#'why just the queer ones? why not the straight ones?'

[kiirotoao]

An argument I see against Byler that irks me, specifically about Will’s storyline, is that some people think that Will’s story is about him accepting himself. Acceptation is absolutely not part of his storyline, and here’s why.

Will has been established as a queer character. Quick as it was, Joyce mentioned Lonnie’s remarks about Will in the very first episode of season 1. Will has also been drafted as a kid dealing with his sexuality. Will knows about what people say about him, and he doesn’t seem to outwardly fight it, alongside much other forms of confrontation towards himself.

Will deals more with the struggle of being different, not of misunderstanding, not of doubting, being.

A great contrast in another series that shows a character learning to accept himself is none other than Nick Nelson in Heartstopper (Webtoon or Netflix - but for the sake of finding scene packs more easily, though, I will be quoting from the Netflix adaptation).

Nick outwardly deals with uncertainty regarding his sexuality. He’s covered in doubtful characters’ judgements, clearly a jock of whom are stereotypically straight, and as Elle would say it, he’s “the straightest person I have ever seen.”

He’s not established with a queer lens. In fact, for a very long time, Charlie thinks that he has no chance with Nick because he doesn’t think that Nick could ever like him like that. But then, in comes Nick’s perspective. He realizes that he’s getting really close to Charlie, and his mom tells him that he’s “much more himself” around Charlie. Then, of course, the meme of Nick taking the “am I gay?” quiz and crying over his result. And then in comes the day after his and Charlie’s first kiss when Nick expresses that he’s “so confused,” not that he didn’t like it, it’s just difficult for him when he’s only ever seemed to like girls before.

That is how you explore an arc of discovering one’s sexuality: show confusion from other characters, self-doubt, and how the character feels working through it. Will Byers has received no such treatment.

He’s not confused, self-doubtful, nor shown working through his sexuality. It’s just always been, and the other characters around him reinforce that. The fact that other characters make remarks. The fact that other characters know without Will telling them anything. The fact that Will has never continued returning any affection to a girl who showed interest in him. The fact that Will never gets a girlfriend. The fact that we know that Will was making that painting for Mike alone.

Plus, if being accepted is Will’s whole storyline culmination, where does he go now that Jonathan in season 4 has accepted him and promises to love him no matter what? That’s it? He’s going to have nothing greater happen to him in season 5 and/or they’re going to reinforce a point they already did so sweetly? Yeah. I mean, I’m not a writer, but, yeah. Sure.

Byler is endgame because Will is going to learn that he no longer needs to just accept himself but see himself in who he is.

[glisten-inthedark]

Ah, they're never going to write Byler aa endgame, a show like Stranger Things is never going to write the man couple as not straight.

(literally just read that so I have to address because this stressed me out).

Say with me, children.

Will Byers has been queer coded since episode 1. That's the story they've been meaning to tell since season freaking one.

We can actually see how Mike and Will's relationship is different from the start, from the very first episode. They make a point of showing us how their connection isn't the same as Mike's relationship with Dustin and Lucas.

And then, lo and behold.

The queer coded character is not only queer, but deeply in love with his best friend.

(Inserts angry Joy voice from Inside Out 2 here). Now TELL. ME. WHY. WOULD. THEY. FUCKING DO THAT?

I'm being serious.

Why in the world the show would make Will so in love with someone he's willing to sacrifice his own happiness for them? WHY?

Because let's be fucking for real, these writers can solve Mike and El's relationship without having to resort to a third party interference, we've seen them fucking do it already (hello, Lumax). Will didn't need to be fucking in love with Mike to help their relationship, as his best friend he'd be able to do without breaking his own heart in the end.

So yeah, sure, the gay kid who doesn't believe he'll ever be in love (gets to fall in love) but also doesn't believe he'll get a happy ending because he believes to be a mistake will in fact, end up alone or in a shallow relationship with some other boy that THEY COULD HAVE PRESENTED LAST FUCKING SEASON BECAUSE HELLO, ARGYLE EVERYONE?

