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nightwingsgypsyrep · 3 months ago

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Ok so I’ve been umming and ahhing about making this post for a while. I’ve always kinda planned on it, but seeing these tags on a previous post of mine (no hate to this user) made me want to post something now. It’s also gone 3am. So it’s not really going to be very clean and tidy, and will probably be a bit rambling, but I can always post a ‘tidy’ version another time.

So! Tackling Dick Grayson’s Romani/GRTSB heritage (warning: it’s a long one)

So, as usual, a few disclaimers: 1) I am not American. 2) I myself fall under the GRTSB umbrella - for clarity, I am from the fairground/circus so a Showman, but my family were simply ‘gypsies’ before getting involved in that in the Victorian period, so I use gypsy/traveller/Showman for myself. I also speak Romani and grew up in the culture and on the grounds. I’m not just talking out of my arse, I promise. 3) I do not pretend to have read every comic. However, this post will be based in things which DC have published (yeah I know it gets retconned every two minutes but hey, I’m working with it), even if some of it is more speculative/Headcanony, it will all be canon-compliant/what makes sense based on my own experiences. 4) That being said, everyone who does in some way fall under the GRTSB acronym will have different experiences and opinions, and all are equally valid and should be respected. 5) I use the term ‘gypsy’ a lot. Where I am from, it is not a slur, but is used almost a catch-all phrase for GRTSB people, by us. We also see Dick use it so I’m going to. I personally don’t mind if people use it (so long as they don’t use it as an insult) but not everyone will feel that way, so it’s always better to ask individuals. 6) this post is intended as a fun exploration of a character whom I relate to based on our shared heritage (when it’s really rare to find characters like that). I’m not trying to dictate to you how you should interpret Dick’s character. You’re welcome to different opinions and interpretations - this is just one of mine! :)

So, first, what is GRTSB? Well, it’s an acronym which covers all aspects of the gypsy/traveller umbrella. It is used in British legislation. It stands for Gypsy Romani Traveller Showman (aka fairground and circus) Boater. Under British legislation, only the first three (Gypsies, Romani, and Travellers) are considered an ethnic identity, whilst Showmen and Boaters are considered a cultural identity.

This is absolutely FULL of problems and has been hotly debated for years, with different people identifying in different ways. People who share the same/very similar ethnic heritage (i.e. siblings, or cousins) can have completely different points of view on what they identify as. As such, don’t take it as gospel - it’s more of a guideline than anything. Especially since a) these groups often intermarry, meaning that someone can be multiple at once; b) if a Showman stops travelling with the fair and settles, they don’t become a non-traveller, because it’s in your blood, not just a job; c) people can trace their heritage back past a particular group - e.g. my own family (circus and fairgrounds aka Showmen) can be traced back to at least the 1600s, before fairs were really a thing - at the time, they simply identified as gypsies. They didn’t stop being gypsies just because they changed their job/founded a circus/fairground. As such, many in my family identify primarily as a gypsy or traveller, and a Showman secondarily, whilst others do the opposite, or identify as just a Showman or just a traveller/gypsy. Like I say, this classification is not perfect, and is hotly debated, especially at the present time.

So, now, onto the subject of Dick Grayson. I included the tags above mostly because of the ‘tell me you don’t know a character without telling me you don’t know a character’, because, firstly, rude. secondly, the poster makes reference to the Golden Age. And yeah, obviously DC aren’t going to make reference to Dick being a gypsy in the Golden Age - do you really expect writers in the 40s to care enough about the nuances of a character’s ethnic heritage, especially a gypsy, at a time when it was still common even in countries like England (where legal segregation wasn’t a thing) to have signs on pubs like ‘no blacks, no Irish, no dogs, no gypsies’ - btw we still get those occasionally? However, if we look at the comics which have been published in the eighty five years since Dick’s debut, we see a lot of references to Dick having Romani/GRTSB heritage. Again, I’m not well read, but in Grayson’s run, at least, we do see Dick speaking Romani and self-identifying as a gypsy (Nightwing #91 btw). So I’m sorry but it is definitely canon that Dick has at least some Romani heritage (since Romani, by culture, is not taught to non-travellers on purpose, and is thus only passed down from parent to child. Hell, even some of my cousins who are half gypsy - Diddakois - don’t know the language!), and the fact that he speaks it and IDs as a gypsy does suggest that this is something important to him and his character. I know that being a gypsy is certainly a big thing to me (with how the world treats us, you have to be proud of it and have it be important to you to make it worth it).

So now we come onto the second part of my rant: wtf is going on with Haly’s Circus.

So, an important bit of context is, what makes a gypsy a gypsy? And the answer to that, in my opinion, is a mix between culture and blood. You can’t be a gypsy (unless in circumstances like adoption) unless you have both. What I mean by that is, if you’ve got one gypsy great great great grandparent, but weren’t bought up with the culture and morals, you have gypsy heritage but are not a gypsy. However, if you are a gypsy and you decide to settle down in a house, work in an office, and never speak Romani again, you are still a gypsy. Similarly, if you suddenly decide to take on the gypsy lifestyle (maybe work on the fairgrounds or in the circus, or go travelling like the New Age lot), you are not a gypsy, because it’s not in your blood - hence why it’s an ethnicity, not a cultural thing really. As such, it is common for there to be a us vs them mentality even with those working on the ground - you have the gypsy/traveller/Showman who tends to own/run things, and then you have hired non-GRTSB staff (traditionally called chaps, but this has fell out of fashion in recent years).

Now, I make this distinction because Haly’s Circus is really odd in that regard.

Most gypsy (or Showmen - like I say, it can be both at the same time) ran circuses and fairs tend to be family affairs. For example, it might be John Doe’s Circus on the tin, but the Smith family (which Mr Doe’s sister married into) will often work with and alongside the Does in the running and operating of the events. Largely, this is on an ownership level, with various relations then owning the surrounding supporting elements (e.g. sideshows, fairground rides and joints, food kiosks). Other family members might then help ‘mind’ the stuff, or you can hire non-GRTSB staff to help.

Now to draw on my own family history: historically, in the Victorian period, etc, it was common for the gypsy family who owned the circus to also perform in it. For example, in my grandfather’s circus, my grandmother was a lion tamer and equestrian performer in parades. They did also hire non-traveller performers, but there wasn’t such a distinct line. However, by the 30s approximately, this had changed to be a more managerial role, with it being more common to have purely hired performers in the main event. The exception here was for sideshows and fairground rides - it is still common today for these to be ran/worked by GRTSB people (e.g. my grandmother did the dookering - fortune telling - and my grandfather did the boxing; today, we still run and operate the rides and kiosks).

However, we know that Haly’s circus was not like that. We honestly don’t know if Haly was a gypsy or not. Also, usually, gypsies have such big families and are surrounded by them, but we know that the Graysons died with no living family (no William Cobb does not count here) and had no relation to anyone at Haly’s. I suppose if you want a canon answer, you could point to how Haly’s was used by the Court of Owls, but it could just be Like That. This is unusual but not unheard of, but still worth pointing out I think. Alternatively, it could originate from one of the non-GRTSB started circuses which were popular around the turn of the 20th century. Since being a gypsy is really tied to your family name and, ethnically, means you have to be born into it - you can’t just start a fair and claim to be one-, even 120 years later, these families are still met with scepticism - they could marry into a 100% gypsy family in 1901, and have all of their descendants do the same, and still the older generation would look at their surname and scoff and say they’re not a real traveller because that one great grandfather 100 years ago was not a born-and-bred traveller. But honestly, I think 100 years is enough to integrate. So, to summarise, Haly’s circus is quite unusual in that it does not appear to be operated by only gypsies/Showmen, even if it still common for circuses not to be performed in by just gypsies.

Now, to answer, how Romani is Dick Grayson?

Like I say, canon does explicitly tell us that he has Romani heritage, placing him firmly within that second category of the GRTSB acronym (and he also identifies with the more general Gypsy identity). However, it’s frankly unlikely that the writers really went in depth with the whole GRTSB thing, so I think we can tentatively suggest that he might have also identified (keyword here being ‘might’ - this is more canon-compliant HC here y’all) as a Showman (called a Carney in the US) because the whole deal with being a Showman is the circus/fairground aspect (but, like I say, it is still a ‘gypsy’ identity as you must be born a Showman, you can’t just sign up, because it is based on a mutual gypsy heritage which predates fairgrounds/circuses, which means it still fits into what we know of Dick in canon. As such, Dick being a Showman is hardly canon, but it is 100% compliant with what we know of Dick in canon). As I’ve said, they are not mutually exclusive. He could ID as both or either, or just prefer the all-encompassing ‘gypsy’.

Now, we also know that Dick is not 100% gypsy (but tbh who is nowadays? I have two non-gypsy great-great grandfathers). Although Dick’s family history is limited, we know that his great grandfather William Cobb was likely not a gypsy (he could be ethnically, it’s not ruled out, he might have just settled, but let’s go for safety’s sake here and just say he’s not). Similarly, his partner was from a wealthy non-gypsy family, meaning that ethnically, their baby (John Grayson’s father) was likely not a gypsy (though could potentially have been a Diddakoi aka a half-gypsy, if we believe William Cobb to be a settled gypsy). However, since this baby still grew up amongst the circus, it is not impossible that he ended up marrying a gypsy, which would make John Grayson half gypsy - aka a Diddakoi. In fact, I would argue that it is even likely, owing to the fact that Dick speaks Romani, and the fact that Romani is only taught to other members of the family, meaning that somewhere in the Grayson family, a Romani speaker had to be introduced. Mary Grayson (formerly Lloyd), on the other hand, probably was Romani/GRTSB herself. I say this, based mostly on her closeness with the OG Richard aka Raptor from Seeley’s run, who was Romani, and the fact that it is really common in gypsy circles to mostly mix with other gypsies, meaning that it would make sense for the pair to meet based on the fact that they were both gypsies/Romani. Therefore, I would argue that even if Dick is not wholly Romani/gypsy ethnically (but, like I say, who is nowadays?), I think there is enough both blood and culturally to make a pretty good case for him IDing as such, and foregoing the need to make any distinction. (Also, especially nowadays when Diddakois are increasingly more common, it’s not even that prejudiced to be a Diddakoi. A lot of my cousins are and you don’t even think to mention it). Aka. He’s a gypsy. Nuff said.

Then, I suppose, the final thing I’ll address is the ‘whitewashing’ issue, or, what I really think is a non-issue.

Sure, a lot of ethnically Romani people are dark skinned. There is a reason why the term gypsy exists. Now, as my grandad will tell you, gypsies originated from Northern India about 2000 years ago, before moving into Europe. However, a lot can happen in 2000 years. There are a lot of people in the UK, at least, who identify as purely Romani who have very pale skin. My family has a real split: my dad’s side of the family is quite dark, and are often mistaken for being South Asian in the summer due to how dark they get when they tan. Meanwhile, he refers to my mother’s side of the family as being ‘poxy and pasty’. My mother is a full-blooded traveller btw, same as my dad (barring their singular non-gypsy great grandad they each had). You just can’t paint everybody with the same brush. Take me for example: I am pale af and take after my mum’s side of the family, but I’ve still got the stereotypical dark curly hair and blue eyes of gypsies (which my boy also shares). Genetics are weird. So whilst I am a big fan of dark skinned Romani Dick Grayson, it’s also still ok and accurate for him to be paler. This does not make him any less Romani. (Like I say, this is all based on my experiences in the UK).

SOOO… TLDR:

Dick definitely has Romani heritage. This has been canon for decades and cannot be taken away from him.

He canonically self-IDs as a ‘gypsy’ (as well as the Romani heritage), and may also be interpreted as being a Showman (even if this is more of a European term) if you want to see him that way, especially since a lot of Showman families (mine included) can trace their families back past the origin of the fairground to when they simply identified as gypsies or Romani (hence why Dick might ID as a gypsy with Romani heritage. Honestly, this is mostly in the realm of canon-compliant Headcanon now)

The GRTSB classification system is a mess y’all and everyone has a different opinion. Just roll with it and don’t get into the debates is my professional opinion.

Being Romani/a gypsy/a traveller/a Showman is something you are born into. You can’t just become one, or stop being one. So, if we presume that William Cobb had no Romani heritage/was not a settled-down Gypsy, even after he joined Haly’s he did not become one. It really is in your blood, and is tied to family.

Haly’s circus is unusual because it’s mostly not a family affair (though points for the Graysons sticking with it and inheriting their roles - that is realistic!). It’s unclear how many of the members of the circus are Romani.

Dick also has non-traveller heritage due to the William Cobb thing. His grandfather, at least, was probably not ethnically Romani (though he might have been half if we want to view William Cobb as having Romani heritage/being a settled gypsy). However, since Dick canonically has Romani heritage, IDs as a gypsy, and speaks Romani (a language which is closely guarded amongst gypsies), it had to come in somewhere. Honestly, I think we can comfortably view him as being at least 3/4 ethnically Romani/a Gypsy, but also since modern Dick Grayson was not born during prohibition, this really isn’t a problem as it’s really common for Diddakois (half gypsies) to be treated as full gypsies nowadays.

As much as I love darker skinned Dick Grayson, it’s not a requirement. A lot of the GRTSB community (especially in Western Europe/Britain/Ireland) are on the pale side. This does not take away from their identity.

So that’s my rant. It’s like 3.30am so it’s probably a complete mess but hopefully it gets down the basics, at least insofar as it relates to my experiences and understanding as a gypsy from the fairground/a circus family. People will probably have different experiences (especially since I’m in the UK). Although I have based all of this on canon, and as such it should all be canon-compliant to my knowledge (I’ve still not read all the comics!), it is also equally based on my experiences, so you may interpret it completely differently. The beauty of Dick’s character is that he has been built up over 85 years, and as such, we have to do our best to interpret what was laid down in the Golden Age by writers with no idea of what Dick’s character would grow to be. As such, canon really is a bit of a sandbox, and this is my own go at it!

