#willel is very very very very very very important to me

[chirpsythismorning]

I am not sure how to respond to your answer because a lot of the things you have said were kinda... irrelevant?

My main point was that I think there's more stuff to be addressed with Will's character. That is why I think he's going to be targeted first. I never said he'd be the sole main character of S5. I just think there's more stuff that is to be addressed with his character. Especially because we do not know a lot of mysteries about him. We still do not know why he got targeted in S1, his S1 and S2 supernatural stuff have yet to be addressed. We do not know if he has powers or not and if that's the reason why he got targeted. We do not know why he is connected to Vecna and that has to be addressed. We do not know why the Upside Down is stuck on the time he went missing. His parallels to Vecna are not addressed and if that plays a role in him being targeted back in S1 are not yet addressed. We do not know why Will is connected to UD and how to break off his connection to Vecna and UD, etc.

I've never even said that Noah would receive more cash or would have his name appear as the first name on the show. I do not even have any idea where that came from. I am just pointing out that there are more stuff to be addressed with Will's character, thus why it makes sense for him to get targeted first to address those questions and plot points. That's my main point... I have no idea what to answer to your other points because a lot of things you said were irrelevant. Thanks for the answer anyway!

I'm sorry if I rambled! I got the impression that you thought because Will was said to be central in s5 by the Duffer's, then that means he automatically is at the center related to the overall story, and I sort of attributed that to Vecna as well. And so I felt the need to get logistical and let you down easy bc I notice there are a lot of bylers taking that Duffer snippet and are using it to like blast milkvans and say Will is the main now and El isn't anymore, which... just isn't the case. And this is coming from a will has powers and byler endgame truther. If that's not you at all then I apologize for making that assumption and will drop that whole side of the argument entirely!

As I replied to another ask just previous, I do think that if Mike is targeted, the endgame goal would be for it to somehow be a step in the right direction for Vecna to get to Will.

I think s5 is going to involve Will at the forefront when it comes to a lot of these questions being answered related to him going missing. And I do think, assuming that the whole Mike being late thing was intentional, it's very likely the opening for s5 could again somehow involve Mike being late yet again. Seeing that trend come full circle in a way that is shocking and satisfying. It just so happens that Vecna is the big bad this time around, and Mike is long overdue for some self-reflection, and so I was speculating with a few others about that possibility, because it's there.

S5 has like 10 hours of running time to account for. And Will confronting Vecna is probably going to take up a good chunk of it. And even still, as Vecna has done in past seasons, he's going to continue to be calculated.

S5 is likely not going to start with Will and Vecna simply facing off with all their cards on the table, because that would be too easy? And a little boring?

It could very likely happen where we see Vecna target Will right from the jump at the start of s5, but it's also more likely something would go wrong, leading to a delay of sorts. And I think it's going to lead to another confrontation later on, followed by several others until the final battle. But there is definitely more to it than just Vecna targeting Will, because after all that is presumably the end goal. And so it's a matter of what it takes to get to that point.

And I think just like in previous seasons, Vecna is going to use all of his moves possible if it means getting what he wants, and as far as we know, he likes tormenting people over their guilt and shame, often what he himself played a role in causing them in the first place. And he's done it with the most random of characters, even if it seemed insignificant at the time, it played it's part in his plan.

Tormenting the love of Will's life, who also happens to be the kid who has been thwarting his plans for a while now, seems like enough to at least not rule out Vecna targeting Mike, for calculated reasons.

I'm honestly not even as obsessed with the prospects of Vecna vs. Mike as I used to be post-s4. Like it was just such a concept back then bc there was so much unknown about Mike. I do think it's going to happen in s5, though I'm not as excited about it as I probably was back then, I think I'm more so just defensive at the argument that it's super unlikely and people are reaching for speculating, bc all any of us are doing is speculating based on what's been shown to us. For all we know we're all wrong.

But now with the whole twelvegate theory and Will has powers in general being a commonplace fan theory on here, I've come across so many unknowns about Will after rewatching over the last month doing my own research, and that has honestly been interesting me more than anything else as of late. It's even gotten to the point now where a lot of byler evidence appears to also be either/or willel wonder twin evidence... and so I am very excited to see how that could pan out!

Though this has also made me realize that 4 seasons of building up Will's sexuality out in the open, and with him being swamped with powers obligations next season, even more so confirms this concept of Mike being vecna'd bc... what else does he have going on? His best friend and ex gf are busy dealing with family drama, he's gonna need to get his own head together bc that doesn't really have anything to do with him. His arc is more so connected to his guilt and shame and him resolving that is going to be necessary for both Will and El to feel secure in their relationship with him in the end. I do think they all deserve that closure. Will and El will definitely get closure with one another, but I know that Will is going to be the hardest nut to crack. He is NOT going to believe Mike, unless it's clear to him what Mike has went through and is currently going through, and vice versa.

All of their arcs overlap, though I know everyone has favorites and yes some actors are billed more than others like i rambled about, but all the pieces matter in the grand scheme of things, even if it doesn't directly impact the endgame goal in the moment, otherwise there would be no story to sit here and obsess over until we get to the end.

I hope that cleared up some of my nonsense and hopefully I made a little more sense this time! Thanks for coming back to clarify!

[pinkeoni]

WillEl Narrative Mirroring: Presenting Themes of Sexuality

If we consider powers as a means to present themes of sexuality, then looking at Will & El and how they mirror each other in narrative can reveal different angles on this topic and how the two sides of the coin come together to create a balanced whole.

Very very lengthy discussion of sex, sexuality, sexual assault, and child sexual abuse below the cut.

Will and El being different genders is important to their narrative mirroring, because they are displaying the difference between expectations in regards to male and female sexuality. Let's start with El and what her story says about female sexuality.

Layering the subtext behind supernatural elements is both practical and ethical, and I honestly applaud the Duffs for choosing to go this route rather than making it more explicit from the start, and instead sewing in details along the way. It helps keep the story digestible, allowing for a story like this to be shared to a wider audience while also not forcing their incredibly young actors to portray potentially very traumatizing circumstances.

I'm not the first nor will I be the last person to talk about all of the csa coding regarding El, Brenner, and the lab, especially here on tumblr. I was actually sent an anon awhile back linking a blog post back from 2016 that analyzed this exact thing.

"Eleven's interactions with 'Papa' are laden with coercive, coded language, intentionally leading viewers to make sexual abuse connections beneath the surface of the experiments we are shown. Eleven, vulnerable in a thin hospital gown, is told to "go deeper" and to ignore the men watching her perform. She is told the monster wants her, to go farther, "not to turn away from it." This language is intentionally loaded."

Girls are often forced into their sexuality at a young age, usually for the gratification of men

Young El, in hardly a hospital gown, is being forced to utilize her powers for the sake of Papa Brenner and other men in the lab. The sexuality/power connection is being established very early on.

And even once El has escaped the clutches of the lab and seems to find safety—

And before I have fingers pointed at me, no I am not trying to vilify Mike for this moment nor any of the boys for wanting to use El's powers to find Will. It's more complicated than that. The boys were young, their friend was missing and in danger, and they were excited by the prospect of a real life superhero being able to save their friend. I'll also get into how Mike is a victim of this forced heteronormative relationship much later in the post.

But still, even without meaning to, the boys are reinforcing the role that El is expected to fulfill, which is to use her powers and sexuality in service to the men in her life

Something impressive about that blogpost I linked earlier is the rightful calling out of how gross miIeven is way back in 2016, when the two were considered America's cutest couple by the general public.

"Crucially, in the climax, after Eleven's body is once again used for others, Mike promises her a home, and Eleven shows a glimpse of light, is almost comforted. She'll have a family, she'll have safety. Promise? No, Mike says. She'll have their mother, but while she's wearing his sister's dress he explains she won't be a sister, that he wants Eleven to meet his desire for a girlfriend. How could he possibly understand that more boundaries and a boyfriend is the opposite of what she needs?"

Girls oftentimes do not see many options outside of their sexuality

Starting in season 2 El has two modes of thinking: girlfriend or superhero. Her line of thinking isn't helped much by Hopper, who keeps her isolated from outside world. And like the boys, this is a complicated situation. Hopper is keeping El inside for the sake of her safety, lest the government catch her and lock her up again, and either use her or kill her. Still, this isn't good for her personal development.

Whereas Brenner was the sexually abusive dad who forced his daughter into adult roles at a young age, Hopper is playing the role of the overprotective dad who doesn't want to see his little girl grow up, something that continues in season 3. In his eyes, he is keeping El protected from the men of the outside world who are likely to want to take advantage of her, and keeping her locked in is his way of preventing that. But doing so is damaging to El's psyche in ways he may not realize.

So El is kept locked inside with some of her few windows to the outside world being spying on the boy who wanted her to be his girlfriend, and spending the entire day on the couch watching romantic soaps. Her options regarding freedom are skewed.

