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throwawayasoiafaccount · 2 months ago

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Why do you think the tides have slightly turned from "Elia deserves better than Rhaegar" to shipping her and Rhaegar together? Like what is the psychology behind these people because I've seen some of them like/reblog anti Rhaegar posts while also shipping Rhaegar x Elia at the same time.

hey anon! my thoughts are a bit messy, but i’ve done my best to explain them coherently :)

so, rhaegar was the best man anyone could have when elia was alive, and most people want the best for their favs. he was considered the most handsome, didn’t have a bad personality, and he was crown prince—meaning elia was almost queen, which is often seen as the greatest role a woman can have. the narrative also treats rhaegar as a beautiful, tragic, haunting figure, and elia actually had this very aesthetically pleasing man all to herself at one point! she was married to him, had children with him, and her life was so close to perfect! but rhaegar just had to go and ruin it. 😠

for many elia stans, if rhaegar hadn’t fallen in love with another woman (they want him to have been a completely different character), then everything would’ve been perfect, and elia would’ve had the best, most desirable life. however, that’s not what happened—elia met a very tragic end, and as a result, these stans feel double the bitterness. because of this bitterness, they blame rhaegar for everything (even though it’s not logical to do so), but he’s just too ‘perfect’ to let go of. so, for years these stans have made rhaegar revolve around elia, filling his tag with posts about her out of bitterness. so, i do believe that this obsession with rhaegar x elia has always been there, but i think it’s become a more favorable stance on the elia stan side of the fandom because of a mix of reasons.

plus, rhaegar is one of the few canon relationships we know elia had, since she’s not much of a character. because of this, and the fact that most people don’t like to stray too far from canon, most elia stans are forced to focus on rhaegar, which has created an echo chamber. basically, if a sentiment about elia and rhaegar’s relationship becomes popular, then the whole elia stan side of the fandom will likely regurgitate the sentiment. (also, this desire to stick close to canon is likely why the elia x arthur ship was so popular. while it’s a total crack ship, it had good aesthetics, and since elia and arthur at least knew each other, it allowed the stans to create their perfect fanfiction whilst sticking it to rhaegar. but remember, elia was actually married to rhaegar and had children with him, so while arthur is cool, rhaegar was always ‘top dog,’ meaning arthur would never be able to match up to rhaegar to most elia stans. also, the arthur x elia crack ship is likely her second most popular ship, which just shows how little elia stans have to work with, so they’re always forced to eventually return back to rhaegar for a lot of things.)

however, even if the elia x rhaegar ship gains more popularity, these stans will never stop hating rhaegar because he wasn’t ‘perfect’—and he wasn’t perfect because he didn’t love elia. plus, rhaegar loving another woman and supposedly kidnapping her is what began the war that led to elia’s tragic death. that’s bitterness times 1000. and while i don’t actually blame rhaegar for the war, i do think that this is how an elia stan sees it. i also don’t view rhaegar’s complex relationship with elia as a bad thing—it’s actually a very realistic take on an arranged marriage between two decent people. but most elia stans will never be able to get over the fact that they almost had everything, which is why many have it out for lyanna, as they consider her a thief who ruined their ‘perfection.’

tbh, that might be why so many elia stans are so obsessed with the idea that rhaegar only got with lyanna because of the prophecy—they don’t want to believe that rhaegar actually loved a different woman and not their perfect self insert elia. that’s a bit mean of me… but i don’t know what else one would call the ‘elia’ elia stans have created.

now that i’ve laid all those thoughts out, i’ll try to explain why the tides seem to be turning… i think it may have something to do with the ‘targaryens are all evil and bad’ sentiment losing popularity. i think this shift has occurred due to a mix of factors, such as years of fandom fights and fandom cycles leading to the targs being more liked now than before. it helps that canon doesn’t actually condemn the targs/favors them quite a bit, and the influx of new targ fans from HOTD has also contributed. this combination of reasons seems to have shifted the way the mainstream fandom discusses all the targaryen characters, including rhaegar. so, with this shift, it’s only natural that some elia stans/elia x rhaegar shippers—who’ve always been there—are using this opportunity to push their agenda. while these stans still hate rhaegar and see him as the bad guy, they just can’t let go of him. and as the mainstream fandom moves away from the anti targaryen sentiment, these smaller corners of the fandom, which tend to be echo chambers, are also affected, which has therefore led to a rise in rhaegar x elia shippers and the ‘shifting tide’ that you’ve also noticed.

