#<- anti endo definition of system hopping

[tales-from-syscord]

We were once in an anti-endo sys/agere server that claimed to be soooo great and progressive and you know, most servers will allow typing quirks but tend not to allow a stutter quirk because (we are sorry for this but just trying to show) t-t-t-t-they'll (they'll for those who don't wanna read that) say it like that which most people find mocking for people with actual stutters. But this one literally said that you couldn't ask for a translation for a "stutter quirk" because then you were being abelist and cruel to the system and it's just like what? We have to use a screen reader half the time (we have a form of arthritis that can mess with our eyes along with everything else plus just general eye fatigue we get) and it's so frustrating to hear "t dash t dash t dash t dash a dash" etc.

We get alters having a stutter, one of us has one from its source because its literally a broken AI and it could only communicate through kind of broken text. But even with it, someone's there to keep it under control and make sure there is no stutter.

We left soon after they allowed a system to say they were "traumaendogenic" and that they had "systemhopped" an alter into another system.

(Also we've talked here before, can we have the tag 🕷️🌌? If not that's totally okay!)

Not the systemhopping.. 💀

(Absolutely you may! I'm going to assume all new anons gotten before I replied to this with that tag are you guys, please tell me if they're not!)

[jakes-personal-blog]

Not only that you do NOT know what punk means, but everything you said can be easily debunked.

“appropriating cultural beliefs”, oh, you're talking about tulpas? Tulpamancy is NOT a closed culture since no Buddhistic practice was EVER called like this. Ans Buddhism is NOT a closed culture.

https://www.tumblr.com/sophieinwonderland/730911019702091776/1-unless-youre-a-tibetan-buddhist-monk-you-are?source=share

https://www.tumblr.com/sophieinwonderland/706426041178161152/please-stop-claiming-to-be-plural-having-your?source=share

Saying it is one is like saying French culture is a closed one.

“harassing people with stigmatized disorders” I would like to see proofs of that. On the other hand, anti endos are constantly calling (pro)-endos delusional, schizophrenic, psychotic, and sometimes even the r-slur.

“forcing people out of their own spaces” I would also like yo see proofs. If you're talking about the "systempunk": you can't be punk if you are anti-endo and invading bigotry "safe places" is not bad.

https://www.tumblr.com/sophieinwonderland/753722190440120320/hey-coming-from-an-endogenic-system-could-you?source=share

Meanwhile, anti-endos are actively invading the pluralgang, plural, actuallyplural and such tags when they are pro-endo.

Here is the definition of punk:

Here are posts to see why anti-endo CANNOT be punk.

https://www.tumblr.com/sophieinwonderland/753174875230896128/hey-can-any-sysmeds-help-me-understand-punk?source=share

https://www.tumblr.com/luckyclovercollective/753275115953897472/your-hate-isnt-punk?source=share

Another stuff: misinformation about the origins of system hopping can be easily debunked.

https://www.tumblr.com/sophieinwonderland/723578202940899328/actually-anti-misinformation-system-hopping-was?source=share

(Most sources are from @sophieinwonderland , one of the source is from @luckyclovercollective though.).

[sophieinwonderland]

Well, I went through all the trouble of typing a response and then they just block me before I can post... if only there was a tag I could post my response in... 🤔

You’re the ones who invaded our tags first,

That's pretty clearly not true if you've been paying attention to anything happening over the past several months on this site and anti-endos constantly posting hate in inclusive tags.

Not only do you take away system resources,

What resources? Be specific?

Terms? Because again, besides Plural as a term, fictives and factives were taken from the endogenic soulbonders. In reality, vast majority of system terms in circulation came from endogenic and pro-endo systems.

Maybe you mean resources like Pluralkit and Simply Plural. You know, that are made by the pro-endos. And get many of their donations from endogenic systems.

Or, I don't know... do you think the non-trauamgenic systems and non-disordered systems are seeking mental help from your trauma therapists? 🤣

Come on! Tell me the resources! Don't just use this as a buzzword!

Tell me, you have no actual medical professions claiming endogenics are real and we have many claiming they aren’t.

Oh? You do, do you? Can you name them? I can name mine!

Here's Dr. Eric Yarbrough...

That book, Transgender Mental Health, was actually reviewed and published by the American Psychiatric Association, by the way!