When El gets her first taste of freedom and leaves the cabin, she's in girlfriend mode. We know this when we see her go to Mike and she misreads and becomes jealous of his interaction with Max. Now I won't deny that El and Mike do have genuine care for each other, but here she ditches a boy that she hasn't seen in almost a year because he seems to have found another girl to fill that girlfriend role.

Having been hung up on in the void and replaced, El changes trajectory: superhero.

I do want to point out and emphasize the importance of El going to see Terry before this moment. El is not a robot that is programmed for sex and powers. She is very much human, and we see her desires for family and the life she could have lived, which is her motivation to seek both Mama and Kali.

Kali, another woman with powers who had been mistreated like her, offers El an alternative— use her powers against the men that have hurt her. When El sees that Kali is seeking her power as a means to use them, El leaves to save her friends and family.

I once again want to reiterate again El's humanity and her heart. El isn't returning to Hawkins simply as a means to become Mike's girlfriend and to become a superhero. She is doing so because she wants to save the people that she loves. Still, El's resolve for the season isn't super ideal given her overall arc. She is effectively fulfilling the roles that have been charted for her since the beginning. She learns that she can be a superhero and a girlfriend! Yay!

With danger out of sight, El seems to be spending her time doing the only other thing she thinks she can do, kissing Mike in her room. An activity which is described by Hopper and the rest of the party as being "unhealthy" and "bullshit."

So what is the solution? Completely remove her sexuality as Hopper aims to do?

We now come to my favorite friendship in the whole show, as well as the most important character in El's arc—

Max doesn't suppress El's sexuality or enforce it onto her, but rather is the first person who allows El to explore what she wants, offering her assistance but allowing El to lead the way. Brenner, Kali, Hopper, and Mike have all wanted to shape El into what they wanted her to be. For Brenner, a weapon. Kali, an avenger. Hopper, the perfect daughter. Mike, the perfect girlfriend. Max wants El to be whatever El wants to be. (God I love the elmax friendship so much)

Like I said before, Max does not aim to strip away El's sexuality like Hopper does. Hell, I wouldn't even say that she wanted to keep El from Mike. Hell, Max was even asking El if Mike was a good kisser after El had dumped him. Max is the one who offers to give El her moms Cosmo magazines. She isn't keeping El in the dark about sex and sexuality, but offering her a road map and actual information in order for El to come to her own conclusion about what she wants from it. El can look at pictures of Ralph Macchio and use her powers to spy but also enjoy shopping, listening to Madonna and reading comics.

When El is pushing her powers to find Billy, something that El choses to do of her own volition, it's the girls in her life (Nancy and Max) who advocate for her to lead the way while Mike is the one who wants to control her. And yes, once again the situation is complicated, Mike isn't doing this to be an asshole but out of concern for her safety, but needless to say he isn't beating the controlling boyfriend allegations. And this displays another facet of female sexuality—

Men often feel insecure when women exhibit ownership over their sexuality

Mike, who previously advocated for El to use her powers if it meant helping someone, is now actively pushing against it when it's El in the driver's seat and not him. And maybe Mike was right and El was pushing herself too far. And maybe he was concerned out of guilt for pushing her the first time, but would it also be too out of left field to say that Mike equates his part of his self worth on how much El needs him?

So maybe now I’ll talk about Mike

Mike really isn’t trying to be this malicious, manipulative guy who is using El for sex. Really, he’s not. Mike instead is a young boy who is going through some rather tough internal struggles of his own, and unfortunately brings El into it with him.

Mike is enforcing the heteronormative relationship onto himself just as much as he is doing it to El

I personally read Mike as gay and that plays into this analysis. Mike found a girl that he cared a lot for and everyone around him assumed that he must have feelings for her, so he played the role of the straight boyfriend. When I see Mike making out with El in her bedroom, I see a gay boy constantly trying to become attracted to his own girlfriend. Maybe if he keeps kissing her, maybe it’ll do something for him.

Keep in mind that Mike believes that that’s what El wants him to be, he’s not forcing onto her something that he doesn’t think she doesn’t want. He may have kissed her first, but then El was the one who tried to kissed him at the Byers house. Mike is mistaking El’s own confused feelings for genuine ones.

Being El’s boyfriend was Mike’s way of giving El what she needed, a way to be useful while simultaneously giving him a way to be normal. But what happens when his true feelings are starting to become harder to ignore?

Remember that Mike wasn’t writing “Love, Mike” when he believed that El was doing okay on her own in Lenora and making new friends. It almost makes me wonder if Mike would have said “I love you” to El if she had told Mike she was in distress.

But then again, we do see El in distress in front of Mike and yet Mike still can’t bring himself to say it. It isn’t until El is quite literally on her deathbed that Mike finally works up the courage.

In season four we have El regressing into her superhero or girlfriend mindset, with a third option added— monster.

A pinkeoni analysis that mentions El’s superhero/monster dichotomy???? SHOCKER!!

When girls are not seen as sexually desirable, they oftentimes feel monstrous as a result

El doesn’t have her powers anymore, and Mike no longer sees her as worthy of being a girlfriend, which means that she must a monster. This is a thought that is reaffirmed through El’s treatment from her classmates, and later El’s intrusive memories regarding the massacre. The only way El knows to escape this monster label is to regain her powers using NINA. This is what El knows, how to become a superhero. This is how she becomes desirable again.

I think that Max’s distance from El is a good contributing factor. Not the only one, but a main one for sure. El no longer has that guiding force, and there isn’t a girl in Lenora that understands her disposition and seems willing to take her under her wing. Sure she has her new mom Joyce, who is usually on the phone. Or her new brother Jonathan, who is usually stoned. And her new brother Will, whom we see try an give El support only for her to shut him down with “friends don’t lie.”

So El goes through NINA, gets her powers back, learns she isn’t the monster after all, oh and her boyfriend can say “I love you” now. And yet, as El realizes at the end, it’s not enough.

I promise this post is also about Will too

Now is the part of the post where we shift gears and finally talk about Will. El has more screen time than him, so there’s more to cover. I also felt like discussing her first laid some important groundwork in regards to how Will mirrors her narrative.

El showcased a lot of facets regarding female sexuality. Will covers aspects of male sexuality, but specifically gay male sexuality, which is an important distinction.

What does Hawkins feel about gay men?

Yeah, it’s not looking good.

Gay men are oftentimes perceived as predatory and dangerous

Will’s sexuality is practically an open secret. Will goes missing, and the town’s first thought is that he was taken by another gay man. Troy doesn’t say it directly, but the implication behind his words is that Will was raped and then killed, thus feeling the need to clarify that the man behind it was “another queer.” Gay men rape little boys and throw them into quarries, or so the town thinks.

The eighties is also such an important set piece for this narrative because the entire show takes place right in the midst of the Reagan Administration and the AIDS epidemic. A young gay boy dies and its suspected that another gay man killed him. The government is eager to sweep under the rug what actually did it. The anniversary of Will's kidnapping is Reagan's 1984 reelection date to the day.

Heterosexual men are treated differently on the basis of their sexuality

Well, duh. But I did want to highlight the differences between gay Will and his evil-straight-name-twin, Billy.

Billy wears his sexuality proud and openly. Based on Max's dialogue in season 3 we know that he has sex with girls often. In his introduction we are immediately shown girls ogling him. He arrives in town and is instantly liked and regarded. He catches the eyes of the hot moms in town and he's liked by the other guys.

Oh, and he's racist, violent, abusive, and overall a total sack of shit.

We see Billy's sudden rise to popularity in the same season that we see Will's incessant bullying and him being branded "Zombie Boy" by what seems to be the entire town. Even Billy who's been in town for like a day is already calling him "the freak." Will is sweet, kind, friendly, wouldn't hurt a fly, but he's the weird homo whereas Billy is the cool straight guy with the nice butt.

Gay men's sexualities are often suppressed

So now we get to the part that exhibits the WillEl mirroring, as well as some “Will has powers” theoretics. I guess your willingness as a reader to continue forward may depend on your feelings toward Will with powers. I may lose some of you, or maybe I may even swing some skeptics with my explanation. As I say in most of my posts: bare with me.

If El's sexuality and powers are being forced upon her, then Will's sexuality and powers are being forcefully snuffed out.

Let's take a look at Lonnie Byers, in many ways similar to Papa Brenner and in many ways his antithesis. Both abusive fathers with silver hair, Brenner is the obsessive parent who wants his fingers all over his daughter while Lonnie is the distant parent who wants nothing to do with his gay son. Joyce's dialogue "Lonnie said he was queer. Called him a fag." indicates that his homophobia probably has something to do with his distancing. Lonnie's verbal abuse of Will was likely a method of trying to snuff out his queerness. And when that didn't work, he left.

