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babyrdie · 29 days ago

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random question but i recently saw some yuri patrochilles…in your opinion what would the genderbend version of them be like?

- 🍓 yes i stole the idea from 🍇 anon

I won't criticize you for stealing the idea from grape anon lol feel free to identify yourself while remaining anon I guess! Also, sorry for taking so long (one week!!) to respond! In my defense, I was dealing with issues that really involved recovering physically, so I thought it would be best to distance myself from social media. You see, in theory I’m STILL distancing myself from the networks, but that is because I’m focusing on other things in life. But well! Now I can respond. To the others who sent me asks and I didn't respond, IT WILL TAKE A LONG TIME! Especially those who asked me questions that involve long explanations.

First of all, some details:

I'm assuming you're referring to the Myth Patrochilles because that's what I assume when someone doesn't specify.

I'm not going to genderbend everyone. I'm going to genderbend the Patrochilles because you asked for it.

When it comes to genderbends, I like to think about how gender affects the character's life, and so maybe this genderbend isn't exactly what you'd want.

Names

I'm going to give names to the genderbend versions because it's easier than saying, for example, female Patroclus. So here we have:

I'll call Achilles Pyrrha because that's his fake female name in Skyros. I had heard that the feminine name for Achilles is Achilleia, but I'll keep Pyrrha;

I'm going to call Patroclus Cleopatra because it's the feminine form of Patroclus and even has the same meaning. Yes, Patroclus and Cleopatra are theoretically the same name. And yes, Phoenix did indeed tell Patroclus the story of a woman in his position and with the same name begging an angry hero to return to war. And yes, Patroclus did indeed repeat Cleopatra;

The other characters keep the same names, as their genders have not been changed.

Appearence

I have an opinion that seems to be unpopular (at least, judging by the fanarts) when it comes to the appearance of genderbend Patrochilles, because I don't think Pyrrha would be extremely feminine. My reasoning: if the male version of Achilles is androgynous, then naturally the female version of him is also androgynous! If a Patrochilles man has Achilles being the one with the most considered feminine appearance, then Patrochilles woman has Pyrrha with the most considered masculine appearance. On the other hand, if Patroclus is typically masculine when it comes to physical appearance, then Cleopatra is physically typically feminine. This, of course, speaking in terms of physical appearance and not the association of certain personality traits with gender roles.

As a result, I imagine Pyrrha as a woman with shoulder-length hair AT MOST, as was more typical for men. On the other hand, Cleopatra has waist-length hair, as was typical for women. Pyrrha also has fewer curves and smaller eyelashes compared to Cleopatra. My Pyrrha's jaw is still well-defined, because my Achilles got that jaw from... Thetis! Who, mind you, is a woman! So, well, I've already drawn women with defined jaws before, I don't need to change Achilles as Pyrrha. And my Thetis is also drawn with few curves and my Achilles' body is based on hers (in terms of shoulder-to-waist proportion. Yes, my Thetis has relatively broad shoulders, I just didn't have the chance to draw it in a way that makes it noticeable), so once again it makes sense that this would be Pyrrha's body type.

I also think Pyrrha would like to wear short tunics (Myceneaen tunics, I mean), while Cleopatra would prefer dresses. I'll keep the height of both. Not only do tall women exist, but Pyrrha is a demigoddess, so she could have simply taken after Thetis (like my Achilles is actually tall because of Thetis). I made Patroclus the same height as Achilles because of the armor, but I'll keep the height the same here because I don't like Patrochilles with height differences (sorry, guys). So yeah, two tall women (1,90).

Prophecy

Realistically speaking, I don't think Pyrrha would be the "child of the prophecy", because, at least from what I understand, the prophecy about Thetis referred not to a child, but to a son. Like, it only works with Achilles, it wouldn't work with Pyrrha. At least, that's how it seems in the translations I've read, I don’t know if it has the same meaning in Greek. Some examples:

Io What! Shall Zeus one day be hurled from his dominion? Prometheus You would rejoice, I think, to see that happen. Io Why not, since it is at the hand of Zeus that I suffer? Prometheus Then you may assure yourself that these things are true. Io By whom shall he be despoiled of the sceptre of his sovereignty? Prometheus By himself and his own empty-headed purposes. Io In what way? Oh tell me, if there be no harm in telling. Prometheus He shall make a marriage that shall one day cause him distress. Io With a divinity or with a mortal? If it may be told, speak out. Prometheus Why ask with whom? I may not speak of this. Io Is it by his consort that he shall be dethroned? Prometheus Yes, since she shall bear a son mightier than his father.

