#toddler transcription

[yeoldenews]

A wonderful example of what I refer to as "toddler transcription" - where parents write down their small child's exact words, tangents and all.

(source: The Zanesville (OH) Signal, December 18, 1905.)

[daretolovemyrambling]

ARCANE: unreliable narrators (Silco and Vander focused) PART 1

I haven't really been in this tag/fandom before the season 2 finale, but can we talk about how both Vander and Silco are unreliable narrators? Especially when it comes to their flashback scenes?

I don't get why i've seen so many take the flashbacks we got in the show at face value. The show makes clear time and time again that when we get a flashback from the point of view of a single character, they are an unreliable narrator.

some examples of other characters:

on the left: biased/not the reality (character's memory/pov) vs on the right: unbiased/reality (our, the viewers, pov)

I'm going to use video clips and transcripts of the memories because I can't just gif like 5 minutes of scenes. Since you can only have one video per post, I will have to post this in several parts.

Let's start with Warwick's memories from 2x5:

We see that the memory of Warwick in episode 2x5 is all over the place, memories from the past 15-20 years come flooding back in bits and pieces. 

In the first moment of this scene we see Warwick running through the mines, then we see Singed who has experimented on him, we see the Monkey Toy aggressively banging it's cymbals against each other, then we see a younger looking Silco about to swing something at an enforcer, for a split second the Monkey's face replaces Silco's, we see that it was a bottle bomb and set that enforcer on fire.

I think this represents Silco's almost obsessive nature when it came to their fight for Zaun's freedom, the Monkey overwhelms you with it's loud noise the same way Silco likely overwhelmed Vander with his ruthless actions.

the next scene, Silco looks horrified at Vander and we cut to Vander drowning Silco, then back to the moment Vander (and likely Silco) discover Felicia's lifeless body. 

We see a moment of Vander punching an enforcer with his gauntlets from 1x1, cut to the Monkey's face again, then we see Warwick's perspective of the prison fight with the enforcers in 2x4 (we see him choke one of them out with his claws) and slashing several more of them brutally.

Finally, we cut back to the mines were he hallucinates a toddler-aged Powder crying her little eyes out (it looks like something that actually happened. I think this might be a moment shortly after he takes in the girls. Powder looks like she just woke up from a nightmare, her body language is shy and scared). He softly wipes the tears away with his left hand (same hand he used to choke Silco and an enforcer just a few moments earlier) 

Powder's face turns into Jinx and then pre-teen Powder and we follow Powder's lifeless gaze to Felicia dancing at the Jukebox, before finally, Vander images a Silco shortly after the murder attempt, this Silco is still dripping wet from the lake (and he uses his signature glass) but smiles at Vander invitingly (likely a moment that actually happend but was warped by the many nightmares Vander likely had about what he did).

The idea that Silco escalated the Bridge Riot and thus caused the death of many Zaunites, including Felicia and Connol, is definitely supported by this short memory, but it's *not* the only way you can read the scene. Vander's memories are evidently completely scrambled, he is remembering the worst moments of his life all at once.

It's just as valid to say that Silco was not there during the Bridge Scene in season 1 episode 1 as to say that he was!

That is what makes unreliable narrators so interesting, we can make assumptions to what happend, but if we don't get an unbiased view at a scene, we don't know for sure if it happend the way the narrator imagined it.

Examples where we have unbiased flashbacks would be flashbacks like Mel's childhood in 1x8 and the Bar scene with Felicia in 2x5. In these scenes we don't follow the pov of one character, of course information is still omitted from us to an extend, but we can make our own assumption instead of seeing the biased/narrow pov of a single character.

[sgiandubh]

On sightings

It's that blessed time of the year, with eggnog and spice galore?

Anons are never unemployed for long, because - as I always say - the idiots' mother is always pregnant.

To counter Park Anon, perhaps, another casual fan (relevant later) posted a sighting on another one of those FB behemoth fan groups that come with a LOT of small print barking around ('BE KIND! NO BULLYING! NO SPAM! NO ADS!'). That particular group is obviously Spanish/Latino based and that is sort of relevant, in the geopolitics of this fandom:

Anyways, here goes. The woman had no fucking idea of Claire Fraser's civilian name, but was ashamed to admit to it - so long for accuracy, dude:

Her sister is also a member of the group, but curiously enough nobody asked her anything, even if she was there and could have given her own feedback on the whole event. And she did not offer any, even when her next of kin was clawed around by the patrolling Stans Brigade. Perhaps because she's only been a member of the group since December 15, 2024 (her sister, the OG informer, was active in there since August 30 2024, only)?

Anyways, all the obsessive tropes seem to have been thoroughly checked, in that comment thread.

Blonde Bambino? ✅

Tracula? ✅✅- you know that one was coming, right?

The Wookey Hole Caves is an amusement park in Somerset - oh, how convenient:

C might have went with Blonde Bambino and retinue for the Winter Wonderland show - it does make sense.

An easy daytrip from London, too. But it had to be Somerset, for some reason - where C has established no footprint since 2019 and something she never mentions in fan events (even though Tracula's relatives do live in that area - plot thickens). Where no other sighting had been reported since at least the Italian guy taking a fan pic with C, circa 2019-2020 (help me on this one, veterans 😘?).

What stroke me as odd wasn't even the lack of pictures. It would have been very easy to sneak one, since the OG informer's nephew was riding along Blonde Bambino on an age appropriate ride - but hey, let's not nitpick on that one, after all Park Anon didn't have any, either. Also, the OG informer is unsure about Caitriona's name, but knows exactly how old Blonde Bambino is? What about that 'almost 4" - did C casually throw some pebbles along the narrative track, like Hansel in that fairy tale? Isn't Blonde Bambino supposed to be 3 years, 4 months old? How is that 'almost 4'? Was the OG informer using her own deductive skills, based on a ride Verboten sign?

The carousel the Blonde Bambino could not supposedly ride on is this one. It is situated indoors, in the park's Penny Arcade zone, at The Mill (https://www.wookey.co.uk/things-to-do/):

What stroke me as odd is that both the OG Informer and the Riding Toddler's mum are inexplicably elusive about any specific details. I was not expecting a deposition transcript, for sure, but at least a couple of those details that bring warmth, humanity and plausibility to a story. You know, like Park Anon's little girl having a tantrum because she didn't want to go home:

[Source: https://www.tumblr.com/sgiandubh/751391542332325888/i-always-read-the-comments-on-sams-posts-because]

Nothing of the sort, here. But if anything, what gave me pause the most is this tiny little tidbit the sanctimonious people across the street do not want you to see:

You read that right. The Perfect Stay-At-Home Dad couldn't be arsed to watch 'his' son on a ride, in an amusement park where things can and do happen. The One Who Always Babysits, even when his 'wife' is clubbing around with her Praetorian Guard (credit given accordingly 😉) in London, knowing perfectly well C has a full time nanny for 'Baba', looked completely disconnected from the scène de genre. So much so, that the OG Informer had nothing else to report.

So which one is it? Was it T, was it someone else from the Praetorian Guard? Does it really, really matter?

All this carefully calibrated story surely made me think about one of the times I lied to a very nice bungalow B&B landlady, somewhere on the coast of the Peloponnese. When our electricity blew out in the middle of the (cold, February) night, I had to call her and explain 'me and my husband' were about to die frozen in her idyllic little orange orchard. My 'husband' was my best gay friend (currently posted somewhere in the Middle East, LOL) and we were very much plastered with excellent wine, which we happily continued to imbibe after the incident was solved. Bless her heart, she did ask me the next time I went there (with Someone, 😱) how was my 'husband' doing. I shamelessly told her we got divorced, in the meanwhile. She smirked and mumbled something like 'eh, diplomats'. LOL.

Double standards are, as always, prosperous across the street. Other than that, may I just add the most recent reviews of the park are ahem, mixed, at best?

Especially, perhaps, this particular review, written by a mom of a three-years old little girl:

[Source: https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attraction_Review-g635922-d213489-Reviews-Wookey_Hole_Caves-Wookey_Hole_Somerset_England.html]

I find the management's answer extraordinarily enlightening. They know they have a problem with it. They offer settlement outside of the saloon, perhaps a batch of free tickets and hefty discounts thrown in for good measure. LOL, really LOL.

Hence my question, Your Honor: was it even C? Why would she do that, when she could have easily went to Eurodisney in Paris or any other fabulous London seasonal attraction, of which I am sure there are many? This, by all accounts, sounds more like a sad, rushed and tacky improvisation - again, why? Why on Earth do that to 'Baba'? Why?

Make it make sense, please, because right now it surely doesn't.

I rest my case.

[quitealotofsodapop]

Had to format this weirdly cus I accidentally answered it privately to @soniclozdplove and lost it. Transcript is in image descriptions if this is too fuzzy:

Prev art ref.

Oh boy, the first thing that happens to Macaque straight after that reveal?

A sock in the jaw. From five different fists.

Also a burning toddler catapulting themselves at his groin area.

The only reason Macaque isn't sent straight back to Diyu in that moment is the appearance of the world's best referee;

Kṣitigarbha gave the Mercy Goddess a heads up when they sensed the Six Eared Macaque busting out of the Underworld.

Guanyin: "I plea that you halt your hands." Wukong: "Guanyin?" Macaque, surprised and beaten: "The mercy god?" Tang: (*faints*) Rest of the Gang: (*drop to a bowing pose*) Red: "Hi Auntie!" Tieshan, fan still pointed at Macaque: "Give us a single reason we should let this beast live." Guanyin: "His words and remorse are true. He had not known of the First Egg's existence when he engaged Sun Wukong in battle all those centuries ago." Wukong, still furious: "Whether it was deliberate or not - he still caused the death of ou- my first child! How can I be certain that he won't cause harm to this one?!"

The back and forth probably lasts hours or even days. And soon, Macaque realises that he needs an ultimatum.

Macaque: "Wukong, if there's any way for me to prove that I only wish to repair the damage I've done, please let me!" Wukong: "How?! How could you do anything to prove to me that you won't be a threat to them?!" Macaque: (*pauses in thought when his gaze falls upon the bodhisattva. The irony is almost hilarious.*) Macaque, pained sigh: "When I had stolen the scriptures from your Master, I only wished to free you of your duty to him, and free you from the Circlet." Wukong: "What does that have to do with the egg?" Macaque, kneels before Guanyin: "Bodhisattva, in order to prove my vow to protect Sun Wukong and his future cub; I ask that you give him the means to disable me if I ever become a threat once more." Guanyin: "What you ask for is no light request. You were willing to lie to the Buddha himself to remove the very same astra from your mate. If you take the burden for yourself, I cannot guarantee it will ever be removed." Wukong, eyes widen as he realises what's happening: "Macaque! You're not asking to-!" Macaque, firm: "I understand what I'm asking for. I also ask that both Nezha and Tieshan are taught the disabling mantra. I now understand that they have protected you and our island for far longer than I have. If anyone is to be trusted to monitor my actions, it's them." Guanyin: "What say you, Third Lotus Prince?" Nezha: "I... this is a bit unexpected... but I agree to act as the Macaque's warden. If he's truly seeking forgiveness, the Circlet will disallow him from straying." Guanyin: "And you, Iron Fan Princess?" Tieshan: (*points her weapon dangerously at Macaque's face*) Tieshan: "Do not think of this is an acceptance of apology, beast. If collaring you is what is required to keep Wukong and his child safe, I will accept my part in your punishment." Guanyin: "Then it shall be done. Liu'er Mihou, I now bind you with the Golden Tightening Fillet, so that you may be given the chance to prove your atonement." (*a light envelops Guanyin's hand as they bring it to Macaque's head, the shadow monkey grimacing as he feels the metal band encompass his crown. Wukong is shocked silent.*) Macaque, turns to Wukong with a hopeful smile: "Told you I was serious." Wukong, dumbfounded: "You... I guess you are."

Pigsy promptly asks what just happened, and why is the jerk monkey wearing jewellery now? Tang nearly faints again. Red Son demands to see the fillet in action and Iron Fan decides to amuse him.

Macaque's head is pounding for days afterwards.

Many hours later, with Macaque in the equivalent of a bright padded room, Wukong asks Macaque something important.

Wukong: "When?" Macaque, scratching his sore brow: "When what?" Wukong,: "When did you learn that they existed?" Macaque, eyes droop sadly: "When I greeted the Ten Kings and Kṣitigarbha in Diyu. They assured me that the cub's soul would be returned soon." Wukong, heart skipping: "Returned?" Macaque: "To you. I tried to offer something up to give them back to you right away but... it was out of my hands." Wukong, ghosts hand over stomach: "So you decided to escape when you heard they were coming back?" Macaque: "I did. I don't know where I escaped from, but I managed it. It was so dark and cold... all I could hear was my own thoughts and the winds of the Underworld. Then one day I hear one of the Ten Kings mention that The Monkey King's Cub is to be born soon, and I just saw white and-" Wukong, shushing: "Shhh. You don't have to keep explaining yourself. Though I'm still furious... You're clearly trying to make it better. I pray that the Egg is born in a time I can find myself forgiving you." Macaque: "Me too, peaches. Me too."

