#Sa mentions

[mx-ryder]

Some thoughts on Hazbin Hotel

I literally just watched HH this week, followed by binging Helluva Boss on YouTube right after. And my Dash is full of HH and HB stuff now. And the other day I saw someone posted their thoughts on the show, including one specific take that it falls right back under the typical "Sinners are bad but hey, we can fix them!" sort of trope. (I really don't know if I'll be able to find the post again, if I do, I'll reblog/link it here or something).

And hey, I'm not gonna argue that it doesn't, per se. I just think there's a bit more to it than that.

c.w for general religious trauma talk, SA mentions, drug use/abuse, alcohol use, addiction, gambling, probably other things I'm not thinking of

(Also please don't feel like you have to read this. It's literally just me rambling because I haven't been able to stop thinking about this topic all fucking day, so I wrote it down to get it out of my head. Obviously if you read it and want to comment/continue the discussion, feel free. Just please. Be respectful.)

Now.

All my thoughts on HH are very much colored by my past experiences with religion, US christianity, specifically. More specifically still, the sort of christianity that makes people believe that "home schooling" their kids, isolating and indoctrinating them away from anyone who might make them question it all, is the best course of action. I grew up bouncing from church to church, from home schooling co-op to co-op, all so my bio-mom could find the exact group to echo her own sentiments back at her.

Among the things I grew up believing were great ideas such as:

Sexuality is inherently disgusting, and something you should always be forcing down/avoiding/punishing yourself about. Masturbation, porn, sex before marriage, dressing "immodestly", and any sexuality outside of heterosexual were inherently evil and worthy of punishment. Sometimes that punishment was being assaulted, because really, she should've covered up, right? Girls, sometimes girls as young as 12-13 (if not younger) were villainized for wearing tank-tops and shorts, because they were causing the boys to stumble and immodesty was a moral failing on their part.

Drugs, alcohol, substances in general, are bad and wrong and using them, or heaven forbid becoming addicted, is a moral failing on your part. You are a bad person for consuming a drug, and therefore deserve to fall into addiction, houselessness, starvation, and/or abuse.

Poor people deserve it. Accepting help of any kind is leeching off good, hard-working people. Your worth as a person is directly tied to your ability to be a "productive member of society."

Any mental health issues are your fault, and are either because you don't believe in jesus hard enough, or because you're inherently broken and sinful and therefore unsaveable. There is no room for sympathy or empathy for anyone struggling.

There's a reason these are the same stereotypical archetypes you see in this sort of show. The queer sex-addict. The gambler. The "weirdo" who isn't like other people and enjoys "weird" things, or enjoys things "too much". Even just the party-girl character. Because these aren't just stereotypes. These are actual entire groups of people who are ostracized and vilified just for being who they were born to be, for making choices christians don't like, or for being sick.

And that brings me to Angel Dust. Who, by the way, I wish I could've been given a content warning about, because holy shit Ep 4 and Addict hit me really fucking hard. My friend recommended the show to me without having watched it, so I went in not expecting that sort of storyline to punch me in the gut out of nowhere.

Anyway! Angel Dust! Literally named after a drug. A gay porn star who flirts shamelessly with anyone and everyone, who proudly shows off his best films to his friends, who secretly hates his job, not because of the sex, as we come to find out, but because he's under the thumb of a fucking psycho who treats him like shit and actively physically, sexually, and mentally/emotionally abuses him. He's basically been trafficked, and hates that he doesn't have any say in what happens to him in front of the camera. It's a horrifying position to be in, and one that left me a little shaken up, tbf.

The take I'm mostly writing this based on is that Hazbin Hotel falls into the trite tropes of "rich white girl attempts to fix people who are below her" and specifically mentioned disappointment in how Charlie didn't try to argue that Angel Dust didn't deserve hell based only on his addiction or sexual past, but that she instead claimed that she could "fix him."

And I just . . . think that's a little bit of a black/white take.

For the first part, what would people rather she do? Put all her time, effort, influence, and power into trying her damnedest to help her people, who are being slaughtered by the thousands every year just because Adam is bored? Or sit at home and use all that time, effort, influence, and power to make rubber duckies like her father? She could just ignore everything going on, call it hopeless, give up, and ignore the suffering of her people. Would that be better? Would that satisfy this weird little "she's just a rich white girl with privilege" gripe?

