#this is about transandrophobia by the way

[ankles-be-bitten]

just so we're super duper crystal clear.

things i believe:

there is no point playing oppression olympics, and in real life most people understand this

trans women suffer from the hypervisibility they are subjected to

trans men suffer from the hypovisibility they are subjected to

transmisogyny as the sole descriptor of the intersection of transphobia and sexism is incomplete, which is why transandrophobia theory is both helpful and necessary to facilitate real, productive discussions about the bigotry the trans community as a whole faces

exorsexism and intersexism are also immensely important ideas separate but related to transmisogyny in ways that justify separation (however i am neither nonbinary nor intersex so neither are my area of expertise)

trans women and the work they have done for the queer community at large are incredibly important and deserving of recognition

nobody should feel the need to turn themself into a human shield simply because it is what is expected of men under the patriarchy

things i do not believe:

trans women are entitled, aggressive, evil people who universally want to subjugate trans men

the insanely high bar of expectations that trans women have to reach to be deemed "good enough" that frequently results in their lives being ruined over mild missteps is a good thing, actually

trans men are the most oppressed forever and trans women are the ones doing it, somehow

trans men owe everything they have to trans women as a monolith because many of the most prominent trans rights activists historically have been transfeminine people

you cannot claim i am making a bad faith argument and then put words into my mouth. forgive me if my sleep deprived, frustration induced plea for some kind of legitimate explantion wasn’t a paragon of understanding and empathy. it's almost as though being told your whole life you have nothing of value to bring to the table and then seeing your experience constantly misrepresented and idealized is an emotionally taxing experience.

my father didn't describe to me in detail the corrective rape fantasies he has about me getting pregnant and stopping my transition to be the meek little goodwife he wants me to be just so i can come online and see my own community wax poetic about how transmasculinity is never punished under patriarchy.

idk, i just feel like if your primary argument against transandrophobia/antitransmasculinity theory is that you think it's transmisogynistic you're not being intellectually honest. who does it hurt when trans men and mascs coin a term to describe the intersection of transphobia and sexism as it most frequently affects them? because it does hurt trans men when they're told that they're not entitled to speak on the discrimination they themselves face.

what I'm hearing from people who oppose the antitransmasculinity movement is that transmisogyny is when trans men talk about their problems 👍, but obviously that's not true. i know that's not true. you know that's not true. so then what is the issue? genuinely, enlighten me. you want trans men to shut up and listen? I'm listening.

[velvetvexations]

it's so frustrating to me the way so much of this discourse revolves around "well you're more privileged than me so you don't get to talk about this" when if you're going by that metric statistically the trans people that are most at risk are always going to be sex workers, and especially trans poc who are sex workers, and the majority of the people talking about this not only do not make room for them in discussion or effectively extend any sense of community with them (i feel it's worth noting that the man of color who coined transandrophobia in the first place wrote content for other people's kinks on commission, which is effectively a category of sex work, and this was actively weaponized against hymn and spun in a way that allowed for hymn to very quickly be, to use popular language in this discourse, "unpersoned" and even chased out of the community for a while), they're happy to co-opt their suffering by pointing at hate crime statistics while conveniently leaving out that a huge number of the victims were sex workers. and now to see some of them pulling the "well of course i'm white and well-off, because you don't listen to less privileged people!!" card when they act this way, like. the sheer dissonance and lack of self-awareness is revolting

yeah lmao I nearly screamed laughing when I saw them saying "of course it's all affluent White women yelling at MoC, we have to because they silenced all the WoC!"

[idwl]

nonbinary and unconventionally trans people deserve to be cared about more.

honestly, the amount of erasure we're going through recently is insane. and it feels like even other trans people are trying to turn a blind eye. i feel so invisible as a trans person because i'm not trans in a conventional way. i'm bigender and nonbinary and ambonec and agender. i never see people like me having voices in conversations about transandrophobia, or transmisogyny, and barely even just transphobia as a whole.

not to mention how lately, it feels nonbinary people are shoved into "basically transfem" and "basically transmasc" boxes once more. bigender people, agender people, we're not allowed to be ourselves. some of you assign us all to a binary no matter how hard we fight against it. we're treated as Women Lite��️ or, on the rare occasion, Man Lite™️

how many times do nonbinary people need to fight to be recognized? how long will our struggle remain unheard? how many more discussions will be had that decenter us?

because as a trans man who's also a woman, i'm tired of being ignored in the conversation about trans men experiencing misogyny

as a trans man who's nonbinary, i'm tired of being ignored in conversations about degendering and transandrophobia

im sure there are trans women who feel the same. im sure there are nonbinary trans women, and trans women who are also men, who are sick of being decentered

include us. ftm trans people and mtf trans people aren't the only trans people that exist and we'd really appreciate if you could all stop your pissing contest over who has it worse and try to uplift the lesser seen trans folk, too. because while all discussions from all perspectives are important, while all trans people deserve a space and to be seen, it feels like you're all forgetting that this also goes for nonbinary people. it feels like in an attempt to become more visible, you're shutting us out

[arsenenicholas]

As much as i am glad that people have been talking about transandrophobia and how its a real thing, i don't love how a lot of these conversation seem to be saying "trans men are viewed and socialized as female* so they deal with misogyny too, but in a different way that intersects with them being trans" and not "trans men deal with complex gender-based discrimination that is unique to them".