As his beloved King leaves the secure room, Macaque's hand switches from the circlet on his brow to the marriage pendant hidden beneath his clothing.

His vow is true. As is still his love for his mate. No matter how much he's hurt him, knowingly or not.

Also he should probably figure out what the heck the White Bone Spirit wanted out of him when she helped him escape the Underworld. He was a bit too occupied to pay attention.

[100babywarehouse]

(Transcript at the bottom, under cut.)

What is 100 Baby Warehouse?

It is exactly what it sounds like - it's a collection of sims that were the results of 100 baby challenges. In other words, this is a warehouse of sorts, and the only thing stocked here are sims. If you are looking for a spouse for your legacy, and you know exactly the kind of sims your heir likes, you may be able to find exactly what you're looking for here - if you're looking for a family-motivated male young adult, browse our selection to see if there's someone who fits your parameters. If your NSB rose gen needs some cute sims to woo, you can find those here!

Are there only "The Sims 4" sims here?

Absolutely not! You can play a 100 baby challenge in almost every sims game - I'm not sure about The Sims 1, but I know for a fact you can in 2 and 3. So, in our navigation page there will also be sections for sims strictly in TS2 and TS3.

I'm playing a 100 Baby Challenge right now. Can I submit a sim?

Yes!! Please! This blog will be EMPTY if no one submits sims, because I simply cannot play that many 100 baby challenges at once. I'm playing 2 right now, and that's hard enough.

Will you have sims for download if no one submits any?

Well, yes. But not very many, and not a good variety. There will be no TS3 or TS2 sims if no one submits any, because I don't currently have either installed. So please, if you have sims you want to share, please do!

Can I just make a post and tag you so you can reblog it, instead of submitting my sims?

That's perfectly fine too! I just have the submission page to make things easier on everyone, but if you want to make the post yourself and tag me, that works just as well. Just add @100babywarehouse anywhere on your post, and I'll see it and add it to the sim collection.

I don't play 100 baby challenge, but I want to submit a legacy spare. Is that okay?

While this is called 100 Baby Warehouse, this is also fine. I will have a specific category for legacy spares on the navigation pages, because I know that most people play legacies more than 100 baby challenges (including myself). Otherwise, this blog might be rather empty, and I don't want that! Either way, as long as the sim would normally be kicked out of the main house and forgotten, left to the whims of story progression, the sim is welcome in this collection.

If this is the 100 baby warehouse, does that mean there are only babies/infants, toddlers, and children here?

No! Definitely not! Sims of any age can be added to our "inventory." Even adults and elders. So if you want several teens for the teen angst story you are wanting to write, have a look around our teen category.

Can I download Aeli?

Not right now, sorry. Maybe later.

If you have a question you want me to answer, please feel free to send it to me! And if you're shy, feel free to ask it on anon. Just know that if too many people are nasty, anonymous asks will be disabled.

Transcript for picture:

"Hello there!

My name is Aeli, and I am the matron of this place. "What is this place?" You may ask. That's why I'm here - to guide you.

This is officially a "warehouse," as some may call it, but I think of it as an adoption center of sorts.

Here, you will find sims that have been forgotten, or abandoned, and left to the whims of fate (or story progression). Specifically, these sims were used strictly as stepping stones in a 100 Baby Challenge - in this challenge, the children are simply a means to an end, unless their challenge is done using the multiple matriarch rules, in which case the only child that matters is the final daughter of each matriarch.

And that's just unbearably sad to me.

All of these wonderful sims have such potential, they could have whole futures ahead of them, but they are denied that simply because that's how the challenge works. They are kicked out the instant they are no longer teenagers.

So here, we have a collection of many of these wonderful sims that Watchers in need may take in and care for, themselves. These sims can have any life they may dream of - or, well... have nightmares about.

Whatever life they end up with is up to you, the Watcher."

[folkbreeze]

meet toddler Saffy at her best... or her worst

transcript:

Saffron screams

Elvis: No, no, Saffy, please

Lazza: what's going on?

...

Elvis: she wanted cake. Ok, Saffy, enough.

Lazza: Por favor [please], make it stop.

Elvis: I'm trying! Come on Saf, get up.

...

Elvis: Jesus... Come on, shhh.

Lazza: Just put her on the cart!

...

Elvis: see? now mama's angry. We won't be getting kisses today.

[peachi-blossom]

My thoughts on Hazbin Hotel as a non HH fan

Originally, I was just here to watch people criticizing Hazbin Hotel. But when the recent controversies came in, I feel like I have to step into the fandom rabbit hole.

As a non Hazbin Hotel fan, I've watched the pilot, read the prequel comics, watched the ADDICT music video, and finally the show itself. (I've watched the show on March 15th.)

NOTE: I didn't watch the show on TV so I watched it on a pirated website instead and read the transcript because no way am I watching this in front of my parents, my siblings, or Grandma. This is my personal opinion on the show.

Pilot: So Hell is basically Earth except it's painted red and inhabited by demons. The background has too much red, but not as bad that it makes my eyes bleed. I don't like how the female characters have the same color scheme except Vaggie and Niffty (pilot only). For example, Charlie, Katie Killjoy, and Cherri Bomb. The only two funny parts of the pilot is when the top hat demon says "Wow! That was s***!" after Charlie sings Inside of Every Demon is a Rainbow and when Angel pokes his head in as Vaggie is giving Alastor a warning. I didn't like the daddy joke. It just sounded bad. Also, why is there a joke about harlequin babies?

Prequel comics that are no longer canon: Basically the prequel comics focuses on Angel Dust and Alastor.

For Dirty Healings, it shows how Angel Dust first met Charlie and Vaggie. I knew that Vaggie's name was named after a uh, you know. Ugh… Why did Vivienne Medrano had to name her that? Also I hate Valentino.

As for A Day In The After Life, it just shows why Alastor is the most feared demon in Hell. Also he swears after seeing Vox.

ADDICT music video: I genuinely have no thoughts on this music video. I think this was just bait for the SA and CSA victims. Sorry for those who like the MV.

Episode 1: This is worse than the pilot. I did NOT like the beginning part. It's biblically inaccurate for multiple reasons, but I feel like a few people only talk about this one thing. Sin didn't exist until Adam and Eve ate the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. Not only that, but it's also misogynistic too because it was just Eve who ate it. What makes it misogynistic is that it implies that all women would have to bear the sins of Eve ALONE. There's rampant swearing and sex jokes. Also, isn't Archangel Michael supposed to be the leader of the Army of God? Anyways I'm siding with the angels.

Episode 2: The red is so bright that it hurts my eyes. It doesn't help the fact that Alastor blends in the background. Oh yeah, when Vox tells Sir Pentious to kill himself, it made me feel sad because it reminded me of the Shay incident. The time when the stans drove Shay to kill themself because they were uncomfortable with the large age gap of HuskerDust.

Episode 3: Why? Why is there a BDSM sex dungeon?! I know that was Angel's idea, but still. Why?! I seriously have no words. When Zestial says "What troubles thou?" I was like "Huh?". It should be "What troubles thee?". I think his Old English has grammatical errors. The Egg Boiz, Carmilla, and Zestial are bearable because they never said a swear word. Off topic, but Velvette's swirl streaks on her hair makes me think of a swirl ice cream.

Episode 4: Before the show came out, I saw SlayQueenArt's post on Twitter (X) that says Vivienne Medrano hired Raphielle II, aka R2ninjaturtle, who has a rape fetish and isn't a SA victim. As someone who is formerly addicted to porn, this episode is insulting on so many levels. I didn't watch the whole Poison sequence because of that. And don't get me started on Loser Baby. I hate this song so much. It felt like it is blaming on SA and CSA victims for being SA'd. Like it is blaming me for being addicted to porn on and off when I was EIGHT. I know there are some victims who like episode 4 so I will leave them alone. I seriously hate how Charlie behaves like a toddler at the end. No grown adult should behave like a toddler like she did because being raped isn't a silly thing to cry over. Like, hello? She is the supposed to be the main character. Oh yeah, there was NO warning for the episode when the show premiered and it triggered the victims who watched it. SA and CSA victims are not losers. Former porn addicts are not losers. Nobody is a loser. I am NOT a loser.

Episode 5: Wow, Vivienne Medrano really turned Lucifer into King George from Veggietales. I guess this is what happens when King George gave in into his obsession with rubber ducks. I didn't like Hell's Greatest Dad because of the unnecessary rivalry between Lucifer and Alastor, but at least Mimzy ended the song. Oh boy, this is where I hate Alastor now. No really, he is Vivienne Medrano's first edgelord oc. He has gone full edgelord and is basically a Bill Cipher wannabe now. His full demon form is not even scary compared to Bill's final form. He no longer stands out from the main cast even if he rarely swears. Mimzy is basically the embodiment of the hooked nose stereotype. Wow, the embodiment of a Jew stereotype. How racist.

Episode 6: That was an absolute slap in the face at SA and CSA victims and me when Sir Pentious got SA'd! Seriously, Vivienne Medrano doesn't even care for the victims at this point! What's worse is that he is based off of her old ex-friend, DollCreep. Why did she whitewashed St. Peter?! I know there are white Jews, but he was born in ancient Israel so I wouldn't think he'll be looking like a white man with blonde hair and blue eyes. How come angels don't know how souls get to Heaven?! We got the Ten Commandments! We got Jesus Christ who took our place to die for our sins so we wouldn't have to bear these sins! Emily and Sera are bearable because you know. I hate how Niffty is being treated like a child when she's NOT. What's worse is that Niffty is supposed to be Japanese because of how people INFANTILIZED Asian people, especially women.

Episode 7: My issue with Out for Love is that when Carmilla tells Vaggie that she should fight for love and not for vengeance. Well, Vaggie always fight for love and never for vengeance. In Whatever it Takes, she literally says that she'll always protect Charlie. Where is the vengeance in that? That is poor character writing. Rosie is basically the blood libel stereotype where the Jews are cannibals. Again, that's just racist against Jews.

Episode 8: I thought the finale was pointless because there were no stakes and Sir Pentious' heroic sacrifice was comically anti-climatic. Like, why did Sir Pentious's so called friends cared about him when they didn't help him at ALL in episode 6?! I'm not a fan of the CherriSnake ship because Cherri only becomes interested in him because he has two "joysticks". Not to mention he kissed her without consent and she thinks it's hot after that. The problem with More Than Anything (Reprise) is that Vaggie reassures Charlie that she changed many lives, but she only changed one. I'm so glad Adam defeated Alastor first. There is absolutely no way Lucifer slept with Eve. Oof for Lute and Adam. You both fought well until the end.

The character designs are awful. Every male character basically looks like The Once-ler from The Lorax 2012 movie except for Adam (I know Alastor doesn't have a top hat, but still gives off the vibes. Zestial is more Burtonesque.). Not to mention they are all skinny twigs except for Adam (I think). The female characters in Hell have the same color scheme except Vaggie (again). For example, Charlie, Katie Killjoy, Mimzy (though her dress is a little darker), Cherri Bomb, and Niffty (show only). They have too much pinks, reds, yellows, whites, and blacks. I love pink, but this is too much. What's worse is that they blend in the background and again it hurts my eyes. There is NO color variety and I feel like my eyes are burning.

That's my thoughts on the show.

[theroyalthrones]

BEHIND THE SCENES | Alland, Romagna, Orillia

beginning | previous | next

The night unfurls like a well-worn tale as family cars glide into the courtyard, each arrival a thread in the intricate tapestry of their lives. Laughter dances through the air, warm and inviting, yet Lucian stands at the periphery, ensnared by a web of his own making. The faces of his siblings blur into a vivid tableau of love and familiarity, but within him simmers a storm—questions unasked, regrets unshared. He watches the unfolding scenes with a heavy heart, a silent witness to a joy that feels just out of reach.

transcript below↓↓

It’s a friday night, and Fiona and Liams clan is going to dinner together.

The night is crisp as cars start to pile in the courtyard. The family is back for their monthly get together. A tradition that started when all of Fiona and Liam’s kids started to build lives of their own. A traditions that keeps the connected. Especially since the older girls rarely attend the coffee dates Lucian and Lorraine so regularly frequent.

They are all familiar with the space of course. Having grown up in the palace for most of their childhoods. They arrive individually of course. Fiorella is the first, with her growing family of 4, soon to be 5 with the new edition prominently displayed in her person. She walks with her father, Her husband and sons trailing behind them.