Charlie is a rich girl. A princess. Someone with huge amounts of privilege, power, influence, etc. But you know what? She's also stuck in hell. She was born there, through no fault or choice of her own, and because of who her parents are, she is trapped in literal hell, with no hope of ever, ever ascending to heaven. She does not get a chance at redemption, because she was born to the wrong people. She is a young woman who was born into horrifying circumstances, living in a world that she frequently expresses disgust for (her frequent discomfort with sexuality, her disgust toward the cannibals, her dislike of violence, even necessary self-defense).

And she still loves her people and wants to see the best in them.

She would be completely justified in hating everything about hell, her life, the people around her, her parents, heaven, everything, really. She has every right to hate her entire existence, but she puts all that hatred for the system into her efforts to fucking do something about it. Why is that a bad thing, just because she was born into a position of power and authority??

And now on to Angel Dust.

Charlie never once makes a judgement call about Angel or his habits, his work, or his personality. She expresses discomfort with the sexual nature of his work (tbh wouldn't be surprised if she's a sex-repulsed ace), but she does not think he's a bad person because of his work. Nor does she think that he needs to stop doing his work in order to become a better/good person. When she tries to get him some time off, she's explicitly doing it because she wants him to have time to decompress and participate in activities at the hotel, not because she wants him doing less of his specific kind of work.

She never condemns his partying, either. She has a bar in her hotel! She defends him partying, right to heaven's face, because she knows everyone present has partied, everyone has enjoyed a drink with friends. There is no condemnation of his partying activities, and I don't think she ever makes it seem as though Angel needs fixing.

What I got out of that episode, watching Charlie passionately defending her friend in front of the worst fucking person in the universe, was that people do not need to be fixed, but some love and support can help them make better choices for themselves. Angel still has a good time. He still has his job (contract, y'know, but would probably be in the industry regardless). The only thing different about that particular night of partying is that he's out with people who care about him, and who he cares about.

Even Cherri, though she expresses some joking disappointment that he's spending so much time worrying about Nifty, doesn't actually seem that put out by it. She teases him a little, but leaves him to do his thing. And his thing is making sure his friend, who is less experienced at partying (and who is significantly smaller/more vulnerable than most other people), is safe and okay. His thing is defending his friends from an extremely dangerous person, at massive risk to his own personal safety.

And he didn't do any of this because he'd been "fixed" or because he'd "changed." He did it because, for possibly the first time ever, he has people around him who love and care for him, and who want the best for him. And who he loves and wants the best for in return. He said himself that he stays out of his mind on substances, allows himself to be drugged and assaulted, puts on this persona of care-free-crack-whore-who-only-thinks-about-sex, because he is trying everything in his power to dull the pain he's in. Because he doesn't believe he deserves any better.

And this, this is what Charlie is trying to show Heaven. She is trying to show them that there is nothing morally damning about alcohol consumption, or even drug use, sex work, or anything that makes Angel who he is. She's trying to show them that, with some love, care, and support, with a safe place to call home, with their base physical and emotional needs being met, people don't need to resort to the sort of destructive behavior heaven/Adam is condemning! People can choose to engage in these behaviors safely, consciously, and with people around them who want them to be safe and have a good time.

Then we get on to the idea that this entire episode ends on. Heaven doesn't know how people get there. They don't know what it takes to be "good enough" for heaven. Sera herself admits that Adam was just "the first soul in heaven," all but admitting that he's just there because he defaulted into it. (Though that does make me wonder, what about Abel? He would have died long before Adam, and considering how long Adam lived, and that there were plenty of other people around by the time he would have died, where were all those souls going??).

And Adam is the fucking worst! He is literally the worst, most selfish, violent, vulgar soul in the entire show, but he is allowed in heaven, for reasons no one even understands.

You know what the difference is between Adam and Angel?

Adam can't be fixed.

His behaviors are all destructive, not to himself, but to others. He insults, abuses, hurts, and kills with abandon. He made this weird, shitty deal with Hell and Lucifer because he wanted to murder innocent souls, because he was bored, and the rest of heaven doesn't even know about it. He has free reign to be an absolute piece of shit to everyone around him, damaging people left and right, and he will never face any sort of justice for it, because hey, he's already in heaven!

