#this is about transandrophobia by the way

[autolenaphilia]

OP is a crypto-terf, who constantly whines about how trans women talking about transmisogyny and how cis-feminism reinforces it takes away from the discussion of the oppression of real wombyn.

I noticed because this post is about corsets, and that's a particular bugbear of this crowd. It's not as strong an indicator as being weirdly anti-porn or sex work, but it's definitely a common talking point i noticed.

She even defended transmisandry (the precursor to transandrophobia), as a way to discuss "the experiences of female people", and accusing people criticizing it of misogyny, (Which she clearly defines as sex-based oppression). The transandrodork/terf alliance is so real.

You're so right, queen. Women had complete bodily autonomy forever and anybody who says maybe corsets were bad is lying. Our society has a heedless misconception that dismantling femininity is cool when actually femininity is so special and important and valid, and we absolutely must encourage women to essentialize their oppression by inscribing it on their bodies. Go off.

[eisthenameofme]

love when it gets to the point of The Discourse where i feel the need to key word search otherwise chill people's blogs for rampant bigotry before following them. Like this isn't exactly what happened with 'ace discourse'

[trans-androgyne]

I read too many stories of "women" throughout history who lived as men and wore men's clothing getting beaten and arrested for it, sensationalized in the press as "man-woman," painted as perverts and monsters, put in literal freakshows, and forcibly institutionalized to sit by quietly while non-transmascs loudly and confidently claim that "female masculinity" has never been targeted as much as "male femininity" has. Read some trans and queer history that isn't only about gay men and trans women before you open your mouths about butches and transmascs, or better yet just listen to us about our history and experiences in the first place.

[we-are-ninety-nine-cents]

I think you raise a good point in terms of there not being a word specifically combating transandrophobia, while feminists have a word for combating anti-feminism. However, does transunitism not also cover a similar purpose as antigonism? That term is specifically about having all trans people as one community, and not letting ourselves be fractured within. I've seen it used by lots of transmascs as a way to say they want to bridge the divide that's been caused by trans radical feminism.

Most of the criticism I've seen for the term antigonism is that it may cause unnecessary fractures even further, putting people into teams. Of course, since similar rhetoric has been used against the term transandrophobia, it'd be hypocritical to simply believe it, but at the same time I don't really understand why the specific term needs to exist.

(Not trying to be confrontational, if this does then I apologize. I really value all the things you say and think you're a very intelligent person! Just adding my own questions.)

my personal take on "antigonism" is that it's entirely what you make of it. which is to say, i agreed with your post explaining why you felt such a term was necessary, and i do think this mentality of "most of us are normal about each other" and simply assuming we understand each other's experiences by virtue of being trans is reinventing artificial gender solidarity between cis people ("bros before hoes", "girl's girl") but superimposed onto trans people. which can be particularly contentious, given that we're an extremely traumatized bunch with a lot of baggage and massively diverging perspectives on all kinds of things. relating to each other outside of conventional gender relations means we have to put in that much more work to bridge the gaps between us, because we can no longer rely on the common assumptions made about men and women to carry our interactions, if that makes sense.

i do think a whole word for transfem-to-transmasc solidarity does toe a line between being unnecessarily inflammatory and conditionally useful. i'm genuinely glad for the people who felt seen and appreciated by the fact that a transfem made so explicit her stance on intracommunity issues. i'm also sympathetic to the people who feel put-off by such a word. when does allyship become chauvinistic? there is no word for a non-misogynistic man to signal to women that he is explicitly anti-antifeminist, for example. do we need one? i think a vast majority would say no, on account of simply stating he believes in feminist principles to suffice. so i'm wondering what specifically the push was for you to coin a word around tfem4tmasc solidarity, because while i do think trans people as a whole need to take significantly more initiative about rooting out transmisogyny and transandrophobia both, i'm not quite clear on what could signal more clearly a transfem's stance on intracommunity dialogue than just saying "i believe in transandrophobia and condemn all radfems". all feminism, transfeminism included, has had their malicious actors-- the existence of transradfems isn't really anything noteworthy as far as the broader feminist conversations go.

i hope this doesnt come across as confrontational because i think the people who found comfort in the fact that you are willing to go that far for them is truly heartwarming. i just don't want to see us splinter further into microfactions over something like one person coining one maybe-overenthusiastic word on the internet

Sincerely, there is a word for men who are anti-anti-feminist, though, they're feminists. Granted, self-identified "feminist" men have somewhat of a negative stereotype associated to them, but still, feminist men are feminists.