(and if you wanna get theoretical you could say that he had connections to the lab, knew about Will's powers and was trying to get rid of them, but that's just speculative)

A big part of season one is the fact that the entire time, Will was in his own house. He was spending his time running and hiding from the monster that was in his own home, the one that wanted to kill him. And the only time he ever expressed himself, the only time he ever used his powers—

—was when his loving and supportive mother encouraged him.

But also keep in mind that almost every time Will tries to speak with his mother through the lights, express more of himself and use more of his powers, it usually attracts the presence of the monster. Will continues his cycle of running and hiding until it doesn't work anymore, and we get what is perhaps the most overt sexual assault imagery in the show that even little fifteen year old Robin Pinkeoni picked up on in 2016.

Season one ends with Will experiencing sexual violence, and in season two we see how this trauma is encroaching on his everyday life, as well as being stalked by the same man that took him and shoved a vine down his throat for the sake of reproduction. He follows Will to the arcade. He follows him while he's trick-or-treating with friends. He finds Will at home. Eventually, he finds Will after hours at school where he's able to reenter his body in the second most overt sexual assault imagery in the show.

Where El's sexuality was suppressed in season 2, Will's sexuality was being forced upon

Will is feeling the effects of this assault for the rest of the season. He's finding it hard to sleep, and constantly feels the presence of the man who attacked him, everywhere.

Vecna is possessing Will because he wants to use him as a vessel to control help control his army, and for whatever other powers Will may have. If El never closed the gate, if Vecna had completely taken over Will's body as he originally planned, what would he have done from that point on? Would he have just discarded Will's body, or was there something special about him that he needed?

Will begins to believe that everything people say about gay men is true about him

Keep in mind that at this point Will's only experience and exposure to gay sex is being assaulted twice, all while his father and the whole town is bullying him and telling him that gay men are predators. Will isn't a predator. He isn't dangerous and we know this about him. And yet Will uses the freak label in a negative way.

So it's no surprise given the internal and external that Will is suppressing his sexuality even further.

In season 3 El begins her journey of self-discovery and likes what she finds. Will knows exactly who he is

and he hates it.

Will fucking hates himself bro. He knows he gay. And he accepts it. But he also accepts all of the labels and restrictions that it comes with. I am gay. My sexual desires are dangerous. I can never express and experience love and sex the way I want to.

And maybe there is a glimmer inside of him that sees that what he is is a wonderful thing, that maybe he does deserve better than all the abuse he's endured just for being who was.

And maybe these feelings were easier to pack away when he was younger. Maybe it was easier to say "I'm not gonna fall in love" when you're fourteen, but as you get older and grow into your teenage years...

...maybe your desires are getting harder to ignore.

What happens when you don't die innocent, and you grow up instead?

So we bring it around to season 5

El is a superhero and a girlfriend again. But it's not enough. Something is missing and she isn't fulfilled. Max is missing, and El is going to have to face and overcome her biggest challenge yet, which is completing her journey of self-discovery that started in season 3. She's going to have to put aside the expectations that many have for her and decide what she wants.

Will Byers is back in town. How has the climate surrounding gay men changed since then?

Oh! It's worse now!

Remember, the town believes that the same sodomizing Satanists are the ones behind the recent murders and earthquake. It's gonna be really bad for Will when he gets back.

So now Will is tasked with a challenge that is harder here in Hawkins than it might have been in Southern California. Maybe Will can't change the minds of these religious townsfolk but maybe he can somehow find a way to shift his own way of thinking. Embrace who he is, embrace his powers, and realize that he deserves more than the hand he's been dealt.

So that was... a lot

Analysis mostly over. Here are some of my concluding thoughts.

I know that this is probably one of my longest posts ever. I know that a lot of it feels like reiterating plot points, but that really felt like the best way for me to articulate all of my thoughts on this. A lot of it needs to be backed up with evidence from the show.

Also, sometimes when I sit down to make a new analysis, sometimes I don't make it because I think I have all of the answers, but I make it as a way to try and find answers. To talk through some of my long and complicated thoughts and open the floor to discussion. Even with the length of this post, there is waaaaaaaaay more that can be discussed regarding this topic (some that has already been discussed).

To wrap everything up, I wanna share this screenshot from Reddit, which low-key inspired this entire thing. For context, this was in response to a question asking if people expected to see a Will coming-out scene in season 5.

So, hopefully with this long ass post, I've proven that maybe the show is about the complex effects of one's sexuality in the 80's, actually.

[despapillon]

When it comes to awareness, I do think that the s3 finale Melvin kiss led to Mike’s realization. I think throughout all of s4 he was aware of his lack of attraction towards El and during the monologue he wasn’t confused about his feelings for her and just simply lied aware of it all. Mike is sort of stuck, he is scared of losing El and probably many other things, so he stays with her and tries to be a good boyfriend while trying to not lie to her too much. But it’s clear he is doing the bare minimum and wants out deep down.

To me I just think they are focusing each season on him figuring out more and more and not just doing repeats or whatever.

S1 - Mike spends time with El away from Will and the relationship develops

S2 - Mike spends time with Will away from El and the relationship develops

S3 - Mike is with El and at the end has his realization he doesn’t like her the way he should

His behavior doesn’t point to him being unaware and that carrying over into S5 I mean come on.

It’s only fitting to me S4 is Mike, struggling with his knowledge, and that it is a repeat of S3 but with Willel swapped, where he has a realization regarding Will this time. And yeah I don’t view Mike as totally clueless about his feelings for Will, just in denial and repression

In my opinion just like El saying ily and kissing him led him to find out he doesn’t love her, I feel the van scene did that in regards to Will. I yet have no idea exactly what, but I know he realized *something* important there, and I suspect that is that he loves Will. I’m not saying he immediately was sure of it that instant but he probably wasn’t purely admiring the painting when Will turned around, just looking at it and trying to sort out how all things Will said made him feel. Mike didn’t notice Will crying right next to him because he was busy thinking, his head was too full. He glances at Will at one point but that doesn’t change the fact he must be zoned out. I’m still unsure if Mike clocked something was off with Will or he was too focused on his gay panic. Literally Vecna’s thoughts are easier for me to figure out than S3-4 Mike’s. Give us his POV ffs.

S5 is going to be Mike now knowing all the basics, the culmination, and having to deal with that, deal with his lie, Will’s lie. He has to choose either live a lie or be honest with himself and be with the person he loves. Mike needs to know he is not just a random nerd, he’s more than that. Will needs to know he has to stop being so self-sacrificing because it has the capacity to hurt not only himself but the very people he wants to help by sacrificing himself and that he needs to do something for himself for once, quit being a doormat as rude as that sounds.

[tapochekrina]

Willel will end Vecna together and here is why

That's not an actually legit and worked out theory, but it's still cool, so hear me out

I'm pretty sure someone's already talked about it, but we've seen how the result of the very first dnd campaign in the show predicted Will being caught by the demogorgon.

Then, in the end of the season he actually defeated it with a fireball, and even though Will didn't do it himself, but they exorcised Mind Flayer from Will with the heat and closed the gate at the same moment, which still fits, at least partially.

After that in the dnd campaign in the third season Mike and Lucas don't really want to play, so they finish the campaign with self-sacrifice and in the end of the season, Billy's and Hopper's (though he survived) sacrifice is crucial for defeating Mind Flayer again.

And here I'm not really sure which interpretation is more relevant, because the campaign Hellfire has at the beginning of s4 can partially be related to the end of this season, since they had to make some sacrifices (in the dnd, everyone before Erica's last turn have already lost), but had their victory in the finale while attacking from the different places (paralleling how campaign was shown together with the basketball game and those were both won). However, they didn't actually kill Vecna, we know that he survived and his plan seems to be working.

So I think that the s4 finale may be also paralleld to the s3 dnd campaign (we still had two sacrifices: Eddie and partially Max) or at last part of Eddie's campaign that was before and we didn't see (though I don't like this one much bc you can't parallel what you don't show). And then the ending of Eddie's campaign predicts possible ending of the season 5. It fits, bc in the original campaign they've already met Vecna and are surprised that he survived, just as he survived in the s4. Based on that, we can predict a lot of deaths and/or injuries that make characters immobile, leaving everything to the last few, who can fight (that much we could predict, we almost certainly know, that someone will die). And the fact that dnd and basketball game were shown simultaneously is what interested me the most. It's a beautiful scene that shows Sinclair siblings slaying and winning at the last moment. What siblings do we know, who will play a huge role in the s5???? WILLEL WONDER TWINS!!! I personally don't believe in Will has powers theory, but I do believe that he will be extremely important for ending Vecna and just imagine how cool it will be, if Will and El, with whom the show started, will defeat the final boss together, saving the world and showcasing power twins aura

I'm praying for this to be true and not just my delusion🙏🙏🙏🙏

[henrysglock]

What is it with the Duffers and Numbers

Because I'm me and I can't rest until I've parsed out number shit with dates in Stranger Things...I decided to use OEIS to see if there was an kind of pattern in important dates. Our important dates being: 1959 -- Creel Murders 1971 -- Willel Birth Year 1979 -- HNL Massacre 1983 -- Mothergate 1985 -- Keygate 1986 -- The Rifts

From here, I decided to find duration differences between events. March 1959 -> (?) 1971 = 12 ≤ x ≤ 13 years (?) 1971 -> Sept. 1979 = 8 ≤ x ≤ 9 years Sept. 1979 -> Nov. 1983 = 4 < x < 5 years Nov. 1983 -> July 1985 = 1 < x < 2 years July 1985 -> March 1986 = 0 < x < 1 year

This is where OEIS came in handy.

