#yeah sorry I just have a Thing about NPD/ASPD

[thousandyearphantombunker]

"we want more mentally ill/disabled characters with ugly symptoms!"

You guys can't handle lapis lazuli tony stark or hank pym! You guys can barely contain your ableism toward the hulk! You guys hate the good doctor for all the wrong reasons! You made fun of his speech patterns and his meltdowns wtf like I'm sorry the only autistic person you've supported have been the perfect non annoying type- but too many of especially as children are like shawn- they talk weird and don't understand what's so offensive about what they said

You guys keep saying Lapis should just be rewritten into a villain! I don't like how the show handled her but like your really gonna make the girl who shows ugly bad symptoms of ptsd into villain? You guys keep trying to make hank into a villain or rewrite his past- god forbid a character have really sevre ugly symptoms that causes them to make decisions that permanently effect the story but have them still be heroes! God forbid Ironman have npd and be a hero! Let's shame MCU Bruce for his mental illness for being unable to do things because of it! God as soon as a character with a mental illness or developmental disorder or low IQ shows actual symptoms and behaviors (ei: acts like how someone with the disorder in question acts- you know the main part of having a fucking disorder) you get pissy and pile on the shame- yeah jen you do control your anger better than bruce- you can also stand better than Charles fucking Xavier! Yeah your smarter than a guy with a low IQ want a cookie?

I'm never gonna be one of those people who tell others to stop writing disabled villains or that writing a character that deals with internalized ableism (disabled people like any group of people can be total prices of shit, and I'm sorry not everyone is content and accepting of their disabilities and some of us take comfort in characters that struggle with being angry because of their problems) but Jesus Christ when a heroic character with ugly symptoms who makes cruel decisions or has 'bratty' or 'immature' moments can we let them stay heroes? Can we let them have a disorder without piling on the shame that we are inferior because we can't do something everyone else can- because that's literally what a disability is! Can they still be heroes?

Do we have to use intellectual/developmental disability as a shorthand for anti intellectualism and being a gross annoying psycho

Do we have to make every heroic character with aspd or npd into a villain or change their disability to autism because it's 'more sympathetic' as if lack of empathy isn't a goddamned symptom of many disabilities like PTSD and autism- You can headcanon tony as having autism- that's cool by me but it's clear some of y'all do it to make him a 'woobie'- which is infantalizing btw but also it's because some of y'all are ableist toward people with npd

I hate that the only acceptable 'ugly symptoms' are things like forgetting to shower or brush your teeth every once in a while or being a bit irritable and not stuff like burning bridges or having explosive outburts

Also it's not a mental illness unless it effects your behavior?

Im not saying that we should just accept and allow mentally ill/intellectually disabled people/characters to get away with bad behaviors unpunished but can they stay heroes? Can they still be respectable?

"we want more characters with ugly symptoms"

Yet

You people get offended by low functioning autistic people existing! You get mad at them for being incontinent or nonverbal/making strange noises or having scary anger issues or IQs low enough that they will never be independent you get mad at them for not showing the 'appropriate' reactions to things they may or may not fully understand- you hate people with sensory issues -

You don't want mentally ill/disabled characters- you want characters with the labels of mental disabilities without any of the ugly strange or off putting behaviors mental/intellectual deficiencies/issues cause- you want a romantic tragedy!

You shame people with Alzheimer's for FORGETTING stuff and LOSING SKILLS 'yeah yeah you are superior to your uncle because you can remember stuff but can you remember it's a fucking disease! you people are cruel

Yes you are technically superior to disabled people because you are capable of things we aren't and you have better character and you can control yourself but guess what? Those people you hate for being incapable of that shit have disabilities it's not our faults! It's the fucking definition of a disability! Like yeah it is a skill issue and we're just 'worse' than nondisabled with us lacking self control and having lower IQs and bad mental processing- yeah it is because we're lacking in some capacity that's like the definition disability you can't say you support disabled people and then turn around and say shit about how your better than these people because you can talk or take care of yourself

Hank Pym and Lapis Lazuli should get called out for acting like assholes and pieces of shit but I am firmly against turning one of few heroic characters who actively struggle with psychosis and delusions into another 'psycho' villain and I'm firmly against saying Lapis is just as bad as Jasper and using symptoms of her PTSD as signs she should be rewritten into a villain- I want them to be held accountable not turned into straight up evil guys or dear god washing out their problematic qualities until they're palatable/relatable to a neurotypical audience to make them good guys when they are already good guys!

Can people who do bad things because of their disabilities still be heroes? Can they be allowed to get better or do they have to accept that having ugly symptoms means being the bad guy? Fucking hell this is why I side eye anyone who acts like mental illness/developmental/cognitive or mental etc disabilities are more destigmatized than physical disabilities (trust me they aren't)

Tldr let characters with ugly symptoms be heroes let your characters with mental disorders act like they have a disorder and let said characters be heroes inspite of it!

[aspd-culture]

Sorry ig in advance since you get questions a lot but got curious about a few things

1. Is it normal for pwASPD to view unbeneficial relationships as chores? I know I, a likely prosocial, when I don't see the benefit in a relationship, I have to view it as being a chore to continue it.

2. If a connection is established between harming others and being harmed, will a pwASPD, for lack of a better term, be able to mimic empathy or remorse?

3. Do you know if pwASPD and another comorbid disorder, if the other disorder causes already low or fragile self esteem (like another cluster B), can seem like they don't have ASPD?

These are mostly for project research but also out of curiosity because I can

Nothing to be sorry for!!/gen

1.) Oh yes. So very, very much yes. And honestly, it's even worse than a chore - more like if a dead-end job decided to stop paying you but you'd go to jail if you quit. If you've ever seen a kid stuck dress shopping with their mother on TV, that's the way I would like to act through every single interaction with an equal part useless and annoying but unavoidable prosocial irl. Every single non-Exception prosocial is that coworker you hate who won't leave you alone./hj Joking aside, not all prosocials are actually that annoying actually. So it kind of depends; sometimes it's fine at least for me.

2.) Yeah, I'd say so. This goes differently for all of us, but for the most part "connection formed" would probably go in the direction of an Exception, and that's where some symptoms of ASPD are lessened for those of us that have them. That includes often having some degree of effective empathy and/or a desire to work on cognitive empathy with them in particular (I use them as practice to make the necessary use of cognitive empathy less annoying with non-Exceptions). Ditto with remorse for some pwASPD, though for me in particular that depends on the Exception in question. Some still do not bring out remorse in me for whatever reason. This is a good place to note that actually, since I don't think I've mentioned this elsewhere. Exceptions do not all have to be the same even for the same pwASPD. Two friends may have different symptoms they alleviate vs don't affect vs worsen, and of course platonic vs sexual vs romantic Exceptions often vary in that as well. For me and a few other pwASPD I've met, this may also occur with some groups of people who aren't Exceptions but cause an Exception-esque response. For me, kids get that as most do other people struggling with mental health disorders beyond just depression and anxiety (nothing easy about those two it's just in our current world most people have those). If I hurt a kid's feelings, 25/10 times I am going to cry with them or force myself not to. And that will vary for each pwASPD based on how much social neurological development was completed before it was fundamentally changed and started developing antisocially too. Some of us have more empathy than others, or more remorse than others (and vice versa) in general, so that'll impact those situations too.

3.) So this depends on what you define as "seem like they don't have ASPD", though it won't be self-esteem that affects that. Generally I'd point that more in the direction of NPD. But yeah, looking at the symptoms of ASPD, there are a few specific disorders that cause someone who very much has ASPD to not be diagnosed and/or believed both professionally and personally. In personal relationships, it's honestly just not being a serial k*ller that will get most to think you don't have it. Professionally, you're looking at disorders that cause social problems (such as autism, SAD - social anxiety, and GAD - generalized anxiety), impulse control (ADHD mostly), emotional instability (bipolar disorder, IED - intermittent explosive, ODD - oppositional defiance, and yeah your other cluster b PDs). There are others that make a whole lot less sense imo to get in the way of an ASPD diagnosis too. Schizophrenia comes to mind, with some professionals thinking that it's just... so many episodes of psychosis that it starts to look like ASPD which, don't even get me started on how much of a medical failure it is that I have heard of that specific thing happening. But mostly, it's going to be the ones I listed previously. None of these are mutually exclusive with ASPD, but they have symptoms that overlap with or mimic ASPD's, and so you'll have genuinely good professionals who are trying to avoid over/misdiagnosis where it applies to a *very* stigmatized disorder, and you'll have lazy ones that don't care to try and pick out which it is if not both. That will all just depend on the pwASPD's presentation of symptoms. I had more than one professional refuse to believe I had ASPD, and my (very lovely and dilligent/gen) psychiatrist was also leaning to just diagnose autism until I said some line about the reason I try for social interaction not being because I want to but because everyone has to to be able to get what they need in life. Once she realized I see it as an irritating requirement to associate with other people - even ones I kind of like - she quickly turned on that and diagnosed both. That's why it's important to speak openly and with as much of the mask removed as possible without getting yourself in trouble. They will try and avoid labelling you with something like this unless they are 1000% sure because of its connotations and the social and professional implications of having ASPD. It is very possible to pick out which is which or if it's more than one with overlap in regards to any set of comorbidities even outside of ASPD, but it takes a lot of work for that to be done properly especially if you're still masking in front of them.

