#this user is fem-presenting nonbinary

[lgbtq-userboxes]

Requested by lunaeclipse1057-ao3

[danmori630]

i love people who identify as “genderqueer” with no further elaboration. i love trans people who don’t pass and don’t care to. i love cis crossdressers who look indistinguishable from the opposite gender. i love traditionally masculine and traditionally feminine but indisputably nonbinary people. i love masc-presenting she/her users and fem-presenting he/him users. i love trans crossdressers. i love nonbinary intersex people who identify as cis. i love people whose gender identity is drag queen/king or transvestite. i love people who feel their gender identity is tied inherently to their sexuality, and people who feel they have nothing to do with each other. i love cis people who explored their gender and settled right back down where they started. i love bigender people, and people who define their identity by their euphoria rather than their dysphoria. all the same, i love people who feel they were made who they are by their dysphoria.

i love that labels are for convenience instead of being hard rules.

[walks-the-ages]

rad fems really true do think that intersex, nonbinary, and trans men talking about the issues we face is a personal attack on themselves.

Extremely hilarious how clearly knee-jerk reactionary they are when confronted with malicious transphobic attacks that don't actively target them, personally, so they think the attacks in question are great! Or in this case, a trans masc is saying because it hasn't happened to them, clearly, it's fake and made up!

ID: A screenshot of a Firefox extension review for Shinigami Eyes by a firefox user named nebula, which reads: "Works pretty good! It's easy to use and readable at a glance without being too obtrusive or ugly looking. The multiple color options are great too! I don't really know what all these other reviews are talking about when they say that transmascs and nonbinary people and intersex people are being marked unfairly, I haven't personally experienced that or seen evidence of intentional malice on the part of the developer or anyone moderating reports. A lot of these reviews focus heavily on transmascs being targeted specifically, but I'm transmasc, and I follow a lot of transmascs and none of the people I follow are red "just for being transmasc" If you're reading this and you've experienced people being marked as anti-trans when you think they should be trans friendly, or vice versa, you can remark them! You right click with the mouse and then mark them how you think they should be marked! The community itself is the one marking things, so sometimes it does get it wrong Judging by how some of the people leaving the reviews or posting about it talk though……. maybe it's just working as intended… ._. " End ID]

Hilariously enough, and typical for radical feminists, this person completely fails to give any actual examples of the supposed transmisogyny in the other reviews? Nope!

Do you know why?

Because it doesn't exist lmao. And they know that. This reviewer knows, on a fundamental level, that their argument falls apart as soon as they try to present anyone with their "evidence of transmisogyny"-- because no one who's not actively part of a radfem cult is going to see anything even remotely anything transphobic, let alone "transmisogynystic" in standing in solidarity with other trans people.

The fact this reviewer said this, when there's plenty of reviews from trans women standing in solidarity with the rest of the queer community, and plenty of people giving personal descriptions from four years ago, which this reviewer refuses to believe are from real trans women, trans mascs, etc really takes the cake.

Anyways. Do you care about the entire trans community, including intersex people?

Please take a few minutes to leave a 1-star review on Shinigami Eyes, and warn any friends who might still be using it that the current developers are currently radical feminists who are marking intersex and trans activists Red for daring to care about issues that effect them.

The current developers are denying that "theyfab" is a hateful, transphobic slur, comparing "theyfab" to the descriptive term "transmedicalist", and doubling down on racism, intersexism, and hatred of trans men in their official Developers Responses on the reviews pages (pages 10-13 depending on the total # of reviews by the time you see this).

[sammy--moh]

A random ramble about my identity, modern queer community and queer history bc I'm hyperfixated

(I don't want slur discourse under my post. I reclaim words that have been directly used to oppress me only and only towards myself, that's where the conversation ends)

(Cis/Hets don't touch this post

Terfs especially don't even look at this post

Anti kink fuckers don't look at this post, kink and LGBT are separate things but you cannot untangle kink history from queer/LGBT history

If your against the use of the word queer, don't clown on this post

Queer cis people are free to interact and add their opinions but don't clown on this post

Trans people and queer punks and activists please interact <3

Any corrections are welcomed as long as their constructive)

So you could probably find a few posts of me talking about some of my more modern and neo/xeno identity labels, its something I'm fairly proud of I'm a neo pronoun user and have been out as a nonbinary man for a long time

But I don't think I talk about my more, I guess classical and older queer labels and that feels disingenuous because I do still love queer history and have a lot of what would be considered ""outdated"" identieies

Yeah I'm a neo user and have some xeno gender labels, and I'm T4T which as far as I know is a label thats been around a long time but its still common and normally used today

But im also just a gender nonconformist(sometimes i use and reclaim the words transexual and transvestite just to piss off cis people who say i cant), i unapolgetically reclaim the word f4g, im in the leather community, I'm a fem man, im a cub, all things that have been around maybe since the 60s - 70s that I/still/ find connection to, comfort and community in

I mean hell I usually consider myself to currently be in a masc 4 fem relationship which you'd probably never guess by just looking at me

Which is another thing! Why is it always assumed that cubs and bears are the mascs?? I think I have more traditionally feminine clothing and presentation then most of my twink friends, I am a big, fat, extroverted, hairy cub and I am still the fem in one of my relationships and very feminine and fem presenting in general

Obviously masc 4 fem is not the only kind of mlm and wlm relationship that's stupid sndnd and expecting it is heteronormative, some people are masc 4 masc,fem 4 fem, heck not everyone /likes/ traditional masc fem labels and that's awesome!

