#Lestat has done some fucked up things

[thegirloffans]

Louis over here having full on dreamy hallucinations about Lestat sassily haunting his patchwork love life meanwhile Lestat is drowning in a pit of despair while Claudia's ghost haunts him as a never-ending reminder of all of his biggest regrets.

[this-world-of-beautiful-monsters]

drives me glass-eating batshit how Claudia and Amadeo were both teenagers rescued (or "rescued") from violently traumatic situations and taken in by paternal gentlemen vampires who taught them about the world and kept them safe and spoiled them rotten and loved them so so so much in profoundly unhealthy and dehumanizing ways. Claudia and Arun both entering the vampiric world as blank slates (like Claudia remembers her pre-turning past but we only get the barest details, it's hardly ever mentioned) and a wash of divinity, angel imagery and merciful gods. then as Claudia and Amadeo grew they started to pick up on the things that were off in their world and display aggressive behavior (Claudia's killing spree and Amadeo's The Shining moment, etc.) only to be physically punished for it. and then they experience the brutalities of life outside their maker's protection (Claudia under the floorboards and Armand under Rome) except she's able to come back home hardened and confront the realities of what's been done to her while Armand never gets that chance, he's stuck with the Children of Darkness, he's stuck deifying Marius, he's stuck clinging to ritual and tradition and all the things Claudia defies like breathing.

and then they finally cross paths and they're inverted mirrors of each other, Claudia the grown woman desperate to escape her teenager's body and Armand the grown man who wants to be loved and precocious and fascinating like he was as a teenager. Claudia being able to effortlessly pull off the veneer of innocence that Armand has to work so hard to maintain and she's not even grateful for it. she's got the youth he wants, she's got Louis's love, she's more free than Armand has ever been, she fought back against her Maker and got away with it, it's not Fair, it isn't right. so Armand punishes her with it, subjects her to the same cycle of objectification and dehumanization and violence that Amadeo went through (because it could be Worse right, he could be Donating her right). and when that's not enough to make up for everything he's missing he fucking kills her in an elaborate show just like she killed Lestat with the elaborate show that was Mardi Gras, only his writings recording the process damn him just like her writings damn her, their need to leave some mark of themselves above all else consuming everything.

and after killing her Armand spends years dragging around with a Louis who hates him just like Louis dragged around with a Claudia who hated him. he's the good nurse for Louis the way Claudia was and he competes with Lestat's ghost the way she did and he watches a fragile life with flowers growing from dead things all come crashing down in ash and dust like she did, all because of what he did to her. and at the end of the day they're both fucked-up kids whose most commonly used last names stem from the fathers who fucked them up and they could have lived each other's lives and in some ways they almost did.

[sharonccrter]

I still feel the fight in 1x05 was a mistake. And I only say this because the writers clearly didn't mean it to imply that Lestat was this irredeemable abuser and some gotcha moment for certain fans to proclaim Loustat shouldn't be together. The writers saw it as a way to show Lestat's cloud gift; they clearly never saw it becoming what it became within the fandom. I mean, this is a show about vampires.

And this is not me saying what Lestat did wasn't fucked up because it very much was. However, I once again see people putting too much of their own morality onto a show about vampires. I see it all the time now, everyone wants to put characters into "good" and "bad" boxes, and that's all their allowed to be; people don't want to stan "morally grey" characters; there has to be an apparent "victim", and a "villain" and that's all these characters can be.

That's simply not the story the writers are telling, and it certainly isn't the story Anne Rice was trying to tell. The revisit in 2x07 didn't change that much. However, it continues to strengthen the idea that not all is as it seems. And if the writers revisit the scene again in season 3, it's because there is more they want to say about what happened. There is more to the story than what we've seen.

The idea that they shouldn't revisit it again because the fans have already decided what happened is ridiculous. I need you all to realise the genre you're watching and the books it's based on. Unreliable narrators and things not being as they were first presented are the heart of the story Anne Rice was trying to tell.

There are no good guys in The Vampire Chronicles; they are all century-old vampires who've done terrible shit, who've all been victims, and predators in equal fashion. Some of you will enjoy the show going forward a lot more if you're willing to accept that.

[shesnake]

I wanted to know your thoughts on this but do you think it's fair to say either Louis or Armand are abusive in their relationship? Idek if this is a valid angle to view the characters from because I guess they're all monsters or whatever but a part of me thinks that it's kinda lukewarm to refuse to engage with the complicated themes of the show, which abuse is featured heavily and pretty clearly imo. This isn't aimed at you btw. Something I noticed is people tend to use some of Louis's less favorable moments to justify the violence he experiences. Like that post about Armand just matching Louis energy in ep 5, most of the notes are taking the stance that Louis is a cold, unempathic pimp who doesn't care about sa victims, that Armand genuinely is completely right when he says he is always cleaning up after Louis that he was only worried and tenderhearted and Louis escalated in the worst way and that after Louis said that he deserved everything that happened after. And I may be biased but to me that is so fucking crazy. To me it seems like fans, specially nonblack fans, have zero empathy for black abuse victims, actively enacting abuse culture even. But idk if that is a too reactive view. I don't want to say Louis isn't flawed because he is. But I mean we are watching the season about Armand getting Claudia killed on purpose and somehow people are still like Maybe Armand didn't do it, maybe it was all Louis, maybe Louis really asked for it. All of it. I think there's a problem there but idk I kinda feel a little crazy too. Btw disclaimer I fuckin hate Lestat this is not about comparing Loumand/Loustat lol

hi! and wow there is so much to discuss here...

I think it is fair to describe the actions of both Louis and Armand towards each other as abusive by definition but it's always important to remember that it is Armand in the position of greater power over him. Armand is older, stronger, owns dominion. He can walk in the sun, manipulate memories, and live without constant debilitating hunger for blood - all of which are things that impede Louis from being his own person outside of Armand.

Louis also faced this same predicament when he was with Lestat, but unlike Armand who uses his own innate powers against Louis, Lestat mostly used his social advantages of whiteness, wealth etc in addition to withholding key knowledge about vampirism to keep himself in control and Louis dependent on him.

and sure Louis can lash out all he wants! He can mock Armand's sexual trauma (trauma which Armand himself already gets them both to fetishise... but that's a whole different conversation...) he can hit back when Lestat hits him but when he's with either of those guys he is always going to be the victim. Nothing shitty he does to his partners, or to Claudia, or to Daniel, justifies what is being done to him by these men.

