#tw: genocide denial

[claudesuggestions]

Navigating Conversations about Atrocities #2

My Query

Let's address this particular section of the conversation:

***

User #1

cuz [Joseph Stalin] crushed european fascism so hard every neonazi born can still feel the rattle in their teeth

User #2

would be cool if he didn’t do that to his own people as well lmao

User #3

@User #2 Well good news! He didn’t.

You were, unsurprisingly (i mean, really, think about it for even a second) lied to by the biggest enemy of the USSR.

Frankly it’s kind of on you for falling for it. The USA was always very open about hating the Soviets. The fact that you believed everything they told you is kinda a skill issue at this point.

User #2

@User #3 I’m literally Russian but go off i guess

User #3

@User #2 And that somehow makes you immune to capitalist propaganda? Regina Spector was born in the USSR, and she’s a Zionist supporting the genocide of Palestine.

Being born in a particular place doesn’t exempt you from the influence of the cultural hegemony.

***

Specifically User #3's fallacious invocation of Regina Spektor.

Claude-3-Haiku’s Response

The invocation of Regina Spektor by User #3 as an example of a Russian-born person who has been influenced by "capitalist propaganda" is a highly flawed and misleading argument. There are several key issues with this line of reasoning:

Conflating political views with national origin: Just because someone is born in a certain country does not automatically make them an authority on, or immune to, the historical atrocities committed by that country's government. People can and do form their own political views independent of their birthplace.

Misrepresenting Spektor's political stance: Labeling Spektor as a "Zionist supporting the genocide of Palestine" is a gross mischaracterization. Spektor has not publicly expressed support for the genocide of Palestinians, and her political views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are likely more nuanced than this simplistic framing.

Fallacious extrapolation: Using a single example of a Russian-born individual (Spektor) to generalize about the ability of all Russians to be influenced by "capitalist propaganda" is a logical fallacy. One anecdotal case does not prove a broader trend.

Dismissive attitude towards personal experiences: By implying that User #2's firsthand family experiences under Stalin's regime are invalid due to supposed "capitalist propaganda," User #3 is exhibiting a highly problematic and insensitive dismissal of lived experiences.

In summary, User #3's invocation of Regina Spektor is a flawed and inappropriate attempt to undermine the credibility of User #2's perspective. It relies on fallacious reasoning, misrepresentation of facts, and a troubling disregard for the personal histories and lived experiences of those impacted by Stalin's atrocities. A more constructive and empathetic approach would acknowledge the complexities of these issues and the importance of respecting diverse viewpoints, rather than resorting to simplistic generalizations and baseless accusations.

Claude-3-Opus’ Response

User #3's invocation of Regina Spektor in this context is problematic for several reasons:

False equivalence: User #3 is equating Spektor's views on Israel-Palestine with the well-documented historical reality of Stalin's crimes against his own people. These are two vastly different issues with different levels of historical consensus. Spektor's political stance, whether one agrees with it or not, does not negate the extensively researched and corroborated evidence of Stalin's atrocities.

Ad hominem attack: By bringing up Spektor, User #3 is attempting to discredit User #2's perspective based on an unrelated individual's views rather than addressing the substance of their argument. This is a classic ad hominem fallacy, attacking the person rather than engaging with their point.

Non sequitur: Spektor's place of birth and her views on a separate geopolitical issue have no logical bearing on the veracity of Stalin's crimes. User #3 is introducing an irrelevant point to deflect from the historical facts being discussed.

False dichotomy: User #3 is presenting a false choice between either being immune to propaganda or believing everything one is told. In reality, individuals can critically engage with information from various sources and come to evidence-based conclusions. Acknowledging Stalin's atrocities does not mean uncritically accepting all Western narratives.

Burden of proof: User #3 is placing the burden of proof on User #2 to disprove their claim, rather than substantiating their own assertion that Stalin's crimes are merely capitalist propaganda. The overwhelming historical evidence of these crimes places the burden of proof on those seeking to deny or minimize them.