Next to arrive is Flo’s family. She is also a very pregnant individual, and carrying her son. Dorian is with them as the walk through the doors into the dining room. Some of them are already sitting at the table. Florentia gives her toddler to the nanny to keep him occupied during their meal. She walks up to her father, and kisses him on the cheek while he continues chatting with Aleksi. Dorian goes to give Fiorella a greeting, standing behind her chair as she looks up at him in pleasant greetings.

We then see Lucian arrive, not long after Lorraine walks up behind him. She grabs him and holds him back from entering the room for a moment. It might be a bit awkward because the footman is standing there as well, but so is regular royal life. She whisper shouts at him.

Lor (from afar)] Luc?!

Lor(pulling him)] Come with me.

Lor] What’s going on?

Luc] {exasperated} Lorra

Lor] You haven’t picked up my calls! And I read the articles…

Luc] You know better than th—

Lor] I told you not to pursue this!

Luc] Maybe it’s none of your business.

Luc] [Angry] I can’t listen to this right now.

Lor]scoffs Lu-

He walks away into the dining room, Fiorella dogs on Him as he walks in.

Fio] You both are late.

Luc] It’s her fault.

Fio] laughing Clearly they’re lying.

He goes to sit next to Florentia and Dorian. The conversation continues now that he’s there. Florentia whispers to him and dorian looks over at him as well.

Flo] I’m so mad, we only ever hear from you in the news!

D] It’s not really news, is it? More so Tabloids.

Flo] That’s worse! Shocking, isn’t it? What’s true, what isn’t?

Lor] He’s involved with some girl.

Luc]annoyed Lorra-!

Dor] We know that. Even if she’s not actually— uh, what would you say?

Flo] — Committed, people love the jump to conclusions. You’re not gonna tell us?

Luc] Flo exasperated.

Fio] Won’t you give us what we want?

This is the time when Fiona walks into the dining room. everyone has been waiting for her. The stand up at attention, and when she gets to her seat and sits, they all follow suit.

Fiona] Honestly, both of you. You’d think you were paid to argue.

Liam] They’re young, Cara, can’t help it, can they?

Lor] I know, dad! whiny

Fio] You’re twenty-four Lorraine. snarky

The different conversations continue one. And dinner has also been served. Lucian watches sort of detached as conversations whiz around him. Fiona and Fiorella are talking about possibly sending Finnick to a boarding school in another province. Lorraine and Dorian speaking about Cars. Lucian observes it all.

Flo] Why not Gordonstoun?

Fior] Finnick wouldn’t like it in Drossel. So far away… Too cold, It’s a bit far for a boarding school.

Fion] [serious] is that not the point?

Lor] I finally got that spyder we talked about.

Dor] The Porsche?

Lor] What else? she’s a beauty.

Dor] Just how much are you making in that company of yours? Can’t have business at the table, but If I can convince you to sell me a share or too…

Lor] You’re interested?

A few hours later, everyone is leaving. They are full, and want to head back to their homes. They vow to make it to the next monthly dinner. They all will. As Florentia starts to break away from the group, Lucian calls out to her. She tells him that Dorian went to pick Leo up from the nanny

Luc] Hey Florentia!

She stops and turns to him.

Flo] I’m waiting for Dorian. He’s picking Leo up as we speak.

Luc] He’s cute.

Flo] laughing you’re talking about Leo, right? Because if not, we’d have a serious problem.

Luc] laughing as well…

Luc] Are you happy?

Florentia contemplates this for a moment. She is in her second trimester at this point, and what else could she say.

Flo] It gets tough. Work, family, marriage… it all takes its toll. And the compromises! Sometimes it feels like too much. But even so, they’re what bring me the most joy.

When she says they make me happiest. Show Dorian and Leo in the distance of a hallway, waving at their person. Lucian and Florentia look at them from afar. Standing still now instead of walking.

L]Francesca and I… we’re done.

F] Oh, Luc… I’m so sorry.

Luc] "I feel helpless… I don’t know what to do anymore."

Florentia listens intently as Lucian begins to share the story of what Francesca told him, his words tinged with regret and pain.

Luc] "She told me everything, Flo… and I didn’t even see it. I didn’t know… I wish I could’ve. I could’ve done something… anything."

F] Lucian. [softly, disappointedly]

She speaks to him tenderly.

F] I don’t know this… Francesca, but I do know you.

She touches her stomach

F] It’s unimaginable—the pain, the torment. They say a child is a blessing, and that one was yours.

She touches his cheek.

F] If you truly love her, go to her. Set aside your pain, the loss, the betrayal—everything. Think about what she’s endured…

F] "A woman so alone, scared, in a world that feels too big."

F] "Her walls are high, but be the one she might lower them for, or at least the one she could open a door for. Be the one she’s been waiting for."

He pulls her into a hug crying, he kisses her on the cheek. She hits his arm slightly annoyed, but also smug.

L] crying Love you, Flo.

F] Go, don’t wait longer!

Dorian and Leo walk up to meet them in that hall. Dorian gives Leo over to Florentia , florentia with her arms open and kisses grabs at him, and he cooes at her. Lucian stares at them for a moment.

At the end of the post, he goes to Francesca’s apartment. Fully ready to have a strong reconsiliations. but when he knocks on the door, no one answers. He goes to look through a window, and he gasps. We then see that the apartment has been cleared out. They’ve moved out.

[gunthermunch]

[Transcript under the cut]

Maggie: meow Bluma: yeah… i really miss dad too Bluma: what'd he do in this situation? Maggie: … Bluma: agreed. we are not up for more shenanigans Bluma: what would uncle Lucas do then Maggie: mrow Bluma: I'm afraid we don't have any apples left. WG: let's clear this up real quick: I didn't send that message. My niece who can't even read did. i wrote it? yes and i'm embarrased about and HA- bet you're too right? Cass: We lived enough time together, i knew you didn't send it. Somehow. WG: Ok word then how about you grab your truck and then leave so we don't have to see each other until the next horrible accident happens? Cass: what? Wolfgang. i'm dying to see your haunted basement. Cass: show me around, would you? WG: SILENT SCREAMING WG: coming.

WG: so- try not to laugh while i go about it- so there's this basement. that exists in here. Ok? ok. Bluma don't panic yet. WG: ughhYEARS ago before i went to Strangerville, i accidentally moved one of the books over there… old spy movie style maybe. horror even. it doesnt matter. it was some sort of secret entrance WG: turns out it opens to a basement i think. I just took a peek but i could tell it was huge. WG: now in the present, this little girl right here started hearing ''the'' ''house'' ''talk'' and she thinks it's ghosts probably because of some joke i made when she was a toddler. she got too serious about it. moving forwards she then pressed sent on a rant message i wrote and now here we are Bluma: GUH- Cass: it's okay, there's nothing to feel weird about. What did you hear? WG: she was born in a house full of tombstones Blooms that's basically family right there Bluma: dead people…? Cass: well nothing like your mother but ghosts? hundreds. Bluma: i hear… groans. and then running around but with- little legs. And then there's also the scra- scratching? WG: so yeah it HAS to do with that dumb basement Cass: Bluma, do you have a radio? Bluma: boy do i Cass: perfect WG: hey no weird shit i'm supposed to be babysitting

[armoricaroyalty]

For some reason, when she kissed him, he thought of Theo.

Previous | Chapter Start | Beginning | Next

Transcript under the cut.

WOMAN 1 | ...for real, I've been like, completely obsessed. WOMAN 1 | Like, there was hardly any wedding coverage for Jacques and Vivi, right? And that was my first royal wedding! I thought it was normal! I didn't know I was missing out. WOMAN 2 | Right? It feels like everyone's been saving up all their hype. WOMAN 1 | Has anyone else been following the dress rumors? WOMAN 2 | [ sighs ] I just hope Emily's dress isn't as boring as Vivi's was. WOMAN 2 | Vivi's whole wardrobe is boring! She dresses like a toddler, it is so unflattering. WOMAN 1 | I know, right? She should ask Lady Em to take her shopping. WOMAN 3 | Lady Emily is soooo gorgeous. WOMAN 2 | She's too good for him. He's always been such a scrub. WOMAN 1 | Whatever! I'm just glad it's a real love story, not just a shotgun wedding. An office romance... [ dreamy sigh ] Like, it could have been me! THEO | [ scoffs ] [ The conversation died immediately, and the silence solidified into something like hostility. Theo turned to see five pale, contemptuous faces fixed on her back, and her heart jumped up into her throat. Fighting to keep her expression neutral and her voice even, she stood and announced to no one that she was going to lunch. They pretended not to hear her. ] WOMAN 1 | ...she is such a stuck-up b-word. WOMAN 2 | Did you know that she used to date Prince Frederick? WOMAN 1 | Oh my god. Her? WOMAN 2 | Yeah. That's how she got hired here after she got disbarred or whatever. WOMAN 3 | Yeah. And her mom dated the King before he married the Queen. WOMAN 1 | Oh my god. She's a second-generation royal girlfriend? Gross. WOMAN 2 | D'you think her daughter will actually land a prince? WOMAN 3 | Why not? [ giggles ] Third time's the charm! [ Even in the warmer months, the gardens at Yew Court Palace stood empty. In February, the fountains were dry and the ivy dormant. Fat crows stirred in the bare branches overhead. Somewhere nearby, muffled by hedges, came the low hum of passing traffic. ] [ It was a food place to be alone. ]

THEO: I am going to kill myself or my coworkers, havent decided yet FREDDY: Nooooo dont do that FREDDY: Id have noone to text if you were dead THEO: Aw, no friends? FREDDY: Nope :( THEO: Pobrecito FREDDY: O baby. Talk dirty to me THEO: Lmao THEO: For real though THEO: Gonna kill my coworkers THEO: Or myself FREDDY: What did they do this time THEO: They are just openly talking shit about me now THEO: IN FRONT OF ME FREDDY: Wtf???????? FREDDY: Want me to have them fired lol THEO: I can fight my own battles tyvm FREDDY: Whats your battle plan? Stapler in jello? Sign them up for boner pill emails? THEO: Find a new job and leave them here to choke on their own incompetence FREDDY: Love when you talk about choking :heart_eyes: THEO: LMAO perv FREDDY: Cant help myself lol FREDDY: Anyway…sorry about your terrible job. Mine kinda sucks rn too THEO: Isn’t your job rn wedding planning?? FREDDY: But it’s not it’s actually mediating between my mom and Emily THEO: Do they not get along? FREDDY: No they get along fine but it’s like. FREDDY: My mom clearly has Ideas (tm) about how the wedding should be and em clearly wants something completely diferent and it is just constant FREDDY: Theyre killing meeeeeee THEO: That sucks. Are you at least getting your own ideas in too? FREDDY: Not really…altho tbf if i was getting my way it’d be like. Courthouse wedding. In and out. THEO: My parents got married at city hall FREDDY: Dreams really do come true THEO: They sure do THEO: Okay this is going to sound weird but...I felt like the wedding plans didn’t really seem like you THEO: if that makes sense? THEO: Like I get that you're a prince but a huge formal wedding isn't your vibe at alllll FREDDY: You know me…my kind of party involves a lot more helicopters and blow THEO: LMAO I thought there was just the one helicopter FREDDY: See this is why we’re friends lol FREDDY: You keep me honest

[ soft knocking ] EMILY | Frederick? Are you okay in there? FREDERICK | [ muffled ] Be right out! EMILY | Are you alright? You were gone a while... FREDERICK | Aw, did you miss me? EMILY | Just making sure you didn't fall in.

[mariapaulaaah]

The next morning, it was Emiyo’s birthday and Grandpa Brent came to visit. After a few pictures, it was time to blow out the candles! Tsubaki: Are you ready, my love? Come on, just blow! Emiyo: *blows as hard as he can* Image transcript: Emyio is all grown up! / Kids! Days spent playing with toys, exploring the world, and learning to communicate with words instead of tears await you! This is the perfect time to start developing skills for the future.

PREVIOUS 《🌺》 NEXT

Translation below (PT-BR)

Na manhã seguinte, era aniversário de Emiyo e o vovô Brent veio fazer uma visitinha. Depois de algumas fotos, hora de soprar as velas!

Tsubaki: Está pronto, meu amor? Vamos lá, é só soprar!

Emiyo: *sopra com toda força que tem*

Imagem transcrita: Emyio cresceu! / Toddlers! Dias passados ​​brincando com brinquedos, explorando o mundo e aprendendo a se comunicar com palavras em vez de lágrimas esperam por você! Este é o momento perfeito para começar a desenvolver habilidades para o futuro.

[yeoldenews]

Why do young kids sound so adult in old letters? Not just the ones you share, in general. It's one of the things that puzzles me about Yes Virginia, There is A Santa Claus. Were educational standards stricter? Was it actually parents writing for them?

If I had to guess, I'd say a decent part of this could be due to the fact that everyday, standard English at the time used a structure and level of formality we now associate with the elderly. It's similar to how teenagers in the past look older to us in part because we associate the styles of their hair and makeup with our parents and grandparents.