One of the biggest reasons I think a term would be useful is because so many people feel unsafe in the trans community because of trans radical feminism right now that it can help them relax a lot when they see a trans woman identifies as such. Just reminding people with assurances that most trans women are Normal doesn't really help that when they keep running into ones who aren't over and over.

TRFs are aggressive about this stuff. Seriously, every single day, post after post, their primary form of activism is crying about TMEs stealing kinks and liking a children's toy too much. I feel strongly that should be countered. Even if they aren't the majority, they sure as hell act like it and repeat how great it is that every single trans woman except velvetvexations alone agrees with them.

To be absolutely clear, I do not think I'm the only non-weird trans woman! That is just literally what they say about me! They may be the minority now but that frog is boiling.

IRL transmascs are forced out of spaces and talked over when they're let in because mascuwinity is scawy, No doubt transfems have similar problems because some spaces are TERF-y, but that problem is exacerbated when social media is filled with TRF rhetoric because it gets drilled into people's heads they need to be worried about that, and I don't think "touch grass" is a good response to that.

Hell, what if someone touches grass and then they do happen to end up having people be transandrophobic/exorsexist/intersexist/etc. to them? "Oh, well, that didn't count, try again somewhere else, I prommy that's not Normal."

It's all about volume. I feel very, very strongly that volume is necessary here, to combat the feeling that that radical feminism is around every corner and help people feel at ease and know trans women are with them.

[faggy--butch]

Trans men and women tend to get viewed as either disgusting male freaks or perfect feminine female goddesses based entirely on identity and vibes alone, forcing trans men to either detranstion to talk about the issues faced, or shut up and hate themselves and grovel at the feet of their "betters", and trans women are forced to preform the highest standards of femininity or be shunned and live in fear of being cast out and not being "woman enough" facing the constant need to prove themselves to avoid being seen as interlopers. these things are similar, these problems overlap, and yet people go on to pretend that one is the most victimized victim and the other is the "subjector and oppressor" (Interchangeable) and neither can truly understand the other. these ideas being perpetuated by others within and outside of these groups. It drives me up the wall that there are people pretending this helps anyone, that either benefits from the others oppression in anyway. Personally, from what I've seen a lot of it comes out as like gender insecurity, from the inside groups, which is pretty sad, but also extremely frustrating to be lashed out at for being unwilling to accept this gender essentialist false binary

[trash-and-trash-accessories]

Constantly citing this article and the studies it uses.

Here's a quote:

"That study shows that transmasculine individuals were actually more likely to be victims of childhood sexual assault, adult sexual assault, dating violence, domestic violence, and stalking than were transfeminine individuals (as shown in the chart below).

The only category in which trans women were more likely to be victimized was by hate violence, and even there the difference was small: 30 percent of trans women reported having experienced hate violence, compared to 29 percent of trans men."

[lycandrophile]

at this point i don’t even have any commentary to add to this. i’m just tired.