Of course, if you want the opinions of an expert in DID, there are these emails from Colin Ross!

Oh, but what does he know? He's just one of the foremost experts on DID with 40 years of experience.

How about brain scans? Here's Dr. Michael Lifshitz, psychiatry professor of McGill University discussing some of the findings from his $50,000 study into tulpa systems, sponsored by Stanford University, which showed neurological changes in tulpa systems while a tulpa was controlling their limbs.

To be fair, the results haven't been published yet, so maybe you can hold onto the hope that this professor with many published papers on his belt is lying about the results. That will be a fun hope to see crushed!

And I could go on... and on... I have a long list and this is just a taste of it.

But anyway, you were telling me how these "many" medical professionals are claiming endogenic systems aren't real. Can you name them for me? Even just one? Come on. If there are so many, it shouldn't be hard!

People like you groom actual systems into believing their trauma “wasn’t bad enough” so they think they’re endogenic

"Punk" to you is apparently using authoritarian right-wing queerphobic tactics of misusing the word "grooming" to make people associate the out group with child abusers. (See every right-winger accusing LGBT people of grooming kids to be gay or grooming them to be transgender.)

Not to mention you stole the term syshopping from RAMCOA survivors.

Nope. That's a lie.

System hopping, as a term for traveling between different bodied-systems, existed since at least as far back as 2005.

The RAMCOA association came from one RAMCOA system in 2021. The system who originally said that later said their words were taken out of context, deleted the original tweet, and condemned anti-endos for using their tweet to spread hate.

I've gone over this before with sources in the post below, thoroughly debunking this lie.

There is zero basis to this whatsoever.

Although you bringing this up and reminding me how anti-endos are trying to rewrite history to take this term too is only increasing my motivation for taking the systempunk and syspunk tags.

Not to fucking mention, you steal actual therapists from us by trying to make them believe in endogenic bullshit.

Wait!

I thought you said no medical professionals believed us!

Now we're stealing therapists by making them believe in endogenic systems?

Which is it??????

never touch the systempunk tag again

Nope! Sorry! Too late for that now!

Anti-science hate groups don't get safe spaces. And the fact that you've created an echo chamber where you can safely spread lies like the systemhopping libel above is only evidence that I need to make more of an effort to correct the lies of anti-endos at their source.

No Safe Space For Hate!

[liyahwild]

ok since no one reads pinned posts anymore and/or in case its not in my dni:

my blog is a safe space for all systems. endos definitely included. as a questioning plural, whos been in the plural community (ex anti endo -> currently pro/neu endo) for some years now its come to my realization no matter how you feel - endos dont exist, endos are ableist, ect. - plurality is still being studied, heavily. and we all dont even know the full extent to plurality. as plurals, singlets, professionals, no matter. plurality is personal, you cannot live in another systems head (unless you believe in system hopping, which im not commenting on due to under-education) to decide what is valid and what is not. same with the queer community, let others be others. and if it is TRULY harmful to your community then thats when action should be taken. not getting butthurt because endos are spreading information that you dont agree with or using the same subjective labels as you. dont be hive minds and control other people and their experiences/identities. we have enough of that from system nonbelievers and sanists.

if you actively spread hate, have a blog specifically for anti endo hate speech, yada yada yada then please unfollow/block me. dont like, comment, or reblog any of my posts if you fit that category. neutral endos and pro endos or those unaligned are welcome.

IDENTITY POLICE & ANTI ENDO BLOGS DNI!!!

[circular-bircular]

The only way that I got out of toxic pro-endo spaces*, the spaces that were hurting me and causing me to push myself slowly closer to a horrific ending, was by listening to both sides. But that doesn’t mean I buy into a lot of the anti-endo talking points. I believe in endogenic plurality and a lot of the more controversial aspects of it. I’m even open to the idea of system hopping, and would fully accept it as a strictly spiritual idea (still wrapping my head around psychologically).

I think it’s so important that people understand that unaligneds aren’t “both sidesing” syscourse. Think about the word “unaligned.” It means “I am not part of either group.”

I might share certain ideas from anti-endos, which are the ideas I reblog - the diagnostic criteria of DID is redundant, dysfunction doesn’t have to be distress, DID is trauma based**. And I also share some pro-endo beliefs - that endogenic systems are real being the prominent one.