But Angel? Angel's behavior is all self-destructive. Again. He gets fucked up to dull his immense pain. He allows himself to be drugged and assaulted because he believes he deserves it. Because he's been told, for who knows how many thousands of years, that he's a whore anyway, so why shouldn't he be free to use for anyone who wants to take him? He has been beaten down, physically, emotionally, sexually, until he's a shell of a person who is struggling to find any reason to continue his shitty existence.

And he hurts only himself.

I mean, okay, he does piss off Husk sometimes, crosses boundaries/etc. But he and Husk pretty clearly fix that between themselves. There's no lasting damage there, and idk if anyone else noticed, but he stops that behavior pretty much entirely after that ep.

Angel is hurting. He is hollow, and hopeless, and trapped. And he does not need to be fixed, nor does Charlie ever attempt to do so.

All she does is reach out a hand, and say, "Hey, I see that you're struggling. This place is fucked up, isn't it? Maybe I can help."

Charlie is a flawed person. She takes her privilege for granted. She feels the immense weight of her choices, and the pressure of having taken responsibility for a people who may never want her help. She messes up, because somehow, she's endlessly cheerful and optimistic, despite her upbringing and the world she grew up in.

Charlie is flawed. But she's trying her fucking best. She isn't trying to fix. She's trying to help.

We all need some help, every now and then, don't we?

[asterias-corner]

tw sa themes/mentions

I remember it like it was yesterday. But to you, i was just another ex that was dramatic over some touch.

[what-even-is-thiss]

Sometimes I do wonder if men actually get sexually assaulted and abused at a similar rate that women do but a lot of them just don’t know that’s what’s happening to them

[fellshish]

The different and sometimes tiring types of reactions to the neil gaiman allegations

- ‘neil didn’t write good omens’ (he did and we simply have to learn to separate art from artist)

- ‘how dare you think about anything else but the victims’ (people can care about multiple things at once + these allegations have been known for months and months?? some of us have processed this)

- ‘how do david/michael/etc feel about this’ (it’s none of our business)

- ‘donate to victims of sa’ (sure if you can)

- ‘bdsm is fine WITH consent’ (it is)

- ‘everyone is innocent until proven guilty and i refuse to condemn him’ (go read the article / enjoy being blocked by me)

- ‘his writing was always Problematic’ (learn to separate art from real life victims of sexual abuse please)

- ‘his writing can still mean a lot to you without you being a bad person’ (yes. just try to avoid giving him money maybe)

- ‘it’s just terf propaganda’ (it really really isn’t. and fuck terfs)

- ‘reminder to prioritise your own mental health, step away from online spaces if you need to, and: you have no obligation to read the entire article if it’s too triggering’ (true. you’re still a good person i promise)

[drunkwithmouthwash]

Did you notice Jim went quiet for a second when Daisuke said that? Motherfucker saw his life flash before his eyes.

[anendtopursuit]

not to gush too much abt neil newbon's performance as astarion (and stephen rooney's writing for him) but like. he's discussed on streams before how conscious the decision to make him feel like he's constantly performing is (regardless of outcome; theatrical spawn astarion & operatic ascended astarion), and how stephen rooney leaned more into the whimsy and fun of the character based on things he saw in his portrayal (hence astarion progressively getting funnier and more charismatic through game development). but the thing that drives me absolutely mad tbh is the moments where all of it drops and he's suddenly so sincere, because it hits you like a truck to the face.

his voice going all soft and quiet and brittle when he describes cazador instructing his spawn to torture themselves. his mannerisms shifting from seductive and playful to a little more nervous. but the one that always gets me is in the graveyard romance scene, talking about what cazador has taken from him, how it was taken by force; "but he did take it," in this voice that's so full of sorrow that it almost sounds hollow, muffled by none of his usual pomp and theatricality, when even in cazador's palace his admissions of upset were sandwiched between attempts to brush it all off. dear god.

[cupcakeslushie]

Recovering your autonomy vs Completely cutting yourself off from your support system. FIGHT!

This happens sometime after the ongoing Kendra reunion comic, but not far enough along that the brothers have figured out how to navigate certain landmines.

Donnie is still re-adjusting to communicating his needs in a confident manner. Sometimes he gets a little too worked up, and lets the panic take over. He regrets the yelling later.