The first particular piece of syntax that popped into my head when I read this message is the placement of the word "have" in sentence structure. It used to be standard English grammar to begin questions about items or traits people possess with "have" rather than "do you have"; e.g. "Have you a pencil?" vs. "Do you have a pencil?".

If I were to hear the question "Have you any presents you'd like for Christmas?" my mind would default to imagining a formal, elderly person, as that's the only type of person I've ever personally heard use that syntax.

I think what we sometimes fail to consciously realize is that the stuffy, formal, 90 year old grandmothers we talk to didn't spontaneously start talking like that once they reached a certain age. They were taught certain grammar rules as children and continued to use them throughout their lives. We only associate that type of language with the elderly as the only people still alive to use it are now very old.

Education in the past also relied much more heavily on rote memorization and repetition, which I'd imagine caused people to more strictly adhere to the things they learned, including grammar, than we do now.

Children were taught in school how to write formal letters and those lessons were carried over even in letters to Santa.

I imagine in the future the phrase "I hope this email finds you well" is going to end up seeming (even more) oddly formal and dated, but people use it because that's what we were taught to do.

That being said, there are definitely Dear Santa letters written by parents, especially if the child is very young - but after 14 years of doing this I think I've developed a pretty good eye for spotting these. That's why I rarely post letters from children under school-age, with the exception of what I've taken to calling "toddler transcription" where the parents write down what their young child says word for word.

[smulie]

A toddler's gonna do what a toddler's gonna do.

[transcript under the cut]

[riotous joy] Alright my girl, playtime's over - it's time for a bath. [toddler babble] Right my bad, it's time for a bubble bath.

Wait why are you we ... have you been playing in the toilet again? [giggles] looks like someone just earned themselves another bath. [peals of laughter]

[simscici]

Farewell to the pink generation, part 3 - Check out some of Pene's books

Previous / Next Beginning (Gen 7)

Image transcripts:

— No, wait, there’s something appearing over there… is that… me?? I get it… I guess this is where it all began, isn’t it? I was always so full of dreams, ever since I was a toddler, creating worlds through drawings. And in childhood, that’s when I really started expressing myself through words, and not even the bullying I faced at school could erase who I was. That’s why, to preserve that, I ended up creating Cayden…

— Oh my God… Ash, you look so young in this vision, I forgot the baby face you used to have hehe… Of course, there would be this phase too, after all, you were my first and only love… You were also the inspiration for my books; did you know that this was when I started creating longer stories? And they always revolved around a teenage romance full of clichés hahaha you were so important not just for my writing development, but in my life overall. You’ve always been very important to me.

— And even when I did everything to push you away, you held on to me with all your might and never let me go… But you want to know a secret? Even if it was you telling me to leave, I would never have gone… — Penelope glanced briefly at the vision. — It’s a time I don’t like to remember for many reasons, but I can’t erase the importance it had in all our lives. After all, even after everything, we’re all still together.

— And of course, how could I forget them? Claire and Brendon… My original script was about a love that overcame everything, and in the end, they were supposed to be together, of course. But I wrote that tragic romance back in college, and since my life and my feelings were such a mess, I couldn’t give you both a proper ending… I’m sorry…

— Actually, I did try a few times, that’s why there was a time when I wrote several books with you two as the main characters, but the ending was always the same… That really frustrated me, to be honest. I thought it was just about thinking of a scenario, a situation, the words, and writing them down, but it’s much deeper than that. My mood directly impacts my creations, and because of that, I kept torturing you both.

— But of course, not everything was just misery hahaha, Ash and I had a really good time together, actually. It was also when I stepped away a bit from Brandon and Claire and started writing some short stories about our trip to Sulani and our moments together. Everything was going so well, and I even thought I might finally live the romance I had always dreamed of.

— But my next story says a lot about what happened next… The writer’s block continued, and I also lost him again…

[the-conversation-pod]

Fall and Winter 2024 Mailbag Grab Bag

AND WE'RE BACK!

Because we got bogged down in life stuff for the back half of the year, we built up more than a few questions in our inbox. Come listen to us talk about genre fatigue, our thoughts on the BL Bubble, and an hour-long discussion about sex scenes.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Welcome 00:01:15 - Introduction 00:02:10 - Inbox: Surprises of the Season 00:07:07 - Inbox: Does Categorization Matter? 00:11:42 - Inbox: BL Fatigue? 00:15:51 - Inbox: The BL Bubble 00:30:26 - Inbox: Sex On Screen 00:41:07 - Inbox: Fave Sex Scenes 00:51:24 - Inbox: Worst Sex Scenes 01:04:24 - Bonus Round: Best Sex in a Bad Show 01:06:54 - Inbox: Critical Philosophy 01:18:31 - Outro

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re you’re drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

00:01:15 Introduction

Ben 

And we're back. It has been so long since we've been in the booth together. We are getting to our asks like a regular Tumblr blog—six months late. 

NiNi 

Sounds about right? Yep. 

Ben 

We appreciate all of you for being patient with us. It has been a very difficult half year for me and NiNi, but we did get your questions and we did answer them. So sit back and relax and I think we've got, like, an hour of answers for you guys. 

NiNi 

Almost two hours bestie. 

Ben 

Oh my God! It is what it is. Shan will be joining us for these, so you will get to enjoy her lovely voice and insights. We will see you in the questions. 

00:02:33 - Inbox: Surprises of the Season

NiNi

Let's start with the inbox. Shan, you wanna take us in?

Shan

All right. First question today comes from @wen-kexing-apologist, and they write: “Which show was the biggest surprise, positive or negative, for you this season and what made it surprising?”

Ben

Biggest surprise positive is definitely Tadaima, Okaeri. I was not expecting to love an omegaverse project this much. I was not really expecting to love a show that relied heavily on a toddler to be one of my favorite shows, either. I had such a blast with that. 

My biggest surprise negative… I think it's 23.5. I was not expecting that show to feel as disjointed as it was. I was not expecting Fon’s show to have the problems it was gonna have in it at all. I was not expecting perfect, but I was not expecting the confusion I felt from that show. 

Ben

All right, Shan, biggest surprises of the season for you?

Shan

I'll start positive. I will shout out Unknown. I did not expect a high quality Taiwanese BL to fall out of the sky and it was quite a delight for me. That show gave me some proper brain rot for a while. I immediately went out and read the novel and I was super into the weekly discussions. That was a super positive experience, even though the end of the show was a little bit disappointing. 

On the negative end, it was kind of a rough season [laugh], so there are so many I could talk about, but I wanna give a special spotlight to one of the most baffling shows I've ever seen in my life. It's called Love Is Like A Cat, and—

NiNi

[laughs] You watched that?!

Ben

Man.

Shan

[laughs] I did watch it, bestie! I did, I watched every single episode. 

NiNi

Oh noooo.

Ben

Oh my…

Shan

So, Love Is Like A Cat was this Korean and Thai BL collaboration. It wasn't the first time that happened, but it was promoted as if it was gonna be kind of a big deal. I always watch Korean BL and I'm very interested in these cross-country collaborations so I went in, not necessarily expecting a show of all time, but thinking that it would be an interesting project that would maybe make some [laughs] interesting connections across those cultural traditions. No, that is not what happened. 

I was baffled every single week of that show about what it thought it was doing and why. The basic premise is that this Thai actor is afraid of dogs and he has to, for career reasons, go on this reality show where he works at an animal shelter. 

The thing about this show that is amazing is that they completely neglected the actual romance between the humans. There was never any point where you believed that these two people liked each other. But the love story between this actor and the dog that he was afraid of was [laughs] actually kind of touching?

NiNi

Oh no.

Shan

But also extremely poorly executed. One of the weirdest experiences of my life, I don't understand how that project got made. I can tell that the people who made it were similarly very disappointed with how it turned out because nobody promoted it. They really tried to release it as quietly as possible, and none of the actors in it talked about it. 

One of the weirdest flops I have seen, just kind of a big what the fuck to me, like, how did that happen? How did this get made this way? Why was the story about the dog the best part of the show? It was a strange one.

Ben

I'm just gonna go watch the end of Homeward Bound instead.

[all laugh]

Shan

I do recommend, I think you'll be better off if you're looking for good dog content.

NiNi

Wasn't there a Vietnamese cat BL that like—

Ben

We're not gonna talk about it.

[NiNi laughs]

Shan

That one was also real fuckin’ weird. Choco Milk Shake did something cool, and then a lot of other people thought they could get in on that, and no, they cannot. They need to stop.

Ben

Speaking of Korean BL and surprise disappointments, Boys Be Brave is also my near second disappointment, because that was from the director who did Our Dating Sim. So I went into that one super positively disposed towards it and did not have a great time.

NiNi

Well for me, hmm, in terms of things that surprised me positively, even though Love is Better the Second Time Around did not end well, I still was quite surprised by how well the first two-thirds of it held up. 

Negative surprise. Yeah. I gotta agree with Ben. It's definitely 23.5. I was anticipating this so much and I expected it to be good. And it just wasn't. And I don't want to say much more about it, ‘cause I think I said a lot about it on its own episode.

00:07:07 - Inbox: Does Categorization Matter?

NiNi

Okay, Shan, what's our next question? 

Shan

Next question from @avorbl. How much has the categorization of My Strawberry Film as romance by Gaga, MDL, etc. influenced your reception and rating?

Ben

[laughs] This is such a shady fucking question.

NiNI

I have not watched this one so y'all have to tell me, why is it shady?

Ben

My Strawberry Film is the final outing from Drama Shower. In both seasons of Drama Shower I believe they attempted to do something original. The MBS team decided to do kind of like an indie coming of age type of film, but over the course of eight weeks, 23 minutes at a time… and it was boring as hell. What avor, I believe, is hinting at here is that they released it as a romance. The BL viewing audience is going to be invested in this boy’s closeted crush on his closest male friend and maybe navigating the drama of his friend having a crush on a mysterious girl who shows up. And then there's a second girl who has a crush on our gay boy and they have to sort all of this out. 

There could have been some interesting stuff here, particularly because mystery girl might be queer? But, it's boring and it's moody in ways that film types like me can enjoy at a film festival, but not over the course of eight weeks. I don't mind a moody film that just hangs out in teenage malaise for a good 90 minutes. That can be an interesting emotional experience, but My Strawberry Film, being billed as a romance was extremely frustrating because none of the romances are really compelling and none of them succeed in a way that was interesting. It just was not what we thought we were signing up for, and because we were constantly out of alignment with it, it was a deeply unsatisfying experience. 

I know Shan suffered through this with me. Shan, any commentary you wanna offer here?

Shan

I watch a lot of drama across all different genres. I can get down with a lot of different types of stories. So for me, the main problem with this show is not that it was miscategorized. The main problem with it is that it fucking sucked. 

The entire thing is designed to leave you unsatisfied in a way that I don't actually think supported its themes or ultimately delivered a message that was aligned with it being hosted on a queer platform. There was a backstory with one of the characters’ mothers who had had these feelings for her female best friend that she thought were unrequited. She met a tragic end. She died. Later in the show we find out that her best friend regrets and did return her feelings. 

So, in this show about everybody liking somebody who doesn't like them back and a bunch of one-sided loves that all end in failure, the only requited love story was with the dead person who was not alive to know that her love was requited. I don't know what the show was trying to say with that. But what they communicated with the way that the story played out was that being queer is lonely and miserable and destined to end in despair. And I found that just such an [laughs] offensive message in a show—

Ben

It sucked!

Shan

—that was part of Drama Shower. I was like, what the fuck is this? On top of all of that, it also was just so fucking boring. It was such a slog, but because it was part of Drama Shower, some of us hung in there trying to see what it was trying to do, trying to understand how it belonged in this line up of projects. I do not know what the person who created this was trying to say, or if they thought they were saying something different than what ultimately was communicated by their story, but I hated it. Blech.

Ben

And that's all we're gonna say about that. It was an ignoble end for a very cool project.

00:11:42 - Inbox: BL Fatigue?

Shan

Let me change moods. This is from @mynameisnotthepoint and they write “Hi. First of all, I really enjoyed the spring season of the podcast. My question is: because BL is so big now and many of us are experiencing fatigue with some of the stories being told, is there a type of premise or trope or genre in BL that you find yourself gravitating towards, and if so, why?”

Ben

I'm gonna unpack the question a little bit. I am not experiencing fatigue necessarily, with familiarity with BL, I'm experiencing fatigue with BL consistently ending on a shit note. [laughs] I just desperately need them to just take any premise that they're trying to tackle seriously and complete it within the expectations of the character motivations that they're committed to or, but hopefully and, the narrative that they're trying to set up. I just desperately need the shows to be good more often than they are. It is so frustrating that so many of these shows just veer off of whatever course that they try to set us on. Some of them for commercial reasons, some of them for “look how clever I am reasons.” I don't really know, I just really need these shows to stop shitting the bed and I would be less tired. 