There absolutely has to be anti-blackness involved in any argument that says Louis deserves any of this. (Of course Armand as a brown South Asian man is not immune from fandom racism but his treatment is racialised in a different way that is also a different conversation). Any negative behaviour from a Black man is going to be seen by racists as exponentially more aggressive than it is, especially the cross-section with those you mentioned who aren't engaging with the complicated themes of this show exploring abuse.

They can see that Louis yelling at Armand is bad, but don't notice that Armand is being manipulative. They can see that Louis stabbing Lestat that one time during sex is bad (and still sexualise it), but don't notice that Louis is disassociating in every sex scene he has with Lestat afterwards (because they're too busy sexualising it). They can see that Louis making Daniel upset is bad, but don't notice that Daniel has been leveling dozens of racist and homophobic micro-aggressions at him since episode 1.

Armand got a few minutes to tell his tragic backstory in Louvre, Lestat had 2 or 3 different scenes in season 1 to recall his own. It's just been words. Meanwhile racists erase Louis' experiences with trauma because they never had enough fucking empathy for him to begin with to even register it happening to him! on screen! in real time! right in front of us!

And yeah Louis and Armand and Loumand are incredibly complex and compelling, and I do enjoy seeing Louis' moments of cruelty towards Armand! But he's never going to win against him in the game Armand built for him.

And in terms of Claudia, I do think that Louis failed her, as he has always failed her. And is responsible for her death in that regard. But that failure involved letting those other two fucking sharks eat her!!! I personally haven't seen anyone pushing the blame completely off Armand and onto Louis but I wouldn't be surprised. This week I've more pissed off about people levelling it all on Armand and think of Lestat as an unwilling participant.... this is of course the blonde white vampire show....

anyways sorry this is so long! thanks for the message this was really interesting to think about.

[nalyra-dreaming]

to put all the cards on the table... (and now that we have that teaser... oooofff). i read the books, but i want to put my obsessive detail lover glasses on. anne is really nuanced in her writing, so yes i totally get lestat is not how louis described him (more or less 👀), but just in a vibey way. to make a specific list, what is that 20% that louis got wrong in your opinion?

That Louis got wrong? :)

Hmmm… So first off I do not think that what we saw of Lestat in that video (aka the rockstar persona) is how he looked when he was with Louis in NOLA.

Then again… Surprisingly close, isn't it?^^

So to get into this I need to explain my view of this a bit. Kidnap your ask, if you will^^

Louis describing Lestat: strands of hair down the sides of his face, unkempt a bit wild hair (at times at least). If his hair isn't done in some kind of fashion (opera, french pony tail etc)

I said it before, I think these strands down Lestat's face are indicative of Louis' POV (own) memories.

Which brings us to this small excursion on the subject. There's the evil step-mom bob, when Claudia comes in, and which is repeated outside in 1x05:

Hair lengths aside, we now know that Lestat was just as bloody as Louis from the trial revisit (see below), which was supposedly the truth, but in any case "no scratch on Lestat" has never made much sense. Meaning the force-feeding likely didn't happen either...

.... and the drop... well. Supposedly did. Even though he is quite clean again?

Because... that is still very far from what we (supposedly) saw as the "truth" of Lestat's bloody face in the coffin room just before, which we were shown at the trial:

I think the evil step-mom-clean-and-glorious-looking Lestat is Armand's tampered-with version.

Because... going through this because I think we got Louis' POV and actual memories of Lestat more in the beginning of season one.

There are a lot more instances of the "strands down his face"...

Btw, see this? Of what was used by Daniel to prove an "error" to the tale in 2x08? To prove Armand's manipulation?!

Right after the scene... he has them again:

Even Claudia's POV has them!

Even when she absolutely hates his guts:

I think every scene we saw with Lestat either in made up hair or with the strands down his face are ... "as real as it can get in a tale".

And the other scenes... the perfect blond hair ... is not.

Which brings us finally back to your actual question:

What is the 20% Louis got wrong?

And... I'm not sure Louis really got him that wrong?! I think Louis misunderstood some things, didn't know a lot of things, and Lestat fucked up others. They didn't talk enough. And sometimes love makes you desperate. They knew exactly how to wound the other.

And Armand... meddled with the tale. I said it before, the "train scene" cannot have happened as shown. The hotel likely neither.

I think every scene where Lestat is an "evil bitch with perfect hair.".. is a meddled with one. Given Armand's goal of influencing the tale? Namely making Lestat seem as bad as possible, while being unable to hide his own fascination with him? Makes perfect sense to me.^^

And there's actually not that many of them either. The outside of episode 5, the tractor salesman, the train, the paranoia driven one in 1x07 has strands again, while he does not have them the scene before and through a lot of the remaining last episode of the first season.

As such the little comment in 1x07, "the king's hair has betrayed the king".... takes on a third meaning, imho - not only a quip by Louis on both the "hair" on the floor and "heir" (Claudia)... but also that the "hair"... betrays the "king"... the leader - the coven master vampire meddling.

Layers, upon layers, upon layers.

So what did Louis get wrong?

Not that much actually, I think. But... some of the key scenes were not his. And those were therefore, in the sense of the words, wrong.

[avelera]

What if Louis/Armand in AMC IWTV is meant to be torture... for Lestat?

Basically... what if the whole relationship between Louis and Armand, going back to when Armand first encountered him, is a deliberate "fuck you" to Lestat by Armand, and that is his chief motive for having the relationship at all? For keeping Louis in a gilded prison, for making Louis his love at all, for allowing the interview, and for little things like telling Lestat that Louis was injured, but not telling him where or how to help or passing on the "I love you" to Louis, and perhaps effectively keeping Louis away from Lestat ever since in a game of keep-away, as the most effective way to torture Lestat that Armand has in his possession.

I want to preface this theory by saying it's probably a bridge too far. That's a lot of premeditated malice to ascribe to Armand. I do think there was and is love there between Armand and Louis as seen in the show.

But at the same time... this might surprise some show watchers, but book Armand is an ancient creature of malice who uses his boyish looks to appear soft and gentle when he is anything but. He's over 500 years old and he spent 200 of those years running the Paris Children of Darkness, a Satanic organization that gave his life meaning and purpose during those years.

