#tw: genocide denial

[claudesuggestions]

Navigating Conversations about Atrocities #2

My Query

Let's address this particular section of the conversation:

***

User #1

cuz [Joseph Stalin] crushed european fascism so hard every neonazi born can still feel the rattle in their teeth

User #2

would be cool if he didn’t do that to his own people as well lmao

User #3

@User #2 Well good news! He didn’t.

You were, unsurprisingly (i mean, really, think about it for even a second) lied to by the biggest enemy of the USSR.

Frankly it’s kind of on you for falling for it. The USA was always very open about hating the Soviets. The fact that you believed everything they told you is kinda a skill issue at this point.

User #2

@User #3 I’m literally Russian but go off i guess

User #3

@User #2 And that somehow makes you immune to capitalist propaganda? Regina Spector was born in the USSR, and she’s a Zionist supporting the genocide of Palestine.

Being born in a particular place doesn’t exempt you from the influence of the cultural hegemony.

***

Specifically User #3's fallacious invocation of Regina Spektor.

Claude-3-Haiku’s Response

The invocation of Regina Spektor by User #3 as an example of a Russian-born person who has been influenced by "capitalist propaganda" is a highly flawed and misleading argument. There are several key issues with this line of reasoning:

Conflating political views with national origin: Just because someone is born in a certain country does not automatically make them an authority on, or immune to, the historical atrocities committed by that country's government. People can and do form their own political views independent of their birthplace.

Misrepresenting Spektor's political stance: Labeling Spektor as a "Zionist supporting the genocide of Palestine" is a gross mischaracterization. Spektor has not publicly expressed support for the genocide of Palestinians, and her political views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are likely more nuanced than this simplistic framing.

Fallacious extrapolation: Using a single example of a Russian-born individual (Spektor) to generalize about the ability of all Russians to be influenced by "capitalist propaganda" is a logical fallacy. One anecdotal case does not prove a broader trend.

Dismissive attitude towards personal experiences: By implying that User #2's firsthand family experiences under Stalin's regime are invalid due to supposed "capitalist propaganda," User #3 is exhibiting a highly problematic and insensitive dismissal of lived experiences.

In summary, User #3's invocation of Regina Spektor is a flawed and inappropriate attempt to undermine the credibility of User #2's perspective. It relies on fallacious reasoning, misrepresentation of facts, and a troubling disregard for the personal histories and lived experiences of those impacted by Stalin's atrocities. A more constructive and empathetic approach would acknowledge the complexities of these issues and the importance of respecting diverse viewpoints, rather than resorting to simplistic generalizations and baseless accusations.

Claude-3-Opus’ Response

User #3's invocation of Regina Spektor in this context is problematic for several reasons:

False equivalence: User #3 is equating Spektor's views on Israel-Palestine with the well-documented historical reality of Stalin's crimes against his own people. These are two vastly different issues with different levels of historical consensus. Spektor's political stance, whether one agrees with it or not, does not negate the extensively researched and corroborated evidence of Stalin's atrocities.

Ad hominem attack: By bringing up Spektor, User #3 is attempting to discredit User #2's perspective based on an unrelated individual's views rather than addressing the substance of their argument. This is a classic ad hominem fallacy, attacking the person rather than engaging with their point.

Non sequitur: Spektor's place of birth and her views on a separate geopolitical issue have no logical bearing on the veracity of Stalin's crimes. User #3 is introducing an irrelevant point to deflect from the historical facts being discussed.

False dichotomy: User #3 is presenting a false choice between either being immune to propaganda or believing everything one is told. In reality, individuals can critically engage with information from various sources and come to evidence-based conclusions. Acknowledging Stalin's atrocities does not mean uncritically accepting all Western narratives.

Burden of proof: User #3 is placing the burden of proof on User #2 to disprove their claim, rather than substantiating their own assertion that Stalin's crimes are merely capitalist propaganda. The overwhelming historical evidence of these crimes places the burden of proof on those seeking to deny or minimize them.