#‘if only rhaegar did this’ is a very common sentiment amongst elia stans #most stans have always had the ‘if only’ mindset #‘if only elia survived’ easily leads to ‘if only rhaegar didn’t run off with his whore’ as the targs become less hated #it’s kinda a pipeline? rhaegar anti plus elia stan leads to rhaegar x elia shipper who still hates rhaegar #another reason that a lot of this happens is because elia and the martells plus dorne are the good ‘others’ a person can like #while the targaryens are the ‘bad others’ one can safely hate as they’re white & have a bit of demon symbolism + come from an ‘evil’ empire #the targs also ruled over everyone so a lot of fans like pushing all the blame onto them for all the problems #however the targs are cool and they’re hot af and being royalty is the best! so they’re the ‘bad others’ one can safely hate #but people still want their aesthetic and want their favs to have what the targs had. all the cool magic + the aesthetic + danys monikers #so people can convince themselves that it’s okay and logical and right to hate the targs but most ppl will still connect their favs to them #of course… things have been shifting in the fandom which i’m very happy about #and all of these sentiments are combined and compressed when it comes to rhaegar and elias relationship #so any big shift on how the fandom views the targs will always affect the way rhaegar and elias relationship is viewed #it just so happens that the targs aren’t the evil dragon nazis anymore so it’s kinda okay for elia stans to ship him with her #i’m not gonna go through my tags and make sure they make sense so i’m simply hoping for the best #anyways… i hope i didn’t digress too much. i just found this shift so interesting so i couldn’t help myself #asoiaf fandom critical #anti elia stans #rhaegar targaryen #anti rhaegar x elia #house targaryen #valyrianscrolls #pro rhaelya #lyanna stark #rhaegar x lyanna #anon ask #thanks anon this was a fun topic to cover #i recently found a really old post about both elia and lyanna and boy… it was quite discusting to read #elia stans kinda cycle from ‘elia deserved better x crack ship with shallow aesthetic’ back to elia x rhaegar while shitting on rhaelya #just know that rhaegar is always the bad guy to them! the sentiment on lyanna will go from hot to cold but rhaelya is always bad as well!

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multifunctionalnitroglycerin · 8 months ago

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Leona and Diana Old Lore / New Lore. My take on it

Okay so, I am relatively new to the League community, with barely three years under my belt, but lore is one of the things that interest me the most about it. And well, the dynamic between Sun and Moon coded characters is one I never pass up in exploring. Leodia is arguably my favorite ship from League, but it's mostly the idea of it, with recent executions leaving me feel kinda... meh.

So apart from probably having read every single half decent fic under the Leona/Diana tag on Ao3, I have scourged the internet for their lore and have come across quite a few references of their old one. Never found the complete thing though. And possibly unpopular opinion, I like it better than their current one.

That is not to say that the old lore is any sort of masterpiece, and people could argue that it doesn't set them up to be lovers, but I think with a little bit of tweeking it can become really good. Many of my ideas are inspired from a fic I probably read like 2 years ago, also features an OC named Helena and has a side of Riven's inner struggle, Riven and Diana friendship and Rivelia. (I cannot for the life of me remember the name, I apologise)

My problem with the New Lore mostly, is that it's vanilla for a mountain of warriors and *cultists* it feels almost like High School AU but try to fit it into League, and yeah it's not it for me. Also the co-dependence of their ascension, and just Leona's whole thing kinda sucks. Like I can see how people might see it as romantic and poetic and whatever, that they ascended at the same time and Leona followed Diana up the mountain to keep her safe etc. etc. but that's kinda glossing over some issues especially with Leona's character.

Now the new take on Leona's character is really interesting, and a complete 180 from the old lore and actually the idea isn't so bad, if they ACTUALLY DID ANYTHING WITH IT. Now as a person that definitely doesn't overanalyze literature and fictional characters for fun, Leona's new lore is such an interesting take and could be taken many directions if someone chose to explore it and go a bit deeper that "genocidal close-minded bigot".

At first read Leona is really just that. She does what she is told no hesitation, no questions asked and turns on Diana also no questions asked. But let's take it a bit deeper shall we?

I have no intention to make it as though Leona holds no blame for her actions or that she is a paragon of virtue, cause she is not. But if we dive in her story a bit more we could perhaps understand how she came to be what she is. Because under no circumstance do I think she is that daft. Especially if she was with Diana for years. Some of that curiosity must have rubbed off on her. Then again she could have just ignored everything Diana said about the Moon and her research. I guess we'll never know.