As for what I find myself gravitating towards, I am far more interested in queer life drama that also features romance than I am in queer romance in and of itself. 

Shan, you watch too many dramas!

Shan

Mmm.

Ben

[laughs] What type of premise, trope, or genre are you drawn to in BL currently?

Shan

Similar to you, Ben, it's not really about the genre or the premise for me. I can watch a good story about just about anything. So for me, it's really not about what the concept is, it's about how it's executed. My great frustration right now with a lot of the BL I'm watching is I feel like the story is the lowest priority. So many of these shows are more about promoting something, whether that be an actor or a couple or a brand, more than they're about telling good stories. And that's where my frustration lies. 

I will take anything you wanna throw at me. Give me all of your ideas. Give me all of your concepts. I will watch the same basic formulaic romcom eight billion times if you execute it well. I will also watch your super out there weird idea if you execute it well. For me it's just about the execution, so, I just really wanna see BL that cares about story. I wanna see BLs that understand that you need good writing to have a good story. That's where my hopes are right now for the genre.

Ben

NiNi, where are you sitting on this?

NiNi

I think I'm sittin’ in the corner with Shan. I am not somebody who gets fatigued by watching the same thing over and over if it's done really well. So, it's not a question of premises or tropes or genres fatiguing me. It's a question of things needing to be executed. On some level, I do enjoy rewriting [laughs] some of these shots in my head after the fact, especially if the premise was strong to begin with, but I am also kind of annoyed that I have to do it in my head and I don't get to see it on the screen. 

So, what I find myself gravitating towards? Something that's well done and written all the way to the end. That would be nice. I just wanna tell everybody: stop trying to be surprising or water cooler worthy and just write a solid show. 

00:15:51 - Inbox: The BL Bubble

Shan 

Okay, next question! @troubled-mind writes: “I very much enjoy shows that exist in a so-called bubble, let's say Our Dating Sim, and those that firmly don't, like the brilliant Marahuyo Project. Still, I feel like there are cases of shows that want to have a cake and eat a cake in that regard. Keep things on the lighter side as if in a bubble, but also try tackling queer issues like homophobia and prejudice at the same time. This just doesn't sit right with me sometimes. So my question is: what do you think is the most challenging aspect for creators when they attempt to get outside the bubble? And what potential misdeeds would you still forgive and which are too much to overlook?” 

NiNi 

Ben, you wanna go first or last? 

Ben 

Probably last ‘cause I feel like I'm gonna go on a rant. [all laugh] We talked about this a lot on the show and I'm probably gonna rehash a lot. Before I dominate the conversation on this, I think I wanna get some of your reactions first, NiNi. 

NiNi 

Hmm, let's see, what is the most challenging aspect for creators when they attempt to get outside of the bubble? I think tone is a big part of it. I think that's probably the thing that suffers most with, especially creators who are accustomed to working inside of the bubble, trying to either straddle it or work outside of it. They don't get the tone of what they're doing quite right. And it's not to say that it can't be, you know, light hearted or comedic or all of that. But it does, if you're going outside of the bubble, need to feel queer. And it doesn't always do that. 

What potential misdeeds would I forgive? Ooh [laughs]. 

Ben 

Be honest. Go ahead. You just thought of an answer right there. [Ben and Shan laugh] Just say it. Say it with your chest. 

NiNi 

No, I wouldn't actually forgive that. [laughs] I was thinking of something but then I was like, “No, really would you forgive that?” I'm like, no, no I wouldn’t and no, I haven't in the past. 

What I won't forgive is getting the sex wrong. Like getting how queer people interact in a sexual way. Getting that wrong, I'm just like “Oh, what are you doing, you don't know what you're talking about, or you're trying to appeal to an audience this is not really for. Stop this, I don't like this.” When we're talking about BL in particular. There's a lot of penetrative sex talk and penetrative sex action that goes on and I'm just like, this is not where boys start. And whenever they start that way in a BL, especially one that's trying to be outside of the bubble. I'm like, no, this does not feel right. I don't like this. This is not correct. This is not how it would go. And it can just kind of lose any sense of authenticity that story may have had. I can't suspend my disbelief any longer, I just. I lose it. 

What about you, Shan? What do you think about the challenging aspects and potential misdeeds? 

Shan 

I really agree with the point that you just made. In a narrative that is trying to be authentically queer, to be a little bit more rooted in a real world sensibility, not understanding how queer people actually engage with sex is a big immersion breaker, I guess? It kinda just pulls you out. 

I think it's helpful to give a couple illustrative examples of, like, where we've seen this before. Bad Buddy is the quintessential bubble/not bubble show that actually did it very well. Bad Buddy exists in a world without homophobia, but they layered a very clear allegory for homophobia onto the story. And so you still had Pat and Pran having to deal with a lot of the very same issues that they would have had in a homophobic world because of this rift between their families and the unacceptability of their relationship. That's a very elegant way to tell a story where you don't have to get directly into homophobia, but you are still having the characters kind of experience the beats of homophobia in how it would affect their relationship. 

And then you have a show like Only Boo that tried to also straddle this line and did it very poorly. They struggled with, I think to your earlier point, NiNi, tone a lot in wanting to have this kind of like, shiny, happy, fluffy show, but also have real stakes. And then wanting to just ignore those stakes and not deal with them whenever they got in the way. So there was a lot of conflicting information in the show about what mattered and what didn't. And it got in the way of the story ultimately, and derailed the main narrative. 

When I think about what is challenging when you're trying to get outside the bubble, in Thai BL in particular, there is, I think, a dedication to keeping these stories relatively light and romance focused and wanting to always deliver happy endings. And that can often be very much in tension with trying to engage with the reality of homophobia. There is still a lot of cultural homophobia, and the shows that they make in the BL space have very intentionally skirted that for the most part, and so, trying to venture into that space, into getting a little bit more real, but then also maintaining that tone of the shiny happy place and making sure that everyone gets a happy ending can often be in tension. That's where shows like Only Boo kind of go off the rails and really struggle. If you're going to deal with homophobia, you have to actually deal with it, and it might mean that the authentic ending of your story is not a typical romance ending. And I think that's a really hard thing for most creators to do in a way that feels satisfying. 

I think in terms of what I can forgive or not, I do want to give credit to the shows that try to get outside this bubble more, because they're trying to do something a little bit more difficult. I wanna give credit to these shows for attempting things that have a higher degree of difficulty, attempting to build an authentic romance narrative in a less than ideal world. But, there are certain things that you do have to make sure you get right. And for me it comes back to that narrative integrity piece. It's not that there are specific acts or specific endings that I can never accept under any circumstances. It's more that whatever happens in the story and whatever the resolutions are, they do need to feel like an authentic possibility that springs from the conflicts that the story introduced. And what breaks a show for me is when they introduce conflicts rooted in homophobia, that they then don't take seriously and just brush aside when they get too difficult to deal with. That is what breaks the fictional world immersion for me and makes the show feel like a failure. 

Ben, please start your rant. 

Ben 

The issue when you go outside the bubble is people with money are trying to make money off of BL, which means they're just trying to make money off of romance tropes that they can produce as cheaply as possible to maximize the fan engagement and then monetize the actors into advertising deals and fan events afterwards. That's how the market for this functions. 

The harsh way to say this is the audience is here for gay romance, they’re not here for gay drama. They don't actually care about the lives of queer people. They're just here to enjoy some romance and then go about their lives. This is not meant as a sort of chiding for the people who are in the genre for romance exclusively, but it is one of the major contributing factors for me for why we have this tension between those of us who are here for queer drama and often will bounce from romances that are just kind of schlocky, as a result. 

@troubled-mind brought up Our Dating Sim. Our Dating Sim is what we might call a technically in the bubble show because they don't say the words gay in that show, but it doesn't feel like a bubble show to me because there's no rationale for any of the movements of that story that makes sense if either boy was straight and existed in a world without homophobia. That story only works if you read them as queer. 

Dealing with this tension of, how do we get funding to tell stories? And then how do we balance the goals of the people with money, the audience that they think they're trying to reach, and maybe trying to tell the stories about queerness that matter to us? It's expensive to pay people and hire people to be on these sets, and it's hard to get the distribution deals you need because of some of the rules and such. It's a niche genre. What's, like, a very specific appeal. It does not get a lot of engagement and if the margins are that thin, we're not gonna see bravery that often in this, because how does that translate into dollars for them? Do people who want to sell juice and toothpaste and cars and motorcycles and stickers and chips want to put their products alongside biting social commentary? I don't know. Like, we're in a global backslide into fascism right now, and we can feel money drying up and organizations shutting down and former allies being quiet when we need them. It’s a rough time out here. It's hard when you're trying to juggle the goals of commercializing romance, the goals of commercializing pretty actors, and the goals of telling meaningful queer stories. It's very hard to really serve all of those goals really well. You can usually serve two of them, but not all three. It sucks! 

What misdeeds would I forgive? Bad acting. The first thing I'm willing to forgive in a show that is really compelling is bad acting. Make It Right is the quintessential [laughs] example of that. 

Shan 

[laughs] No, don’t pick on my boys! [NiNi laughs]

Ben 

Look.

Shan

They were so little! Leave them alone!

Ben

They were, they were. 

What is too much for me to overlook? Like a specific blend of sexual violence, I think. It doesn't come up as often these days. But I was here in some of the early days where there was a lot of “I can't hold back anymore” stuff that's not very pleasant to engage with. That's one that I just do not enjoy. 

Shan 

I feel like you also tend to get particularly angry with shows when it feels like they steered away from the more queer direction that they could have headed in. 

Ben 

That's a good point. Let me define that properly 'cause I did get a little bit lost in my rant. There's a couple of key things, I think, that are at the heart of queer storytelling for me. One is being othered and recognizing that in yourself often times before other people, or immediately after someone else clocks it. Like, a big part of being queer is being queer, literally weird! You are not in step with the developmental progression that a lot of other people around you are on. There is something different about you. And it makes you feel separate from others as a result. If I don't feel that from at least one of the characters, I don't always feel like I connect to them. Another thing is if they're not out, why are they not out? Because part of why you stay in the closet is because you are terrified of the massive social and economic changes you're about to face as a result of being out. 

Those are probably the two key things. It has to be the sense of being othered and the real concern about not fitting in and possibly being discarded. 

Shan 

That was a great question. 

Ben 

Thank you for humoring my rant, NiNi and Shan. 

[Ben and Shan laugh]

Shan 

I don't know how much of that you all will get to hear, but it was all amazing. 

NiNi 

One thing that Ben said that actually made me think what I could forgive. He said bad acting. Sometimes?

[Ben and NiNi laugh] 

Shan 

You can’t forgive bad acting, NiNi, I don’t think you ever—

[all laugh]

Ben 

Hold on. Where's the tape? Hold on. Is this you?

[Ben and Shan laugh]

NiNi 

Sometimes I will forgive bad acting. 

Shan 

Under certain conditions. 

NiNi 

Yeah, under certain conditions. Well, one thing I will definitely forgive is a certain level of production quality, I will find a way to enjoy low production quality if the story is good enough. 

Shan 

I agree. We try to meet a show where it's at. We really appreciate that some of these folks are out here tryin’ to make good queer stories on a shoestring budget, and we don't hold that against them. 

Ben 

We hold everything else against them. Looking real hard at you, Oxin Films. 

[all laugh]

Shan 

Oh my god, I don't wanna talk about Oxin Films. 

NiNi 

Yes, but also, My Dear Gangster Oppa. That’s all I'm gonna say. 

Shan 

Don't even try it!

Ben 

Oh lord. Here we go again. 

[all laugh]

NiNi 

I'm sorry, I will be haunted by that orange scar makeup. Haunted. 

Shan 

Ben has quoted “quit the gangster life” at me twice in the last 24 hours. 

Ben 

It’s true.

NiNi 

I mean, he's not wrong. 

00:30:26 - Inbox: Sex On Screen

Shan 

Let's go to the next question, which is quite a humdinger. So, this is long, strap in, folks. I'm going to read it all and then we'll come back and answer it piece by piece. @parralex0889 writes: “I'm reeling from being whelmed by the end of 4 Minutes, so I was thinking about the positives and I really enjoyed how sex was depicted and talked about in the series. Great gets picked up unexpectedly by Tyme, and when they get home, Great very pointedly pauses and says he needs to shower first and they potentially do a redo of that in the finale, as well. Tonkla, a character who openly asks for raw sex twice and eventually gets it. Great having his own condoms and no shame about it. I really enjoyed that these characters are allowed to have ownership and pride and desire and life and characterization through their sex and attraction. Even earlier in the year in Wandee—Wandee Goodday—there's a little moment when Cher exits the bathroom before going to bed with Yei, and to me, I could easily project a certain, ‘the water's running clean and I'm ready for action’ in Cher's movements. So to make this into a question or three, do y’all have any stand out ‘this is how real people engage in sex in reality,’ instead of the perfect TV sex that BL and BL-adjacent shows often lean into? Second, favorite BL sex scenes in general? Third, which sex scenes have been y’alls worst, either in execution or bad chemistry?”