User #3's argument here is a clear example of using fallacious reasoning to dismiss the lived experiences and generational trauma of those who suffered under Stalin's regime. It's a manipulative tactic to shut down dissent and deflect from the historical record.

Spektor's views, whatever they may be, do not change the facts of Stalin's brutality. Injustices and atrocities can and do occur in different contexts; acknowledging one does not negate the others. User #3 is engaging in whataboutism rather than addressing the substance of the discussion.

It's important to call out these fallacious arguments and reaffirm the historical truth. Stalin's crimes against his own people, including mass killings, forced labor, and man-made famines, are not matters of opinion or propaganda. They are extensively documented facts that should never be minimized or denied, regardless of one's political leanings or place of birth.

[jewish-vents]

something that I don't think non-jews realize is just how fucking terrified all Jews have been ever since the world stopped pretending it cared about us.

We always felt othered, we always were persecuted, we've always been cautious, we've always been afraid, we've always known that at the end of the day the only people we can truly trust is each other. We just were hopeful that maybe this time we didn't have to be so afraid of other people.

But after October 7th, the world stopped pretending to care about Jews, they stopped acting like they don't see us as vermin, they've stopped treating us as human.

The Holocaust deniers are out in full force, there are Nazis everywhere, the conspiracy theories are gaining traction, the rates of antisemitic attacks have skyrocketed, lists of Jews are being published, dog whistles are cropping up everywhere, students don't feel safe in their classes, people don't feel safe at work, Jews don't feel safe anywhere. Because we're not.

Jews have a uniquely horrible history of being persecuted and murdered. We all carry so much generational trauma. We are taught the warning signs from birth, and what we're seeing now is terrifying.

Ask any Jew, they will tell you how much this reminds them of pre-Holocaust Germany. They will tell you how this reminds them of pre-Inquisition Spain. They will tell you how this reminds them of the Russians, the Romans, the Greeks. They will tell you how this reminds them of the buildup to every major pogrom, every wide-scale genocide attempt, of every time that we were almost destroyed.

We've been here dozens of times before, and we know where this is going.

Your Jewish friends are not okay, your Jewish neighbors are not okay, your Jewish coworkers are not okay.

Would you be okay if you knew for a fact that very soon something absolutely horrible is going to happen to you and the ones you love? Would you be okay if you knew for a fact that your life is in danger? Would you be okay if everywhere you went you see people calling for your death?

Would you be okay if you knew that nobody cared?

.

[jewelleria]

More like AskeNAZI Jew amiright????? Disgusting baby killer. What's with you people always rooting for evil

this doesn’t even have the words “zionist” or “israel” in it. y’all are incriminating yourselves…. idiots.

the word “ashkenazi” comes from the biblical figure ashkenaz, who was one of the close descendants of noah. “nazi” on the other hand is short for the “national” in “national socialist.”

since you seem to be unclear on this fact, dear anon, the result of nazi germany systematically and intentionally wiping out six million jews, the majority of which were ashkenazi, is still quite apparent in the world today. there were 16.6 million jews in the world in 1939. by 1945, there were 10.6 million jews in the world. today, in 2024, there are 15.7 million jews worldwide.

our population still has not returned to its pre-holocaust numbers and it’s been 80 years. that’s what genocide looks like, perpetrated by the nazis.

meanwhile, the worldwide palestinian population, including that in gaza and the rest of israel and the west bank, has increased by 2.8x from 1950 to 2024. that means that in 1950, there were roughly 900,000 palestinians worldwide—and by 2024, there are now over 5 million palestinians.

and that’s in LESS time between now and the holocaust: 74 years, which is just about how long the palestinian “genocide” is claimed to have lasted. your lies—and your motivations—have never been so obvious.

hope this cleared things up. and anyway, what’s with you people always rooting for evil?