If anyone has any questions/wants clarification/notices any obvious contradictions with canon since I’ve not read them all yet, please feel free to point it out! This is not intended to be a lecture/call out post/dictatorship on how you view canon, just a small exploration of my interpretation of a character whom I relate to as a Romani speaking gypsy from the fairground/circus myself.

#I’m low-key terrified to post this pls don’t hang draw and quarter me #batman #batfam #dc comics #dick grayson #nightwing #romani dick grayson

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sgiandubh · 4 months ago

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I love your style, intelligent, down to earth, very practical, not in the 5-10 children in 7 years part of the fandom. Guess that’s why I’m very intrigued by your take on recent events. I feel a massive shift in their public behavior, very different from the last 6-7 years where they tried very hard to separate themselves from their characters and each other. Why do you think that is?

Dear @i-ship,

Thank you very much for the kind words. I try to keep things in check and base my opinions on solid facts. Not 'FACTS', mind you, but as much as possible publicly available documents and data. The not so public things (meaning you have to pay for those, which indicates a different confidentiality level) I keep for myself, because I am not an idiot: in no way, however, do they contradict the rest, in which case I would immediately recalibrate my analysis. I also know very well that confirmation bias has often been mentioned as a sad excuse across the street, when things didn't look good for them. That is wishful bullshit, because no legal professional would prostitute their skill in order to shoehorn reality into a given scenario. Papers speak by themselves - there is no need to stretch the information they contain, but yes, you can (and you should) interpret them. Therefore, all I did was to translate in everyday English what is often not accessible to everyone and wrap it in a bit of context. This is, apparently, a mortal sin and I know it is the main reason I am being hated with a passion, by many.

All of the above just to stress the fact that I am not easily swayed by sensational pics, tidbits and gifs. I may sound like a damned party pooper to you, but I prefer to patiently follow what I think is interesting, rather than childishly bounce on my chair every single time people see what they really saw a thousand times before, in eleven years of saga. Nor do I need to have confirmation four times a day of something that simply exists, irrespective of the fact I know about it or not.

I will say only this: C definitely looks as she DGAF about the whole circus anymore. It started with the piggyback pics, on March 25, continued with the Taylor Swift concert (the only time I allowed myself to oooh and awww at 4 AM) and is now seemingly confirmed by these new promo pics and interviews. Yes, they screeched 'it's fan service', but as far as I know nobody forced C to behave the way she clearly intends to show everyone. It's Season 7B, for Christ's sake, the script is hogwash and the acting is not so good (yes, I will need a rewatch to write something decently balanced about it), the audience numbers are dwindling and OL is on its way out. Hard truths, no matter how you turn it: why would she open again the door to 'speculation' (ah, but what's in a word?), especially considering this cesspool of a fandom's obsessive-compulsive collective behavior?

Unless...

Unless, @i-ship. Let's not write the script, but you got me. I hope this answers your question - at any rate, it was a pleasure trying to.

#asks #fandom #shitshow #Season 7b promo

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saintsenara · 4 months ago

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why do people portray walburga and her relationship with sirius in such an exaggerated way? like torture??? i get that we don't have a lot of information about what went down, but its such an extreme choice

thank you very much for the ask, anon!

unsurprisingly, the answer to this is under the cut, because it comes with a trigger warning for discussions of physical and sexual abuse.

my interpretation of things is that it's a really interesting bleed-through into fandom of two real-world views a lot of people have:

firstly, that it's uniquely horrifying when a woman who is also a mother is cruel to children [or, indeed, when she's anything other than completely self-sacrificing and nurturing].

grimmauld place is a dozen different gothic literature tropes in a trenchcoat, and the text hammers that home with absolutely no subtlety whatsoever. it is walburga in the portrait - haunting sirius, serving as a physical manifestation of the rot of blood purity, making grimmauld place seem as much of a prison as azkaban - rather than orion because the reader wouldn't find it anywhere near as disgusting or frightening to see a man in that role, and the narrative meaning intended by the portrait therefore wouldn't come over as clearly.

[the subtext to walburga's character - that the portrait and the house are liminal spaces between life and death, a hint at the extraordinary grief she carries which will be revealed in deathly hallows - would also be interpreted very differently by the reader if they belonged to orion. walburga's grief - for both sirius and regulus - is inextricable from what the series thinks is "true" about motherhood and womanhood.]

and this - i think - is why, even though sirius does talk about the emotional abuse he experienced coming from both of his parents, the fandom is laser-focused on walburga. she's a bigger presence textually and she's a bigger presence textually entirely because she exists in defiance of deep-rooted societal opinions about how mothers should act.

[which we also see in the fandom's responses to petunia versus vernon and molly versus arthur...]

the second real-world view which bleeds through into the fandom's treatment of sirius' childhood is one which lots of people hold and which therefore has major, major repercussions for people in abusive households and relationships: the idea that abuse which isn't physically extreme [or, in the case of children, but much less often adults, sexual] isn't "as bad" as abuse which is.

and part of this is that the social norms we live by treat extreme physical abuse [and child sexual abuse] as objectively wrong, but treat abuse which doesn't meet this threshold of extremity much more subjectively.

a parent who beats their child so badly that they almost die will inspire outrage from all quarters. a parent who hits their child with a belt once across the backs of the legs as punishment for misbehaviour, but claims this is a form of reasonable physical discipline which doesn't cause their child any lasting harm, will find plenty of people willing to defend them as well as plenty of people willing to condemn.

and - of course - societal prejudices connected to things like gender, race, class, and so on play a big part in these splitting of opinions. a man who rapes his five-year-old child will be - in public, at least - unambiguously regarded as a criminal by everyone in a community. a man who rapes his female partner will find plenty of people willing to argue that it's her duty to provide him with sex and he was merely requiring her to fulfil that duty. a man who rapes his male partner will find plenty of people willing to say that gay men are all hypersexual and the victim loved it.

this subjectivity of response is also one of the reasons why emotional abuse, financial abuse, coercive control, stalking, and other forms of non-physical abuse still aren't taken as seriously as they should be. there's a widespread perception - and not just among police - that they're not dangerous in and of themselves.

from the fandom perspective, then, it seems to me that the writing of abusive situations often focuses on extreme physical violence as a way of authors offering "proof" to their readers that they take the fact that the character was abused seriously.

there is a worry - i think - in many authors' minds that if they wrote walburga never laying a hand on sirius, they would be accused of claiming his childhood was normal, his experience was fine, his parents' treatment of him was justified, or that he shouldn't be thought of as someone who was abused.

but - of course - something it's crucial for us to do in real life is be alert to just how complex and individual abuse is, and how poor our pre-conceived notions about what it is and what it isn't tend to be. i think the same is true in fandom, and it's why i think portrayals of non-physical abuse which take that abuse as bad enough are so important.

#asks answered #sirius black #walburga black

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somebodys-nightmare · 7 months ago

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Understanding the Romantic Narrative Arcs in Final Fantasy VII

There has been no shortage of discourse surrounding the “Love Triangle Debate”, (a fan-constructed term, I must inform you) of FFVII for a very long time. Most recently, with the release of FFVII Rebirth, this discourse has intensified and led to a wide spectrum of fan conclusions that range from grounded in narrative sense to completely baseless or delusional. Some takes are attached to contemporary relationship issues, personal experience, comparisons to other media or works of fiction, social constructs or societal issues, personal preference, or a lack of full context.

While any piece of media or fiction is subject to some level of interpretation (this is the very nature of humans consuming works of art), most works are created with intentional narrative direction. In fact, many works are formulaic, especially in genres such as fantasy, romance, mystery, etc. While of course there are always exceptions and deviations, as a writer and former English literature teacher I can say that most stories follow a general narrative structure or arc that makes them digestible and satisfying to readers/audiences. Such arcs impact the main, external, internal, and subplots of a story, as well as individual character arcs and character relationship arcs.

Final Fantasy is no different. While there are other cultural influences as FFs are Japanese stories, my experience with the series is the writing generally follows most storytelling conventions that can be found in all forms of archetypal writing, cross-culturally and generationally. FFVII is often accused of being ambiguous or open-ended in many aspects of its story. I tend to disagree with this idea and think that its storytelling is subversive rather than ambiguous, meaning that it requires players to work harder and use more critical thinking in order to reach the author’s intended conclusions. It also relies on false or misleading narratives for a good part of the story (such as red herrings, illusions, or unreliable narrators) as storytelling devices that help the truth in the story unfold in later parts of the narrative arc(s). Like any piece of media using these storytelling methods, this means that there will be controversy or debate as audiences contend with the author’s messages or intentions. However, that does not mean that the intentions are not there and that there is not an intentional outcome on the part of the writers.

Personally, I believe that FFVII has a very clear narrative structure for all of its main plot, sub plots, and character arcs, but that its approach is challenging to many players who have to wrestle with the story as it unfolds to understand it. It is not spoon-fed, and some revelations may betray player attachments that were originally formed. However, in my view, this is what makes FFVII such an exceptional story when compared to many others. That being said, the lack (or refusal) of understanding of FFVII’s narrative arcs has led to discourse that unfortunately mischaracterizes many of the characters and pushes inappropriate perspectives onto the storytelling, mostly surrounding the romantic arcs of the main characters and the so-called “LTD” (the fan construction, remember?). I strongly believe that the best way to understand any story is to follow the narrative arcs in order to arrive at the author’s intended conclusions.

I’m going to attempt to do that for the romantic subplots in FFVII in hopes of bringing some clarity to this issue. This analysis is based on a standard Three-Act Romance narrative writing structure (which aligns with the Hero's Journey structure), as well common romantic archetypes and tropes, both for characters and plot, but applied to the specific context of the story, world, and characters of FFVII. Please note that this is my personal analysis and it is by no means perfect, nor am I saying this is the bible of how FFVII has been written. I just hope it gives some insight into why some storytelling interpretations of FFVII should make more sense than… others. This analysis will draw from bits of the entire compilation, but the primary focus of the structure will be looking at FF7R with the OG as a baseline.

This is a long thread, so please see the outline for discussion below.

Romantic Structure/Trope Analysis

Cloud/Tifa: The Slow Burn/Childhood Friends to Lovers Romance

Aerith/Cloud: The Unrequited Love/Not Meant to Be Romance

Zack/Aerith: The Long Lost Love Romance

Final Thoughts: The "Love Triangle" is a Narrative Illusion

Cloud/Tifa: The Slow Burn/Childhood Friends to Lovers Romance

Act 1: The Beginning

The Hook (Childhood Connection Revealed)

Romance Structure: Introduction / Setup

Purpose: Establish the protagonists in their everyday lives, showing what emotional or psychological issues are holding them back from love. Readers should get a sense of their internal conflicts and motivations, along with the external situations that will challenge them later.

Childhood Friends Layer: Introduce the deep connection between the two characters, showing them as lifelong friends with an established bond. There could be hints of one or both characters secretly harboring feelings for the other, but they haven't acted on it due to fear of losing the friendship.

Example: Cloud and Tifa are childhood friends with a complicated history. Although they were close when they were little, they drifted apart but secretly longed for one another. They shared a romantic promise and then separated for seven years. At the beginning of FFVII, they are reunited, but both characters are contending with serious internal and external conflicts - Cloud’s identity crisis and the Shinra Company’s greed and abuse of the planet.

The Inciting Incident / Call to Adventure / Meet-Cute

Romance Structure: Inciting Incident / The Meet-Cute

Purpose: The main characters meet or are pushed together by external circumstances. This encounter introduces the romantic conflict—whether it’s instant attraction or tension between them.

Childhood Friends Layer: Since they’ve already known each other for years, the “meet-cute” here is more about seeing each other in a new light. Maybe one of them returns to town after time away, or an external event shifts their dynamic, making one or both start to view the other differently.

Example: Cloud and Tifa reunite in Midgar and Tifa recruits Cloud to work for AVALANCHE. She does this primarily to keep him close so she can keep an eye on him as she is worried about him and his mental state. During this time, we see an instant chemistry between Cloud and Tifa as they reconnect after years apart. When conflicts are introduced, we see the strain that it puts on them, but we also see how there’s a lingering desire for closeness, whether it be in their discussion/memory of the promise, their mutual flirting, their skinship, etc.

First Plot Point / Refusal of the Call

Romance Structure: Rejection of the Relationship

Purpose: The characters resist the idea of a romantic relationship, often due to internal or external obstacles. There’s a clear push-pull dynamic as they fight their growing attraction, often rejecting the possibility of being together.

Childhood Friends Layer: The hesitation here comes from their shared history. Both characters are afraid to risk their close friendship for something as uncertain as a romance. This dynamic creates tension as they begin to realize how much they depend on each other emotionally.

Example: This isn’t directly addressed, but the narrative deflects from intentional romantic confrontations at this point because of Cloud’s identity crisis and the pressing issues of the external conflict. Neither character is outwardly pursuing a relationship, but they don’t exactly deny their desire for closeness. We consistently see the push/pull between Cloud and Tifa throughout the early part of their arc. It's also further complicated when Sephiroth starts to sabotage their relationship.

Act 2: The Middle

First Pinch Point / Acceptance of the Quest

Romance Structure: Giving the Relationship a Chance

Purpose: External circumstances push them together, forcing them to interact and face their growing connection. Even if they resist the idea of love, the bond between them deepens as they spend more time together.

Childhood Friends Layer: Their shared history becomes an advantage and a source of conflict. The deeper they dive into new romantic feelings, the more they rely on the comfort of their friendship, but they’re also terrified of crossing the line and ruining everything.

Example: Cloud and Tifa work together both with AVALANCHE and the party at large to combat the threats present in the external conflict. Additionally, they share deep trauma from the Nibelheim Incident that brings them closer together as sources of comfort. They become one another’s rocks, and though they still do not move toward any explicit romantic confirmation, it is clear from their behavior that they both hold deep feelings for each other and care for each other greatly. Cloud in particular holds on to his promise to Tifa, making it a cornerstone of his strength moving forward.