Prometheus Bound, 757-768. Translation by Herbert Weir Smyth.

[...] when Zeus and splendid Poseidon contended for marriage with Thetis, each of them wanting her to be his lovely bride; for desire possessed them. But the immortal minds of the gods did not accomplish that marriage for them, when they heard the divine prophecies. Wise Themis spoke in their midst and said that it was fated that the sea-goddess should bear a princely son, stronger than his father, who would wield another weapon in his hand more powerful than the thunderbolt or the irresistible trident, if she lay with Zeus or one of his brothers. [...]

Ishtmian Ode 8. Translation by Diane Arnson Svarlien.

Afterwards he married Thetis, daughter of Nereus, for whose hand Zeus and Poseidon had been rivals; but when Themis prophesied that the son born of Thetis would be mightier than his father, they withdrew. But some say that when Zeus was bent on gratifying his passion for her, Prometheus declared that the son borne to him by her would be lord of heaven [...]

Library, 3.13.5. Translation by J.G. Frazer.

[Hera's line] "[...] Themis declared to him the whole truth, how that it was thy fate to bear a son mightier than his sire; [...]"

Argonautica, Book 4. Translation by R.C. Seaton.

Therefore, if Achilles were a woman, then she wouldn’t be the son described in the prophecy. Not being the son described in the prophecy, she wouldn’t be destined to be great. Pyrrha, therefore, wouldn’t need to hide, since the Greeks wouldn’t come after her motivated by the prophecy. She also wouldn’t need to choose between Troy and Phthia, since she wouldn’t really be destined to die for glory.

But if Pyrrha isn’t the child, who is? Well, there is a chance that Thetis had another child and that this one was the child of the prophecy, which would perhaps make Pyrrha somewhat neglected (because Thetis would be focused on protecting the son destined to die young). Some traditions indicate that Thetis had other children besides Achilles, but accidentally killed them while trying to immortalize them (I think the earliest record of this is Hesiod), so it's not so fanciful that she had another child. However, I won't consider this idea. Reason: it implies the idea of Thetis possibly being abused again and again and I really don't want to pursue that idea. So the prophecy didn't follow through because Thetis had Pyrrha and tried to immortalize her out of fear of having a mortal daughter, but Peleus accidentally interrupted her and this angered her to the point where she abandoned Phthia and returned to the sea (this version actually happens in the myth, as shown in Book 4 of Argonautica). With Thetis living in the sea, no more children. That's it. The child of the prophecy never existed. There is a version of the myth of when Athena was born that includes Zeus swallowing Metis precisely so that she would not give birth to a son after a daughter, as Gaia had prophesied that the son would surpass him (e.g. in Library 1.3.6). No children were born afterward and the prophecy was averted, so I guess it's a possibility.

Theoretically, Achilles doesn't need to exist for the Greeks to win. Like, yes, he was certainly very important and did a considerable amount of the work, but the prophecy didn't say that Troy would never fall if Achilles didn't agree to participate. One of the prophecies simply said that Achilles would be very strong, while the other said that he would either have glory but an early death in Troy or live a long but obscure life in Phthia. There's no such thing as "if you don't go after Achilles, you'll never conquer Troy”, it's just that it was known that he was very strong, and logically it was concluded that having him in the army was an advantage. So I don't think that the prophesied son not going to Troy necessarily changes the result, although it certainly changes the process. Of course, Pyrrha could still choose to go to Troy. After all, the Amazons helped the Trojans! However, I genuinely don't think she would. I don't imagine Cleopatra being a warrior (I'll explain why), so Pyrrha couldn't take her along and I can't imagine her being willing to abandon Cleopatra in Phthia.

Pre-relationship

I still imagine that Pyrrha would be raised by Chiron. But not by Peleus's wish (as stated in Iphigenia in Aulis), but by Thetis's wish. I still imagine Thetis wanting to keep her daughter alive, even if the daughter isn’t tragically prophesied because... her daughter is still mortal! And while Thetis's logical way of keeping her son alive was to keep him away from the war by hiding him among girls, Thetis's logic in keeping her daughter alive is to ensure that she knows how to defend herself. Basically, if she made her son weave (a typically female activity), then she made her daughter fight (a typically male activity). Therefore, I still imagine that Pyrrha would be an excellent fighter, she just wouldn't be the great child prophesied. It's not like she needed to have a prophecy to be strong, just look at Penthesilea. Penthesilea, by the way, was the one who really put the Greek men to flight in Posthomerica and was only killed by Achilles, who we know was the strongest of them. Before him, no one was able to face her on equal terms. So yes, while I think Pyrrha not being prophesied prevents her from automatically being the strongest of them all, I don't think it would prevent her from being one of the strongest at the very least. This also fits with my idea of Pyrrha being androgynous.