Another thing I don't see a lot of people talk about is the fact that the bear and cub community is objectively a body positivity movement, that's what it started as that's what it always will be

Bear culture was a reaction to the beauty standards of gay culture at the time, when the ideal in gay relationships were young, thin, conventionally attractive gay and bi/multisexual men

Bear culture was specifically made to appreciate, lift up, and love large, hairy,sometimes older gay and bi/multsexual men and cub culture branched off from bears

I'm gonna be honest, I am recovering from a few body image issues and disorders that I wont go in depth on, and bear + cub culture has helped me to love myself and my body and find myself attractive more than any other body positivity space! Not to say other body positvity spaces arent important and needed, but that as a queer trans man this one has been the space I felt the most welcomed in

I wish there were a few expectations we could leave behind, like the idea that bears and cubs only date other bears and cubs, that terms like bear, twink, otter, leather gay, ect are gay exclusive and not just mlm and nwlnw terms, that fem and masc culture are gay and lesbian exclusive (dont come at me there are several moments in history we see these terms used by bi and generally queer men and that show masc and fem culture in bi and generally queer spaces)

I wish I could find more people like me in history, trans men who weren't masc, transmen and transmascs that were unapologetically feminine, I want to find transman queens in history, trans gay and mlm men, it's hard to find.. but I'm almost positive there has to be at least some people like me in queer history

But in general there's so much we can learn and keep from older queer culture that I feel has been lost a lot with younger generations

I love modern queer culture and neo/xeno labels and communities ans MOGAI and the breakdown of gender norms and sexual expectations

But im also unapolgetically a fem, leather loving, kinkster, trans fucking, fat cub, cross dressing faggot

All of these things are me

You cannot untangle or separate these identieies and labels from /me/

There are riots and loss in my history, and there is raw, unapolgetic queer beauty as well. there is pride in my veins, and fight in my lungs, and I wouldn't trade any of it for shit

[mostly-imagines]

Hi! Nonbinary they/them user here to answer a question, why am I here? To be blunt it's because I like your writing enough to stick around. I have a policy, if a writer doesn't use they/them or strictly second person pronouns they pass a series of checks as to whether or not I will read their fics. Is the writing good? Are the characterizations quality? Most importantly could I see myself in the reader's presentation if I can't in the pronouns? If all three check off then I will still read and keep up with fics/writers who use she/her pronouns. I realize this could sound dismissive to some authors but this is my genuine process of vetting, some days it can be weird and throw me off so I try to make sure I have other reasons to interact with a fic. If the gender of the reader is limited to a passing line or simply experiencing the world through fem presentation then to me it's not dysphoric to read and I can brush past it. Personally I get dysphoric when a reader character has specified height or names, genuinely can't explain why those two things specifically but it is how it is so I usually either ignore the height one and don't interact with reader fics where the character has an explicit name. (Not like a nickname or a code name or a last name like an explicit first name from the get go). But uh, yeah, sorry for the ramble but I saw your post and thought I'd offer my take on the matter.

thank you for sharing this!!

[sweetmoogirl]

I'm curious as to the psychology of your kink. For someone so young, it seems like a pretty full on and specific kink. I am wondering firstly, what is the connect between fantasy and reality, if any, are you just engaging in fantasy purely for horny reasons? Does your fantasy and kink ever enter your reality and if so to what extent? Secondly, how did this kink begin for you - were you traumatised, did you simply explore the internet until stumbling across something that you explored further because of the sexual excitement it gave you, do you have mental illness or are you a fully functioning person? I think there's a lot to learn from you so please, the more detail and clarity, the better.

im pretty flattered that you seem to think im so interesting lolol

i dont know which kink youre specifically talking about though since a lot of my kinks can fall under this line of questioning. ill answer this for the three "worst" kinks i have: detrans/misgendering, cnc, and misogyny. if its not one of these three then lmk and ill answer again.

for detrans/misgendering, it really not that specific tbh. theres a lot of trans people who have a kink like this or similar to this. (forced) feminization is also very common, especially in masculine spaces. theres absolutely a psychological aspect to this, as well as a societal one. trans people are oppressed and often discriminated against in many ways, including being misgendered. this kink allows for a SAFE and CONSENTUAL space for someone to cope through their traumas in a healthy way.

theres also a VERY strict gender binary often forced on trans people by cis people, and sometimes others in our own community, that force a lot of us into a box. if you dont keep your hair short, wear boy clothing, like masc hobbies, and transition medically then youre not a real trans man. if you dont do makeup and wear dresses with long hair, tuck, get surgery or use padding for breasts, or act feminine then youre not a real trans woman. if youre too masc or fem or you dont fit into nonbinary stereotypes then you must be lying.