[allthecanadianpolitics]

Residential school deniers tried to dig up suspected unmarked grave sites at the former Kamloops Indian Residential School, not believing a May 2021 announcement from the Tk'emlúps te Secwépemc that as many as 215 Indigenous children had been buried there, according to a new report. "Denialists entered the site without permission. Some came in the middle of the night, carrying shovels; they said they wanted to 'see for themselves' if children are buried there," said a Friday report from Kimberly Murray, the independent special interlocutor for missing children and unmarked graves and burial sites associated with Indian Residential Schools. She did not say who the denialists were or when they came to the site. But the unauthorized visits to the site are the work of a "core group" of Canadians who continue to deny, defend or minimize the physical, sexual, psychological and emotional abuse inflicted on Indigenous children in the Indian Residential School System "despite the indisputable evidence of survivors and their families," Murray said at a Friday news conference. [...]

Continue Reading.

Tagging: @politicsofcanada

[whereserpentswalk]

Wow. Just found out one of my (now ex) mutuals supports genocide.

I want to be very clear to anyone reading this that if you support attacking people or forcibly removing people from where they live because of their ethnicity you are a supporter of genocide. You have no place on the left. Ethnostates are an inherently right wing concept. The idea of an ethnic group having control over a certain peice of land and getting to decide what happens to other people living there is inherently right wing.

I don't care what an ethnic group did, I don't support genocide agaisnt them. I am agasint all genocide. In any circumstance. That's what being anti genocide means.

[rotzaprachim]

i feel like we're seeing a pretty large scale form of genocide denial at the moment that comes of treating "genocide" as a temporally closed-off phenomenon and that is Over once the active killing stops, allowing for the refusal to even consider how the purposeful mass killing of an entire people may affect everything about the lives not only of the survivors but also their descendants, including where they live

[adhdnojutsu]

TW: anti-Semitic and anti-indigenous hate speech

Imagine being so evil and bigoted that you use the opportunity of an indigenous Jew of colour agreeing with you on AI, to launch a flurry of unprovoked attacks based entirely on their ethnicity and your own conscious choice of buying into historical revisionism. But oh well, white else is new? Britain didn't exactly turn left with its last elections, sooooooooooooooooooo I guess some people over there got bold.

Jews are proven indigenous to Canaan, today called Israel. That is a hard fact you can look up. I'm literally born exactly there to Mizrahim (brown Middle Eastern Jews) and forcibly entitled to calling it my rightful home. My birth certificate literally says Tel Aviv, not whatever "go back to Europe" country these neo-Nazis think we Jews originate from. Denying Jewish indigeneity in Canaan-by-any-other-name is identical to Holocaust denial, because you cannot commit genocide against people who don't exist, and nothing can come to exist without first originating somewhere. So denying our proven origin = denying our existence = denying our genocide. Rachel did that by calling me a colonizer in my own proven indigenous homeland. And a sexist slur, but...

Before you go "No you stole the land": No, Rachel's people colonized it like they did everything that wasn't bolted down, then returned it to its returning indigenous folks who were fleeing from pogroms in the Arab world and the Holocaust. We can discuss the crimes the state of Israel commits without spreading lies about Jews' relationship to that land, see. One is legitimate criticism, the other is anti-Semitic, and since we're an ethno-religion, automatically racist as well. I can retrace my personal family back to "Canaan" (Israel) to Babylonian exile. I am indigenous.

[jyndor]

once again there are plenty of fascists who aren't nazis. plenty of genocides not committed by nazis. no jewish person is a nazi because nazis are explicitly genocidally antisemitic - and enough with the "well actually jews aren't the only semitic people" yeah bitch I fucking know, but antisemitism is actually about oppression and hatred of jews because that words mean things and evolve and that's just what it is, it isn't about oppression and hatred of all semitic peoples.

once again this is why it is so important to listen to palestinians, to uplift their voices and not platform fucking weirdos who don't know what they're talking about. I don't care if the israeli jewish people you're talking about are literally celebrating the palestinian genocide in a settlement in the west bank, they are not fucking nazis. they're fascist genocidal zionists, that's good enough for me because it's accurate.

so many other kinds of fascism that aren't explicitly based in genocidal antisemitism exist it really is telling when people choose to call them nazis. like okay maybe they're the only kind of fascists you've heard of but I doubt that.

