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tofixtheshadows · 15 days

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okay, if you're open to discussion, here's my view on why i think your mithrun take is somewhat reductive - prefacing this with yes, i understand you're talking about thematic positioning and not individual character motivations or goodness/badness, and no im not a particular stan of him or a kbms shipper or anything, if that helps you take this as discussion in good faith. (anon because i'll admit all the "ugh everyone who disagrees with me DOESNT KNOW HOW TO READ" does discourage from directly engaging!) yes, the elves are imperialist and yes the canaries are the primary arm we see of that in the story. yes, To A Point the violent manner that they, including mithrun, approach the problem of the dungeon is a reflection of this - it's not a coincidence that kui put this character ON this team. but when the discussion of it comes down to mithrun as the "representative" of this is where you lose me. in certain moments you could say he Acts as that, but it's not really the whole story of what his character is about or how he fits into the overall picture. multiple key moments are when mithrun notably acts AGAINST what the rest of the canaries would do, choosing to put (some amount of) trust in a tallman - we can have different reads on how much trust it is, but the effect definitely is that their approach is given a chance when normally the canaries do not allow that. the moment of asking kabru what he wants to do and following after laios, and Especially the moment of giving laios the go-ahead to try and defeat the demon, very much coming into conflict with flamela over it - in both of these scenes the other canaries represent the normal elven imperialist approach, and mithrun deviates from it. sure he thinks he regrets it a few minutes after the second one (because it did look like it failed, and because he's not exactly completely anti-imperialist either) - but in terms of what his character represents in the story, those moments are crucial to the ultimate "happy ending", and they're important TO the anti-imperialist theme that mithrun, the one with more personal reasons for being in the dungeon rather than simply being a canary & carrying out the empire's will because it's their job like the others, ISN'T acting on its side the whole time.

See this mentality is a little puzzling to me, because it treats my + others' speculation on the threat of imperialism in the story and Mithrun's role in it as if we created some sort of strict binary? As if he represents only this one singular thing, and doesn't share that role with anyone else, or that he needs to be condemned for it, etc. I don't think they're all passing around a "who represents imperialism and who subverts it" stick.

I mean, the story isn't very interested in that, is it? I believe in meeting a piece of media where it's at, which is why I'm not trying to hashtag cancel anyone over liking the elves or whatever. Dungeon Meshi is a story about ecosystems and food and hunger. It is very aware of the forces that create the situations around hunger, but ultimately it is mostly interested in food as the great leveler. We all need to eat and we all deserve to do so, even the people we might have considered enemies an hour ago.

The Canaries all get a seat at the literal and metaphorical table, even though, textually, they represent a world power whose monarch says, on page, that they are going to continue to monitor Melini and the people involved (this is a threat). Another story might not be forgiving of this. But Dungeon Meshi is not trying to be a political thriller, though as I've said, it is very aware of these things.

I, personally, am interested in the way Mithrun's story arc functions. If I talk about Mithrun, it's because he is a main character. Fleki, for example, is not a main character. Neither is Flamela. The Canaries are an antagonistic force (and not in a traditional "evil that needs to be defeated way", but antagonistic nonetheless!), but Mithrun is literally the representative of this force as the only one among them given a focus. And also because he is the captain of their squad. Even Flamela is only vice captain. Mithrun's motivations drive the Canaries as an entity in the story the same way his orders as their superior officer drive them as people.

So I am mostly interested in talking about violence, and to do that, I would be remiss to not touch on the circumstances that empower that violence. I cannot pretend like Mithrun does not arrive in the dungeon as the military officer of a first world power whose squad has the ability to arrest (and potentially execute) anyone they want, or that their success won't spell a de facto takeover of the region.

Does Mithrun care about that? No. I mean, I don't even think the other elves really care about that. It's kind of a moot point. They have a genuinely good reason for being in the dungeon and doing what they do, but they are still dangerous.

So when I touch on imperialism, which, again, is textually a part of the background of Dungeon Meshi, what I mean is: Mithrun's actions serve imperial interests regardless of his personal feelings, and they align with the threat of imperialism because oppression is inherently violent. That is where the comparison comes in.