Now, I understand that all of these can be beliefs of either side, but these beliefs are definitely more prominent on either side. But I also don’t share many of the beliefs both of those sides have (that DID has strict hard set random ass rules some people tout as truth, or that DID can form without trauma).

So. I’m neither side. I don’t align myself with either. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[solxrsys]

from what I understood (I'm also a questioning HC-DID system and I have RAOA trauma, just not sure about the MC part) system hopping is widely used in HC-DID spaces, whether it originated from them is not really relevant now

the same word can be used in two different context and can mean different things depending on context, but they still have to be differentiated and it's hard to do it when everyone involved is screaming about how they own a word. what makes me REALLY FUCKING MAD is not the syshopping thing, it's other shit going on

like the racism, the wanting desperately to be severely traumatised (re: whatever the hell was going on with "extremely complex"), things like those, I consider the syshopping discourse something minor. not that it doesn't make me angry, but there are other issues I want to focus on first, and I just stay away from non-HC systems who want to use system hopping so bad

it's also infuriating when endos are asked to do a thing from trauma and abuse survivors who developed a dissociative disorder because of it, and just refuse to do it because they want to have authority and "own the anti endos" when a good majority of the ones they want to "own" are not even anti endo, they just happen to have DID (<- not an anti endo)

hope I'm making sense my head hurts severely lol

yes this

the endo definition of syshopping is fucking weird tho so idk why it even matters where it originated from when it’s only really used for ramcoa survivors

alters “hopping into another system” is impossible 😭 u can just teleport something your brain made into someone else’s brain

[thetimekeepers]

before you follow + opinions

byf

i am hazardqueer and anarchoqueer

we switch between i/me and we/us

we are very, very autistic. we are visibly autistic irl and have middling support needs. we require some tone tags in order to properly communicate, and you need to speak in clear language. we rarely mean to offend, please dont take anything we say personal and speak up if we hurt your feelings!

if you know our triggers, tag things as "#tksdl" or "#🕥dl"

i am cringe AND i am free. idgaf what people think of me, genuinely. i dont care if you think im weird or annoying. just block me if you dont like me, or i'll block instead.

opinions

queer stuff we support ALL contradictory labels, including mspec lesbians and gays, lesboys and gaygirls, aspec people, nondysphoric trans people, multigender people, etc etc. i am anti-exclusion and anti-transmed. i support bodily autonomy and safe body modification unconditionally. i am pro-kink.

shipcourse i guess i'm technically profiction but i stay away from darkship content, as it makes me uncomfortable. fiction can be a helpful tool in processing trauma. writing/drawing content including dark topics is not inherently bad, in fact it can be good for healing trauma. however, fetishizing topics such as csem, abuse, and bestiality can only be harmful.

syscourse most plurality can be explained neurologically, but not all plurality is traumagenic. human consciousness is unexplained scientifically. perhaps you just have multiple people in one body with no particular cause. until there is more in-depth research into DID and plurality, i will not exclude any kind of system. i guess we're a pro-endo sysmed? idk. with that said, system hopping does not and cannot exist. leave body-swapping in science fiction.

paraphilic disorders we avoid paraphilia discourse, but technically we could be called pro-para. HOWEVER, para communities often devlove into anti-recovery pro-contact abusive echo chambers that endanger children. if you have a paraphilic disorder, acknowledge it's an illness, and work towards bettering yourself, you're fine. if you are pro-contact or if you engage in paraphilia communities, DNI. animals, children, and corpses cannot consent.

misc we are punk and libleft, specifically a socialist anarchist. we believe the r-slur is unreclaimable due to its definition and etymology. pro-death penalty, but NOT in the hands of governments; instead, the victim and/or their family should be allowed to enact justice however they see fit. black lives matter, #landback, stop asian hate, and free palestine.

[astaryuu]

(Long post where we discuss our opinions on this - blue is Starry, pink is Reisen)

For me, it's the fact that intentionally created alters are included in the "banned topics" list that makes me suspicious of this app.

I think the fact that the word "non-traumagenic" is in quotation marks is (also) relevant. I'm always a little suspicious of use of quotation marks in official documentation, the news, and so on. When I see a thing in quotation marks and it's not dialogue or referring to the actual word/letters rather than the concept the word describes, my first thought is usually "Is OP trying to subtly mock someone?" Octocon staff can correct me, but this reads like "I don't think this is a real thing but it's what they call themselves, so I'm gonna put it in quotation marks."