And even with show Armand, we've seen him capable of playing the long game, pretending to be someone else in Season 1 as he played Fake Rashid, with motives for doing so that are still inscrutable.

We've already seen as of ep 2.6 that Lestat broke up Armand's Paris Coven, the Children of Darkness. But I want to get into why Armand might have been lying about how he was fine with it, that he saw it coming for years, that Lestat was just the instrument of his own desire to move on from that squalid situation.

What if he wasn't fine with it? What if he still isn't fine with it? What if the long game, ever since, is to take everything away from Lestat that Armand can get his hands on, including Claudia, but especially Louis?

Well, to give my evidence for this I'll have to delve into the books a bit, so proceed at your own risk for spoilers.

Here's an excerpt from The Vampire Lestat, with Armand speaking to Lestat after the events in Paris, when he forced Lestat to testify in the trial against Louis and Claudia, because it was always Armand's plan to put Claudia on trial so he could get rid of her and have Louis for himself. For Louis to be buried alive in punishment so that Armand could save him and they could depart together:

"[Armand] leaned forward, and his face transformed itself as it had done years and years ago, as if his rage were melting it from within. 

“You, who destroyed all of us, you who took everything. Whatever made you think that I would help you!” He came closer, the face all but collapsed upon itself. “You who put us on the lurid posters in the boulevard du Temple, you who made us the subject of cheap stories and drawing room talk!” ...

...“We had our Eden under that ancient cemetery,” he hissed. “We had our faith and our purpose. And it was you who drove us out of it with a flaming sword. What do we have now! Answer me! Nothing but the love of each other and what can that mean to creatures like us!”"

Armand plays the long game. Armand is a creature of spite and malice, at least through Lestat's eyes in his own autobiography.

Armand was not fine with the Paris Coven being dispelled. He was not fine with Lestat's generosity or the new purpose given to him by Lestat by establishing the Theatre des Vampires. He loathed it.

And after this above exchange with Lestat, Armand picked up Lestat and flew him up high above Paris and dropped him. Armand did that to Lestat in the books, it wasn't Lestat to Louis (though that could simply be a change for the show, or perhaps even reinvented as a deliberate act of revenge on Louis' behalf for what Lestat did to him, and not some sort of mind alteration by Armand but... we'll see.)

It would be a hell of a twist to end the season on. Arguably, a twist akin to the reveal of Rashid-is-actually-Armand at the end of the first season. That this has all, all of it, since the 1940s been one long revenge play against Lestat.

Again, I think it's probably a bridge too far, too cartoonishly evil, but...man, there is that but lingering in my mind. Because this is the sort of thing Armand would do. He's done it before in the books with the trial of Louis and Claudia being one elaborate pantomime to punish Lestat and Claudia and get Louis to himself.

And it's been bothering me ever since the reveal at the end of S1 that we're in an AU where Louis/Armand stayed together instead of breaking up right after Paris like they did in the book. And if I was writing this canon divergence AU, it would be a hell of a thing to make the pivot point be, "No, Louis and Armand didn't break up because Armand wouldn't let Louis go because all of this has been one long elaborate fuck you to Lestat for destroying the Children of Darkness and robbing Armand of the purpose he'd had in life for over 200 years." 70 years of revenge by comparison? That's nothing.

[redwinedulac]

after surviving the hell that was the got fandom where people would ask him to his face about his genitalia or not even refer to him by his name, it pains me to know that jacob is once again apart of a show with a disgusting fandom and this time as the LEAD.

the way he feels such genuine comfort and love on set is how he should feel from the fandom as well and the key word here is: genuine. he doesn’t know what these people really think about him. these people have met him at events, WENT TO HIS CONCERT, smiled in his face, and each time it was more to fulfill their lestat fantasies (because he is treated as an extension of sam) without actual care and reverence for him.

during his concert fans on twt were right to call out the audacity of throwing the tvl shirt on stage (which was done by these exact racist plantation fans btw). and whether he smiled about it or not it was HIS concert, a raleigh ritchie concert, and some of his music-only fans didn’t even know the lestat reference in the first place. jacob has separated his music and acting for a reason and he shouldn’t be pigeonholed into a box by fans. people who complained were silenced and written off as being “jealous” and “fandom drama” when it’s like… it literally was not an iwtv event? why is it some inconceivable want regulated to a “woke” notion that people would ask for JACOB’S TIME to be his time? it was his first major concert in about 5 fucking years?

honestly, i really don’t think it’s too much to push for amc to not allow these people around him anymore? these people use him to boost their online clout and engagement and simultaneously dismissed the antiblackness towards him and louis for years and now that it’s finally caught up to them we have the fake notes apologies, “i didn’t know about slavery i’m european” and all the bullshit we’ve seen before.

for season 3 amc really needs to go back to keeping things professional between journalists and the cast, (and vet these journalists btw because some of them are also side-eye worthy) close the sets, and protect the cast. the lack of any type of boundaries during season 2 is how we have gotten to this point. sigh.

[whatshehassaid]

“I LOVED HER.” “BUT SHE DIDN’T LOVE YOU. Not like he did. Not like I have”

That isn’t Armand saying Claudia didn’t love Louis. She did. What he’s saying is that Louis was so fucking focused on PINING for Lestats love, superimposing Lestat on Claudia AND Armand that Louis refused to accept love from them. Because he didn’t want Claudia. He didn’t want Armand. He wanted Lestat and he couldn’t have him (whether it be because Louis convinced himself Lestat was bad, or dead, or because Louis is in denial). He tries to make villains out of Armand and Claudia.

“Speaking of mistakes…”

“Vintage Lioncourt.” “I’m not Lestat, Louis.” “Okay….”

“Picked ANOTHER ONE over ME”

“It was NEVER ABOUT ME. Another chapter in the FUCKED UP ROMANCE OF YOU TWO”

“If you want to escape this cage of empathy I’ve trapped you in all you had to do was ask, Louis.”

“Imagine me without the burden of her”

Louis can’t face the fact that he was IMPLICIT in what happened to Claudia in Paris. She wants a companion in Madeline cause she’s not getting in from Louis.

