#<- an anti natalist“

[koheletgirl]

the honest truth about grantaire's political opinions is that they dont matter

[freckled-radfem]

Reasons not to get pregnant/have a child/raise children. From girlwiththelist1 on tiktok

[canwediscuss]

How do anti natalists/ inherently anti natalist political groups feel about the longevity of your movements? Can you convert at a rate to withstand opposing groups that just. Clone?

For example, global population conscientious anti Christians, how do you feel about mormons and Amish making more of themselves?

Pro abortion leftists, how do you feel about pro life far right groups having high birthrates?

And so on. I'm curious.

[swagging-back-to]

every single time you stress out about your taxes, or your rent, or your debt, or your mortgage, or your car payment, or your medical bills, or climate change, or your stress over having to work and just do basic things like eating----- remember that if you have children, *you are directly responsible** for them feeling all of that suffering and stress and pain when they grow up.

[blackpilljesus]

Sometimes as I go on about life I get very jealous of males.

Like, they got no hurdles in life, basically they get a wife that serves their every need.

They don't have to take many precautions in life, they get taken seriously.

What's worse is women support these moids more than the moids themselves.

How do I cope with these stuff?

Withdraw. It sucks but not offering unpaid or uncompensated labour goes a long way. As you're single, you're not providing any maIes free labour like cooking & cleaning. The biggest impact of withdrawing is not having kids. Don't add another person to this world, in the short term it seems like nothing but long term it's a powerful move. Less people being born = less women & girls being taken advantage of or less maIes exploiting women & girls. I say this often but the way I cope with all this bs is knowing I'm not leaving any kids behind. I wont waste time investing in kids that'll get screwed over by the system, I wont have kids weaponised against me. Look at how maIe leaders are scrambling at the declining birth rates, this shit only continues so long as they've got toys to destroy. The only way to not lose is to not play. In the meantime, put your energy into yourself or likeminded women. As much as this world sucks try & find somethings you enjoy to pass time.

We can't control the entire world we can only control what we do to an extent.

[reverescents]

Most people, almost everyone, don't understand how complex parenting is and everything you have to do and NOT do (yes, even that's hard). Most parents do tons and tons of things that are harmful and wrong. And these include really subtle, small, seemingly harmless things, too. If you really want to be better parents than, like 95% of the parents in this world, then there is such an incredibly tremendous amount of effort you have to put in. And people don't understand just how enormous that effort is and just what and how much you have to do/learn/know/be. And it's impossible. There is so much you have to learn and know and do and be able to do before you become parents and while you are parenting. And all of that, is literally impossible in this world, system, and society. Because you need so much money, time, resources, support, and much, much more for all that you have to do. And the world you're living in doesn't allow it or make it possible. And even if we were somehow living in a "perfect world", being a "good parent" would never be possible.

Because first of all, you brought a child into existence despite not being able to take their consent. That's wrong (unethical and immoral) in the first place, since you can't take consent (which, even if it was possible, I don't understand how it would work and don't think that concept makes sense) and due to what bringing a child into existence implies for that child, a human being, which is an entire different and enormous discussion by itself, so there is literally no such thing as a "good parent". It's just like how there's no such thing as a "good criminal". A criminal is a criminal. A parent is a parent. And just like how a criminal can commit their crimes "well" (being a good strategic thinker/planner...being clever and courageous, being skilled, etc. I don't know) or not well, a parent can also do that, and the thing is, most parents don't do their "job" NEARLY "well" enough. And if you want to do it better than 95% of the parents in this world, then there is an unbelievable and innumerable amount of things you have to do, which the kind of world we live in doesn't make possible to do.

You are a human being with a job and with very limited time, money, and resources, etc. You are also an adult, which means you have been conditioned and programmed in many ways that are not good, that are probably harmful. And you would need to deal with that, which just by itself, is something that requires an enormous amount of time and effort, and we're back to not having enough time, money, and resources (and much more) for that. Even when you reduce the work you have to do to do your "job" as a parent way, way better than most parents, down to something that is possible to do in this world, society, and system, even then it STILL requires tremendous time, energy, and effort, and much more. It's also not something you can do by yourself — you need other people, and that might not be possible for you. And if people think that what I'm saying is wrong, that being a parent doesn't require an unbelievable amount of effort and doesn't require you to do all the things you need to do (grow, change, heal, learn, read/watch/do, think, understand, learn unlearn learn unlearn, do, develop, do, gain, etc etc etc), then those people are ignorant, delusional, immature, unwilling, and/or very, very selfish. You don't want to think or you just can't think at all.