I have no issue with anyone asking just out of curiosity by the way. Seriously like I guess I see why some people feel weird about it, but genuine interest is the reason why disorders get looked into, researched, and potentially normalized and accepted. There is nothing wrong with being interested in any topic as long as you're respectful in your interactions with sensitive subjects, and this ask was completely respectful, so I'm happy to answer it./gen

Plain text below the cut:

Nothing to be sorry for!!/gen

1.) Oh yes. So very, very much yes. And honestly, it's even worse than a chore - more like if a dead-end job decided to stop paying you but you'd go to jail if you quit. If you've ever seen a kid stuck dress shopping with their mother on TV, that's the way I would like to act through every single interaction with an equal part useless and annoying but unavoidable prosocial irl. Every single non-Exception prosocial is that coworker you hate who won't leave you alone./hj Joking aside, not all prosocials are actually that annoying actually. So it kind of depends; sometimes it's fine at least for me.

2.) Yeah, I'd say so. This goes differently for all of us, but for the most part "connection formed" would probably go in the direction of an Exception, and that's where some symptoms of ASPD are lessened for those of us that have them. That includes often having some degree of effective empathy and/or a desire to work on cognitive empathy with them in particular (I use them as practice to make the necessary use of cognitive empathy less annoying with non-Exceptions). Ditto with remorse for some pwASPD, though for me in particular that depends on the Exception in question. Some still do not bring out remorse in me for whatever reason. This is a good place to note that actually, since I don't think I've mentioned this elsewhere. Exceptions do not all have to be the same even for the same pwASPD. Two friends may have different symptoms they alleviate vs don't affect vs worsen, and of course platonic vs sexual vs romantic Exceptions often vary in that as well. For me and a few other pwASPD I've met, this may also occur with some groups of people who aren't Exceptions but cause an Exception-esque response. For me, kids get that as most do other people struggling with mental health disorders beyond just depression and anxiety (nothing easy about those two it's just in our current world most people have those). If I hurt a kid's feelings, 25/10 times I am going to cry with them or force myself not to. And that will vary for each pwASPD based on how much social neurological development was completed before it was fundamentally changed and started developing antisocially too. Some of us have more empathy than others, or more remorse than others (and vice versa) in general, so that'll impact those situations too.

3.) So this depends on what you define as "seem like they don't have ASPD", though it won't be self-esteem that affects that. Generally I'd point that more in the direction of NPD. But yeah, looking at the symptoms of ASPD, there are a few specific disorders that cause someone who very much has ASPD to not be diagnosed and/or believed both professionally and personally. In personal relationships, it's honestly just not being a serial k*ller that will get most to think you don't have it. Professionally, you're looking at disorders that cause social problems (such as autism, SAD - social anxiety, and GAD - generalized anxiety), impulse control (ADHD mostly), emotional instability (bipolar disorder, IED - intermittent explosive, ODD - oppositional defiance, and yeah your other cluster b PDs).

There are others that make a whole lot less sense imo to get in the way of an ASPD diagnosis too. Schizophrenia comes to mind, with some professionals thinking that it's just... so many episodes of psychosis that it starts to look like ASPD which, don't even get me started on how much of a medical failure it is that I have heard of that specific thing happening. But mostly, it's going to be the ones I listed previously. None of these are mutually exclusive with ASPD, but they have symptoms that overlap with or mimic ASPD's, and so you'll have genuinely good professionals who are trying to avoid over/misdiagnosis where it applies to a very stigmatized disorder, and you'll have lazy ones that don't care to try and pick out which it is if not both. That will all just depend on the pwASPD's presentation of symptoms. I had more than one professional refuse to believe I had ASPD, and my (very lovely and dilligent/gen) psychiatrist was also leaning to just diagnose autism until I said some line about the reason I try for social interaction not being because I want to but because everyone has to to be able to get what they need in life. Once she realized I see it as an irritating requirement to associate with other people - even ones I kind of like - she quickly turned on that and diagnosed both. That's why it's important to speak openly and with as much of the mask removed as possible without getting yourself in trouble. They will try and avoid labelling you with something like this unless they are 1000% sure because of its connotations and the social and professional implications of having ASPD. It is very possible to pick out which is which or if it's more than one with overlap in regards to any set of comorbidities even outside of ASPD, but it takes a lot of work for that to be done properly especially if you're still masking in front of them.

I have no issue with anyone asking just out of curiosity by the way. Seriously like I guess I see why some people feel weird about it, but genuine interest is the reason why disorders get looked into, researched, and potentially normalized and accepted. There is nothing wrong with being interested in any topic as long as you're respectful in your interactions with sensitive subjects, and this ask was completely respectful, so I'm happy to answer it./gen

[velvetvexations]

i don’t know if you’re open to asks about this type of discourse so feel free to ignore it if you want, you’re still awesome either way, but holy fuck the way people get about no/low empathy people drives me up the wall sometimes.

people equate empathy with compassion and morality far too often, but paradoxically have none for hypoempathetic people. it’s fundamentally unhealthy, because it tries to argue that if you /general aren’t personally invested in an issue or don’t emotionally react, then you can’t care about it at all, which can drive away low-empathy people who do want to help because they’re just going to be criticised for something they fundamentally cannot change. it’s alienating and quite frankly unreasonable, because that rhetoric tells me that they think the feelings and internal workings of a person are more important than their actions and impact. this makes it so empathetic people don’t have to change to consider themselves ‘good’ people by their standards, so they can keep hurting people and defend themselves with their empathy, rather than doing the work to stop. how could they be a Bad person when they care so much about things?? /s

of course this isn’t everyone, but it is quite a few. on the other side of things, if someone with low empathy does something harmful and changes, people may still see them as a ‘bad’ person because they haven’t shown remorse despite the fact that the harmful behaviour has stopped and they may have already for it.

a lot of this rhetoric is implicit, though there are certainly a lot of explicit arguments for it (ie empaths and the misuse of low-empathy personality disorders like npd and aspd). i see a lot of odd wording on how people retaliate against the ‘autistic people are asshole robots who don’t Care’ stereotype. there are a lot of arguments of ‘well actually autistic people aren’t heartless!! we can be hyper empathetic too!! we express it differently but we still feel empathy’ and like, yeah, hyper empathy is really common in autistic people. but what about the ones of us who are ‘heartless’, as you put it? its good that they’re pushing for the understanding of autism to be broadened and i commend them for that, which is why i try my best not to derail posts with this, but what about the rest of us? we still get hurt by the low empathy = pure evil rhetoric, and statements like those don’t actually challenge it. i feel like there’s a difference between ‘autistic people aren’t all low-empathy and it’s a spectrum for a reason’ and ‘autistic people aren’t all low empathy and Bad because most of us are Good and have high empathy’, one is harmful and the other is not.

sorry for the long ask btw, sending love <33

This is all fantastic, anon. <3 Thank you for sending in, I agree with you one hundred percent.

[centi-pedve]

been scouring the regretevator wiki cause i was curious (terrible wiki btw i am so sorry. one page has a citation that just links to some discord bullshit which people who are not in the server obviously cant see) anyways i am getting a terrible impression of the creator(?) and i would be interested in your thoughts on this business if youd be willing to share :3

oh goodness gracious... well we do have Some thoughts and we dunno if they match your own concerns since, we purposefully don't go out looking for whatever the creator has said but yeah even from a distance it's. Not looking good. (Already mentioned some of these before but for the sake of putting it in one place we'll be redundant)

definitely has his own takes on certain characters, headcanons, and the like. it was silly at first but as time went on and the more effort he put into pushing negativity over certain things the less fun it became. we think, if you want people to dislike a character, you try and make them dislikeable within the context of the story and then let people form those opinions. rather than being weird about the fact that there are still people who do like the character and punishing them by denying them the most basic things or even involving them in the story at all because Doesn't Deserve It. yes this is primarily about unple/asant

related but... too much of a reliance on telling stories with twitter or other unofficial platforms. did we learn nothing from the dumbledore is gay tweet. like a huge amount of information on the wiki that is very important to understanding the characters are just is NOT in the game, like if you played the game fully you'd still need to rely on the wiki to be able to participate in fandom. honestly a large part of that is why we're so biased towards certain characters! unple/asant and infe/cted are the only characters with lore and trivia and such that we've bothered to go on the wiki for and memorize. we've played the game for hours and hours but that doesnt mean much lol. once again, unple/asant especially, it literally DOESN'T TALK or participate in ANY of the active dynamic story because Doesn't Deserve It but there's still things to know about unple/asant and people who like the game just want something!! like dunno the overuse of social media in storytelling just makes it so much more unfun, we don't like how information is released and the fact that we need to rely on external material that... is sometimes taken back because the creator has gone on record Just Saying Shit. favorite example vv

Which is really funny considering it has 1 piece of dialogue on the game. So it can physically speak, and is also not "mewing 24/7" by result of having that dialogue (pretty sure the creator was just encouraged to say that without giving a fuck but, whatever). but the things that happen in game are second to the creator's twitter feed AMIRIGHTFELLAS

3. the,. the ableism. we've heard people tried to bring it up with the creator in the past and they were ignored so we feel comfortable mentioning it lol. bi/ve is a stereotype of someone who suffers from paranoia really, we mean we love her but... lol... and we will say it again pe/st should not canonically have npd or aspd. like omggg the evil character that robs people has two pds negatively stereotyped as belonging to evil people we're sure there was no bias in this decision. maybe we'd be less bothered if people didn't treat it as so serious and pretend to be cluster b allies like "you have to give him some understanding cuz he has aspd and npd 🥺" like no because he's evil, also maybe it wouldn't hurt to care about real people with those pds instead of a caricature. also the half-hearted throwing around of the word "mute" for unple/asant has been pointed out as ableist by a lot of people.

tldr uhhh wuhgghh NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK nobody get us (: nobody talk us...

