#THEY ARE SAYING THAT SYD AND CARMY ARE PLATONIC BECAUSE CURRENTLY THEY ARE.
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undead-moth · 6 months ago
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I am trying so hard not to be mean.
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thoughtfulchaos773 · 1 month ago
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One of my favorite scenes, big reason, is Sydney opening up and Carmy experiencing pain for Sydney.
But another thing the scene points out is they these two are not platonic. If they are the type of friends that epitomize a platonic relationship with a work family that feels closer than a family, he would know this about Sydney. Yet, he doesn’t. Syd still holds back when it comes to Carmy.
To be fair, she held back about her mom with Marcus too. But now that it’s clear that Marcus and Sydney have a platonic relationship, there’s an ease in their getting to know one another. Currently, based on what the show has presented, we see Carmy trying to get to know Sydney, who remains reserved about her mother until she can't find a way to put her guard up.
That's the dance with these two Sydney puts her guard up Carmy tries to get to know her- how is that friendship or how is that even what Donna says in season 4? That they're closer than family family?
Maybe because we are just getting started next season on Sydney and Carmy becoming closer?
But really Why is it so difficult for them to hang out and party together? Why is Carmy so hurt by the realization that in not focusing on the restaurant, he's missing out on knowinh Sydney? If it's really about friendship, why are there so many barriers preventing it from developing?
Why is there jealousy? Distrust? The longing to trust and open up instead of just doing it? Why is it so difficult for Carmy and Sydney to talk about their deceased loved ones, unlike the conversations that Natalie and Richie have, or the ones Ebra and Tina share?
Why is it so difficult for Sydney and Carmy to have a conversation like Tina and Marcus did in season 3, episode 9, where they can truly check in with each other and exchange ideas?
It's not platonic, and as of now, I have nothing to show that for Sydney work, family - Carmy is closer to her than family.
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wearewildanimals · 6 months ago
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I've been seeing a few comments here and there about how they think Carmy doesn't deserve Syd. How Syd deserve better and that they shouldn't be together. And this is just strange to me on so many levels.
First being if people are now using Carmy's mental health as a reason why they shouldn't be together romantic. But...what happened to platonic soul mates? Lol So a friend should put up with that behavior but not a romantic partner? Like this idea that we need to enter a romantic relationship as "perfect" versions of ourselves is wild. And only then can a romantic relationship be worth it.
And Secondly, he's going to Al-anon. Like he is literally in the process of trying to work on himself. I do hope that next season we do see him in therapy. But to say that only therapy is what's going to help someone and that healing is a liner up hill climb is wild.
I'm not giving up on Syd and Carmy being end game. Because there is just too much romantic subtext to ignore and give up that easily Lol
I understood what the creators were trying to do this season. I felt the disconnect and the conflict between syd and carm this season. As a reflection of their current relationship. And I think there is sooooo much to be said that this season felt so incomplete because we didn't get moments like the table scene. Their relationship is what holds the show together. And everything they have written and shown through music and editing has hinted at a love story.
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undead-moth · 5 months ago
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I think maybe some of the confusion, frustration, and disconnect happening in The Bear fandom over SydCarmy, from sydcarmy truthers, to SydCarmy and ex-SydCarmy shippers who don’t think it will ever be canon, and from people who are vehemently against SydCarmy and overtly annoyed anyone would ever suggest they’re romantic is this:
People are not distinguishing between in-universe and out-of-universe analysis. Or watsonian and doylist analysis respectively.
If you look within The Bear universe, if you analyze using a watsonian lens, there is very little indication that Syd and Carmy have romantic feelings for each other. At most, I would argue that there might be some indication that they’re in the very early stages of beginning to have feelings for each other, or have begun to have feelings for each other without realizing it - but it is also pretty easy to argue that they’re uninterested in each other completely if you look solely in-universe. A lot of the more meaningful moments between them, when looked at solely from an in-universe perspective, could easily be platonic as much as they could be romantic.
However, if you look outside The Bear universe, if you analyze using a doylist lens, if you pay attention to the writing decisions being made in relation to Syd and Carmy, the writing decisions which of course Syd and Carmy are oblivious to, because they do not know they are in a story and they do not know, for example, that love songs are being played over scenes with them in it, or that a heart-shaped food paired with the only fruit associated with blood is being used as a symbol and not one of life’s random coincidences, it becomes pretty obvious that Syd and Carmy are intended to be romantic and that they just haven’t reached the point in the story when that happens yet.
