#this is about transandrophobia by the way

[endykelopaedia]

really wanna have a real read somewhere about concepts like transandrophobia because i wanna believe theres a better way to talk about discrimination against transmascs that isnt just like a reactionary kickback to transfems describing their experiences. but like whenever i look it up its always some shit about how trans women are hating on & silencing trans men & also feminism made men seek comfort in the right which are totally normal things to say & think & feel about women guys. what are we doing

[pingintech]

when we talk about transmisogyny or misogyny in general its good to remember that misogyny also negatively affects men and transmisogyny negatively affects men and for exactly the reasons youve outline for not performing masculinity or maleness correctly that is a belief rooted in misogyny and a hatred of femininity in any way when theyre barred from male spaces are reduced to their genitals or denied job opportunities because of their birth gender or the only communities that accept them claim to be for women and trans people only denoting trans people as women lite or their medical issues are blamed on their gender that is because of transmisogyny it is a kind of transphobia rooted in oppressing perceived womanhood and perceived femininity and trans men are often victims of this

i cant speak for all transandrophobia truthers tm there are plenty that are deeply invested in the dark corners of mens rights activism that are secretly just incel shit but there is a significant number of trans masc people i know who use the word transandrophobia instead of transmisogyny simply because they want a way to talk about their specific set of problems or they feel like their gender is invalidated by calling their struggles the result of transmisogyny

the thing about transmisandry truthers is that they genuinely believe that trans women hold some level of gendered power over them, which is provably false.

[ventbloglite]

"I actively block trans mascs if they reblog posts about transandrophobia." - haha you're so funny for disliking an oppressed group for talking about their oppression because it makes you personally uncomfortable to acknowledge it :) Co-opts the antisemetic 'truthers' insult and misuses the 'white baby' format to insult trans mascs who speak up - you're sooo right for doing this, you are such a good person sticking it to bad people for doing this, it's not infantilising or terrible at all that you consider the only 'good ones' the ones who accept their oppression without complaint :)

"Transandrophobia is just an excuse to be transmisogynistic!" - you're so right bestie, trans mascs just love pretending to get murdered, SA'd, outcast and oppressed because it's fun, all those reports and stats are just part of a larger conspiracy, you're so clever for picking up the secret 'I hate trans women code' in statements like 'Transphobia affects me in this specific way due to my being a trans man and I wish that I did not have to suffer through this'.

"You only have an issue with the TMA/TME stuff because you're being forced to confront the fact that you are part of the privileged patriarchy when you convinced yourself you were actually the opposite." - hahaha soooo funny to tell an oppressed marginalised person that they are actually the oppressors due to specifically being men! This is absolutely not a flawed worldview which absolutely allows the current oppressive system to justify itself based on your agreement that men/women have a specific non-overlaping set of experiences in which women will always be victims and all men will always want to and actively oppress them.

It's almost like you're judging them for specifically being people who have transitioned towards masculinity/manhood, that you specifically do not understand how being trans impacts someone's manhood namely denying them systemic power (whether they'd ever choose to wield it or not), it's almost like you've buildt up all these little lying predjudices in order to justify saying nasty things about trans mascs and calling for them to be silenced, nay even laughing at the very idea that they could be oppressed, enjoying their silencing, their forced detransition, them being too scared of judgement to come out of the closet, almost like you're reveling in the oppression of trans people specifically trans masculine ones.

Now, if only there was a word for that...

[plutotheforgotten]

Something I think a lot of trans men need to understand is that the reason that transandrophobia isn’t real isn’t because trans men don’t experience transphobia. It’s because transandrophobia is an inherently nonsensical term.

Transmisogyny is not “transphobia that trans women experience that trans men don’t”. Transmisogyny is the intersection of transphobia and misogyny, and also the idea that trans women can experience misogyny while not being perceived as “fully women.”

There is no such thing as androphobia. There is to an extent a phenomenon in queer spaces specifically where masculinity is put down or feared, however this is not something that happens in wider society and I believe that that is a separate conversation to be had.

People are not saying that trans men don’t experience transphobia (at least not the vast majority of people. I’m sure, because this is tumblr, you could find someone saying that, but that is not what the vast majority of people are saying and if you think that it is, check your reading comprehension).

All of the things that I have seen people claim are “transandrophobia” are actually things that still come from some type of misogyny.

Trans men have trouble accessing reproductive health care because “women’s health clinics” are seen as places that need to be protected from men. (Or possibly because they are not seen as deserving that care, which would just be transphobia)

Trans men have trouble accessing gender affirming care because they are being seen as women who are therefore baby making machines, and most gender affirming care for trans men will affect your fertility.