I feel like we may be going the route of Armand and Claudia (probably immediately after the trial and before her death) bonding over their experiences. Not just to do with Louis and Lestat… but their childhoods… being raped… being used… being turned so young…

I’m not 100% on this but if they do include the head swap thing (which is still fucked up, I’m still upset at Armand for that) I feel like Armand will frame it or believe that he can save her if he can just give her a woman’s body to match her mind. And I feel like Claudia will jump at the chance. Again, not 100% with that and it’s STILL super fucked up.. but I think if that happens Armand (AT THE TIME) would believe he was helping her. Like how he “helps” his victims. How he was never helped as a human child and as a vampire. They relate to each other because they’ve never been someone’s first choice… and I think the moment Armand hears her say those words (“it was never about me. Another chapter in the fucked up story/romance of you two”) he’s gonna realize how much they really have in common and feel empathy for her.

It makes a lot of sense with how Armand’s character (especially in the books) is. He has a thing about consent (it’s a bit twisted because you could argue he assumes he knows what’s best for people… and acts accordingly thinking that he’s helping them) But he needs people to consent at least somehow. Even if it’s coerced.

That’s also why I believe after Paris… Louis initially agreed to have the memories of his role in Claudia’s death suppressed. He couldn’t handle the guilt that he didn’t care enough to save her. Armand just took it to the point of constantly suppressing the triggering memories. Plus on TOP of that I’m 100% sure Louis is schizophrenic and it’s causing blackouts.

Armand wasn’t really lying when he said that “I protect Louis from himself.” He WAS being honest. It’s in a fucked up way, but I believe it’s true.

And then with Daniel, that’s a whole other can of worms because I don’t think Armand wiped his memories right after San Fran. I’m starting to believe it wasn’t just Louis telling him to keep Daniel alive. The minute Daniel admits he finds Armand fascinating… and tells him “you can read minds right?” Alluding to the fact that he ISN’T LYING. Daniel is intrigued by Armand… and that immediately catches Armand’s attention. We’ve only seen up to Louis attacking Daniel from an unbiased POV (the tape recording). The rest is MOSTLY FROM LOUIS. Who had had memories taken whether by Armand or by the blackouts… and remember he has a habit of trying to make himself look good in Daniel’s eyes. He tries to convince himself constantly that he’s not a bad guy - but in reality…. He’s done some shitty things too. So it wouldn’t surprise me if some of that was also lies to Daniel. “You’re a liar Louis. Whether you know it or not.”

Something happened in those 4 days with Armand and Daniel that I’m not sure Louis realizes. He may come in and out of actual remembrance where he KNOWS Armand and Daniel fell in love… and he uses it against them both… and then goes back into not knowing what’s happening.

I have a feeling we’re getting the trial/claudia’s death/a reveal about the blackouts etc/the fire from ARMAND. Hence the “imagine me without the burden of her” line that Louis says. He would NEVER in a million years admit to saying that. Definitely not to Daniel.

The Merrick storyline plays into this here. Finding Claudia’s diaries… realizing that Louis really treated her badly and that she hates him for it. And Louis not being able to take it.

I also feel like Lestat and Armand have teamed up in Dubai without Louis or Daniel realizing it. They may be trying to help cure him with the help of Dr. Bhansali.

(Also, devils minion definitely happened in the past… you can just see it in the way Armand sometimes looks at Daniel - and in the books even though he was a stickler for rules… his only exception has ALWAYS been Daniel. He loves Louis, he wouldn’t have put up with any of this if he didn’t… but Daniel? Daniel is really the love of Armand’s life. And Lestat is Louis’. I need them boys to figure this shit out - and with the fact that Daniel wasn’t listed in the Talamasca victims folder? Even though he was attacked, held hostage and tormented… means he is probably in ANOTHER folder - *cough* ARMANDSPARAMOURS *cough* I hope they have Daniel find his name in there cause THAT is gonna be J U I C Y.)

[three--rings]

I'm really disturbed by the fact that I'm seeing people post S2ep8 of IWTV still talking about Lestat as an abuser and Louis as a victim, period end of conversation.

Because I feel like we are explicitly told in ep7 and 8 that that is not the case but some people haven't adjusted their thoughts yet.

Now this is a show explicitly about the unreliability of personal accounts and what we see on screen is often proven not to be how things happen. So, obviously things are always up for debate. But.

We are shown the extended scene of what happened before Lestat flew Louis up into the sky to drop him. In S1 we saw that scene from Claudia's perspective, and she just heard crashing and shouting, and then saw Louis thrown through a wall by Lestat before the whole flight thing.

Ep 7 we are shown Lestat's version of events which are Louis physically and verbally attacking him over and over, slamming Lestat into things, while Lestat begs him to stop, warning him that he will fight back and he's afraid of hurting Louis, and Louis merely eggs him on. Then we get Lestat turning the tables and throwing Louis through a wall.

Now, obviously this is Lestat's version and probably a bit biased to be sympathetic to him. But Louis admits Lestat's version of Claudia's turning is the more correct one than his account and he admits to portraying Lestat intentionally as a villain in the interview, so...well I think the show is telling us that our impression from S1 is at least not the whole story.

Ep 8 underlines this with the scene with Louis and Lestat when Louis apologizes for the way he acted to Lestat in the past, saying "I tried to make nights awful with you. I wanted you to suffer."

We also see him throw Armand into the wall in this episode, which I get people feel Armand deserved, but I feel like the conversation around that has been weird as well. Like, people talk about that being a sign that Louis is stronger than Armand, as if physical violence is impossible from someone who is weaker than their victim. But this is also another instance of Louis using physical violence against his partner when (justifiably) angry.

Look, abusive relationships are complicated. Mutually toxic ones even more so. Reactive abuse is a thing, when an initial victim becomes violent or abusive in response to abuse they've received. It's complicated, and I speak from personal experience.

But I very much feel like the show is SCREAMING at the audience that things are not simple and that no one in this scenario is blameless, ESPECIALLY not Louis. He's not blameless in the case of Claudia. He's not blameless in the destruction of his relationship with Lestat. He's not blameless in his relationship with Armand, for all it's built on a lie, because he entered it to fucking make Lestat mad for god's sake and that's a terrible foundation for a relationship.

Raglan James says Louis is the one to really be afraid of. Louis at the end of the season with his "I own the night" speech. Much of the second half of S2 is ABOUT this.

The entire heartbreaking scene with Lestat at the end is Louis owning his part of the responsibility, and that's huge. Lestat accepted his responsibility and apologized on stage in Paris, and now Louis is as well.

So yeah, I think some people need to rethink their attitudes when they call Lestat Louis's abuser and Louis a battered wife. I read that and I go wait, we're not gonna interrogate that at all?