Banning syscourse and discussion on the appropriation of the term "tulpamancy" on the forums is suspicious, but would probably be fine on the surface if that was the only suspicious thing - after all, these discussions frequently lead to drama. Thing is, it's not the only suspicious thing.

Even if it was, it could still be bad because the moderators could decide pro-endo discussion is syscourse, but anti-endo discussion is not. I'm just saying that without further information (from the other rules or from moderation decisions), that rule alone cannot differentiate anti-endo from endo-neutral.

Now, please, do correct me if I'm wrong but: System-hopping is a radqueer calling card, and banning radqueers is fine. But the rest of this makes it clear that Octocon isn't actually endo-neutral (as they claim to be by banning syscourse rather than banning pro-endos), but strictly anti-endo.

My guess based on the last point is that most of the moderators would describe themselves as "anti-radqueer" in mixed company, but their definition of radqueer includes endogenic and mixed systems.

Even if we're wrong and Octocon is actually endo-neutral, I won't be getting the app, because they don't intend any non-traumagenic system to use the app, and our system is not EXCLUSIVELY traumagenic (for us, it makes more sense to discuss the origin of each alter, rather than the system as a whole).

Before it catches on, octocon is anti endo and will ban you if you speak positively about plurals

[sophieinwonderland]

Why are people still lying about system hopping???

I've already covered this pretty in-depth in the past. If you want to see the full post with links and sources, please visit this page:

Here are the bullet points:

"System travel" has been in use to describe moving between bodies since at least as far back as 2001.

"System hopping" has been recorded as an alternative to this since at least as far back as 2005.

Another system has reported it being in wide use at least around 2007.

The earliest use of system hopping as a RAMCOA term was a Twitter post from April of 2021. There is no evidence of system hopping being used before that point to refer to moving between side systems.

Anti-endos pounced and started using this Tweet as evidence that system hopping is a stolen RAMCOA term.

The creator of that Tweet later deleted it and confirmed that nobody else in the RAMCOA community called that system hopping.

System hopping didn't become a RAMCOA term until a full 16 years after its oldest recorded use in the general plural community.

This is settled history!

STOP SPREADING THIS LIE!

(Also, since anti-endos keep spreading hate and misinformation in inclusive spaces, and this post is directly about DID, this is going into both DID and anti-endo tags. Especially the tags they spread this misinformation in.)

[sophieinwonderland]

Let's talk parallels between the state of politics, xenophobia and syscourse!

Specifically, libeling marginalized communities to spread hate against them. Because I've noticed a lot of interesting connections, and I feel like I just watched something in syscourse play out on the national stage.

It turns out that bigotry is the same wherever you are. When you pay attention to a lot of bigoted rhetoric, it's always using the same sort of playbook.

When it comes to plurality, the bigots are system medicalists and anti-endos. Those who hate non-traumagenic systems just for existing.

If you listen to anti-endo rhetoric, the specific talking points reek of xenophobic rhetoric. Anti-endos will claim that endogenic systems, simply by existing and being plural, are invading their spaces and stealing their resources. What resources, you might ask? It's always unclear. It's not DID therapists since most endogenic systems don't have DID and aren't seeking help from them. It's not apps like Plurakit or Simply Plural, since they were made by endogenic and pro-endo systems, and wouldn't exist without the pro-endo community.

In some cases, you will even see anti-endos go so far as to classify endogenic systems as invaders.

I am not saying that sysmeds are xenophobic. But rather, I feel that a lot of sysmed rhetoric is at least in part, due to the normalization of xenophobic talking points and those talking points being unconsciously internalized. And I feel that both also stem from the same sort of tribalism and fear of this outside group "invading" spaces you view as your own.

The System Hopping Libel

A libel is a published lie that is written with malicious intent.

When I refer to the "system hopping libel," I'm referring to a popular claim by sysmeds that "system hopping" is a RAMCOA term that was stolen by endogenic systems. The claim goes that survivors of RAMCOA (a term for ritual and organized abuse) originally used "system hopping" to refer to travel between different side systems. Later, endogenic systems stole this term and used it to refer to a headmate traveling from one different-bodied system to another.

This was quickly spread through sysmed circles, especially on Twitter and TikTok, as an example of how evil endogenic systems were, to steal terms from this super vulnerable group who suffered the most extreme trauma imaginable.