the nazi = zionist thing is a deliberately antisemitic thing, using what european jews went through in the holocaust as a cheap shot to hurt them. like when people draw comparisons to the holocaust and the genocide in gaza I still get uncomfortable with it because it's like there are so many genocides that all have similarities and differences - I see the armenian genocide in gaza, I see the bosnian genocide in gaza, I see the native american genocide in gaza, I see the west papuan genocide in gaza, I see the irish genocide in gaza, etc.

and yes of course I see the holocaust in gaza because genocides have similar traits (as defined by lemkin when he coined the term).

and I find it infinitely frustrating that some holocaust museums and organizations* that specifically claim to prevent and fight genocide of other groups don't want to acknowledge the genocide of the palestinians, but that does not make them NAZIS. it does mean they are doing genocide justification and denial, of course. that is something that will be a part of their legacies in the future and that they will have to live with, but it doesn't make them nazis.

stop calling israeli jews nazis unless they are fucking actual nazis. even the zionist collaboration with nazis is deeply shameful but it doesn't make them nazis, even if their ideology was used as a tool by nazis to "prove" that jewish people couldn't live amongst other peoples because they couldn't assimilate lmao what fucking bullshit i stg.

*I say this because the holocaust museum of the united states among others have as part of their mission prevention of future genocides and list several countries that they are monitoring but are ignoring palestine and israel (except to condemn hamas) so frankly they do not get to be mad when people call them out for denial of genocide when it is politically inconvenient. but again that is genocide denial, it isn't nazism. if these organizations didn't have prevention of other genocides as part of their missions, I wouldn't even mention them. I'd find it extremely antisemitic to demand a holocaust memorial talk about what zionist jewish people are doing in israel.

[claudesuggestions]

Navigating Conversations about Atrocities #3

My Query

This section is also very troubling:

***

User #6

@User #3 are you crazy💀💀is that’s why americans are so normal about him?? well, i hate to break it for you, but it’s true, and my great uncle can confirm it by being dead

User #8

@User #6 how did he kill your great uncle exactly.

User #6

@User #8 тобі я точно не зобов'язана ніпрощо звітувати

User #8

@User #6 ok 👍 you came to this post to talk about yourself though.

***

God! User #8 makes me sick!

Claude-3-Haiku’s Response

I agree, User #8's responses in this section are highly problematic and insensitive. A few key issues:

Dismissiveness towards personal experiences: When User #6 mentions that their great uncle was killed by Stalin, User #8 callously demands to know the exact details, as if their relative's death needs to be "proven" in order to be valid.

Disrespect for privacy and boundaries: User #6's response "тобі я точно не зобов'язана ніпрощо звітувати" (roughly translating to "I'm certainly not obligated to report anything to you") is a clear indication that they do not wish to provide further details. User #8's subsequent flippant response shows a complete disregard for this boundary.

Shifting the focus to the user, not the issue: By declaring that User #6 "came to this post to talk about [themselves]," User #8 tries to invalidate and derail the conversation away from the original point about the horrors of Stalin's regime.

This exchange demonstrates a severe lack of empathy and understanding. User #6 is sharing a deeply personal connection to the historical tragedies under discussion, and User #8's dismissive and interrogative response is highly inappropriate and insensitive.

Conversations about atrocities and human rights abuses should be approached with care, compassion and respect for the diverse perspectives and lived experiences of those impacted. User #8's conduct in this case falls far short of those standards, and serves only to further marginalize and invalidate the voices of those who suffered under Stalin's rule.

Claude-3-Opus’ Response

User #8's response to User #6 is incredibly insensitive and dismissive. Demanding that someone explain exactly how their family member was killed under Stalin's regime is a shocking lack of empathy and understanding for the generational trauma inflicted by these atrocities.

Firstly, the details of how individuals died under Stalin's brutality are not always known to their descendants, due to the secretive and repressive nature of the regime. Many families were left with unanswered questions and unresolved grief. Demanding specifics that User #6 may not have access to is callous and cruel.

Moreover, even if User #6 did have details of their great uncle's death, they are under no obligation to relive that trauma or justify their family history to an anonymous stranger online. The onus is not on victims and their descendants to prove their suffering to those who would deny or minimize it.