[weabooweedwitch]

I dunno I kinda get the vibe that you also view your mom as a defective loser who can't change? you don't really have any nice things to say about her and seem to hate her about as much as you hate yourself (not to say that your mom isn't a pain and immature as fuck to boot bc she absolutely is). you call her subhuman and an idiot and all these horrible things a lot, before I thought it was just harsh online venting of your deepest most private thoughts but I guess you say that stuff to her irl too? just from seeing those texts, I feel bad because I know you're going thru a lot and you're hurting I don't want to make it worse but I kinda had to agree with the verbal aggression and suicide threats comment. not defending your mom, she is a pain-in-the-ass womanchild, but I can kind of understand why she's so defensive and reactive if that really is the way you speak to her. I'm sorry I know that's probably not what you want to hear or the most validating thing, your feelings are absolutely valid too here and I understand how grating having that type of parent can be, as someone who has a similar-but-maybe-not-as-bad situation over here

btw, as I understand it personality disorders are actually very responsive to therapy. the only reason people with certain disorders like aspd and npd don't get better is because a lot of them don't view themselves as having a problem or view their life problems as mostly other people's fault and don't want to hear the negative criticism. bpd has a very good prognosis too for those that recognize a need to change their behavior.

I mean, ultimately yes, i am real shitty to her off and on, but my opinion I guess is that, the temper and the insults are something that developed over time and is specific to our specific relationship. Like my mom and I have always kind of butted heads, but me being, I guess openly malicious towards her is a development that came about within the last few years, or decade maybe, just progressing over time

It's sort of like, you know, one of the things I hate the most is having to repeat myself because someone wasn't listening the first time, and with my mom, we just have the same issues over and over again that are never resolved, or I keep seeing weird behaviors in her, or she makes decisions that I find literally nonsensical. And its just. I look at her and I see someone still making all the same mistakes she always has, and it makes me angry because, I mean, my entire childhood was fucking ruined from constantly moving and literally being trapped in cars with her while she ranted. My relationship with extended family was ruined just because she had personal grudges that I kinda lowkey think are also her fault tbh. I got moved away from my grandmother because my mom was randomly like "oh I can't find any jobs in Missouri, let's just move 8 hours away to Wisconsin" and she didn't regret it but like, my older sister was completely devastated, and by that age, I myself was so desensitized to the constant instability that I was like "well yeah I don't mind moving again, we switch schools almost every single year or sometimes twice a year, do you really expect me to have any friends to even miss"

Like this developed over time. I didn't always feel this way about her. But as I've grown up, I've changed and she hasn't. She's still the exact same person. Even my father says she is literally the exact same person. It's like the thing with her moving my hairbrush out of the shower and never putting it back. I had to tell her over and over to stop even taking it out, that it's literally just a fucking hairbrush, stop taking it out of the shower where I keep it amd not putting it back and also it quite literally wasn't in her way in any way whatsoever, and she kept doing it, and there's only so many times you can "hey mom please don't do this" "mom please just put it back ok literally just put it back after you remove it" "ok I've asked you repeatedly can you stop touching my fucking hairbrush i need in the shower" until you snap and say "alright you STUPID CUNT if you do this one more time I'll remove YOUR things from the shower and I'll take them straight out to the dumpster" and THAT got her to finally stop

Like it's literally gotten to "you don't listen to me when I'm nice so why should I even waste my emotional energy pretending to be nice to you when i don't think you deserve it". "Why should I act nice to you when I feel so massively unsupported and drained and exploited by you"

Like she quite literally doesn't fucking listen, TO ANYONE. You can communicate clear as day with her and she'll still do whatever the fuck she wants. In the past my sister stopped even letting us into her apartment because my mom would start TOUCHING THINGS every single time we were there, like literally opening her fucking cabinets and touching her dishes and unloading her dishwasher, until my sister was basically screaming at her to stop and then it's "ugh Emily is so hysterical she doesn't take her medicine" like no you fucking dumbass you won't let her have agency over her own belongings in her own apartment after she moved out to literally run away from you and you're still doing it to her as an adult and she'll just look at how extremely upset you are "ugh I was just trying to help 🙄 you should think about how I FEEL"

She pushes and pushes and pushes and then when you snap and lose your patience with her, she goes straight for your fucking throat and acts like everything is your fault and she's just the blameless fucking saint. Sometimes I wonder if she is even capable of giving legitimate apologies because any time you bring anything up with her, no matter how valid you are, no matter how upset you are, she just Always responds with "im sorry but *laundry list of excuses*" or "no that's not what happened. You exaggerate. You need to be medicated." Or the favorite, classical deflection she always uses of "well what about when YOU--"

She will tell you every single day the exact same suggestion that you have already said no to. I was literally growing up in school and she'd constantly say "oh you're so smart, you could be a doctor" until I was telling her over and over "I DONT WANT TO and you make STRESSED OUT because it feels like you're trying to force me". Jesus fucking christ for example it literally makes my goddamn blood BOIL absolutely fucking BOIL that she still says "you should put highlights in your hair" when I've been telling her MY ENTIRE LIFE I DON'T WANT TO, I DONT WANT TO DYE MY HAIR, I DON'T WANT CHEMICALS AND BLEACHES, and she literally STILL SAYS IT like it's this kind of thing that makes me go "what would actually make you listen, fucking beating you like your ex husband? Are all these 'abusive relationships' you cry about and told us about when we were inappropriately young to try and squeeze sympathy out of us just you pushing people until they swing on you"

Like. I'm 26 years old and I feel like my own mother doesn't even try to understand me and i feel like if you asked her a list of personal questions about me that she'd gst most of them wrong. And I also feel like, and have felt like for a long time, that, well I guess to outright be cruel, the biggest reason she had kids was because literally no one liked her and i guess she thought children would have some sort of indentured love to her. She won't even like acknowledge i was an accidental pregnancy, she just deflects and says "no you're my miracle baby bc after I had you I found out I had endo-" "ok but mom you were not actively trying to be pregnant and you didn't like my father by the time I was born can you just at least say I was I unplanned, I'm not even saying it as you hating me, can you just acknowledge I was an unplanned pregnancy" "no :)"

I get absolutely no closure with her. Like. This might seem like an extreme comparison but the other day I was watching bodycam footage for the arrest of Joey McVay, a 10 year old who shot his mom. The story is all "oh his mom shot him because he got mad when he was asked to do chores" but then they dug a little deeper and asked the grandmother and the story was "oh this kid had a disability and his mom was actually a rude slob who worked him like a horse while also still treating him as defiant and incompetent and stupid and even being physically abusive and his house was a borderline dilapidated shack and he snapped and shot her because she made him feel literally worthless" and I was watching that thinking, wow that could have been me.

It's the constant like dehumanization she has pushed upon me while also expecting me to listen to her rant and rant and rant for years about her own problems. 'Sympathy for me but not for thee' kinda shit. I can't keep pouring from an empty cup bro? I can't give sympathy that's no longer there because it was sucked out of me like some kind of energy vampire

Ok but like exactly as I'm typing this my mom woke up and I mentioned to her how I'm trying to book with a dermatologist bc I'm having hair thinning and nail denting and I didn't want to be on the phone so I start trying to Google online, and then I end that topic and switch to , bringing up to her this personality disorder conversation, and she literally fucking interrupts me in the middle of my sentence "do you want me to make the call for you" and I just broke down sobbing because I'm sitting here reopening all my emotional wounds to write this post about how unheard I am and, there she goes doing it again, and now I'm refusing to speak to her because like, you didn't let me speak the first time, why should I waste my time saying it all again 🙃

I dont know. I guess it sounds mean but at this point she does it to herself. I've been worn down and demanded to care over and over while being ignored so now I have no sympathy. At this point its no longer "oh gosh I'm sorry that happened to you" and now it's "well what mistake did you make to fuck things up this time" which, in my defense, like, she does cause most of the problems in her life and my own. Like my god there was a period of time where we had just moved and we barely had any money I mean like financially struggling and she's like "oh I hate having all our canned goods on the floor, it just looks so GHETTO, I don't like it" and she ordered furniture off online and it. It literally. We've lived here for like two years and it still isn't fully assembled becuase she didn't read the instructions when she made it and refused to finish it without my help. Like we barely had money for rent and she wasted money on, a cabinet, because things not looking nice made her feel bad. And then in that same period of time she tried to order a dining room table that we have literally no room for, and I can't even tell you how many months ago she ordered a larger size glass enclosure for her bearded dragon and its been sitting in a box for literal months because. Uh. She expects me to help her assemble it and I told her straight up she shouldn't have even bought it if she won't even put together HER cage for HER pet which she takes poor care of, though I'm one to talk considering how little I've gotten to hold Louie

You just. Can't keep demanding sympathy and never giving it back? You can't raise your daughter constantly texting her instead of speaking to her for every little "oh I have a headache bring me a glass of water" to like the point there were periods of time she'd be lying in bed just shouting out for me instead of getting it herself and I'd barge into the room "it's just a glass of water your bedroom is literally next to the bathroom and we have neighbors, stop shouting you stupid bitch"

Like it gave me a COMPLEX. I've been sick and throwing up and refusing to take medicine and refusing any help from her because I grew up watching her pop pills for everything and argue with doctors and just constantly want help that I never saw returned the same way. She's on the couch next to me right now and she's trying to talk to me and I'm still so upset over being interrupted earlier I'm just popping earbuds in and pretending she isn't even here because the couch and her office chair are the only seats in this whole apartment which of course means she lives on it

Like maybe I could overcome my trauma and change with therapy. But mom? She'll argue with doctors. She'll argue with therapists. She'll like you and then you'll make the smallest slight against her and suddenly she wants nothing to do with you and has a laundry list of things she hates about you. She's a fair-weather mother and I'm sick of it. It's at the point where ant help or assistance or support or love she gives me almost doesn't even matter anymore because the constant mistakes and talking over me is still so constant that there's like a 70/30 hate to love ratio at this point.