If I were writing some sort of thesis on colonialism in Dunmeshi, I would say that the way Mithrun literally objectifies people- grabbing Kabru, ignoring his consent, using him as a projectile, brutalizing Thistle and Marcille- are physical manifestations of that inherent violence. The complacency of the other elves- their very punch clock villain natures- also serve the interests of imperialism. They're all in it together, they just disagree sometimes on the method. If Mithrun had gotten his way, the elves would have taken over the dungeon.

You are right that Mithrun comes into conflict with the other Canaries, and this is because Mithrun barely cares about sealing the dungeon. His one desire is his quest against the demon. This superficially aligns with the Canary's overall mission, but he will jeopardize that mission, the way he jeopardizes lives, for his personal goal. I don't really consider this an anti-imperialist metaphor even if it does eventually lead him to go against the Canaries' interests in trusting Laios. It's good he does that. It fits with the overall theme of disparate peoples uniting for the great leveler of hunger. Because, crucially, Mithrun agrees to it when Laios insists that he can defeat the demon. He isn't swayed by anything else. I do also think it's important that the one time he doesn't escalate to violence represents a moment of cooperation among these groups of people. We can say that Mithrun's self interest is better served by community than by state-sanctioned violence (and I do) but it doesn't cancel the rest of it out.

I'm also going to have to disagree with how much he trusts or respects Kabru. I would love if Mithrun did either, but the more I re-read the manga the less I'm sure of that. I think he sees Kabru as a useful tool. Again, I do not say this as a condemnation. I think Mithrun is nearly incapable of caring about anything else before the end of the story: I think his desire for the demon, his helpless hatred and self-immolating revenge, is so big that it blots out everything else for him. It's a tragedy. Mithrun is not entirely a rational actor, the way that someone in the grips of a debilitating addiction isn't.

You are free to disagree with me on this. I think I have an accurate reading on it, but I realize there is a lot of wiggle room.

My personal conclusion is that this

is a very long joke.

It sets you up to think that Kabru got through to him, that they are united against Laios, that they might have even achieved some level of camaraderie after their bottle episode.

Then Kabru and the Canaries show back up, and Kabru is ... handcuffed.

I didn't notice this the first time I read the manga! Kui does not draw any attention to the tiny magical cuffs, and the deliberately awkward way he holds his wrists for the next ten chapters didn't really hit for me until I had gone back over it. At this point I think it's supposed to tease how much Kabru is cooperating with the Canaries and how much of a threat he'll still poses to Laios.

It did not hit me until a second read that the punchline to this little arc is that Mithrun agreed to Kabru's idea because he had decided to use Kabru as bait. This is the equivalent of staking Kabru out to lure Laios and the others so that they'd let their guards down. Kabru looks very put out by it, he's still handcuffed, and he's got the surveillance state bird keeping him in line. This is not the situation of a guy who is trusted and respected by the person who put him in this situation. In hindsight, it almost makes Mithrun's agreement a joke in itself. "Oh, you wanna talk to Laios? Sure. Let's go do that. Hold still."

It recontextualized their time together for me. Made me notice how interested Mithrun was specifically in what Kabru had to say about this Laios guy.

You can kind of see the gears turning in his head. He correctly deduces that Laios is closest to the dungeon's heart. Therefore, reaching Laios will take him right to the demon. I don't think he actually cares about what Kabru wants. After all, Kabru says he wants to talk to Laios, and Mithrun doesn't let Kabru do that. He doesn't want to try Kabru's methods. He barely seems to think about Kabru at all.

We are treated to a three-chapter sequence of Mithrun and the other Canaries cornering a group of people they intend to arrest, interrogating them, intimidating them, and then Mithrun, especially, escalating the situation to near-lethal violence. Marcille releases the Winged Lion because she is menaced, talked down to, terrified, and injured. Even the other elves are appalled by how brutal and erratic Mithrun acts.

And that's what Mithrun's story is to me, actually. It's the very dark spiral that pain can send you down. It's about how his obsession is killing him. How it's keeping him from forming meaningful relationships. How it hurts the people around him and causes him to act cruelly. He cannot be reasoned with before he crashes and burns. If he had grown or changed as a person at all before the climax, his character arc would be less impactful. He has to tear through everything to get to the demon, look the demon in the face and be told point blank that he doesn't matter to it. He has to put all his energy into this path of violence to show how utterly impotent and self-destructive it is.