If we round down, we get 0, 1, 4, 8, 12.

This sequence includes all relevant ages for El and the Creels:

Henry and Alice are 12 and 15 respectively when the Creel murders happen. Henry's Virginia is 36. Henry's Victor is 40.

Edward and Virginia, are also presumably 12 and 15 when their Creel murders happen. Edward's Victor is listed as being 35. Edward's Alice has no age listed.

Born in 1947, Henward were 24 when El was born.

El and Henward are 8 and 32 respectively when the first gate opens.

El and Henward are 12 and 36 respectively when Mothergate opens.

El is 15 or close to it when Vecward, now 39, opens the Rifts.

The Mindflayer, while not being a gate-opening event, occurred in '84, which also appears in the sequence.

That's really freaky on its own.

However, If we round up, we get: 1, 2, 5, 9, 13. This sequence is known as the Euler Path:

What makes this so interesting is a) it's a well known pattern (if you're a math nerd you've heard of it before. Suzie would absolutely know this pattern), and b) it has Implications™

Essentially, the Euler Path/Circuit is the longest single, non-overlapping path between two points.

Being a biology nerd myself, my favorite Stranger Things science connection is this:

The Eulerian path is routinely used, nowadays, to reconstruct genomic sequences for ancestry tracking/taxonomic tracking. It's essentially a highly-accurate, DNA-based version of what Dustin did with D'art in ST2. It's an algorithmic puzzle-solving strategy.

The most relevant connection is actually tied to the definition of a Eulerian Path/Cycle, and that is:

Timelines, The Missing Creel Door, the 5-Room Puzzle.

As we've seen in Em's post here, the very structure of the Creel house changes in the show:

A founding puzzle related to the Euler Paths theory is the 5-Room Puzzle.

Now, our house has six rooms, including the foyer/hallways, which makes it slightly different from the 5-Room Puzzle. I was able to find a variety of solutions to each, and there was one pattern that emerged:

They're almost the same, but based on the odd-evenness of the door assignments...they're distinctly different. Each path variation in Edward's house begins in the chess room. Each path variation in Henry's house begins in Victor's study. Both end in this odd, unseen console/kitchen area.

They start differently, separated by a wall. Edward's house has the doorway between those starting rooms, Henry's does not. It doesn't matter. They both end up in the same room.

I'm working on finalizing a look at the loops and cycles version of these paths, and I'm fairly sure there's a pattern in there too, but I have to nail down a couple of other details before I go posting them.

[erikiara80]

Thinking about the chess scene. This is when Henry tells El that it’s time she’s free from that hell. Ok, later he says that he called the lab a prison... Except he didn’t, but that’s material for another analysis.

What I find interesting here is that Twelve is at the other table. Also, Willel yellow-red color theory, my beloved. In almost every scene with El or Henry, we see Twelve and the yellow and red. I love it.

I’m not sure if Twelve is Will or represents him, but it’s interesting to me that he is in the frame, because Will IS in this shot at school. 

Boy with HELL written on his T-shirt, and chess pieces behind El and Will. What does it mean? That Will was also a prisoner in that hell for a while and he’s actually Twelve? Or maybe that Vecna is playing with both of them.

The school scenes have so many hints. I made a whole analysis just about the school project of the boy behind El during Angela’s presentation, lol. For example. The big yellow school project is about Ruby Bridges. I didn’t know the story of that little girl and her family, but the parallel with El is that she too was isolated from other children. 

And the only teacher Ruby had for a whole year was a woman named Barbara Henry. Henry the mentor, El’s teacher. Then, we see mini-Hopper in the frame with the school project about the father of microbiology (who discovered sperm) And Henry’s name behind Will, in his very gay moment. There’s so much to analyze in these scenes!

I talk about the father of microbiology and other details here. Imo, it’s one of the hints that El and Will might be Jopper’s kids.

Note: the parallel with Ruby is only with El, so we don’t see Will. Because he didn’t spend years alone in the lab. But he’s there in the shot with the chess pieces and the Hell t-shirt, and in many other scenes that parallel Nina. Hm.

And to make it clear that the Rink-o-mania is about the lab, here the boy with the HELL t-shirt, right in front of Angela. 

Then I remembered this. Above El, the disco ball, that represents the Mind Flayer (more here)

A parallel with this scene in S3, when the Mind Flayer was inside her leg.

Rink-o-mania is so important, for the parallels with the lab, birthdaygate, Byler (a curious detail here) I can’t wait to see if they really filmed more scenes there!

[cringengl]

Duos I think are going to have a lot of screentime in st5:

Hopclair (to save Max- this also means lumax and elmax are going to be a bug part of s5 as well)

Byler (duh- all that talk/imagery of them being a team in s2 and s4 and you're telling me they won't be paired up in s5??? Plus there's still major tension and build up from the paitining and Will's feelings from s4)

Stonathan (you saw jancys last convo about how Jonathan isn't entirely convinced Steve has changed and you're telling me they won't get screentime in s5 to prove Jonathan wrong leading to stonathan being besties??? Sure....)

Rovickie (duh we need our sapphic couple to get together)

Ronance (I think Nancy still has some healing left to do with the Barb situation and I think her first female friend since Barb, Robin, is going to help her with that)

Willel (wonder twins who are both very interesting and important to Vecna and his defeat)

Milf byler (idk their ship name but Joyce and Karen. I think Karen has also been having her little conformity arc like Nancy and is going to learn what her children have been through and help break the facade of the nuclear Wheeler family and who better to help her fight demogorgans than Joyce- though I do have to admit this is a little bit of wishful thinking)

[lumism]

hi!! hope you’re having a good day :) what are some things you’d like to see or expect to see in season 5? 🥰

hello lovely! thanks for the ask, i hope you have a wonderful day yourself 😊🌸 under the cut is an uncomplete list, in no real order:

i'm most impatient for anything regarding will's connection to vecna and upside down! also finding out more about the time that he spent there. i really really hope he'll have a big part in the supernatural plotline as well as the coming of age one, and i did sort of already convince myself that he will so! now he must

el with her s2 curls

i need the season to be set in either fall or winter

i am very excited to see the original groups (or something close to it) together again! especially looking forward to interactions between lucas & el, steve & jonathan, robin & jonathan, will & and literally everybody, but also just... all of them as groups! it's been too long since i've seen dustin with the other younger teens

i'd love for vickie to join the older teen group, or at least play a bigger part next season!

also bring back kali i am not asking

outside of the mentioned groups i would also do literally anything to see interactions between robin & will and robin & mike. also nancy & mike! i've been waiting for wheeler sibling moments for years now this is torment. and el & the byers!

willel work together to defeat vecna please please please

mike gets vecnad sure why not. get his ass (affectionate)!

i'm very interested in how nancy's storyline will play out! i do sincerely hope they end the love triangle nonsense as soon as possible and instead focus more on other things

max waking up! i think if they do that right they could tell a story that is very important. also even just the thought of lumax and elmax reunions is making me tear up

"the painting you comissioned" "what painting?"

byler

[runninguplenorahills]

Ok, but takes about certain relationship/friendship dynamics are usually one of the worst takes in this fandom lmao. Not even just melvin because yeah, melvin shippers literally created their own stranger things au and claim it’s canon, but also just other dynamics have been twisted into something they’re clearly not.

[I’m just ranting now and it’s all based on what I got from the show so feel free to disagree]

For example elmike. I love elmike but I will never ever understand how people actually think that El is more important to Mike than Lucas and Dustin!?!?!? Of course Mike cares about her and I’m not trying to invalidate that but he simply doesn’t care more about her than he cares about his other friends!! And Lucas and Dustin are so important to him it’s a crime to disregard his connection to them like that!!

Or willel. I do like willel and I’m happy that El gets to have a bigger family now but to me it’s very evident that her and Will are not as close yet! El didn’t notice or didn’t really care about the fact that Will didn’t get letters from Mike and Will also didn’t feel comfortable enough to confide in her about how that’s making him upset. Everyone always talks about how Mike was in the wrong with the way he acted towards El at rink-o-mania but Will didn’t act any differently! And he also didn’t attempt to comfort her about what happened! Will also didn’t know about the fact that El was lying to Mike because she didn’t feel comfortable to talk about her insecurities with him. What I’m saying is that while they did have some bonding time their bond just isn’t as deep as a lot of people make it out to be and the takes that resulted from thinking that Will and El have some kind of mega-sibling-bond are some of the most out of character takes I’ve ever seen. Like, they’re so trivial and simple but so out of character. I mean, I do think that we’ll get more bonding between them next season but not to a point that overpowers their relationships to other people.