I know that's a lot of text but, yeah I guess I can still keep certain disorders in mind but my mom is literally the only person I treat like this

[timxpy]

SOUL WITH VIOLENT OBSESSION LOOKS SO RIGHT NGL. Like, I think he could have both obsessions about harming others and himself. And in the end rituals are no longer helping, and he just... Doesn't know what to do. Alone with this violent thoughts that make you feel like a monster. We need to talk more about this kind of obsessions, ngl they're the worst type of obsessions you might have as a person with ocd. AND OBSESSIONS ABOUT HARMONIA, YEAAAH... I think that perfectly connects with his npd ideals (they're totally relate to Harmony in some ways yeah). AND AGAIN, HIS IDEALS ARE JUST ALWAYS IGNORED. THIS IS SO PERFECT DESCRIBES WHY HE COULD HAVE THESE OBSESSIONS. I think he also would spend a lot of time just for one ritual. Like, twenty minutes for each compulsion.

YOU'RE SO ABSOLUTELY RIGHT UGHHH. I think this conflict between two disorders is the most important and interesting part in ocd + npd Mind headcanon. He's supposed to be rational and obsessions don't look rational!!! LIKE AT ALL!!! AND THIS WILL BE SO FRUSTRATING FOR HIM I SWEAR. Actually haven't got much to say about ocd Mind more, you said like EVERYTHING SO RIGHT. I JUST LOVE TO READ AND READ YOUR POST AGAIN AND AGAIN DISKWKSKDKKD. Just want to add that I had this kind of obsessions like you described anddd I can say that sometimes u feel REALLY stupid when do rituals. Like, always count just to make sure u make basic thing right are annoying and it looks strange for people around you, it's sometimes really hard to explain why you do things this way...

And guess what... YOU'RE ALSO RIGHT ABOUT HEART'S OCD!!! I believe that his obsessions are strongly connected to thinking about his actions. He always think how he looked when he said this or that, or did anybody see how he just uhhh walked??? This really worries him. Always thinking about how u look when u do this or that or did anybody see something that you didn't see in yourself... This will be really exhausting!!! Yaaay they all are suffering again!!!

Yk I really like to see good npd + bpd combo in characters. Like, I like to see good cluster b representation in general BUT SEEING THIS COMBO MAKES ME SOSOSO HAPPY (also I had the same feeling but with npd + aspd combos several times. I'm just really glad to see people don't think about characters like monsters just because they have symptoms of this two disorders). AND NOW THIS COMBO IS WITH OCD TOO AND I JUST LIKE AJAJAJANSNND THIS IS SO GOOD. But Soul is suffering sm ngl. I just can't imagine how hard it'll be to have both lack of self identity and inflated identity (which you need to support with anything that makes you feel like you're actually that kind of person as you think you are) at the same time.

Alsooo, what do you think about pds from other clusters??? Can any of them fit any cccc character in ur opinion???

[Sorry that I didn't answer for long time, I was really tired last two-three days mehhh]

bpd soul propaganda

his relationships with heart and mind are extremely tumultuous. he alternates between encouraging support and harsh criticism. he wants them to be close and loves them, but he's easily frustrated by their conflict and despises them for it.

he seeks a stability that seems impossible for him to achieve. when he doesn't feel like he can be stable, he threatens suicide because it feels like his only option. suicidal and self-destructive behavior is really common in bpd, especially in response to interpersonal distress and instability.

he has very little sense of self. identity isn't something he feels like he has the right to have (since personal separation is contradictory to trying to be Whole), but also, it seems like something he just can't get a grip on even if he tried.

I think that he has extreme attachment issues in concord. he's terrified that things will go wrong again, worried one of them will get hurt or disappear whenever he's not keeping an eye on them. he wants to know exactly where they are and be told when they're leaving because otherwise he'll panic about their absence.

on that note, his fears of hurting them or ruining things when things seem stable are something a lot of people with bpd struggle with. there's this underlying fear that the things "inherently wrong with you" will ruin everything you touch, either because of personal experience or internalized demonization.

if you headcanon Whole as a distinct person, that would be his favorite person. the extreme, almost religious idealization and having your entire sense of self revolving around a person (or really, the perception of perfection you have of a person) is a clear sign of having a favorite person. the abandonment issues would also be the worst with Whole, for obvious reasons

also i think it would be neat if this was a more widespread concept

[wawawawawawawawawawawawawa]

wait, wtf, I feel like that??? Should I have a check up? (same nonny as the last one)

RUH ROH RAGGY 😭😭

why does this keep HAPPENING to me!!! 😩 either i dont have aspd and its something more common or a LOT OF YOU SECRETLY HAVE ASPD

so i guess heres the "so you think you have aspd" guide!

hold off on a professional diagnosis. this is echoed by a fair deal of aspds, especially here on tumblr. (theres an aspd community on reddit but yk... its REDDIT....) a professional diagnosis does nothing for you as there are no medications for aspd, and it CAN be used against you to discriminate against you and, worst case scenario, forciby institutionalize you. if you REALLY wanna know for sure professionally, you can, but im just making known a Community Opinion

RESEARCH. YOUR. SYMPTOMS. are there any other disorders they could be caused by? a good starting point is ADHD, autism, and other cluster B disorders. look at the clinical stuff like the dsm/icd criteria, but the crucial point here is the experiences of people who have the thing. having symptoms and daily life explained through the lens of what its like to have them, versus what they are clinically, is gonna be crucial to figuring this out.

i'd reccomend your-aspd-dad for aspd, and npdsafe for npd! i dont have any blogs for bpd and hpd, though, sorry :( your-aspd-dad is a goldmine of aspd experiences and they even talk about comorbidities (with autism and npd, which'll make the aspd traits manifest differently. for instance, im not criminal or even outwardly mean because i care about my reputation to a grear degree, which is the npd kinda keeping the aspd "in check" as it were)

i just talked abt it but yeah remember comorbidities exist. its like pringles man, once u pop u cant stop, except a mental health version. once you snap... oh crap!!

avoid sensationalized bs. just... stick with personal anecdotes, theres a lot of aspd misinformation out there. and STAY OFF QUORA PLEASE STAY OFF QUORA. LISTEN TO ME. DO NOT GO ON QUORA. HEED MY WARNING

and just because u have the Emotions Thing, its not a set in stone deal that u have aspd! try not to get tunnel vision looking into this, and dont forget to 💞🌈✨️ believe in yourself! ✨️🌈💞

but yeah the mmmost important things to remember are that theres a lot of misinfo and mental health is varied and complex. from what ive seen about aspd, its a very "youve met one person with aspd, youve met ONE person with aspd" kinda deal. im not exactly like any of the your-aspd-dad mods or anyone in the actuallyaspd tag or my brother and if you DO have aspd, you might not be anything like me!

(no really, if you doubt yourself too much ur gonna second guess urself constantly)

good luck!! god i hope i dont secretly Not Have ASPD haha that would be wildddddd anyway!!! good luck??!? have fun??!?!?!?!?!?!?!? AAAAAAA!??!?!?!

[dreamdropsystemarchive]

Yeah.. it really sucks.. I liked the movie up until the point where they demonized DID :/ I didn't like the stuff after that.. it really hurts when something gives disorders a bad reputation, especially since it affects those with the disorder more than people realize. They did that with ASPD and NPD as well and it really sucks because just because you have a disorder doesn't make you bad or a serial killer! I thought it'd be triggering for me too since I have trauma of a lot of those things too, but for some reason I just felt numb. I definitely agree though! DID deserves a better reputation. I did hear that Mr Robot has a pretty good portrayal of DID, but I wouldn't know cause I haven't watched it. It's okay to be mad though! Anger is a completely justified emotion to misinformation being spread. It's really annoying when people do that! And it's alright! I don't mind dark topics..

It's a good song I think.. Y'all can listen to it if you'd like, but of course you don't have to if you don't feel like it! -🌺

big agree. the mainstream media demonize people with mental illnesses especically people DID did or BPD or NPD or ASPD. mental illness in genral is terrible.

theres a movie called So What If It Works and its a great DID/OSDD rep but horrible OCD rep.

We watched Perfect Blue and actually didn't hate it but the DID rep was terrible. If it was just about a pop star losing her mind we would have liked it more

time to pirate mr robot again and watch it but were into so much rn its too much. sorry were drunk as hell lol sorry if im talking in circles.

wish there was gold DID/OSDD rep out there maybe MoonKnight will be it but his alter is a serial killer so we already expect it to be a shitshow - Shane and others

[inanawesomewave]

MY FRIENDS SAY I HAVE NO EMPATHY, BUT I DON’T UNDERSTAND WHY THEY FEEL THAT WAY.