this kink is a very easy way to explore masculine and feminine sides to ourselves as trans people that we wouldnt be able to irl because of these harsh gender roles that we HAVE to adhere to otherwise no one takes us seriously (obviously trans people are valid NO MATTER HOW THEY PRESENT OR CHOOSE TO DO but this is a very common mindset we have to deal with).

i got into this kink bc my gender dysphoria is awful. its made me miserable for most of my life and it, alongside my adhd and possible autism, is why i struggle so much with depression and anxiety. im always worried about how ill be seen, if ill pass as male, and remembering my own body makes me sick. i started joking over half a year ago, saying "well i cant get dysphoric if i pavlov myself into getting horny everytime i get misgendered. haha checkmate t3rfs!!!" and then it became less of a joke.

i wrote stories of trans men exploring this kink in my writing and it really helped. im still dysphoric. i may joke about how this kink is the way to cure gender dysphoria but thats not how it actually works. i still have days where my body is unbearable and the thought of being feminized makes me want to hide away forever. but it genuinely did help to break out of those boxes i put myself in and play in a safe space with terms and mentalities regarding my gender.

in terms of fantasy and reality, this is purely fantasy for me. i have no desires to detransition, nor do i have any want to be misgendered outside of horny purposes. i am a man, i will always be a man, and thats not going to change just because tumblr user xyz called me babygirl. im almost a year on testosterone and im considering getting top surgery as we speak. this kink doesnt affect me on any other level than horny.

for cnc/noncon, this one is probably a bit more in depth. i dont have any specific trauma in this field. ive been touched inappropriately against my consent a handful of times (as in someone touched my chest or my hips) but nothing that spawned this kink.

however, there are studies that show that a LOT (as in over half) of afabs get fantasies regarding cnc and non consensual situations. this DOES NOT mean that they want to taken advantage of. for the most part, this kink derives from the idea of being wanted so badly by someone that they would take you no matter what. its also the idea of POWER PLAY, of being helpless and not having to make any sexual decisions.

theres also a lot of trauma involved and, as stated before, kink is a SAFE and HEALTHY place to cope with that trauma as long as safe words, aftercare, and proper communication is enforced. there are many people who like being in a cnc scene and knowing that, unlike their trauma, they now have CONTROL over the situation and can stop it whenever they want and have their wishes be RESPECTED. in this area, i am the wrong person to ask so i implore you to do more research on your own with this topic if youre truly curious.

for ME personally, i like noncon/cnc bc of that power dynamic. i am a submissive who could NEVER dom in any sense of the word. i like being completely submissive and i like having my dom take control and do anything and everything for me. i dont want to make decisions and i like being overpowered and taken care of. its just hot to be forced to do something, whether that be manhandled into the next room or be good.

this is a fantasy that ive had for years, even when i was a kid. i dont know WHY that is, but i do know that a lot of my friends who have childhood related trauma also had fantasies like that as a kid. i also discovered hardcore porn and noncon scenes when i was WAY too young to even know what sex was and im sure that exposure affected me in an unhealthy way too. again, id implore you to look for educational resources on the nature of forceful and violent fantasies, both sexual and not. its a fascinating subject and bdsm and kink psychology and etiquette has been a fixation of mine for years.

and it is just that, a fantasy. in real life, i am extremely sex repulsed and borderline identify as asexual because i dont want to do anything like that with anyone. im also, as mentioned before, extremely anxious and socially awkward so i dont like being near people at all. the idea of anyone hitting on me or not respecting my boundaries makes me feel ill, even if its hot while im horny.

for misogyny, ill keep it short bc its related to everything above. basically combine my reasoning for cnc and detrans and youd get my reason for this. its basically me, as a trans person, going from one extreme of being so masculine it was toxic and exploring the other extreme. its once again just me exploring a taboo subject in a safe and consensual space.

misogyny kink is rooted in strict female gender roles, as well as the forcefulness and disrespect you get from cnc. thats why its my favorite kink, it combines everything i like but specifically utilizes WHY i like those things. i discovered it when i made my first detrans/misgendering tumblr account and made a side account dedicated to it, and then when i made this account i just combined the two.

i grew up super fucking feminist and i still am a major feminist who is all about supporting women and their choices. i love women and think theyre cool as hell and much, much stronger than i am lolol. this is just a fantasy for me, nothing more. this is another kink that is heavy on the dom/sub dynamics, as well as giving people who experience trauma at the face of their oppression a place to take back those experiences.

anyways thats my super long post!!! tysm for asking, anon, i love answering questions. if you have any further questions then you can shoot me some more anons or you can message me directly, i dont mind :D

i hope i answered your question and it all made sense!!!!

[sickgirlsickpoetry]

my opinion as an afab nonbinary, genderfuck, mogai user means rightfully nothing, bit I find roseboy, or.. canceling the use of femboys so stupid.

fem boy?

traditionally feminine presenting boy.

what's wrong with that?

if we wanna cancel something let's cancel the word trap, that shit is so transphobic and rapey.