Midpoint Crisis / Trials and Temptations

Romance Structure: Midpoint / I-Need-You-But-Can’t-Have-You

Purpose: This is a major turning point where the characters either experience a "false high" (where they feel like things are going well but something still isn’t quite right) or a "false low" (where they feel like things are falling apart). There’s often a pivotal moment of intimacy that deepens their bond but also introduces new fears.

Childhood Friends Layer: The fear of losing the friendship intensifies. They might experience their first kiss or confession of deeper feelings, but the risk of ruining their long-established bond makes the situation more fraught with anxiety.

Example: This particular point in the arc gets a little tricky for Cloud and Tifa because of Cloud’s identity crisis and Tifa’s reticence around their mismatched issues. However, Rebirth has made it clear that before the end of disc 1, Cloud and Tifa are aware of their feelings for each other and that the narrative is still in the way of it. This arc intersects events that transpire from Kalm to Gongaga, and we see the build-up of tension due to the internal conflict between Cloud and Sephiroth.

Second Pinch Point / The Road Back

Romance Structure: Pulling Back Together

Purpose: The characters are drawn back together by external events, but their internal fears and conflicts still loom large. The romance starts to deepen, but both are still fighting their feelings in some way.

Childhood Friends Layer: They try to go back to being "just friends," but it’s clear that things have changed between them. The emotional and romantic tension keeps building, and they can’t ignore how much they need each other.

Example: We see this dynamic between Cloud and Tifa continue to build throughout disc 1, particularly in Rebirth. We are consistently reminded of the tension between them and the importance of their relationship, regardless of romantic intent. Gongaga and Nibelheim are great examples of this.

Second Plot Point / The Fall

Romance Structure: The Fall

Purpose: The characters are now falling in love, even if they haven’t fully admitted it to each other. There’s often a deeper moment of intimacy—physical or emotional—that makes them realize just how much they mean to each other.

Childhood Friends Layer: One or both characters realize they’ve fallen hard for their best friend, but they are still careful or hold back from telling the other, afraid it might ruin everything. Nonetheless, they give in to their feelings in some capacity, which marks a turning point.

Example: The Gold Saucer date would be the best parallel for this point in the arc for Cloud and Tifa. In the OG Tifa almost confesses to a very interested Cloud, in Rebirth, they confirm feelings and kiss. Either way, it’s clearly meant to signal at this point, the fall has happened.

Act 3: The End

The Crisis / Dark Moment

Romance Structure: Dark Moment / The Break-Up

Purpose: This is the point where everything falls apart. The characters break up or distance themselves, either because of internal or external forces.

Childhood Friends Layer: The weight of their shared history makes this moment even more devastating. The fear of losing the friendship forever becomes real.

Example: For Cloud and Tifa, this moment is really hinged on Cloud’s mental breakdown. After the Gold Saucer Date, Cloud’s mental state progressively worsens due to events that occur within both the internal and external conflicts, and his bond with Tifa is severed completely at the Northern Crater. Cloud and Tifa are separated when Cloud falls into the Lifestream.

The Sacrifice / The Crisis Resolution

Romance Structure: The Sacrifice

Purpose: One or both characters must confront their fears and make a choice. This moment often involves a grand gesture or a realization that love is worth the risk.

Childhood Friends Layer: The realization comes that their friendship has always been the foundation of something more. They understand that risking the friendship for love is not only worth it but that the friendship can only deepen through their romantic connection.

Example: This point comes in Mideel and the Lifestream Scene. Tifa reaches her own realization about her relationship with Cloud and how her reticence has impacted things, and her conviction to save him and be with him is both profound and clearly romantic. Inside the Lifestream, Tifa helps Cloud to find himself, and many revelations about his true feelings for her are brought to light. Of course, we have not reached this point of the story in FF7R, so it will be intriguing to see how it unfolds, given all of the additional context the remake series and ToTP have provided.

The Climax / Declaration

Romance Structure: Declaration

Purpose: The characters finally confess their love for each other, making the leap from friends to lovers. This is the emotional high point where the relationship is solidified.

Childhood Friends Layer: The confession of love is tied to their long history, as they realize that their deep emotional connection as friends is the foundation for a strong romantic relationship.

Example: This moment for Cloud and Tifa is the Highwind Scene in the OG, where they confirm, without words, that their feelings match. Once again, we will see how this event unfolds in Part 3 with all the new and deepened context of Cloud and Tifa’s relationship in 7R.

The Resolution / Denouement

Romance Structure: Denouement / HEA

Purpose: The characters are together and happy, giving the reader a sense of closure.

Childhood Friends Layer: The resolution emphasizes how their strong friendship has transitioned seamlessly into a romantic relationship, giving the sense that they’ll continue to support each other as both friends and lovers.

Example: In the OG, this is seen in the FMV of the game where Cloud and Tifa are together, leading to the resolution of the entire story as Holy and the Lifestream are released. While this scene isn’t particularly direct, it’s enough to show that Cloud and Tifa are together, which leads to ACC where they live and raise a family together. This entire ending segment will likely be greatly expanded in FF7R, and so it'll be interesting to see how these moments are handled, given all of the new context.

Aerith/Cloud: Unrequited Love/Not Meant to Be Arc

Act 1: The Beginning

The Hook (Unrequited Feelings Introduced)

Romance Structure: Introduction / Setup

Purpose: Introduce the protagonist, who falls for the other character. Set up their emotional and psychological conflict, showing how these unrequited feelings shape their interactions with the other character.

Unrequited Love Layer: The character’s love is clearly unreturned, but they hold on to hope. There is a mix of admiration, longing, and pain as they watch the love interest live their life without ever seeing them as a romantic partner.

Example: Aerith’s feelings for Cloud, who she meets first on the streets of Midgar and later inside her church, are inspired by her long-lost love, Zack, whom he reminds her of. We don’t know this immediately, but we find out soon enough, and the story, especially 7R, is full of visual and symbolic cues.

The Inciting Incident / Call to Adventure / Meet-Cute

Romance Structure: Inciting Incident / The Meet-Cute

Purpose: The characters are pushed together by external circumstances, giving the protagonist more time with the love interest. The character sees this as an opportunity to grow closer, but the other character remains unaware or indifferent to their romantic feelings.

Unrequited Love Layer: The character is thrilled to spend more time with the other character and hopes this will bring them closer. However, the love interest still sees the relationship as platonic, creating tension.

Example: While their interaction on Loveless Street is the fated moment for Cloud and Aerith, the meet-cute is their meeting in the church. This is the inciting incident that not only truly triggers Aerith’s latent Zack-longing, but also begins Cloud and Aerith’s friendship as they work together for a common cause. Aerith flirts with Cloud quite a bit at this point, displaying her interest, but Cloud does not reciprocate in any romantic sense. She also refuses to let him leave and follows him around, essentially solidifying Aerith’s place in the player party and cementing her role as the heroine driving the external conflict. From here on out, we are consistently reminded that Cloud reminds Aerith of Zack, the deeper reason for her interest in him.

First Plot Point / Refusal of the Call

Romance Structure: Rejection of the Relationship

Purpose: The protagonist’s feelings remain unrequited. The other character might express interest in someone else or explicitly state that they don’t see the protagonist in a romantic light. This deepens the emotional conflict for the protagonist, who struggles with unspoken feelings.

Unrequited Love Layer: The protagonist is heartbroken but holds onto hope. They keep pushing their emotions down, unwilling to let go just yet.

Example: Aerith meets Tifa and quickly realizes that she is someone deeply important to Cloud. In Remake, she realizes this even before meeting her when Cloud has a headache and calls out Tifa’s name. Her awareness changes her behavior somewhat, but internally, she still is still conflicted because of her internal conflict over Zack.

Act 2: The Middle

First Pinch Point / Acceptance of the Quest

Romance Structure: Giving the Relationship a Chance

Purpose: External circumstances continue to push the characters together, and the protagonist’s feelings deepen. They begin to cling to small moments, hoping that their love might one day be reciprocated.

Unrequited Love Layer: The protagonist interprets friendly gestures as signs of romantic potential. They invest emotionally in every small interaction, hoping it means more than it does. However, deep down, they start to feel the weight of their unreturned affection.

Example: The journey continues with the party leaving Midgar, and Aerith’s feelings for Cloud grow despite her knowledge of his bond with Tifa as the party travels together. In Rebirth this is further complicated by Aerith’s loss of foresight/memories to the Whispers. We are also constantly reminded of Aerith’s lingering feelings for Zack and her grief and sadness over his loss/disappearance. Throughout the journey, she seeks out opportunities to spend time with Cloud - “dates” even though these moments are not reciprocated romantically. A notable example of this is her date with him on the clock tower in Kalm, where she speaks to him about his relationship with Tifa (hinting at her knowledge of their bond and her jealousy over it) and then her public declaration that they were on a date (in front of Tifa). Cloud's reaction to moments like these continue to inform the audience he does not return romantic affections for Aerith.

Midpoint Crisis / Trials and Temptations

Romance Structure: Midpoint / I-Need-You-But-Can’t-Have-You

Purpose: A major turning point occurs where the protagonist either faces the possibility that their love will never be returned or sees a fleeting moment where they think it might be. The emotional stakes are higher, as the protagonist grapples with whether to continue holding on.

Unrequited Love Layer: The character might attempt to make their feelings known, either explicitly or through subtle gestures, but the love interest doesn’t reciprocate. The character is left feeling exposed and vulnerable, yet still holding on to hope that things might change.

Example: For Cloud and Aerith, this continues to be the nature of their relational development throughout most of disc 1, but their interaction on the water tower in Nibelheim is probably the best example of this. Aerith has to grapple with her jealousy over Cloud and Tifa’s bond, which she has been observing for the entire game. Her acknowledgment of her feelings over it is a major turning point as a character. Additionally, this moment really cements that Cloud views his relationship with Aerith as a cherished friendship, as we see the way that he cares about her angry reaction.

Second Pinch Point / The Road Back

Romance Structure: Pulling Back Together

Purpose: Circumstances force the characters to spend more time together, even though the character is starting to feel the emotional strain of unrequited love. There may be a moment of temporary hope, but it’s tinged with the growing realization that their feelings might never be returned.

Unrequited Love Layer: The character becomes more emotionally drained as they begin to sense that their love will remain one-sided. They might try one last time to be closer to the love interest, but the gap between them is becoming clearer.

Example: This moment could best be viewed through Cloud and Aerith’s Gold Saucer date. There, Aerith not only tries to get closer to Cloud but she opens up emotionally and gives Cloud insight into the root of her feelings, which is Zack. Cloud does not reciprocate any of Aerith’s romantic overtures in this date and rather displays discomfort or awkwardness throughout most of it. However, he does allow her a moment of emotional vulnerability, which he has not been willing to do previously. This is further contextualized by how, In Rebirth, Cloud has remembered Zack by this point (albeit incorrectly). Cloud, who cherishes and cares for Aerith greatly as a friend, is considerate of this connection and offers her comfort for the grief and loss she has just admitted to feeling and seeking consolation in him from. Hence "just until the ride's over"; "I didn't do anything" etc...

Second Plot Point / The Fall

Romance Structure: The Fall

Purpose: The character finally realizes that their love will never be returned. This is an emotionally intense moment where they are forced to confront the truth—they will never be more than a friend or confidant to the love interest.

Unrequited Love Layer: The protagonist may be devastated by the final confirmation that their feelings will never be returned. The emotional weight of unrequited love becomes too much, and they start to realize they need to let go, or come to other realizations about their feelings.

Example: The moment that most closely matches with this point in the arc is the dream stroll through Sector 5. Not only does Aerith accept that Cloud doesn’t return her feelings romantically, but she comes to a realization of her own feelings and questions them. This is clearly a reference to Zack, whose internal conflict has been consistently foreshadowed. Aerith also seems to recognize that she can’t help Cloud with his internal conflict - that is Tifa's role.

Act 3: The End

The Crisis / Dark Moment

Romance Structure: Dark Moment / The Break-Up

Purpose: This is the point of emotional reckoning, where they face the reality of unrequited love and move on in their arc.

Unrequited Love Layer: The character experiences grief over their unreturned feelings. They might decide to pull away from the love interest entirely, or they may try to come to terms with remaining friends while letting go of their romantic hopes and moving on.

Example: For Aerith, this moment is marked by her complete transition to her role in the external conflict. At this point, she has let go of her romantic fancy for Cloud and has committed herself to the bigger picture. It is at this point that she leaves the party, and leaves Cloud in the Sleeping Forest, to fulfill her role as a Cetra.

The Sacrifice / The Crisis Resolution

Romance Structure: The Sacrifice

Purpose: The protagonist sacrifices their unrequited love, realizing they need to move on for the sake of their own emotional well-being or greater purposes. This is a bittersweet moment of acceptance and self-growth, where they let go of the hope that kept them holding on for so long.

Unrequited Love Layer: The protagonist may realize that holding on to unrequited love is only hurting them or preventing them from reaching a greater purpose.

Example: For Aerith, this point in the arc is less about Cloud and more about her role in the external conflict. This is the point in which she travels to the Forgotten City, prays, and ultimately is killed. However, it is bittersweet and tragic for her, ultimately, because she dies with unrequited love from Cloud and without ever getting closure on her true love, Zack.

The Climax / Declaration

Romance Structure: Declaration

Purpose: Instead of a declaration of mutual love, this is the protagonist’s internal declaration of acceptance. They start the process of moving on.

Unrequited Love Layer: The protagonist lets go of the love interest in their heart, realizing that they need to focus on their own future. The love interest is likely unaware of this internal shift, but it’s a powerful moment of growth for the protagonist.

Example: For Aerith, this is perhaps best viewed in her complete transition after death to the larger role she plays as the heroine of the planet from within the Lifestream. Her arc has fully transitioned away from her feelings for Cloud into her greater purpose. In FF7R, we can hope to see how Zack, who has been trying to find her, begins to impact this next phase of her arc.