Except... this was a complete lie.

In reality, system hopping had always been used by endogenic systems to refer to travel between systems of different bodies. We've tracked its first use with this definition at least as far back as 2005. While the RAMCOA definition is much more recent, coming from a Tweet in 2021, 16 year later, seen here:

This, at no point, claimed it was a stolen term either. But sysmeds ran with it anyway, using this post as the basis for a massive libel against a marginalized community.

Later, the system who originally posted the Tweet that started the libel deleted it, disgusted that sysmeds took their words as a RAMCOA survivor and used those words to spread hate.

And they made it clear that this wasn't ever a RAMCOA term, saying this:

But the system hopping libel is something that still persists in syscourse today, despite being completely debunked.

MAGA's Pet-Eating Blood Libel

During the recent presidential debate, Donald Trump claimed that Haitian immigrants were stealing and eating people's cats and dogs.

If you haven't been keeping up on American politics, you might assume that this wasn't real or is just a meme. Trust me, I wish that it was.

This entire rumor started because a woman in Springfield Ohio made a Facebook post alleging that an immigrant had eaten a neighbor's cat. This rumor though was completely unsubstantiated, and the woman who made it... she's now deleted the post, regretting that it's been used by bigots to fuel their hate.

It's remarkable to me to watch the same exact scenario I saw with system hopping play out in politics.

One person makes a social media post. Bigots jump on that post to use it as an excuse to spread hate. The person who made the post regrets and deletes the post, making it clear they don't support the bigotry that stemmed from it. But it's too late because the bigotry machine is already in full swing and bigots don't care about facts or reality.

They are more than happy to spread malicious lies to slander an entire marginalized community. Even once the person whose words they used to start those lies have publicly denounced and turned against them, and deleted the posts that started it.

Stand Against Bigotry

While bigotry comes in a variety of different favors, it's important to recognize the commonalities between it. All bigotry is rooted in the same sort of fear and hate of the Other. The more you listen to racists and xenophobes and TERFs and transmeds and homophobes and sysmeds, the more you realize how much all of these groups think alike.

No, sysmeds might not be xenophobic. But they do think like someone who is xenophobic.

They see the world through the same sort of lens. And we need to stand against hate of marginalized people in whatever forms it takes.

With that in mind, I don't think I should need to say this, but get out and vote. Vote for the candidates who will stand against bigotry and hate. Vote against Trump for President. But also vote against MAGA supporters on down ballot races.

A plural future is a future where hate cannot be allowed a foothold, anywhere.

#Plurals for Harris

[sophieinwonderland]

I think a lot of community infighting among oppressed people is manufactured by bad actors to destabilize the power we have in our numbers. It's a lot easier to divide and conquer, so to speak. If our communities are fractured and we're driving each other away over who "qualifies" to be in the community, it'll be a cinch to win people over to conservatism, either because those people were made into outcasts by their community or because they couldn't get rid of the "undesirables and fakers" and just decided it wasn't worth the trouble anymore.

The best part (for those manufacturing the drama) is that the only thing they have to do is sow doubt in a few places, and the rest is done by people who bought into the bullshit. We saw a lot of this during the ace discourse heyday, and it works so well that the pattern is almost identical across so many different discourse topics.

"X isn't really a part of our community. They're actually fakers. Even if they're not faking, it's possible for them to conceal their identity and appear as if they aren't one of us [often not by choice or because being open about it would be dangerous], which means they have privilege over us and are an enemy."

With the ace discourse, we got such gems as "aspec actually means autism spectrum and using it to mean anything else is ableist," and "asexules actually just means sexualities in Spanish, ignore the fact that the asexual flag is right there," among other things. And it worked. A lot of us aspec folks felt unsafe enough that we went back into the closet. It wasn't even until recently that I felt safe enough to come to the realization that I'm aroace.

I saw someone not that long ago chastising transgender people for marking trumeds on shinigami eye as unsafe because "well they're not entirely transphobic, just misguided," which I thought was ridiculous. If someone is going around saying, "transtrenders are stealing our resources, those icky trans people who make their gender their whole identity shouldn't get to sit with us," that person is being transphobic. Even if they wise up and grow past that hatred and internalized bigotry, and there's a lot riding on that "if," they're still not a safe person for a good portion of trans people to be around. Hence, the marking them as unsafe.