Trans men are less respected than cis men because they are seen as women.

Trans men are seen as “delusional women” because of misogyny.

You are not experiencing “transandrophobia” you are experiencing misogyny.

I do think that there is a conversation to be had here. However I think that transandrophobia being used as a term to describe these things muddies the waters and ignores A.) what transmisogyny is and B.) the fact that what we are experiencing still come from bigotry against women, not bigotry against masculinity (as the term transandrophobia would imply).

I would also like to say that a lot of trans men need to get more comfortable with the fact that, when you pass, you do have privilege!

I am a trans man who is about 1 year on T, has long hair, hasn’t had top surgery, and has what would often be considered effeminate mannerisms and speech patterns. I pass about half the time at best and when I do pass, I’m more often passing as a faggot than as a man (which are often different categories).

My access to male privilege is restricted. Similarly to how men of other minorities’ (men of color, disabled men, gay men) access to male privilege is restricted*. But this doesn’t mean that I never experience male privilege. I do! When I pass, I experience male privilege.

You having access to male privilege doesn’t make you a bad person. It doesn’t mean you never experience bigotry. And it doesn’t mean you should feel bad about being a man.

It does mean, however, that you may need to check yourself sometimes. Make sure you’re not playing in to toxic masculinity as a way to affirm your gender. Make sure you’re not speaking over women.

I don’t have a good way to end this. But I guess my point is that, while there is a conversation to be had about the type of transphobia trans men specifically experience, I do not think that calling it “transandrophobia” is helping the conversation at all. And also trans men need to remember that they are not immune to being men. Just because your access to male privilege is restricted does not mean that you will never experience it.**

*obviously all these minorities have their access to male privilege restricted in different ways but the concept is the same.

**even if you are a trans man who never plans to go on T, never plans to have surgeries, and will likely never pass, my point first point about the term transandrophobia not making sense still stands.

[eisthenameofme]

love when it gets to the point of The Discourse where i feel the need to key word search otherwise chill people's blogs for rampant bigotry before following them. Like this isn't exactly what happened with 'ace discourse'

[macbxth-pdf]

Revisiting months later to talk about my current stance on this issue and final conclusion

- On this blog post discussing transphobia will be tagged as transphobia. If it specifically talks about trans women & tranfems, the post will be tagged transmisogyny. If the post discusses trans men & transmascs, the post will be tagged anti-transmasculinity.

- There is way more discussion about the word and discourse around it than I realized. I didn’t realize that the word was that controversial and from here on out imma avoid using the word on my blog

- This is not me denying that trans men & transmasculine people experience oppression. This is not me saying transmasculine people oppress transfeminine people or vice versa.

- Id just rather not use the word transandrophobia or transmisandry on my blog.

- With the general conversation on both words, I can gather that transandrophobia was created instead of transmisandry cause transmisandry implies a systemic oppression against men and manhood. Transandrophobia was created to discuss the specific oppression of trans men and transmasculinity.

- Anti-transmasculinity can describe the same thing that transandrophobia was trying to describe without the already loaded history and reputation the word has gained.

disappointed to see you rb'ing transmisogynistic rhetoric abt how transmisandry exists. there's tons of resources for you to learn about exactly why it doesn't and why it erases transmisogyny and upholds bioessentialism, and i'll link one here (pls do not send op transmisogyny): https://www. tumblr.com/molsno/ 702933781392359424/what-is-transandrophobia

for someone with tme in their bio, you seem to be really okay rb'ing something very clearly transmisogynistic.

i also recommend @/transmisogyny-explained for a resource.

I wasn't aware that the post was (and transmisandry + transandrophobia as terms overall) transmisogynistic. I'll take a look at the resources you sent and do some more reading on the topic. In the meantime, ill delete the post

[trans-androgyne]

I read too many stories of "women" throughout history who lived as men and wore men's clothing getting beaten and arrested for it, sensationalized in the press as "man-woman," painted as perverts and monsters, put in literal freakshows, and forcibly institutionalized to sit by quietly while non-transmascs loudly and confidently claim that "female masculinity" has never been targeted as much as "male femininity" has. Read some trans and queer history that isn't only about gay men and trans women before you open your mouths about butches and transmascs, or better yet just listen to us about our history and experiences in the first place.