Since I started therapy a while ago I’ve started to notice there are parts of my personality that are cooling down when before they’d spill over and reach boiling point. I’m still combative but I know which battles to walk away from -- no, I know which battles to not forcibly insert myself in even though they had fuck all to do with me and all I wanted was an excuse to fight. I’m better at laying down a healthy boundary rather than puffing my chest out and becoming as intimidating as possible to someone who didn’t know they’d flouted a boundary I forgot to lay down, and instead plotting to harm them for doing such a thing. I have started to accept that my rage about my childhood isn’t something that can ever go away and it shouldn’t have to, but that I can move with it without having to convert it to something I can’t accept like forgiveness or acceptance. I know how to be angry at one thing, and I’m learning how to compartmentalise that anger without turning it into anger at everything else. I’m not great at these things, but I’m getting aware, and I’m trying. 

Something peculiar has happened, possibly for the best, since we hit our stride with the therapy. We’re doing some schema stuff, that’s what worked for me in the past, and my therapist goes over some old traumas with me and we look for repeating patterns, why that might be, and how I’m reacting to things, how I might be contributing to my own unhappiness and fury. But also, without him telling me, “here’s how to empathise, and here’s why you should do it”, I’ve started to look at empathy in a new light. Let me explain.

It happens when I’m watching a tv show or a film. A character will say something to another character, something hurtful or cruel, and for the first time in my life I’m stopping to think, not even consciously, “I wonder how that other person feels having heard that?”. I’ll think, “I say things like that all the time and it doesn’t mean anything to me, but that other person seems hurt. Don’t they know it doesn’t mean anything?” and then I realise, “no, they don’t.”. It’s not like I’m consciously scouring for empathy, but i’m noticing it. Right now, it’s only in fiction, but it’s the first awareness of concerted empathy I’m having about myself. And it’s funny, because I sit there and I’ll hear a character say the kind of things I would normally quite casually say, and I’m starting to confront why it is cruelty can often spill out of me without me noticing what the big deal is. I think it’s because, for antisocials who are made by their environment (i.e are abuse victims), the language of cruelty is the one we were taught fluently. I remember being a small child and saying something quite hurtful to my dad (he wasn’t abusive in any way, he was very compassionate and supportive). He didn’t shout at me, but he sat me down, and said: “That thing you said to me, that was really hurtful and it’s made me sad. Why did you say that?” and I remember bursting out into tears. It wasn’t so much that I’d hurt him, though that was part of it, it was that I was stunned at my own obliviousness as to how I could have hurt someone I really loved. How could someone I care about so much be hurt by something I said? How did I not notice I was doing that? With my mother it was always different, she used to refer constantly to “a battle of wills”, so cruelty was something she wanted to match word for word. Her punishments were bizarre and severe, and if I didn’t react to that punishment with deference and regret, she would tell me, “I won’t enter into another battle of wills with you”, and the whole thing would become a face-off. She never told me, “that thing you said to me was hurtful”, or “I’m sorry I said that hurtful thing to you”. It was always, “yeah? You think that’s hurtful? You should hear what I’m about to say to you next”. It was a rally, a back and forth, a constant testing of boundaries on both sides. I was punished for not being subservient enough, and then forced into that subservience by any means necessary. Of course I didn’t learn how to be considerate of others, I was having to feign empathy and consideration for my abuser so she’d leave off me and believe I was on her side, and then learn how to resent myself for at least appearing to display weakness to her. If I were a gold star sociopath, no other personality disorder, I’d probably be able to rationalise this pretend subjugation as being part of the game. But I have at the very least some significant traits of narcissism, so the battle going on in my head was one of survival, and self-loathing at how I appeared to survive. Of course, in this melee, I never really learned what empathy looked like. I only ever saw empathy as: 1. Something I have to perform to stay safe. 2. Something people perform so they can exploit you. 3. A lie people tell to get what they want. 4. A foolproof way to collect allies. 

Now, at the ripe old age of 30, I still don’t fully understand or trust the safety of empathy, and I’m not sure how deep into the empathy rabbit hole I want to go. Do I want to learn how to naturally experience it, the automatic ping of it when I witness pain in another person? Not really, no. I’m still stubbornly holding onto my personality disorder like a shield. After all, that’s why they form. Survival. I’m not even sure how I feel about having the nature of empathy unfold before me like this. I feel... deficient. There’s nothing quite so infantilising as having to go through the motions of empathy through tv characters, like a child being taught by a therapist through play. I feel confused, because there’s three ways in which I can be mean: there’s the concerted, applied way in which I work out what would hurt that person the most and then I say it. There’s the panic move when I’m in a conflict and I need to get out of it on top, looking like I have some power, so I say the thing that will push the red button so I can leave the situation having tricked myself that I won it. Finally, there’s the one I’m currently learning -- there’s the fluency of my day to day cruelty, my natural speech which is peppered with insults and personal bait, the things I don’t realise I’m saying. The things I don’t try to say, or craft, or plan. Just the way I am, the language I speak. And that’s what I’m confronting right now, and it’s coming through when I see it reflected back to me on television. I’m not sure how I feel about it. I’m not sure that I like it. Admittedly there’s a blackness in me that wants to learn from this in a bad way, like: “Oh, I see. So that’s what people look like when they’re upset or hurt. I’ll make a note of that. This could make me powerful.”. But then I think of an old friend of mine who ended up in a medium secure unit after doing some quite... reckless things... who had a diagnosis of ASPD and also NPD. He emailed me from in there, telling me, and I quote: “And when I'm out I won't have changed, I'll still be me, I'll just have learned and I will be much more careful. “. It took him two more years to come down from his tower and what did he find when he got to the bottom? That sometimes loving people leads to being loved, and sometimes showing empathy leads to being empathised with. Our thinking is very transactional, as sociopaths. I’m sure we’re being empathised with all day long, but as we are so primitively minded, we haven’t noticed. So long as what we’re putting out is insincere, then we are convinced that what we get in return must therefore be insincere. I realise it’s not about faking it well but trying it hard, and I’m not sure where I want to be with that. After all, this personality disorder and its narcissistic little brother kicking at my shins all the time has kind of protected me. At the very least, it kept me alive. 

Empathy. What a bizarre concept indeed. 

[fierceawakening]

What about the difference between people with PDs who behave badly enough to get diagnosed by a psych and people who self-diagnose based on things like "reading many people talking online about their interior experiences and going 'Aha, a name for this thing I've always felt!'" Like if you always feel ineffably superior to those around you, but you also value being kind and have good self-control, you're unlikely to get a professional NPD diagnosis, but self-knowledge and resources are helpful.

Yeah, that’s likely part of it. I have… complicated feelings about self-diagnosis, and I’m not sure any side of that debate is quite “my side.” 

On the one hand, I realized I wasn’t getting the kind of long-term mental heath care that I needed when I read something about PTSD, and realized “wait, that sounds like what keeps happening to me a few months after my ‘situational depression’ ‘clears up.’” So I asked for a rec for someone local who specializes in trauma, called that person, and said “I’m not the professional, you are, but does it sound like maybe I… because it…?” And now I have good health care and a diagnosis that both of us agree fits better. So I am both self-diagnosed AND professionally diagnosed.

But on the other, there’s a lot of self-diagnosis out there that’s more like “I watched a few youtube videos on this and realized I have some of these traits. fuck the system, I have the disorder.”

And there’s a lot wrong with the system, but…I also feel at least a little convinced by the professionals who worry that saying “I have some of these traits” without saying “I have the problems usually associated with having this illness” makes things weird and confusing.

Because then you get things like confusion over “be sure you still love me when I show symptoms.” Because if “love me when I show symptoms” means, say, to use me as a test case, “please talk to me soothingly when I lash out from triggers and remember to ask me later if I really meant I hate you, as odds are I was actually mad at ME and being irrational about it” then yes, loving people when they show symptoms is good and something people should do.

But if “love me when I show symptoms” means “love me when I ‘fail to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest’ (ASPD criterion)or even “just”

“love me when I demonstrate ‘consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations’“ (ASPD criterion)

the problem with that is… those things affect more than just you.

So yeah, I actually am not trying to say “I hate weird people who don’t emote much.” I’m trying to say, “If you tell people you have one of the bigguns, just telling them ‘but I’m ethical’ doesn’t really help, because as soon as they look it up, they’re gonna see, like, ‘irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults’ (ASPD) or ‘is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends’ (NPD)

and well

I’m not gonna say unconditional love is not a thing, but I am gonna say it’s hard to love someone when they’re showing that.”

That’s what’s weird to me, that idea that those things are morally neutral. I can’t wrap my head around that. I keep trying because people keep telling me that I’m not being solicitous if I don’t but I just keep going back to that

and

just

sorry, if you’re prone to physical violence or exploiting people, I can feel sorry or bad for you (empathy or sympathy depending on who’s counting) but I can’t believe that you’re prone to behaving well without proof.

[aspd-culture]

We’re the system that you recommended considering an ASPD self dx with how strong the symptoms are. (The one with colored bold text). Our main host deals with severe bpd symptoms and moderate npd. We put down the concept of having aspd for a bit cause we were still not sure, however, due to a recent trigger for host who has Not been doing great, the alters with prominent aspd traits started to front more and the ASPD felt *a lot more* evident when it wasn’t being muted by the host with BPD.