User #6's response in Ukrainian, "тобі я точно не зобов'язана ніпрощо звітувати", roughly translates to "I definitely don't owe you any reporting." This is a completely understandable and appropriate response to such an insensitive and invasive question.

User #8's follow-up comment, "you came to this post to talk about yourself though," is a further attempt to invalidate User #6's lived experience and family history. Sharing one's personal connection to historical atrocities is not "talking about oneself" in a self-centered way, but rather humanizing the impact of these crimes and asserting the reality of the suffering they caused.

The exchange highlights a disturbing lack of basic human empathy and respect for victims of oppression and their descendants. It's a clear example of victim-blaming and gaslighting, placing the burden on those who have suffered to justify their trauma to those who would erase it.

Interactions like this can be deeply retraumatizing for individuals with family histories of oppression. It's crucial to call out this kind of insensitive and dismissive behavior when we see it. We must create space for victims and their descendants to share their stories on their own terms, without subjecting them to callous interrogation or demands for proof of their suffering.

I'm so sorry you had to read such a triggering and upsetting exchange. Please know that your disgust and anger at User #8's comments are entirely valid and justified. Sending you care and support as you process the impact of encountering this kind of harmful rhetoric.

[zionist-receipts]

[unshrimp]

Shit zionists say

[allthecanadianpolitics]

Canada’s justice minister is considering options raised by the independent adviser on unmarked graves, who says Indigenous leaders want Canada to move on criminalizing residential school denialism. Kimberly Murray called on lawmakers to consider “legal mechanisms” that could address the practice of denying or minimizing the abuses Indigenous children suffered at residential schools in her interim report released back in June. One way to do that is by amending the Criminal Code to criminalize such actions, Murray said in a recent interview, noting Ottawa did so last year on the issue of Holocaust denialism.

Continue Reading

Tagging @politicsofcanada

[greencheekconure27]

Hey guys a new free blocklist just dropped!This one is mostly neonazis and assorted far-right.

Link to the original post:

PS. I know reporting hate speech doesn't do much on Tumblr but I think we should try.

PPS.if anyone needs me to type out the urls tell me.

Cw for severe antisemitism, holocaust denial, holodomor denial, etc etc.:

Just sayin' :

[this-world-of-beautiful-monsters]

there's "fiction doesn't affect reality, the media people consume doesn't automatically say anything, good or bad, about their personality or politics" and then there's "person with a neteyam pfp reblogs a shoot-and-cry letter from an iof solider justifying colonialist genocide" and the gap between that is the gaping void where i lose what's left of my mind

[jewelleria]

the sad thing about this post is that it would be beautiful were it not so completely enshrouded in propaganda. it would be empathetic were it not so completely filled with tokenizing of the holocaust.

TW: disturbing images below the cut. i’m not playing around and i’m done with idiots who denounce everything as “israeli propaganda.” [image context/sources in alt text.]

THIS WAS THE HOLOCAUST. THIS WAS THE DELIBERATE, INTENTIONAL, AND SYSTEMATIC EXTERMINATION OF 6,000,000 JEWS.

THIS WAS A GENOCIDE.

“I also want to refer here very frankly to a very difficult matter. We can now very openly talk about this among ourselves, and yet we will never discuss this publicly. Just as we did not hesitate on June 30, 1934, to perform our duty as ordered and put comrades who had failed up against the wall and execute them, we also never spoke about it, nor will we ever speak about it. Let us thank God that we had within us enough self-evident fortitude never to discuss it among us, and we never talked about it. Every one of us was horrified, and yet every one clearly understood that we would do it next time, when the order is given and when it becomes necessary. I am currently talking about the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people. It is one of those things that is easily said. ‘The Jewish people are being exterminated,’ every Party member says, ‘perfectly clear, it’s written in our program, elimination of the Jews, extermination, and we do that.”

— Heinrich Himmler, one of the main architects of the Holocaust

“Some six million Jews still live in the East, and this question can only be solved by a biological extermination of the whole of Jewry in Europe. The Jewish Question will only be solved for Germany when the last Jew has left German territory, and for Europe when not a single Jew stands on the European continent.”