[jellyfemmedyke]

Trans men and women tend to get viewed as either disgusting male freaks or perfect feminine female goddesses based entirely on identity and vibes alone, forcing trans men to either detranstion to talk about the issues faced, or shut up and hate themselves and grovel at the feet of their "betters", and trans women are forced to preform the highest standards of femininity or be shunned and live in fear of being cast out and not being "woman enough" facing the constant need to prove themselves to avoid being seen as interlopers. these things are similar, these problems overlap, and yet people go on to pretend that one is the most victimized victim and the other is the "subjector and oppressor" (Interchangeable) and neither can truly understand the other. these ideas being perpetuated by others within and outside of these groups. It drives me up the wall that there are people pretending this helps anyone, that either benefits from the others oppression in anyway. Personally, from what I've seen a lot of it comes out as like gender insecurity, from the inside groups, which is pretty sad, but also extremely frustrating to be lashed out at for being unwilling to accept this gender essentialist false binary

[trash-and-trash-accessories]

Constantly citing this article and the studies it uses.

Here's a quote:

"That study shows that transmasculine individuals were actually more likely to be victims of childhood sexual assault, adult sexual assault, dating violence, domestic violence, and stalking than were transfeminine individuals (as shown in the chart below).

The only category in which trans women were more likely to be victimized was by hate violence, and even there the difference was small: 30 percent of trans women reported having experienced hate violence, compared to 29 percent of trans men."

[lycandrophile]

at this point i don’t even have any commentary to add to this. i’m just tired.

[bisexualfagdyke]

I cant believe people on here actually think you are a bigot for *checks notes* thinking that trans men are oppressed for being trans men and have unique experiences with transphobia

[spiltcandycoatedpunkblood]

ngl being a trans man and being sidelined in the media and being treated as 'brainwashed little girls' or 'privileged aggressive men' pisses me off so much, especially with how the gender binary and essentialism is wrapped up in progressive or patronising language. it is depressing to see the media portray trans women as predators, nonbinary people as 'special little snowflakes' and trans men as brainwashed girls generally forgotten about. none of us are benefitting from this except the societal structure that the media is a part of. I do not gain privilege as a man because my transness exists. I don't know if it's just me, but there is an unspoken level of transandrophobia that people just don't want to acknowledge.

[gettinontopic]

This is so transphobic like what the hell is this

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[Image Id: A large addition to a tumblr poat reading "Also if I'm going to be honest, passing as a man is also just easier than passing as a woman. The rules to being a man and passing as a man are much more lenient than being a woman or passing as a woman. Trans women have to worry about shit like "I need to wear an outfit that distracts people from the fact I have an adams apple, and not allow people to see that I have shoulders, and learn makeup and basically become a voice actor and etc. and maybe I won't be called a man today" (and if you pass too well and the wrong cis guy feels guilty about being attracted to you, you get murdered meanwhile if you're a trans guy and you wanna pass as a man, you gotta like have short hair and hide or remove your boobs and at this point you can already just go to the grocery store and most people will see you as a man. Once you get facial hair and a deeper voice, most people will just see you as some guy. Like I don't understand why transmascs insist on this idea that they could never really pass. Like the idea that trans man who passes is almost far-fetched. Weird as hell." End Id]

Lets upack this shall we?

1."Passing as a man is easier than passing as a woman"

No it's not. The rules to being a man and passing as a men as strict as lots of rules for women. Have you ever seen a cis guys who fails to pass? They're called names, theyre physically beat, and theyre often ostracized from their cis peers just as fast as any trans person. Cis boys cant even pass half the time by the rules they made. Quit fucking lying about men just magically having it so easy.

Your experiences as passing as a man aren't universal and if you've never passed as one what makes you think it's fucking easy?

Also god forbid you're a black man, or a black man who is into something deemed feminine. Shit I've seen guys call black men women for wearing a damn hair bonnet.

Oh not to mention I'm only a man to transphobes when they can call me a "dangerous black man" only to switch back to tryibg to detransition me by saying "you can just be a masc girl!"

2.Adams apple

While you have to hide yours, I have to wear shit that distracts people that I *don't* have one. Cause, and I know this is wild, if they expect you not to have one for being a women, what do they expect me to have for being a man? Hmm? And if you're a man who's adams apple never came in? I've seen them called girls to. Shit I've heard a guy called not manly for missing his, and he was still in puberty!!

3.Shoulders

While you have to hide you shoulders, I have to do whatever I can to have the.. small shoulders on men? maybe if youre in a "non manly" field like music or art, but I do gym work. I better look likeit regardless of the disability that effacts my muscles growth and development or I am called maam by every guy there. Which sucks btw.