Our host’s FP is, to some extent, also considered our collective Exception even though we all experience the symptoms differently and even most of us don’t really Want much to do with them, but considering even Host has a hard time with genuine intimacy with people outside this person, it’s easier for all of us to kind of just consider them both our FP and our Exception even if it doesn’t apply for most of us. Gotta keep the group somewhat cohesive ya know?

Anyways, we’re going to mostly keep the aspd stuff to ourselves just because we don’t think anyone will believe us due to the extent of our masking and we don’t want anyone to know anyways, but yeah, after some deliberation, we have decided to self dx with ASPD cause we didn’t realize how strong it was since host is basically running bpd.exe all the time.

To celebrate: Aspd culture is spending your entire life hoping someone gives you a really good reason to scar them for life so they know you’re dangerous and leave you alone.

aspd-culture is

I’m sorry your host hasn’t been doing great. I hope things ease up for you. It’s always good to know more about yourself and your system, but of course it’s easier when it doesn’t come through stressful means.

It probably is a good idea to keep the self dx a personal thing irl while you are processing it, and of course it’s perfectly ok to keep it that way in general if you prefer, but especially while you process it I think it helps to limit the pool of irl people who know.

Congrats on learning about yourselves! And on another note that color coded text was so nice for my ADHD brain to read, like you have no idea how much I loved the color coding and use of bold. I didn’t know you could even do that in asks!

Lastly, that celebratory aspd culture is is such a mood.

[vulva-o-queef]

@hestiaq​ (making a new post because I don’t want to keep reblogging a long threat)

I’m really sorry for what you were put through. I sincerely hope you’re in a better situation now and doing okay. That’s horrific.

I remember the Ted Bundy bit you’re talking about- and she’s…. honestly quite right? If enough men have NPD/ASPD a few of them are going to seem intelligible, I think. I don’t really understand what you’re saying about Ted Bundy- if it’s tongue in cheek or not.

Okay, like I said, I haven’t seen this post she made. necromancerdoll just said that larps said sociopaths/psychopaths “can’t perform well in society/function with others.” I know aspd and being a sociopath are often considered the same thing, and I know a lot of them are pretty transparent assholes. Psychopathy isn’t a formal diagnosis at all, but criminal psychologists do use the term, and there’s a pretty solid consensus on what it means. Some people say psychopaths are a subset of sociopaths, and other people say it’s a similar but distinct thing, but in either case, one of the main characteristics of a psychopath (which a sociopath doesn’t, or doesn’t always have) is that they’re smooth and charming, and they use those traits to manipulate others.

My comment about Ted Bundy was sarcastic (and probably not in very good faith, but also wasn’t really related to the main point of all this), because saying psychopaths “can’t perform well in society/function with others” is the opposite of the truth. Ted Bundy was charming, socially adept, approachable, and likable, which was exactly how he managed to lure in many of his victims. He would put on a fake cast and ask women to help him get things into his car, which is what that scene from silence of the lambs is based on. Larps might be totally aware of all that and just phrased something too broadly. The only way it would be relevant to the rest of what I’m saying is, if she really meant to say that psychopaths are socially inept, it would be another example of how she tries to speak as an authority on mental disorders she doesn’t understand. Mostly I was just poking fun.

Women are over-diagnosed. But I don’t understand how Larps pointing out shitty behavior is the same as “diagnosing everyone”. Also, she’s talked about how borderline personality is over-diagnosed and often ascribed to women who are dealing with trauma.��She’s also not talking about it from a “I don’t personally like them” only- “these people” are people who are cruel and vicious and play victim when called out on their cruel vicious behavior.

Clearly, you and I interpret the things she says about bpd and ‘cluster b’ in general very differently. For one, diagnosing anyone over the internet is absurd. In my first response to her, I did agree that she has made some good points, mostly about the link between autogynephilia and narcissism. But that’s about noticing an overarching theme within a specific population, and there’s already a decent amount of academic writing about that link. Case studies done by real psychologists. Actual studies done with controls and statistics and so on. And even with stuff like fucking “trans lesbian” dating profiles that larps points out herself, there is some solid evidence there due to the sheer repetition of entitled attitudes, fetishism, etc, the list goes on. My issue is with the way she thinks she understands BPD when she clearly doesn’t, how she applies “cluster b” or bpd to an awful lot of people, largely young ‘transmen’ or radfems she doesn’t like, and how whenever anyone she’s put down for having BPD tells her to cut it out, or tells her that she’s wrong about them, she dismisses anything they have to say by citing “people with bpd are insane,” or telling them they’re being irrational due to their disorder. Basically she’s using it as a shield to avoid being held accountable for the things she says. “Anyone who’s telling me borderline people aren’t irrational is only saying that because they’re borderline, and therefore they’re irrational!” I’m not saying she’s diagnosing “everyone.” And regarding transmen specifically, there are a lot of psychological factors involved in that situation, and for someone who’s so vocal about the cultlike, exploitative, backwards nature of the trans movement, you’d think she would understand how absurd and frankly just plain egotistical it is to think she can simplify all of those psychological factors and dynamics down to “cluster b.” Again - remember that she’s talking about people she’s never met in her life, usually judging from one blog description, a handful of posts, or sometimes nothing more than a fucking selfie.

Even as a younger girl with supposed “BPD” (who even identified with the label)- I wouldn’t have found this stuff offensive, and if it did (which I might have, and sometimes still do)- it’s really that easy to log off or go outside.

That’s good for you, and I respect your perspective. And you’re right, I could just log off and ignore what larps is saying. You can say that about anything anyone says on the internet, and technically it’s true. But I didn’t. The things she’s saying are ignorant, I find them personally hurtful, and I think she’s spreading misinformation, harmful stereotypes, and regressive thinking. I see that she’s saying dehumanizing and belittling things to women on this site who deserve respect, and probably worst of all, I see that there are a lot of people who look up to her, ask her for advice, sometimes idolize her a bit, and many of them will believe pretty much anything she says. She’s feeding them bullshit and some really vile ideas about mental health stigma, and how people with certain disorders (mainly BPD) deserve to be treated. I don’t think she’s the devil incarnate, and I don’t think she’s out here ruining lives and destroying families. I think she’s an asshole with an inflated sense of her own insight and knowledge, and I decided to say something. I could have logged off, but in this case, I didn’t. That’s all.

...I don’t understand how Larps memeing on a Tumblr blog and often posting insightful ideas about personality disorders is “insulting, ignorant, and dehumanizing”.

Yeah I don’t know what you consider “insightful,” but posting the definition of “insane” and copy-pasting a list of bpd symptoms and saying “see? these people are insane,” and tagging her response to my post with #have u ever noticed how all of these people have personality disorders (callback to “anyone who’s telling me borderline people aren’t irrational is only saying that because they’re borderline, and therefore they’re irrational!”) ...doesn’t quite cut it in my book.

She doesn’t bring up cluster b whenever she “feels” someone is acting unreasonable and dramatic- they… are unreasonable and dramatic- at least in whatever context, and people don’t have to dig deep to see who someone really is to be able to just say “no that’s insane, bye”.

Mmmm... I realize you see the situation differently from me, but am I acting insane? I mean, at worst, I’m making the undeniably blunt way she talks to people into something bigger than it needs to be. And yeah, I know... classic cluster b, amiright? But even if that’s the case, even if I’m misinterpreting her views, surely you can see where I’m coming from. And there are quite a few people who have the same objections that I do (mostly radfems, radfem adjacent women, terves, etc.). When she wrote that tag #have u ever noticed how all of these people have personality disorders, isn’t it clear that she was referring to me, as well as the rest of the radfemmish women who have been speaking against this behavior from her lately? Isn’t she making an assumption that I have a personality disorder (which I do not)? 

Do you really think my objection to the way larps talks about bpd is an indication that I have a personality disorder, and that I’m insane? Unreasonable at worst. But yes, she is absolutely using the excuse that those who object to her saying borderline people are irrational are saying so because they’re borderline/irrational. And like I said, I’m hardly the only example of her saying things like this. Someone just reblogged the original post of all of this and said #I just blocked larps bcuz shes been reblogging random old posts from me calling me a cluster b as bait #as far as I know I’m the only quote on quote crazy bihet that doesn’t have a pd? Someone else wrote #I really looked up to larps hence I’m so torn about this #if I didn’t believe she was a smart and decent well meaning person I wouldn’t care. That’s just on that particular post, within the last few hours.

People with personality disorders are diagnosed because they’re anti social and cause harm to those they “love”/interact with and the cluster b community (that I hung around) spend most of their time groveling in misery- despite often constructing their own fantastical narrative of people horrifically abusing them and demanding to be coddled for every emotion.

Some of them, yeah. Not all of them, and not enough to justify making assumptions about people you’ve never met.

What I mean is- the pain that they’re feeling is an offense to ego a LOT of the time. And other’s shouldn’t have to walk around eggshells to make sure that they don’t injure others egos.

Agreed.

Like it’s not real, rudfems don’t enable or contribute to violence against women. None of these women, no matter how mean they are, contributed to the pain I experienced in childhood for being called BPD- actually it was always men and handmaidens.