So yeah, that's my conspiracy theory. There's like a formula for this shit, down to the smallest detail.

Thanks for the addition!

This... weirdly reminds me of that anti-endo who was theorizing that endogenic systems were a psyop meant to sow division.

That's not an insult. I actually... kind of enjoyed reading that theory, even if it was totally wrong. (As a system who definitely has no trauma and is still plural, I can confirm that we're not a psyop.)

I just find it interesting how similar your minds work. 😜

But I mean, when it comes to conservatives, you're also definitely not wrong in many cases! There are some conservative aggravators out there who will adopt progressive language to disguise hate, preaching values they don't truly believe in to sow division. And I wouldn't be shocked if you were right about it happening in the ace discourse.

I have a harder time believing that it's happening in syscourse though, just because of how niche the community is. While I hope things will change in the coming years, right now, I don't think we're even on the radars of 99% of conservatives.

With the ace discourse, we got such gems as "aspec actually means autism spectrum and using it to mean anything else is ableist," and "asexules actually just means sexualities in Spanish, ignore the fact that the asexual flag is right there," among other things.

It's actually eerie how similar the playbooks are. The whole "Aspec means autism" claim sounds exactly like the "system hopping was stolen from RAMCOA systems" lie. I wonder if we're just destined to eternally repeat history in different marginalized communities.

But can I ask what the deal was with the Spanish one? I'm confused on how that was even supposed to be a gotcha or what the argument was there.

Again, thanks for sharing your thoughts. And let me also say that I'm glad the infighting with exclusionists has settled down enough that you feel safe being out. Hopefully that bodes well for the plural community getting to a point where it's safer for endogenic systems.

[sophieinwonderland]

Hey we are a RAMCOA system and it’s so tiring to go on RAMCOA tags to see other RAMCOA systems go “EnDo SyStEmS sToLe SyStEm TrAvEl FrOm Us” when they are describing very similar things just in different ways. And also they seemingly only care because its endogenic systems, not because they think it’s stealing.

Ugh... Is this talking point still a thing?

If anyone missed it, I debunked this myth pretty thoroughly last year. I would highly advise anyone who still believes system hopping is a RAMCOA term read this:

[sophieinwonderland]

Just a quick ramble, Im pro-endo and mixed origins before anyone comes for my throat

Sidesystems and system hopping are STOLEN terms from ramcoa* systems (*if ur a traumagenic system/in a very bad mental state, pls only look that up with caution)

Side systems means a seperate system of completely programmed alters, system hopping meant an alter from the/a subsys, sidesys or mainsys "hopped" to a subsys, sidesys or to the mainsys.

Actually, lots of terms were stolen from ramcoa systems, and it irritates me to no end seeing uneducated people try and dismiss that yes, system hopping is real, no it does not mean going from one persons system to another completely different persons system

Ok rant over

Are there actually any sources for this? I've tried googling it before, and the very earliest I could find any reference to system hopping in reference to plurality was 2015, which was referencing travel between separate systems.

We've similarly had zero luck trying to find references to side systems before 2020 (when the current definition of the term was coined.)

We tried searching for variations like "side systems" and "sidesystem" but haven't gotten any better results.

I also tried searching for '"side system" ramcoa" through different years. There was nothing that mentioned this before 2019, or 2020, or 2021. When I finally broadened this search to 2022, the only result I got was this...

Which... umm... yeah...

Take everything from r/Systemscringe with a massive grain of salt.

I don't know if this was the first time this claim was ever made since not everything appears on Google. But this IS the oldest post Google shows with RAMCOA and "side system" being used together.

Without any evidence, I'm inclined to believe that the myth of these terms being stolen was created by anti-endos if not r/systemscringe itself. Accusing words of being stolen from survivors of horrible abuse makes a nice talking point to smear people they don't like, but I don't think it has any basis in reality.

[sophieinwonderland]

Here's my post debunking the system hopping claim with screenshots if anyone wants it!

Besides it not being used in academic literature, when I was researching this, one thing I did was Google "RAMCOA" and "system hopping" together, and then narrowed it down by date to see if there was any evidence of any websites using these words together prior to the Twitter thread. There was none.

The earliest use of system hopping to refer to travel between different bodies was 2005. The Twitter thread was in 2021.