And then we also have the Max/Eddie sibling dynamic which doesn’t make any sense because it’s not compatible with canon whatsoever!! Max immediately thinks that Eddie killed Chrissy which is a valid assumption and Dustin shuts her down by telling her that she wouldn’t think that if she actually knew Eddie! Which is clear evidence that Max and Eddie were never close ever! They didn’t know each other past appearances and reputations and the fact that they both lived at the trailer park didn’t change that at all. Eddie was never an older brother figure to Max and it just makes me mad that people try and make it seem like he was because they’re quite literally also just disregarding what Steve is to Max in the process. They’re putting Eddie above Steve for Max which just isn’t the case at all!! Steve literally got a Max-letter while Eddie didn’t actually know Max! And well, Max is in a coma now and Eddie is bones so the chance of friendship development doesn’t even exist.

I’m sorry for the rant but, essentially, I don’t like out of character scenarios and that’s a personal problem hahaha.

You ever see takes for a storyline or character or relationship and you're like "how did you get here when the show has been telling you otherwis since S1"

[madwheelerz]

Who’s Spying?

I believe that something that is decidedly not Vecna has been watching over Mike since before the events of season one even begins. We see him from some very odd angles at times and it’s almost like we peer in at him. We don’t do this nearly as often with other characters even if they are shown under framing that implies stalking. It’s not to the extent that Mike is.

(more stalking shots)

So, who do I think is spying? The mind flayer or maybe for the purpose of this post the “shadow”. Mike’s understanding of the shadow is very unsettling under this perspective, but I digress. @boysdontcryboycry pointed out that Mike’s name only appears in the second episode summary of a season, if it appears at all and so far it has appeared three times, mysteriously absent in the season three summary. The also noted that his appearance with different groups totaled to seven and all that I could think of was the relationship between seven and demogorgons.

In season two the main villain is the shadow, and this is the same for season three. In season one all signs are pointing to Vecna and we know in season four that Vecna is the big bad. This to me implies that Mike is opposite of the shadow and that while Willel are off fighting and defeating Vecna, Mike will have to deal with the eldritch monster that might have been spying on him. So many important numbers make their appearance in the Wheeler house: 8:15, the moment Karen calls off the game, 20, which we hear repeated a few times and is what will be needed to win, a campaign that took 2 weeks to plan and stopping breaks the flow. Vecna not being able to continue back-to-back once he’s been foiled.

There’s also 10 hours and two 10s make a 20. The shadow intends to utilize Will to spy- on what exactly? What is the shadow so interested in that it needs to be close to in order to understand? The shadow is capable of moving across plains so what does it need Will for? Perhaps to spy on Mike? It knows Mike’s name and nobody else’s.

The hivemind tries to grab Mike specifically.

This honestly makes the hub reference that much more ominous. Mike’s sensitivity to Will feeling the supernatural and Will feeling the supernatural specifically when it has to do with Mike. We have to remember that Will might be connected to Vecna, but the shadow is what possessed him and what likely continues to possess him. We learn in season three more fully that the shadow can go dormant and allow the host to do as it pleases.

We also see Mike in some very odd outfits, odd in the color choices. We see him in green in every season, but four. We see him in red in season one, we see him in outfits that seem to have all the colors of the clocks in stranger things, primary colors with a green background, in them.

El

I believe El is to Mike what demogorgons are to the shadow. That is, I think Mike created El in the same way that I suspect that the shadow created demogorgons. Micha(el) and (El)even. Now you might be wondering if he created her what about her number? What significance does the number 11 have to Mike? Well, it’s his birthday number. Mike’s birthday is 4/7/1971. 4 + 7 is 11 and even if you include the year and go 4 + 7 + 1 + 9 + 7 + 1 = 29, 2+9 = 11.

Also, the meaning of their birth names is reflective. Michael means “gift from god” while Jane means “god is gracious”. They imply something similar. The kindness of a deity. This also likely why there seems to be a glitch with the Ives because Jane didn’t exist instead her history is filling itself out as we go. That would be the kicker wouldn’t it all the parallels to Mike and different parental figures in El’s life leading up to this.

In conclusion my idea is that Willel will be going after Vecna while Michael will come face-to-face with the shadow.

[chirpsythismorning]

a little nervous here bc while there are sus clues in the show that could be telling us abt willel being biological twins, there's also some stuff that could hint at mike and el being related too..☠️with all the strange creel x wheeler similarities and theories abt henry possibly being el's biological father.☠️ the latter is less luckily imo and personally i don't like the theory of willel being biological siblings very much either but i cant deny there's something really sus going on

Henry is definitely NOT El’s biological father, nor Will's. So you don't have to worry about that being a possibility. And so even if the Wheelers ended up being related to the Creels somehow, El nor Will are related to Henry by blood.

Joyce is 100% Will’s mom, and so because of all the twin imagery being associated with Will and El, I’m fairly confident that means Joyce has gotta be El’s mom too.

My theory relies on time trickery/false memories/memory stealing in general, which is why Joyce and Hopper don't know Will/El are their biological twins.

But also just to be clear, in 1959, Henry was 12 and Joyce and Hopper were 17… So yeah, he’s not El nor Will's dad.

I also think the play The First Shadow being added to canon as a prequel of sorts, supports this theory. The fact that it's set in 1959, and is going to focus on young Joyce and Hopper, dealing with 'the shadows of the past'...

It's likely that once Henry 'figured out' that he could turn back the clock (important to note that the clock in the Creel house little Henry watched turn back, was on the same time as the clock in Hawkins Lab...), then it would make A LOT of sense for him to go back to 1959, a time when Joyce and Hopper were together, to ensure they still had Jon/Will/El, but to change the events surrounding it so that they would essentially have no idea.

It's very much giving Back to the Future Part II, where Biff goes back to the past and messes up the trajectory of the future timeline, leading to George McFly dying, essentially leaving the kids with an absolute shit stain of a father whose not actually their father, aka Lonnie...

I'm still not certain about how it would all work and that's bc the implications of time trickery complicate things, making it near impossible to navigate. Not only are we dealing with turning back the clock, we're also potentially dealing with time-loops, where time could be getting turned back over and over and over again, without the character's knowledge that they've done this before.

And so if this is their 5th, 6th, 7th, or thousandth time going through this, they apparently aren't aware of it (at least not fully), which means their understanding of their past/present is pretty shaky as it is.

Though tbh I think where I get most confused about how all of this works is when it comes to the Hawkins Lab's stake in what's going on? Do they know about Henry's plans? Do they know there is time trickery going on? Are they playing a big part in orchestrating certain things?

Technically, in s4, Brenner and Owens admitted that they're keeping part of the truth from El. They literally showed her the 'true' events of the lab massacre in 4x07, only to reveal that wasn't even the full truth privately without her around? And so clearly, they know about something that is being hidden from us that we still haven't been clued in on, meaning it's being saved for s5. And so, what is it?

For now I'm not certain about everything, but there's a lot of evidence supporting this as a series long revelation.

And the fact that David Harbour has been saying for years that there are Easter Eggs in s1 that are going to lead to a really beautiful ending, makes it sort of click for me that he was probably talking about this...

[there-was-a-hole-here-itsgonenow]

Growing Masterlist

A place to keep analyses, theories, and thoughts.

💙💛

🌈 Conclusion for Byler Prediction!

• Potential Stranger Things/IT Parallel: Will and Mike leave Hawkins Together… Just like Ben and Bev leave Derry Together! ✨

⚡️Will-Focused

• The Iron Rod Metaphor: Will’s Upside Down-related Trauma ✨

• Mistaken Identity, Vecna’s Transcendence, and A Favored Boy: Will is The One Who will End the UD-Apocalypse ✨

Absolutely excellent thread of additions to this post that make it even better with lilitblaukatz, scrunchietown, and starsarefire824.

• The original Pride flag’s purple stripe is “Spirit” — Will the Wise, the strength of Will’s spirit

& Argyle association! (lilitblaukatz)

• ‘One’ appears in sign over Will and Mike’s heads in s3

• The Pink Panther in Will’s Bedroom: Significance on Will’s Value for Vecna?