[bisexualfagdyke]

I cant believe people on here actually think you are a bigot for *checks notes* thinking that trans men are oppressed for being trans men and have unique experiences with transphobia

[thebutchtheory]

the more i read about transandrophobia as a concept from 'transandrophobia truthers', the more i just end up feeling like these specific experiences are better explained under things like 'gender essentialism' or 'oppositional sexism', or that at the very least these terms need to be brought into discussion of transandrophobia more, but they aren't.

a lot of transandrobros end up coming off like MRAs because they're trying to describe experiences that they don't have proper wording for, and then go on to speak in ways that clearly shows they haven't unlearned [internalized] misogyny/toxic masculinity, gender essentialism and oppositional sexism themselves. often because they haven't read any theory on the subject, and because a lot of them outright refuse to read up on transfeminist theory or understand transmisogyny as a systemic force outside of 'misogyny that trans women experience' or 'transphobia that trans women experience'. then they go on to try and talk over trans women about transmisogyny, or speak about trans women discussing transmisogyny in some extremely bigoted ways because of it.

like, the amount of trans women discussing transmisogyny who have read or even written entire books about transmisogyny, transfeminism and feminism in general seems to be astronomical compared to the amount of trans men discussing transandrophobia that i KEEP seeing. i've seen trans men who have read theory, but they seem to be the bigger popular bloggers that others base their opinions off of, if that makes sense. as if other people in the community are trying to theorize on what people who have actually read theory are saying, without reading any theory themselves.

so much of what transmascs experience is related to misogyny, but it's also related to gender essentialism, oppositional sexism, and toxic masculinity--all things which the trans community has taken from cisgender heterosexual society and applied it to themselves in a way that is Queer Inclusive This Time, yet they never question it.

i'm BEGGING transandrophobia truthers to read books about trans oppression, and to bring this language into your vocabulary when discussing your experiences. when i started doing that with my experiences as a butch on T, it gave me a new perspective on all of it, and the queer community itself.

[spiltcandycoatedpunkblood]

ngl being a trans man and being sidelined in the media and being treated as 'brainwashed little girls' or 'privileged aggressive men' pisses me off so much, especially with how the gender binary and essentialism is wrapped up in progressive or patronising language. it is depressing to see the media portray trans women as predators, nonbinary people as 'special little snowflakes' and trans men as brainwashed girls generally forgotten about. none of us are benefitting from this except the societal structure that the media is a part of. I do not gain privilege as a man because my transness exists. I don't know if it's just me, but there is an unspoken level of transandrophobia that people just don't want to acknowledge.

[gettinontopic]

This is so transphobic like what the hell is this

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[Image Id: A large addition to a tumblr poat reading "Also if I'm going to be honest, passing as a man is also just easier than passing as a woman. The rules to being a man and passing as a man are much more lenient than being a woman or passing as a woman. Trans women have to worry about shit like "I need to wear an outfit that distracts people from the fact I have an adams apple, and not allow people to see that I have shoulders, and learn makeup and basically become a voice actor and etc. and maybe I won't be called a man today" (and if you pass too well and the wrong cis guy feels guilty about being attracted to you, you get murdered meanwhile if you're a trans guy and you wanna pass as a man, you gotta like have short hair and hide or remove your boobs and at this point you can already just go to the grocery store and most people will see you as a man. Once you get facial hair and a deeper voice, most people will just see you as some guy. Like I don't understand why transmascs insist on this idea that they could never really pass. Like the idea that trans man who passes is almost far-fetched. Weird as hell." End Id]

Lets upack this shall we?

1."Passing as a man is easier than passing as a woman"

No it's not. The rules to being a man and passing as a men as strict as lots of rules for women. Have you ever seen a cis guys who fails to pass? They're called names, theyre physically beat, and theyre often ostracized from their cis peers just as fast as any trans person. Cis boys cant even pass half the time by the rules they made. Quit fucking lying about men just magically having it so easy.

Your experiences as passing as a man aren't universal and if you've never passed as one what makes you think it's fucking easy?

Also god forbid you're a black man, or a black man who is into something deemed feminine. Shit I've seen guys call black men women for wearing a damn hair bonnet.

Oh not to mention I'm only a man to transphobes when they can call me a "dangerous black man" only to switch back to tryibg to detransition me by saying "you can just be a masc girl!"

2.Adams apple

While you have to hide yours, I have to wear shit that distracts people that I *don't* have one. Cause, and I know this is wild, if they expect you not to have one for being a women, what do they expect me to have for being a man? Hmm? And if you're a man who's adams apple never came in? I've seen them called girls to. Shit I've heard a guy called not manly for missing his, and he was still in puberty!!