The Resolution / Denouement

Romance Structure: Denouement / HEA

Purpose: Instead of a traditional happy ending, this is a reflective, bittersweet resolution. The character has grown emotionally. There is a sense of closure, though it may come with lingering heartache.

Unrequited Love Layer: The character has let go of the hope that their love would ever be returned. They are stronger for it and have moved on.

Example: For Aerith and Cloud, this moment is best summed up by their brief Lifestream reunion at the end of the game. It will be intriguing to see how this moment is expanded and provides closure for Cloud and Aerith’s relationship, as well as Zack’s role in both.

Zack/Aerith: Long Lost Love/Tragic Love Arc

This arc is a little more complicated to map out since it is not only incomplete but riddled with mysteries at this point. However, I’m going to do my best to make the connections based on the information we have and where we can theorize things may be going.

Act 1: The Beginning

The Hook

Romance Structure: Introduction / Setup

Purpose: Establish the protagonist’s life after the estrangement, showing how unresolved feelings for their lost lover impact their emotional world. There’s a sense of longing and unfinished business that propels the protagonist’s actions.

Long Lost Lovers Layer: The protagonist is haunted by memories of their estranged lover and driven by a deep desire to find them again. This longing is fueled by unresolved emotional wounds, and the protagonist clings to the hope of a reunion.

Example: In Rebirth, from the beginning, Zack is singularly focused on reuniting with Aerith. After his escape from Nibelheim, even as he carries the wounded Cloud, Zack’s thoughts are consumed by Aerith. His love for her pushes him forward despite the dangerous and confusing circumstances he finds himself in. Zack’s motivation intensifies when he discovers, through a newscast, that Aerith is in danger. This revelation shifts Zack from hopeful longing to immediate action, driving home the urgency of his quest. His decision to prioritize Aerith’s safety over everything else, including Cloud, underscores how central Aerith is to his purpose, raising the stakes for his emotional journey.

The Inciting Incident

Romance Structure: The Call to Adventure

Purpose: The inciting incident transitions the protagonist from passive longing to active pursuit of reunion. Some event or revelation forces the protagonist to act, prompting them to seek out their estranged lover. Often, this is triggered by the discovery that the lover may be in danger.

Long Lost Lovers Layer: The protagonist realizes that simply hoping for a reunion isn’t enough—there’s now a tangible reason for urgency. This event serves as a catalyst for the protagonist to fully commit to the journey of reconnecting with their lover, increasing the stakes as they shift from passive longing to active pursuit.

Example: After mysteriously "surviving" his last stand against Shinra (as seen at the end of Crisis Core), Zack rescues Aerith from Shinra’s grasp in Rebirth. However, instead of a triumphant reunion, the moment is clouded with confusion and tragedy. This rescue scene signals Zack’s deep emotions for Aerith and heightens the sense of foreboding in their relationship arc. The player quickly realizes that the reunion isn’t straightforward and that darker forces are at play, casting a shadow over Zack’s determined rescue.

First Plot Point

Romance Structure: Refusal of the Call / First Obstacle

Purpose: The first major obstacle or refusal of the call introduces the initial challenges the protagonist faces in their pursuit of the lost lover. Despite their determination, external forces or internal doubts surface, complicating the journey.

Long Lost Lovers Layer: The protagonist’s optimism about reuniting with their estranged lover is challenged by harsh realities—whether through physical danger, supernatural elements, or emotional barriers. This moment introduces doubts about whether a reunion is possible, raising tension and uncertainty.

Example: Zack eventually brings a comatose Aerith and Cloud to Elmyra’s house. Zack’s devotion to them is evident as he cares for them despite their unresponsive states, but the world around him behaves in strange ways. The eerie sense of something deeply wrong in Sector 5 hints that Zack’s reality—and Aerith’s fate—are far from certain. He’s not just fighting to reunite with Aerith; he’s battling a reality that is becoming increasingly unstable. The player shares in Zack’s growing sense of anxiety and confusion, setting the tone for the more tragic layers of their arc to come.

First Pinch Point / Acceptance of the Quest

Romance Structure: Giving the Relationship a Chance

Purpose: The protagonist resolves to pursue their lost lover, hoping to rekindle what they once had. However, unresolved issues and emotional scars from the past begin to surface, complicating their journey.

Long Lost Lovers Layer: Time and distance have changed both characters, making reconnection difficult. The focus is on how time has altered both individuals and the lingering emotional weight of their separation.

Example: Zack’s attempt to reunite with Aerith is complicated by the metaphysical separation created by the Lifestream. Aerith remains comatose, as does Cloud, and Zack has to contend with both his own internal conflict as he tries to help them as well as the external conflict of his strange and mysterious circumstances within "Sector 5".

Midpoint Crisis / Trials and Temptations

Romance Structure: Midpoint / I-Need-You-But-Can’t-Have-You

Purpose: The protagonist’s need for their lost lover intensifies, but the relationship is far more complicated than expected. Old wounds and emotional or external barriers resurface, making reunion seem out of reach. Despite their determination, the protagonist begins to doubt whether they can ever restore what they once had.

Long Lost Lovers Layer: Time and emotional distance have changed the dynamics of their relationship. While both may care for each other, the past cannot easily be erased, and their attempts to reconnect are fraught with tension.

Example: External forces such as Sephiroth’s manipulations, and Aerith’s internal conflict over Cloud create an emotional barrier between her and Zack. Aerith, “asleep” in Zack’s world, remains unaware of his presence. As Zack learns from Marlene that Aerith’ "likes" Cloud, more tension and conflict is added. Despite these challenges, Zack remains unwavering in his commitment to reconnect with Aerith, determined to overcome the growing emotional distance.

Second Pinch Point / The Road Back

Romance Structure: Pulling Back Together

Purpose: The protagonist makes another push to reconnect with their lost lover despite significant setbacks. Faced with the reality that time is running out, the protagonist must act decisively to restore the relationship. While emotional connections may deepen, unresolved challenges threaten the outcome, leaving uncertainty in the air.

Long Lost Lovers Layer: Despite growing obstacles, the protagonist remains committed to rekindling the relationship. The emotional and physical distance between the lovers may still seem insurmountable, but the protagonist refuses to give up, holding onto the hope that they can salvage what they once had.

Example: Even as Zack’s hope begins to wane, he remains steadfast in his desire to reunite with Aerith. Zack finds himself pulled in multiple directions, creating additional conflicts. External forces and emotional entanglements continue to complicate their relationship, but Zack’s determination to bridge the emotional gap keeps pushing him forward. This section of Rebirth continues to heavily foreshadow both the truth about Zack as well as the future of Zack and Aerith's relationship, despite the conflicts.

Act 3: The End

The Crisis / Dark Moment

Romance Structure: The Break-Up / Darkest Hour

Purpose: The protagonist faces their darkest moment, where it seems that the reunion will never happen. Emotional scars or external forces tear the lovers apart, and the protagonist believes they’ve lost their final chance to reconnect. The relationship nears failure as the protagonist faces the harsh reality of their situation.

Long Lost Lovers Layer: The conflict grows to the point of no return. Previous mistakes or external conflicts surface, causing the relationship to fall apart, and the protagonist is left devastated, feeling that the reunion may never come.

Example: In Rebirth, this moment comes near the ending of the game when Sephiroth's confluence of worlds plays a role in role in further uprooting Zack's existence in the Lifestream. We also know that this is the time that Aerith dies in the real world, further complicating matters and adding new layers of conflict.

The Sacrifice / The Crisis Resolution

Romance Structure: The Sacrifice

Purpose: The protagonist realizes that to win back their lost lover, they must sacrifice their pride, fear, or ego. This emotional climax reflects their willingness to make a grand gesture or display vulnerability, showing they’ll do whatever it takes for a second chance.

Long Lost Lovers Layer: The protagonist makes a final, heartfelt plea to the estranged lover, acknowledging their mistakes and baring their soul. The lover, moved by the sincerity, must decide whether or not to take the risk of rekindling the relationship.

Example: Although we don’t yet know how this will play out in the Remake series, it’s likely that Part 3 will feature a reunion between Zack and Aerith. The conflicts that have built up—including Aerith’s internal struggle regarding Cloud—will need resolution. Advent Children (ACC) shows Zack and Aerith together in the Lifestream, setting the stage for a reunion in the Remake. The exact nature of this reunion remains speculative, but it’s likely Zack will make a significant sacrifice or grand gesture to resolve the emotional conflicts that have kept them apart.

The Climax / Declaration

Romance Structure: Declaration

Purpose: The estranged lover finally decides to take the risk and give the relationship another chance. After much internal struggle, they admit they’ve never stopped loving the protagonist, and they’re ready to move forward together. This is the emotional peak where both characters commit to each other.

Long Lost Lovers Layer: The reconciliation finally happens. After everything they’ve endured, the estranged lover acknowledges their lingering feelings and agrees to rebuild the relationship. Both characters take a leap of faith, trusting that they can overcome the past and move forward.

Example: Though speculative, if the arc follows the long lost lovers trope, Zack and Aerith will likely experience a heartfelt reunion in Part 3. Their lingering feelings would finally be acknowledged, clearing up Aerith’s complicated feelings for Cloud while reaffirming her bond with Zack. This declaration of love would also tie into the larger narrative arc, offering emotional resolution for both characters and allowing their story to move forward, especially in support of Aerith's role in the external conflict of the Planet.

The Resolution / Denouement

Romance Structure: Denouement / HEA

Purpose: The story concludes with a glimpse of the couple in their newly rekindled relationship. The emotional weight of their past has been lifted, and they are now ready to face the future together. Even if circumstances prevent a traditional “happy ending,” there is emotional closure and a sense of peace.

Long Lost Lovers Layer: After the pain, separation, and emotional struggle, the couple is finally together. The audience is left with a sense that their love will endure this time, offering a bittersweet but satisfying conclusion to their long journey.

Example: In Advent Children (ACC), we see Zack and Aerith reunited in the Lifestream, helping Cloud in his final battle. Their reunion suggests that, while they may no longer live in the physical world, their connection endures beyond death. Though bittersweet, their reunion offers emotional closure. The final installment of the Remake series will likely bring full resolution to Zack and Aerith’s arc, providing a satisfying conclusion, even if there are tragic elements along the way.

Final Thoughts: The Love Triangle is a Narrative Illusion

Cloud and Tifa’s Slow-Burn Childhood Friends to Lovers (Canon)

Cloud and Tifa’s relationship in Final Fantasy VII is a carefully crafted slow burn, rooted in a deep bond that extends back to their childhood in Nibelheim. Their connection is not built on superficial or flimsy romantic interactions but on a shared past and the quiet intimacy that grows from years of unspoken longing but is complicated by trauma.

Cloud and Tifa’s natural chemistry is driven by their subconscious desires and the deep, unspoken feelings they have for one another. For Cloud, his buried emotions instinctively reach out to Tifa, even though he isn’t fully aware of them. The narrative hides these true feelings, but subtle moments of affection and protectiveness reveal that, deep down, Cloud’s heart is already tied to hers, laying the groundwork for their eventual emotional connection.

The game’s emotional climax in the Lifestream, where Tifa helps Cloud piece together his shattered memories, is a pivotal moment in which both characters finally confront the depth of their feelings for each other. Their journey isn’t one of dramatic declarations, but rather a gradual, emotional reconnection that allows deeply held, mutual love and longing to blossom—a love that is grounded in shared history, healing, and mutual understanding and compassion.

This slow-burn romance stands as the true heart of Cloud’s emotional journey, dispelling the illusion of a love triangle and making it clear that Cloud’s deepest emotional ties are with Tifa.

Aerith and Cloud’s Unrequited Love / Not Meant to Be Semi-Canon/One-sided) (Fanon - mutual)

The dynamic between Aerith and Cloud, while often misinterpreted as romantic, is better understood through the lens of unrequited love and fate’s intervention. Aerith’s initial attraction to Cloud is undeniably influenced by his resemblance to her first love, Zack Fair.

As time goes on, Aerith tries to see Cloud for who he is, but tragically, this is not possible before her death, and her feelings remain complicated and unreciprocated. Their bond, while significant as friendship, never goes beyond that, reinforcing the fact that Aerith’s feelings for Cloud are more of an echo of her past with Zack.

Cloud's true self being in love with Tifa and Aerith’s tragic death seal the fate of their relationship as one that was never meant to be—a fleeting connection, shaped by circumstance rather than true compatibility.

The tragedy of this unfulfilled arc serves as a powerful narrative device, but it is clear that Cloud and Aerith were never destined to end up together, further dispelling the notion of a love triangle.

Zack and Aerith’s Long Lost Love / Tragic Love (Canon)

Zack and Aerith’s relationship is the quintessential tragic love story in Final Fantasy VII, defined by separation, longing, and loss. Aerith’s first love, Zack, vanishes from her life without explanation, leaving her with unanswered questions and unresolved feelings. Even as she begins to move forward, her heart never fully lets go of Zack, who is revealed to have fought valiantly to return to her—only to tragically lose his life in the process.

The tragedy of their love lies in the fact that both characters hold onto each other, but fate conspires to keep them apart, making their love story one of the most emotionally poignant elements in the game. Even in death, their connection endures, with Zack and Aerith appearing together in the Lifestream in ACC, symbolizing a love that transcends life itself. This arc, while bittersweet, resolves the narrative of Aerith’s romantic life—Zack was her true love, and Cloud was a reflection of the man she had lost, not a new love interest.

Their tragic love story dispels the myth of a love triangle in Final Fantasy VII, emphasizing that Aerith’s heart always belonged to Zack, even as she developed a bond with Cloud during her journey.

All of the relationships in the game are important. However, Cloud/Tifa & Zack/Aerith are the canon, mutual romantic relationships of Final Fantasy VII. Cloud/Aerith have a cherished friendship, but any romantic subtext of their relationship in the game is used as a vehicle to drive the conflicts and truths of the canon relationships forward. This is accomplished through illusions and subversions in storytelling, as well as creating internal conflict for the characters and canon relationships.

