#thinking about parallel universes
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Got to the Dave and Dirk rooftop convo that shit hurt BADDDD. Debating morality with an alternate version of your dead father figure (regardless of how strained the relationship is) would rip me to shreds Also the two of them being foils of eachother makes something in my heart feel heavy. Will give a comprehensive analysis when I gather my thoughts
#thinking about parallel universes#Dirk#dave#strider bros#Dirk strider#dave strider#homestuck#bro#alpha Dave#bro strider#alpha Dirk#strider bros rooftop conversation#same tale different cities
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I was your only friend. You had one friend /// There’s a friend card here if you want to play it. You know that, right?
this edit on tiktok
#i love the parallels#need to know what ben affleck thinks about tsn#i hope tsn exists in succession universe#markwardo#kenstewy#kendall roy#stewy hosseini#succession#the social network#tsn
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I'm bad at math, but is Bruce theoretically 38 years old when he goes into the time stream?
Hear me out (and canon likes to fluncate their ages, so this is my best guess without trying to account for birthdays):
Bruce becomes the legal guardian of 9 year old Dick when he's 23. That's a 14 year difference.
Jason becomes Robin when Dick leaves at 18. Jason is 13. That's a five year difference.
Jason dies at 15, and Tim becomes Robin at 13. That's a two year difference.
The age difference between Tim and Bruce would thus be 21 years.
Tim becomes Red Robin to find Bruce at 17.
That means that Bruce had to be 38, right? Why was I imagining him closer to 50?
Adopting so many kids must have aged him
#tim was 2-3 when he watched the graysons fall#jason would have been 17 when he attacked to at titan tower#this would make dick 24 when his dad dies and he has to take up the batman mantle he never wanted#UtRH is more tragic if you think about how jason wasnt even an adult#i do love the parallels of 23 year old bruce being a father to 9 year old dick and 24 year old dick being a father to 10 year old damian#also it's definitely the continued exposure to crime and violence that gave bruce his stress lines and grey hair (or jason dying)#this is all theoretical anyways because DC writes its own rules for how to math ages#dc universe#dc comics#bruce wayne#tim drake#jason todd#dick grayson#the consequences of dc being vague on their ages is that means the characters speedrun all their trauma and can't breath through it#they are all so young
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FLUXES [Celestis: Engineered Participants / Technologies] Example: "DOCTOR, The"
[Image description, courtesy of @quailfence: a series of pictures of text, alternated with screencaps and gifs from Doctor Who.
1: Text: Fluxes: [Celestis: Engineered Participants/Technology] Individuals transposed backwards in time but not too far in space, using a very high chaotic limiter setting and tied to their home period by a thread of biodata
2: The Eleventh Doctor stands in the future corpse of his TARDIS, looking and a pulsing stream of light that has replaced the console. He says, "That is the scar tissue of my journey through the universe. My path through time and space."
3: Text: He raised a finger. 'Look. There.
Now she could just make out the thread in the moonlight. It was just a faint reflection, maybe a foot or two long, about a metre off the ground. A taut strand of spiderweb hanging in the air, not attached to anything.
'What is it?' Fitz asked.
'It's only partially rotated into three dimensions,' he said. He pushed his finger right through the glimmering line, without affecting it. 'That's why it looks one- or two-dimensional. The rest is still perpendicular to what we can see - woven into higher space, or the time vortex…'
'Yes,' said Fitz, 'but what is it?' 'It's what your friend mistook for a ley line.' The Doctor was scuttling around the silver thread, peering at it from every angle, getting more and more agitated. 'It's part of the fabric of space-time itself. What DNA is to your genetic code, this stuff is to biodata. And it's all just exposed here now. Personality, history, memory, perception, all vulnerable…'
'I'm going to have to ask you again, aren't I?' said Fitz.
The Doctor said, 'It's me.'
4: The Fourteenth and Fifteenth doctors in the TARDIS. 14: "But you're fine?" 15: "I'm fine, because you fixed yourself. We're Time Lords, we're doing rehab out of order."
5: Text: The subject is turned loose in his or her own history, and the limiter setting allows tiny actions taken by the future version to have considerable effects on the past version. The biodata link then transfers these changes to the future version, which alters it, and thus alters the changes made to the past version. Therefore, the individual's history is kept constantly in flux.