Dungeon Meshi understands the violence we all must do as living creatures. The inherent selfishness of killing and eating in order to survive, or fighting to protect yourself. It doesn't condemn that. It doesn't condemn the violence you do when you feel backed up against a wall either. But it does not reward this. Mithrun's all-consuming desire for revenge- and it is revenge, this is functionally a flailing quest for revenge even if he also wants to be finished off as a result- is as poisonous to him as the demon's bottomless appetite was to it.

Mithrun does not once stop to help anyone else during the climax. All the other characters converge to work together, even to put aside their enmity (like the elves and the orcs) to try and stop the threat. He doesn't turn away from his single-minded pursuit to help anyone, protect anyone, or heal anyone, though it's obvious that he could have done more good fighting by the others' sides rather than throwing himself at the demon over and over. Even the idea that he might help someone- the moment where he slaps Kabru out of a panic attack, but only because he genuinely wants to punish him- is treated as a joke.

It's only after all of this has occurred, and left him utterly empty, that Mithrun can stand up again as a new person. After he's looked into that yawning void straight on and realized what it meant to pursue it, where it was leading him. He gets up again because he agrees to share a meal. And because he agrees to help feed others.

Rage doesn't serve you. Community does. That's where his happy ending comes from. And maybe this is not the most thorough exploration of even this single topic, but I don't think I'm being reductive.

If I seem frustrated, it's because people have turned me into a ridiculous strawman because of these ideas, and then spent months shadowboxing that strawman while calling me a dumb pretentious cunt over it. This is often very funny, but even I have a tipping point. Good night.

#Dea's anonymous friends #Dea answers #dungeonposting #I took adderall for the first time right before this ask appeared. hi.#I would have written all of this without it ... probably #IF YOU SAW THIS BEFORE I WAS DONE WRITING ... I HIT SOMETHING ON MY KEYBOARD OML #thank fuck it didn't delete everything or I would have died #it is 1:30 AM #musings with Dea #I'll probably never make this rebloggable because I don't want to be adversarial to the asker #and I'd still rather make a formal post about these ideas without any connection to my personal bullshit

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dollypopup · 5 months

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yes yes, yeah yeah, blah blah 'Colin didn't see Penelope as a woman in S2 but Monopoly Man Plot Device did in S3' okay

I think we're all forgetting that Colin Bridgerton is miles and away better than Mr. NPC for this reason, in fact.

1: the 'I have given up on women (romance with women)' 'I am a woman' 'You are Pen, you do not count, you are my friend' is actually a really beautiful reassurance of Colin affirming his friendship and appreciation of Penelope OUTSIDE of romantic or sexual expectation. Which is RADICAL and wonderful. He loves Pen because she's PEN, not because she is a means to an end for marriage or a romp. Penelope is important to him and that he cannot give her up or bear the thought of never talking to her again. Yes, she found this hurtful because she wants to be an option, but

2: I actually think this will be the way that she realizes that being seen as a 'woman' is not enough. Debling is in his 30s, a man with a title and money and he says the right things and he courts her and he thinks she's pretty and it's NOT ENOUGH. She is not content in simply being seen as just a woman.

the entire purpose of Polin having interactions with other parties is to prove that it isn't enough for them. They require and desire and crave and NEED the emotional intimacy they have with each other that they can't get from anyone else. Because only with each other can they truly be themselves and unmask and be appreciated for the full people they are

because what Colin did, what he said, proves that he will forever be the better option. sure, maybe he didn't see Penelope as just a 'woman'

but he sees Penelope as a person

and that is infinitely better than anything Lorax Understudy could do in S3

#polin #anti debling #some supposed 'polin' peeps in this fandom out here with the backbones of jello #colin bridgerton #penelope bridgerton #colin may not have seen all of who penelope was (the same way penelope doesn't see all of who colin is) but in his not seeing her #as JUST a romantic option #he comes to appreciate her in ways that are not colored by those expectations #he appreciates penelope with NO expectation #and that is BEAUTIFUL #because there are a lot of men who see a woman and just put her in one specific box #and then don't stop to think that they exist outside of that expectation #colin comes to see her in a romantic light AFTER acknowledging her personhood and importance to him outside of it #and that makes their connection so much deeper and more meaningful #i am a woman second and a person FIRST and the fact that colin recognizes that about penelope is important to me

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