• Andy Barclay (Child’s Play) and Will Byers similarities I’d wish to see paralleled in ST s5 (if it were referenced)

❤️‍🔥Mike-Focused

• JAWSgate posts:

Will’s JAWS Poster: Targeting Mike ✨

Possible JAWS parallels with Vecna’s end + Mike fake-out death (with thoughts about final battle in water)

More In-Water Imagery for Byler, possibly connected to JAWS and the Void (not Mike-focused but in direct association with above theories/analyses)

• Web/Gridgate Imagery in Mike’s Rubik’s Cube + Willel & Byler color theory -> Mike’s Final Strategy (Rubikscubegate) ✨

• [Ongoing] Split-Shading series ✨:

Split Shades of Mike Wheeler: His Heart is In the Shadows and Light (A+ addition by pppp-lesbian)

MORE Split Shades of Mike’s Heart: Crazy Together

Mike Split-Shading at the Snowball + Will-Resembling Background Character

• S3 MEAT sign above Mlleven (A duo post with howtobecomeadragon!) ✨

• The invalidation of “No. You don’t.” -> Mike thinks his traumas are lesser than.

• thegap Metaphor

• Mike’s fear of losing Will an absolute necessity for s5: Mike ‘losing’ Will at the quarry must be emphasized

• Mike cringing at ‘love at first sight’ while his heart/pocket points toward Will

MORE notes on ‘love at first sight’ for Mike + Numbers and Color Theory + ‘Father’(?)Henry

❤️‍🔥Mike’s Basement Beats

• First three ‘last’ songs describing the eventual progression of Mike’s character - Smalltown Boy, Always Something There to Remind Me, She Blinded Me With Science

She Blinded Me With Science follow-up

⚡️Will’s Castle Byers Classics

• Blue Veins - Will’s POV of Mike and how that POV sets up Vecna to fail

🌷Eleven’s Breakfast Jams & Byler

• Eleven’s Breakfast Jams isn’t pro-Melvin ✨

• Kept Me Crying & Breakdown: “You don’t love me anymore” vs “It’s alright if you love me, It’s alright if you don’t...”

• Stuck & Just What I Needed: “Waste away our lives” vs “I don’t mind you comin’ here and wastin’ all my time”

🌈 Byler Color Theory Posts

• Clues in Mike’s and Karen’s s3 yellow shirts that automatically connect Mike to Karen’s “People are always saying you can’t. That you shouldn’t” conversation with Nancy.

• Green, Blue, and Yellow: All Present in Season 3’s Finale, Explicitly Showing Who Mike Wants to Be With

• Season 3 Will’s Blue and Red shirt, Jonathan’s Green shirt: Brief highlight of Will’s perspective and Jonathan’s love for his brother

• “i lOve HeR aNd I cAN’t lOse HEr aGaIN!”

• The Blue Phone and Yellow Wall: Foreshadowing Mike’s Calls

• “It’s gonna be okay”

• Undefined relationships: A “gray area” in Will’s s4 shirt

UPDATE to “gray area”: Undefined and Defined Relationships in the Same Scene + Mike Split-Shading Relevancy

• Yellow, Blue, and Red In Will’s Closet: “Friends… Best friends.”

🌈 Miscellaneous Byler

• Disney’s Figment in Bingham House: A Symbol of Breaking Convention 🐲 (Figmentgate) ✨

Important Figmentgate Addition! -> Figment is Queer-coded and may indicate Creation Powers for Will! 🌈🐲✨

• 7+7: Will and Mike ARE the Keys for Completion (Excellent thread featuring stranger-chichka and lilitblaukatz) ✨

• A Thread on Loch Nora: Expectations, Conformity, and More ✨

Awesome, very thoughtful additions that made this post better!

stranger-chichka / bylerschmyler

aemiron-main

lilitblaukatz

• Will is Always Involved in Melvin Shots - Even the most Obscure

• Themes of Privacy and Safety for Will and Mike

• Mounted Deer Symbolism (With multiple threads of thought to go deeper and deeper on!)

starsarefire824, googoogagaeyes, pinkeoni, and stranger-chichka - They all made a fantastic thread of info here!!

emblazons - Another great addition!

• Paladin and Cleric Both Guide the Party

• Technically Official Byler Merch

• ACTUAL OFFICIAL BYLER MERCH - No analysis needed!!!✨

• Mike’s Heart would Save Will’s Life

• Hearts gone crazy together

• El and Mike are the show’s E.T. and Elliot: Positive Separation Followed by a Rainbow

🌷Thoughts on El with Byler Relevancy

• El’s Soap Opera Signals Midleven’s End ✨

• El as a Rose: Mike’s untruthful love projections and El’s emerging self-love

[willel]

I think the problem with Will is that every single relationship in his life seems so one sided. Noah even said that he feels like the other characters on the show don’t like Will

I think that's become his perception, Noah's too I suppose. Even the audience a bit.

They are all finding new interests and pulling away, so Will feels left out in the dirt. It's a normal thing teenagers do, but it's worse for Will because of what he went through. He's not dating any of his friends, so the only attachment he feels like he has is their shared trauma from Upside Down shenanigans and d&d. Will wants things to "go back to normal", but there is no "normal" anymore and never will be again. It could totally be an insecurity of his that Vecna hones in on. "They only truly care about you when you're in danger, don't they?"

I don't think this is true though even though it feels like it. His friends and family really do love him. They would be devastated if anything ever happened to him. But there's always gonna be a black sheep who feels like they don't fit in. Whether they do or not depends on the situation. Unfortunately, he's the black sheep.

As a fellow black sheep, he's doing what all we black sheep do. Start slowly (or drastically) pulling away because we feel like we aren't needed or that there's nothing we can do to contribute to the people we love. That they don't need us or we're a burden to them. You start coming up with reasons why everyone must be pulling away from you. That it must be something you did or something you said. it's a feeling that's difficult to overcome and can lead to very dark thoughts. "I wonder if they've thought about me at all? I'm sure they do they called me last week, but..." "Would they even notice if I were gone? Of course they would... but would they?" It's a struggle.

WHICH IS WHY, I think Jonathan's speech is very important.

That part where Jonathan makes it very clear that the distance between them is NOT Will's fault and that he's not upset with Will or bothered by him or anything like that. That he's just been distracted with his own stuff and he hopes that even when he's distracted by other stuff, Will can still find comfort and company in him.

It really goes to show how much love Will has to give and how badly he wants some kind of reciprocation as he offers Jonathan the same comfort Jonathan is offering to him. "I'm here for you too."

So I get where Noah is coming from. I do hope that Will can find others to confide in about his personal feelings and struggle. I mean, other than Jonathan of course. He doesn't talk to anyone (except Jonathan) about his personal struggle unless it's an outburst (that Will vs Mike argument).

I feel like in California, El probably leaned on Will a lot which is great and all, I love me some WillEl family feels as we all know. BUT I kinda wonder if someday, he can also lean on El's shoulder for stuff. Especially the supernatural stuff none of their friends can truly understand. We know now that Will didn't really explain shit to anyone about what the Upside Down was really like based on the teens scrambling with what to do while they were there. Imagine holding all that inside. In Brenner's words, it's like a festering wound.

There's always Joyce too, but phew. She's been going through a lot since Bob's death and it does kinda seem like she's lost touch a little bit with her sons and El.

I really hope season 5 dives into these dynamics, but...... I don't have high hopes. It really feels like they're excited to give us a love triangle bonanza rather than some complicated family dynamics which sucks. Doesn't help that at every fan event i hear whispers of, people repeatedly ask about the ships and basically nothing else, so the fans are all for the triangles too and I'm just like urggggg

This is stuff I feel like we should've gotten way more of in season 3 and 4. Not just for Will either. For Jonathan. For Joyce. Hell, even Mike and Nancy who we STILL haven't gotten a lot of sibling content for. It's a shame. One of the worst offenders is no insight into what Max was feeling about her step-brother being the big bad.

[strangaloid]

j..just found out Ib had a Remake. and was hit by a very tiny burst of energy I'm losing my entire mind actually...this isn't how I wanted to post about Ib for the first time but I'm going feral over them rn—

Mike = Ib, willel = Garry/Mary

there's an alternate version where Mike is Garry because he's super tall and only survives because of this tiny child that really shouldn't be able to survive alone and because elmike fighting over protecting a tiny Will gives me some kinda Vibes but. anyway the rhyming names won

they're holding roses that represent their HP in game.....also while Ib (and presumably Mary) is 9, I just wanted more height difference and st number refs, so I bumped Mike down to 7 and El up to 11. maybe Will is (d)20

the most important Minor minor detail of the entire au.....is that Will has a lighter....and he threaded copper wire through the holes at the top. so when he lights it the copper burns and the flame turns green. because I think. he should always have his green fire refs🔥

anyway. Will is having an all around bad time (stalked by cursed little demodolls and living paintings💙), El simply wants to gtfo of this hell dimension, and Mike is just. there. surviving as children do. without comprehending the entirety of the horror genre he's in. while willel try to ensure that at least Mike escapes mostly unscathed, even if they aren't doing so good themselves

[willthecleric]

Why I am now 100% convinced that Mike is gay with internal homophobia, deeply in love with Will, and using Eleven as a projection

Okay, so before I start this post, I want to say that this isn’t just me being a mad Byler shipper angry about Mileven. This is me looking at subtext within the show (and especially S3) and analyzing from there. I’ve done a lot of rewatching certain scenes and looking into things deeper. I’ve also discussed quite a bit of this stuff with @kaypeace21 and we agree on pretty much everything.