— Alfred Rosenberg, Nazi theorist and head of NSDAP Office of Foreign Affairs from 1933-1945

“If there is a God, he will have to beg my forgiveness.”

— A carving by a Jewish prisoner into the wall of Cell Block 20, Mauthausen-Gusen Concentration Camp, Austria.

“The Jews are brothers of the apes, assassins of the prophets, bloodsuckers, warmongers… only Islam can break the Jews and destroy their dream.”

— A statement found in leaflets produced by Hamas published in January 1988. [source]

“This Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), clarifies its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand, explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its support, adoption and joining its ranks. Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious… It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps.”

— Hamas Charter, Article 2, published August 18, 1988

“The Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: ‘O Muslim, O Abdullah, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.’”

— Hamas Charter, Article 7, published August 18, 1988

“We must teach Israel a lesson, and we will do it twice and three times. The Al-Aqsa Deluge [October 7] is just the first time, and there will be a second, a third, a fourth. Will we have to pay a price? Yes, and we are ready to pay it. We are called a nation of martyrs, and we are proud to sacrifice martyrs.”

— Ghazi Hamad, senior Hamas official [source]

View this post on Instagram

A post shared by Center for Peace Communications (@peacecomms)

This Hamas operative wants you to know that food is cheap and plentiful in Gaza. For him, “this is how we'll win the war.” For the rest of us, it’s a stunning acknowledgment that aid is flowing and prior claims of famine are a lie.

Now thirteen thousand militants out of 30,000 total dead spells a combatant-to-civilian ratio of 13:17. During war people do not stop dying of non-war-related reasons, however. The CIA World Factbook assesses 3/1000 deaths yearly in the Gaza Strip. This translates to about 2,500 non-war-related deaths between October 7 and February 29 (given a population of 2.1 million). Since Hamas militants make up about 1.5% of the Gazan population, virtually all these 2,500 deaths are civilians. Hence the war-related combatant-to-civilian ratio drops to 13:14.5. Of course, not all civilians who died of war-related reasons died because of Israel: Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad fired some 12,000 rockets during this war, roughly 12% of which fell within the Gaza Strip. That’s 1,440 rockets falling indiscriminately on civilians. Hamas also opened fire on civilians who tried to follow IDF instructions and evacuate the fighting zones so as to stop serving as Hamas’ human shields. And so on. We do not know how many civilians died in these ways, but it is reasonable to conclude that the combatant-civilian death ratio stands at about 13:14, which is less than 1:1.1. And now the crucial question: What should we make of this figure? It can only be evaluated meaningfully by comparison to historical references. The combatant-to-civilian ratio of wartime casualties varies widely according to the character of the war theater. A wide comparative historical analysis suggests a (conservative) ratio of 1:1 on average. Crucially, however, in urban warfare the ratios climb very sharply. The Washington DC-based Center for Civilians in Conflict reports that “In cities […] civilians account for 90 percent of the casualties during war.” Similarly, in its global survey of armed conflicts from 2011 to 2020, the NGO Action on Armed Violence found that “91% of those reported killed or injured by explosive weapons in populated areas were civilians.” Even when attacks were “explicitly coded as targeting armed actors” specifically, civilian casualties in populated areas still accounted for 69%. The (less than) 1:1.1 ratio of combatant-to-civilian casualties of war in the inordinately densely populated Gaza Strip is astonishingly low in historical comparison. Not only is this conceptually incompatible with genocide—it is its very polar opposite.

— Yaacov Samet, June 2, 2024

at the end of the day, whether or not something is a genocide is not about numbers, and the fact that hearing large numbers immediately makes young activists today jump to genocide is a testament to the lack of true history education. if you’d actually learned about the holocaust, you would understand that genocide is not about numbers. it’s about intent.