…The next morning

[usercelestial]

"omg he would never" "no he's a good guy though" "why haven't these women come forward before" "well she's known for being a liar so" "yeah but have you seen the things she used to tweet"

∆ trans women are women, trans men are men, and if you are transphobic, you are not a feminist, this post is not about "Male Violence" or how men are "inherently violent" this post is about people who do not truly have feminist beliefs and people who will do anything to protect cis white men from criticism while attacking any woman who comes out against him. at the core of this instinct is the automatic disgust + hatred people have towards women, even other women themselves. your favorite man is not protected from being a perpetrator of violence against women, your least favorite woman does not deserve said violence ∆

[threewaywithdelusion]

I wish more people liked Canon Nicky. Like yeah, he sucks a little bit, but that’s the point.

All the Foxes suck a little bit. They’re not perfect victims, they use slurs, they do bad things to each other. Seth’s a selfish homophobic asshole, but he saves Allison. Kevin’s a one-track-minded alcoholic who hears his teammate died and wonders how the team will keep playing, but he also gives Andrew a chance before anyone else does. Wymack’s lucky they didn’t have cancel culture in 2006, because some of the things he says are horrifically not PC. But he’s not some perfect savior of a coach. He’s a guy with a terrible past who decided to make it his life’s mission to help troubled kids. And if he gets it wrong sometime, it’s because absolutely no one in these books is 100% mentally well and they’re definitely not coming across mental health tips on TikTok or reading books about how to do better.

Nicky is terrible at boundaries and consent. It’s probably a trauma response to his upbringing and conversion therapy, but that doesn’t make it okay. He makes creepy comments all the time and he assaults Neil in Columbia.

I’m not excusing any of that. But Nicky isn’t only that, and that’s why he’s interesting.

He’s the one who texts Neil a million times a day, until Neil stops looking frightened every time his phone beeps. He gave up Erik and Germany to raise two angry teenagers who never reciprocated his affection. He had a relatively normal upbringing (religious trauma aside) and then got thrown into dealing with the twins and having to navigate 1) Andrew locking Aaron in the bathroom to get clean (is he being a good or bad guardian by letting that happen?) 2) working two jobs to pay for the house 3) Andrew being arrested 4) Andrew being put on meds that made him manic and unreliable 5) Aaron’s homophobia 6) Andrew’s violent threats and so much more.

When exactly did he find out Andrew had killed Tilda? Which of the twins told him? And did he ever wonder if Andrew would kill his newest guardian if Nicky messed up?

Nicky is incredibly selfless, brave, and patient. And he’s also pushy, kinda creepy, and incapable of understanding boundaries. He’s both. And I wish the fandom wouldn’t sanitise him, because I think that’s part of the point.

[a-heart-of-kyber]

*slaps table*

Listen!

There is something super sweet and healing and hopeful about Gale, "I was groomed and still don't realize it and had 'sex' with the Goddess of Magic via mental/spiritual/astral projection regularly. Also, I'm kind of addicted to magic." Deciding to approach you first to flirt with "You being all sweaty after battle is so fucking hot."

Because it's Real. It's physical. Yeah, it's horny, but it's the realization that the mortal realm can be equal to the godly one, if not superior, despite it being different. Like, he's not Losing something by not being with a God and he can heal.

[asterias-corner]

(Cw sa mentions) just need to write out my thoughts

The way i handle this isn't right. I dont know why i think it’s funny to get “dirt” on him. Im never going to forget how i felt feeling like a lost cause, how i felt opening up about jt and the tears that followed. I iust couldnt handle dealing with it, and i still cant, the way i have been handling it is childish, stupid, and immature. I feel the need to be overly s3xual to erase what he did, i need to do anything to get rid of his touch, his words. Talking shit about him isn’t a way to handle it, I’m a horrible person for thinking bringing him down is any better than what he did, and I’m sorry for myself for how hypers3xual i get, the need to replace what he did with something “better” is overwhelming, and fucking weird

i felt like i was going to throw up the more i thought and sobbed about it, the raw feeling of emotion and the reaction i had over that honestly horrified me

[goodluckdetective]

If you’re reaction to this Neil Gaiman stuff is to crow how “I always hated his work” or “I knew he had bad vibes” I want you to stop, and understand what I hear, which is “they deserved it”

“But no” you say! That wasn’t what you meant. You just wanted to-

What? Talk about how you always knew better? That you were above falling for the act? That you always knew something was off? You are good enough to know evil when you see it?