For the longest time I thought Mike was BISEXUAL with a crush on El, projecting it as being way more than it was (because the dude went from 0 to 60). S3... S3 convinced me that Mike is not bisexual after all... I am now 100% convinced that he is GAY and suffering from internal homophobia (seriously, looking at his actions in S3 puts his ‘oocness’ and over the top behaviour in S2 into a lot better perspective). WILL’S behaviour also makes a lot more sense when you look at him as being gay and deeply in love with Mike (I won’t get too much into that though, because most of the fandom already believes that he is gay and in love with Mike).

Before I go into things properly, I would like to say that I am not implying that Mileven doesn’t love each other... They do. What I feel is that they love each other PLATONICALLY (El might have a bit of a crush on Mike, but mostly I think she gets confused).

Season One

Okay, so there wasn’t a lot of Byler in S1 - it was more Mileven based, but still. There WAS Byler content there. To start with, I would like to say that... I don’t really buy Mike’s crush on El. It feels... weird and forced. It never really felt RIGHT to me, and I never really saw the chemistry. It was weird.

Now, a lot of people say that Mike wasn’t THAT determined to get Will back in S1... I disagree. I actually think that he and Joyce were the ones that were the most determined to get him back... in the sense that they NEVER GAVE UP ON HIM (Mike and Joyce are actually paralleled A LOT. Like... A LOT. When it comes to WILL - as in they BOTH LOVE HIM DEEPLY). MIKE was the one who organized the search party after Hopper told them not to. MIKE was the one who was most visibly upset when talking to Hopper in the first place (boy looked like he wanted to cry and seemed really annoyed by Lucas and Dustin bickering). MIKE was the one who noticed immediately when Will wasn’t at school and thought it was strange. MIKE also was the one who most adamantly denied that Will was dead. I don’t think he even processed his death tbh. His reaction was... weird. He seemed to be more mad at El for lying to him than sad that Will was gone. And we know Mike loves Will a lot so it’s not that he didn’t care. He cared A LOT. He just... could not process it properly. And then AFTER SEEING WILL’S BODY JUST BEFORE... he heard Will on the radio (with pretty bad reception) and IMMEDIATELY knew it was Will. Like... in no seconds flat he was alert. And that boy clung to the hope. He didn’t even think he was losing his mind or anything. He KNEW it was Will because he never processed that he was dead. He even said when he saw the body in the first place that it COULDN’T BE WILL.

Lucas was determined too and I give him lots of love for it... Dude is BRAVE and LOYAL and risked his life. But he also was way more accepting that Will was dead than Mike and Joyce.

And as far as Eleven in all this... Mike was IMMEDIATELY physically attracted to her. As soon as he saw her. While she not only looked like a BOY, but looked a lot like WILL. Seriously El and Will look similar! Hopper EVEN CONFUSED THEM FOR PART OF S1. That was deliberate I think, and clearly not because of Willel because Willel was never really developed. Mike only actually ADMITTED that she was pretty when she dressed like a girl, but he also started sending her heart eyes... like really quickly. When he barely knew her at all. It was... weird. And forced. I think he started seeing her as a projection for his love for Will (S3 strongly implies this to be the case). Naturally all of this was subconscious. Pretty much the whole series so far this boy is in denial. And a lot of people think Mike put El before Will... I disagree. Mike DID go to look for El, but keep in mind... EL COULD LOCATE WILL. At that point Mike was convinced he had a crush on her, but WILL was his priority. He KNEW El was crucial to finding Will. Think about this... they run charging into the gate... and end up in an Upside Down version of Hawkins with no real idea where Will is and a monster on the loose. Using El to find him was IMPORTANT. Notice how Mike was immediately back to wanting Will located as soon as she was with them again. How he wasn’t prioritizing her getting exhausted over her trying to find him. He even referred to her as someone they could use to find Will... multiple times. AND he told her that they could go to the Snow Ball when WILL WAS BACK. Mike didn’t forget about Will. Mike prioritized him! AND when they were in the hospital after Will was back... MIKE was the only person who was awake the whole time, eager to see Will, he was the first person in the room (that boy RAN and usually he can’t run for shit), and he put his head over his heart like he was checking he was still alive. People can interpret this as friendship... but I think S2 and S3 greatly contradicts this.

Season Two

I won’t touch upon this one too much, because it has been done to death... but this is the BYLER season. It was everywhere. And not in a platonic sense! Mike was... over the top protective of Will the entire time, and very affectionate. In ways that he is with no one else. I don’t think he ever was even like that with El. and there are SO MANY PARALLELS. With pretty much every ship that has been in the series. There are loads of examples. Most of the parallels were with Mileven... and I used to think that was a hint to Mike being bisexual... but now I think it is a hint to the LOVE TRIANGLE, not his sexuality. Mike was just... REALLY clingy to Will. He was basically attached to him the entire time AND they had a bunch of ‘romantic’ scenes.

Now, as far as El goes... Mike was WAY OVER THE TOP. Like... it was crazy. Very excessive (kind of like his behaviour in S3 but in a different way). At the end of S1 he was sad and missed her... but like a year later... he was... just  too much. He was OBSESSED with El. I always found it really weird. I get that they ‘connected’ but Mike was acting like she was everything he needed in life when he BARELY KNEW HER. And his never giving up on her? He called her every night and that is great. He is a loyal boy... but he did WAY MORE for Will in S1. Mike... thinks he sees her outside his window, but instead of looking for her in the woods (the logical place he could go, where he could find her), he mopes around and acts emo. When Will was in another dimension he did more. Also Mike heard Will on the radio and was right back into action... but he saw El and just thought he was being delusional. He also stopped calling her when Will was in trouble. I’m not saying this like Mike doesn’t care about El. I’m saying that Mike prioritizes Will when need be. He cared for El, but mostly she was someone who he could project his love for Will upon. He could be with her and have a heterosexual relationship and be ‘in love’. This was SUBCONSCIOUS of course. No way would Mike EVER do that knowingly. He isn’t like that. And when El was back... he was SUPER over the top about her. Like.. this guy has convinced himself he is in love with her despite barely knowing her. At all. And his looks at her are so FORCED.

Look at Mike’s ‘soft looks’ towards Will in comparison. They are a lot more natural.

Season Three

A lot of people think that S3 is pretty much the end of Byler, but I disagree. I think actually S3 confirms for sure that they are in love. I mean... to me it is so obvious. And it explains their behaviour SO WELL. I mean look at Will. That boy was incredibly jealous of El. He had no problem with Dustin and Lucas having girlfriends, but Mike??? Will got REALLY pissy and there were multiple times he looked upset over Mileven.

And Mike? WOW. S3... is when I KNEW he most certainly had to be gay for ANY of his behaviour to make sense. Mike.. was an ass. Definitely. BUT I think there was a reason for his attitude - not justifying it, just explaining it.

What started me off with wondering was @kaypeace21 posting analyses on Mike’s behaviour and... they made A LOT of sense to me. (They can be found here and here). People can easily dismiss this... but I actually think it is wrong to. I mean... Look at Mike’s behaviour in S3. How he treats both EL and WILL especially.

Mike is... distant with Will while he also still clearly loves him deeply. He isn’t visibly affectionate with him anymore, but look at how he was with him in the theater... SOFT and concerned like usual. Look at him after he upset Will during the DnD game. Wasn’t he MORE upset over that than he was over lying to El and hurting her? When he is supposed to be madly in love with El? That... makes no sense. A lot of people think Mike doesn’t care anymore, but I think he is actually realizing that he is in love with Will and is trying to squash it. Notice now, when they are GOING THROUGH PUBERTY (you know... a time when you really get a better sense of your sexuality) he is suddenly being off with Will. Will who he is used to be very affectionate with and had no issues with. Now he isn’t really like that anymore. And he is suddenly wanting to act VERY hetterosexual.

Maybe because he has internalized homophobia???

See how he is with El. It’s... not at all how he was with her in S1 and S2. I think it’s because now he is going through puberty and El is going through puberty... and she looks more and more like a WOMAN. I think Mike’s obsession with her was breaking because it became A LOT harder for him to convince himself he was in love with her because she was looking less and less ‘boyish’. I mean... look at his behaviour. He was being a dick. And sexist. I strongly believe that he was trying to emulate the heterosexual relationships of his friends and the feelings that they had... but he was overcompensating for it. And acting too much like I AM A BOY WHO LIKES GIRLS. I AM IN LOVE WITH EL!

This is also why Mike was REALLY going hard with how much he loves El in public... When the Byers moved he was really going with it when they were in the group, but when they were alone he didn’t act sad really. Then they were outside again and he was being lovey dovey. Isn’t that more proof that he is trying to convince everyone else that he loves her?