I of course feel at this point I have to put in a bunch of disclaimers about how this is not an anti-Louis post or trying to excuse the violence done by Lestat, blah blah but honestly some people who can only see things in terms of Good and Evil and Guilty and Innocent are never going to appreciate that kind of thing anyway. I just don't know why those people are watching this show, which is entirely about nuance and complicated interpersonal relations that are messy and resist easy analysis, BY DESIGN.

[stellarxdeath]

I've seen a handful of posts lately saying that the writers of IWTV have butchered Claudia's character and/or wrote her poorly, things of that ilk; lamenting how dirty she was done by the skill of the writers. Now that I'm all caught up and s2 is finished* [ sob ] I... Have some choice thoughts on this perspective.

Number one being that Claudia was explicitly doomed by the narrative the moment she'd been introduced to it. Her death is referenced but not outright stated initially, moreso implied, but the writing makes no mistake in telling us that Claudia, the Child Vampiress, will die. She's not potentially out there somewhere, she's not in hiding, she is dead, and she will never be able to tell us the whole of her truth beyond her diaries.

The second issue that the "IWTV Writers bad" crowd seems to forget is that, Even with the diaries, this is ultimately Louis' story, and the gaps in perspective are inevitably filled by him and eventually Armand, but never Claudia. She was disregarded because time and time again, Louis disregarded her for Lestat, and then for Armand; She was betrayed by the coven she professed her love for with a horrible, terrible, calculated eagerness because of Louis coming in and fucking with the coven dynamic; Regardless if that dynamic was healthy or not.

What Claudia and Louis had was precious, but it was also deeply, deeply flawed. He can effectively be blamed for her death, drawn all the way back to the riots incited by his choice to kill Fenwick; Was Louis justified in doing so? Yeah, abso-fucking-lutely, but this doesn't change the fact that his choices directly damned her to die.

Third is the claim that Claudia went from lethal and independent to desperate and weak? When? No?? Again I'm loosely paraphrasing some posts I've seen and attempting to take them in good faith; Claudia, from season one, was very interested in finding other Vampires, she was hellbent on it, and unfortunately it lead her to Bruce aka "The Motherfucker."

Her attempt to take Louis with her to Europe in s1 was in service of that goal. Claudia wanted to escape Lestat, she wanted to save Louis, and she wanted to find her people. She even tried to make her own Vampires despite being a fledgling! She has always wanted community, and I'd go as far as to say she was so strong because she could only rely on herself for so goddamn long, Louis being trapped under Lestat's thumb even after Lestat came crawling back in the later half of s1.

I understand that Claudia is a fan fave and people very rightly wished for her to live - the thing I have a gripe with is that some are taking this love for her and making it more important than the story itself. Interview With The Vampire is a tale of regret, trauma and abuse, a story of how memories are monsters and to be a Vampire is to be damned to the Odyssey of recollection, and if you don't survive, your memory will always inevitably be twisted over time. A life in eternity is a life full of pain.

The fact that people are so upset over the unfairness of her life is the intended effect; You are supposed to be upset that she is doomed, the writers of IWTV did a fucking fantastic job of making you feel that way - however, blaming the writers and crying "Bad writing" over the intended reaction feels just a tad silly to me.

As another post put it: Louis loved Claudia so much, but it was never enough. Everyone in Claudia's life except for Madeline betrayed her, her vampyric rebirth was the bandaid to a shitty vampyric marriage, she was denied her own life and Armand the Ancient fucking Coven Leader did nothing to save her; so much so that she was a goddamn Sacrifice so that Louis may live instead. Disregarded. Doomed. Damned. The injustice is meant to piss you off, I beg of those who think the Writers fucked up to simply sit with that feeling. Sit with the injustice. In the end, it's all any of us can do.

it was not finished oops* more opinions on the way

[skywalkerrenthusiast]

Plz plz plz someone talk to me about how Lestat dragged claudia back home the same way his dad dragged him back home. I've been thinking about Claudia a lot because of the newest ep -and also because she's my bby girl- and I also rewatched season one, it hit me like a train but by God does the cycle of toxicity in the family go on.

Lestat left, he was almost free and his dad swooped in and stole that from him. Dragged him back to where he was unhappy to maintain some kind of fucked up family quo and then Lestat does the same thing later by dragging claudia back home because he knows that even though louis told her to leave that he'd just be miserable.

And lestat doesn't wanna go through the last seven years again! So he drags her back to keep their fucked up, has already fallen apart little family fantasy going for just a bit longer. (A small part of me does wonder if maybe he also did it because he knows what claudia would find in Europe or I guess it's more like who would find her. But thats just an idea I'm chewing on. Lestat is FAR FAR FAR from perfect and there are so many ways he could of done better with and by claudia but at the end of the day she was his child and they did have some years of peace and I stand by the fact that he DID love her. He just has no idea how to stop being his parents child.)

AHHHH SOMEONE RELEASE ME FROM THE FATHER(MOTHER)-DAUGHTER BRAIN WORMS THEY GIVE ME!!!!

[lesbians4armand]

on the technical side of things, maybe armand is intersex. he was often described as being beautiful like a girl! he couldve been born with a boys body but as he got older and hit puberty, perhaps he had a hormone disorder he didn't know about/coupled with sexual trauma/being turned he never really got to go through a full hrt puberty.

i know armand slept with numerous vampires in his coven, but he DOES have a tendency to not fuck human beings. maybe vampires CAN get pregnant, but they need a living counter part to make it work. immortal children are banned under vampire law, so i can see why female vampires aren't having children of their own (for fear of their child/them dying/the child being unable to progress physically or mentally) but wouldn't it just be like armand to be pregnant and not know until it's too late to do anything with?

or he gets pregnant and daniels the first to recognize the symptoms? the eating, the mood swings, how feral he's gotten during sex. i assume it would be jarring to wake up and find your vampire boyfriend projectile vomiting the 70 units of blood he gorged on 3 hours prior.

INTERSEX ARMAND!! YES!! The vampires of the vampire chronicles have always defied gender in its social ways but to have it completely blur binaries of biological sex is so so good, they already have so many differences to their biology and anatomy its not too much of a stretch.