FFVII’s storytelling is deliberately designed to mislead the player through incomplete truths and emotional misdirection, including the use of red herrings, illusions, unreliable narration, and the omission of critical information or context. Cloud’s confused memories and persona, coupled with Aerith’s initial attraction to him based on his similarities to Zack, create the illusion of a romantic triangle, but the deeper truths—Cloud’s unresolved trauma and false identity, Tifa’s role as the keeper of Cloud’s real past and his true feelings, and Aerith’s ultimate fate as the Planet’s protector and her true love being Zack—gradually dismantle this illusionary love triangle.

I cannot stress enough that FFVII is not a love drama or soap opera where the game’s conflict centers on romantic rivalries, betrayal, deception, or morally questionable behaviors.. It’s a complex story that focuses on themes of life, loss, identity, self-discovery, legacy, and on and on.

Love - all kinds of love, including romantic, platonic, and familial - is a theme of FFVII, but truly and holistically, not for the sake of creating meaningless drama between the characters. The relationship dynamics appear messy at times in the earlier parts of the story, but these dynamics are designed to help us reach the proper conclusions about the story and the characters’ arcs, and how true love is a vehicle for reaching resolution for both.

Player’s choice is irrelevant to the plot. You cannot decide or alter the story structure or direction or individual character arcs or relationships. The most you can do is view the game through a slightly different lens by gaining an expanded understanding of character arcs and motivation with new replays.

Shipping is a fandom construct. It’s meant to be fun, and you can ship whatever you like. But shipping doesn’t intersect with the facts of a story or its narrative. Lying about any piece of media to convince yourself or others of its canonicity is bizarre behavior.

Respect the work and its intention, while having your shipping fun within your fandom. Don't embarrass yourself by saying an FF protagonist kissing the girl he’s loved since childhood and joined the army to impress means nothing, or worse, proves he the opposite of a hero.

You can ship your fanon without doing all that.

Last thing: Reunion is a primary theme of Final Fantasy VII. You may have noticed that it is also a primary theme for both of the canon romantic relationships. Personally, I believe that Part Three is going to drive this message home in a way that is unmistakable. I also believe that both lovers' reunions will be instrumental in resolving all of the conflicts of FFVII in the final game.

It’s not a coincidence that both reunions will take place in the Lifestream, or that they've been foreshadowed by the presence of the yellow flower.

I also believe that the dual Rebirth cover arts, described by Tetsuya Nomura as Sephiroth "tearing Cloud and Zack's worlds apart" are heavily foreshadowing the resolution of these relationships along with their connection to the the larger story structures of FFVII/FFVIIR.

Let's wait and see when Part 3 comes along.

#ffvii #cloud strife #cloti #tifa lockhart #final fantasy vii #ffviir #ffvii remake #ffvii rebirth #ltd #love triangle #love triangle debate #shipping discourse #shipping dynamics #shipping drama #shipping discussion #shipping debates

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quarterlifekitty · 20 days ago

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all I’m sayin is that it’s like you said: text isn’t indicative of tone. thus it’s actually a choice to decide someone is being demanding instead of eager & passionate without digging further. I personally choose to assume the best as often as humanly possible, bc it’s just as easy to respond with “that’s all I got for this one, glad you liked it” instead of calling someone out for a tone that likely wasn’t even what they meant 🤷‍♀️ but you do what you need to do, man.

ironically parsing actual real meaningful feedback on creative works (which no one in fandom actually wants fwiw, made that mistake once & never again) is literally more than half of my job, and tbh even in real life the biggest compliments (and the North Star we’re usually chasing) actually come from strangers whose reactions usually read along the lines of “MORE OF THAT, HOLY SHIT” or “I NEED 12 OF THEM” or “OH MY GOD AGAIN AGAIN AGAIN” or even just an emphatic “FUCK”. the real difference IRL is hearing the gasp, seeing the enthusiasm, the grin, and watching as someone absolutely sparkles upon seeing/reading/playtesting/experiencing your work for the very first time. & personally I haven’t met anyone yet who hasn’t outright laughed at some of the more out of pocket reactions, everyone’s always taken it as it was meant: a very raw & enthusiastic compliment. same kind of shit that makes us all gasp and kick our feet and blurt nonsense in the dark to an empty room at 3AM when a fic hits just right.

anyway my only real point is that the knee jerk reaction of putting up boundaries (or ffs doin shit like posting a screenshot dragging folks on reddit or twitter & then wondering why “no one comments anymore” 💀🪦) against what was PROBABLY just keyboard-mashing excitement gets just as disheartening it feels to have someone leave a genuinely rude comment (or no comments at all), so maybe consider that there might be another perspective.

I wish you the best, good luck with your work in the future

Man. I am aware that these comments are meant to be enthusiastic and positive. But they do not make me feel good. But it’s nice of you to let me know that I get to choose how I feel! And how I interpret text from a stranger! That’s very helpful.

I think it’s also INSANE that you construe me having boundaries concerning how strangers interact with me on my personal writing as being a negative reaction. I cannot hear your voice. I cannot see your face. Sorry that I don’t have such an immersive imagination. Reading something and hearing it being said has a delta between it that my minuscule brain is apparently unable to ford. It’s incredible that me saying “I don’t like it when people say that because it doesn’t make me feel good, so please don’t say things like that to me” makes you react in this way. I’m my own person. I’m not you. No one is you. You cannot control how other people react to what you say.

I’m not talking about your job or the general public or “how fandom doesn’t want real feedback”. I’m saying that there’s a type of response that kills my motivation. I am not an idiot. I am aware that it is not meant to be demanding. But it’s crazy that your response to me saying “I don’t like it when you talk to me that way” is “well you should be interpreting what I say positively instead!”. That’s not how human relationships work. I feel an enormous amount of pity for anyone who has ever tried to tell you that you hurt their feelings when you didn’t intend to.

I am beyond this blog. I have spent many many years trying to make readers happy by sharing what I make and I would have quit a long long time ago if I didn’t occasionally get nice and meaningful interactions with others. But the people who just type that they want more or they want 60k words or they want part two? I never hear from those people beyond that. Those are one time interactions. I don’t see those people as repeat presences in my notes. Which tends to illustrate that myself and my body of work are more or less irrelevant to them. And that’s fine. But don’t expect me to see you as a potential friend if that’s the case. Idk.

Also I don’t recall posting any screenshots from Reddit or Twitter dragging anyone. I get the feeling this is no longer about me, but about some greater beef.

#not writing

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traumasurvivors · 11 days ago

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That persons response was valid, and you didn't need to reblog their ideas about it if you didn't like them... people are entitled to their opinions and views.

They had a point according to how they read your post... even if how they read it/understood it was different than you intended.. You chose to create the drama there.

People are entitled to their own opinions and views, which also means I’m allowed to express by opinion and views. And when it’s on my post, in response to something I said, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with sharing my opinion to a response on it. Responding on my post is a lot different than making their own, and I would have left it if I saw it on their own post. But responses show up in my activity feed since they’re the only activity I have turned on, and I am not obligated to ignore them.

Their response came off very dismissive on a post meant for survivors. And their explanation in my ask box didn’t really help either. I do agree that people can create problems sometimes that aren’t there by their interpretation of the facts. I run an entire blog that talks about dealing with irrational thoughts and how to check the facts and all that. It just isn’t something I talk about on this blog because this blog is about validation. And my belief is that feelings are always valid. It’s how we react to those feelings that matters.

I will also say, my response might have been a more gentle explanation of what my post intended if they’d asked, or just said “I feel like…” instead of wording it like a concrete fact which came off as condescending. If they didn’t mean it to be that way, then I do apologize for that. I’ve often been accused of missing people’s tone and taking things in good faith too much and I really struggle with it. I’m told that often people are taking my posts in bad faith on purpose, and I’m trying to be more aware of that. It’s so hard to tell.

I feel like I can’t win on here, because I get hate for being a “push over” and taking things in good faith too much, but I also get hate when I try and actually solidly back my beliefs and don’t soften my explanation, and don’t take something in good faith. I’m always open to reconsidering things, but in this case, I stand by what I said. And I feel like I get hate no matter what I do, so I’m just going to do what feels right to me personally.

They did ask me to delete my responses, so I’ve done that because they said they were getting terrible asks about it and I never want that. Me defending my post doesn’t mean I want someone to be attacked in their ask box. My point of mentioning this is that it’s done. We’ve moved on. And I won’t be answering asks about it anymore.

#April answers #doesn’t the same logic apply?#if they don’t like my ideas they don’t need to reblog them?#I don’t actually think that #it’s a public platform #I just think it’s an unfair way to approach this #you can disagree with what I said #or how I handled it #but thinking it’s wrong of me to express my opinion to theirs #doesn’t make sense #tw hate

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nabi-unveiled · 1 month ago

Text

Nabi Notices (Mar 18, 2025)

It's been something like eight weeks since I decided to stop being a ghost and risk writing up my thoughts on Tumblr. I tagged my first post as "things I might regret", and I still might regret it one day. But today is not that day.

Interacting with everyone has been so much fun. It's enriched my viewing experience, and it's given me an outlet that I didn't know I needed. I'm not new to Asian media or BL by any means. I've watched Asian media for over 20 years and BL since 2017 (plus other queer media prior), but my options for discussing it have been very limited (my brother mostly).

It's just not safe in my family or my community. But man - it really is fun talking about the things you enjoy. There have been some interesting side effects of this venture, but I'll save those thoughts for a future week.

In general, the BL Tumblr community has been so welcoming and affirming. We may disagree on our takes and interpretations. A show one person loves, another may hate. But isn't that the beauty of it? We can actually say those things. We can have conversations about dopamine sprinkles, read too much into symbols and colors, and rant about poorly written dialogue. I continually feel affirmed here.

When I started this blog two months ago, I initially did a "Weekly Wrap-Up" outlining shows I watched and a few thoughts. I really enjoy reading those posts from other people. However, I quickly learned that I don't enjoy writing those posts myself.

I watch a lot of shows during the week - some properly, most as background noise. I'm sporadic at best. My brother calls us human ping-pong balls. In our defense, we only get to talk 1-2 hours a month. There's a lot of ground we need to cover in those calls.

I drop and pick up shows based on my current mood, the nature of my current work assignment, time availability, and if I crash from lack of sleep. Sometimes I binge. Sometimes I space episodes out weeks apart. Anyone who followed me during When It Rains knows I have bouts of hyperfixation. The thought of being "locked into" a show is not for me. After all, the reason I delayed this long in watching the ThamePo finale is personal. It has nothing to do with the show. The typical format of a weekly wrap-up felt like I was setting up an expectation I couldn't keep.

So this made me ponder - what type of "weekly post" would work for me? After much thought, I've decided I'll post my favorite moments of the past week from a variety of categories. The categories may change from time to time. My main goal here is to give myself flexibility and have fun with it. The intro will probably be MUCH shorter in future weeks.

The Things I Noticed This Week:

Fabulous Fit

I love talking style. I love looking at fashion. My phone background changes about every three days and is always a look I liked from an actor or K-pop idol. I still dress in comfy basics more often than not. But this week, the look that caught my eye was this one right here:

My man Eve (Make Up With Mud) is the epitome of dressing how you feel and varying style up. I can't recommend the show, but I'll be watching it to the end solely for this character and his asymmetrical earrings. I fully intend on making a compilation of his looks by the end of my watch. Maybe by then I'll have learned how to properly make GIFs.

Fascinating Find

I go on a lot of deep dives. When a question pops into my brain, I tend to seek out the answer. I've learned a lot of interesting information over the years. Some things I never figure out. This week's fascinating find came from Secret Relationships.

I knew that this move here is referred to as being the black knight/black rose (or dark knight/dark rose). But I wasn't really sure "why" it was called black knight. My search didn't produce exactly what I was looking for other than the black knight/black rose gets a wish from the person they drink for. It's really a different type of drinking game, and you can be asked to do some very embarrassing things if someone drinks for you. It's not really a pure/selfless act in most cases. I mostly knew all that - though we don't see the "wish" aspect itself often in shows. I still found it interesting because...that means Sung-hyun owes Da-on a wish (or does he? Sung-hyun didn't ask him to drink it after all).

Fantastic Frame

I loved this shot in Secret Relationships this week. There's a light on the chessboard in the back highlighting Jae-min's playing games. There's Jae-min wearing pink with his pink plates and making a dinner that looks great just like he looks great to society. But the trash is peeking out from under the counter, because others are beginning to see him for what he is. We know something he doesn't. We are now up high observing him as we wonder what the next move will be.

Fun Fluorish

This category is my "miscellaneous" category. It could be about anything really. Just something that caught my attention. This week it's the name of the bar in P10Ls.

I know that this bar has a perfectly respectable name in Thai. Something along the lines of "village of food"? (my Thai is super weak; feel free to correct). But all I keep seeing is these college boys drinking in a bar that says "Bang On" which in English....yeah. It makes me chuckle every time I see it. I have the mind of a middle schooler at times. It's probably part of the reason I get along so well with my oldest son.

Favorite Fragment

This is the category for a bit of dialogue I particularly enjoyed. This could be dialogue that is serious, humorous, nerdy, etc. It just caught my attention for whatever reason.

I watch Flirt Milk for one reason - Scrappy Doo and his brat tamer (formerly called Swamp Thing). There is SO MUCH wrong with this show and it's definitely a background watch for me, but Scrappy Doo continues to bring me at least one smile (or fun fit) a week so I typically tune in at some point.

My Queue for the Coming Week:

These are the things that I KNOW I will be watching (unless disaster of some kind strikes).

Let Free the Curse of Taekwondo (Finale)

Secret Relationships (Ep 7-8)

Perfect 10 Liners (Ep 22)

Make Up With Mud (Ep 4)

Love for Love's Sake (Ep 1) (It seemed like this show was on everyone's list during the tag game.)

When Life Gives You Tangerines (Ep 1)

I'll also probably watch the ThamePo finale. I've delayed it long enough. Anything else is up to whim and fancy.