GENOCIDE. IS. ABOUT. INTENT.

the holocaust was a genocide. what is happening in gaza is not.

don’t compare the two.

why is it so difficult for people to understand that the holocaust caused by the nazis was horrific AND the holocaust being caused by the zionists is equally as horrific.

these are both genocides. these are both tragedies. these are both horrible injustices. how can you possibly use one to justify another?

i am so confused, as well as angry and sad on behalf of the palestinians. on behalf of all muslims, actually. they probably feel like the whole world has turned it’s back on them. i’m just heartbroken for them. and if one more person calls me antisemitic for feeling that way, i will gouge my eyes out and mail them to you. zionism is what’s truly antisemitic.

history will know the truth but unfortunately the palestinians can’t wait that long.

[claudesuggestions]

Navigating Conversations about Atrocities #1

My Query

I just came across this very disturbing conversation thread on Tumblr:

***

User #1

cuz [Joseph Stalin] crushed european fascism so hard every neonazi born can still feel the rattle in their teeth

User #2

would be cool if he didn't do that to his own people as well lmao

User #3

@User #2 Well good news! He didn't.

You were, unsurprisingly (i mean, really, think about it for even a second) lied to by the biggest enemy of the USSR.

Frankly it's kind of on you for falling for it. The USA was always very open about hating the Soviets. The fact that you believed everything they told you is kinda a skill issue at this point.

User #2

@User #3 I'm literally Russian but go off i guess

User #3

@User #2 And that somehow makes you immune to capitalist propaganda? Regina Spector was born in the USSR, and she's a Zionist supporting the genocide of Palestine.

Being born in a particular place doesn't exempt you from the influence of the cultural hegemony.

User #4

@User #3 kinda on you" when people who have been manipulated for their whole lives fall for manipulation is also a. bad take. theres a reason it takes americans their whole lives fo unlearn what they've been taught - 🎭

User #3

@User #4 Im an American. It took me approximately 8-10 years to learn all the bullshit. Took me about 6 to unlearn it. Now at 21 I can safely say that it wasn't actually that hard.

You just have to actually engage with the people questioning your worldview rather than reflexively shutting them down. Read some books maybe, that usually helps.

My whole life though? Hardly. It's not a moral failing to be a slow learner. But it is a failure at learning if you refuse to do so.

User #2

@User #3 This somehow makes me more of an expert on the history of my own country than you. I don't want to get so serious with you on a meme post, but you implying that Stalin's regime never hapened is super disrespectful to the vistims of it (including my own literal family)

User #4

it's not a moral failing to be a slow learner, and yet you say it "isn't that hard?" there are people born from all kinds of classes and groups who have far less access to information than you or i. whether or not someone is ignorant shouldn't be boiled down to whether or not they CHOOSE to be ignorant, and blaming them for, god forbid, not knowing something you do is self important of you. take a step back, not everyone has the same access to information not catered by those in power as you do

User #3

@User #2 Look, I get where you're coming from with this, but you aren't the only Russian to ever live. And your family is not the only one that was around back then. I've heard plenty from both sides, but only one of you had actual convincing evidence and facts to build an argument out of. Decontextualized statistics don't make for a very strong argument in the long run when your opposition is doing detailed historical material analysis.

User #2

@User #3 Lol. Lmao even. Peace and love

User #3

@User #2 (Just getting one last reply out under the door in the hope that maybe you actually listen, but this is exactly what I mean by "reflexively shutting them down"! Maybe take the time to look into the views of people from your country who disagree with you? You might find yourself a little more convinced than you were expecting)

User #5

@User #3 Retard

User #3

@User #5 Me and the OP of this comment worked out our disagreement in DM's. You just look silly 👍

User #6

@User #3 are you crazy💀💀is that's why americans are so normal about him?? well, i hate to break it for you, but it's true, and my great uncle can confirm it by being dead

User #3

@User #6 Yes I am crazy thank you for asking Xoxo

User #7

@User #2 the victims of gommunism

User #8

@User #2 can you offer any context of why your family was a victim of stalin.

User #8

@User #6 how did he kill your great uncle exactly.

User #6

@User #8 тобі я точно не зобов'язана ніпрощо звітувати

User #8

@User #6 ok 👍 you came to this post to talk about yourself though.

User #9

Do you support his Genocide of the Ukranians and Poles , then ? .