6: The Fugitive Doctor says, "Let me take it from the top: Hello, I'm the Doctor."
7: Text: Let me finish. Think back to that time when you went to see your previous selves.
8: Ten, Eleven, and War talk to each other. Ten: "You're not actually suggesting that we change our own personal history?" Eleven: "We change history all the time. I'm suggesting far worse."
9: Text: 'Maybe there's no one home on Gallifrey,' said the boy softly. There was just the one of him.
The Doctor looked at him, cupping the small white cube in his hands. The boy said, Maybe they all left. Or maybe the whole planet's being destroyed, and undestroyed, and destroyed, and you just caught them at the wrong moment.
10: The TARDIS by the ruins of Gallifrey
11: Text: 'It's impossible,' said the Doctor. 'It's impossible for my people. Our past is unreachable. What's written can't be unwritten.'
'Who said your history can't change?'
Another boy answered, 'Someone from his history.'
And another: 'Maybe it's the second-biggest lie in Time Lord history.'
12: Dhawan!Master tells Thirteen, "You are the Timeless Child."
13: Thitreen stares at a ruined house. Swarm whispers in her ear and tells her, "All the memories you've lost, all the people you've been. It's all in there, contained within that house."
14: Text: And it was like the Doctor's home. As if his ship understood the loss of the House and had compensated to fill the emptiness. Shadowy corridors, alcoves and stairways, a secret at every turn. Like being in the Doctor's head. Like his life, for that matter, the details of which were strewn like flotsam across the floor.
15: Text: 'Sweet,' said the little boy. 'That's my favourite of your origin stories, too.'
The Doctor opened his eyes. He had been laughing, he realised, he felt that lightness in himself. The boys had all moved away, behind him, leaving him facing the empty dark of the warehouse.
'What do you mean?' he asked. His voice sounded very small.
'Is this the version where they banned all mention of his name, and yours, for consorting with aliens? Or the one where he got every record of himself deleted from the files?'
'Feel free to believe either of them,' snapped the Doctor, 'or both of them, or neither of them. If you're curious about my past, I want there to be as many wrong answers as possible.'
16: The Eighth Doctor tells someone, "I'm half human. On my mother's side."
17: Text: 'Well he's a hybrid, you know that. A Gallifreyan not born of Gallifreyan, the one who unites the two races and brings good old human niceness into their alien society. Aliens need that, y'know.'
'A human hybrid? She saw the contempt in his curling lip. 'Pseudoscientific nonsense. There's no evidence,' he repeated.
'He's allowed to be different. He's got a prophecy and everything.'
18: Lady Me says, "By your own reasoning, why couldn't the Hybrid be half Time Lord, half human?"
19: Text: Someone giggled. 'Let's play pin the tale on the donkey.'
'Maybe you didn't use to have a father.'
'Maybe you're living in the middle of a time war. Maybe there's an Enemy out there -'
The Doctor shouted, 'I'm not listening!'
'- who's rewriting you when you're not looking!'
'Maybe you weren't always half human.'
'But now you've become always half human.' 'Maybe you weren't always a Time Lord.'
But now you've always been a Time Lord.'
'Maybe you originally came from some planet in the forty-ninth century. Fleeing from the Enemy who'd overrun your home -'
'I said I'm not listening! Laa laa laa laa laa -'
'- and you've just been written and rewritten and overwritten, ever since.'
'Pin the tale!'
'How d'you know it's not true?'
'How could you know it's not true?'
The voices crowded in. 'How would you know, huh?'
'How would you know?'
'How would 'How would you 'How 'How would you know? you know? you know? know?'
'Why would I care?' shouted the Doctor.
The boy fell silent.
20: Lady Me asks, "Am I right? Is it true?" Twelve replies, "Does it matter?"
21: Text: However, the one group from the Homeworld which has excelled at flux-engineering is the Celestis.
22: Two asks the Time Lords, "Now then… what about me?"
23: Tecteun tells Thirteen, "Which is ehy we engineered the Fluyx: Shut the universe down and you within it."
24: Text: Even Mictlan itself can be considered a kind of enormous flux, an endlessly-shifting realm so cortosive to the rest of history that its heartland has to be kept on the outer skin of the universe
24: The Fourteenth Doctor tells Donna, "I invoked a supersition, at the edge of the universe, where the walls are thin and everything is possible."