[biracy]

Like okay. Let's look at some "queer media" I've engaged with before which I imagine Tumblr users will be on some level familiar with (I think. idk what the hell is popular on here anymore):

What We Do in the Shadows has four men (Guillermo, Nandor, Laszlo, and Colin) and two women (Nadja and the Guide) in the main cast. I would not in any universe classify any of the men as "feminine," nor would I classify either of the women as "masculine." This is unfortunate because I've seen Harvey Guillen, the real person, dress fem before and I think fem Guillermo would be incredible, but in no universe do Guillermo's ugly sweaters "lean towards femininity." The characters in wwdits are explicitly some kind of gay, but all of them are some level of gender-conforming.

Good Omens is a show with quite a few androgynous and/or nonbinary characters (some of the Horsemen in the first season, Uriel, Beezlebub, etc.), but that androgyny is mostly achieved through something like having all of the angels, including the women, wear suits. Despite this, I would hesitate to call either Aziraphale or Crowley "androgynous," let alone "feminine" in presentation. Unless, of course, op of this post thinks being "a Southern pansy" or spending one scene dressed as a woman is "leaning towards femininity."

I'm only about halfway through Gideon the Ninth but I will confidently call Gideon Nav "butch." So far I don't really think gender presentation works the same way in The Locked Tomb as it does in like, our world, but Gideon is butch and Harrow is like, androgynous. Not butch or femme but a secret third thing (goth). There are definitely feminine women in Gideon the Ninth too, and for the record I think it's definitely an outstanding example for like, butch representation, gay girl representation, kind of just the concept of "representation" in general and I would never take this to insinuate that "queer media" as a whole represents butchness the way Gideon the Ninth does. I would even throw op a coin and say that yes, masculine gay women are not positively represented in a lot of media and that is a problem. I will now take that coin away because that's not in any way because of Feminine Dominance or Anti-Masculism whatever these people believe in.

TL;DR: I think what's more common than anything else is gender-conforming "queerness in media." Men are usually some varying degree of masculine, women are usually some varying degree of feminine, and ultimately the status quo remains unchanged. This is for a bunch of reasons - people, both gay and straight people, are still in some way "turned off" by gender non-conformity, straight creators are so focused on not making "stereotypical" or "bad representation" that they feel like they need to make every gay character as straight-looking and "not gay" as possible, general transphobia, whatever. There is no massive mainstream push to remove masculine men from media. There is no societal hatred of masculinity. There is a societal aversion to gender variance and things that are undeniably "gay", and femininity is just as much a part of that as masculinity. It's the same shit I was talking about yesterday lol it is just not useful at all to say "my gay trans gnc experience is soooo uniquely difficult, unlike The Other Side who have it so easy with THEIR gay trans gnc experience" it's never true and it doesn't work

Sorry for doing another "screenshotted post response" but Beck sent me this screenshot this morning and I've been unable to stop thinking about it. I would love to know what planet the person who wrote this lives on. I earnestly believe this is a take that can only be formed if your primary interaction with "queerness in media" is like, lesbians in children's cartoons, and/or you perceive any slightly "stereotypically gay" behavior in a man character to be "leaning towards femininity"

[technicolor-rhapsody]

Hey there!

I’d love to see your take on John Constantine and a fem presenting (nonbinary) reader who’s also a magic user, if you’re up for it!

(I love any and all things Constantine, so like, whatever you think you can do, I’ll take!)

Hey! Thank you so much for the request! I'm sorry it took so long. I re-wrote this piece like 4 times. 🥴

I wasn't sure how to write a nonbinary yet fem presenting reader, so I tried to keep it gender neutral for the most part. I hope that's okay and that you enjoy this anyways! 💕

You watch his movements with a critical eye. It takes a lot of energy to keep your expression neutral and to bite your tongue as to not nag. However, Constantine is perceptive enough to take notice.

"If you have somethin' to say, just say it."

His tone of exasperation and annoyance matches his expression. The scratching of the chalk against the stone floor has halted. He waits for you to speak.

If he insists. "You're writing is like chicken scratch." Brutal honesty it is. You carefully move closer towards the magic circle he's drawn. "The lines of your runes seem just a tad wobbly. Some of them are off by a couple of degrees. If you don't-"

"I bloody well have been copying yours stroke by stroke." He replies, pointing towards your own magic circle.

A hand is held out to him. You nod towards the chalk. "May I?"

It's placed in your hand as he grumbles. He moves back to observe the corrections you're about to make. That's fine. It'll settle your nerves knowing that you've done so. Magic is one fo the few things you're a perfectionist with. Really one must be. Make a wrong move, say an incorrect word or use an inaccurate ingredient and the consequences could be deadly.

With care you take the time to make your corrections. Lines are straightened out. Strokes are made crisper. You do this in silence as he stares on. Once finished you beckon him to step back into the circle, giving him the warning not to smear or erase any of the chalk.

"You're a real bossy bird, you know that?"

When he steps in you step out. Hastily you make your way over to several densely packed plastic bags. From them you start pulling out enough candles to light a small village. However there's two that not like the others. These two you made. They're imperfect compared to the store bought ones. The wax is blacker than any ink; a contrast to the sea of garish colors.

Around each magic circle the candles are set ---all except the special two. You set one inside your circle and the other in his.

"Is all this really necessary? It's a bit theatrical for me tastes." He lights up a ciggie, taking several drags.

"Inconvenient is the word you should have used. You don't mind theatrics. It's the act of having to have patience you despise." You dig a pocket knife out from your back jeans pocket. "You ready?"