That's the moral, they unnecessarily make the gay kid who has been through hell in love with the straight friend even though it serves no actual purpose to the plot, said kid never finds love and either ends up alone or in a some random relationship he doesn't even want.

Thanks for watching Stranger Things y'all, everyone gets a happy ending.

Except for Will Byers

[respectthepetty]

Pride Petty Watch (SOTUS) 2/5

Since so many people voted for the two blacklisted shows I was supposed to watch during Pride, it unlocked the wild card of me rewatching my sworn enemy SOTUS. I don't remember anything about the show, and the only thing I truly took away from it was hating Krist for the last eight years, so I'm settling in and revisiting the past to figure out why I forgot about every single plot point of this show including that Jan was in it and that Kongpob x M were the perfect ghost ship.

I left off praying that Arthit gets meaner before he gets nicer, which I consider as getting better before he gets worse, but since I'm getting Dangerous Romance flashbacks flash forwards, I doubt Arthit can commit to bullying Kong much longer before he turns full simp.

How am I not supposed to root for Kong x M when M looks so devastated every time Kong leaves his side to go talk to May. I know M likes May, but the way these scenes are set up, it's hard not to think that M likes Kong and he is in pain when everyone else gets his friend's time since he has known Kong SINCE JUNIOR HIGH!

Thrilled that Wad is always ready to lay hands first and ask questions later. Also excited that he is motivated by pettiness just like me, so the only reason he is playing in the tea product placement game is just to spite the seniors. Petty work makes the dream work. Amen.

The pink milk in this series needs to be studied because on one end of the spectrum, we in BL Land know the pink milk is a staple of a Thai BL (which is slowly coming back in Last Twilight, Only Friends, Addicted Heroin and I Saw You in My Dream), but on the other end, the show itself treats the pink milk like those dumb hot takes from people asking if drinking fruity cocktails makes a man a fruit, or if sucking on popsicles makes a man want to suck a dick, or if eating food in general makes a man queer. It just feels as if this show treats Arthit that way every time he orders it, like "GOTCHA, QUEER!"

If I were that food vendor, and Kong started popping out with these little nuggets while Arthit just kept threatening him, their business would be all up in the group chat because I'd be messaging all my friends that these two gay guys were practically foreplaying right in front of my salad pork skewers.

So of course Arthit would show up to the game just to stand there and glare at a man drenched in sweat from playing a hard game of basketball like the internalized-homophobic asshat he is.

God, some things never change.

WE GOT COCA-COLA MONEY?!

I gasped not because of the note on this conversation but because of the comment coming from AN OPENLY GAY MAN on the hazers squad. I am not Thai, so the only way I can relate to the hazers is through Greek life (fraternities and sororities), and even a long long time ago, I knew openly gay men in frats, and they pulled ALL the girls since girls felt safer around them than the straights, but the look Prem and Arthit are giving Tuta when he says this is what I'm laser-focused on because they show toleration rather than acceptance. I'm taking those looks personally.

Arthit continues to say Kong's face is annoying, but he never says it's ugly. Sir, I see your gay awakening on the horizon.

AND M WITH THE FUCKING LOOKS AGAIN! He is looking at Kong on stage then looking at May looking at Kong on the stage, and I know where this is going, but my god does it feel like M is sad because he believes Kong is straight and wouldn't reciprocate the feelings he has for his best friend SINCE JUNIOR HIGH!

I have made it clear that I do not like Krist (I believe his acting is flimsy but I can't even act like I like people, so who am I to judge), but I don't think the people behind the filming of this show liked him either because these opening title cards between the parts of the episodes are doing him dirty.

Excuse me, little stage presenter, I need to know what the fuck was going on with this performance that they had a western theme with modern guns. Was it Big Sean's "I Don't Fuck With You"?

And why is Jan looking like Taylor Swift in "Teardrops On My Guitar"? This show was in 2016, but the styling and hair are in 2003.

Now the judges are coming for Kong, and Lord knows he is going to answer in the most uncontroversial way because Kong refuses to pick a side against hazing and the boy he likes being punished by.