25: The space station from Wild Blue Yonder
26: Text: There are suggestions of a stable middle-ground between the two fates, in which the physical matter of the flux is lost but the meaning of the subject/ victim is retained, a series of memetic connections with no flesh to support it. Yet this entity exists only on a purely theoretical level, relying on the perceptions of others to survive at all.
27: The Twelfth Doctor walks up to the TARDIS console. He says, "Can't wait to hear what I say." Glancing at the viewer, he adds, "I'm noting without an audience."
28: Text: You know what Sam represents. If a tree falls in a forest and no one's there to hear it, does it make a sound? Stop me if I'm getting too abstract here, but if a Time Lord saves the world and nobody witnesses him doing it, does history care? She's your witness. The thing you need to make you whole.
29: The First Doctor looks at the viewer and says, "Incidentally, a Happy Christmas to all of you at home!" End description.]
[Plain text: Fluxes [Celestis: Engineered Participants / Technologies] Example: "Doctor, The". End plain text.]
@dw-described
#Doctor Who#DW Meta#DW Theory#First Doctor#Second Doctor#Eighth Doctor#Tenth Doctor#Eleventh Doctor#Twelfth Doctor#Thirteenth Doctor#Fourteenth Doctor#Fifteenth Doctor#Martin!Doctor#Tecteun#The Division#The Flux#Faction Paradox#Doctor Who EU#The Book of the War#Unnatural History#just some random thoughts#linking together some of the parallels and headcanons over the years into a chain#actually was spurred by me thinking about the 'destruction of the universe' line in Class and connecting it to the Flux#but had to cut it#as well as a lot more#due to the 30 image limit#so consider also the Solitract; the Great Old Ones from the previous universe; the Doctor as a 'virus'; “once upon several times” etc.#DW Spoilers#Doctor Who Spoilers#for Tennant and Gatwa together
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Otto and D3-C1 in Arcane
They’re wanted for bot fights
#ottto#D3-C1#guys they would be besties with jinx because I said so#Otto and jinx would vibe doing parallel play while they tinker about#hehehe also jinx braided Otto’s hair because I thought it was cute#this took SEVEN HOURS om lord so worth it im really happy with how this turned out#arcane#arcane season 2#LITERALLY FOAMING AT THE MOUTH#like OMLORD ITS SO FANTASTIC#I hope they all explode#artists on tumblr#art#my art#illustration#finished piece#digital art#2024 art#my oc art#snow leopard#sfw furry#furry art#robot oc#girl robot#guys I think they would just tinker about and commit various crimes#D3 in this universe would be Otto’s creation#I would say also Otto does repairs either for prosthetics or otherwise just being a mechanic and all#yeah sorry guys no arcane fanart but you get to see more Otto and D3#apparently nothing will stop me from drawing those two
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Hello!! I am back with another crossover parallel :D it’s still fairly odd parents a new wish x the owl house but it’s comparing two characters this time, dev and hunter! (Hopefully it will make sense when I explain it)
1. Their mothers are both never mentioned :( (ik belos isn’t technically Hunter’s dad but he’s basically a parental dad figure so it sort of counts since before Hunter got redeemed, he didn’t really have a mother parental figure)
2. When they were first introduced, they both had some accessory covering their face or parts of their face (Hunter with the mask as the golden guard and Dev with the sunglasses)
3. They both just have the same attitude before their redemption? At least while Hunter was still the golden guard. Both are a little sarcastic and snarky and want to make their parental figure proud (more on that in a second)
4. OMG DALE AND BELOS ARE LITERALLY THE SAME ANSJSKKSKSK. Both are business men (being emperor counts as being a business man trust), have experienced some sort of trauma(Dale with Vicky and Belos with his brother), do not pay attention to their children, basically run the city or place where they live, are loved by a lot of people, and both aren’t good people
5. This only counts if you see the Dev being a clone theory as being real ‼️ but both are non-humans or were made by their parental figures to fit in when in reality, they’re not who they look like they are (dev with the clone theory and Hunter being a grimwalker)
6. Both are befriended by the kind and happy main character :3 (Hazel and Luz)
7. Both have had access to magic (Hunter and his palismans, Dev and Peri)
8. When they both got redeemed, they started acting kinder (Dev, unfortunately, went back to being mean)
9. To be honest they both have just been through a lot 😭🙏 these poor trauma filled boys
10. A kind person is usually shipped with them (hunter x willow, dev x hazel)
11. Their access to magic were killed or almost killed (Hunter and Flapjack, Dev and Peri)
12. Both were VERY lonely 😭😭😭😭 (except Dev is technically still lonely with the memory wipe)
13. I know Hunter in the titans key episode was absolutely insane when he felt when he failed Belos (the quotes being: “Long story short, this is my grave! Want me to make you one too?” and “I can’t turn up empty handed…. not again.”) but I feel like Dev would probably act the same if he felt like he failed his dad too
14. And they’re both into nerdy things :3 yayayy!! (Hunter with Cosmic Frontier and Dev with Prime Meridian)
That’s all I could think of!! There may be more parallels but I haven’t watched the owl house in a LONG TIME 😭😭 I will rewatch it though! If you think of more parallels or I said something wrong, feel free to correct me in the reblogs or comments/replies. Thank you for reading another crossover yap session from me, it means a lot <3 I hope you have a great night or day!