I think if a couple attempted to do all of those things that are essential to do to be the 'best' parents possible, while living in this world, they would lose their minds and cause themselves and each other a lot of damage. Because of our parents, and all the parents before and ever, being..quite terrible and so far from being "good parents", it's even more difficult, and I'm saying all that I am taking into account this fact, of course. Why is it even more difficult? Well, because obviously, everyone is raised by their parents/caregivers (when I say 'everyone' I don't also mean people who grow up without anyone caring for them, etc), and our parents/caregivers, environment, the country, city, state, area we live in, life outside of home (which involves other people, everyone else who are not raised by what I call close-to-good parents because "good" parenting is not real or realistic), family, experiences, what we see, learn, hear, are taught directly and indirectly, everything and much more ALL obviously very significantly impact and influence us and shape us as the human beings we become (I mean, you don't ever "become" a human being, you are born as one, but you get what I mean). Oh, and by saying that, I don't mean we are born as blank slates, that's not true at all. However, external factors significantly shape and impact us. Your psychological type is also an incredibly and significantly important factor I'm sure, but no one knows about this or talks about this (this is the first time I include this when talking about something like this..). All this obviously influences and impacts the kind of parents you are going to be, and many, many of the ways you have been influenced, conditioned, impacted, and programmed are harmful and you would need to deal with that first which is a lot of work, and work on yourself, get help from others, grow, etc..

There is so much to do and if you are going to bring a human being into existence, into this planet, they deserve the absolute best (whatever that is), and you owe it to them to give them that (even if you adopt), and since literally no one can do that (they can only give THIER best, which unfortunately is never enough), especially also because of what this world is like and the fact that more things are out of your control than what is, you shouldn't have kids. There are many, many more reasons why you shouldn't than this, of course. I know it sounds like a strong statement, and like it leaves no room for any 'buts', but really, you shouldn't. There are no 'buts'.

When you truly understand what it means to be a parent but also what it means to bring a human being into existence, into this specific world, system, and society, when you understand both of these things truly, when you have thought about it and read others' perspectives, arguements, and views, too; you realize it is 1000% better and the best to NOT have any children, to not become a parent. You realize it's the right thing to do. I haven't even talked about exactly and specifically all the things you must do in order to become close-to-good parents, or what the implications of bringing somebody into existence are, the issues in this world (I don't even know enough about this yet, yet what I know is enough), or just antinatalism. There is still so much I don't know about all that myself. I'm not some "expert". There is a colossal amount of things to talk about here. And I think everything I'm saying is way too complicated to be explained simply or be understood easily, so you either get what I mean, or you don't.

[insufferablefirehazard]

[morbidmordin]

Ah the forums in a seething meltdown where everyone who doesn't hate Jade's design is a misogynist and page after page of screeching about how pregnancy is evil. All this while they reduce Jade to an incubator, ignoring everything else about her story.

I see little has changed in my absence.

[lesbianp1lled]

[balkanradfem]

I feel that any bad-faith argument about abortion needs to be turned into argument about quality and value of all life on earth. Because we are an intelligent species, and are capable of looking ahead and seeing the consequences of out actions.

For instance, we are living in a world with current ongoing wars, where certain people are given the orders to end thousands of lives, without any consequences or retributions. And yet this is not where pro-life is focusing their intent; apparently once babies grow up it's perfectly fine to gruesomely end those same lives in a genocide, or be starved to death during wars, that kind of thing just 'can't be helped'. But women can be pressured and guilted into birthing more babies, so apparently that's the way to go, sure way to increase the amount of suffering in the world.

But, you'll say, not all born babies will be killed off in wars (weird thing to say honestly), what about children who will live their lives safely and happily on this planet?

Well, tell me how?

Any child being born is going to experience the devastating effect of the climate change, they'll watch whole ecosystems collapse, animals going into extinction, and thousands of humans losing their homes and survival resources. They're being born into a misogynistic world, and if the child is female, she'll experience oppression that she won't even be able to prove is real to the male part of the population.

This child will grow up in the world where empathy is scarce, they'll be bombarded with news about human suffering almost every day, they're likely to come down with mental illness or at least feel that the future is bleak and brings more pain. They're also likely to fall victim to pedophiles, predators, and brainwashed boys who learned to sexually assault other kids due to the exposure of p*rn. Is pro-life trying to protect them from any of it? No. They're fighting to stop teaching them about puberty and what sex is, so once these traumatic things happen to them, they're unable to recognize them or speak about it.