So, that's the full question. Let me take this piece by piece that we can tackle all of. First of all, we haven't talked about 4 Minutes and Wandee Goodday specifically on the pod. So maybe we should just start there. Alex is suggesting that both of those shows were pretty good with their depictions of sex, and so maybe we should just talk a little bit about that first in our impressions. 

NiNi 

I mean, can I start with a liked it, hated it? [laughs]

Ben 

Good. Go for it, girl!

[all laugh]

NiNi 

I liked 4 Minutes more, I think, than you two did. The ending wasn't everything that I wanted, but I was still pretty satisfied with it. Wandee Goodday fell off the rails about, what? Halfway through and never got back on the rails, and I'm still pissed off when I think about it because it could have been so good. What was the reason?! 

I had to get that off my spirit before I actually engaged with the question. 

Ben 

Hydrate, baby. 

[NiNi and Shan laugh]

NiNi 

But in terms of how the sex is depicted in these two, I liked how Wandee Goodday tackled sex in the beginning. How they tackled a friends with benefits relationship and how they tackled them having a sexual relationship and speaking openly about sex and the way that they enjoyed sex and the things that they wanted to do. I liked that they showed them having different kinds of sex. I liked that they joked about sex and they had a good time with it. When things started getting confusing for them emotionally, it still didn't stop them from having sex, which I liked because so often these shows treat sex and romance or sex and love as these separate entities that somehow sex is sex and love is love and somehow love and sex can't be intertwined in that way. And so that was the thing that I did enjoy about Wandee, the fact that they intertwined sex and fun, energetic, engaging sex and love, not just soft focus, tender touching, missionary. [laughs] And then it went off the rails, but not gonna dwell on that too much at this point. 

4 Minutes is a different show. It's not so much about the relationship between these characters, and that's one of the reasons I think that I enjoyed it because I didn't see 4 Minutes as a romance or anything involving a romance. These two characters bumped into each other. They had sex, they got way too entangled because of a host of other reasons. Tonkla and Korn had a very interesting dynamic that involved, like, a lot of power dynamics that I feel like the show didn't entirely engage with and I would have liked to see more of. And then Tonka and Win and the way that they had sex also showed a lot of interesting power dynamics that were flipped from Tonkla and Korn’s, and I liked watching that, I liked seeing the show tackle sex sort of outside of the lens of love. So I did enjoy that about it. But to me, 4 Minutes was not about romance so the conversations about sex were in a completely different direction. 

I am the sex and story girl. I'm the person who wants to see, like, what is the sex telling us about these characters and their relationship and their power dynamics and their, all these different things. And I got, like, a smorgasbord of that, I think in 4 Minutes. So I quite enjoyed how these two shows actually tackle sex. 

Shan 

I agree with that. I have many issues with 4 Minutes but none of them were about the use of sex [laughs] in the show. I thought that the show was very smart in how it used sex to inform character. I really appreciate when a show that is about hot young adult men who have sexual desire lets them actually have sex and doesn't put weird purity principles around the context in which they can do that. And so I just appreciated how real that felt. To Alex's point in the question, that they actually did address in some of those sex scenes actual important stuff like sexual health and the way things actually work and having to clean up and all of that stuff that is normally skipped over in romance. I thought they were pretty good about that and that was one of the aspects of the show that I liked a lot, despite thinking that the whole thing didn't hold together all that well. 

Wandee Goodday I think a little bit less credit there, though I do appreciate that they acknowledged casual sex as a thing. I thought they also got a little weird about it in places where suddenly the two main characters stopped having sex for reasons that never made any sense to me whatsoever, but they eventually skipped over that, there was just a lot of weirdness in that show in general. But I do agree with NiNi's point about the way that they depicted sex as fun, and I think that's something we don't see enough. We don't see enough either of sex between committed couples and I thought that was a really great part of what Wandee Goodday did with Oyei and Cher, showed them as a long term happy couple that had a really active sex life and really enjoyed that aspect of their relationship together. We don't get to see much of that. I really appreciated that aspect of that show, despite really [laughs] sharing NiNi’s ire about the way that the story went. 

NiNi 

Bestie, I'm so mad. 

Shan 

Hee hee we’re gonna be mad forever about that. You have to understand, folks, that NiNi and I were so invested [laughs] in this show being good. 

NiNi 

So invested. 

Shan 

We were so excited for it and then when it went bad, it was just so disappointing. Ugh.

Ben, how about you? 

Ben 

It's difficult. I think I care oftentimes less about the physical mechanics of the sex when there's something interesting happening with the characters in the moment. I feel like I only really get caught up in the mechanics of some of the sexual stuff when they're fuckin’ up the story around it. I do like when the shows represent the kind of sex that guys are probably having with each other. Like I don't mind how much penetrative sex that they want to do if it's like Alex says, where, you see guys dealing with some of the physical preparatory realities of that. 

Shan 

Why don't we get into some of the other questions, ‘cause we're starting to get more into specifics. The next specific question that Alex asked is, “do we have any stand out ‘this is how real people engage in sex in reality,’ instead of the perfect TV sex that BL and BL-adjacent shows often lean into?”

Shout out to Alex for giving us this chance to talk about Knock Knock Boys!

Ben 

Heeeey! 

[all laugh]

Shan 

‘Cause it is definitely the standout Asian BL of this year for what does sex look like in reality. There was an—what I consider iconic and was iconic to the tiny community of us who watched—this sex scene between the characters Almond and Latte, who were having sex for the first time, and it was just a great and funny and compassionate comedy of errors, of them trying to work through the awkwardness and find the right positions and get comfortable with each other. It was a very charming and funny scene. I haven't seen anything like that previously in BL. Usually they're very preoccupied with trying to make things look sexy. This was not sexy, but it was very loving and I thought that was such a great sex scene. 

Ben 

That sequence really does a great job of showing people, like, communing in the act and trying to take care of each other and deal with their nerves and all the other stuff that they bring to the table. I also liked the lead up to that where Almond talked to his friends about how he was feeling. It was nice that Thanwa and Peak also finally let go of a lot of stuff that was hanging over them and they were far more relaxed around each other for the rest of the show, clearly having a good time.

Shan 

And I like the contrast, their characters are older. They're both sexually experienced, so, like, sex for them was a more relaxed affair all around. They weren't confused about what to do. Almond and Latte are younger. It was Almond’s very first time and it was Latte's first time with someone he was in love with, so they were more nervous. 

NiNi 

You know me, I'm always gonna go to the Philippines. The ones that really stand out to me, the Gameboys movie. I think that one felt very real. 

Shan

Perf.

NiNi

The season 2 cut is a better version of the movie. And then there's a lot of these Filipino quarantine dramas that I think did really well. Quaranthings, Meet Me Outside got me into the headspace of yes, this is how something like this would go. 

Ben 

To finish off on Alex's question, none of these shows are ever going to have somebody talking about prep in a meaningful way that isn't like a quick line, like, nobody's going to make a booty water joke in these shows. 

Shan 

[laughs] So yeah, we can only get so close to reality in Asian BL, let’s not get unrealistic with our expectations. 

Ben 

They ain’t making that joke. 

Shan 

No. [laughs]

00:41:07 - Inbox: Fave Sex Scenes

Shan 

All right. So let's transition to the next part of Alex's question, which is what are our favorite BL sex scenes in general? 

NiNi 

It's always gonna be, for me, Kinnporsche Episode 7 in the bathroom. The mutual masturbation scene. That's one of my favorites of all time. 

Shan

Mmm. That’s a good one.

Ben 

That's a good highlight. I have a lot of issues with Be On Cloud, that is not one of them. 

Shan

Yeah, Be On Cloud is good at sex.

NiNi 

I really liked the way that the scene is constructed and what it says about the characters and where they're at in the moment and how it evolves as it goes along emotionally, and then the fact that it is a mutual masturbation scene and not penetrative sex or an oral sex scene. Which is the most give and take that you can do simultaneously as two gay men. I think it was really good and it's one of my favorites. 

Shan 

There's some pretty decent examples of really good sex in the genre. I think in terms of other Thai BL, I would shout out the shows from MeMindY, which are made by a person whose name I will pronounce… May [MAME]. And— 

[Ben and Shan laugh]

NiNi 

Y'all, we got told we've been pronouncing it wrong, but we cannot make the mommy pun. I'm sorry. We just can't do it. 

Shan 

I'm not calling her mommy, I’m not doing it. So you're just gonna have to live with it. 

So, what I love about her shows is, I think that they use sex very well both as part of the narrative and as part of characterization and as legitimately part of the romance arc. Her shows believe that couples who are in love also have hot sex, which might not sound that revolutionary, but is in this genre, believe me, because most shows only allow hot sex scenes between characters who are in a toxic relationship or characters who are about to break up. That is not true in her shows. You see hot, loving sex before and after relationships start. You see casual hot sex, you see committed, loving hot sex in her shows and she really stands apart on that, her shows do, in the genre, so it's something I definitely want to shout out. TharnType, Love in the Air, I thought Wedding Plan’s sex scenes were fantastic. They really allow you to see sex as just a normal part of the romance arc and not something that is separated out and othered in any kind of way. 

Ben 

We cannot overstate when it comes to the work she does, that in most cases her characters have the best sex after they get together. We don't see a sudden drop off after they get together. 

Shan 

Love Sea, which we just finished recently, was a great example of that. The sex got better as they got closer and as they fell more in love. And that's pretty common for the trajectories of her romances. 

Another example that I'll bring up, and I did clear this already with Ben. You know it's coming, Ben, so brace yourself. 

Ben 

Let me just mute now. [Shan laughs]

NiNi 

Oh God. 

Shan 

I think we can't talk about good sex in BL without talking about History 3: Make Our Days Count. Taiwan is known for very good intimacy scenes, and it is the pinnacle of what they can do when all cylinders are firing in terms of having sex scenes that are part of character, that are part of the narrative arc, that are part of the relationship development, and that are very well performed between actors with extremely good chemistry. Just all around fantastic and Make Our Days Count has the best sex scenes in Taiwanese BL. It's just true. There's controversy around that show, understandably. It's one of my favorites. I know a lot of people don't like it for very fair reasons, but the sex scenes in that show and its depiction of intimacy between people who are falling in love is just top notch. 

NiNi 

Man, Sunbo and Zhigang in the gym bathroom. 

Shan 

Hoo! 

NiNi

Quality.

Shan

Bestie, I think about it all the time, still. It just comes into my mind and I'm like, ooh, yes, that happened! 

NiNi 

I mean, it's so much to it as well. The fact that it happens in the gym bathroom after hours, this, like, this feels like something that could really happen. 

Shan 

And we talk about Taiwanese BL and its style with sex scenes. It feels very raw, I think in a way that a lot of the more stylized shows don't. It hits harder because it feels like something that could really be happening, and it feels like it's the way that it would be happening. 

Ben 

There's great examples of that kind of intimacy in History 3: Trapped. There's the bandage kissing scene, which is one of the most intimate scenes we've had in a while. They don't actually have sex in that moment, but man is that one of the most charged scenes in that whole series. And then there's the birthday cake scene after Meng Shaofei’s been gone all day. 

There's the We Best Love 2 scene that everybody has feelings about that I think is great! 

Shan 

I have so many feelings about it and they're all positive. I love that scene. 

NiNi 

I like that it transgresses the line because it's a discussable transgression of the line—

Ben 

Exactly. 

—and people who just dismiss it because of that, I think that you're missing out, honestly. 

Ben 

We’ll try not to spoil it because we know a lot you all haven't seen it. 

Shan 

And you should. 

Ben 

It's good. 

Shan 

You gotta watch We Best Love, both parts. 

Ben 

What are Sam and Yu doing right now, hold on. 

[all laugh]

NiNi 

And then, I'm always gonna have to bring this up. A non sex scene that feels like a sex scene is Teh and Oh-aew on the bedroom floor in I Told Sunset About You Episode 3. 

Shan 

Hoo! Scratching the back! Oooh, I've been transported. I'm gonna need a minute. 

NiNi 

I can't even bring it up without it entering my brain. It is so ingrained in there. 

Ben 

You want to know how good that scene is? I have basically memorized all of the trivia around that scene. 

Shan 

You know everything about how it was made. 

Ben 

Like they had to film it twice. They filmed the show and then during the edit process didn't like the version that they got and brought the boys back. And that was really stressful for them. They had to redo their homework again. There was a ton of pressure on them. 

Shan 

It came out amazing, so thank you for your service, everybody on those creative teams. 