He gives you a nod, expression softening. "Aye. Ta for the help." He offers the cigarette to you, to which you accept a few puffs from. You grab his hand and flip it over to press a kiss to the palm. His skin is warm yet his hand feels rough; not calloused but like a person who frequently works with their hands. You've had the pleasure of knowing just how skilled he is with said hands.

You murmur an apology before slicing his palm. Blood bubbles to the surface. He let's a few drops drop onto the black candle. A flame bursts forth, burning a bright purple. You make your way into your own circle and complete the same process. Once both candles are lit with the violet flame, you and Constantine began reciting the spell. When the runes start glowing you know the ritual has started.

Even if it might be the wrong time for such a thing, you can't help but shoot him a smug grin.

[trashcatsnark]

So, uhhh apparently kerry bi discourse is still like a thing? For some ungodly reason. And I’ve been open about the fact that I do not like how the bi representation was handled in Cyberpunk 2077. I’ve never minced words or pussyfooted around that, there were times where it genuinely upset me if I’m being honest. But, I’ve come to the conclusion and acceptance that regardless of who he romances in game, regardless of the piss poor way it was handled, Kerry is a bisexual man. While not overt in the game, it is present in him having an ex wife and before you scream compulsory heterosexuality, both the person who created him and developers of the game have stated they consider him a bisexual man. 

It is also stated by this developer that the only reason Kerry is exclusively attracted to a masc! v is because they remind him of Johnny. Which, i will state here, I don’t like. I think it’s poor writing choice, I think it’s a slap in the face to those who romance him, especially given that while he may initially be interacting with V for that reason, he does change so why is that still a factor in his choosing to date V? I think it’s a poor decision, but regardless of that the reason Kerry doesn’t date a fem! v is not because he’s repulsed by women, is not because he’s not attracted to women. Personally, I think the biggest reason Kerry is only interested in masc!v is far simpler and less character based, I think they wanted to have an equal amount of romance options for men and women, and they figured women would like River and men would like Kerry.

So, Kerry is bisexual, women are attracted to him. They’re going to want to create female characters romantically entangled with him. And that’s completely plausible, valid, and okay. If you are someone who ships him with a woman, a man, a nonbinary individual. If the character you ship him with is trans or cis. No matter the case, you’re okay, you’re not hurting anyone. You are not homophobic, you are not biphobic, you are not fetishizing a gay man, you are not a bad person for the victimless act of shipping someone with Kerry. 

And if you’re someone who doesn’t like the idea of him with women, who wants to write and see him as man who is entirely attracted to men. That’s okay, too. Do I personally like or agree with that sentiment, no, but I respect you enough as a person to not police what you do so long as it isn’t hurting other people. 

And you owe people that same respect. Be kind, be respectful, don’t engage with content you don’t like, and block tags/users/etc. But what we’re not gonna do is equivocate the act of shipping a fictional man with another fictional character to the physical sexual violation of actual human beings. Because that is harmful, that is hurting other people. Disrespecting and mistreating people over it, is harmful. If you are someone who’s engaged in that behavior, I do sincerely hope you take a step back, realize you’re harming actual human beings over a fictional character, and reevaluate your priorities. 

[violencebian]

one of my favorite games -the world next door- has a fem nonbinary !!! exclusive they/them user !!!

theyre so pretty i love them also !!! they have a really cute sidestory about being in love with a rock himbo

YESSS YEEHAHHAHH YESS im a SUCKER for fem presenting nonbinary rep. MASC PRESENTING NONBINARY REP TOO like dont get me wrong i love what we have but im getting kinda tired of the same skinny androgynous characters with glasses over and over (and thats when theyre not a fucking alien or shapeshifter) so ill def check this game out at some point !!!!

[enbypanposi]

Nonbinary Folks:

You don’t have to be anything. You don’t have to be or consider yourself to be

aligned

unaligned

transneutral

transfeminine or masculine 

a user of they/them pronouns

a user of neopronouns

fem-presenting

masc-presenting

androgynous

conventionally attractive

out

LGB

You’re allowed to just be nonbinary. You don’t need to confine yourself. You can just be you.

[kae-karo]

hi! me again! i understand that bi/pan people with a preference would never be considered lesbians but i had it presented to me as being like bisexual homoromantic which would be as valid as being ace and homoromantic right? and i don't understand how A's id could affect or imply anything about B's id? like the acknowledgment of demigirls doesn't affects girls being fully girls? as far as pronouns isn't the whole point that they ARE gendered, otherwise we would all just be they/them? (1/2)

non queer people very much understand pronouns to indicate gender. so why is language malleable when it comes to redefining gender and pronouns but not when it comes to using orientation labels differently? also i read that carrd and want to clarify i would never make the argument that trans people aren't "really" the gender they id as. also, i'm sorry for asking so much but i'm just trying to understand.

