thought of some else touching you and that made me angry, so I guess it's the same for you? Is that it?"

"Ye... yeah."

"Is it because you love me?" Nasiens felt trapped. She was about to protest when...

"Cause I love you too!" he said, his smile so bright it blinded her. He caught her so out of guard she almost fainted.

"Well," he continued, "I love all my friends... but with you... love falls short. Does that make sense? I want to hold you forever..." Percy said, snuggling to her. Looking down he saw her eyes, so full of hope and love, he couldn't help but smile. Nasiens smiled back.

"Y-yes, it makes sense. I... I feel the same way." Nasiens couldn't believe it. She confessed! She managed to do it and now...

"Good!" he grabbed her waist again, lifting her from the ground, "then it's settled!"

Nasiens felt tears forming again, this time from happiness. Things could be so easy with him sometimes... but then she remembered their little argument. She blushed again.

"A-about before... I don't mind, you know... but, you have to ask."

Percy was confused for a moment. Then it hit him.

"Really?!" he had pulled her down a little. His face was so close to hers...!

"Ye-yeah."

"Can I, then?" he asked. His lips were so close to hers, she felt her heart about to explode.

"Yes..." she tried to close the distance and...

"NASSIE! Percy! Dinner time! Come on, where-! Oh, there you are!" Tioreh shouted, appearing out of nowhere.

"...what are you two doing?" she asked, innocently.

It was a rare sight, if you asked her. Nassie with her face all red, pushing Percy away. Her hand was on Percy's face and he looked miserable, ignoring Tioreh and trying to get close to Nassie.

"But you said I could...!" he whined.

"QUIET, PLEASE!"

Tioreh had never seen Nassie so embarrassed. It was fun!

Later that night...

Nasiens couldn't believe it. They had almost...!

But the moment had been ruined.

She put her hands on her face, sighing. Maybe some other time... She was fixated in the fire next to the log she was sitting on, deep in thought.

"Nasiens! I was looking for you! Look!" Percival's voice took her out of her trance. She looked up to see him better, confused in what was she supposed to be looking at.

He placed a white flower on her hair.

"I knew it! It suits you!" he said, making her blush yet again. She gently touched the white flower with her fingers. "You look beautiful, you know!" Nasiens felt her blush deepen. She was going to get a fever from blushing so much...

"Thank you, Percival..." she smiled at him and he smiled back, love in his eyes. He sat down next to her and she rested her head on his shoulder, sighing.

"Man, that sucked, uh?" he suddenly said, looking down at her. "I really wanted to kiss you."

Nasiens was definitely getting a fever.

"Re-really? Honestly, I did too..."

Without much thought, Percy turned and grabbed her by the waist, surprising her. He flew them away from the dinner and the rest.

In the air, with the moon shining brightly, he looked at Nasiens. He smiled, closing the distance between them.

"Can I?" he whispered.

Nasiens laughed. He really took it to heart to ask first.

"Of course...!"

Their laughter filled the night. At least for tonight, everything was going to all right.

#persiens #percival #nasiens #4kota fanfic #4kota #im getting ahead before 153 breaks my heart lmfaooo #did i read all 4kota chapters in under three days cause i fell in love with a ship?#yes. yes i did.#btw im a firm believer in the blanchefleur theory and that anne is a red herring #i love anne so no hate to her but yeah #also im using she/her pronouns for nasiens cause i believe nasiens is a girl now #tho only time will tell! maybe nasiens will prefer he/him or they/them #who knows!#im changing them depending of what nasiens chooses #my writing #first fic tho lol #also pls don't come at me #i know you dont need anything to be one gender or the other #this was just for this fic and my headcanon that nasiens feels more comfortable being seen and living as a girl #which again this headcanon can be shattered into pieces in a few days lmfao

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gingermintpepper · 2 months ago

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hi, i haven't read the iliad and the odyssey but want to - do u have a specific translation you recommend? the emily wilson one has been going around bc, y'know, first female translator of the iliad and odyssey into english, but i was wondering on if you had Thoughts

Hi anon! Sorry for the somewhat late response and I'm glad you trust me with recommendations! Full, disclosure, I am somewhat of a traditionalist when it comes to translations of the source text of the Iliad + Odyssey combo wombo, which means I tend to prefer closeness in literal verbiage over interpretation of the poetic form of these epics - for that reason, my personal preferred versions of the Odyssey and Iliad both are Robert Fitzgerald's. Because both of these translations (and his Aeneid!) were done some 50+ years ago (63 for his original Odyssey tl, 50 flat for his Iliad and 40 for his Aeneid) the English itself can be a bit difficult to read and the syntax can get confusing in a lot of places, so despite my personal preferences, I wouldn't recommend it for someone who is looking to experience the Iliad + Odyssey for the very first time.