We obviously gotta talk about Japan here, too, because they are often pushing the envelope in BL on what kind of sex can be depicted on screen. Obviously, the Pornographer series is a prime example of using sex to inform character, to move narrative to tell us something about the relationship and where it is at every stage where we're seeing them engage in physical intimacy. The best sex scenes I have ever seen in a romance, still, in that series. 

Ben 

All the sex is complicated in that one too. Except for one that wasn't where I was so relieved. [laughs]

Shan 

Yeah. The one you were waiting for. [laughs]

Ben 

Literally, I watched The Novelist and we did the prequel in Mood Indigo. And I'm like, that's enough. [laughs] I’ve had enough!

[NiNi laughs]

Shan

That’s enough of this dark sex! 

Ben 

I had enough of this! I need Haruhiko to suck Rio’s dick right now. And within 15 minutes of the movie, that's exactly what happened. In a car! [laughs]

Shan 

It was in the special, the 15 minute special. He finished Mood Indigo and he said “he needs to suck his dick right now.” I was like, bestie, hit play. [all laugh] It’s the first thing that happened! 

NiNi 

Oh my God. 

Ben 

I was like, Miki Koichiro understands me. 

Shan 

That series really understands how sex relates to the relationship arc and where the characters are emotionally, and it always got every single beat exactly right. There's a lot of crazy good sex scenes in that series. There’s a lot of wild sex. The one where the chemistry is the most off the charts is maybe one of the ones in Mood Indigo, but my favorite scene in that whole series, my favorite sex scene, is the one at the end of Playback, the movie. 

Ben

Mmhmm.

Shan

It is the culmination of those character arcs, and it is so perfectly executed and they chose to not have it be a penetrative sex act. They chose to have it be a moment of very deep emotional intimacy, where hand jobs were exchanged. Ugh, it was just fucking perfect and I can't believe [voice gets intense] how many of you haven't watched it or haven't finished it because you couldn't find Playback! Please, come tell me if you need help. I will give it to you. You've gotta watch it. 

NiNi 

When Japan is on game, they're on game. 

Shan

Right?

NiNi

I think about things like the Utsukushii Kare movie. I think about things like The End of the World With You. 

Ben 

That has some great scenes. From the same team that did The Novelist and Mood Indigo and Pornographer. 

NiNi 

For, like, a couple that we saw even this year, like, Love is Better the Second Time Around and Perfect Propose, I think also tackled sex really well. I think about The Cornered Mouse Dreams of Cheese all the time, and that is a dark tale. 

[Ben and NiNi laugh]

Shan 

A dark tale that uses sex very well. 

Ben

It does. 

NiNi 

I agree, I agree. 

Ben 

There’s a great one in Jack O’ Frost. The problem with a lot of the Japanese ones is, like, if you're seeing a great Japanese sex scene, the guys are probably about to break up. [Shan laughs] Unfortunately. 

Shan 

Except Pornographer! 

Ben 

Except Pornographer. 

Shan 

Watch. I'm not kidding! 

NiNi 

And not in The End of the World With You either, because the best one is the one in the car, and that's right before they get back together. 

Shan 

We owe him so much. 

[NiNi laughs]

Ben 

Let's put Grand Guignol in the conversation. 

[Ben and Shan laugh]

Shan 

Oh my God! We reality should, though.

Ben 

Issei fucks Mr. Unlucky in that movie! 

Shan 

Oh, we lost it. Grand Guignol, if you don't know, it’s a horror BL movie, it's on GagaOOLala. If you have watched a lot of Japanese BL, you should absolutely watch it because you will be fucking delighted. [laughs] But, you know, all the usual warnings that come with a straight up horror film. 

00:51:24 - Inbox: Worst Sex Scenes

Shan 

Let's get to the last part of Alex's question. Which is, “which sex scenes have been y’all’s worst on execution or bad chemistry?”

NiNi 

Hoo. 

Ben 

We have to acknowledge that despite the sheer volume of BL this current panel has watched, they actually don't have sex on screen in a lot of these shows. And so, there are things that I have, take more umbrage with in shows that didn't even have the sex. Like, as much as I love Make It Right, Peak was not a great actor at the time and was clearly nervous to be around Boom for the intimate scenes they had to do. That stands out. 

NiNi 

I feel like what it comes down to is, do the actors go for it or not, and for what quantity of go for it? There are always actors who’re gonna go for it and go too over the top and it doesn't feel genuine because they're not willing to sit in the moment. So they're goin’ hard, but it just feels like people smashing together. It doesn't feel like it's being acted. 

Ben 

List them, bestie!

Shan 

Name names! 

Ben 

List them, bestie!

Shan 

Name names! 

NiNi 

Let me finish my thought here. And then there are ones where it's too soft. You're telling me that these people have this welling up of emotion or sexual desire, whatever it is, and the way that they touch each other in those moments just does not feel like that. It does not feel desirous, it does not feel overwhelmed, it doesn't feel any of those things. It just feels robotic. Hate that. Basically, anything where I feel like the character of the scene does not match emotionally and physically, where the characters are, I don't enjoy. As actors, you've taken me out of the scene because I can't buy it anymore. I see the actor at that point, I see the actor hesitating. I don't see the character in the moment. 

Shan 

All right, name those names. 

NiNi 

[laughs] I was hoping I could get away from it. 

Ben 

No, no, ma'am. 

Shan 

The question was which scenes, you gotta at least name some shows. 

NiNi 

Y'all go first and I will come back around. 

Shan 

What about Playboyy, NiNi? 

NiNi

[disgusted sound]

Shan

There you go. The gag sound says it all [laughs]. 

NiNi 

There is literally nothing about Playboyy that I ever wanna think about again. Let's forget that that ever happened. And it could have been so good. 

Shan 

You think about your list. I have an answer to this. 

Ben 

Go ahead, bestie. Say what you need to say. 

Shan 

I did not live through Big Dragon and Sunset x Vibes to keep my mouth shut about this issue. I watched both of those shows! 

NiNi 

Why did you watch them, friend? 

Shan 

I'll tell you why. And listen, I have no beef with Mos and Bank. They seem like nice dudes. Great for them. I’m happy for them that they seem like they have good lives. They’re out there doing their thing, cool. 

But I do have beef with their shows and I'll tell you why. Because both of these shows were marketed to me as if they were going to be mature, dark stories that involved a lot of actually sexy sex, and neither of them delivered on that promise! Big Dragon at least had some halfway decent sex scenes when it started, before it suddenly devolved into being random BL fluff right in the middle. It started as enemies hate fucking and then by episode 2 they were like actually, we're in love. And I was like, what the fuck? This is not what I was promised. So anyway, those sex scenes at least had a little bit of verve to them, even though the story was a mess. 

Sunset x Vibes—and I have learned that that's how you're supposed to pronounce it, by the way—

NiNi

Nope. 

Shan

Terrible. Just no, if you haven't watched this show, please don't. It’s not good. It is not worth your time. It is a mess and a half. The sex scenes in particular were so disappointing because first of all, they decided to do some weird blushing maiden stuff that felt like it had no business being in the story. Had no idea why they were doing that. And then on top of that, the sex scenes were not particularly tied to character or story. They didn't tell us anything really about who these people were or anything about their relationship. Were just inserted, almost like they were PPL—product placement—breaks. It's like, ope, time for a sex break! They didn't do anything in the story. They were not narratively important, and they also were just not well performed. 

Again, I have no beef with these actors. There are many reasons why they might not have performed these sex scenes well, even though they have, in the past, done a better, or at least adequate, job at that. But these sex scenes were uncomfortable. They looked like they were filmed in a rush. There were strange edits in a lot of them. The kissing looked awkward, there were awkward angles being used. It was such a strange show, because it didn't deliver on story, it didn't deliver on the romance plot, it didn't deliver on the sex scenes. I had no idea what it was actually trying to do. 

What I'm trying to get at here is that you can't just go out in the world and say, “Sexy BL coming your way, it’s gonna be amazing!” and then deliver this tepid garbage. The audience is not gonna stick around because you say that there are some explicit sex scenes that are poorly executed. 

While we’re on the subject, we should mention that another Thai BL just tried this trick. Battle of the Writers suddenly taking a pause to re-edit their episode and put out the longest, most explicit sex scene by far in the show, in an attempt, it seems, to attract an audience back to the show and get people talking about it again. I think people did watch that sex scene. I don't think they watched the show, though. 

Ben 

We sure did. 

NiNi 

[laughs] With popcorn, rewound it and watched it again. 

Shan 

You can't just expect having NC-17 scenes in your show to carry it anymore. There is too much good content in the genre now. That was a rant, perhaps that you didn't ask for Alex, but that's my answer. Big Dragon and Sunset x Vibes failed on this test. 

Ben 

I am always the worst person to ask about these things, ‘cause if something's not good, I don't catalog it. I don't usually hold grudges against BL for being bad at sex and so, there's a lot of awkward sex scenes that I've forgotten. I don't remember really enjoying the sex scenes in shows like Nitiman because I don't even remember what happened. I remember just going, “hmm, that’s bad.” And I just moved on for my life at that point. 

Of the things we talked about on this show this year, probably the like worst one™ was the one we dialed in on when we talked about Unknown. And that isn't because the actors weren't willing to execute the scene with each other, it's that whatever that they were coached into doing didn't translate well into what was edited together in the scene that we got. They didn't really build towards their sex in a way that completed the narrative arc they were on with the older brother. Those are the ones that I tend to remember more than like, “ooh, those actors were, like, biting each other's lips. What the hell?” None of that ever sticks with me ‘cause I watch too much. I’m just like whatever, shuffle on. Maybe like back in the day, you would probably be like What the Duck? because I do not remember the leads, doing a good job on that show at all. 

NiNi 

Ooh.

Shan 

I still haven't watched that. 

Ben 

[singing cadence] You don't need to! 

Shan

And I never, ever will. 

[all laugh]

NiNi 

I'm gonna go for a quote unquote safe choice ‘cause I just don't feel like having the girls come for me for coming for their boys. 

Ben 

Uh-uh. I wanna hear the answer. Speak the truth on this show. 

Shan 

I just trashed MosBank out loud! 

Ben 

Say what needs to be said. 

NiNi 

I'ma just lay it out here and the girls are gonna have to come for me. I'm sorry. I love First and Khaotung. 

Shan

[excited gasp]

NiNi

They did one good sex scene in Only Friends. I don't think the rest of them were good. 

Shan 

Yes, bestie speak the truth! Let's speak truth to this powerful fan base!

[Shan and Ben laugh] 

Ben 

Yes! Kill ‘em, bestie. 

Shan 

Tell ‘em, say more!

NiNi 

I have never enjoyed a JoongDunk sex scene. 

Ben 

I sure haven't!

NiNi 

Nope.

[Ben and Shan laugh]

Shan 

I still haven't watched any of their shows. I do not care. 

NiNi 

Mmm mm mm. And the third one, the safe one, is none of the sex scenes in Between Us were any good. 

Ben

Mmm.

Shan 

Ooh, okay. Expand on that. I feel like most people think the first couple episodes of that show are its saving grace because of the sex scenes. 

NiNi 

No, because I don't buy [Ben laughs] either of them really. It's the acting, it's the acting for me. 

Shan 

Okay. This is great, NiNi unleashed. I love it. 

NiNi 

Oh my God, I'm gonna get cancelled. 

[Shan laughs]

Ben 

Good, good. We deserve it. 

Shan 

Let’s let them try to cancel you. Let's let them try! 

Ben 

New Siwaj does get lucky sometimes and has actors who do okay together. The couple of times they've had decent bed scenes in his shows, like, I think the My Only 12% one was actually pretty decent. 

NiNi 

That was a decent one. 

Shan 

Santa and Earth have good chemistry. 

NiNi 

I think that the married sex scene in oh, God, what's that ForceBook one? Boss Baby! 

Ben 

A Boss and a Babe?

NiNi 

I always call it Boss Baby. Yeah. 

[all laugh]

Ben 

Where's my Boss Baby tweet?! 

Shan 

[valley girl voice] Force and Book were so good in Boss Baby. 

NiNi 

Let me stop calling this Boss Baby. A Boss and a Babe. New Siwaj hits on one from time to time. Most of the time I don't like the way that he directs sex scenes, but My Only 12% one was good. 

Ben 

I had a lot of beef with Only Friends, but I do think the car scene between Force and Neo’s characters was still a little compelling sequence. 

NiNi 

Oh hell yeah. 

Shan 

In the whole show, that was the best sex scene. People were not ready for that conversation, but it's the truth. 

Ben 

Followed by the Neo and Mark scenes. 

Shan 

Yeah. Neo and Mark were good in that show. 

NiNi 

Because they went for it, but they didn't go for it in like a, “oh, we're going for it” way. They went for it in an actual acting way. 