The counter claim I've seen from anti-endos is usually "well, this was used in super secret unnamed RAMCOA communities that were all deleted from the face of the internet, and never found its way to general use."

But this argument is just incredibly weak.

First, it's pretty hard to believe that this was common terminology across multiple RAMCOA spaces, but somehow never leaked into general communities. People don't disappear when their communities fold. They just move on to other communities and use the same language.

Second, this doesn't even have remotely credible anecdotes backing it up. That is to say, the people making this claim are largely minors and young adults, and weren't part of any plural communities prior to system hopping's first recorded use in 2005. I've never even seen someone say "oh yeah, system hopping, I saw that in RAMCOA communities back in '97" or anything of the sort.

Nobody who is making these claims are giving dates. It's just "RAMCOA systems did it first" and no further information. And that should be a huge red flag there there's no merit to it.

Compare that to @thelunastusco recalling how they had a fight with a system who claimed their headmate hopped into the Collective's system to say hi around 2007, and has said the term was well-known during that time period.

It IS still just an anecdote. But it's pretty well-known that they were part of the system community for a long time, and they're giving an actual timeframe for hearing its use unlike the anti-endos.

Breaking the age thing down further, we can assume that most people wouldn't have been part of RAMCOA communities until they were at least 13 at the bare minimum. To have seen this term in 2004 or earlier before its first recorded use to refer to travel between bodies, they would need to have been born 1992. Meaning they'd need to be 33 at the youngest today. (I feel like I may be mathing this wrong and am either over or under by a year, but I digress.) And this is, honestly, being pretty generous by assuming minors who were raised in cults and suffered this type of abuse would have internet access in 2004, long before every kid had a computer in their pocket, identify their experiences with RAMCOA, and manage to find these super secret RAMCOA groups.

Finally, even if this claim had any merit and these super secret RAMCOA communities did somehow exist prior to 2005, and nobody from them ever used the term outside of those communities because of how super secret they were for over 16 years, the "stealing" claim is still bogus because there would be no way of knowing about the super secret communities to steal from them.

So since we have started to see pro-endos spread this around I was wondering if it had any merit. Is there any basis for the idea that the term system hopping or system traveling was first used by polyfragmented/programmed systems? And yes we have seen what endos say on this we were just hoping for a more objective opinion instead of one that could be fueled by just simply hating anti-endos. Thank you. :)

Nope, no merit. Believe me, I wanted that to be true, I wanted to prove they steal our words. It never belonged to us, it was created by a system on Twitter to talk about their experience, and when they saw how it was being used to gatekeep, they stood against that.

On my end, the term has NEVER been used in academic literature. Ever. It doesn't even describe a similar experience using a different word, and I looked hard, pulling out every resource I had.

It's just not true.

[sophieinwonderland]

The "system hopping is a RAMCOA" argument is a big part of why I just have no respect for the term gatekeepers.

Reiterating again... system hopping's earliest use for travel between external systems was in 2005. Its first use in relation to RAMCOA was in 2021, and the person who said it later made it clear that their words had been taken out of context and that this term had never been used in RAMCOA spaces before.

This isn't a debate with two equal side. Anti-endos took a RAMCOA system's words out of context and lied to smear endogenic systems and police terms made by pro-endos 16 years after the term was coined. There is ZERO merit to this claim, and anyone who says otherwise has been misinformed or are actively maliciously lying.

And if they have been shown the facts and still double down, you can bet it's the latter.

[sophieinwonderland]

The term "system hopping" doesn't have a shared history either. It's not two terms that just were made around the same time and had separate developments.

If this were a RAMCOA term at any point, people would have pointed it out at some point in the 16 years between the first use of system hopping and the retracted 2021 Tweet while anti-endos were vigorously attacking the term and anyone using it.

Don't try to present this as a both sides issue.

It's a lie made up by anti-endos and repeated ad nauseam to hurt endogenic systems.

(Nothing against Nel for their initial Tweet describing their experiences as system hopping. Anyone can use the term and if Nel or others find the term useful to them with this new definition, then that's great. But other people took their words out of context, invented a false narrative around endogenic systems stealing terms, and continued doubling down even when Nel condemned them and they were shown overwhelming evidence against that interpretation. Nel's use of the term isn't a problem. The erasure of the term's history by others to attack endogenic systems is the issue.)