But let's look into even more immediate effects of having a child born against their mother's consent. Once a baby is born, they're alive, but we all know that if they're not tended to, they'll die, experiencing nothing but pain. We always assume women will do this labour unprompted, but how can we assume this?

The forced mother, who is already traumatized from having to go trough forced birth, is likely both unwilling and without proper resources to care for a baby. The baby will feel this, they will know they're unloved. They'll know they're unwanted before they even grow up. As a solution to this, you suggest we blame and shame all mothers for not being good enough, for struggling with post-birth trauma or post-partum depression, for being unwilling to be a parent? You can't control what an unwilling mother does with her baby. You forced her to give birth but you can't do anything beyond that point.

Why did you do it? Why did you make sure a baby exists in a world where there is nobody who wants them, is willing to take care of them or give them a good life? What is it worth to you if there's another unwanted, unloved, suffering child out there? Does it make your life better if there's more human suffering? Do you fight for support of new mothers, for better healthcare, for better resources to take care of abandoned babies, for better institutions to take care of unwanted children? No. You feel entitled to women's unlimited labour and endless caretaking of children they don't want. You don't want to acknowledge it's undertaking of a huge scale, that requires endless resources, finances, complete exhaustion, loss of health, sleep, protection, sometimes education and career. It's nothing to you. Loss of quality of life, for everyone involved, means nothing to you.

As long as there is more human suffering. As long as mother didn't get any say over whether she'll become a mother or not, and how many times, and when. As long as her life was put at risk without her consent. As long as she was punished for something you consider she should be punished for.

And now I'm going to circle back to where I started, the war. Because mothers have to watch their children both go to war, risk their lives in war, and be killed in wars. After putting that endless amount of energy and resources to grow and raise a single child, they'll have to watch them go to slaughter. And what happens if a child dies, as a solider in a war? Mother gets payment for it. That's right. For having that child murdered by someone else, the mother will get paid. Murder of that child is not only okay, legal, approved by government and somehow necessary, but is also rewardable to the mother, who, had she refused to birth that same child, causing zero suffering to ensue, would have been punished. Nobody except the mother can get punished.

If the child was killed in a war, and not a soldier, nothing. Apparently loss of life with extreme amount of human suffering, is worth absolutely nothing. But refusing to put that life out there, is a punishable crime. Because it only matters if it's unborn or a newborn. Once that same baby grows up, it's slaughter time. Humans apparently lose value after they grow up, they're only worth as 'endless human potential' in unwilling hands, but after they've reached the age of 'not a baby anymore', worthless.

We have observed the world for long enough to see the consequences of the actions we make. Women are the only ones who can and should decide whether they are willing and able to bring another life into the world, that is worth living, that will provide a life which is livable, enjoyable, worth being alive for. Life is extremely precious and bringing it into the world where it will be subjected to neglect, torture, and possibly a painful death, is unacceptable.

Caring for mother's rights is the first thing that will improve any child's quality of life. Caring about the environment is the second. Ending wars and debilitating male's ability to even start a war, is a fight for life. Not fighting for them to take control of female bodies, which they'll use to make themselves endless supply of soldiers, endless war resources. Taking control from women always means putting it in hands of m*n, who don't find any problem with human suffering, who celebrate wars, find themselves at home doing massive murdering, torturing and raping of women and children.

Women in charge of life means making life compatible with joy, love, care and warmth. We are the only ones who give children have safety, community, care and protection only a willing mother can give. You're wrangling it away from us further away from control the women are. We are fighting for a world where every mother is willing, and every child wanted. Why aren't you?

[somethingblu3]

God judging me after finishing yet another Astarion breeding fic.

[swagging-back-to]

[notreallysureyett]

I think the reason why abortion absolutism is becoming more popular (apart from the commonality of abortion diluting people's innate negative reaction towards it and recent legislative attempts to restrict it) is that more and more people realize that the libertarian framework of "this is a moral negative but it should be legal" falls flat when it comes to a life or death position such as abortion, so rather than realize abortion is an uncompromising evil they just decided to reframe abortion as a moral positive.

[reverescents]

More thoughts on..parenting and antinatalism.

Before reading this, read these posts if you haven't: (⁠*⁠❛⁠‿⁠❛⁠)⁠→, (⁠*⁠❛⁠‿⁠❛⁠)⁠→, (⁠*⁠❛⁠‿⁠❛⁠).