I’m not saying this to argue with anyone who doesn’t ship SydCarmy, or for that matter, to argue with anyone who does. People can ship or not ship whatever they want for whatever reason, regardless of whether or not the ship is or will be canon. I’m only saying this because I think the realization made something click for me. Before I was completely shocked anyone was under the impression SydCarmy wasn’t intended to be romantic, and now I think get it.
The in-universe and out-of-universe for this show are currently not on the same page when it comes to SydCarmy and even though The Bear is far from the first show to do this, I think people are thrown by The Bear more than they would be with another show because The Bear does not hold our hands the way most shows do and a lot of people who aren’t writers or literary/film critics are not used to purposefully distinguishing between watsonian and doylist analysis.
A lot of people only ever look in-universe when watching something, because that is, after all, where the story is and writing decisions are largely intended to be invisible, more felt than seen. The problem, of course, is that all writing decisions still largely contribute to the story being told, and not paying attention to them will only ever allow someone an incomplete analysis.
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really feel like fandom needs to get more comfortable with ambiguous dynamics, and how that ambiguity can be a feature not a bug! i notice this everywhere in fandom now, but this post is about sydcarmy the bear cause that is my current hyperfixation lol. sitting with ambiguity is the lifeblood of so many (all?) queer ships (also, importantly, my real-life queer experience) but i think it’s often relevant for straight ships too. no one is making sydcarmy antis ship them but to say ABSOLUTELY NOT because the nature of their relationship at this very moment is not easily defined is missing so much that is rich and interesting and sexy about figuring out what the dynamic is. *especially* for fan content (which is what a lot of us are here for actually!) using fic and meta to explore what certain words, body language, editing choices, music choices, etc mean is what makes our brains light up! (mine at least)
tension between two characters is the sexiest thing and ambiguity heightens that tension imo! whatever happens or does not happen with them in the future, at this very moment in time the undefinable quality of their relationship creates the space for shipping. this used to be a rather basic concept in fandom that seems to have gotten lost in the past however many years. i guess the primary anti response to this would be that the dynamic is *not* ambiguous—it is platonic—but like, i am with @eatandsleepwell who just included the following in this excellent post today:
and the thing about syd and carm being friends is that. they’re not. or at least not yet. or at least they need more to be friends. friends know your mom is dead, they know what your relationship with your parents is like. friends can easily hang out with each other after work. friends can be apart without the sense that the separation is akin to devastation. 
i don’t really think they’re friends! they are a weird third thing that is so delicious to me, and every single day right now very brilliant people are writing hundreds of words on this website attempting to interpret what that thing is or could be. this is the lifeblood of fandom! and the demand or expectation that ships have neon signs above them that say ROMANTIC to be valid romantic ships is just very odd to me. syd and carmy are weird and intense about each other in a way that is not easy to parse but once you decide to try and parse it, it’s such a satisfying experience as a fan. they had some major blow ups in s1, and in s2 managed to largely avoid them with the asl sorry but clearly were in unspokenish conflict much of the time (that they managed to diffuse just barely; mostly by syd walking away!) besties is not the word i would use to describe them at all. besties do not struggle this much to communicate. there are so many wonderful complicated bonkers things going on there and the purpose of this post isn’t to get into them but just to point out that they’re there.
anyone who thinks it’s easy to reduce them to any one given thing right now isn’t paying enough attention. and not being able to categorize them easily isn’t a bad thing for me. it’s the constant thrum of what is this? what is this? what is this??? that makes fandom great and i wish that didn’t feel like a hot take right now.
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chefkids · 1 year ago
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You know what? I changed my mind. He wasn't lying when he said this. Sydney is definitely not jealous of Claire and Carmy's relationship, because she knows their relationship is ass.
He didn't even try to properly introduce her. He refused to call her his girlfriend several times and even got upset at the implication of it. He takes her to do the most mundane tasks and never on any real dates. Why would Sydney want Claire's relationship? She knows he can be better than that.
Their current relationship is in fact platonic, at least on paper, if anyone asked them what they are they would say they're business partners and maybe friends. They haven't said or done anything that is explicitly romantic cause that would be cheating and Syd is a respectable young woman and he already has a romantic partner.
Their relationship is beautiful and Syd knows that at the very least their unconventional workplace situationship is better and more fulfilling for her than whatever those two had going on, so if she had to choose being Carmy's Claire or his Syd, she would still pick Syd. Syd tried to force him to define his relationship with Claire so he would have at least some idea of how lame it was if that was what he was actually like as a boyfriend. The romantic relationship Syd wants with Carmy is not the one he has with Claire. What she was jealous of is that Carmy did pick being an unfulfilled not-boyfriend with Claire over being a business-partner-friend with her, but not their relationship or even Claire herself.