*eye roll* I did not think I'd make it here this quickly, but I'm on Arthit's side because Kong IS annoying. Jan's character looks full-on Stockholm Syndrome into the camera when Kong is answering, yet homeboy is just over there giving the most ridiculous reason of "our hazers have their reasons for hazing us" and now I see the direct line to GMMTV forgiving parents for abuse (Double Savage!).

Kong can play basketball really well. He remembers everyone's name. The whole class wanted him to be president. He is great in school. Now he is the Freshy Moon. Marsha, Marsha, Marsha. I hate this kid.

M, my most beloved, now I see why you're quiet a lot.

I appreciate M for also stating that Kong is just great at everything without trying, but it also feels that he is hyping up his boy because he has been IN LOVE WITH HIS SINCE JUNIOR HIGH!

In a room full of people, only Kong notices that M is unhappy, and now I see the direct they-are-married-but-not-a-couple line to Peaceful Property. New understands these roles well.

THE QUESTIONS THAT NEED ANSWERS! Can you run 54 laps, Arthit? Can you squat 200 times, Prem? These freshmen won everything, yet Arthit is still being a dickwad, and he just got his ass off of school probation. Bold move, sir! I want the juniors to suffer. Except for Bright. My boy has never done anything wrong, and if he did, he didn't.

I saw an umbrella in The Ex-Morning pilot trailer, and if that show doesn't give me a scene of these two arguing in the rain over the dumbest shit, then what is the point?

All those people watching Arthit, and none of his boys could run with him? If the purpose of hazing is unity, obviously the juniors didn't get that memo when they were being hazed as freshmen, so why continue the traditions that they don't even abide by?! Arthit is better than me because I would have crawled my ass back to my dorm before accepting their help SINCE THEY DIDN'T EVEN RUN LAPS! And now this little freshman wants to be up in his face. What's the point of the umbrella now?! He is a boy in a BL who has been in the rain for hours. HE IS ALREADY GOING TO DIE NO THANKS TO YOU UNHELPFUL DOUCHE NOZZLES!

I was just on Arthit's side, but then the show decided to tell me that entire seniors-hazing-the-juniors thing was a setup, and mixed with most of the images on Arthit's door being black-and-white, and one of those images being Charles Manson's Rolling Stone cover, I'm back to hating him again. So in case anyone is still following along, I now hate both of the leads. Can I get M and Bright back?

Kong says several times that Arthit can punish him, then he irons Arthit's clothes. If this show would just lean into the kink of it all, I would embrace everything about it. If Kong could just be a masochist dom, I would be delighted. JAPAN, COME HERE RIGHT NOW! Fuck remaking Love in the Air! Remake this kinky shit instead!

This is what a sado sub looks likes and Japan would know exactly what to do with him. Now I'm mad that I'm watching the babygirl-fication of a perfectly good jerk.

Well hello there you two! You wanna make out before going to the hospital? Maybe keep it all a secret from everybody else? I'm so pissed that I can't remember this plot now because I don't think they will be a thing BUT THEY WOULD BE PERFECT!

And I'm still rooting for my boy M to get his best friend since unlike Arthit, M can at least acknowledge that his friend is pretty to his face. No internalized homophobia here but probably because M isn't even a homo. I've sailed ships with less.

😬🥴🙃 Thank you subtitler for keeping the word. It's important. So are the looks that I'm taking personally. And BRIGHT IS THE ONE TO SAY IT! So I like M now and only M. Everyone can eat dirt and choke.

Arthit's nickname means warmth? I'm starting to remember why I forgot this show. Like Celine Dion, "It's All Coming Back to Me Now"

And I hate it.