#fop a new wish#dev dimmadome#fopanw#fairly odd parents a new wish x the owl house#sorry dev and hunter your parental figures are too busy being evil to pay attention to you#they could never care about you#not in this universe and probably not the others either#devzel#huntlow#mentioned#the owl house#dale dimmadome#emperor belos#hunter toh#I wanna make a dev and scaramouche parallel post but I don’t think any fop a new wish fans are genshin impact fans#hazel wells#luz noceda#fop peri#dishie posts#willow park
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you're trying to make things better. you're often times feeling really desperate because we have a sort of gut intuition that things are not going to go the way that we hope...
#tswiftedit#taylorswiftedit#taylor swift#userelena#lyric parallels#my thought experiment for 'what if reputation songs were included on the playlists'#and then i thought about how much of reputation is bargaining with the universe to let her have this one nice thing in peace#because this is her one and only her lifeline#at least i did one thing right!!#i think bargaining is the saddest of the playlists tbh#mine#taylor
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Hey hey hey can you do one about the dull buzzing pain of despair ?
i hope you're doing okay <33
pinterest / 堕落天使 Fallen Angles (1995) dir. 王家卫 Wong Kar-wai / Gail Honeyman Eleanor Oliphant is Completely Fine (via @weltenwellen) / Mitski A Burning Hill / Jeanette Winterson Gut Symmetries / Euphoria (2019-) dir. Sam Levinson / Fernando Pessoa English Song; A Little Larger Than the Entire Universe: Selected Poems / Mayday Parade I'd Rather Make All These Mistakes Than Make Nothing at All
#thinking about only doing happier ones bc the sad ones kinda have a negative affect on me tbh#on sadness#on loneliness#web weave#web weaving#poetry parallels#poetry compilation#fallen angels movie#wong kar wai#gail honeyman#eleanor oliphant is completely fine#mitski#a burning hill#jeanette winterson#gut symmetries#euphoria#sam levinson#fernando pessoa#a little larger than the entire universe#mayday parade#i'd rather make all these mistakes than make nothing at all#spilled feelings#spilled thoughts#spilled ink#spilled poetry#spilled words#dark academia poetry#dark academia quote#dark academia#poetry
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If you want to see Sad Sapphics breaking up in the darkness and rain before they've even started dating, you can watch Camp Cretaceous or you can watch Arcane. Same dish, different chefs, both delicious.