Cool. So they were too stupid to know better? That they fell for the act? That they should have known something was off like you? That they weren’t good enough to spot this coming?

“That’s not what I meant! I meant his fans!”

Some of his fans were his victims. So only they deserved it?

“Not his fans who were his victims but his annoying fans-“

That’s what you’re getting from this? That you can finally brag to those annoying fans about how stupid they were for liking his work because…. a monstrous level of abuse happened. Glad you’re enjoying putting those fans in their place with….a bunch of horrific sex crimes.

Anyway, people who are making this about Gaiman’s work or his characters have lost the plot, I agree there. But people making this about how smart they were, how they knew better?

Think about what you’re actually saying and maybe shut the fuck up.

[wolfertinger666]

fuck it, my black trans guy experience has been:

other trans people(especially fellow trans men) invalidating my identity because I don't conform to gender norms or whatever bullshit cope they can think of

being fetishized constantly cuz I present fem. even in conversations that aren't even sex related. been told I'm "an easy cheat for straight people" or a heavy fixation on my breast

seeing queers who are white benefit from including black queers in their talking points but in some ways excluding us or tokenizing us.

oh yeah and the extreme transphobes misgendering me and threatening me with corrective SA

but I've also had positive experiences such as inspiring other trans and even cis folks to stay true to themselves and basically express themselves however they want. i like being myself but it sure is scary sometimes.

[fellshish]

i can’t help but notice that a lot of the people who are trying to tell us what to do and what to feel clearly weren’t here when the neil gaiman allegations actually came out (spring last year). a lot of them aren’t even in our fandom. like is this just a moral outrage competition? purity posting for notes?

a lot of us have already processed the allegations (we’ve had months) and are in full support of the victims. and yes, we are also still in fandom. we’ve tried to get him fired, we’ve lived through near-cancellation, we’ve donated to victims of sa. we’ve also been sharing our fics and art and gifs and headcanons.

if you don’t think you can be in a fandom with a cancelled creator as ethically as possible (making sure not to support the creator financially) then don’t be in one.

to all the others: i’ll still be here as long as it’s my hyperfixation. sharing your fics and art and gifs and headcanons. 🤝

[syrisun]

the parallels between jimmy’s abuse of curly and anya don’t stop at curly being unable to move/protest. the entire crew believing he was the one who attempted the crash and him being unable to speak and defend himself reminds me of how starting out in jimmy’s pov we at first perceive Anya as incompetent at her job because she’s unable to speak out about her assault and pregnancy & we and the crew are left to make assumptions . I just think it’s very potent that we see curly lose his social power to mirror her. no one will believe you, and you can’t even try, etc etc.

[abyssal-ilk]

playing as a tabris warden and especially playing as a fem tabris warden is just a constant over and over gut punch. you're getting married but then you, your cousin, and several other women from your alienage are kidnapped during your wedding by the arl's son. you slaughter your way out of it to save your cousin and the other women, but there isn't a victory in it— you know there will be retribution for killing a palace full of guards and several nobles even though you were defending yourself and your kin. you're forced to leave your home and join the grey wardens without being given even a single night to recover. you know there will be a purge. you don't know if you'll ever see your family again.

you're taken to ostagar where you are the only woman amongst the grey wardens, and not only that, you are the only elf among them. you remember nessa, the girl in your alienage who was afraid of leaving because she feared what the soldiers would do to her after going so long without seeing a woman. your status as an elf and a woman are constantly remarked upon. you have no choice but to stay. you are fed darkspawn blood by duncan; the blood kills one man while he slaughters the other in front of you. you are supposed to feel grateful to have survived this.

and even later when you seek help from the dalish, what do you learn from zathrian? the same injustices that were inflicted upon you have been repeated over and over for centuries. what do you learn when you seek help from the mages? templars lurk in every corner, always watching, driving mages to the same violence you yourself committed. what do you learn in orzammar? to be a castless woman is to be not considered a person, who's only worth is the children she can bear for the same nobles who keep the castless subjugated. to be chosen by a noble is supposed to be an honor. why does this feel familiar?

AND THEN. what do you learn from the deep roads? darkspawn in all of their corruption are no different; you learn of the broodmothers. it is the same everywhere, no matter where you look. nothing changes. even your other party members, leliana and zevran, have their own stories. and you don't have another choice but to keep pushing on.