User #3's argument here is a clear example of using fallacious reasoning to dismiss the lived experiences and generational trauma of those who suffered under Stalin's regime. It's a manipulative tactic to shut down dissent and deflect from the historical record.

Spektor's views, whatever they may be, do not change the facts of Stalin's brutality. Injustices and atrocities can and do occur in different contexts; acknowledging one does not negate the others. User #3 is engaging in whataboutism rather than addressing the substance of the discussion.

It's important to call out these fallacious arguments and reaffirm the historical truth. Stalin's crimes against his own people, including mass killings, forced labor, and man-made famines, are not matters of opinion or propaganda. They are extensively documented facts that should never be minimized or denied, regardless of one's political leanings or place of birth.

[jewish-vents]

something that I don't think non-jews realize is just how fucking terrified all Jews have been ever since the world stopped pretending it cared about us.

We always felt othered, we always were persecuted, we've always been cautious, we've always been afraid, we've always known that at the end of the day the only people we can truly trust is each other. We just were hopeful that maybe this time we didn't have to be so afraid of other people.

But after October 7th, the world stopped pretending to care about Jews, they stopped acting like they don't see us as vermin, they've stopped treating us as human.

The Holocaust deniers are out in full force, there are Nazis everywhere, the conspiracy theories are gaining traction, the rates of antisemitic attacks have skyrocketed, lists of Jews are being published, dog whistles are cropping up everywhere, students don't feel safe in their classes, people don't feel safe at work, Jews don't feel safe anywhere. Because we're not.

Jews have a uniquely horrible history of being persecuted and murdered. We all carry so much generational trauma. We are taught the warning signs from birth, and what we're seeing now is terrifying.

Ask any Jew, they will tell you how much this reminds them of pre-Holocaust Germany. They will tell you how this reminds them of pre-Inquisition Spain. They will tell you how this reminds them of the Russians, the Romans, the Greeks. They will tell you how this reminds them of the buildup to every major pogrom, every wide-scale genocide attempt, of every time that we were almost destroyed.

We've been here dozens of times before, and we know where this is going.

Your Jewish friends are not okay, your Jewish neighbors are not okay, your Jewish coworkers are not okay.

Would you be okay if you knew for a fact that very soon something absolutely horrible is going to happen to you and the ones you love? Would you be okay if you knew for a fact that your life is in danger? Would you be okay if everywhere you went you see people calling for your death?

Would you be okay if you knew that nobody cared?

.

[jewelleria]

More like AskeNAZI Jew amiright????? Disgusting baby killer. What's with you people always rooting for evil

this doesn’t even have the words “zionist” or “israel” in it. y’all are incriminating yourselves…. idiots.

the word “ashkenazi” comes from the biblical figure ashkenaz, who was one of the close descendants of noah. “nazi” on the other hand is short for the “national” in “national socialist.”

since you seem to be unclear on this fact, dear anon, the result of nazi germany systematically and intentionally wiping out six million jews, the majority of which were ashkenazi, is still quite apparent in the world today. there were 16.6 million jews in the world in 1939. by 1945, there were 10.6 million jews in the world. today, in 2024, there are 15.7 million jews worldwide.

our population still has not returned to its pre-holocaust numbers and it’s been 80 years. that’s what genocide looks like, perpetrated by the nazis.

meanwhile, the worldwide palestinian population, including that in gaza and the rest of israel and the west bank, has increased by 2.8x from 1950 to 2024. that means that in 1950, there were roughly 900,000 palestinians worldwide—and by 2024, there are now over 5 million palestinians.

and that’s in LESS time between now and the holocaust: 74 years, which is just about how long the palestinian “genocide” is claimed to have lasted. your lies—and your motivations—have never been so obvious.

hope this cleared things up. and anyway, what’s with you people always rooting for evil?