So yes, Syd wasn't jealous of Claire and Carmy's relationship and they are in fact in a beautiful platonic relationship. (for now)
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gingerylangylang1979 · 1 year ago
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This shit is not new
This is in response to the multiple posts right now about the recent articles that have come out and just general angst about this ship in the media.
This really isn't new. It's not unique to The Bear. It's not unique to Carmy x Sydney. It's not unique to slow burns.
I do think Mulder x Scully is the best example. Why? They are the ship that modernized shipping. The terms shipping, noromo, etc. come from that ship. They pioneered the modern "why can't men and women just be friends", "platonic soulmate", "it would cheapen the show", "the show isn't about romance" arguments.
Syd x Carmy are like Mulder x Scully 2.0 (with a slightly different flavor that I will get to). The X-Files was a huge sleeper hit with a cult following. From the first episode there was speculation about romance and people raging against it. The question was brought up in every interview and denied by the show runner. The intensity kept developing until finally they went canon. And then, only then, did the show runner change tune. Shippers felt they were being persecuted for even mentioning the ship. It was super intense.
I watched the show as a teen. I low key did ship them but wasn't involved in fandom so I wasn't aware of the shenanigans. But I know all of this from first hand accounts.
And here's receipts from media:
So, I know a big element is missing in this comparison. The race element is at play here. I'm not denying that. But I will say, I started with this example just to show it isn't just interracial couples that get this backlash. I could also mention Ted x Rebecca, but I don't think I need to go into them because they are current. Mulder x Scully started this and history is important.
I do think there is a special flavor of dislike for this ship because of race. I've spoken on it. The unwarranted hate for Sydney can't be ignored. The same has happened with Richonne, Ichabbie, etc. No denial here. But if you look at the overall history of shipping what we are seeing specific to media denial, media scrutiny, antis, denial of the ship until the very end, gaslighting, etc. is slow burn and shipping war 101.
There is no agenda from cast and crew to stick it to us. Their agenda is to maintain the element of surprise and tell the story they want to tell. There is no agenda from the media to do anything but get a story that gets clicks. There is no special denial of a romance unique to this one.
This is just how a slow burn plays out.
There are no slow burns that went canon and the show runner said, oh yeah, this is the plan before the end. If there is tell me, and I'll gladly correct. But, that just isn't reality. They will say the same thing every season until it happens, no matter what happens on screen in the meantime. And there is always some lame statement made about why they "suddenly" decided to make it a thing or a lame admission that it was planned. So basically, they lie. The lies may seem cruel but it's not personal. It's not some secret agenda to deny your fave romance and happiness. It's just showbiz.
All of this can feel personal in relation to the extent a fan is personally invested. And I think that's up to each person to decide if their investment is creating too high an expectation and too much drama for regarding fictional characters on a tv show. That's not on media. It's not on the actor, creators, journalists, etc. to determine and protect a fan's level of investment or engagement. Nobody has to read the articles. Nobody has to devote their time to fandom. It's a choice. And part of that, may be understanding that all of the media around a ship isn't going to cater to what you want or see and making decisions on what you see is the healthiest, most enjoyable way to engage or not.
Because feelings have been hurt, arguments have raged, lies have been told in fandom and media and it's not new, it's not personal. It just is what it is.
Mulder x Scully walked so Carmy x Sydney can run.
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reigndrop1ets · 2 years ago
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Okay, I started watching more of The Bear S2 today and I have THOUGHTS.
First, I wanna talk about Claire. It's so obvious she was added into the season to be a love interest. Sure, she's got a personality which some love interests might not have but compared to other characters in the show, hers is basic. Maybe that's the point though? Other characters in The Bear have a plethora of issues and Claire can easily be set apart from the rest of them, hence Carmy's interest in her (aside from knowing her from before). I'M GONNA ADD ONTO THIS IN THE NEXT ONE!!
Second, I understand why he and Claire's relationship is progressing so quickly. Carmy admits that he doesn't really have fun and never had friends either. Before Claire, there was Mikey helping Carmen socialize, but even then it was more for Micheal than it was him. Mikey acted as a sort of social lubricant (hate that word but it's true) for Carmen as they grew up. Michael died and Carmy receded into himself (yk what I mean), focusing on work instead of his social life or mental health. When Claire, someone he was close with back in the day, comes back into his life, he clings to her. Now, this is because she actually has a life outside of her career. She's got friends, she's fun to be around, and she can help people have fun. She's the embodiment of who Carmy never got to be, what he never got to experience. He gravitates towards Claire because she's been living her life to the fullest and Carmen didn't get a chance to do the same.