#arcane#camp cretaceous#vi x caitlyn#caitvi#vilyn#caitlyn kiramman#sammy gutierrez#yasmina fadoula#jwcc#this thought entered my head like...years ago#but I was just thinking about paralleling#it wasn't until last week that I realized I could probably just swap the dialogue#and this was horrifyingly easy#I have a slightly modified version too that I'll make later#where it could actually work in-universe#but for now I like the thought of readers just getting Really Confused when they hit Texas#it's also really fascinating because the lines work but the deliveries are different#yaz is quieter and more resigned#while vi is angrier and more vehement#meanwhile sammy is just confused#while caitlyn is desperate
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What’s the speculation on the goat and Shamura’s relationship to each other. I am not talking specifically about a ‘shipping’ perspective I mean this in like. General. I know sometimes the cult of the lamb devs sort of pander to popular headcanons / theories so that one Shamura + goat post might just be a fun little nod to fandom but man what if. What is the goat’s role in Shamura’s story? Were they used as a vessel for a Specific Purpose on Shamura’s behalf? Maybe used in Shamura’s conquest of the Lands / the Purge of the Old Pantheon before they had their rib cage cracked and gutted? Then their soul trapped in the Ether until the Lamb’s blood awoke them?? Who knows. The Goat also seems poison themed, and makes me think that Shamura personally gave the goat Shamura’s own venom from their fangs. How intimate to have the spider god sink their fangs into ur flesh and infuse you with Divine Venom! Anyways
I’ve headcanoned that Goatkind had a more social / physical advantage in the Lands of the Old Faith in that goats were able to seclude / isolate themselves from much of the violence because of their ability to survive in harsher environments, mountains / cliff-sides specifically since both domestic and wild goats are able to climb and keep balance on even the most steep of mountains / cliffs. (A caveat: this is true of *wild* sheep as well, but the sheepfolk seem based on domestic breeds, rather than wild species. Domestication rly nerfed some of the more advantageous traits of sheep lol) the cliffs / mountains would be made into a fortress, i think. I also think, like their cousin-species selling wool, they sold cashmere, which became much more of a luxury when Goatkind became exclusively housed in the mountains. If you desired cashmere, you’d have to survive the journey! And many don’t. And many don’t try. And the Goats would enter the valleys / flat-lands very rarely. Cashmere and Sheep wool post-Purge both became very rare fabrics.
I think, by chance, Shamura was able to snag the Goat as a vessel, someone unconquerable / untamable, to run their growing cult while they purged the Gods. To also adhere to the principles of war and attrition through conquest, the Goat, after all, can make use of their horns. They have a skull made of fucking steel. A perfect weapon. But maybe war lost its glory for the Goat, and they shunned Shamura and the destruction that they helped bring. Maybe the Goat sacrificed themselves to preserve what little honor they sought to keep. And maybe Shamura did Not Like That. Maybe the Goat and Shamura’s vessel stint is what inspired Narinder to use a vessel after his imprisonment. Dude idk I’m just throwing ideas at a wall!
#infernal talks#I know I’ve talked about this before when the Goat was first introduced#but I wonder what sort of tale of caution the Goat was supposed to serve#I know the Popular line of thinking is an alternative universe and most likely correct#but it’s not my favorite tbh 😔 I like the idea of a running vessel parallel to the Lamb#I also looooove the idea of Shamura using their venom to grant like. the Goat the ability to use their crown. idk man#the goat vs sheep family feuding would also be very funny to me#like what if the Goat was the origin point of the concept of Vesseldom. the Old Gods did not have any need for vessels
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I am once again overcome by the sheer magnitude of pranks Mikey and Leo could commit on the world of archaeology through their combined abilities of time and space
With enough time for Mikey in particular to be strong enough to make a small time portal - again within Leo’s portal opened in Someplace, Somewhere - they could plant so much shit just to mess with historians.
Like - Mikey wanted to try painting Greek-style pottery and Leo is like “hey hey wait…”
And now there is newly discovered evidence of Greek depictions of humanoid turtles laying around.
#rottmnt#rottmnt leo#rottmnt mikey#rise of the teenage mutant ninja turtles#rottmnt headcanons#‘but wouldn’t that be a paradox? wouldn’t it be a different timeline?’#that’s what Leo’s mainly there for!#I see Mikey’s abilities as time based#so he doesn’t have too much control over where that timeline is just how far back or forward#so it could be a different but parallel world to theirs if left as is#but I see LEO’S abilities as specifically space based#so with his portal acting as a homing spot for Mikey’s to open within#it can cause the time portal to open within the same timeline#and YES that does imply that all the shit they plant is already there lol they just don’t think about it#and yes Donnie does in fact get on their case in regard to Paradoxes but then decides it may be cool to see happen soooo#poor Raph has no idea what’s going on but Mikey and Leo are laughing hysterically#and Donnie is muttering with a maniacal grin about how fast the universe may implode if they mess things up enough#I would also like to note that while I do see Mikey’s abilities as more time based - since he IS the future greatest mystic warrior ever-#-I ALSO think he possesses the ability to harness smaller aspects of his brothers powers#not so much their abilities in entirety but more so base components#look at me and my paragraphs of tags once again rip
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OK I got to the end of act 4, learned there was more to do that had to happen before the ending, and then immediately lost motivation to do that more stuff because I was interrupting my narrative momentum. So I think what I’m going to do is make a save right here at act 4’s end, move forward into act 5, finish the game and experience that ending, then go back and load that save to experience the other stuff. That way I get to see the end, and then other possible endings where I do specific stuff (if this is a game with a “true/special” end, which I actually think it is.) without having to replay the whole game. Once I’m home and off the bus I’m going for it. Not sure if I’ll finish today, idk how long act 5 is.