Ben 

Yes, you can see them fucking with each other the whole time. Each one was trying to outdo the other one in each scene, and I was like all right guys, I get it. You’re both athletes. 

Shan 

It’s rare for GMMTV shows, I think, to deliver truly good sex scenes because there's just too much other nonsense getting in the way. But it does happen. I still think one of the best, it's not really a sex scene, I guess, but a prelude to sex scene is Pat and Pran in Episode 11 of Bad Buddy. They just nail the anticipation and the heat of it to the point you don't even have to see the actual sex to feel like you just saw a really good sex scene. 

NiNi 

That one, and the one night stand in Moonlight Chicken. 

Shan 

Yeah. That's another one where they just nailed the anticipatory tension that can also create a really memorable scene that doesn't actually have to explicitly depict anything. And I think that's maybe the thing to think about here. It's not just the fact of a scene being super explicit that actually makes it sexy, and a lot of times shows are putting out these scenes that, all they have going for them is that they're super explicit, but they're not nailing the emotions, not nailing the characters, they're not getting the chemistry and the movement and the heat right. And so it's all empty. 

Ben 

An example of one that had us in a lot of the early part of the sex scene, but maybe not all of it, is the Episode 4 Ghost Host Ghost House scene. That has really good build up tension. 

Shan 

The legs! 

Ben 

Another example, they don't actually have sex in the show—a lot of that was because of quarantine protocols again, in the Philippines—is the kiss that they have in Boys Lockdown. I think that has really good building tension to it because of the mask mandate at the time. And I think that carries a really specific gay layer to it that I thought was really compelling. 

The problem is, 1, a lot of these shows don't have sex; 2, when they do have sex, a lot of it's kind of bad? The sex being bad isn't so stand out that we keep an ongoing list of grievances. 

Shan 

Speak for yourself, bestie, I got my grudges. 

Ben 

You're better at grudges than me. I'm too busy to be having grudges. 

Shan 

[laughs] I always got time. 

Ben 

Do not ask for my attention! It’s not good for you. 

01:04:24 - Bonus Round: Best Sex in a Bad Show

Shan 

NiNi, what question did you wanna ask? 

NiNi 

What is the best sex scene you've ever seen in a terrible show?

Ben 

Oh, interesting. 

Shan 

Oh. Good sex in a bad show. 

Ben 

Can I be mean and just say Make Our Days Count? [laughs]

NiNi 

[laughs] Oh my god, no you can't. 

Ben 

I’m still mad! I'll never not be mad. 

Shan 

You gotta think about an actual bad, like, a poorly made show that does sex well. 

Ben 

Why r u? 

Shan 

Yeah, I think that's the answer! 

Ben 

Not to be mean to the Why r u? team. Why r u? got crushed by the pandemic. Now, that show was probably not gonna be good anyway. 

Shan

No.

Ben

But, it's not their fault that their set basically got shut down. 

Shan 

Yeah, that's a really good answer to that 'cause Saint and Zee, that was a moment. I still think about Saint sucking on Zee’s Adam’s apple all the time. [NiNi and Shan laugh] It's so memorable, and they had such good chemistry. That show is a trash fire, but boy. 

Ben 

There's also some really goofy montage of sex in Destiny Seeker. Shan got that far in. 

Shan 

I watched the whole thing! I watched all of Destiny Seeker. It was oddly charming. It wasn't a particularly good show, but like, there were aspects of charm to it, and they did well on the sex. 

On that front, I would shout out City of Stars, which a lot of people I don't think have watched. It’s a show from this year, a Thai pulp, and I couldn't really say that it's a good show. The production values are low, it's got some green actors, but the sex was surprisingly great. Really well used in the narrative arc. Really well used in the relationship development and very enthusiastically performed. 

Thank you, Alex, for getting us to rant about sex scenes in BL for over an hour. 

[all laugh]

Ben 

We needed it, get it out of our system. 

Shan 

We needed to get some things off our chest, clearly. 

Ben 

I'm gonna end on this particular note. We need to see more people behaving like the MeMindY team. This trend towards really chaste BL or BL that's only willing to use sex if it feels like it's leading into something negative is not satisfying. Especially when sex is part of your storytelling. Do better! 

01:06:54 - Inbox: Critical Philosophy

NiNi 

We've got a comment, really, that came into our inbox from user @cuntextual. 

Shan 

And I want to be clear that that’s C-U-N-T cuntextual. 

Ben 

Oh, yes. Classic Tumblr name. A+! 

Shan 

Props for a fantastic username. They write: “Just dropping by to say you guys make my life better. [Shan says “Aw”] I listen to all your episodes, even for those shows I haven't watched, and I can't understate how much The Conversation has taught me about media criticism and QL history. So thank you so much for all your hard work.”

Very nice comment. Thank you, cuntextual. 

NiNi 

Thank you so much for the comment, cuntextual, and we wanted to use it as a frame to talk a little bit about media criticism. 

Ben 

This is the first time I feel like the BL bubble has really popped. BL hasn't sucked this hard since 2018. A lot of people weren't in the streets with us in 2018. They have no memory of this. A lot of folks joined during COVID. 2019 was a really good year for BL. A lot of people's favs are from that year. 2020 was a good year despite the lockdown. ‘21 was a solid year. ‘22 was a solid year. I had a great time last year in ‘23 and I do not know [singsong voice] what's going on this year. 

This is a good place for us to talk about, like, what is the role of a critic. For me, a critic is not a shill. It is not my goal or job to cheerlead shitty shows. My goal as a critic is to have a consistent lens and perspective from which I write that the listeners and readers can understand, so that when they're reading my takes they understand why I'm reacting the way I am. There are quite a few critics who I follow, who I often disagree with. But I like to read their perspectives because they're consistent. I know exactly where they're writing from, and that helps inform whether or not I might want to go see a movie in theaters or wait for it to come home. 

So when I'm reacting to shows on this podcast and on my blog, I am not here as a fangirl for BL. I am here as a queer cinephile. And so I'm here reacting because I want more English speaking people to engage with what's happening in these various Asian communities. As a result, when shit is good, you will hear me screaming “this shit is good!” But you will also hear me saying “that shit is bad.” The critic's job is to communicate to the audience who's listening to them hy shit might be good or bad as a means of helping them decide what might be worth their time to engage with. Anything else is just motherfuckers sittin’ around chattin’ about nothing. And that is not what I'm about. 

Shan 

I agree with a lot of what Ben just said. I don't really think about media criticism as clearly as Ben does in terms of bringing people to the genre and trying to recommend shows. I do that sometimes, I definitely like to yell about it when I really like something. But for me, I get a lot of personal enjoyment and pleasure out of breaking down stories. How they work, what makes them good, what makes them not so good. I like to approach media through thinking about what the components of the story are and how they're working together. And I get, honestly, a lot out of thinking about and talking about shows that don't work that well because that helps me learn too. 

So I don't really have stan loyalty to any show. I could start out loving a show, and if it goes off the rails for me, I'm going to say something about that and I'm going to try to unpack why and talk about it. Even if I really like an actor or a pair that's in a show, that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm going to think that their show is great. It’s great when that happens, but it often doesn't. And I really don't agree with the idea that the only way to support something is to cheerlead it uncritically. I've never agreed with that, that's just not how I interact with media. Bringing a lens of critique and taking the shows seriously and talking about them seriously is how I show respect and love to the media that I enjoy. I'm always gonna kind of show up that way when I'm interested in any kind of media that I'm watching. 

We've talked a little bit about the shift that we've been feeling in the genre. This is not new, it's just maybe the level of intensity feels like it's shifting towards commercialization and just selling product as the primary motive for most of these shows. And has very much crowded out the motive around good storytelling in a lot of cases. That has been the shift that I have most keenly felt. And that has particularly been very pronounced for me in Thai BL. I don't know if that's actually a uniquely Thai media thing. It might just be that that's where most BL still sits. Thai production companies produce vastly more BL than any other BL producing countries at present. 

One of the things that I noticed that I was talking with Twig about is that there has been a real dearth of high quality content coming out of other countries besides Thailand. In Korean BL, we have had a significant reduction in output, not necessarily in the number of shows, but in the quality and length of shows that we've been getting, significantly less this year than in the previous couple years. We've gotten fewer good shows from Taiwan. Japan actually, conversely has been producing more BL, but with a steep increase in output there has not been as consistent of a quality, and so we're now getting Japanese BLs that let us down in ways that we're not used to happening with Japan. 

It's felt a little bit like a transitional year to me, and this last few months in particular I think there have been a confluence of shows that have started really strong and then gone off the rails. That always feels really frustrating to me because I hate to get invested in something that then lets me down. That's way worse to me than something being just kind of bad from the start, from the whole way through. I'm still happy to be engaging with the genre so much. I'll keep doing it in the way that I always have, and I'm just hopeful that we'll still get a decent ratio of shows that are interested in storytelling compared to some that are not. 

NiNi 

It's very interesting to hear you all talk about your critical philosophy. I'm kind of all over the map on this stuff. I enjoy watching the shows and talking about the shows and analyzing the shows, and I also enjoy letting some of the shows wash over me. I'm not a consistent critic. Sometimes I do feel like a show is more like me putting on my critical hat and wanting to look at it in terms of, okay, what is this technically doing? What is happening here? And then sometimes I don't want to do that with a show. Either it gets me in the heart place, a place where I don't feel like I either can or want to turn that lens on it. It comes down to me, for me, on what the show is doing for me. There are some shows which I can see are probably objectively not great but I'm enjoying the critical aspect of it because I get to puzzle out in my head. Okay, what exactly is not working here and really get into the integrity of it. There’s stuff that's not great that I don't wanna do that with because I'm just having such a good time. There's stuff that's good that I wanna put my critical hat on and there's stuff that's good that I don't wanna do that either. I'm really all over the map when it comes to the idea of a critical philosophy and it really just depends on the show. 

One of the things about getting all this additional volume, all of these stories upon stories upon stories that are happening, is that the more we get, the more diverse and diffuse the audience gets, and I think that's maybe some of what's being struggled with, as well. There are still shows that we are all watching and all enjoying, but increasingly I feel like there are shows that are sort of, okay, this is speaking to this particular person or these one or two or this group of particular people and not this other group of people. Ben was talking about this when he was talking about Tadaima, Okaeri, that once all the people who weren't going to be interested in it faded away he had such a good time discussing it with the people who were there because they wanted to be there. I feel like this is something we talked about at the end of last year as well. The number of shows that is really a full fandom experience is shrinking every time, every season, every year, and things are getting more stratified, more diffuse, more separate. I don't necessarily know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. It’s just a thing that's happening. 

There's always gonna be, at least I hope that there's always gonna be those shows that we are all really agreeing on. All enjoying all, like, yeah, this is knocking it out of the park on all the quadrants. The various quadrants that we hold there. And we can talk about them from that space of we are enjoying this for very different reasons, but we are all enjoying it. Rather than sort of talking across each other at cross purposes because we are either enjoying it for a reason that is exactly why another person is not enjoying it, if that makes sense? So that's kind of where I'm sitting right now. Yes, the fandom experience is kind of separating into its little nooks, which is in some ways not as fun, 'cause there's not as many people to talk to about the show when you really like something. But, I hope that we're still gonna get stuff that's gonna let us all come together. 

Ben 

The hard part about being a critic this way is you have to be there for a lot of stuff. It's hard to do good critical work behind the zeitgeist. You need to be on the front lines with the viewers reacting in real time, like, that's the experience. And so you really want to be there for the shit that's going on. And it is disheartening as a viewer to start a show having a good time and then have your reactions become grumpier from week to week. It's not fun. It burns out the audience, too, like they're not having fun with that either. I don't want that to be the default expectation of the genre. That is not my goal when I start watching a show to rag on it, it's not how I want to spend my time. 

I want this to be fun. [laughs] Truly. And I'd like for it to start being fun consistently again. 

01:18:31 - Outro

Ben 

Clearly we need to rein in questions from Alex. I feel like we spent 50 minutes talking about Alex.

NiNi 

Alex got us talking about sex work over an hour. This is ridiculous. 

Ben 

I just want you all to know that I was silenced on this podcast and not everything I said was allowed to be aired. 

NiNi 

I mean some of the things that you said, bestie, were a little on the borderline. 

Ben 

Thank you all again for sending us in your questions. We do look forward to them and they often lead to really interesting discussions for us. If you're curious about more, our inbox will be open after we finish this current season. 

NiNi 

I mean, how much after are we talking about? I know I've gotten really bad at this. I gotta get better. Okay, we're gonna try to be better about this. Gonna try. 

Ben 

Like any other blog, we will get to your asks when we get to them. 

NiNi 

And yet we get to them. But we know that you love us and you will stay tuned and wait. 

NiNi 

And with that, we out. Say bye to the people Ben. 

Ben 

Peace! 

[thosegothsims]

image transcript:

blake: where did he go??? taron: [toddler giggles]