Third, I know a lot of Bear fans want Sydney and Carmen to be together. I'm still not sure how I feel abt SydCarm but we all see the chemistry between them!! If not romantic soulmates, they are 100% platonic ones. However, I can see why Carmen wouldn't be interested in being close to Sydney romantically or being closer to her than he currently is. Sydney met Carmen through his work as a Sous Chef and they bond over their love of cooking, their hopes for the restaurant. The foundation of their relationship is all work related. I admit, they have their moments were they get on a personal level with each other but mostly, they talk about work. Carmy used to work in a toxic environment and it traumatized him. The Original Beef is a much more positive place to be, but still, a contribution to his stress. So, I can imagine he'd want to be closer with his coworkers but not AS close as they could be. He's seen Syd outside of the kitchen, but it's only been to talk about work. Claire is someone from outside of work, from wayyyy back, and a nice change of pace.
Fourth, Carmen's priorities are ALLLL the way messed up. As soon as he reconnects with Claire, it was like Sydney didn't much matter. He made promise after promise to Syd, yet he never came through. I don't think I'll be able to get over how he COMPLETELY forgot about his plans to go tasting with her to help Claire move FURNITURE bro. In that exact same episode, he neglects to tell Syd, his literal business partner, that they were taking out the walls. Then, he ditches Syd again to deliver the wine license (?). Sugar was fully capable of doing this, but he probably felt bad for making her work sm, so I get it. What I don't like is how he made more plans with Claire instead of helping Sydney out?? Sug and Syd are literally carrying the restaurant on their BACKS.
Fifth, LET'S 👏🏼 TALK 👏🏼 SYD 👏🏼. My KIN, my GIRL, MY BESTIE IS STRESSINGGGG. She's supposed to be Carmen's whole business partner but she's handling most of the responsibilities that are meant to be shared between the two. It's becoming a real challenge for her because she's struggling to cook. Syd's overthinking everything and NEEDS CARMY TO DO HIS FREAKING PART. I wish I had more to say about her in that aspect but I don't 😔. However, I will say I love her relationship with food and how it's shown. The visuals during her menu tasting sequence were CHEF'S KISS 🤌🏻!!
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It's interesting Tina introduces Sydney to her son as "Jeff's friend" in episode seven (and that her son repeats her words literally saying "Hi Jeff's friend"). Had this been episode one when everyone at The Beef was just meeting Sydney that line would make sense. It'd fit with Ebra's "Carmen, there is a girl" and Richie's "Fuck is this?" and "sweetheart" and new fucking broad".
But by this point, Sydney has earned Tina's respect and affection. She even corrects herself calling Syd chef rather than Jeff. So, ways she could have introduce her that would make sense:
a) Chef/Jeff
b) Chef/Jeff Syd(ney)
c) Syd(ney)
So, not only is it an interesting way to introduce her but in my opinion no one else comes close to being categorized as a friend of Carmy's. Pete, Nat, and Cicero are his family, Richie is unofficial family, and everyone at The Beef are officially employees but more like found family. Most of them knew and worked for Michael for years (Marcus seems to be the only exception besides Syd?). And many of them already knew Carmy, knew of Carmy, or know his extended family. An example: Tina knows Carmy's mom from her Christmas party (and tbh probably from multiple Christmases) and knows Sugar from the times she used to come by The Beef (we know because she asks Carmy why she doesn't stop by anymore). A second example: it's confirmed Fak's known Carmy since at least Michael's 15 birthday because of the story Carmy tells about trying to break up a fight at said party. All of his family members (Sugar, Cicero, and Mikey) call him Bear at one point on the show, and Fak is the only non family member to call him by his childhood nickname. However, despite many at The Beef's direct and indirect connections to the Berzattos, I still don't think "friends" is the right description for anyone at The Beef.
I will die on the hill that is a Carmy/Syd romance, but even if you wanted to argue for their relationship being strictly platonic, it's significant that she really is his only friend on the show. And that title is significant because this man has no other life or hobbies outside of his career, his family, and now The Beef and all the people that come with it. Syd is the only person who comes into his life not connected to those things - his life in New York, his family, and his family restaurant. From the start, their relationship is separate from anything he's had or currently has, not mentor/mentee, boss/employee, not family - they're straight up equals, partners, friends. Ideally we get to lovers (whether they make it canon or not, we all know). I don't think either of them are aware of their growing feelings yet (Syd maybe, Carmy definitely not), but neither would object to the label of friends as of now. They're giving One night he wakes/Strange look on his face/Pauses, then says/You're my best friend/And you knew what it was/He is in love vibes to me.
So yeah, labeling Syd as "Jeff's friend" is interesting. To me, it's the writers explicitly communicating the nature of their relationship in a seemingly throwaway line.
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