#this is about transandrophobia by the way

[velvetvexations]

id also love to point out to that person that "transandrophobia" is not "trans androphobia" but "transandro phobia". the specific bigotry faced by trans masculine people for being trans masculine. it's a common mistake bc I think people try to make it parallel to "transmisogyny" which is "trans misogyny" but the words aren't perfect parallels in their structure that way

It's a really stupid gotcha. "What are you, some kinna MRA saying androphobia exists?"

And like, idk, from the way some people act I think people have weird attitudes about men that are unhealthy just to themselves even if no one else. I've seen a lotta takes about cis men that even if you don't want to call it prejudice are grounds to tell them to get some fucking therapy.

[xxlovelynovaxx]

Ah yes, the strawman of a trans man "being upset about trans women being mean about their oppression comparing it to actual oppression" when other trans people of all genders are... participating in active erasure and perpetuation of "forest green" people's oppression.

Yeah actually lateral bigotry is more than mean, it actively reifies the contraption that hurts all of us! It's almost as if transandrophobia isn't just "being mean about transmisogyny" and if you think it is, you're a fucking transandrophobe!

(Also "actual systemic oppression that forest green people aren't". So... are we going to acknowledge that this goes both ways? That "lime green" people don't face corrective rape and forced detransition at nearly the same rates? That while "forest green" people don't typically face hypervisibility, "lime green" people don't typically face erasure to the same extent as "forest green" people? Are we going to talk about how erasure means that "forest green" people DO face much of the same systemic ableism as "lime green" people, but people ignore, speak over, and actively suppress discussions of it?

Are we going to talk about the fact that saying "forest green" people don't face the same structural oppression is actively perpetuating this oppression?

And especially "as bad as when forest green people assist in putting lime green people in the contraption" yeah okay why don't we talk about lime green people doing the reverse and moss green people having that done to them by both and doing it to both and... oh wait you clearly think "lime green" people are the most oppressed and "forest green" people are basically half a rung below "nonchromatic" people if at all!

Turns out the creator is fine with infighting if they think someone "doesn't have a point", given that "guys being weird about transmisogyny" seems to mean "trans people who actually understand non-rad/ical transfeminist theory and express that their own lived experiences with material oppression are not limited to only people of the "right" identity.

Everything they're saying, I've had weaponized against me as an intersex person who has experienced significant, violent transmisogyny, as well as transandrophobia and exorsexism. It's almost as if bigots don't actually check what's in your pants and whether or not it's what you were born with or not before doing everything from murdering you (which, yes, happens a lot to transmascs) to denying you medical care to discriminating against you legally in ways that result in everything from homelessness to police brutality.

Maybe they should actually take their own advice.

Guess these comics aren't actually the metaphor for trans solidarity that they appear to be. The creator literally actually is for everything these comics claim to be against if it's against "acceptable targets". They've justified their head so far up their ass they think they're seeing daylight.

[eisthenameofme]

love when it gets to the point of The Discourse where i feel the need to key word search otherwise chill people's blogs for rampant bigotry before following them. Like this isn't exactly what happened with 'ace discourse'

[cock-holliday]

US transphobes are running with a new gotcha of “you never hear about WOMEN becoming MEN, hmmm curious!” and everyone is saying that you don’t hear about it because trans men are completely under the radar and like…that’s not true!

Did I hallucinate the “little girls are mutilating their bodies” “mentally ill girls are taking hormones” “what happened to our lesbians” “you wanna be a man I guess I can hit you” arguments that have been made for years??? Some of the main talking points of JKR???Hello!?

People are erasing trans men and it’s YOU TOO!

[faggy--butch]

Trans men and women tend to get viewed as either disgusting male freaks or perfect feminine female goddesses based entirely on identity and vibes alone, forcing trans men to either detranstion to talk about the issues faced, or shut up and hate themselves and grovel at the feet of their "betters", and trans women are forced to preform the highest standards of femininity or be shunned and live in fear of being cast out and not being "woman enough" facing the constant need to prove themselves to avoid being seen as interlopers. these things are similar, these problems overlap, and yet people go on to pretend that one is the most victimized victim and the other is the "subjector and oppressor" (Interchangeable) and neither can truly understand the other. these ideas being perpetuated by others within and outside of these groups. It drives me up the wall that there are people pretending this helps anyone, that either benefits from the others oppression in anyway. Personally, from what I've seen a lot of it comes out as like gender insecurity, from the inside groups, which is pretty sad, but also extremely frustrating to be lashed out at for being unwilling to accept this gender essentialist false binary

[transmascissues]

at this point i don’t even have any commentary to add to this. i’m just tired.