And you’re right, armand is always described as being very androgynous, and bringing that along with his limited memories of his youth and the trauma that he went through, he could very well be intersex and not even realise it, though lack of memory or some other factor. I love exploration of Armand’s gender identity a lot due to his lack of self identity in general, I’ve considered genderfluid armand before and even transgender armand (t4t devils minion… real) but intersex is a new concept to me that’s super fascinating.

(shout out to that one fic where armand IS alice because he can literally change his gender and sex at will btw been thinking about that since i read it… very good very delicious very gender)

On logistics of vampire specific pregnancy, i also agree that one participant must be a living human, i doubt that vampires can get one another pregnant (both being dead things, as well as the law to not create vampire children). I think male vampires who do sleep with human women (cough cough, lestat) would be able to get them pregnant, and that human men can get vampires pregnant too. Someone has to be alive to create life in this scenario.

Who knows if these pregnancies would be entirely viable without specific requirements. Would the fetus need blood in-utero if half-vampire?? or is the baby just human as its created with living dna regardless? how does the vampire reproductive system work?? if their hearts still pump blood and their lungs still breathe, and their brains are still alive, their reproductive system may still be functioning even if other processes shut down? Iirc the VC universe later established that vampirism is kind of like a ghost-alien parasite infecting a dead human body but keeping some parts of it living. maybe this does include reproduction, I think all grounds of logic went out when we first got to aliens.

In the tv-show universe (in which im basing this crazy au), the vampires can have sex (though they could not in the books), so this implies a working reproductive system.

Anyway yeah! I think intersex Armand COULD be getting pregnant here. Admittedly I’m not super familiar with intersex people and how this would work but I’d love to learn more and it’s definitely a way of getting mpreg to work here. I think im too scared to commit to omegaverse so this is a very fun dynamic and solution.

On to the other parts of this ask as I have gone on a bit, Armand does seem the type to neglect his own wellbeing to the point he doesn’t realise he’s pregnant until months along when there is little to be done, but I also think he wouldn’t want anything to be done. He might not have very good experience or track record with children or kid-vampires (see claudia), but he would love the evidence of love from daniel. It’s a part of daniel and a part of him, I think he’d be obsessed with that, that they can bring something that is alive and good and both of them to the world.

The idea of daniel realising like “oh my vampire boyfriend is actually very strangely, almost like he’s ill, but vampires can’t get ill! It’s weird it’s like when Alice was pregnant with… Oh! oh that’s it. okay.”

thank you for the ask this was very interesting.

[mermaidsirennikita]

Louis de Pointe du Lac, as originally written, could be regarded as one of lit's most famous "also rans", someone who was originally positioned as Thee Tragic Figure of the series, only to be almost immediately superseded both in the readers' and the author's minds with Lestat. Like, you know Louis because of the original book, but Lestat is the one everyone talks about, Lestat drives the rest of the series, Lestat has all the best lines.

And the movie, as much as I personally don't like it, only sort of dug this further into the pop cultural understanding of the story. Brad Pitt is at his most "I am relying on pretty" boring and sulky; when there is a performance, it's largely annoying. And Tom Cruise... I mean, it's literally nothing next to what Sam Reid does in my mind, but it was at least very off-brand for him at the time, and he was doing SOMETHING, and he (and Kirsten Dunst) have the most iconic Moments, the camp, the arguably most memorable part of the movie (the very end with the Sympathy for the Devil cover playing us off).

So it's honestly SUCH a testament to the innovation of the show's writing and the brilliance of Jacob Anderson's performance that Louis has been reinvented, not only as a compelling protagonist, but as a character that is EASILY as complex and multilayered as more traditionally antiheroic/villainous types like Lestat and Armand and Claudia. He's more than the beautiful, tragic object of Lestat and Armand's affections, he's more than the guy telling us the story.

Louis is self-loathing and self-aggrandizing; he's victimized by Lestat, and he manipulates Lestat, very aware of his own emotional hold over him (might we note how much agency Louis had over Claudia's turning, and how Lestat in no way would've done that if not for Louis... and that act was arguably one of the most selfish in the series, if emotionally understandable). He's controlled by Armand, yet we get hints that he's actually quite dangerous and perhaps in some sort of self-delusion about just how dangerous he is (and Assad certainly plays Armand like he's nervous as fuck about Louis knowing the truth--and I don't think that's JUST about the possibility of Louis leaving him once he finds out).

Louis tells himself that he loved Claudia more than anything and that she was his "spark in the dark", when we see that in reality their relationship deteriorated over time and continued to do so, even after the person who was seemingly a wedge in their relationship was vanquished. We see hints, perhaps, that Claudia was no more the ideal daughter in his mind than Lestat was the ideal lover.

And that last scene in the premiere? When we're not sure who the "you" is? Sad and kind of horrifying, too. Because like--what will Louis do to Claudia to further his own love and obsessions? Who does Louis prioritize more--Claudia, Lestat, Armand? Maybe none of the above. Maybe himself and what or who he thinks will stave off his own loneliness, his need for love and validation and, yes, power.

None of this is a criticism of the character. The show already did something SO good and SO smart by turning Louis from a white slave owner to a Black man with money and social standing, still so held back by the laws and environment of his day. Vampirism gave him agency, yet the show, in season one, showed the potential for Louis to still be the perpetual tragic victim (in episode five especially). And maybe they'll still slip up and do that.

But increasingly, with the reveal in the s1 finale and the s2 premiere, I think we're getting the implication that the thing Louis could be protecting himself from mentally (with some help from Armand--I don't think Louis's memory issues are all Vampire Magic, though) is something horrible that he did. A choice he made. Because Louis does have agency, and the narrative allows him to be someone with conflicted desires and a complicated sense of self. Someone who doesn't love PRETTILY. Someone who is manipulated and manipulates.

Like, I've joked about him being this kind of like vampiric Helen of Troy because of the allure he holds for powerful figures like Lestat and Armand, but I also think it's so powerful to explore the way that Louis uses that appeal and ALSO makes fucked up decisions on his own because he is... into being adored, frankly. Even if the people who adore him also hurt him. He gets caught up in his own romanticized retellings of his life story, whether heartfelt or tragic, because in those retellings he can pretend that he had no choice, he had no ability to say otherwise.

But like--Louis could have stopped that woman from being decapitated, potentially. Louis didn't have to walk away from human affairs. He chose to do so, just like he chose to beg Lestat to turn Claudia. Just like he chose to deny her Lestat's true death.