And if Patroclus were a woman, she wouldn't be Helen's suitor, so she wouldn't be forced to go to Troy because of the Oath of Tyndareus. HOWEVER, her killing Clysonimus would be an even more... well, an even more alarming situation. Don't get me wrong, Patroclus killing Clysonimus was already a crime and certainly had a touch of drama in it, but a girl doing it? Well, it's really something. Just think about how, although both Clytemnestra and Aegisthus are reproved for their actions, Aeschylus reinforces how Clytemnestra is "manly" for being the one who carried out the violence while Aegisthus is "effeminate" for being the one who obtained benefits from the violence without actually carrying it out (more specifically, he obtained these benefits through his erotic abilities, which only reinforces this idea). In Lycophron's Alexandra, one of the ways to discredit Achilles is to paint him as effeminate (and therefore not an ideal man), which includes having him willingly pretend to be a girl because he was afraid and consequently fled from the violence (instead of making Thetis the one who was afraid, as is usual). In Epithalamium of Achilles and Deidameia, attributed to Bion of Smyrna, Achilles is presented in a hyperfeminine manner, although here not in a negative sense but in a positive one. And one of the ways to do that is to make him interested in eroticism rather than the glory of war, which includes the idea of violence. So yes, violence was considered a primarily male trait. Cleopatra doing that has a different impact than Patroclus doing that, although neither case is positive. While in The Iliad Patroclus is known for being gentle (one of his epithets is actually gentle), I think Cleopatra would end up being remembered for the idea of being a girl who not only committed violence but committed violence early and towards a boy. That’s not to say she wouldn’t be gentle, just that she wouldn’t be as well known for it as Patroclus is. Because Patroclus's gentleness set him apart from male warrior characters in the same way that Cleopatra's violence (even accidental) sets her apart from ideally non-violent female characters.

By the way...this may be a shocking idea, but I don't think Cleopatra would be the fighting type. Yes, Patroclus is an excellent warrior, but that's because...well, he received a masculine education in Opus and was a therapon to the guy destined to be a great warrior in Phthia. Cleopatra has no reason to be trained in Opus (unlike Pyrrha, who has Thetis) and she also has no real motivation to train in Phthia, since I think she would be a lady-in-waiting and not a therapon. She wasn't raised among the Amazons and she's not a hunter either, after all. However, of course, I think she would still have a strong personality and would be able to deal with Pyrrha's volatile temper and still be wise. It's an essential part of the Patrochilles dynamic that Achilles honors Patroclus as an equal, after all. It has to be the same with Pyrrha and Cleopatra! Furthermore, I think that, more than ever, Cleopatra would have to be particularly intelligent and wise since that would really be her main skill. It's not like a woman being intelligent and/or wise doesn't arouse similar admiration as a man being a good warrior, just look at Penelope, Hecuba, Arete and even female deities like Persephone. Cleopatra is still admirable.

Relationship

Eventually Patroclus is sent to Phthia and here I imagine that more than ever Menoetius was motivated by the fact that he is related to Peleus (I'm going by the version from the Olympian Ode where Menoetius is the son of Aegina, who is Peleus' grandmother). Something like "hey, I know my daughter did some horrible shit, but take care of her! Please? I don't know what would happen if I kept her in Opus" and Peleus is like "okay, man!". Naturally, Pyrrha would also return to Phthia and meet Cleopatra and they would become close. But Cleopatra wouldn’t be a therapon/squire, but one of those trusted lady-in-waiting that princesses and queens usually have.

In Phthia, I imagine Cleopatra would be concerned about her reputation. While Patroclus clearly cares about the consequences of rash actions, Cleopatra worries about the idea of remaining known for the accident with Clysonimus. As said, it's bad enough for Patroclus, but it would be even worse for Cleopatra. Because of this, she would probably try to be an exemplary person in order to overshadow the rumors. The kind of girl seen as ideal: sweet, modest, skillful, hard-working, delicate. And just as Peleus saw Patroclus as an advisor to Achilles, Peleus would see Cleopatra as a way to balance out the way Pyrrha clearly doesn't fit the social mold of femininity. Something like "I gave you a home in Phthia. In return, influence my daughter positively," and so Cleopatra as a lady-in-waiting would be Peleus' choice. It worked in the sense that Pyrrha would no longer be so impulsive, but it didn't work in the sense that it changed who Pyrrha is. Peleus simply learned to accept reality. He still loves his daughter.