[hyrulesfav]

i think. at the basis of all n'daku realizes (or more specifically their queer ones), they want to consume their lovers in a way. vira's accent accent supposedly makes aimil's name come out as "meal" and if thats not a sign that your wife of (enter outrageously long time period from before the earth) years wants you idk what is

[thatbuddie]

"eddie isn't queer/gay," you say. "he is straight in canon, so him being gay is just a head canon. it's ok for others to think of him as straight because that's what he is."

let's ignore for a second the fact that eddie has never ever ever ever not even once, said in canon that he is a heterosexual very straight guy. seriously!!! he has never once said it!!! if i am "assuming" he's gay then you are also "assuming" he is straight even though he has never once said it!!

how do you think we got bi buck as canon? like i am serious right now, answer the question. how do you think we go bi buck canon? evan buckley was never conceived to be a bisexual man at the beginning of 911. the reason we have evan buckley as a canonically bisexual character today is because us, queer fans of 911, interpreted him and headcanoned him as bisexual. i would go even further and say that it was us, BUDDIE FANS, who interpreted him and headcanoned him as bi. even before the writers were explicitly writing him as bisexual. we read his actions and his story and his identity and said: "this is a bi character!" and the writers looked back and realized that it made sense! and so they started writing him explicitly and canonically as bi.

was it wrong of us to headcanon a character as bisexual then? like for all intents and purposes we were reading a "straight" character as bi. were we doing something wrong? how come you are not complaining/chastising us/shaming us for how we took evan buckley, an otherwise straight character, and saw him as bi? is it because it now serves a purpose to you that he is bi?

also, taking characters that aren't confirmed queer and reading them as queer is what the queer community, and specifically the queer fandom community, has been doing for DECADES. look up the history of queer coding, i am begging you. it has been through the means of queer coding and the perseverance of people that are engaged in it that actual queer representation in media has increased. and let me tell you right now, eddie diaz is, undoubtedly and undeniably, one of the most queer coded characters there is. whether you think this queer coding is conscious by the writers or not. eddie diaz is queer coded.

and i want everyone who says things like "eddie diaz is not a queer character. he is straight in canon. it's wrong to assume a character is queer without the character saying so" to know that this is exactly what straight and homophobic people say. you are using the SAME rhetoric that has been used to shame queer fans for decades for seeing themselves and their experiences in fictional characters of all types. in fact, us, queer fans (and again BUDDIE FANS), were told so many times by straight fans that we were wrong for reading buck as bisexual. and where are we now? where did reading buck as bi take us? oh yeah, to having bi buck in canon.

so please just stop with the "eddie isn't queer in canon" comments. if you don't want to interpret eddie as queer then that is your prerogative. i will be judging why that is, for sure, but it is your right. but be honest about it. it has nothing to do with whether or not he is straight (which hasn't been said) or queer coded (which he so obviously is seeing as so many of us can very easily read him as queer). it's a personal preference and you're not engaging with canon better because of it.

[hysteriafossil]

guess who finished tlok tonight and immediately had this come to him in a vision!!!!

[thehealingsystem]

currently crying as I'm writing this but uh I reeeaallyy wonder when people are gonna decide to leave us lesbians with unconventional gender identities alone. please leave the teenage bigender lesbian alone. they're a young girl in high school who likes other girls whom their mother will never accept and has to hide their relationships, and forever hide their heartache after they fail. please leave the transmasc lesbian alone. people will whisper behind his back about how much of a tranny he is while expressing disgust when he holds hands with a girl. please leave the nonbinary lesbian or just transfem lesbian alone whom is too masc or man-leaning for your taste, whether that be because they're amab or a nonbinary guy, they're trying super hard just to live and can barely pass and is forced to hide or else people will accuse them of invading spaces or being a predator. I know you won't ever see us as deserving of the lesbian label- no matter how much we present like a cis girl or how much we've been discriminated against for our attraction, from my experience- but we're just trying to make it by too. I'm tired of just trying to convince people I'm allowed to exist. not be in spaces, be in communities, exist. please leave me alone. please leave trans lesbians alone.

[beanghostprincess]

Finding hilariously ironic how most of Sanji's perv jokes end up being extremely trans-coded to some extent only because the joke is longer than it should be.

The "guy with a woman's body" joke has been a thing for ages now, but it usually ends after the "haha I have booobs" joke. Sanji extends it to "I want to stay in this body forever. It feels right. I don't want to give it back". Which could still be read as some perverted stuff, but I don't think any man would agree with that. No matter how much of a pervert he is. Because usually being perceived as a woman is something they refuse to go through although they like being in possession sexually of a woman's body (a type of excitement Sanji actually shows, not by being that much aroused by it but being comfortable with it? Which is... A different approach to the joke).