[spiltcandycoatedpunkblood]

ngl being a trans man and being sidelined in the media and being treated as 'brainwashed little girls' or 'privileged aggressive men' pisses me off so much, especially with how the gender binary and essentialism is wrapped up in progressive or patronising language. it is depressing to see the media portray trans women as predators, nonbinary people as 'special little snowflakes' and trans men as brainwashed girls generally forgotten about. none of us are benefitting from this except the societal structure that the media is a part of. I do not gain privilege as a man because my transness exists. I don't know if it's just me, but there is an unspoken level of transandrophobia that people just don't want to acknowledge.

[babsaros]

hey. when cis society is oppressing a trans man, what he is experiencing is. In Fact. misogyny. i'm sorry i know none of us like to be reminded of our agab, and it hurts whenever people perceive you as the wrong gender. but a cis person hate-criming, assaulting, verbally abusing, etc, a trans man is not doing "transandrophobia" because they do not perceive him as a man.

they perceive him as a woman failing at her gender, as a woman who has been seduced and lied to and manipulated because women are so easily led astray, just like it says in the bible. they perceive him as a woman who has been mutilated. they perceive him as a dyke that needs to be fixed. if they are hate-criming him because they *do* perceive him as a man, because he passes well enough they aren't thinking he could be trans, then they're doing so out of homophobia, perceiving him as a gay man, a pervert, a sissy, a danger to children. OR, they are being transphobic but specifically because they think he might be transfeminine instead. when cis society oppresses a trans woman, they are able to do it on multiple levels at once. She's a woman failing at her gender, a dyke that needs to be fixed. Or she's an evil and grotesque crossdressing pervert, a rude caricature, a danger to polite society. she will never be doing enough to escape oppression entirely, no matter if she gets every surgery she can and wears makeup every day and passes perfectly, because she lives under a patriarchy, and she's a woman, so she lives in a panopticon, and HAVING to get surgery and wear make-up to be respected IS oppression, especially if the alternative is being hate-crimed.

trans women (and trans men who pass) are not experiencing "transandrophobia" when a 'queer women and nbs" event turns them away at the door for being too masculine. they are. IN FACT!! experiencing the byproducts of misogyny in a patriarchy!!! where the terfs and coward cis women running those events and occupying those spaces have been taught (sometimes through experience, sometimes by men, sometimes by women) throughout life that men = stronger and more dangerous than women ALWAYS. That they need to protect themselves at all times and always be vigilant. That men and women can't be friends without sexual tension (and so as queer women the mere existence of what they perceive as a "man" is a threat). That women need a separate sports league because they can't possibly compete with someone who has even a little bit "extra" (an unquantifiable amount actually because there isn't a standard range) testosterone. That women should cook and men should fix cars. i promise you, i promise i promise i promise. it's misogyny. like!!! you don't say cis gay men experiences "androphobia", bc that's not a thing!! you sound like fucking mens rights activists guys please! you don't say a black man experiences "misandrynoir"!! because living in a patriarchy fundamentally means men do not experience oppression based on their gender. its not happening. shut the fuck up. stop walking us back to 2014 can we please take a step forward and stop bitching about this. there are genuine issues in the world and i'm frankly sick of people who should be smarter than that needing to be gently hand-held through this fucking explanation for the millionth time and still stomping their feet.

[gamblegun]

You know I am 110% for trans unity, and I try to be careful not to bad mouth transfems and other trans folk, so I get the urge to compromise, but posts that paint the transandrophobia discourse as a "two sides" argument are wrong. There is a clear aggressor. One side is asking for a spot on the table, and the other IS in fact lying and being transphobic.

[cardentist]

The post that was screenshot: [Link] This post with the reply by catgirlforeskin: [Link] A convenient post that I wrote going into it about my gender yesterday: [Link]

obviously I would suggest reading the original post, as it has context for what was being said in those screenshots.

ahem

So Like, We Just Hate People Who Aren't Binary Huh?