As a lady-in-waiting, Cleopatra would have to accompany Pyrrha in her daily activities. She would take advantage of these times to receive the same high-quality education as Pyrrha in things like dancing, weaving, housekeeping (including finances), how to organize events, necessary social skills (e.g. about other kingdoms)... basically, a typical education for a high-class woman. And she would do well in these activities, as she would be putting in immense effort to ensure that Peleus would not regret his decision to help her. She would also have to accompany Pyrrha when she went hunting or training, but she wouldn’t practice together. I imagine that, having become extremely negatively known because of the incident with Clysonimus, Cleopatra would have a tendency to have an aversion to forms of violence. She doesn't mind that Pyrrha enjoys these things, but she isn’t interested in practicing them herself. At most, she would polish the spears for Pyrrha and make sure all the arrows were in the quiver, things like that. Despite not practicing, she would still have some knowledge of hunting and fighting from watching Pyrrha and having her enthusiastically explain things to Cleopatra. Just like in The Iliad, I still think Pyrrha would have taught Cleopatra what she learned about healing from Chiron just as Achilles taught Patroclus.

I think that, like Achilles, Pyrrha would still care a lot about being honest and therefore wouldn't be the type to use clever tricks. Not that she would be dumb, I think she would be as well educated as Achilles is (because no, Achilles isn’t dumb as much as some people think so), she just wouldn't play mind games because Achilles doesn't either. On the other hand, Cleopatra... oh, I think she would be a bit cunning, yes. Her weapon is her intelligence, that's all she has. She doesn't have the option to fight like Patroclus, as already said. So yeah, I think Cleopatra would quickly become very good at dealing with social situations through the knowledge she has because of her education and through calculated behavior.

I also think their romance would have to be more discreet. While romances between men weren't really 100% approved of, they were certainly much more tolerated than romances between women. But considering how little it was expected for women to be interested in women, I don't think it would be hard for them to keep a low profile. Like, yes, they’re close, but that's because they’re friends! You know how women always have secrets together! Stuff like that.

I had other ideas, but they involve Deidamia (who I imagine to be man here) and Neoptolemus/Phyrrus (unlike Achilles, he is literally essential to the destruction of Troy. There's a prophecy about it. He has to exist), but since you asked specifically about Patrochilles I imagine that wouldn't be of interest to you! Anyway, remember that this is all obviously just headcanon and you don't have to think the same way!

#Ask #Anon #Strawberry Anon #Patroclus #Achilles #Patrochilles #Headcanon #Fem!Patrochilles #Birdie.txt

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jules-ln · 2 months ago

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About mythological ships:

What is your OTP? (favorite romantic/sexual relationship)

What is your BROTP? (favorite platonic relationship)

What is your NOTP? (the opposite of OTP)

You can say more than one in each category if you want

Sure, but it's going to be loooong and there might be some hot takes ahead

OTP

🔹️Patrochilles:I don't need to say what's obvious; but these two own my house, my dog, my soul

Like it's not so much that I think they're perfect for each other, is that I think even when they aren't perfect for each other they still love the other a lot

Besides, I think these two are very interesting Characters on their own right, so a relationship between the two is also very interesting to think about

🔹️Menelaus/Patroclus: I'm sorry, but I know myself and let me tell you, when I have a favorite ship, it always has the character that I don't ship with anyone but the other character, and the character I ship with everyone. So I don't ship Achilles with anyone but Patroclus, and I ship Patroclus with everyone.