All they really did was kiss. He barely got to know her more as a person and didn’t like her going outside in the world. He saw her more as a possession. He wanted to be with her romantically but he DIDN’T KNOW HOW TO. And then he tried emulating the people around him and took it a step further. He went way too far. Even CHARACTERS IN THE SERIES thought it was over the top. I think... Mike was trying REALLY HARD to convince both himself AND everyone else that he was in love with El. Just look at that cabin scene. Mike went crazy there, said he loved El... and everyone reacted strangely. And then MIKE reacted strangely too. It was like he had NO IDEA why he said that. AT ALL. Then in the store when he was trying to confess to her... I’m sorry but I don’t buy AT ALL that he was nervous. He was... way too over the top and forced and I could literally feel him forcing himself with it. Like wow. He was really going hard while not being able to express how he felt. AND he said that to him love makes you CRAZY. (like this, perhaps???) Interesting that of ALL the sayings he could come up with, it was that love makes you CRAZY. There are loads of sayings about love, but to him it’s going CRAZY WITH SOMEONE.

Also... when Mike told El that she was ‘the most important thing in the world’ to him, the tone was weird. Honestly I think he was trying to convince himself that it was true. His speech to Will was a lot more honest and heart felt. I think Mike understood the implications of what he said to Will and then was trying to force it onto El. Mike loves her, but he sure hasn’t treated her like she is the most important thing in the world to him??? Sounded empty to me.

I will note that Mike seems to parrot a lot of cliche ‘love expressions’ with El in general. Like he is saying what he thinks he is supposed to. Acting like he is supposed to.

Also funny how... when they are at Will’s house... MIKE CAN’T REMEMBER SAYING HE LOVES HER.And he probably can’t remember trying to confess either. Soooooo he can remember meeting Will when he was FIVE and the whole ‘crazy together’ thing from the year before... but he can’t remember either saying he loves OR trying to confess to the girl he is madly in love with THREE MONTHS earlier??? That... isn’t suspect to anyone? Really? In fact... that entire interaction was suspect. Mike was odd. And the only time he was excited was when he mentioned Will... which he tried to play off as being casual. Why do that when it’s just a bro? (And speaking of bros.. why is he suddenly referring to Will as one? That is... odd. Suddenly when they are older and more mature Will is a BRO. Like he is wanting DISTANCE FROM HIM). The whole exchange with El was really weird and not at all romantic.He was shocked by the kiss, didn’t close his eyes, and looked confused afterwards. That five second exchange with Will had more love and happiness in it. And it was flirty.

That exchange... was them saying that they would always love each other. Mike was worried that Will would replace him and Will said he never would. Will said he would ALWAYS love Mike. Which he also said during their fight (that he had believed that they would PLAY GAMES FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES). And Mike will always love Will too... during that ‘confession’ when he talked about ‘going crazy’ with someone, he added in that he wanted to GROW OLD with them. Mike will always love Will too.

Another aside is that as far as Mike goes, playing games is associated with Will and growing up is associated with El... you know... the thing that  a man is supposed to do... find a girlfriend and grow up. I think the scene in the garage was Mike being defensive tbh. He was just crazy asserting that he was doing what he was SUPPOSED TO DO. And... when he wasn’t with El anymore, he started playing games again. He was doing what he WANTED TO DO. Playing games seems to be his natural inclination, but he is also curbing it... In that scene with El, he started talking about how he likes presents but then stopped himself and reprimanded himself. He wanted to sound more like an adult. To me it seemed like he was trying to force himself from what he wanted (Will) to what he was supposed to want (El).

Despite how awkward and not into it Mike was, he seems to be trying to cling to El still. To try and force himself back to how he was before when he was sure he was in love with her. I strongly believe that in S4 he will be with El again, but it will be like it was in S3. And if the Duffers aren’t cowards, they will actually have Byler in the end. Honestly at this point Mileven is just... it’s nonsensical more than ever. It’s a joke. I’m not sure how they can salvage it??? They... did not have good romantic chemistry AT ALL. I don’t  think they EVER even had real feelings for each other. And we are supposed to think they are soulmates and in love? Nope. I don’t think so at all. And I think Mike is definitely gay because he tries SO HARD to act like a straight guy. How many straight guys in the season thought he was weird and over the top? A NUMBER OF THEM. Because it was true. The boy didn’t know how to be with a girl once she started LOOKING LIKE A YOUNG WOMAN.

Was some of this me overthinking? Maybe... but remember... while the Duffers have really messed a number of things up with this show... they have generally been consistant With Byler. Also if this is baiting, it’s the worst baiting I have ever seen. They... have gone way over the top with this while developing Mileven very poorly. IDK why they would do that if it was their precious endgame. They might back out at the last moment because they are cowards... but at this moment in time I think this is legit. And they are endgame no matter what because Mike clearly is in denial. Like... his character makes a lot more sense this way.

Mike loves Will NOT El.

[palmviolet]

jopper in s3 - final predictions

so, we’ve been told very little about jopper’s plotline and shown even less - which leads me to believe it is too important and integral to the main storyline to be shown. thanks to that magazine article we know joyce notices something going wrong with magnets, and goes to hopper for help. we think there might be a possible moving storyline, what with “i want you to feel like this can still be your home” and the byers’ possibly empty house. we also know that our “thirst will be quenched” re jopper happening and that david is very “satisfied” with that storyline. added to that very deliberately chosen shot of handholding in the new trailer and i think we can be sure of two things:

jopper is going to happen, or at least be well on its way to happening, in s3

it’s not going to go down how we expect/we’re going to be left with a cliffhanger ending

this in mind, let’s look at what might happen. honestly, i’m unsure for most of the season. i think the scene of them arguing about mileven in the store happens in the first episode. i think joyce might lose her job at the end of this episode or in episode 2, to coincide with the mall opening and el’s makeover montage. i think this will cause her to look into moving, alongside maybe something minorly supernatural happening (probably the stuff with magnets) that leads her to believe she and her family are no longer safe. i’m unsure on where hopper’s date comes into this - if joyce is indeed standing him up, i think it probably comes right after she loses her job, which changes her mind for her, unbeknownst to him.

then i think they get sucked into the conspiracy involving the mayor and the mall. i think they attempt to put it right and look for evidence of his misdeeds, during which we get the ‘it is important to me that you feel safe’ speech. i think their investigation leads them to the opening of the fair, where they are attacked by the man with a gun, who i assume is a russian agent (because i’ve seen it tossed around that the russians are behind the mall) trying to stop them uncovering the conspiracy. this is where hopper gets the bruises on his face. karen, ted and holly get in the way of this somehow, leading to the scenes of them all together, but i do think their involvement will be minor. i think hopper will have contacted murray for help with this, which is why he’s at the fair with them (and later the mall).

i think in the morning after this they confront the mayor. that’s the first still of them, in that house with the green wallpaper. i think that’s either the mayor’s office or house, because it’s very ostentatious with neoclassical pillars etc. (see image below)

i believe jopper’s storyline revolves around the conspiracy aspect of the show this season, like it did in s1, because there are usually three ‘strands’ of plot that weave together at the end - horror, sci fi, and conspiracy. i think jonathan and nancy and most of the kids have the horror plot, the characters at scoops ahoy (steve, dustin, robin, erica) have the sci fi plot, and so jopper have the conspiracy again.

i’m not too sure where the shots of them in the woods come in. i think that might be before all the stuff at the fair - maybe when she first tells him about the magnet stuff.

then it’s a bit hazy, but somehow they wind up at the mall for the endgame. i think here we’re going to get a confession of feelings or a kiss or something in the heat of danger, (don’t hate me) right before hopper appears to die. i think right before this joyce has to change into the clothes of some dead soldier (the khaki outfit we see her in in the set pics of the end) for some reason, and then the shot of her reaching out in the trailer with an agonised expression is her trying to save hopper. we see him and a man i assume is the assassin from earlier preparing to fight in front of some massive generator thing, and what she’s reaching to looks like a control panel - maybe the generator is overloading (?) or something and she manages to save the town but apparently can’t save hopper.

she makes it out of the mall without him, and reunites with the kids - see the set pics of her embracing will. this is when (borrowing from @willel ‘s theory) will and el are taken away by the soldiers. joyce is close to losing everything at this point - she thinks hopper’s dead, she’s about to lose her son - so she puts up such a fight that they end up sedating and taking her too. (this is extrapolated from noah saying that something happens at the end of s3 meaning he, millie and winona have more screentime together in s4).

cut to the darkened, ruined mall - maybe we see hopper’s eyes opening, or him escaping at the last moment. this is the season’s cliffhanger - will, el, and joyce taken away, hopper believed dead by everyone and ready for a quest to get his family back.

i’m sure there’s lots i’ve missed and the season may well play out very differently, but honestly this is how i see it all happening. there’s been a lot of talk about cliffhangers and a bittersweet or sad ending from the cast - and this would certainly be that.