[allthecanadianpolitics]

Residential school deniers tried to dig up suspected unmarked grave sites at the former Kamloops Indian Residential School, not believing a May 2021 announcement from the Tk'emlúps te Secwépemc that as many as 215 Indigenous children had been buried there, according to a new report. "Denialists entered the site without permission. Some came in the middle of the night, carrying shovels; they said they wanted to 'see for themselves' if children are buried there," said a Friday report from Kimberly Murray, the independent special interlocutor for missing children and unmarked graves and burial sites associated with Indian Residential Schools. She did not say who the denialists were or when they came to the site. But the unauthorized visits to the site are the work of a "core group" of Canadians who continue to deny, defend or minimize the physical, sexual, psychological and emotional abuse inflicted on Indigenous children in the Indian Residential School System "despite the indisputable evidence of survivors and their families," Murray said at a Friday news conference. [...]

Continue Reading.

Tagging: @politicsofcanada

[whereserpentswalk]

Wow. Just found out one of my (now ex) mutuals supports genocide.

I want to be very clear to anyone reading this that if you support attacking people or forcibly removing people from where they live because of their ethnicity you are a supporter of genocide. You have no place on the left. Ethnostates are an inherently right wing concept. The idea of an ethnic group having control over a certain peice of land and getting to decide what happens to other people living there is inherently right wing.

I don't care what an ethnic group did, I don't support genocide agaisnt them. I am agasint all genocide. In any circumstance. That's what being anti genocide means.

[spot-the-antisemitism]

https://www.tumblr.com/muppet-sex/758722083506241536?source=share

Calling a jewish woman criticizing a male orthodox bogdim a "zionist white woman using her tears"

OH no it's ALL the usual suspects, Ash, Muppet-Sex and comsomolka have their little circle jerk echo chamber

this is just misogyny and tokenism

this Orthodox "Jew" is a holocaust denier and part of Nehui Karta but sure suddenly Jews are good if they deny the holocaust let's ignore what Karta says about gentiles (hint: they're a rapture cult). She's likely screaming at him because he's part of a misogynistic holocaust denying rapture cult, not because he supports the hypothetical genocide of all Israelis (which he totally does btw)

Hamasniks and Karta collaborating is a real "which leopard will eat which leopard's face first?" situation

but sure tankies are anti-genocide (yet deny the holocaust and the holodomor) are for freedom (yet silence and kill their opponents like the terrorists and the dictators they bootlick) and love women (despite raping, killing and mocking those they can't tokenize)

[satyrradio]

currently at home from school because a right-wing teacher of mine decided to literally make up a story about me in an attempt to get me suspended.

I probably should've spoken up sooner. he's misgendered me, mocked me, but this is the first time he's tried to get me in trouble because he dislikes me.

my mom is pissed. i'm currently getting testimonies from my friends of the shit he's done to them so we can take it to the school board. From him only punishing my friend, a black woman, for doing something everyone else was doing, saying Rosa Parks was just "too tired to get off the bus", denying the genocide in Gaza, etc.

yea. idk how to conclude this post. hope he gets fired. btw, his class isn't even about history or politics; it's a fucking literature class.

[rotzaprachim]

i feel like we're seeing a pretty large scale form of genocide denial at the moment that comes of treating "genocide" as a temporally closed-off phenomenon and that is Over once the active killing stops, allowing for the refusal to even consider how the purposeful mass killing of an entire people may affect everything about the lives not only of the survivors but also their descendants, including where they live

[adhdnojutsu]

TW: anti-Semitic and anti-indigenous hate speech

Imagine being so evil and bigoted that you use the opportunity of an indigenous Jew of colour agreeing with you on AI, to launch a flurry of unprovoked attacks based entirely on their ethnicity and your own conscious choice of buying into historical revisionism. But oh well, white else is new? Britain didn't exactly turn left with its last elections, sooooooooooooooooooo I guess some people over there got bold.

Jews are proven indigenous to Canaan, today called Israel. That is a hard fact you can look up. I'm literally born exactly there to Mizrahim (brown Middle Eastern Jews) and forcibly entitled to calling it my rightful home. My birth certificate literally says Tel Aviv, not whatever "go back to Europe" country these neo-Nazis think we Jews originate from. Denying Jewish indigeneity in Canaan-by-any-other-name is identical to Holocaust denial, because you cannot commit genocide against people who don't exist, and nothing can come to exist without first originating somewhere. So denying our proven origin = denying our existence = denying our genocide. Rachel did that by calling me a colonizer in my own proven indigenous homeland. And a sexist slur, but...