4. Makeup and voice acting:

Trans men also are regularly advised to wear makeup that masculinizes them and do voice training. thats some of our oldest passing tips. thats litterally never been unique to trans women. what the FUCK kinda of implications are you trying to put out here?

5. Murder:

Hey did you know cis guys will murder trans men bc they were attracted to them and then found out they werent "real men" and then kill them. shit cis women also kill us if they find out they were attracted to us and we aren't their ideal man anymore. do u know how men who hear im butch and into women behave?

Fuck right the fuck off trying to tokenize the murder lf trans women while throwing trans men murders in the "that doesn't happen" bin.

6. How many times have we said short hair and no boobs dont fucking automatically gets us gendered correcly!! We have voices that have to be trained, we have muscles were expected to build,and some men even watch the way you walk to guess if you have a dick or not.

Listen to any trans men. any of us for five minutes. those things do not making an easily passing trans man fuck you for lying about our experiences as not a trans man.

7. "You gotta like have short hair or remove your boobs"

Untrue! just Untrue. we also have to preform the rules of manhood really well. ive seen beareded transmen clocked for like so many different other reasons and you wouldn't listen to those men if it would save all trans people lives forever. cis men constantly dig at other men presentation to keep each other in line. Its a regular for them.

Also: not all of want to pass with those features. I deserve to have long hair and not bind and still pass as a man and you suck for defining everything around passing.

8. I don't know why you insist on this idea that trans women never really pass without obscene work (when ive met trans women that admit they have it easy by throwing on a dress and wearing her hair down) and that all trans men who have ascess to transition magically do pass (When multiple of us transitioning have said we dont)

If we can't talk about the ones who don't pass then you kinda can just sweep away the idea we don't face discrimination or danger and that's getting us killed actually.

None of us have said we can all never really pass any who say they can't are usually speaking on their own experiences. Because you want us all to pass so bad you don't care that we don't, and that it gets us backlash and hurt.

Also, if you ever read this, kiss my black ass and go reevaluate what makes you think you should speak on experiences that aint yours as if you're the one with the Hard Cold Facts.

[a-polite-melody]

I love how much the arguments I see against transandrophobia boil down to, even if not directly stated, the idea that “trans man” is not an intersectional experience.

The idea that if you’re a man, regardless of anything else, you will be afforded male privilege. And that apparently it’s “third gendering” trans men to deny this.

And the idea that all of the actual oppression experienced by trans men comes from the trans aspect. And apparently it’s “misgendering” trans men to deny this because you’re implying they aren’t men if their oppression comes from anywhere else.

And that these two parts of a trans man’s identity will never influence one another. That the transness and the manness are always treated as two separate and distinct parts of the trans man’s identity and how his experiences will manifest.

Which can only really make sense if you’re bogged down in the pure theory of it all and refuse to listen to trans men and mascs telling you that this contradicts our actual lived experiences because if it contradicts the pure theory it simply cannot be.

And how much that shows a fundamental lack of understanding of intersectionality on top of the willingness to throw away anything that contradicts you as something not worth engaging with, something entirely made up by the TMRAs to pretend to be oppressed by trans women, how much that’s already a foregone conclusions before interacting with us and hearing what we’re actually saying.

[trans-androgyne]

"Stop treating 'butch' as a kind of transmasc" -- I am not inherently doing so by mentioning them in transandrophobia conversations, it's what the bigots are doing that I am responding to. Also, I am literally a transmasculine butch, sometimes butch is a kind of transmasc. But even outside of personal identity and the blurry lines between butchness and transmasculinity, queerphobes have historically not made much of a distinction between us (see the concept of the "female invert"). We're just dykes to them.

Transandrophobia and butchphobia are inextricable. Misogyny and lesbophobia are very much part of both these conversations. Transmascs and butches are both punished for a perceived failure of the female gender role: to be feminine women sexually desirable for and available to men. Both groups have our masculinity treated as ruining ourselves. Butches get accused of wanting to be men plenty. Please don't blame me for just pointing out what queerphobes already think of us.

[velvetvexations]

Thinking about it, I really need someone to explain to me why AMAB non-binary people aren't considered to be victims of misdirected transmisogyny that affects them merely because they were misidentified as a trans woman. Can someone do that for me? Anyone? Is there a transradfem who doesn't have me blocked or who I haven't blocked for harassment that can illuminate me on that point?