Because not all the discrimination we face is tied to mysogyny. Not all of us are going to be assumed to be women, not all of us were socialised as women. We also get treated like failed men. We are said to be predators/violent because of testosterone. We are also told to "man up" and not wear make-up, skirts, other "feminine" things and be a real man, because if we don't try to fit into the worlds narrow view of masculinity, we're not real men. These things affect trans men in a unique way and aren't tied to misogyny, and the people who are quick to tie our oppression to "being viewed as women" often sound transphobic. What is your obsession with finding a way we are like women?

Obviously im not saying that tras men cant have to deal with misogyny. But its not the only fucking thing we deal with and it sure as hell isnt what transandrobia is.

*also, to anyone making this kind of statement, please know you are being transphobic. Making the assumption that trans men are viewed as women is transphobic. So is the fucking female socialisation thing. Though gendered socialisation is a thing, it doesn't work the way people seem to thing it works. Trans and gnc ppl are socialised in a different way than gc cis ppl, usually with violence towards our perceived non-comformity, and trans people will often internalise the gender we were taught to be differently to cis ppl (if at all. In my experience i was far more impacted by how i was told boys acted (eg boys dont cry, men work to support their wife and kids, men are only supposed to feel anger) than how i was taught that i, "as a girl" should act).

[lordhavemercyyyyy]

actually yeah

I wanted to do it in tags because some people like my blog for my raging autism about fictional turtles, fish, and Deadpool but don't like the serious stuff, so I wanted to keep it easier to skip past

I am a trans man. I consistently defend use of the term transandrophobia because it applies to me, and I am an avid supporter of intersex people. I would not be surprised if I am marked red because of those things.

Literally look through the tag for shinigami eyes and find some of the stories and screenshots people have posted of what they saw flagged as green or red that should be the opposite. Some of it is absolutely horrific.

I hate the platform with a passion. It is biased and shutting down anyone that isn't a "trans-inclusive radical feminist" (which btw get the fuck off the Internet and go touch grass, you're pushing essentialism either way and nobody likes that bullshit)

I literally just have to tag the fucking post as shinigami eyes-related and you can find ALL OF IT ON THERE. FUCK.

say whatever you want but until i see legitimate concrete proof shinigami eyes isn't a useful extension and is instead just randomly marking people red i'm always gonna take criticism of it with a grain of salt. bc so far almost every blog i've seen say shit about getting accidentally marked Also Hates Trans Women Really Bad But Is Just Slightly Subtler About It

[eisthenameofme]

love when it gets to the point of The Discourse where i feel the need to key word search otherwise chill people's blogs for rampant bigotry before following them. Like this isn't exactly what happened with 'ace discourse'

[trans-androgyne]

I read too many stories of "women" throughout history who lived as men and wore men's clothing getting beaten and arrested for it, sensationalized in the press as "man-woman," painted as perverts and monsters, put in literal freakshows, and forcibly institutionalized to sit by quietly while non-transmascs loudly and confidently claim that "female masculinity" has never been targeted as much as "male femininity" has. Read some trans and queer history that isn't only about gay men and trans women before you open your mouths about butches and transmascs, or better yet just listen to us about our history and experiences in the first place.

[kingkrillin]

just need to share how much I dislike this post lol

people will fully expect trans men to put ourselves on the line for everyone else and meanwhile the only time they acknowledge our existence is to talk about how "low risk" we are (obviously untrue) or to volunteer us out as a community for potentially dangerous activist endeavors that they wouldn't risk doing themselves

"we need to get uncomfortable!" and what's actually being discussed is convincing a subset of the community to be uncomfortable on your behalf while you do nothing to show solidarity with us

[pinbones]

I've seen a few posts about women and pants now and many of them are very good, and not to nitpick those posts or downplay religious sexism or anything, but I have to emphasise:

Somebody who DOESN'T live in a controlling religious country/cult/family is also affected by sexism. We all know that, right? Secular parts of the first world also have opinions about how women dress, including when it comes to trousers, especially in childhood and in institutions like schools and the workplace

Me and many people my age (20s) remember being forced into skirts, punished and shamed by parents & teachers & peers & possibly then bosses about what we wear not being feminine enough, and it wasn't by deeply religious sects. Many updates to dress codes are very new and sexist views are still in place in many institutions. Normalised societal misogyny wants women (and people they want to treat as women) to dress femininely, down to what KIND of pants they're allowed to wear (compare a pink top and jeggings to mens jeans and tell me these two women are treated the same. Hating women in pantsuits is still a sexist office joke today, and even those outfits are feminine compared to male suits, which raise eyebrows when worn by women). The women I know who wear trousers regularly are literally otherwise feminine, and all wear dresses to events.