#this got delayed since I crashed #why do we need sleep?#flirt milk #perfect 10 liners #faifawine #make up with mud #eve's fashion #korean bl #thai bl #japanese drama #nabi notices #secret relationships the series #secret relationships

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archduchessgortash · 2 months ago

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Fun fact: Gortash can't see through a Disguise Self spell.

If you're playing as Durge and, like me, wanted to get screenshots of Gortash from other angles in a Durge game and thought, 'I'll just be taller!' You'll be as disappointed as I was. However, my disappointment allowed me to learn more things about Gortash, so it counts as a win.

If you would like to see a comparison of the difference between meeting Gortash as Durge and meeting Gortash as Tav, you can get the Tav scene on a Durge game if you use Disguise Self before talking to him at his coronation.

You can also see Karlach's and Wyll's scenes with him as though playing as their Origins if you leave Durge downstairs and talk to Gortash while controlling one of them instead. It works with everyone else as well, but only Wyll and Karlach get different lines from Gortash. Karlach gets some great one-liners out of him.

Of note: Gale's facial expressions when talking to Gortash are priceless and so completely him. He's dismayed and disgusted throughout the whole interaction.

Also, disguised Durge rolls their eyes when Gortash does his little introduction bow, with a look on their face that I can only describe as smug. No one else does that.

There's definitely an element of failing to explore all possibilities in the coronation scene, as you can trot up there as Halsin or Jaheira, who lack tadpoles, but the Emperor still adds in his two cents, and Gortash can use his Steel Watcher to cause them pain if they call the ceremony a sham. I'm not sure how that's explainable other than as an oversight in development.

I wouldn't recommend using Disguise Self for this scene on a Durge in honor mode, though. If you do, Durge's personal quest doesn't get the associated journal updates because Gortash acts like he doesn't know them, and the scene can't be repeated without reloading a save. You still get most of the main plot-relevant information if you're disguised, just nothing Durge-specific. In fact, the trade-off for knowing less of Durge's past gets you a couple of extra sentences about the next steps of Gortash's plan. You can get the same info from notes you find in his office, but you don't get two lines that give a bit of insight into how messed up this guy truly is mentally. If you've played the scene as Durge already, seeing the Tav scene gives you the knowledge (as the player) that Gortash lies by omission to all origins except Durge.

If you snuck upstairs and read everything in his office, you also know that he's blatantly lying when, regarding Ketheric and Orin's intention to betray, to everyone except Durge, he says: 'I don't suffer the same affliction. In short--you can trust me.' His journals indicate his own intention to rule alone, and that even though he mentions his plans to use 'the vagabonds' against Orin, he writes that he will 'find suitable positions for them in the new order to follow,' which does not exactly lend itself to the assumption that our party will possess any actual power in the 'Golden Reign of Gortash.'

If you pass the Insight Check, the narrator says that 'he fully intends to share his kingdom with you.' If you use Detect Thoughts, he considers you a better option than Orin and thinks, 'We rule as one.' We might be tempted to believe this means he's sincere, but he tries to take our Netherstones at the brain. Thus, we know that ultimately, even if he meant what he said in that moment, it's no more than a surface reading of him. All it takes is a sliver of doubt for him to betray. I know he's scared in that scene, and it's tragic, but it's also proof that in spite of his attempts to elevate himself above Orin and Ketheric, he, too is controlled by his emotions. He thinks that only he knows best and clearly doesn't actually trust anyone but himself, in spite of his assurances that our characters can trust him.

Gortash has definitions of words that are his very own and rather tangled interpretations that are often quite far from the spirit of the word itself and its usual definition. Share could easily be modified into sharing with you only what he believes you deserve, and one isn't hard to interpret as his voice being parroted from your lips. Case in point: he will tell all origins except Durge that enslaving the Sword Coast is 'entirely their fault' (the people's) and that it is 'just.' No explanation whatsoever, as if this is a fact you should simply accept. Yeah. This man has so much emotional damage to unpack.

I am reminded of a far less good-intentioned version of Viktor in Arcane, attempting to control everyone via a hivemind, but in the end, it became no more than an echo-chamber for a single voice. Gortash's so-called 'Ultimate State' would never lead to the progress mentioned in his manifesto of the same name; its inevitable outcome is the exact opposite: stagnation.

Gortash's inability to detect your deception could be another instance of things in Act 3 being less fleshed-out than other acts, or it could be intended. We know that the brain knows who you are, but she's not sharing, apparently.

I need to try using Disguise Self right before confronting the Netherbrain on this save... It would be funny if she didn't give you the Durge-specific lines.

Gortash is only interested in talking to the leader of your group, which is a game mechanic thing, but also addressed slightly when he is approached with non-Origin Karlach after the initial dialogue with Durge or another character. He has no time for lackeys.

One could infer that if Durge isn't leading the group, Gortash has no reason to acknowledge them. If they aren't the leader, they clearly lost too much of themself in Orin's attack to be worth talking to. We know this man does not tolerate submissive behavior in a partner. Only he's allowed to do that. 😏

[My interpretation/headcanon of a more submissive Gortash is me seeing what I think he needs and deciding, since we don't get to explore that aspect of him in-game, that it is also what he secretly wants.]

#bg3 gortash #bg3 durge #gortash musings #baldur's gate 3 #for the record... orin CAN see through a disguise self spell #lil sis always knows you're Durge #long post

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msbunnat · 6 months ago

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sorry if you’ve been asked this before but how do you interpret Zeus in Greek mythology?

I know you like to keep the details of your comic a secret but can you at least elaborate on your perspective about his canon?

Like me personally, I see Zeus as kind of a force of nature, probably cuz he kind of is. He’s the man made character created in order to further understand that which man did not know, like all the gods. And also like the other gods his actions are hard to rationalize cuz they’re so dam inconsistent. One moment he’s treating women as disposable then the next he’s giving Hestia the respect and permission to never marry without any question.

sorry for the Yap sesh lol, love ur art and ur comic btw!

I think this is the first time someone has asked this and I am very happy to answer!

*THIS IS TO BIG SORRY!! ;-;

First, I need to make it clear that the Zeus of ancient myths and my Zeus will be different, even though its based on mythology. I am just contributing with my two cents to this range of fanfics that have existed since ancient times.

I truly believe that all the myths we love and explore are basically fanfics based on a religion and that people in the past used them to spread knowledge, comedies, tragedies and just to have fun while keeping the image of their gods alive. That is why the gods are so inconsistent in mythology, since we have many variations even of a single myth and it will always depend on who is telling the story (I wish it were easier to make fics like this about my religion, but I am afraid of the reaction of extremists).

I interpret Zeus in mythology like all the other gods, I no longer make a distinction based on the prejudice of him being a compulsive pervert, he has many sides. As all gods re natural forces, natural as in animal and plants, but also human feelings and urges.

Zeus has some basic pillars that myths tend to respect: He is THE father, he is the fairest one, he is the executioner, he is seductive, he is good-humored (sometimes he makes some bad jokes kkkkkk), he defends natural balance more than anything and he respects the will of others (this seems ironic, but calm down!!). After reading more myths about him and different interpretations, I understood that this modern view of him as a player is completely distorted and ignores all the other myths he participates (I understand that it became his joke, but… some people take it to seriously). So I started to form my own view of his myths.

Most of his adulteries are consensual and when they are not, they remain in that confusing area of what was once consensual, since it is always mentioned that he seduces (for example, how he turned into an bull or a shower of gold because he knew that his potential partners really liked those things - and I find it hilarious that it seems like he didn't even intend to get Danae pregnant kkkkkk, but it ended up happening). This doesn't mean we can't understand that some of these seductions are abusive (like taking the form of a husband to have a night with Persephone or Alcmena), but saying that he discarded them doesn't seem right either. He often protected his lovers and bastards in the most intelligent way possible and sometimes he just walked away too for the good of others. And in a way, as the father and lord of the sky, he is always watching. I also hate how we take away any woman agency when it comes to Zeus, like, there re myths that they wanted a casual nigth with a god... stop ignoring that!! (the bad thing is that Zeus is also a pilar for fertility ;w; so if he sleep with someone with a uterus... they will get pregnant).

Going to the non-literal side, we have to remember that Zeus is a god and his adultery should not be seen as the same as that of mortal men. He cant acuatlly be with a mortal on the mortal realm and be a husband there... I also want to say: Hera wasn't that jealousy (I think she herself knew that Zeus needed to spread his blood/goodness in the world - yes, a strong interpretation is that Zeus' affairs are a metaphor for spreading goodness). On the contrary, she respected the bastards who faced their challenges and thus deserved to be close to them on Olympus. Hera tested the heroes for two reasons: So they understood that she and Zeus were in charge (so that no one would think they could usurp the throne, and she protected both her and Zeus, as well as Zeus do his best to also prevent the bastards to die and have some help - both Zeus and Hera do all this from a distance, they want to be fair with eachother) and to see if they deserved to be with the immortals.

It seems ironic today, but Zeus respected everyone's will, but it was in the Greek terms (more of in atenians terms, bc we don't have much of the other states). He accepted the decisions of Hestia, Athena, Artemis… I don't remember seeing him laying a finger on them or wanting them to get married. On the other hand, we have versions of him as father of Persephone, 'selling' her (but the myth was about an arranged marriage and I think it makes sense that it's Zeus, since the focus ends up being Demeter's suffering and this encompasses more complex feelings when losing her daughter because her 'husband' gave her away, while he is still respected and loved socially).

Now the bad side of Zeus in how fair he is. He punishes Apollo in some situations, even though I understand why he needed to do it… But he is not shallow enough to be evil for the sake of evil… It left a impression on me when he killed Asclepius and hurt Apollo (obviously), it is sad and I doubt he enjoyed killing his grandson, but if he didn't do it… the balance of the cycle of death would collapse and he is the one who sustains this cycle with the greatest respect. In fact, my theory is that he doesn't face Nyx, not because he fears her, but because no matter who wins the fight, the world will end (if Nyx dies, the night and everything that comes from the night, for the Greeks like sleep and death, will be disturbed / if Zeus dies the throne will be empty and no other god would do what he does, maybe Athena, but the world was too sexist back then to let her become sovereign and I also think she would be colder than Zeus when making decisions and would have no descendants…). But sometimes he just wanted to prank and have fun! So like, no straight answer here.

In the case of Ganymede, I believe that his myth is more one of those in which Zeus is merely a narrative tool, more than an active role. People just started shipping them and that's when the pederasty boom happened, but before that Ganymede was just a boy who was handsome and got a 'dream job' (poor thing…).

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katerinaaqu · 4 months ago

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I remember reading a post from someone who said that for greek retellings, it's more understandable to change elements if the way people perceive these things also change. Meaning, if for example the sexual abuse of war prisoners wasn't seen as rape or cheating when the story was written, it's logical to then change it in the retelling so that sexual abuse never happened in the first place because a modern audience would give a different significance in that act than they would've in ancient greece. Basically, to change the event but keep the same significance/to keep the intended perception from the original. I think it was also in relation to Circe when it was said, and there I think a problem is very apparent in that stance because people are debating to this day whether or not Circe raped Odysseus.

But anyway I think the argument was something like, what had happened with Circe was not intended to be read as rape and it wouldn't be seen as that using the standards of ancient greece, so it's logical then that this aspect was changed in epic the musical.

I don't have a lot of classical knowledge but I found this line of thinking interesting but very ripe with potential discourse because it's hard to prescribe a general 'morality' to an entire civilization or to definitely say what the author of a piece intended something to be or not to be.

But that's what retellings would have been interesting for because it reflects how an author interpreted the story and the way they decided to change or keep certain elements of the original plot hint at how they personally perceived the meaning of the story. Except that nowadays a lot of authors don't really do that anymore, because instead of engaging with the original they just use it as a springboard for their own story they want to tell... for me that's the biggest difference between a true retelling and one that is only in name only, not how loyal it is to the original, but how much you can see the author engaging and reflecting on the original story and their own interpretation of it (which however does mean that the author has to stay loyal to a certain degree to the story ofc)

i think i prefer a greek retelling that puts forward an interpretation i absolutely disagree with but at least it's therefore engaging with the original than one that doesn't at all and just regurgitates the same cookie cutter modern tropes like the girlboss and her broody bad boy love interest but with famous greek characters instead (*coughs* persephone and hades are so often victims of this)

Sorry for that long rambling but I was curious about what you think of this method of construing retellings because I know you had vehement disagreements especially with how Circe was handled and this also just shows the starkly different interpretations so many have taken away from that part in the odyssey. Especially also the discussion of odysseus having also had slaves and whether or not it should or shouldn't be included in a modern retelling when in the past that was custom.

Well the first one is not entirely true. Rapes were more likely common (unfortunately) in antiquity but they were not seen as insignificant (see for example how Locrian Ajax chased after Cassandra and she tried to save herself to the temple of Athena and when she was raped in a sanctuary the others wanted to stone him to death for his crimes). Rapes of free people was never seen as insignificant but of course unfortunately in fever of battle like atrocities were unfortunately expected to happen but of course after women were taken as slaves then the aspect of rape no longer applied due to the fact that they were slaves now but Rapes of citizens even at times of war were never approved. Which is another misconception. Rapes were never approved but at times of war atrocities were unfortunately commonplace. Is similar to murder. Murder was never approved but at times of war even outside battles murders are generally added to the war casualties. But prisoners of war if turned into slaves then yeah they have no rights anymore.