#The Undertale-Pilled part of my brain is very resistant to doing shit like that but#I haven’t seen any indication that this is a game that’s tracking save/loads or playing#With that level of meta. The loops kind of almost act as a further abstracted/in universe version of that system actually#Huh there’s something to that thought. I’ll have to spend some time thinking about that parallel#After I finish the game#Isat#isat spoilers#in stars and time
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Pete: So, the toxicology report says that he was killed by belladonna
Max and Ruth:
Max and Ruth: The pornstar??
Steph:
Pete:
Pete: The poison
Max and Ruth: Oh-
#source: supernatural#meanwhile in a parallel universe#just because i was thinking about#max x ruth#incorrect quotes#starkid#incorrect starkid#incorrect nerdy prudes must die#nerdy prudes must die#incorrect hatchetfield#hatchetfield#hatchetverse#pete spankoffski#ruth fleming#max jagerman#steph lauter#au where everyone lives and nothing is wrong#and theyre all friends
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very cute that zoro was the one who was supposed to come and help usopp with this video, right? too bad he got lost on the way, but it's the thought that counts 😌
smth smth first mate being there for his friends
#like yes the others were mentioned but in a parallel universe zoro made it there#and then helped usopp with pointing out all his good qualities and smart thinking. yep#itd be funny if zoro would stand there like: i know luffy is and always will be my captain but its your birthday so you can go ahead today#this is half joking half serious tbh ive been thinking a lot about zosopp lately#zosopp#one piece#usopp#roronoa zoro#mine#gif:opla#gif:op other#opla
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How can you praise Andor for its nuance in its portrayal of Imperials and the Rebellion, but can’t accept any nuance when it comes to the Jedi, the Sith, and the Force. George Lucas, the literal creator of Star Wars, was the one to introduce the idea that the Jedi weren’t perfect and made many mistakes, and he helped his apprentice Dave Filoni showcase this even more in The Clone Wars, and then Dave continued to expand on George’s own ideas about the force in Rebels and his later projects.
So don’t be mad at Dave Filoni or Leslye Headland that the Jedi aren’t perfect, be mad at the literal creator of this franchise. Also, no project has ever made the case “The Jedi are just as bad as the Sith”. The Sith are very noticeably worse than the Jedi, always.
#the acolyte#star wars#yes this is a sub post directed at an anti acolyte post i saw#but also i see fans do this sooo much with filoni too#like i just think the guy who was the apprentice of george lucas and had intensive discussions with him about the force the jedi the NR etc#probably knows more about the universe than any of us online#leslye was also a huge prequels and clone wars fan and we already saw her make a parallel between ahsoka and osha in ep 1#idk maybe yall just need to pay attention more. develop some media literacy#some people need to use their brain more to think about what tf you’re watching and the meaning behind it
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Ough Sonourge/Shadeclipse parallels you mean so much to me
#sonic the hedgehog#archie sonic comics#sonourge#shadeclipse#shadclipse#novaeclipse#novaeclipseshipping#shadow the hedgehog#scourge the hedgehog#anti sonic#eclipse the darkling#i just be ramblin#archie sonic issue 191#archie sonic issue 196#sonic universe#sonic universe issue 60#shadow fall#sonic universe issue 68#archie sonic issue 192#girls when the literal embodiment of 'what if one of the mcs grew up differently and took a different path' extended a hand to the mc#they're based off of and wanted to become twin somethings with them and have them by their sides#and then they go into a special form and retaliate after being rejected by the mc who finds them twisted and evil#Scourge and Eclipse each wanted the other so badly it made them look stupid#the parallels man the parallels#not to mention that the 'join me' thing happens because Eclipse and Sonic/Scourge start thinking about the moral dilemma and decide that#despite the past their other can easily switch sides and join them#if they only wanted to
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