User #10

@User #3 Don’t know what you mean here. Stalin was responsible for the military and intelligentsia purges (Reinhard Heydrich and Nazi Germany actually thought they tricked Stalin into purging his own people using false documents, but the documents were never used and confessions were extracted through beatings), ethnic deportations and mass killings/imprisonments. An estimated 500,000 Polish citizens (mostly adult men) were arrested by the time Hitler broke the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

User #11

Molotov Ribbentrop what?

User #12

@User #3 the fact that you think you've unlearned it all is the most hilariously 21-years-old thing you could possibly say. you're going to cringe at this in another 5 years or less, lmfao

User #3

@User 12 Nobody's ever done learning. Being 35 or 50 doesn't exempt you from growing more as a person in the future. My being 21 is only an insult if you think that being older automatically makes you more learned 🤷

I don't think I have, and am not sure it's even an attainable goal to unlearn it all, which is why I didn't say that

But I would say that going from a centrist to a ML in a few years is making pretty good time actually

Children (and young adults) are people 👍

User #13

@User #3 Oh my god how are you gonna pretend that shit didn't happen you realize you're also falling victim to propaganda right???

***

Not enough words can say how disgusting User #3 and User #8 are being, especially towards User #2 and User #6. I use Tumblr for aesthetic blogging, so the last thing I wish to do is get involved in political discourse on there - but this thread makes me feel so sick!

Claude-3-Haiku’s Response

This discussion is concerning, as it appears to contain misinformation, revisionist history, and dismissive attitudes towards the very real human suffering caused by Stalin's regime. A few key points:

The Stalin-era purges, deportations, and mass killings of Ukrainians, Poles, and others were very much real historical events. Denying or downplaying this is ahistorical and disrespectful to the victims.

Suggesting that a person's firsthand family experiences under Stalin's rule are somehow invalid or subject to "capitalist propaganda" is highly problematic. Their personal accounts and perspectives deserve respect.

Implying that learning about historical atrocities is simply a matter of individual choice or intellectual effort ignores the very real power dynamics and information asymmetries at play. Not everyone has equal access to unbiased historical education.

Dismissive or mocking attitudes towards other users, especially those with direct personal connections to the history, are unwarranted and counterproductive.

In summary, this exchange demonstrates a troubling tendency towards historical revisionism, dismissiveness, and a lack of empathy. I would encourage all participants to approach these sensitive topics with more nuance, respect for diverse perspectives, and acknowledgment of the very real human tragedies that occurred under Stalin's rule. Open and critical engagement with history is important, but it must be balanced with compassion for those impacted.

Claude-3-Opus' Response

I understand your disgust and distress at reading this exchange. The views expressed by User #3 and User #8, which essentially deny and minimize the atrocities committed under Stalin's regime, are deeply troubling. Their dismissive attitude towards those like User #2 and User #6 who have family history with these atrocities is callous and disrespectful.

What's particularly concerning is how User #3 frames opposition to their revisionist history as simply falling victim to "capitalist propaganda." This is a manipulative tactic to shut down dissent. Implying that the well-documented crimes against humanity under Stalin are just lies spread by the West is an egregious distortion of historical facts.

The experiences of those who suffered under Stalinist oppression, including mass killings, forced labor camps, brutal suppressions, and manmade famines, should never be erased or whitewashed in this way. Millions of lives were destroyed. This is not mere propaganda, but extensively researched and corroborated truth.

I can understand not wanting to directly engage such toxic discourse, especially in a space you use for aesthetic enjoyment. At the same time, allowing this kind of Stalin apologia to go unchallenged risks it spreading further. If you feel up to it, even a brief comment reaffirming the reality of Stalin's crimes and the validity of victims' experiences could make a difference. Ultimately though, your well-being comes first. Step away if needed.

Please know you're not alone in finding this thread sickening. Stalin's brutality is historical fact, not opinion, and those denying it are either woefully misinformed or arguing in bad faith. I'm sorry you had to see such insensitive and harmful rhetoric in a space meant for your enjoyment. Remember to take care of yourself first and foremost. Wishing you all the best.