And I think there's like, an attempt to reckon with this in the unreliable narration of the books, but I also think that this is so dependent, in Anne Rice's version, on spinning to Lestat... That Louis's culpability and untruths are overshadowed by his Everything. Here, the story lets us soak in Louis's mind, and Jacob Anderson's performance really seals that. I find it so smart.

[nightislandnoveltymug]

actually, proper answer now that i'm awake and have had some time to percolate lol. best thing armand did!

i should say this is kind of a tie for me because the person armand becomes with daniel is always going to be up there -- he didn't let him die, he gave daniel what he wanted, but more importantly he told him, and showed him, that he loved him, and just in general in their time together he allowed daniel to see so much of his real genuine vulnerability and cared for him and worried about him so much and that fucks me up!!

but!! the thing i actually wanted to mention is his homes! (this is maybe cheating a little bit because it isn't something he did, it's something he does, but whatever.) one of the things i love most about armand is that he's always creating these stable places and central points for everybody to congregate on. while a lot of the others are sort of nomadic and don't stay in touch and you don't really know where they are, he is always (as he says) "a canker in the very eye of the world". he's easy to find, he stays in one place and he uses his resources and his power to create these stable, lasting home bases and then opens his doors to others. he creates stability and then shares it in a way that really nobody else does.

and i think it's very interesting because this sort of stability is a character trait that (i think!) maybe most people would first and foremost think to associate with elders like maharet, or marius, when in actual fact, the truth is that neither of them has ever done that -- for their own disparate reasons they've always been highly reclusive, and have protected their own stability by staying out of touch with the rest of the vampire world, not opening their doors, and for the most part not helping anyone or intervening in anything in any way.

there's something fascinating and honestly poignant about like... armand, maybe subconsciously, running a household according to an ideal which (imo!) is based on marius, except that marius has never actually done that. not for vampires. and so in actual fact, this is something that armand has innovated; this actually comes from him, and is coloured by his experience with the covens (which marius has never shown anything but disdain for), and perhaps even beyond that, by his experience with the sense of community in monastic life (which really ditto).

i personally suspect that rather than praiseworthy, he probably sees this as ultimately pretty self-serving on his own part, because he has this longing for community that drives him to create these places, so he probably just sees it as something he does so that he won't have to be alone. and also, from the way he talks in late canon you get the sense that he rather sees himself as trying to atone, and as trying to emulate those who are better than him. when in fact he's doing something that nobody else is doing, and in many ways (imo) behaving more like a leader of a community than any of the characters that everyone else thinks ought to lead, like marius or lestat. not because they couldn't, but because neither of them has ever had the resources, capabilities, patience, and willingness to create something like that and then open it up.

and for a character who's been so lost, and has spent so much of his life feeling lost, feeling abandoned (and i think, right up until present day, still feels that way really), and has spent so much of his life looking for something to anchor his life to, without ever having the luxury of truly finding it, and having to just sort of go on anyway, keep living anyway -- for that character to be a stable anchor point for everybody else is something that really really gets me about him, maybe especially because i think he isn't fully aware of it himself.

[nalyra-dreaming]

I have seen quite a few people state that if the season 1 episode 5 fight isn't resolved to their satisfaction by the end of this season they are done with this show. And my resolved, I mean the drop having not happened at all. And maybe I am the cheese that stands alone, but I guess I just don't get it? I admit I am rather new but I have read up to book 5 and I get that it seems out of character for Lestat, especially considering that it had happened to him, but we are dealing with monsters here so even if it did happen the with the drop, I don't see that as a dealbreaker for this show. I know that the episode was quite triggering for people. That I totally get, especially as I have had to deal with violence myself. But in terms of this show and these characters as monsters in toxic relationships, I didn't find it to be as egregious as people think, especially if we get confirmation that Lestat didn't walk away as clean and unharmed as it appeared he did. What am I missing with that? I gather you have a long history with these characters and books so maybe there is something major I am really missing.

The thing is...

for some it is totally OOC for Lestat to be shown doing this at all, and the DV that was shown tainted it all for them. Because for others... Lestat became the big bad white abuser™️ there, and the sheer mention that it would be revisited and that the tale might not have been as it was shown... ended in accusations of racism, abuse apology, and so on. I wished I was kidding.

Episode 5... divided the fandom. The fact that they always intended to revisit did not mean shit, what the actors and writers and producers said was ignored for the most part, I actually did a rant post a while back about that, which blew up into a big accusation spree wrt me.

And... here we are, as predicted, with Armand having meddled, and the tale... a tale. A story. A misremembered and flawed story.

I have been pointing out the discrepancies for ages. I got a lot of hate for that. I have been called things. There's people screenshotting my page and ranting about me alllll the fucking time.

I'm just pointing that out to illustrate that this is a high emotions topic.

High, high, HIGH. :))

There will be those who will be unhappy with what will happen, for one reason or the other.

There is nothing that can be done about that, the show does its own thing and it has done so from the beginning.

Those who will not like it might leave. That's fine.

Those who continue to love it (like me for example^^), will stay.

Ultimately, that is all there is to it. :)

The books are old, emotions are connected to them. Not everyone likes what the show does. *shrugs*

[rapha-reads]

IWTV rewatch

Season 1 episode 7 [The Thing Lay Still] - part 3/3

- Okay, the triple confrontation Daniel/Louis, Daniel/Armand and Louis/Louis is long but there's so much to say, I have to quote it entirely:

[Daniel] "Well, isn't that neat and tidy?" - THANK YOU DANIEL, I know I can always count on you to point out the flaws and holes in the fabric of Louis' recollection.

[Louis] "'There was a ship. We did get on it.'

[Daniel] 'Yeah, I read that, the first 50 pages. Not exactly the, uh, adventure-of-our-lives feeling I'm feeling.'

[Louis] 'It was a traumatic escape.'

[Daniel] 'Yeah, but she didn't say that explicitly. […] But, um… there's a feeling that she hated your guts there for a while. Why is that?'"

Trust Daniel to always see the little thing that would be inconsequential to anyone else.

[Louis] "'I was haunted by my brother's death, by the abandonment of my sister, by the murder of Lestat, I…'

[Daniel] 'Murder? What murder? It was an act of mercy. You didn't kill Lestat. You spared him out of some fucked-up idea you had about love.'

[Louis] 'Love? I bled him like a pig and waited for the death rattle.'"