Sanji has made the typical "going into the girl's changing room/bathroom" joke a couple of times, but in Egghead he goes all the way to be extremely frustrated about not being able to do so? And it is obviously different than wanting to keep Nami's body forever. It can still be seen as frustration for not being able to see girls naked. But. But. The fact that the length of the joke increases? The fact that it's way longer than it should be for an average "haha boobs" joke? You know what I mean.

Not to mention his whole arc during the time-skip and how a simple (both transphobic and misogynistic, by the way) joke, goes all the way to show us that Sanji is indeed comfortable in more feminine clothes and environment, until he's pretty much forced to snap out of his fantasy to go back to the crew. But he wasn't having a bad time at all. And it is intended to be a joke, but it's... Longer than it should be to be considered only a joke and to not pay attention to it.

This isn't meant to be an analysis of any kind because if it were I would've worded it differently and would've mentioned how his childhood is also extremely trans-coded, but we all already know that. I just find it extremely funny how all of these jokes that intend to be directed at straight perv men are actually too long to not be taken into consideration as something deeper than a joke. But, aha, yeah, these are just jokes and definitely not proof of Sanji's perception of gender and his issues with it.

[crybabydaydream]

really bugging me how all this conversation and discourse about polyamoury is cropping up and I'm not seeing anyone use the word

amatonormitivity

If you don't know this word you should learn it, its a really relevant concept to this conversation

[gayofthefae]

Found a new, concise way of putting it that I'm gonna try and remember so I can reuse it:

To say, as a straight person, that a queer character's queerness is out of the blue or unrealistic is to claim that they understand the queer experience to be able to identify inaccurate representation of it.

To call a character's queerness out of the blue as a straight person is to claim full understanding of the queer experience.

[autuboho]

‘nullifying’ each other for a relationship just because is a natural process of a developing relationship or a part of nature is a big sign of amatonormativity.

[utilitycaster]

I just want to say, that I agree with almost all of your Critical Role takes and you have 1000% better and more nuanced takes than all of Twitter and I greatly appreciate it! The takes over there regarding Liliana and the gods are just wild and you bring some much needed sanity to the content I see

Thanks! I hope you don't mind because I've been thinking about this re: the Twitter takes but the thing about Twitter and Liliana specifically that I've seen is that there's this really bizarre fetishization of like, the fact that she is a (white) southerner (this also weirdly happened for Birdie though to a much lesser extent, and the person who spearheaded that wasn't even American so I have to assume this is a specific corner of Twitter Culture At Large). And like, here's the thing. It's true that fantasy tends to be very British in its accents, and it's also true that accents in a fantasy world are used to convey the same things we'd assume in our world - RP British for educated, southern American for rural, Cockney for rougher types, etc.

It's also true that laying the exact socioeconomic parallels from our world onto, say, Liliana and Orym (who reads to me as non-regional but I, like Liam, am from the Northeast originally) is a recipe for disaster. Or rather, it's not, but it is going to reaffirm your own biases, some of which are dangerous to reaffirm.

There was a popular post on Tumblr a while back, probably not long after Trump was elected, of someone talking about how they were convincing a relative with the confederate flag towards socialism by appealing to the idea of "isn't in unfair how uneven wealth distribution is and how a small group has so much control" and a number of people were rightfully like "uh, maybe you should focus on the racism" or "hey OP ask your relative who they think that small group in control is because I'm getting a really bad feeling they're going to say it's The Jews." And I feel that a lot of the empathy for Liliana from those spaces feels like that OP. Or in other words: I get that you see your relatives in Liliana. Unfortunately, I cannot help but see me and mine in Orym.

You see someone trapped by circumstance and desperation in a dangerous ideology. I see the fact that I haven't gone to a synagogue in easily 6-7 years without there being a security guard present and usually, the doors locked with someone looking through the window to let you in, and then in the sanctuary there's been an installation so that you can quickly bar all the doors in case an alarm goes off or you hear shots in the lobby.