--

hi dear! for context (x) and please don’t apologize for asking questions! there are so many people who would rather shut down and not try to understand, i will always greatly appreciate people who are actively trying to learn

also sorry this got wAY too long lmao i have a lot of thoughts, apparently...

as for the way the term bi/pan lesbian was presented to you, that’s totally understandable! and again, per my lil caveat, the idea of expressing a difference in romantic and sexual attraction with a single term (like being bi/pansexual but lesbian in terms of romantic attraction) is totally chill but i think the part that starts to come into question is the large movement of people who were using bi/pan lesbian in the way i described in my other post (ie as a way to express that they are “lesbian but with some attraction to men, still”)

in terms of how person A identifies and how that affects person B, the point is less about an individual interaction - no, how a stranger chooses to identify themself does not directly affect my identity. to your notion of demigirls and the fact that they don’t negate the identity of women, that’s totally true! it’s not so much that a person’s identity negates another’s, more that the words a person uses to identify themself can affect others, because we tie certain terms with certain experiences. by a group of people commandeering terminology that already has an experience tied to it, the people who already use that terminology (because they have that experience) can start to feel as though their experience and identity are being called into question

okay, so if bi/pan lesbians become a standard terminology to describe ppl who would id as lesbians if not for some attraction to men, that could start to bring into question whether all or any lesbians could be attracted to men (as the person in the tweet mentioned). now (certain) men may start to believe that any person who ids as a lesbian might still be attracted to men, so these certain men may think that they have a chance with that lesbian even though the man ids as a man! this could lead to harassment, or the lesbian in question may already be prone to some internalized homophobia. now they’re starting to wonder if their attraction should include men because they id as a lesbian (and apparently, lesbian could include attraction to men), or if they’ve just been ‘confused’, as people may have told them before, and they start to doubt their own identity and whether ‘lesbian’ is the right reflection of their experiences (which it is, except that the term has been hijacked and presented as including experiences that actually belong in the bi/pan community)

and, once again, the way the terminology is structured (a ‘bi/pan lesbian’) seems to imply that the person in question doesn’t want to be attracted to men. if they did, why not use an umbrella term like bi or pan as their identity? the only distinguishing feature here is that one is inclusive while the other says ‘i’m attracted to women primarily and would like to identify as a lesbian, except for that pesky bit of me that’s attracted to men too...’ again, this is a harmful ideology to let grow, not only for those already identifying as bi/pan but for baby queers who may not fully understand their own identities yet! or for people outside the community who are trying to understand to the best of their abilities as allies!

to that end, it also propagates that harmful rhetoric of ‘oof, doesn’t it suck to be attracted to men lmao’ like MAN that’s really hurtful to guys??? and that rhetoric already exists. notions like this (where a wonderful umbrella term is turned into something that seeks to minimize attraction to men/male-aligned genders) can be so harmful not only to cis men and transmasc/trans men who are a part of the community but men outside the community as well

okay with regards to pronouns: i think this is where we start to get into the deconstruction of gender as a social construct. i feel like the most apt analogy here is the one i provided in the other post: names. names have, throughout history, been gendered (for the most part). sally was a girl, timmy was a boy. but we’ve started to deconstruct that as we’ve started to recognize that there are more than 2 genders (as a societal whole, i’m aware that this hasn’t been news in a while for people in the queer community). you have names like alex, sam, riley, names that you can’t look at and go ‘ah, they are [certain] gender!’ which is awesome for everyone! esp for people who are sensitive about their gender identity and for whom it is bothersome, upsetting, or even triggering to be misgendered!

pronouns are grammatically just a substitute for a noun, they take the place of the noun for the sake of ease of speech/writing. so the first question here is why, if we’ve extrapolated and separated the idea of someone’s name from their gender and acknowledged that the thing that we refer to them by is just...a noise they like, then why is it necessary for pronouns (another thing that is just a noise the person likes) to be inherently tied to a gender? a gender is a representation of an experience, but people who use the same pronouns may have nothing in common in terms of their gender experience!

now, you could argue that people who use they/them pronouns may be able to rally around a shared experience/frustration with getting others to use and accept those pronouns, but they likely aren’t all going to share a gender - maybe some are fem-aligned, or masc-aligned, or genderfluid or agender or any other gender on the massive spectrum of possible gender identities. but the way that they ask others to refer to themselves purely as an individual does not help give any insight into their experiences or community! 

you stated that ‘as far as pronouns isn't the whole point that they ARE gendered?’, so my question here is what purpose do pronouns actually serve? they allow you to refer to a person without using their name, right? so if we’re talking outside the world of grammar, i would argue that a person’s pronouns are an extension of their name: the purpose of a name and/or pronouns is to ensure that they make the user of said name/pronouns comfortable in their identity when being referred to. they are whatever gender they are (if any at all) - they may choose a name and pronouns to help them feel more comfortable in who they are. in fact, they may choose a name and pronouns that they didn’t use from birth simply because they do not feel comfortable with them for non-gender-related reasons, too!

and i can hear you thinking ‘okay, so why can’t we do that with labels like sexuality and just let people use whatever feels okay?’ and this is sort of the way i think about it: there are certain words we have defined with clarity in order to help us as a community understand ourselves and each other. we all agree that cis = you are the gender you were assigned at birth, trans = you are not the gender you were assigned at birth. lesbian means attraction to women/fem-aligned genders, ace means feeling no sexual attraction, bi and pan are siblings of each other that define attraction to all genders (which may or may not include preferences). male and female as genders have clear enough meanings that we use them in our other definitions, and nonbinary is a lovely catch-all umbrella that can encompass anything outside ‘male’ and ‘female’, even though there are also more specific identities that fall under that umbrella