I disagree on that. If you remove the historical background then you already have lost the game. Is like saying if you make a movie about prisoners or something and because you feel bad for them you change the cultural background of 21st century and you make it sound like the prisoners are not inside a room but have a good time in nature. Immediately the whole concept of a 21st century prison is lost and people get the wrong idea of it (sorry for the bad example but it is a way to see how important it is to keep the cultural background and that if you change it just because you feel bad then you twist everything unrepairably)

Odysseus had lack of choice. It is not rape in general but he still had no choice but to bed Circe (with Calypso is clear as day that it was rape) but again I disagree that it made sense what they did in Epic. Epic ignored the basic factors of the story such as Circe. You don't even need to touch the subject of rape or not. Just add the story because like I said the way it was presented not even the story he wanted to make the whole "monster" thing made no sense. It would have made more sense to show him being forced to stay with Ciece and break down in anger afterwards than whatever the hell we got in Epic. He just gets angry after he gets an act of kindness from Circe. Even in that narrative of Epic the Odyssey plot would make more sense in my opinion. You don't need to read it as a rape or comment to it as such. Just show the story. Show how it was done without commentary or something and let the audience decide. I love it how modern retellings claim they want to show "the hidden thoughts of women" and such but when it comes to Odysseus staying in an island with a goddess they are like "fuck it he is a cheater and we are feeling uncomfortable to touch the subject and interpret it as rape so just change it" and the idea is as frustrating as it is wrong in my opinion

Again I disagree because the one change brings the other and they start as a "awwww I feel bad to show slavery in the hands of the heroes so let's just idealized them" and then you get to this that the so called "retellings" barely follow the same direction as the stories they claim to adapt (and sometimes not even that) and we should be grateful for it 🙄. The mentality of "I prefer the twisted version as long as it is presented" like I said it is the equivalent of someone feeling uncomfortable with history of modern day and change the hell outta it and claim it is better like someone make a movie about Nobel and be like "awww but is impossible such a selfless person make dynamite so it wasn't him! Nobel just happened to be there and then Hitler's grandfather made it!" And so people in 23rd century think that Nobel didn't create the dynamite and we are lucky that at least we have Nobel related to the dynamite story even if the retelling has nothing to do with history but yeah at least we have Nobel and dynamite in the same story

See what I mean? It makes no sense

We can choose to "hide behind our finger" as we say in Greece or put our head in the sand and avoid the subjects that make us feel uncomfortable and even worse twist them to the point of making that story unrecognizable or we can for once have the balls to show things as they are supposed to be. It is not a matter what you "should do" is a matter that it is something that was written down and so if one claims to transfer that to screen or to stage or something they can choose to sugar cot it but that is not the story. Much worse if they make the story so unrecognizable that it is teagicomical.

It all started with "sure we can omit this detail because it is not compatibility with our morality" and nowadays we have things that create so many changes like whatever happened with the musical and we feel "grateful" that the story is even remotely following the same direction (and on the musical plot not even that happens anymore! Look what happened with Charybdis for example) so yeah I disagree but I definitely see your point and okay it would definitely be better to show something even if it is not 100% accurate but this logic shows how low the bar is in my opinion and it shows how much we have lost the essence of creating content based on stories. And the misconceptions and fabrications that happen with such material are a direct result of this. That culture and story doesn't really matter or that it shouldn't be shown properly because they make us feel uncomfortable and then the other end of the spectrum happens that people fabricate and demonize history or mythology to make some point for another political message.

I hope this is what answers you expected. I am sorry if I misunderstood something.

#katerinaaqu answers #tagamemnon #greek mythology #what retellings get wrong

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ilynpilled · 2 years ago

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ive been thinking about this a bit and i feel like i have some very different feelings towards certain things and strongly disagree with the implications present in the ways i see them discussed. i do not like to simplify these themes to “vengeance/punishment bad wahh”, because it does not at all feel complete enough to convey my true feelings, or the themes of the text itself for that matter imo, but like… ofc i personally cant read things like cersei’s walk of shame, where she is punished, humiliated, and dehumanized through the one thing she was unfairly condemned for her entire life— jaime’s brutal maiming and torture where he is humiliated, fed things like horse piss which he forces down because he is so thirsty before vomiting it back up, gets repeatedly beaten unconscious, and is nearly driven to passive suicide— theon’s excessive physical and mental torment that would take too long to list that breaks him entirely— and even a man as deeply evil as vargo hoat (who is not at all three dimensional) having his hands and feet and arms and legs cut off, be cannibalized, and even be forced to eat parts of himself, causing the pov character that swore to enact brutal vengeance on him to feel ill and repulsed once he finds out— and experience much, if any, catharsis, personal feelings about these characters aside. asoiaf is a series where the author pretty often deliberately places us inside the heads of bad people that have done terrible things, who some readers may feel a certain hatred for, as they are put through torment. not to make the reader feel good and satisfied about it, but to present it as something that should not really be a thing that we revel in, and encourage us to be critical about what is even gained through what they are going through. even a morally dark antagonist without a pov like joffrey and his death was meant to have elements of tragedy. during, tyrion notes that he is a young boy with fear in his eyes that he had never seen in the eyes of his father. whether you feel a certain way about it (and i am not arguing that you are morally flawed for not sympathizing with a fictional character, this isn’t real life, i am just discussing themes that i am identifying), the goal was not really to provide us with a feel-good “justice at last!” emotion through the brutally violent death of a 13 year old boy. it makes me genuinely wonder how some ppl come away with the idea that this series is intended to be a celebration and glorification of punitive justice. i am not saying justice in general is not a huge theme, and some catharsis, especially for victims, over the death/defeat of their abusers & tormenters is present in the text as well, understandably so, because it can mean safety. take pia smiling through broken teeth when jaime has her rapist executed and presents his head to her while setting a precedent with gregor’s men. some people need to die, and deserve it, but what does that look like? who decides it? why? by contrast, the instance of jaime actually feeling good when he hangs a bunch of random outlaws reads as something more tied to his current relationship to the self and certain selfish desires at this point in his story than real justice, and it is further elaborated upon and taken apart in the book. anyway, all these questions are present and the answers are not near as simple as i often see them made out to be.

it doesn’t feel like to me that most things that can be interpreted as enactments of punitive justice or moments of karma are these epic events that should just make the reader blindly cheer and applaud, or even feel good about. there is a reason that some things go awry (like with oberyn), and it isn’t cynicism. there is nuance, and not in a way where victims are condemned for fighting back, or a pacifist ideology is idealized. there just really isn’t a glorification of brutal punishment, ‘eye for an eye’ vengeance, and the needless causing of suffering. same with a blind upholding of duty and law based around flawed feudalistic constructs. and all these things should not even be conflated. not to mention that punitive justice exists also in a way where it is connected to institutions. take the faith and organized religion for example. the whole process is interrogated: what is sin? what sins are being punished? how? why? and what are the actual effects? be it jaime’s and brienne’s conversations/interactions with a bunch of different tertiary characters in affc, or cersei’s punishment in adwd. at the end of the day, she is punished for her body, for being a woman. she does not suffer “consequences” for her actual wrongs and the suffering she causes. she doesn’t really learn anything, and it will all just make her spiral more. the whole concept of punitive justice gets focused on especially with theon’s entire identity being withered away through torture. he experiences so much torment that there comes a point where he is robbed of his mind and agency. what does the “criminal” learn? how can a person change in these circumstances? what is the point, and why should we feel good about this? he is not even really “punished” for his crimes, and certainly not by people with any moral high ground over him, he is just being brutalized. same is the case with jaime in asos: it is a bad person being brutalized by men even more vile than he is, and they are not doing it because they want to deliver any justice to his victims. also, though the maiming does kickstart crisis with him specifically, it is not the determining factor when it comes to his reformation. this story is not actually saying that people can be, and should be, tortured into becoming better people, and if they can’t the solution is to just axe them. there is nuance, sure, mercy is not something everyone is entitled to in all circumstances. sometimes “mercy” towards certain evil people will lead to the enablement of the suffering of others, even entire populations. there are certainly circumstances where compromise isn’t an option. but, again, i dont think george is ever holding back on actually interrogating the moral quandaries when it comes to identifying cycles and ending them, and he is for sure not treating every single aspect of these conflicts as black and white. even tyrion murdering his father, who purposefully does have a very ironic and humiliating death scene, which is important thematically, doesn’t end in easy and feel-good catharsis, especially for tyrion, which doesn’t equal “oh, tywin should be forgiven and spared”.

all of this is also why i do not really see how events like the fall of house lannister (first of all, we know it is gonna include the likely very brutal deaths of two innocent small children), red wedding 2.0, valonqar etc would be these grand and glorious moments of justice and pay-off, treated as just the good guys finally getting an epic W. they will very likely be filled with tragedy, so i am genuinely curious about where these expectations for this kind of catharsis come from

#long post #and by catharsis i mean reveling in their suffering and feeling like justice was served #valyrianscrolls

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justplainlovely · 8 months ago

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Defending my new favorite ship again because why tf not

I’ll start by stating the obvious (cuz apparently it isn’t a given to some of the folks on here, which is weird, but okay). We DO NOT condone abuse in any form. With that said, an explanation is not an excuse and many folks, almost all I’d venture to guess, have been abusive at some point in their lives (I know I wouldn’t have been on the receiving end of so much abuse if that were untrue - hurt people hurt people). We also DO NOT condone racism. I get the feeling people assume malice on the Ghoulcy shipper side because of disgusting comments that were made long ago about Rey and Finn (which was a similar dynamic that, I’d argue, made more sense than a Lucy/Max relationship but that’s also my 🌈 heart shipping him with Dane). These disclaimers also extend to the villains, which Barb is one of. We DO NOT condone misogynoir here either cuz while I haven’t seen much racism on Lucy/Max, I have seen a surprising amount about Barb. Being a fictional villain does not allow for any kind of bigotry, NOTHING does, but I digress.

So on Ghoulcy, I’ll say this. The foreshadowing is layered heavily throughout the story. Whether they are intended to be friends or partners is up for debate, but the writing makes it quite clear that these characters are destined to team up, bringing us to the end of Season 1 when Lucy walks off with Cooper. I’m brought back to what Wilzig said at the beginning of the season, when Lucy was by herself camping and he warned her several times to go home before finally saying:

“The question is, will you still want the same things when you’ve become a different animal altogether?”

Lucy is very distraught at the end of the season after learning everything she does about her dad and Vault-tec and, for her to return to the vaults and live out her days there, with or without Max, seems like a stretch when things are all said and done. This can be poignantly compared to Persephone going to the underworld (in Lucy’s case, the surface world) - she has eaten the proverbial pomegranate.

This isn’t the only dynamic which Ghoulcy has been compared to, either. I have also seen them compared to Beauty and the Beast, which brings Max back into the dynamic often as a Gaston. Personally, I don’t see that, but if he turned out to be a villain it would be an interesting storyline and Aaron Moten could play it off very well. But bringing Max back in, something about his character to me feels very incomplete and I’m not sure if a love interest is the way forward for him. We only know one of his wants:

“I want to hurt the people who hurt me.”

And at the end of the season it’s like he seems less convinced by that, even though it’s hard to guess exactly what he’s thinking when he is knighted (something he should want, but judging by his expression he seems disenchanted by it) and finds Lucy has left. Part of the reason I ship him and Dane is because Dane has been a rock to him, one who he can probably trust with doubts about the Brotherhood. But returning to Ghoulcy, Cooper has been exactly where Lucy is before. He was betrayed by the one person he trusted most and what did he love most about Barb before they divorced (remember there was talk about alimony in the first episode - not sure how people forgot that):

“I know you always try to do the right thing. That’s what I love about you.”

Who embodies that better than Lucy, I ask you. (Cooper very well could still care about his ex-wife so take that with a grain of salt) But when it comes down to it, and we don’t know who initiated the divorce so it’s up for interpretation like any good story, part of Cooper died when he listened in on Barb’s Vault-Tec meeting just like part of Lucy is dying after she learns what her father did to her mother and Shady Sands.

“If my dad found out that I destroyed an entire community to save him... that'd break his heart.”

That is likely what’s on repeat for her when she learns about the city. And when Cooper offers her his company to New Vegas, his tone notably softens. I think when they first met, the vile things Cooper did to Lucy made her realize very quickly what she would have to do to make it on the surface. Cooper is intrigued, maybe even put off by, her genuine goodness. And it’s not just that, but he sees part of his past self and seeks to kill it any chance he can get. I’d argue that’s a large part of why he’s so cruel to her (him shooting the Vault Boy poster was more than just a fuck you to Vault-Tec). And likewise, Lucy shows him that embracing his humanity again is not so bad - whatever morsel he has left. It begins with trust, though, whatever they have. When she follows him, he has his back turned to her and is walking ahead with the dog. Normally, he wouldn’t put himself in such a vulnerable position, but he is showing her that he believes in her golden rule. Or more accurately that he believes that she believes in it.

Anyway, I dare not risk turning this into an actual essay. It’s already long enough. I’m interested in exploring other aspects that I might have missed if y’all have any thoughts.

#ghoulcy #fallout tv series #lucy x cooper #cooper howard

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ducktracy · 10 months ago

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How did you became a fan of looney tunes, particularly the porky and daffy shorts?

SO! THIS IS GOING TO BE A LONG ASK because i get asked this a lot (and have talked about it pretty frequently lately), and i feel every time i answer i have 80 explanations. all of them are true! but i kinda want a repository so i can reference back to my thoughts if and when the question comes up, because i love talking about it. saying this now because usually when i intend to answer an ask quickly, that's never how it goes.

TLDR for both is: i was bored one day, saw Boomerang was airing the shorts, remembered hearing good things about the shorts and was immediately swept away. a series of rabbit holes clinched my obsession. as for Daffy and Porky, i find them intensely interesting and they're also some of the most i've ever found myself reflected in a fictional character, Daffy especially.

NOW THE LONGER ANSWERS!

SO. as i mentioned above, there's about 80 different explanations i could give for what got me into Looney Tunes. (this is not true and heavy hyperbole, but it is true that my interest was clinched in a number of ways). the most objective of those is that, i was very curious about learning the history and production of cartoons, especially because i had aspirations of making my own cartoons one day and working in the industry. at the time, there was (and still kind of is...) a popular animation blog by a, uh, let's say disgraced cartoonist. said disgraced cartoonist had a blog where he would discuss animation technique, history, and in spite of knowing he was disgraced and very publicly disavowing him to the point of overcompensation, i drank the Kool-Aid and fell into the trap of reading his blog pretty religiously and absorbing a bunch of information that i have now spent years unlearning and have no interest in returning to.