I think there's a great case for seeing yourself in Imogen, who is in a painful struggle with the fact that her mother does love her very much but is in dangerously deep and has done a number of incredibly terrible and harmful things. That latter point is important, incidentally; I get that cult members sometimes rise through the ranks but all but the leader are being manipulated. But the fact remains that a brainwashed person can still commit atrocities, and in this story, they have, many times over. It's especially true because like...sure, plenty of people are like "I lost my relative to a cult and I just want them back and I couldn't harm them," but also, as we've seen, this cult can and will harm Imogen! Plenty of people are also like "yeah I gotta cut them off, it hurts but unfortunately my horribly bigoted and violent relative, while a victim of brainwashing, is a threat to me too." It's not even the full picture of the Temult side of things, let alone the picture that includes the Vanguard's victims.

I also think the Southern gatekeeping is unhinged because it's like. guys there's QAnon members and other cults across the country; the Confederate flag example above was actually notable in that OP wasn't even Southern so you couldn't even write the flag off as deeply misguided heritage but rather was explicitly being used as a hate symbol. It's awfully presumptive to assume all southerners have the same experience (especially since the Temults are portrayed, physically and in accents, as white southerners, not that the experiences of white southerners aren't also incredibly varied). It's awfully presumptive to assume that people find Liliana threatening because they have no personal experience with people like her; often, it's because they have all too real experience with people like her, and it says something even worse about you if you can say "but you guys, I see me and my family in Liliana" when people are telling you that they see them and their families in Orym. I would not, personally, publicly admit that one's empathy extends to the people who remind you of your family but runs out before it reaches their victims. Nor would I publicly admit that I assume everyone who disagrees with me clearly has never had personal experience with this topic.

I should also note that, as I've noted a number of times before, that these are fictional characters and not real people. Twitter seems to be really fucking bad at grasping that. Like, yes, this is the other thing; I do not think that OP should kill their Confederate flag-toting relative, whereas if Imogen did so to Liliana I'd be like "hell yeah." The former is a real person who I do hope gets deprogrammed, just, you know, maybe adjust those priorities; the latter is a fictional character in a story.

[contagious-watermelon]

so, fellow aspec people, what are y'all's relationship to gay as an umbrella term? I've seen a lot of aroace people call themselves gay despite *technically* not being, and personally I've always been confused by that

(and also— I'd imagine that aroallo or alloace people who are gay for their other orientation would automatically include themselves with that term, but what about the arohets and acehets? how do y'all feel about the use of gay as an umbrella term?)

I'm just curious about other people's experiences bc i as an aromantic person feel rather uncomfortable being grouped in as gay because I've never been attracted to another man before, but anecdotally i seem to be in the minority

[purplecatghostposts]

Rise Leo meeting the 2012 Gang except after like, less than a week he says something along the lines of ‘Man, I can’t believe that all versions of me and my brothers and our friends are queer!’ And the whole 2012 Gang FREEZES because none of them are out to each other because they just assumed they were the only gay in the group and Rise Leo was able to figure everyone out like THAT.

Cue Spider-Man pointing meme where they’re all like, “YOU’RE BISEXUAL AND YOU DIDN’T TELL ME?? WE COULD’VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THIS ALL THIS TIME??” While Rise Leo is like “…You guys didn’t know?? Really??” Because they were all so focused on “Oh my god I’m gay… How do I come out to my family…” to notice that ALL of them are gay.

[gayedmundo]

i'm sorry but if you have the audacity to say you just started watching 9-1-1 because you saw buck and tommy got together and then tell buddie shippers that we're delusional and are just seeing things and insist upon eddie's heterosexuality then i will not be kind to you.

[yardsards]

s1 luz was at least a little bit gay for willow i will not be told otherwise

idk if it was a full on crush but it was at least one of those types of nebulous not-quite-romantic not-quite-platonic "hahaha, unless..." type friendships that a lot of queer teens have, u know the ones