So, Idk, I just thought that they must be very close for Menelaus to risk his life to get Patroclus' corpse back. And maybe one day Menelaus will be fed up with Helen and Patroclus will be angry with Achilles and maybe they help each to have a good time 👀

🔹️Briseis/Patroclus: I actually like this as an unrequited love scenario, I imagine Briseis loving Patroclus because he's the only man that has been kind to her in a while, and she doesn't know if it's really love, or if it's her emotions hanging to the one of the few sources of comfort she can find. Like she isn't sure if she would love him if they had meet during times of peace instead of war

Meanwhile, Patroclus just doesn't love her in that way, but he does loves her like a sister, and doesn't want to hurt her feelings either

🔹️Paris/Patroclus: listen, listen, LISTEN, I already said that I ship Patroclus with everyone, and in this case I just thought "Oh, I like Paris, I wished he had someone who didn't treat him like shit and appreciated him" and my brain immediately went "You know who would be amazing at that? That's right, Patroclus because if he can put up with Achilles' shit, he can put up with Paris' shit"

So basically I just want Patroclus to hug Paris against his tits and call him a good boy

🔹️Odysseus/Diomedes: For this I'll explain that I have the headcanon that both Odysseus and Penelope are AroAce and in a QPR

Meanwhile Diomedes is a baby gay who doesn't even know he's gay

So I have the headcanon that Diomedes has a very big crush on Odysseus, and Odysseus of course is like "Oh, this can be useful" and is basically just using Diomedes

🔹️Diomedes/Sthenelus: Like Briseis and Patroclus, I like them more as an unrequited love situation

I imagine Sthenelus being in love with Diomedes since they've met, but Diomedes just doesn't feel the same, he loves his friend, but not like Sthenelus would like him to

🔹️Agamemnon/Clytemenestra:

They are the same, to all the people that says that Agamemnon deserved it, so did Clytemenestra when Orestes killed her

Like, Clytemenestra was angry because it was HER daughter, but later she doesn't has any problem in killing someone else's daughter (Cassandra) So I know for a fact that had Agamemnon and Clytemenestra change places at Aulis, she would've done the same to Iphigenia

So this is a case of unlovable hand in unlovable hand lol

🔹️Peleus/Menoetius: I have nothing to say about this one except that for me is what if Patrochilles but old man yaoi

🔹️Helen/Andromache: this but in a toxic Yuri kind of way where Andromache feels guilty for cheating on Hector but not enough to actually stop and Helen is in for the fun

BROTP

🔹️Odysseus&Penelope: controversial opinion, but like I said, I think they both are AroAce that one day found each other and immediately there was a mutual understanding. So basically they're in a QPR

They want to be together because for them there's just nobody else in the world who can understand them like the other, and sometimes friendship is more powerful and long-lasting than romantic love

🔹️Achilles&BigAjax: I just like them being cousins

I have this headcanon that sometimes during battle Achilles would get up on Ajax' shoulders and then use him as a platform to jump and attack the Trojans lmao

🔹️Automedon&Patroclus: If Patroclus had to be Achilles's nanny, I think Automedon was Patroclus's nanny lmao

Like in my headcanon Automedon is a couple of years older than Patroclus, so Patroclus always goes to him when he wants advice or to complain about Achilles. And Automedon is more than happy to help him and be his older brother

🔹️Menelaus&Agamemnon: I think Agamemnon unironically cares a lot for his brother, and would try to protect him and do everything he can for him

🔹️Hector&Paris: I imagine these two have the relationship of "I hate you, but you ARE my brother"

🔹️Achilles&Odysseus: I love the idea of these two being friends.

I imagine at first Odysseus was like "I'm going to get close to Achilles so I can use him later" but then the dad instincts won, and he started to see him not as the best of the Greeks, but as a young man. And he starts thinking about that maybe Telemachus would be like him one day when he grows up

So he gets too attached and gives him good advice in different things, and of course Achilles doesn't listen to him at all, but he does appreciate the effort and they end up being close friends

🔹️Briseis&Iphis&Diomede: I just love the idea of Achilles' enslaved women being friends and supporting each other, they didn't have much, but they did have each other 🥺

NOTPs:

🔹️Achilles/Briseis: No, never, nope

Like, maybe if every freaking retelling of the iliad wouldn't try to force them to be together with the less chemistry imaginable and making Achilles forget that Patroclus even exist which in turns makes the whole story of the Iliad have no sense, I would like them more, but no

🔹️Achilles/Agamemnon: Short answer? No. Long answer? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

🔹️Poseidon/Patroclus: I'm sorry guys, I don't mess with this. Is just that personally I think the gods just see the humans as toys for their entertainment. So I imagine that if there was any relationship between these two, Poseidon would pretty much treat Patroclus as his personal sex toy, And I like my boy Patroclus too much for him to being used like that

🔹️Apollo/Cassandra: similar to Achilles/Briseis and Poseidon/Patroclus, with the added bonus that I think Apolla was a bitch with Cassandra. Like you can argue that Achilles deserved Apollo’s hate, but not Cassandra

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