3.Shoulders

While you have to hide you shoulders, I have to do whatever I can to have the.. small shoulders on men? maybe if youre in a "non manly" field like music or art, but I do gym work. I better look likeit regardless of the disability that effacts my muscles growth and development or I am called maam by every guy there. Which sucks btw.

4. Makeup and voice acting:

Trans men also are regularly advised to wear makeup that masculinizes them and do voice training. thats some of our oldest passing tips. thats litterally never been unique to trans women. what the FUCK kinda of implications are you trying to put out here?

5. Murder:

Hey did you know cis guys will murder trans men bc they were attracted to them and then found out they werent "real men" and then kill them. shit cis women also kill us if they find out they were attracted to us and we aren't their ideal man anymore. do u know how men who hear im butch and into women behave?

Fuck right the fuck off trying to tokenize the murder lf trans women while throwing trans men murders in the "that doesn't happen" bin.

6. How many times have we said short hair and no boobs dont fucking automatically gets us gendered correcly!! We have voices that have to be trained, we have muscles were expected to build,and some men even watch the way you walk to guess if you have a dick or not.

Listen to any trans men. any of us for five minutes. those things do not making an easily passing trans man fuck you for lying about our experiences as not a trans man.

7. "You gotta like have short hair or remove your boobs"

Untrue! just Untrue. we also have to preform the rules of manhood really well. ive seen beareded transmen clocked for like so many different other reasons and you wouldn't listen to those men if it would save all trans people lives forever. cis men constantly dig at other men presentation to keep each other in line. Its a regular for them.

Also: not all of want to pass with those features. I deserve to have long hair and not bind and still pass as a man and you suck for defining everything around passing.

8. I don't know why you insist on this idea that trans women never really pass without obscene work (when ive met trans women that admit they have it easy by throwing on a dress and wearing her hair down) and that all trans men who have ascess to transition magically do pass (When multiple of us transitioning have said we dont)

If we can't talk about the ones who don't pass then you kinda can just sweep away the idea we don't face discrimination or danger and that's getting us killed actually.

None of us have said we can all never really pass any who say they can't are usually speaking on their own experiences. Because you want us all to pass so bad you don't care that we don't, and that it gets us backlash and hurt.

Also, if you ever read this, kiss my black ass and go reevaluate what makes you think you should speak on experiences that aint yours as if you're the one with the Hard Cold Facts.

[a-polite-melody]

I love how much the arguments I see against transandrophobia boil down to, even if not directly stated, the idea that “trans man” is not an intersectional experience.

The idea that if you’re a man, regardless of anything else, you will be afforded male privilege. And that apparently it’s “third gendering” trans men to deny this.

And the idea that all of the actual oppression experienced by trans men comes from the trans aspect. And apparently it’s “misgendering” trans men to deny this because you’re implying they aren’t men if their oppression comes from anywhere else.

And that these two parts of a trans man’s identity will never influence one another. That the transness and the manness are always treated as two separate and distinct parts of the trans man’s identity and how his experiences will manifest.

Which can only really make sense if you’re bogged down in the pure theory of it all and refuse to listen to trans men and mascs telling you that this contradicts our actual lived experiences because if it contradicts the pure theory it simply cannot be.

And how much that shows a fundamental lack of understanding of intersectionality on top of the willingness to throw away anything that contradicts you as something not worth engaging with, something entirely made up by the TMRAs to pretend to be oppressed by trans women, how much that’s already a foregone conclusions before interacting with us and hearing what we’re actually saying.

[velvetvexations]

Thinking about it, I really need someone to explain to me why AMAB non-binary people aren't considered to be victims of misdirected transmisogyny that affects them merely because they were misidentified as a trans woman. Can someone do that for me? Anyone? Is there a transradfem who doesn't have me blocked or who I haven't blocked for harassment that can illuminate me on that point?