I didn’t accuse larps, or any other ‘rudefem’ of contributing to violence against women. I know that men were the reason ‘hysteria’ could be diagnosed in the past, and I know that men are the reason bpd is being overdiagnosed in women today. And I’m honestly not even trying to say larps is being misogynistic to the women she says this stuff to (though re-reading, I realize it could easily sound that way). Misogyny or not, dismissing someone’s perfectly measured, reasonable objection as irrational just because they have a bpd diagnosis - which in several cases, dr. larps diagnosed all by herself - is unacceptable, is the same pattern and circular justification used on ‘hysterical’ women in the past, and is particularly bad because, as we agree, bpd is too often being diagnosed as the new version of hysteria. She’s re-enforcing age-old stereotypes about mental illness, and she’s buying into it so completely that she really believes that borderline people are so unreliable that she knows what’s going on in their heads better than they do. Hence saying that borderline people objecting to her backwards stereotyping are doing so out of a kneejerk reaction to a damaged ego, rather than because they know what she’s saying is false.

Also - she isn’t talking about everyone with “diagnosed” BPD.

If that’s what she means, then she’s the one who needs to say it, not you. Again, I respect that you have a different view of this, and I understand your perspective, I can’t believe what others say about her intentions and supposed read-between-the-lines distinctions, when she doesn’t say it herself, and the things she says and the way she acts do not communicate what you’re saying about her.

Meaning, there’s a distinction between people who have been diagnosed and are suffering, and people who have been diagnosed (or not) and are cruel and have a total lack of insight and disregard for other people.

Mental health is complicated. You can’t divide people with bpd into two clean categories like that. That’s not how it works. And you CERTAINLY can’t lump people into the “bad” category simply because they don’t like how you talk about their disorder. You can’t see someone objecting to what you’re saying and assume that YOU know that they’re coming from a “total lack of insight.” People are not psychic. Larps is using the fact that some people with pds have a lack of self-awareness to dodge accountability when it’s convenient for her. It’s complete circular logic - something you would think she would be above, no? “they’re irrational, and when they complain about me calling them irrational, I can shut them down by saying that any complaint they make is irrational.” I know I keep saying this, but it’s true. In my first comment, I pointed out that this is her pattern, and what was her response? hashtag have u ever noticed how all these people have personality disorders. fucking exactly what I said her response would be, because that’s the only excuse she has. 

And yes, insight is a qualifying factor that “””exonerates”””” (quite a loaded word in this context????) someone from being “really” BPD. The thing about BPD is that they will not (or cannot) change- like it’s not a fixed part of your personality, and if it is- you deserve to be called out, and if it isn’t and you still behave like that… you deserve to be called out, still.

Again, no. If this is the case, then we need to make a second definition to separate “REALLY bpd” from “sorta bpd,” since currently they both meet the same diagnostic criteria. It’s not up to you, or larps, to create definitive new categories of mental illness.

I went from being told I had “borderline tendencies” to being diagnosed with full BPD, to basically nothing at all, because I became aware of those patterns, learned how to be objective about my thoughts and emotions, and practiced resisting them to the point where they only show up if I’m already in a really bad state. I don’t consider myself to have - or to have had - a personality disorder, because I’ve almost completely gotten rid of those mental reactions. But I know people who do have BPD, who are self aware, who are trying the same things I did, but the difference is that even though they now have the tools to keep them in check, those mental and emotional reactions are still present for them, and likely always will be. To say they don’t REALLY have bpd because they’re able to control it is frankly insulting. “If you’ve been able to improve it through treatment, you never really had it in the first place.” I know that’s not how you meant it, but that’s what it boils down to.

BPD is not defined by a lack of self-awareness. It’s a pattern of ingrained emotional and mental reactions (and, subsequently, behaviors). These often develop as a method of self defense against external abuse. Or sometimes there’s no abuse and it’s there anyways. The cause isn’t always clear. But the criteria calling these symptoms “pervasive” doesn’t mean the individual is unaware of them. People who know they have bpd, and who are working on treating their bpd still have bpd.

“...deserve to be called out”... it’s not larps’ business to “call someone out” for having bpd. She can call someone out for acting like a shithead, but simply having bpd is not a flaw that needs to be criticized. Your phrasing makes it seem like that’s what you’re saying, and although I’m pretty sure that’s not what you meant, that’s what larps seems to think.

Not only are neither you nor larps qualified to determine the “category” of bpd that people on the internet who you’ve never met fall into, but even IF that’s how she sees it, then, again, she needs to say that herself, and she needs to reflect that view in the way she treats people.

But to conclude, she really does make that explicitly clear that she doesn’t think everyone with BPD is a “screeching, manipulative, hysteric”.

Where

You made a bunch of excuses for her and I still have no reason to believe any of it is true

However, I’m mostly speaking for myself here because I’ve been hanging around tungle for too long and I mostly want to say that this all doesn’t really matter. Like, so many feminists on here ramble on about “but what about bpd women who get misdiagnosed?” yeah I didn’t face brutality at the hands of snarky women on the internet. These are not the people that even enabled the violence that me or many other women with trauma face.

Again, I didn’t say that. I don’t think she’s destroying lives either, I was just frustrated, saw that many other women are frustrated about her too, and I felt like saying something, so I did. That is the extent of my motivations here. I do think that she is spreading harmful stereotypes and misinformation, but I’m under no delusion that she is causing damage on a massive scale. She is, however, just one more raindrop in the proverbial ocean of mental health stigma. Insignificant as a single drop may be, surely it’s no less significant than any of those people with bpd whose bad behavior you say should be called out. If it’s larps’ business to call them out, then it’s just as much my business to call her out.

It’s not up to her and other women like her to clarify every single thing they say- people DO generalize and we should be able to communicate without having to specify for everyone.

I’m not asking her to clarify “every single thing” she says, I’m asking her to stop acting like a shithead, labeling people she’s never met, acting like she’s an authority on personality disorders, and using her actually wildly skewed perception of these disorders which is steeped in regressive, harmful, and demeaning stigma and stereotypes about mental illness in order to manipulate her way out of being held accountable for any of it. I’m not telling her to stop generalizing for the purpose of communication, I’m asking her to stop making inaccurate generalizations based on stereotypes, and to stop using “cluster b” as a catch-all for bad behavior. Just because someone is a shithead, or unreasonable, or overdramatic, doesn’t make them borderline, and it’s insulting to the people with bpd who are truly good people, who also have to deal with their disorder being an internet trend for self-dx’ers to milk sympathy and excuse their abusive behavior (sounds just like what larps would diagnose as cluster b, I know, but it turns out that many people who don’t have bpd exhibit these traits as well), deal with shitty treatment from healthcare providers who read the diagnosis and think they know everything about you before you even walk in the door (back when I had the ‘full bpd’ diagnosis, a therapist said to my face that people with bpd were considered ‘used goods,’ and my current psychiatrist treats me with an absurd and totally unjustified level of suspicion), deal with the massively pervasive stereotypes everyone else holds about bpd (ranging from ‘serial killer’ to ‘used goods’ to ‘fake trend on the internet to get attention’), as well as dealing with - oh yeah - the actual fucking disorder, as well as often comorbid cases of PTSD, depression, anxiety, bipolar, etc.

I’m just saying, it would be a lot more effective and hurt a lot less people you supposedly didn’t mean to target if you just called out the actual behavior instead of “calling out” a disorder. Additionally, I’m pretty sure that people with bpd who do lack self awareness are far more likely to respond to direct criticisms of their behavioral patterns than they are to respond to the label of bpd being “called out.” They’d just see the latter as more fuel for self-pity. It’s a little harder to justify being the victim of someone saying “hey stop being abusive.”

And if that’s not enough reasons for you, consider: people who have shitty behaviors who don’t have a cluster b disorder (yes, larps, they exist) are just gonna hear criticisms of a disorder they don’t have and brush it right off. Call out the actual behavior, and there’s a chance they might recognize it in themselves. It’s like a quadruple win.

A hallmark of bpd/npd/aspd/hpd is having no insight into that, that people say shit, and you take what you can and leave it-her, or me, or anyone else mincing that up….. doesn’t help bpd women live in a world where nobody is going to mince anything up ever. It did not help me when people coddled me, and I intuitively knew that and was deeply frustrated with it.

You’re right that it doesn’t help to have people make excuses for you or ‘coddle’ you. But not being unfair and pushing harmful stigma is not the same thing as “coddling.” Nor is “not mincing” words the same thing as saying things that are untrue, unfair, dismissive, and insulting. Much like Trump saying blatantly racist things is NOT “just telling it like it is.” (and no I’m not comparing you or larps to trump or calling anyone racist. except trump)

Many of the women who have ‘spoken up’ about larps on tungle, I’ve seen on other mediums (fb, wordpress) and they’re often just blatantly manipulative

Really? Am I being blatantly manipulative? Or insane? And, to reiterate, is what I’ve said on her post enough for her to assume that I - and anyone else raising these issues with her - ALL have personality disorders? Is it justification for her to say that I’m “glorifying” ASPD/BPD?

and will never have any insight to the fact that all of this is really a non-issue

I gave you several examples above, and here's your treasure trove:

https://larpsandtherealgirl.tumblr.com/search/cluster%20b

Notice how she loves agreeing with everyone saying they’ve been abused by someone with a cluster b disorder, or otherwise says something negative about a person/people with a cluster b disorder, makes sweeping generalizations and basically uses “cluster b” with the same tone that you would call someone an asshole - that is to say, using the same logical standards of “you said some shit I thought was rude, so I think you’re an asshole & I’m going to call you one” when talking about psychological medical diagnoses?