We See Someone Come Out About Being Genderqueer And Talk About Their Own Presentation And Sense Of Self On Their Own Post And It's Immediately Responded To With "You're Fetishizing Trans Women By Thinking That You Have Anything In Common With Them."

let's review !

1: I made a Vent Post where I responded to a Cis Person, I made my own post and crossed out their username because I didn't feel like they did anything Wrong, but I wanted to discuss my feelings on it anyways!

2: these feelings were that it's upsetting that people don't seem to think about the trans perspective when discussing gender Stuff, or how marginalization in general plays a factor when discussing representation in media.

3: within Two Notes I got someone crawling into my replies and dms to talk down to me for being trans masc, so I expressed frustration that That's something that happens to me.

4: THEN somebody responded to That to insist that me expressing frustration about people lashing out at marginalized men was harmful to trans women.

you'll notice ! I was a trans person speaking about my own feelings on my own post, responding to a cis person and someone who explicitly harassed me. I did not mention trans women in this post, because it was a vent post. I explicitly say in my response to that post different kinds of trans people venting about their experiences does not imply or take anything away from other sorts of trans people.

so ! what we're left with is !

1: people being Furiously Angry that I would say that all trans people are capable of being hurt and that all trans people deserve to speak about their feelings, enough to rip things out of context and lie

2: People Just Unironically Saying With Their Entire Chest That A Trans Person Who Considers Themselves Both Masculine And Feminine Is Transmisogynistic, Because Being Genderqueer Implies That You Don't See Trans Women As Real Women. Somehow.

so like. where do we go from here huh.

firstly, there's an awareness. I need people to be Aware that this is something that is happening. that we've reached a point where people hate trans mascs so much that they're willing to tear them down for talking about Their Feelings in response to Cis People.

that we've reached a point where people get so blindly Angry when someone suggests that trans people should all be treated with dignity and respect that they're willing to act like this.

I Need people to share things like this, even if it's not this post specifically. because I Need People To Understand the kind of vitriol and hatred that trans mascs are facing simply for being visible At All.

if people aren't aware then they Will end up supporting and spreading this kind of harassment without realizing.

[velvetvexations]

I.D.K. I feel like I’ve said this a million times but it drives me fucking insane how eager people are to undermine the struggles of gnc women and transmascs for the sake of the TIRF Oppression Hierarchy being upheld.

Its “nobody cares if little girls are tomboys or women wear pants”, until they’re talking about transfems, then its “women’s gender expression is most policed out of any group”

But it’s also “nobody cares about fem men”, until they’re talking about transfems, then its “there is no room for gender nonconformity in male spaces, and being gnc in any way removes you from patriarchal privilege”

(NOTE!: I do not say this to imply trans women and fems have it easier. I am trying to state that EVERYONE’s gender expression is policed because we live in a cissexist society, and I would really fucking appreciate if people would stop calling butches and transmascs whiny bitches for like. One second. Butchphobia is real, transandrophobia is real. Please I’m begging you (general you, not directed at op))

I don't have a lot to add cuz you're just Right anon, but I do wanna take the time to thank you for still caring to emphasize that you believe we all suffer equally under transphobic systems. It means a lot to me as a transfem that in spite of the backlash you get prioritizing one kinna trans person over another, you still feel it important to keep in mind that we're in the same bad spot.

[decolonize-the-left]

I said this in the comments of one of my posts earlier but it deserves to be seen and have its own post cuz this logic here is completely absent.

White women have an extensive history of weaponizing misogyny to harm MoC.

This is a fact that we can agree on considering Karens and BBQ Becky, yes?

And it never occurred to anybody that the weaponization of their white privilege and role as Victims in the patriarchy should mean that they no longer have a right to talk about misogyny. Right?

By that I mean there wasn't a campaign of Black and brown women commenting, "White women can't talk about misogyny until they stop being racist. Besides what they have to say about their experience as women is no different from my experience. And if anything it's less valuable than what I have to say anyway cuz their views on gender are inherently racist. Listening to white women is a waste of time when you could listen to Black and brown women."

Literally nobody did this, right?