Before you go "No you stole the land": No, Rachel's people colonized it like they did everything that wasn't bolted down, then returned it to its returning indigenous folks who were fleeing from pogroms in the Arab world and the Holocaust. We can discuss the crimes the state of Israel commits without spreading lies about Jews' relationship to that land, see. One is legitimate criticism, the other is anti-Semitic, and since we're an ethno-religion, automatically racist as well. I can retrace my personal family back to "Canaan" (Israel) to Babylonian exile. I am indigenous.

[claudesuggestions]

Navigating Conversations about Atrocities #3

My Query

This section is also very troubling:

***

User #6

@User #3 are you crazy💀💀is that’s why americans are so normal about him?? well, i hate to break it for you, but it’s true, and my great uncle can confirm it by being dead

User #8

@User #6 how did he kill your great uncle exactly.

User #6

@User #8 тобі я точно не зобов'язана ніпрощо звітувати

User #8

@User #6 ok 👍 you came to this post to talk about yourself though.

***

God! User #8 makes me sick!

Claude-3-Haiku’s Response

I agree, User #8's responses in this section are highly problematic and insensitive. A few key issues:

Dismissiveness towards personal experiences: When User #6 mentions that their great uncle was killed by Stalin, User #8 callously demands to know the exact details, as if their relative's death needs to be "proven" in order to be valid.

Disrespect for privacy and boundaries: User #6's response "тобі я точно не зобов'язана ніпрощо звітувати" (roughly translating to "I'm certainly not obligated to report anything to you") is a clear indication that they do not wish to provide further details. User #8's subsequent flippant response shows a complete disregard for this boundary.

Shifting the focus to the user, not the issue: By declaring that User #6 "came to this post to talk about [themselves]," User #8 tries to invalidate and derail the conversation away from the original point about the horrors of Stalin's regime.

This exchange demonstrates a severe lack of empathy and understanding. User #6 is sharing a deeply personal connection to the historical tragedies under discussion, and User #8's dismissive and interrogative response is highly inappropriate and insensitive.

Conversations about atrocities and human rights abuses should be approached with care, compassion and respect for the diverse perspectives and lived experiences of those impacted. User #8's conduct in this case falls far short of those standards, and serves only to further marginalize and invalidate the voices of those who suffered under Stalin's rule.

Claude-3-Opus’ Response

User #8's response to User #6 is incredibly insensitive and dismissive. Demanding that someone explain exactly how their family member was killed under Stalin's regime is a shocking lack of empathy and understanding for the generational trauma inflicted by these atrocities.

Firstly, the details of how individuals died under Stalin's brutality are not always known to their descendants, due to the secretive and repressive nature of the regime. Many families were left with unanswered questions and unresolved grief. Demanding specifics that User #6 may not have access to is callous and cruel.

Moreover, even if User #6 did have details of their great uncle's death, they are under no obligation to relive that trauma or justify their family history to an anonymous stranger online. The onus is not on victims and their descendants to prove their suffering to those who would deny or minimize it.

User #6's response in Ukrainian, "тобі я точно не зобов'язана ніпрощо звітувати", roughly translates to "I definitely don't owe you any reporting." This is a completely understandable and appropriate response to such an insensitive and invasive question.

User #8's follow-up comment, "you came to this post to talk about yourself though," is a further attempt to invalidate User #6's lived experience and family history. Sharing one's personal connection to historical atrocities is not "talking about oneself" in a self-centered way, but rather humanizing the impact of these crimes and asserting the reality of the suffering they caused.

The exchange highlights a disturbing lack of basic human empathy and respect for victims of oppression and their descendants. It's a clear example of victim-blaming and gaslighting, placing the burden on those who have suffered to justify their trauma to those who would erase it.