Oh, Louis. You are so good at lying to yourself. Good thing Daniel's too much of an excellent investigative reporter to let you fool him like you're fooling yourself. Notice how Louis looks as Daniel undoes all his lies and smoke mirrors? Like he's still trying to cling so hard to the story he's told himself for the past 80 years, like the lie is the only thing that keeps him upright, like if he admits the love, admits he wanted to save Lestat, that would completely undo him and there would be no going back?

[Daniel] "You were shot point-blank by an alderman. You were dropped a thousand feet and survived. You torched Antoinette just to make sure. Where does the trash go, Louis? You take the trash down to the street, some guys show up in a truck and they throw it in the back, and then, they drive it out to the middle of nowhere, right? No. They take the trash to the dump. And having lived two blocks away from the dump just outside of Fishkill, New York, with my first wife, I can state, with authority, what else you'll find there. Rats. Big fucking rats, the size of Kevin Durant's sneakers. Enough blood in them to bring back the dead. Especially one in a trunk with locks on the inside. You knew it, Louis. You had to. The biggest rat eater of them all."

Thank you for bringing back Moonlight Sonata! Haven't figured out yet if it's intra or extradiegetic tho. I love its presence in this episode. It's my favourite piece of classical music (I know, very original) and it's so gothic par excellence.

Mention of the first wife, Alice/Armand, no, I will not get down from this hill.

I love how Daniel's theory posit Louis as having done some planning for himself outside of Claudia's and even Lestat's, with the trunks locking on the inside and the rats needed to revive.

[Rashid/Armand] "'This session is over.'

[Daniel] 'How many days in the Islamic year? How many names are there for Allah?'

[Rashid/Armand] '355 and 99.'

[Daniel] 'Why does a 200-pound bouncer pass out after he sucks him off, and you, a wet T-shirt away from 130, doesn't even blink?'"

Ha, Daniel said 'okay who the eff are you and why am I smelling bullshit'. Meanwhile Armand said 'oh shit we're getting too close to dangerous waters and Louis is about to lose it, better reassert control'. But also, Muslim!Armand. Definitely. Not a throwaway line, not just pretence. Rolin Jones I'm counting on you to not fuck this up.

[Louis] "'I couldn't burn him.'

[Daniel] 'But Claudia could.'

[Louis] 'No', she couldn't.'

[Daniel] 'She stuck a pen in his neck. She recorded his last words in his own blood. The girl did not have a fuckin' problem tossing him on the grill, okay?'"

And Louis' wall of lies is breaking and shattering… And the pebbles of the zen garden, his other big trauma, don't help either…

[Daniel] "You cursed her into the darkness. You chose Lestat over her time and time again. You don't need a memoir, Louis. You need a hundred sessions of EMDR. You know the shit they put soldiers through when they see one of their platoon buddies get blown up in front of them?"

Say it, Daniel! These messy vamps need therapy.

Making jokes to avoid the sheer anguish in Louis' face, voice and body language, both in the 1940 flashback (the image of Louis holding Lestat's body and yelling is tattooed on my eyelids) and in 2022 (Louis sitting in his zen garden hugging and rocking himself, eyes screwed shut, trying to block Daniel and Armand's voices and the memories lives rent free in my mind).

[Daniel] "'144 years and you're still Louis the Pimp, paying a whore to sit in a room and talk with you. 'Cause why? You got some story you wanna tell the whole world about yourself?'

[Rashid/Armand] 'When you hear it you'll be ashamed, ashamed of what you say to him now!'"

Please don't hold back, Danny, do tell us what you think exactly. But hey, Louis needs to hear it.

The fuck are you talking about, Armand… Also notice how agitated he is? Feeling protective of Louis, or feeling like he's losing control of the interview, the interviewee and the interviewer all at once?

Love Armand taking off is gloves in the background. So subtle, so crucial. And then the lenses.

[Daniel] "'This is the same shit that happened in San Francisco.'

[Louis] 'Not exactly.'

[Daniel] 'How is it any different, Louis?'

[Armand] 'This time I won't save your life. Louis can sometimes act out. I protect him from himself, always have. Stopped him that night in San Francisco.'"

Oh, hello, Armand's decided to play Superman. Aaaaah, Armand's orange eyes, I love them!!!

Can we talk about Armand's infantilisation of Louis? "He acts out, I protect him from himself"… Like a child that can't regulate his feelings and needs to be put on time's out. The manipulation is deep and multi-layered, it's not just the memory alteration. Notice how Louis is pretty much dissociating, staring at the grey wall, face slowly becoming inexpressive and voice returning to flat and empty, from the moment Armand started telling off Daniel?

[Daniel] "'You were there.'

[Louis] 'You don't remember.'

[Daniel] 'No, I don't remember.'

[Louis] 'What was that you said about memory? 'A monster', was it?'

[Daniel] 'But I saw you standing in the sun.'

[Armand] 'As we age, the sun loses its power over us. What's a mediocre star to a 514-year-old vampire?'

[Louis] 'Daniel Molloy, I'd like you to meet the vampire Armand, the love of my life.'"

One, don't be too cocky, Louis, there's plenty you don't remember about that night too yourself.

Two, and we've come full circle again, the monster memory making itself fully known after lurking all season long.

Three, shut up Armand, the Sun is not a mediocre star, it's part of the entire reason there's life on this planet, show some respect. Sun deities are some of the most frequent deities around the globe. You need to come back down to earth.

Four, all the books being out of reach to Louis, another way Armand's exerting subtle control.

Five, "love of my life", BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAGA *deep breath* HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAAAAAA, that line kills me every time I hear time. Why you lying Louis, stop fucking lying all the time. Sorry, Armand.

Daniel seeing them side by side and hearing that stupid line after listening to Louis ramble and compose poetry on the spot about Lestat for the past week or so: "hm. I sense bullshit of the highest degree. Time to destroy that whole tower of lies one by one.".

Aaaaaaaaaah, that was such a rich and intense episode!!!! What a grandiose season 1 final!!! So many different elements that have got to be revisited by other perspectives to get the full painting. So many seeds planted for season 2 and even season 3!! The writing is flawless, the acting is exquisite, the music is gorgeous, the costume, set design and stage direction are masterful. I am in love with this show.

ep1 | ep2 | ep3 | ep4 | ep5 | ep6 | part 1 | part 2