[trans-androgyne]

Touching on the history of transmasculinity some more, here are some usually derogatory terms that have historically been used for people considered masculine women (due to gender presentation, sexuality, or both, as sapphism and transmasculinity are conflated):

Tribade: Comes from the Ancient Greek concept of "tribadism" (scissoring/rubbing genitals together), especially descriptive of masculine women who use a dildo to penetrate other women

Tom/Tommy (as early as 1773): "Tom" originally referring to masculine prostitutes and women who prefer to associate with only women; often used for women considered sexually aggressive or otherwise "loose"

(Female) Invert (from 1860s): Based on the pathologizing concept of "sexual inversion," which proposed that there was essentially a continuum of "perverts" with sexual/gender deviants from femmes who prefer women but would also have sex with men to "true inverts" who feel themselves to be men trapped in female bodies; often associated with sexual aggression

Bulldyke/Dyke (from 1920s): Especially describing lesbians considered more masculine in appearance, believed by some scholars to come from a word meaning hermaphrodite

Lezzie/Lesbo (from 1930s): Shortenings of lesbian often used in a derogatory manner and applied to people who "look like lesbians" regardless of their actual sexuality

And of course, slang terms like "carpet muncher," "muff diver," and "bean flicker" have been used to describe lesbian sex, and often applied to anyone seen as a woman who liked women

[transyashiro]

hey you're a good artist and a generally good person but highkey throwing out posts regarding transandrophobia and trans men who may use the term that are really long and inscrutable to anyone not already involved in whatever discourse carousel is not really fun to see. i talk to trans guys in my real life and i've literally never even seen the word "transandrophobia" outside of tumblr. i don't think it needs litigating, and you're more likely just exposing an audience that very likely may not be familiar with whatever is going on there to some random, kinda extreme opinion for which they have just genuinely no reference point.

(that and, like, intersectionality exists and is useful and none of those posts ever use the word intersectionality ever so idk how useful their analyses actually are without that)

i'm pretty sure many transfems who follow me and all happen to be on the same damn site are aware of discussions of transandrophobia and transmisogyny in general, or ""discourse carousel"" as you called it, happening here. i can see my notes, you know. those of them who are uninterested in these posts for whatever reason can simply ignore them. and i genuinely don't give a fuck about trans guys who might find any of this offensive or worth getting defensive over. also, i happen to be a person with opinions and at the end of the day it's up to me if i want to make my position clear by reblogging something (that i know will resonate with a good chunk of my followers too, whom you for some reason decided to paint as ignorant). not sure what you were hoping to accomplish by sending me this, it's not like anyone's forcing you to follow me, nor is it your position to tell me what to put on my own blog

[lycandrophile]

every time i scroll through twitter, i start taking screenshots of the anti-transmasculinity i come across before eventually giving up because it’s so overwhelmingly constant right now that i have no idea where to even begin talking about it.

i’ve seen less people talking about a cis mom selling instructions for the DIY conversion therapy she used on her trans son for $1200 than i have people just endlessly shitting on trans men for the crime of existing in the trans community. do you get how fucked up that is? do you see why i’m at a loss at this point? how do we convince the world to stop abusing and traumatizing us if our own community would rather spend its time berating us than caring about how many of our parents are willing to drop thousands on their efforts to beat the transness out of us?

i honestly wish i had the skills and resources to properly study whatever the fuck has been going on lately. like, is all this just because we’ve gotten louder? is that what this is — a bunch of assholes who were hiding in our community, counting on trans men&mascs to stay easy for them to ignore, who can’t stand the fact that more of us are being outspoken about our experiences? is there some other factor playing into it? it’s the kind of thing that gets me curious, and i want to look deeper into it and really understand it.

but man, as curious as i am on an intellectual level, it sure is hard to think clearly enough about it to do that kind of work. like how do you read someone saying (and yes, this is a direct quote) “everything that improves the lives of trans men is paid for by making the lives of trans women worse�� and not just want to throw your phone into the nearest volcano?