I know trousers have become much more normalised over the past few decades in secular society (yay!! the result of many many years of effort and lawbreaking) but let's not be absolute when we talk about the pants concept lol. Especially within a larger conversation about female/transmasc/intersex/transfem masculinity and social perceptions, especially in an age of rising fascism

[gettinontopic]

What do you think about the word transemasculation? People are suggesting it as an alternative to transandrophobia.

I don't like transemasculation bc as a black man they dont always emasculate me, sometimes they over-masculinate me to make me seem dangerous 💀 its not accurate to me experience as a black nonbinary person and I'll be sticking to transandrophobia, personally.

[velvetvexations]

i remember years ago, devon price made a post talking about a novel about a trans character. I really related to it, to the way the book described the trans experience. even though the author and character were trans women and i was not, I connected to it over shared trans experience.

I remember then being slightly put off by price's description of the book including something about how the book isn't really for "tmes" and we just need to sit and listen and not contribute.

it was this sort of strange moment for me, because it felt like I was being denied what had been this very wonderful moment of connection between trans people who were more similar than we were different.

i didn't think much of it at the time, this was before all this discourse and it seemed like a weird one-off thing, but I think of it now when I see how he talks about transandrophobia.

I think about how this separation works to kill solidarity and connection between trans people. when support becomes one-sided, it is weakened. we lack the strength of a unified group. your liberation is bound up in mine. when we construct a rigid no-man's-land between our experiences and identities, our connection becomes sterile. there is no life capable of flourishing in these conditions. there is none of the colour and music and beauty that always made me love being trans so much. if anyone gives without receiving, listens without being listened to, in time they will dry up.

bitterly, this also comes with the realization that price's denials of trans masc oppression run deeper than I initially remembered.

if something I had wrote had a fucking trans man going "we all need to be quiet and listen to the nice twans wady" I would scream lmao like shut the fuck up you pretentious little loser I'm trying to connect to people not distribute a manifesto but I wish you luck on some day translating your chivalry into sex

[jellyfemmedyke]

Trans men and women tend to get viewed as either disgusting male freaks or perfect feminine female goddesses based entirely on identity and vibes alone, forcing trans men to either detranstion to talk about the issues faced, or shut up and hate themselves and grovel at the feet of their "betters", and trans women are forced to preform the highest standards of femininity or be shunned and live in fear of being cast out and not being "woman enough" facing the constant need to prove themselves to avoid being seen as interlopers. these things are similar, these problems overlap, and yet people go on to pretend that one is the most victimized victim and the other is the "subjector and oppressor" (Interchangeable) and neither can truly understand the other. these ideas being perpetuated by others within and outside of these groups. It drives me up the wall that there are people pretending this helps anyone, that either benefits from the others oppression in anyway. Personally, from what I've seen a lot of it comes out as like gender insecurity, from the inside groups, which is pretty sad, but also extremely frustrating to be lashed out at for being unwilling to accept this gender essentialist false binary

[trash-and-trash-accessories]

Constantly citing this article and the studies it uses.

Here's a quote:

"That study shows that transmasculine individuals were actually more likely to be victims of childhood sexual assault, adult sexual assault, dating violence, domestic violence, and stalking than were transfeminine individuals (as shown in the chart below).

The only category in which trans women were more likely to be victimized was by hate violence, and even there the difference was small: 30 percent of trans women reported having experienced hate violence, compared to 29 percent of trans men."

[lycandrophile]

at this point i don’t even have any commentary to add to this. i’m just tired.

[bisexualfagdyke]

I cant believe people on here actually think you are a bigot for *checks notes* thinking that trans men are oppressed for being trans men and have unique experiences with transphobia

[trans-androgyne]

Touching on the history of transmasculinity some more, here are some usually derogatory terms that have historically been used for people considered masculine women (due to gender presentation, sexuality, or both, as sapphism and transmasculinity are conflated):

Tribade: Comes from the Ancient Greek concept of "tribadism" (scissoring/rubbing genitals together), especially descriptive of masculine women who use a dildo to penetrate other women

Tom/Tommy (as early as 1773): "Tom" originally referring to masculine prostitutes and women who prefer to associate with only women; often used for women considered sexually aggressive or otherwise "loose"

(Female) Invert (from 1860s): Based on the pathologizing concept of "sexual inversion," which proposed that there was essentially a continuum of "perverts" with sexual/gender deviants from femmes who prefer women but would also have sex with men to "true inverts" who feel themselves to be men trapped in female bodies; often associated with sexual aggression

Bulldyke/Dyke (from 1920s): Especially describing lesbians considered more masculine in appearance, believed by some scholars to come from a word meaning hermaphrodite

Lezzie/Lesbo (from 1930s): Shortenings of lesbian often used in a derogatory manner and applied to people who "look like lesbians" regardless of their actual sexuality

And of course, slang terms like "carpet muncher," "muff diver," and "bean flicker" have been used to describe lesbian sex, and often applied to anyone seen as a woman who liked women