For an absolute beginner, someone who has tried to read one or both of these epics but couldn't get into it or someone who has a lot of difficulty with concentrating on poetry or long, winding bits of prose, I fully and wholeheartedly recommend Wilson's translation! See, the genius of Emily Wilson's Iliad + Odyssey isn't that she's a woman who's translated these classics, it's that she's a poet who's adapted the greek traditional poetic form of dactylic hexameter into the english traditional poetic form of iambic pentameter. That alone goes a very very long way to making these poems feel more digestible and approachable - iambic pentameter is simply extremely comfortable and natural for native english speakers' brains and the general briskness of her verbiage helps a lot in getting through a lot of the problem books that people usually drop the Iliad or Odyssey in like Book 2 of the Iliad or Book 4 of the Odyssey. I think it's a wonderful starting point that allows people to familiarise themselves with the source text before deciding if they want to dig deeper - personally, researching Wilson's translation choices alone is a massive rabbit hole that is worth getting into LOL.

The happy medium between Fitzgerald's somewhat archaic but precise syntax and Wilson's comfortable meter but occasionally less detailled account is Robert Fagles' Iliad + Odyssey. Now, full disclosure, I detest how Fagles handles epithets in both of his versions, I think they're far too subtle which is something he himself has talked at length about in his translation notes, but for everything else - I'd consider his translations the most well rounded of english adaptations of this text in recent memory. They're accurate but written in plain English, they're descriptive and detailled without sacrificing a comfortable meter and, perhaps most importantly, they're very accessible for native english speaking audiences to approach and interact with. I've annotated my Fagles' volumes of these books to heaven and back because I'm deeply interested in a lot of the translation decisions made, but I also have to specifically compliment his ability to capture nuance in the characters' of these poems in a way I don't often see. He managed to adapt the ambivalence of ancient greek morality in a way I scarcely see and that probably has a hand in why I keep coming back to his translations.

Now, I know this wasn't much of a direct recommendation but as I do not know you personally, dear anon, I can't much make a direct recommendation to a version that would best appeal to your style of reading. Ideally, I'd recommend that you read and enjoy all three! But, presuming that you are a normal person, I suggest picking which one is most applicable for you. I hope this helps! 🥰

#ginger answers asks #greek mythology #the iliad #the odyssey #okay so now that I'm not recommending stuff I also highly highly HIGHLY suggest Stephen Mitchell's #Fuck accuracy and nuance and all that shit if you just want a good read without care for the academic side of things #Stephen Mitchell's Iliad and Odyssey kick SO much fucking ass #I prefer Fitzgerald's for the busywork of cross-checking and cross-referencing and so it's the version I get the most use out of #But Mitchell's Iliad specifically is vivid and gorgeous in a way I cannot really explain #It's not grounded in poetic or translationary preferences either - I'm just in love with the way he describes specifically the gods #and their work #Most translations and indeed most off-prose adaptations are extremely concerned with the human players of these epics #And so are a bit more ambivalent with the gods - but Mitchell really goes the extra mile to bring them to life #Ugh I would be lying if I said Mitchell's Apollo doesn't live rent free in my mind mmm #Other translations I really like are Stanley Lombardo's (1997) Thomas Clark's (1855) and Smith and Miller (1944)#Really fun ones that are slightly insane in a more modern context (but that I also love) are Pope's (1715) and Richard Whitaker (2012)#Whitaker's especially is remarkable because it's a South African-english translation #Again I can't really talk about this stuff because the ask was specifically for recommendations #But there are SO many translations and adaptations of these two epics and while yes I have also contributed to the problem by recommending #three very popular versions - they are alas incredibly popular for a reason #Maybe sometime I'll do a listing of my favourite Iliad/Odyssey tls that have nothing to do with academic merit and instead are rated #entirely on how much I enjoy reading them as books/stories LMAO

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