I lost some braincells writing this post. It's so complicated and there are so many layers to unleash and so many arguments that could be made, etc. I kept getting so many different thoughts. No one knows how long this post took and the amount of times my edits, as in humongous chunks of what I wrote and added, weren't saved or mysteriously vanished and I had to write all of it all over again.

People just don't know how the smallest things parents say and do can be harmful. They have no idea how even the smallest, simplest interactions can be harmful, and how the seemingly insignificant things parents say to their children daily or in interactions or conversations or little moments can be harmful. The tone, the volume, the wording/phrasing, the words and the choice of (specific) words, the facial expressions, the timing, the gestures, the amount of attention/focus on the interaction, whether it's necessary or not, etc.

If it's something you do without really speaking, even if it's a small action, it is powerful and it can be harmful and just wrong. All of these things are extremely important and they affect children (small or not). These things — from seemingly unimportant, insignificant, small, unobvious, and "harmless", to more significant, big, and obvious — hold enormous power. They are so impactful. Our words and actions hold a lot of power. This is especially accurate for a parent. Everything you do and say to your child shapes/affects them in some way. The way you handle situations has power and it's important.

You are raising a human being, I think most people don't realize what that actually means and what an insanely enormous responsibility that is. Bigger than what anyone thinks, because of what it means. It's the biggest responsibility anyone can ever have, both because of the person you are parenting and how they are affected by your parenting (everything involved in parenting, even the things no one really notices or realizes are actually important and means something), and also because of the impact that person has/will have on other human beings, or even collective humanity, due to how they are being/were raised.

Most parents don't realize or understand this and actually do countless seemingly 'small' and 'big' things incorrectly, and in a way that's harmful. All of what a parent is doing is shaping their child. Many psychologists, therapists, child therapists, mental health professionals, parenting coaches, etc. are the ones I think who know the most about the very common parenting mistakes and problems, and such a significant amount of things parents do that are wrong, and the harm that is caused because of that, the consequences/results, how children are affected, the things they experience and how they affect them, what that could develop into, what issues are/can be caused, how they can act as adults or the struggles they might/will face, and ways they might/will act, etc. They are the most cognizant of the harm and damage that can be done and the results of that.

Most other people barely know anything about that. And it's not possible for every person to be a psychologist or something, and neither will everyone want to nor should they be forced to, but all these people who study other things or do other things, are not going to know these very important things that many of those professionals do, and they don't (including myself). But these people will (and do) have kids, right? (And a lot of these people are also less fit to be parents than others). But they're not gonna know. And well, some of them can get help from those professionals I mentioned, but of course, the help is not free and is expensive, it's not accessible or available for everyone (only some people), and not every professional is going to be a good professional.

Learning those important things, gaining knowledge, self-knowledge, acquiring very important skills (emotional regulation as an example, and knowing how to help your child regulate their emotions), getting help for yourself, working on yourself, growing, changing, maturing, healing — these things require tremendous effort, and a significant amount of time and money. And not only that, but motivation, determination, willingness, and real love for your child(ren).

Your actions and words as a parent have to align with all that knowledge and those skills you gain, the self-awareness, self-knowledge, the internal improvement in you, the change, etc. You also have to take care of yourself physically and try to be healthy, because you need to take care of yourself for your children. Few people have or do all of what I mentioned and much more. Maybe none. And most parents don't or can't do even this (taking care of themselves) at all, or well enough, or just enough.

All these parents also need to work, and they're busy because they're parents. They need support systems too and a community who has the same knowledge and awareness as them. How many people have that? How many people even have support systems? And how good are their support systems?

You need all of this and so much more (like being financially, physically, emotionally, and mentally fit) to be the best parents/caregivers possible. This is literally not possible because of the world we live in, the systems we have built, society, and because human beings are limited. All these parents also need to work, and they're busy because they're parents.

Even being the "best parents possible" is a very complicated thing, not everyone will or can do things the same way, and humans are extremely different and complicated. Being the "best parents possible" is still not enough. It doesn't justify having kids. How can everyone on Earth be the best possible parents? How would that even be made possible? What is the "best possible parenting", what are all the things that constitute it, and are all these people even capable of that? Is being the "best parents/caregivers possible", even possible? It's not possible for all human beings who want kids, it's barely possible for any of them.