So how are y'all using the same exact logic to say that transmen can't talk about transandrophobia? "Their experiences are different from ours but they shouldn't talk about them cuz we're the ones doing the worthwhile work of dismantling transphobia with our more valuable experiences as the Hated Gender."

Because respectfully if that's the logic we as a queer community are gonna start using then that logic eventually says that the Only people with a right to speak on Anything in Any community Ever... are Black women.

"If Black women were free, it would mean that everyone else would have to be free since our freedom would necessitate the destruction of all the systems of oppression."

Now ask yourself why this campaign against WW doesn't exist. Ask yourself why you stopped at telling transmen to shut up, but didn't follow that logic all the way to it's conclusion.

Now ask yourself if that changes your right to speak on your own experiences with people like you when you ALL could be speaking out of ignorance. What changes? Why or why not?

How do you feel right now?

Do you feel closer to your community? Do you feel spoken for or heard? Do you feel like your experiences matter to the people who it should matter the most to when I say your experiences are less relevant to our movement than someone else's?

Yeah. I didn't think so.

[sometimesraven]

When Brianna was killed I couldn't log on to tumblr or facebook without seeing posts about her. There were vigils held locally for her.

Not even my local trans support group has said a word about Nex. I had to post about them myself. This silence is deafening. I'm exhausted.

[transvarmint]

Being a woman does not make you immune to being misogynistic, nor does it make you any less prone to being misogynistic.

You are not less misogynistic by virtue of being a woman. You are not any less capable of perpetrating it.

To believe that being a woman in and of itself makes you less likely to be misogynistic is just essentialism. It implies that other genders are more misogynistic solely only the basis of their gender, rather than being misogynistic based on the choices they actively make.

To not be misogynistic, you must actively choose to fight against it, everyday. You must actively make choices that challenges systemic and social misogyny. You must question your own biases and how they influence your behavior.

You cannot be passively anti-misogyny. Your gender does not give you a free pass.

And importantly, women can absolutely perpetuate misogyny against other women, AND people who are not women. So you must be checking yourself for misogynistic bias in ALL interactions.

*** Before anyone comes at me, YES this applies to men and all genders as well. No, I'm not blaming women for systemic misogyny. I'm simply pointing out that everyone plays a role in it. Women are capable of perpetuating bigotry, especially if there are other intersections at play. Women are not perfect victims, they are human beings who have autonomy, and that autonomy includes the capability to uphold harmful institutions. ***

*** Also yes, experiencing misogyny on a daily basis will cause you to have a different relationship to it. Some folks respond to that by fighting against misogyny, but others respond to that trauma by continuing the cycle of abuse. This is just a fact. ***

[whitehairedanimeboyfriend]

I dont think any kind of justification is required for trans headcanons but the worst kind of justifications is "This SUPPOSSEDLY male character experienced a HUMAN EMOTION or was perhaps even EMOTIONALLY VULNERABLE. This is evidence that they are actually a TRANSGENDER WOMAN."

[transmascissues]

every time i scroll through twitter, i start taking screenshots of the anti-transmasculinity i come across before eventually giving up because it’s so overwhelmingly constant right now that i have no idea where to even begin talking about it.

i’ve seen less people talking about a cis mom selling instructions for the DIY conversion therapy she used on her trans son for $1200 than i have people just endlessly shitting on trans men for the crime of existing in the trans community. do you get how fucked up that is? do you see why i’m at a loss at this point? how do we convince the world to stop abusing and traumatizing us if our own community would rather spend its time berating us than caring about how many of our parents are willing to drop thousands on their efforts to beat the transness out of us?

i honestly wish i had the skills and resources to properly study whatever the fuck has been going on lately. like, is all this just because we’ve gotten louder? is that what this is — a bunch of assholes who were hiding in our community, counting on trans men&mascs to stay easy for them to ignore, who can’t stand the fact that more of us are being outspoken about our experiences? is there some other factor playing into it? it’s the kind of thing that gets me curious, and i want to look deeper into it and really understand it.

but man, as curious as i am on an intellectual level, it sure is hard to think clearly enough about it to do that kind of work. like how do you read someone saying (and yes, this is a direct quote) “everything that improves the lives of trans men is paid for by making the lives of trans women worse” and not just want to throw your phone into the nearest volcano?