Yeah, occasionally she claims she’s only talking about The Bad Ones, but that’s a pretty thin excuse when 99% of the time you make no attempt to differentiate, and post things like screenshotted symptoms (which - if the “good ones” with that disorder actually have that disorder - would apply to the “good ones” too) with captions like “these people are insane.”

Again, I realize you see the things she says very differently from me, but surely you can see where I’m coming from. And I would hope that you can see that my having this perspective does not justify saying I have a personality disorder, that I am insane, or that I am “glorifying” ASPD and NPD. I would hope that the similar shit she’s said about several other women who said things similar to what I said would also strike you as unjustified. You can make excuses that she wasn’t literally diagnosing me with a personality disorder, but you can’t make that excuse every single time she says something like this.

but instead “leave radical feminism because it’s so full of mean lesbian separatists” and make huge texts about it everywhere else and how rfeminism is a cult.

Okay... this is an entirely separate and irrelevant subject and I’m not sure why you’re bringing it up. I mean it sounds like you’re saying “people who don’t like being told they’re insane are just butthurt kek” which I really hope is not what you’re saying. I’m pretty sure there are plenty of radical women who would object to being called insane and having their opinions dismissed because of a mental health diagnosis, who would raise their objections and still believe in their politics, probably due to the fact that - in this context - those things have virtually nothing to do with one another.

My point is- she’s not just saying ppl who criticize her have bpd- they often do because people with personality disorders come out of the woodwork to be hideously angry at anyone who calls them abusive or “wrong” and “bad” (whatever that means at any given moment).

In summary: I appreciate and respect that you interpret the things larps says in a very different way, and I’m not trying to tell you that you should be hurt or anything like that. But I can’t accept what I see as excuses that you’re making for her, since she doesn’t offer any of those explanations herself, and I don’t see any evidence of the intentions you’re attributing to her, in her own words or behavior.

At the end of the day, larps is the only person who can speak for larps’ intentions (much like the people whose criticisms larps deflects by claiming they’re motivated by irrational emotion and a threatened victim complex SHOULD be the only ones who can speak for their intentions).

And at the end of the day, larps didn’t show anything but disrespect and a total unwillingness to even consider that the way she speaks to, and treats, people with bpd and people who criticize her portrayal and internet-diagnosing of bpd, might not be 100% faultless.

At the end of the day, larps read what I had to say about her dismissive attitude and manipulative, circular justification for avoiding accountability. Her response was to double down on calling people with borderline “insane,” and double down on her own belief that googling a list of symptoms makes her an expert on psychology, as well as an expert on the thoughts in other peoples’ heads. She used the exact circular, dismissive excuse I was calling out, yet again said that the people criticizing her were all doing so because of their - well “our,” I should say, since she diagnosed me - personality disorders, rather than their actual thoughts, opinions, and perfectly reasonable objections. And then she answered a bunch of messages laughing about how crazy and terrible “cluster b”s are. No, she didn’t literally say “EVERY SINGLE PERSON with bpd is like this,” but come on. She’s not the only person who can recognize patterns of behavior.

[super-rainbows]

tnrbevwcwqa

Ethan: I should go to bed soon, right?

Rainbow: yeah. sleep at midnight, maybe. and if we could read Neverworld that would be good, but if not it’s okay, don’t worry.

Ethan: I think it’s hypocritical for them to act like they care now when so many people made it perfectly clear that they didn’t care and it didn’t matter in the slightest.

Rainbow: these are different people.

Ethan: I don’t care! It’s inconsistent and hypocritical! They have no right to just completely change their minds like that! Either it matters or it doesn’t, and we already know it doesn’t! Either I’m worth caring about or I’m not, and we already know a billion times over that I’m not! They can’t just change everything like that! I want to yell at everyone for being better and more important than me. But then I’ll deserve to die.

Rainbow: ... I could do it for you-

Jamie: No.

Ethan: ... Can I yell?

Jamie: Go for it.

Ethan: THEY DON’T MATTER MORE THAN ME! IT’S UNFAIR AND HYPOCRITICAL TO SAY WE CAN’T YELL AT PEOPLE! THEY’RE ALLOWED YELL AT ME IF THEY WANT TO! THEY’RE ALLOWED HAVE FEELINGS AND SAY TRUE THINGS AND BE RIGHT, AND I’M NOT! HOW THE FUCK IS THAT FAIR? ALL WE’D BE DOING IS MAKING IT SLIGHTLY MORE EVEN!

Jamie: Morals.

Ethan: Why do they get morals and not me? What the fuck did they do to deserve to be valid and treated well? I bet they aren’t even trying at all! I have to be better than someone, right? Anyone at all? Why do I deserve to be hurt and treated badly and ignored when NOBODY FUCKING ELSE EVER DOES?

Jamie: I’m sorry, niceness. I’m so sorry (sympathy). You can get mad at me if you want, but I’m sticking with this. I forbid either of you to lash out at people.

Rainbow: oh, so that’s your function

Jamie: lol. Maybe, idk.

Rainbow: you really are the��“perfect miracle child” :P

Jamie: :P Anyway @.Ethan: It’s okay to be mad. It’s understandable. I get why you want to yell at people. It is unfair that they seem valid and you feel invalid, and that you’ve been hurt and they haven’t, and/or that they were taken seriously and you weren’t. You don’t deserve any of that. You’re just not allowed yell at people.

Ethan: What am I allowed do?

Jamie: What do you want to do?

Ethan: I don’t know.

Jamie: You can write or draw or read stuff or play stuff, or we could watch one or two episodes of Digimon or something.

Ethan: Sorry for taking so long with that. I should probably- I can do that tomorrow, actually. Study gaidhlig. I’m gonna check when and where the gaéilí is supposed to be, since the different emails said completely different things.

Jamie: lol.

Rainbow: oh, btw, thank you both for always standing up for me. I really really appreciate it. <3 __________________.

Jamie: We know.

Rainbow: good :P

Ethan: Oh yeah, isn’t it ironic that I went to cluain mhuire for help with my codeine problem, but instead they were just like “congratulations, you have bpd. if you want help with that, you have to come off codeine yourself. good luck”.

Rainbow: lol. yeah. I mean, it’s not quite like that exactly, but yeah.

Ethan: Still, though. The main point is is that I’m basically back where I started. I went in a big circle and picked up a diagnosis that I don’t really want because I don’t really want to be hated by everyone and never taken seriously.

Rainbow: *high fives* lol. I mean, at least we can be semi-universally hated together?

Ethan: I’d rather not have “this person is a liar, ignore everything they say” on my file.

Rainbow: it might not go like that.

Ethan: It’s BPD, why wouldn’t it? You know how stigmatised of a diagnosis it is. I know NPD and ASPD have it worse, but BPD is up there.

Rainbow: yeah, I know. well, the other people don’t know you have bpd. maybe they’ll help you.

Ethan: I hope so. Anyway, on the bright side, if nobody ever takes me seriously then I can just die. 

Rainbow: ... don’t say that

Ethan: Sorry. 

Rainbow: I know what you meant, but I don’t like hearing you talk about dying.

Ethan: Sorry.

Rainbow: it’s okay, dw.

Ethan: But anyway yeah, it’s hypocritical for the people in cluain mhuire to pretend that they consider me worth caring about. Because it’s been well established that I’m not worth caring about, and they know that, so they’re not fooling anyone and there’s no point pretending. And I don’t know how or why I’m meant to get off codeine.

Rainbow: yeah, they kinda did just leave you back where you started. lol. hopefully the insight matters people will help more, since they’re meant to be trained in addiction and mental illness? as opposed to just being like, “okay, stop taking it now”? lol.

Ethan: Does she just not believe me that the DROP person wasn’t helpful and didn’t believe in mental illness? 

Rainbow: idk. but if insight matters fails, you can always try the other free addiction place.

Ethan: I don’t see the point. They’ll just be like “stop taking it” when it’s not that easy, and presumably also won’t believe me or listen to me, so what’s the point? Why don’t I just never stop taking it and then just never bother with DBT? I’m doing fine right now and I don’t need to crash and burn.

Rainbow: “fine” may be a slight exaggeration.

Ethan: Imagine how much more fucked up I’d be with my main coping mechanism gone.

Rainbow: @.%

Ethan: Yeah, but that’s not as good. It’s a good thing that nobody believes that I could possibly have any kind of @.% problem, since if they did then they might try to stop me doing that, too. I need something to rely on. “Do you ever @.%?” Like really, fuck off. Do I look like I do? And once again, when so many people have just fucking refused to even try to pretend to care in the slightest, she has no right to act like she’s pretending it matters now.

Rainbow: to be fair, you can’t tell that one with appearance.

Ethan: Yeah, I guess. That’s not the point. I don’t even see why I’m bothering to be honest. It’s easier to just not tell them in the first place than tell them and not be believed or taken seriously. But I guess lying is kinda effort, too. Anyway, I should go to bed. Sorry for yelling so much.

Jamie: It’s okay, I understand. It makes sense for you to be upset. The things you are/were upset about are bad and unfair. I am sorry. *hugs*

Rainbow: sleep well. you seem more like yourself right now. it might be the communication method, or idk. goodnight of doom.

[thetigerisariver]

God, I hope psychiatry implodes on itself soon and something less dumb rises in it's place and some of these *disorders* will claim their rightful place among *possessed by ghosts* *travelling uterus* and *just a raging asshole, tbh*

like this *disorder* you are throwing around is pretty much 100% diagnosed by behavior, defined by behavior

are you sure that is the way to do science in the 21st century