It's so complicated and so much work is required, as well as a lot of money (one of the problems with this world). Being the best possible parents is also unique to and depends on the parents or potential parents, the individuals involved, and is still going to look different for everyone, some will still be better, some will be worse, and this is another reason why it's not even "possible" other than the world being the way it is and personal limits. Being the "best possible parents" is too difficult and unachievable, and being "good parents" is not even a real thing, which means calling anyone a "good parent" is always an overestimation/overstatement. It actually also doesn't make sense.

I am saying all of what I am saying while being aware that humans do have and gain their own wisdom, knowledge, and insight themselves already, I'm not saying we don't have any of that and extra work is required for all of us to gain all of that, too. We do learn from life and our experiences as well, you don't need a therapist to tell you everything, for example. Some things are or develop within us.

Don't they say that it takes a village to raise one child? This is not false. You need a community, you need other people, you need a support system. And all of these other people, so many people, are going to need to have the same knowledge and awareness as the parents, they also need to have worked on their issues, gotten/be receiving help, grown and matured, have important skills, know the do's and don't's, etc.

They also have to spend significant amounts of time, energy, money, and put tremendous effort into helping raise children. How can that ever happen? Why would they do that, for other people's kids who they don't owe anything to? It's not their job or responsibility to work on themselves that heavily and do so much just for the sake of others' children, even if it's good for them, too, and their relationships and life. But the problem is, those who are parents need these other people's help. There are very few who would be willing to do what is necessary.

And is this even a reality now? No, we are not even a little bit close to that kind of thing. Parents don't actually have community or support systems or a lot of people's help now. Parents themselves barely have any of the essential skills and knowledge they need to have, and much, much more. People who are not parents don't have those things either. This job requires other people.

All this makes raising a child in the best way possible even more impossible (in some ways it could be easier because you're doing it with other people together, hypothetically). In reality, now, parents leave their children in daycares, or to other people, family members, or hire nannies and babysitters, or maids, etc. Do all these people have the knowledge and skills and awareness they need to have to be taking care of a child, even temporarily? Are they mentally and emotionally "fit"? Are they self-aware? Are they aware of their issues, trauma (maybe), and that they are conditioned and shaped and influenced in countless negative ways, which affect what they say and do and how they say and do it because it's who they are, of course, and the possible consequences of that (the effect that has ok the child)? Do they know what things they could say or do that would be harmful? I don't think you can say they do.

So many of the things that these people do and say, are harmful and incorrect/wrong/damaging, but they don't know. They also need to be a certain way and have certain skills and knowledge to do the best job possible looking after a child/children even if it's temporary. But that also requires quite a lot of effort. And not everyone is the same, in fact, they are far from that. Many children actually spend a significant amount of time at daycares, with other family members, nannies, etc. while their parents are at work.

As a parent, even if you are the best one can be, these other people you leave your kids to (which you will need to), and just other people in general that your child meets or has interactions with, are going to harm or negatively affect your child(ren) in some way, big or "small" (I say "small" with quotation marks because even the smallest negative influences can harm you and therefore others, and affect the things you do. It's kind of like..the butterfly effect), whether they realize it or not. This whole thing is unavoidable and guaranteed to happen.

A babysitter, for example, maybe a 16 year old, is most likely not going to have/be all they need to have/be in order to make as less mistakes as possible and avoid causing harm to the child(ren) they are babysitting. They (most likely) don't even have parents who are close-to-good as parents, who make tons and tons of mistakes themselves.

One thing about other people who look after/take care of/raise your children is that, what they're doing is not their job or responsibility or obligation like it is for you, since you are the parents/people who took in the child/main caregivers (I'm trying to be inclusive). They don't owe your child anything like you do. Why and how would a babysitter for example or a nanny do all the work necessary to be a good babysitter/nanny? It seems to me that this is all just extremely complicated and difficult and impossible.

And this is [the] important [thing]: Being the "best parents possible", doesn't make having kids ethical, moral, or right. By bringing a person into existence, you are subjecting them to all kinds of harm and suffering. Even if you are somehow the "best possible parents", your child is going to be harmed and negatively impacted by the world and other people. Other people who have also been harmed by their parents and the world. It's like a flower that gets watered and taken care of in the best way possible, but the environment it is in is toxic and harmful and terrible for the flower.

Another point is, bringing anybody into existence is never justified regardless of how they feel about their life, being alive, and/or having been brought into existence. It's unethical, immoral, and wrong regardless of what they think or feel, and part of the reason why, is that the parents didn't or couldn't have possibly known how this child would go on to feel about their life or being born, what they would go through, the kind of person they'd be and how they might suffer, and much, and much more.