Interactions like this can be deeply retraumatizing for individuals with family histories of oppression. It's crucial to call out this kind of insensitive and dismissive behavior when we see it. We must create space for victims and their descendants to share their stories on their own terms, without subjecting them to callous interrogation or demands for proof of their suffering.

I'm so sorry you had to read such a triggering and upsetting exchange. Please know that your disgust and anger at User #8's comments are entirely valid and justified. Sending you care and support as you process the impact of encountering this kind of harmful rhetoric.

[jyndor]

once again there are plenty of fascists who aren't nazis. plenty of genocides not committed by nazis. no jewish person is a nazi because nazis are explicitly genocidally antisemitic - and enough with the "well actually jews aren't the only semitic people" yeah bitch I fucking know, but antisemitism is actually about oppression and hatred of jews because that words mean things and evolve and that's just what it is, it isn't about oppression and hatred of all semitic peoples.

once again this is why it is so important to listen to palestinians, to uplift their voices and not platform fucking weirdos who don't know what they're talking about. I don't care if the israeli jewish people you're talking about are literally celebrating the palestinian genocide in a settlement in the west bank, they are not fucking nazis. they're fascist genocidal zionists, that's good enough for me because it's accurate.

so many other kinds of fascism that aren't explicitly based in genocidal antisemitism exist it really is telling when people choose to call them nazis. like okay maybe they're the only kind of fascists you've heard of but I doubt that.

the nazi = zionist thing is a deliberately antisemitic thing, using what european jews went through in the holocaust as a cheap shot to hurt them. like when people draw comparisons to the holocaust and the genocide in gaza I still get uncomfortable with it because it's like there are so many genocides that all have similarities and differences - I see the armenian genocide in gaza, I see the bosnian genocide in gaza, I see the native american genocide in gaza, I see the west papuan genocide in gaza, I see the irish genocide in gaza, etc.

and yes of course I see the holocaust in gaza because genocides have similar traits (as defined by lemkin when he coined the term).

and I find it infinitely frustrating that some holocaust museums and organizations* that specifically claim to prevent and fight genocide of other groups don't want to acknowledge the genocide of the palestinians, but that does not make them NAZIS. it does mean they are doing genocide justification and denial, of course. that is something that will be a part of their legacies in the future and that they will have to live with, but it doesn't make them nazis.

stop calling israeli jews nazis unless they are fucking actual nazis. even the zionist collaboration with nazis is deeply shameful but it doesn't make them nazis, even if their ideology was used as a tool by nazis to "prove" that jewish people couldn't live amongst other peoples because they couldn't assimilate lmao what fucking bullshit i stg.

*I say this because the holocaust museum of the united states among others have as part of their mission prevention of future genocides and list several countries that they are monitoring but are ignoring palestine and israel (except to condemn hamas) so frankly they do not get to be mad when people call them out for denial of genocide when it is politically inconvenient. but again that is genocide denial, it isn't nazism. if these organizations didn't have prevention of other genocides as part of their missions, I wouldn't even mention them. I'd find it extremely antisemitic to demand a holocaust memorial talk about what zionist jewish people are doing in israel.

[zionist-receipts]

[allthecanadianpolitics]

Canada’s justice minister is considering options raised by the independent adviser on unmarked graves, who says Indigenous leaders want Canada to move on criminalizing residential school denialism. Kimberly Murray called on lawmakers to consider “legal mechanisms” that could address the practice of denying or minimizing the abuses Indigenous children suffered at residential schools in her interim report released back in June. One way to do that is by amending the Criminal Code to criminalize such actions, Murray said in a recent interview, noting Ottawa did so last year on the issue of Holocaust denialism.

Continue Reading

Tagging @politicsofcanada

[unshrimp]

Shit zionists say

[politicalblade]

idf soldiers literally went on air to defend their actions and this AIPAC whore decided to say that it was disinformation.

He's a piece of shit, and he should be voted out of office. And then subject to the actions that he claims are "disinformation"

[bagofbonesmp3]

What did the Croatian nt do? Genuinely curious.

x x x