(quick aside - fwiw i don’t think gender definitions are necessarily malleable in the same way pronoun ‘definitions’ are, i think there are gender experiences that we have not yet given formal terms to and that people may switch around between existing gender identifying terms as they look for ones that get close to their own and i think there’s still a question of what it even means to be a certain gender without reference to other genders, but as it stands, people who identify with certain gender terms do so because of a set of shared experiences that fall underneath that gender term)

what we have not done is defined an individual’s right to their experiences. if someone feels attraction to all genders with a preference for men, there’s a word to express that! if a person feels like they might shift between a variety of genders on a regular basis, there’s a word for that! if a person does not feel romantic attraction, there’s a word for that! and the reason we use these words with pre-defined definitions is so that we can identify people who share our experiences - if someone identifies as a lesbian, they can seek out other lesbians and know that they are among a group that understands what they have been through or are going through. if someone experiences attraction to all genders with a female/fem-aligned preference, they are likely not going to find a community that understands their experiences if they look for people who identify as lesbian

but if a person decides that hey, i feel most myself when people call me ‘emma’ even though that wasn’t my assigned birth name, that is when we step back and say ‘yes, that’s awesome! you do you!’ because there is no pre-defined definition of that name - yes, there’s a societal gender often associated with it, but it doesn’t provide anyone any benefit to assign a definition of an experience to that name. nobody is out there going ‘where are all the ‘emmas’, the ‘emmas’ understand my experience and i want to find them so that i can feel as though i’m part of the ‘emma’ community’

now, idk about you, but if i hear that someone uses she/her pronouns, that means....almost nothing to me, except that i know that they prefer those pronouns! in the same way that someone saying ‘oh, my name is emma’ means nothing to me except that their name is emma! whereas if someone says to me, ‘i’m asexual’, i know from their choice of identifier that they fall under the ace umbrella and awesome, this person might understand how i feel about certain subjects! (obviously ace is a huge spectrum in itself, but you get the idea)

in summary:

an orientation or a gender relates to an individual’s experiences, and the general definitions we have assigned to certain orientations and genders should remain somewhat clearly-defined in order to provide a sense of community for those that fall under the orientation/gender in question. that is not to say that new orientations/gender terms can’t arise to describe new experiences that do not already have a definition. the irritation with the ‘bi/pan lesbian’ discourse is that the experience described (attraction to all genders with fem-aligned preference) already has a defined term (bi or pan) that is contradictory to the term ‘lesbian’

the reason pronouns don’t need to fall under a clear definition is that they are not a signal to indicate a uniting experience - their purpose and function is equivalent to that of a name: it’s a way to refer to a person that makes that person feel comfortable, and it’s perfectly fine not to have a rigid definition for pronouns in the same way that you wouldn’t assign a name to have a rigid experience or definition associated with it

i know it’s a long read, but i hope that helps clarify my thoughts on the matter!

[protego-et-servio]

(original post is below the cut. It was submitted to me.)

About kitbulls: 

I just went ahead and removed the post after this. Thank you for giving me posts and tumblr blogs to look into, as well.

Though, there is a discussion to be had here about allowing people the space to grow and time to come to terms with past problematic behavior. Especially as time passes between the problematic behavior and the current day. I can’t say whether this applies to kitbulls, since they haven’t spoken on the topic and I’m not really interested in scouring their blog.

As for the kink at pride discussion: 

I wasn’t specifically saying you were trying to allow it; it was a general discussion for the greater audience.

The link you provided about kink at Pride just rehashed the broken arguments to allow it. Let me just take the final reblog and bold the parts I’m talking about: 

The thing is this post is misleading. The pictures of the pop play folks aren’t from pride and the one with children carrying pride flags is photoshopped.

This is a problem that doesn’t exist. It’s just meant to devide the community and sow discord. That said, children are innocent. If a child saw that and asked you wouldn’t have to explain BDSM, just say they’re pretending to be doggies. It’s a grown up game. Let’s go over to the bounce castle for kids games.

That said, pup play is kink and people who aren’t comfortable with kink might not want to see it. It’s about sharing space and having boundaries that don’t cross over other people. One persons right to wear what they want vs another persons right to not see things that make them uncomfortable.

But where is the line where we can police how other people dress. Especially at pride where a big part of it is dressing how you want to dress.

They straight up say this isn’t a problem, when it is. This isn’t just about puppy play, but any sort of kink play being indulged in while in the public face of Pride, where minors are present. 

They talk about just simply explaining puppy play as adults pretending to be dogs, without critically acknowledging the fact that said adults do that as sexual play. And they’re trying to do that in front of minors, if not outright including minors. 

(Which is what happened to my kids when a man in a puppy mask approached them while acting like a puppy. Our Pride is relatively small, but I see puppy players do this a lot, specifically. If a puppy player just wants to walk around with a puppy mask, that’s fine; as soon as the puppy player begins acting like a puppy, especially to anyone underage, then it crosses a boundary.) 