If the person is grown and "happy" to be alive, that's good for them, but the thing is, the ones who are choosing to have a child never know what their child will go through or how they would feel, etc. and that is a reason why it's unjustifiable and unethical.

Most parents or potential parents of biological children aren't even aware or think about the possibilities, the things that could happen. Parents think their children are special, that they'll dodge big bullets. (But even just the "smaller" bullets are why it's unethical to have children). Parents don't realize that they don't have as much control as they think over what happens or doesn't happen to their children. They don't care about the fact that suffering is always guaranteed, and that their child may not be happy, or about the world's state.

You can't say, "Look, my child is doing fine, so I didn't do anything wrong". It's like intentionally hitting someone in the face but they don't end up too injured, and therefore thinking what you did was fine, just because the victim isn't extremely hurt. There's more to this. The person might actually have been badly injured, but they're ok with having been hit, and even enjoyed it, for whatever reason (I know, this is probably not a very good analogy). That still doesn't justify hitting the person or make it okay. Anyone, any child, saying that they are happy or grateful to be alive, or that they like or love their life, that they want to live, despite their suffering or struggles, and are grateful to have been brought into existence, etc., doesn't mean the parents bringing that person into the world becomes excused.

By bringing someone into life, you are making the biggest decision anyone could ever possibly make but are ironically incapable of making, for another person. Do people understand or realize that? No. Do they understand what it means or could mean for a person to come into existence and this world? No. Some people will argue, "Well by deciding to not bring the person into existence, you are also taking away their opportunity to experience life. You are making the decision for them to not exist." Take away whose opportunity to experience life? Make decision for whom? The non-existent person? This "person" doesn't even exist. It literally does not matter, they are not going to experience any sadness or disappointment over "losing" the "opportunity" to live life.

When I say "person", it makes sense, because when you decide/choose to bring someone into existence, that is already a potential person, and you are making the biggest decision a person could ever make, for that potential person. Once you have already made it, the person is no longer a potential person, but a person. By not bringing or choosing to bring a person into existence, you are not taking anybody's decision or opportunity away, and neither are you making a huge (the biggest) decision for somebody else. See? Isn't that great? It is.

There are also many reasons why a person might think that they want to be alive or that they love their life and want to keep living, even despite their suffering and pain and problems, which include survival instincts, the fact that they've ever only known life and never known non-existence, they're already alive and have things and people they love, like, want, and treasure, etc. That's not necessarily always a bad thing, but it's another part of the reason why saying that bringing them into existence was justified, is wrong.

Because a lot of those same people I bet, would probably not choose to come into existence if they could see what their life would be like, and if they had somehow been familiar with the comfort of non-existence (just like we kind of know the experience/comfort of sleeping), etc.

Bringing a person into existence is wrong because of what it means and could mean for that person, and because you are making the biggest decision one could ever make but can't, for another person. I can't imagine what the world would turn into if everyone stopped reproducing, I don't imagine it would be great, and the idea of humans going extinct is sad for a lot of us, but does that mean people shouldn't stop producing their own offspring?

Well, it is unethical and causes tremendous harm, so...no ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ ͠⁠°⁠ ͟⁠ʖ⁠ ⁠°͠⁠ ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

[lem0nademouth]

i’m not an anti natalist i wanna make that clear i do however think exactly none of the people currently having kids of their own free will are taking it seriously or prepared in any way to properly parent their children and they probably should not be having kids if that is the case

[lukafrombible]

Seeing innies' struggles through a civil rights lens i think fails to see the real tragedy of their continued existence. At the end of season 2 you can see Mark S start to basically swing around more towards basically direct support for lumon, as he realizes that his existence is predicated on the company's further existence. This time around he chose to help outie Mark up until the end, but in the future i think Mark S will become more loyal to lumon than he wants to be because without them he doesnt exist.

No matter how badly lumon treats the innies their behavior and choices will tend to be in benefit to lumon bc of that wild relationship. They may want to change it but they will never want lumon to stop existing and they are obviously unable to come to any terms that their own existence is in itself the evil of lumon bc they want to keep living.

Recognizing that the innies' inner lives and questions of their personhood is the point of the show, but you also have to recognize that there's no good ending for them. Their existence by itself is an inhumane and unjustifiable act. There is no way for them to live a peaceful coexistence with their outie because there is (especially in the case of Mark and Mark S) a complete conflict of interest. Honestly it would just absolutely be in Mark's best interest to stop reintegrating and never step into lumon's office again, because his innie frankly hates him more than ever.