BUT ANYWAY. said cartoonist's blog discussed LT quite often as a pinnacle of great cartooning. i never actually went out of my way to check out any of the shorts mentioned--it was just sort of an understanding of "oh wow, these are important. got it." and not putting the research in

come September 2019 (the 13th to be exact because i'm neurotic and memorize dates). i'm home alone for the weekend and bored out of my mind. channel surf. see Boomerang is showing LT shorts. think, "hey, i've spent years reading about how good this stuff is, i didn't watch it very often as a kid, let's see if the rumors about this being good are true." AND THEY WERE! the first short i saw was Bob McKimson's Upswept Hare which is actually not one i go out of my way to watch often, it's whatever, but i thought it was amazing that i was able to watch cartoons from 1953 on my TV. even though my obsession with golden age cartoons is recent, i've had a lifelong nostalgia affliction--i've been interested in things that are old for as long as i can remember.

after that was Rabbit Transit which, wow, 1947?? that's even older! and even COOLER!!! and it's true! Friz Freleng's Bugs is now my favorite director's interpretation of the character. i was amazed at how funny it was, how fast everything was, how lush the music sounded and how intricate the animation was. i genuinely did not know animation could be that smooth and lush. it was seriously mind blowing. likewise, seeing these McKimson and Freleng Bugs shorts defied the notion i had for the longest time where i only thought Bugs was just a terminally bored beacon of invincibility, since those were the shorts i remembered most from my childhood. Rabbit Transit ends with Bugs being dragged away by cops kicking and screaming--i thought it was HILARIOUS and so different than what i was used to. i really wanted to see more Bugs Bunny and see how my notions of what he was continued to be challenged.

another short included in the line-up was A Pest in the House, which is one of the major dominos in this entire domino effect. i didn't watch very much LT as a kid (only just on DVDs during road trips, but i recall seeing a few on Cartoon Network or Boomerang at some point in my life), but i do recall having a particular dislike towards Daffy since he was mean. also, he was not a cute and cuddly cat and/or rabbit like Sylvester and Bugs, which did not appease my child mind, who loved cats and rabbits. (my childhood cat looked like Sylvester so i've always been fond of him, i do recall owning a Sylvester balloon on a stick at one point as a small child, so yay?)

needless to say, my hopes were not very high. Daffy Duck, who cares, whatever. so, of course, finding out that Daffy is small and cute here and acting amicably, smiling, and being obnoxious was VERY surprising and novel to me. the bit where he's cracking up and can't even tell the poor hotel patron a joke because he's too busy laughing and sobbing and screaming and then FORGETS IT was my canon event. my "oh god, i have never related more to anything than i do right now in this moment." (this is still true, as this exact thing happened to me on a Zoom call recently and i was literally sobbing cracking myself up at a stupid joke i thought of that literally isn't funny at all, and i kept thinking of that scene which just made me laugh harder).

that, in conjunction with this scene and how QUICKLY IT MOVED, how SMOOTHLY, how ENERGETIC the music is, the hilarity that is Elmer's "?" above his head... i HAD TO SEE MORE. i was so interested to learn that Daffy wasn't just a self-obsessed greedy miser all the time. i had no idea cartoons could move this way. you can time the action to the music?? that's GENIUS! so A Pest in the House was a very big break through moment for me and kickstarted my infatuation with Daffy Duck.

another breakthrough was watching Falling Hare for the first time thanks to Boomerang as well. it was the first Bob Clampett cartoon i saw as a cognizant adult, and i knew to look out for it because this disgraced cartoon creator certainly loved to make his bootlicking of Clampett very, very, very well known. i thought that it was amazing to be seeing a short from 1943 on TV!!! SO ANCIENT! so old! who knew they made cartoons that old! and, most importantly, who knew they made cartoons that old THAT MOVE AS GORGEOUSLY AS THEY DO HERE!!!! GEEEEEEZ, you wanna talk about never seeing cartoons move like that before... and not only that, i loved the humor, i loved the characterizations, i loved even the most hokey gags in it. i decided that to really jumpstart my interest in LT, rather than waiting around to catch Boomerang airings, i'd binge the entire Clampett chronology. i did indeed do this, and it wasn't until i got to around 1942 or so that i finally began to branch out and watch other directors

THERE ARE STILL MORE BRANCHES TO THE STORY! SOMEHOW! while i wasn't much of a LT fan before this, i WAS a Tom and Jerry fan. was a very big fan as a kid. i didn't go out and watch the shorts as an adult, but i did listen to the soundtracks. i recall listening to one of the soundtracks, and a comment on it talked about comparisons between Scott Bradley, who did the MGM scores, and Carl Stalling, who did WB's. i was like "huh, wonder who this Stalling fella is" and looked up one of his music compilations. found one from the '30s, went "there's such a thing as Depression-era music scores??" and listened to it.

one of the comments on that video gave a timestamp and mentioned a Porky's Romance. i went to the timestamp, listened to the song, and thought it was one of the most beautiful things i had heard in my life. i still have a screen recording saved in my camera roll from when i first listened to it. i thought, this is so gorgeous, i have to see what cartoon this is from.

and lo and behold, the cartoon about Porky Pig offing himself because he got rejected in his marriage proposal was the first Porky short i saw as an adult. similar to my Bugs and Daffy revelations, there were SO many things that intrigued me. largely: I HAD NO IDEA THEY MADE THE CARTOONS IN BLACK AND WHITE! seeing these beloved cartoon characters in black and white was the coolest thing to me! i had to learn more! likewise, i never knew that Porky was fat! or that these shorts would deal with such dark subject matter! or that they could be so representative of their time with the music styling and background design!

SO, all of these sort of culminated together. i wanted to see more LT, i wanted to see more cartoons that challenged my perception of them. i wanted to see more old things. shocking things. beautiful things. my main path into LT was binging a bunch of the Bob Clampett cartoons, which coincided with my interest in seeing more Porky shorts and more black and white shorts since the first 4 years of his career were nothing BUT black and white Porky cartoons. i also recall checking out Porky's Duck Hunt around the same time i watched Romance for the first time, but i'm not sure why. i think i was reading up on the Wikipedia article for A Pest in the House, learned that Daffy used to be crazy, and wanted to see it for myself. i also fell in love with the novelty of seeing him HOOHOO and jump around and act a fool, as well as the very present 30s-isms in that short.

i began to branch out to other directors, a lot of my introductions boiling down to "i saw this on Google and it looked interesting" (i know that's how i discovered Yankee Doodle Daffy). there was a period in early October 2019 where i was beginning to lose a little interest and fixating on other shows instead, but i watched Porky in Wackyland for the first time and, well, HERE I YAM! likewise, seeing praise about Baby Bottleneck and The Great Piggy Bank Robbery got me to jump ahead in my self imposed Clampett chronology and watch those for the first time (October 18th, 2019, a day that will forever live in infamy). needless to say, it was one of the smartest decisions of my life since those are two of my favorite cartoons of all time. Baby Bottleneck impressed me so much that it literally gave me heart palpitations SO SEVERE i genuinely considered calling my parents to tell them i might need to go to the hospital. i seriously thought i was having a heart attack. no cartoon has ever made me feel like that since. that was a defining "i need to do this" moment for me. again, i reiterate, talk about not knowing the possibilities of how animation could move.

and from thereon out, i continued to go on my little rabbit holes. i started my reviews in December 2019 as an excuse to motivate myself to see every Looney Tunes cartoon ever made (which is a mission i completed on December 31st, 2022.) i've seen and even own some of the animation art from the cartoons themselves in person, i've had relatives of the directors praise my work, i can directly owe my job to LT (and am known as the LT person--specifically, the pig and duck person--by my bosses, coworkers, and peers), i've received job offers from Warner Bros... all because i got bored one day and decided to channel surf.

it's been nearly 5 years now. September 2019, i was in a very low point in my life. i was recovering from a very messy and rather traumatic break-up, there was some related drama affecting my friendships, i had just started college and was missing all the friends and relationships i'd built in high school, and i was really grappling with my mental health as a result. this introduction couldn't have come at a perfect time. i went from being despondent and listless and depressed to actively looking forward to waking up and discovering a new cartoon to watch because it meant i'd learn something new. i really look back on that time fondly. i cringe at a lot of what i was saying and doing back then, as i've learned so much more and matured a lot since then, but i'm still so lucky to have had that time in my life. and even though i'm 5 years in, and even though i've calmed down in a lot of aspects, that excitement never really goes away and i don't forsee it doing so. i can tell this is going to be a lifelong fixture for me. i don't have any doubt about it. calling it a "hyperfixation" or "interest" seems to temporary and diminutive; too many areas of my life have been affected by it and it's really just ingrained in me now, and will continue to do so. i'm so lucky for that.

SO! TO GET COMPARATIVELY LESS PHILOSOPHICAL BUT STILL RELEVANTLY SO, answering your question about Daffy and Porky specifically

as i talked about above, much of my investment in them comes from really identifying with the both of them. Daffy a bit moreso, but certainly Porky as well. i find myself in Daffy's exuberance, passion, impulsiveness, his emotionality, his... shall we say "neuroticisms", always living life at a high frequency, being a very all or nothing person, his often fleeting attention span and endeavors, his obnoxiousness, good humor, his charisma (this feels so conceited of me to say but i've had multiple people told me i'm charismatic--i don't entirely believe so but i think it is worth bringing up, if nothing else), his at-times overly trusting demeanor. all of these descriptions are more in line with the 40s Daffy rather than the Daffy most folks know, though there is some overlap and i can't say there aren't some traits of the later Daffy i don't see myself in either. namely impulsiveness, a tendency to be a bit overbearing, etc... that's why i can relate so much to him, because he's not just a character who i relate to for positives.

Porky, i can relate a lot to his idiosyncrasies, his stubbornness, his obliviousness, a general awkwardness, [usually] good heart, innocence, occasionally hare trigger temper (i do not consider myself an angry person thank goodness and i'd definitely consider myself more optimistic than most, but if i am mad i am very mad and have a very hard time concealing it), which leads me to my next point in also being pretty transparent, a little bit of a stutter, and so forth

me being able to relate to the both of them certainly does help in pushing them up the ranks, but my enjoyment doesn't hinge on that because i'm thankfully able to see them as their own characters (and i think if i just saw them as reflections of Me the whole time, it'd be a bit uncomfortable). that's the biggest draw: their dynamic is so intensely interesting to me and unlike anything else offered by any of the other characters in the cartoons.

i'm mostly interested in the cartoons and the people behind the scenes rather than the characters, which is funny to say since character and characterization is super important to me. maybe this'll change! but as of right now, i don't really care to think up any headcanons for The Tasmanian Devil or Pepe le Pew or what have you. i'm namely interested in the characters if it directly relates to their context with their creators. i was just saying the other day that i tend to be averse to things that have the LT cast in a big ensemble, even if you remove the "oh they're a happy family" aspect from it. i worded it more succinctly here:

Daffy and Porky are the only real exceptions to this, and it's likewise because they're some of the only characters who weren't bound to a certain director. Tex Avery only ever directed 3 Daffy cartoons, and Friz Freleng, as much as i love the Porkys he did direct and wish he did more, didn't seem very interested in pursuing Porky the same as he did with his other characters like Yosemite Sam or Sylvester (both of whom being some of my favorites, Sylvester ranks behind Daffy and Porky for me in terms of favorites. amazing character.) this likewise offers them a lot of freedom, as they're subject to more interpretation by more directors

their dynamic is the most varied out of any, and i love that. some shorts they're roommates and work together. others, they want each other's blood. my favorite is a good blend of both. but, no matter what dynamic they're in, they still feel like Daffy and Porky. they're flexible and malleable but not completely lost in who they are. i've expressed many times that they're the only two characters who can have a genuine sort of camaraderie between them in the shorts where they do and have it feel natural rather than "get a load of these guys teaming up!". in my eyes, they have the best chemistry, they play off of each other so well. my favorite Porky shorts and my favorite Daffy shorts are always the ones where they're with the other. there are genuinely no Porky and Daffy shorts i dislike outside of the sadly usual "this is racist garbage", but thankfully that's only limited to a very select handful.

much of it likewise comes down to novelty. when i first began getting into their shorts, i was AMAZED that i had never heard anyone talk about their dynamic before. granted, i probably wasn't looking, but all my life it's always been Bugs and Daffy Bugs and Daffy Bugs and Daffy--i still, maybe selfishly, think the Porky and Daffy shorts are 50x more interesting and fun to watch and it was just MINDBLOWING to me how i'd never seen anyone bring this up! how is nobody talking about how varied their dynamic is? why is nobody talking about how well they play off each other here? why is nobody talking about how funny this is? it's a feeling of sort of stumbling into a hidden diamond mind. i really like that feeling. it's why the '30s and '40s shorts are my preferred favorites; they're less talked about, which means i have more room to shill them and maybe give someone the same reaction it's given me. i love that aspect of exploration.

i've been typing this out for nearly 1 hour and 25 minutes straight, and so my steam is finally beginning to run out. there's more i could say on just how much Porky and Daffy mean to me, but that's the general jist. i identify with them both a lot, i sincerely love their chemistry, i think they're one of the most interesting cartoon duos of all time, i want more people to discover them, and i just love watching them. Mel Blanc's Daffy voice is one of the most beautiful sounds i've ever heard and i'm not even exaggerating. i have so much fun picking apart Porky's stutter and seeing how it varies depending on the voice directing, and i love catching certain stutters that Mel Blanc does that feel very true to life/like something i've heard out of my own mouth before. i love how they have a bit of an underrepresented past (Porky moreso; i've really fallen in love with the Joe Dougherty era shorts). they're just so interesting and offer so much, no matter what your interest is.

WOW. this may have been the lengthiest ask i've ever answered. but, ye ask and ye shall receive, so i hope ye received!

#anonymous #asks #ref

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