This isn’t just a problem with LGBTQIA+ adults, but adults - as a whole - when it comes to interacting with minors in problematic ways. Especially when the adults refuse to take culpability and try to blame it on minors. 

(I’ve seen this recently in NSFW art communities. Like, there’s been grown adults commissioning 18+ art from minors and these adults try to turn around and say, “Well, the kid chose to be in an 18+ place!” They are literally trying to blame the minors for their bad actions.)

Going back to the post, they then marginalize people’s concerns as simply being about how people dress. Instead of about actions.

Yes, homophobic organizations are full of bullshit, but - in this case - they’ve highlighted a genuine problem at Pride. It’s like how conservatives accidentally post leftist sentiments when trying to argue against free healthcare. (ex: “Food should be free, because no one should starve” in response to “healthcare should be free, because no one should suffer.”)

hey I’m the anon who sent the ask about kitbulls

they were formerly known as gaypitbull and some other variations containing “gay”, “pitbull”, and “sjw”, and were a well known exclusionist at the height of discourse, and while they claim neutrality they still constantly engage with exclusionists and acephobic posts (“lol cringey aces” nonsense) like most people who claim to be “neutral”…. 

and for a long time palled around with a user named goblincourse who was cis and frequently spoke over trans people, in particular nonbinary people and saying terfy shit like that orientation is based on biological sex, not gender

but while they claim they have stopped doing that, kitbulls has been known to speak over nonbinary people on the issue of nonbinary attraction, claiming

- it is transphobic for bi people to not be attracted to men AND women, and that being attracted to men and nonbinary people or women and nonbinary people is transphobic,

- that only being attracted to nonbinary people is transphobic,

- the whole “women”/“men” lite nonsense such as that "if you are amab and attracted to women and fem-aligned nonbinary people you’re just straight and trying to sneak into the community"

- and that nonbinary people can’t call ourselves gay, etc etc sort of policing

https://yamchass.tumblr.com/tagged/cistrenders

this user’s tag talks about fuck-cistrenders, but it includes some of kitbulls shenanigans since the drama was related to them both, such as reblogging and supporting shit like this:

https://yamchass.tumblr.com/post/182766905515/can-i-have-sources-of-what-fuck-cistrenders-did-i#notes

As for the kink stuff, I didn’t say that shit never happens, what I said was that those specific pictures were from a staged event by homophobes. I can’t find the post that linked to the source, but it’s been debunked a few times in the notes (problem is that gets drowned in 100k notes). I’m not saying there should be kink or anything I’m just saying those specific pictures are faked.

https://cameoamalthea.tumblr.com/post/623655755711660032/someone-not-wanting-to-see-kink-shit-at-pride-is

And everywhere I go to find “real” pictures crops up massively homophobic sites, articles, etc.

[momma-mogai-sphinx]

Sapphogender & Achille/Vinciagender

Simply put: Someone who is sapphogender or achille/vinciagender is a nonbinary person who feels in some way that they are a wlw or mlm respectively, but who otherwise feels no attachments or alignment to femaleness/maleness and/or masculinity/femininity. The only way they can feel male/female(-aligned/adjacent/etc.) or masculine/feminine is through attraction to the same or similar genders.

These could fall under the condigender umbrella if the label user feels their gender is only/most present in certain circumstances (e.g. with a partner they experience sapphic or achillean/vincian attraction to).

-

Sapphogender - A wlw (/and nblw) who only experiences femaleness or anything of the like through their attraction to women & people of FIN/female-aligned genders. This person may be nonaligned or other-aligned, but they DO NOT feel any attachments to womanhood outside of this specific attraction. (They may also be attracted to men or other nbs.) This term can be coupled with any other gender identities that fit the label user as well; there may be specific terms the label user feels describes the female/fem-aligned aspect of their identity together with this term, as well as the rest of their identity outside of female/feminine alignment (for example, a sapphogender lunarian, who is otherwise an unaligned agender person).

Flag meaning:

The middle three stripes are the colors of the sapphic flag, while the outer purple stripes represent the otherwise non-female/feminine identity of the label user.

-

Achille/Vinciagender - An mlm (/and nblm) who only experiences maleness or anything of the like through their attraction to men & people of MIN/male-aligned genders. This person may be nonaligned or other-aligned, but they DO NOT feel any attachments to manhood outside of this specific attraction. (They may also be attracted to women or other nbs.) This term can be coupled with any other gender identities that fit the label user as well; there may be specific terms the label user feels describes the male/male-aligned aspect of their identity together with this term, as well as the rest of their identity outside of male alignment (for example, an achillegender demiboy, who is otherwise genderfae).

Flag meaning:

The middle three stripes are the colors of the achillean flag, while the outer purple stripes represent the otherwise non-male/masculine identity of the label user.

-

Also Note: These are related to, though not the same as sapphic- and achillean/vinciangender (when a sapphic or achillean/vincian person feels that their orientation is so intrinsically tied to their gender that they absolutely cannot separate the two; see: orientationgender).

HQ Downloads: (1) (2) (3) (4)

——

If you have any problems with either of these terms or flag designs, please let me know. I may take the post down & will certainly do my best to correct the issue.🦋