I do not intent to ramble about Leona in this post. But I'll give you some clues as to why her backstory and the whole Targonian premise is important. She is born practically into a cult, or well a religion with really strict and particular disciplines. So already an environment with very particular ideas and particular ways to enforce them. She is the daughter of two really strict and proud parents in said cult, who seem to care more abt her achievements and punishments than anything (Grade A parenting), - She doesn't even send them that letter in the end - and she is the golden child of the Solari. So what do we have in our hands? An affection starved perfectionist suffering from gifted child expectations. NOw take that and put it in the Solari premise of religious fanatism and voila!

(I will probably at some point make a separate post abt this, because I really took a deep dive in Leona's character when writing my Ruination fic - that I wont ever post anywhere probably - and I have a LOT to say)

So in the old Lore the Rakkori are the warriors and defenders of the mountain, a bit heavy on the bloodthirsty side though, hence the right of Kor. A coming of age ritual battle to the death. (What else could it be). Leona being the only one that refuses to kill her opponent and friend, is sentenced to be executed, but before the execution could be carried out, she is claimed by the Golden Sister as the Sun aspect with a beam of golden light.

I feel that Leona's ascension in particular is really important in the old Lore, because in such a warlike culture she was rewarded for showing mercy. She was chosen because she chose mercy over mindless slaughter. Something that could potentially be really important later on, in a mountain where half its indigenous people have slaughtered the other half??

Point 1 I like from the old lore: The Sun chose Leona because she was merciful. (Or had a semblance of a moral compass)

Moving forward the lines kinda blur for Diana, mostly cause I am not sure what I remember is actual lore and what is related to that magnificent fic.

Her curious truth-searching nature is ever present. She discovers hidden texts, burned pages and embarks on a journey of knowledge that leads her to climb the mountain. Only she is in the company of an elderly woman I think? Anyhow, she finds - is lead to - an alcove, an old temple and the relics of the Moon Aspect. Overjoyed at her findings she dons the armor takes it all down to the elders, they call her a heretic, brand her, and intent to kill her, when she begs the Moon for help and ascends. Either her or the moon blast kills every elder in the room she gets blamed either way, and the chase begins.

Diana is at her core an academic and a researcher, that researches. She has her Indiana Jones moment in the mountain and there is a process a ritual to it, instead of I just climbed up saw unimaginable terrors and now I am the aspect of the Moon (over-simplified I know. The climb judges worthiness). There is something about her checking old dusty books, and deciding to brave the climb looking for answers. About her choosing to be helpful -kinda as a mirror to Leona sparing her opponent, Diana, the one that keeps to herself - apart from when arguing abt academics and scriptures consciously engages with and helps a stranger, guiding them up the mountain and helping them along the way when the trip became too arduous.

Point 2 I like from the old lore: The ritual of the process in Diana's research and ascension and the mirroring with Leona, minor though it is, that they ascended - sooner or later - after an act of kindness that contradicted what would have been expected of them.

Point 3 I like from the old lore: The brand. Like it just adds another layer to Diana's character. And is a much better explanation for its presence than Moon magic. Also the amount of complications this act has, its just delicious. I mean THE DRAMA. and ofc THE TRAUMA. I don't think she'd go near a fire for months.

Point 3 I like from the old lore: The independence of the ascensions. It gives us the chance to see them grow and evolve as their own people before the thread of fate that binds them together appears. We get to see one without the other, and that would later make their dynamic more interesting.

But How are Leona and Diana connected?

In the old lore they aren't. I think. Leona is like a blood hound that needs to kill the heretic.

In the fic, Leona's dad was one of the guards in the room when Diana ascended and was killed, which in the context of the story adds a layer of betrayal between them, as up to that point they were lovers. And you know what, I really like that idea. And I was thinking that perhaps we could try to get the best of both worlds. Though it might be difficult to fully develop the idea.

Lore Idea:

So the Rakkor ans the Solari are different factions. Solari = priesthood, Rakkor = Warriors. Leona's family are Rakkori, and they are simple people, her father works as a guard for the Solari Temple, something that is considered a bit of an honor despite that fact that the factions don't rly see eye to eye about everything. Right of Kor happens when they are around 15 (Yes I want to traumatize a bunch of teenagers that train to fight, kill and defend since they could walk) and Leona's story proceeds as we know it. She then gets taken to the Solari temple to be educated in their way and train to become the figurehead of their faith. (Like that Leona has already had the chance to develop some critical thinking, and to experience sth different.)

She gets there and all the acolytes younger and older look at her starry eyed, because the elders told them so and because they see her like a bit of a Messiah. (Plus I doubt a bunch of scrawny academics and priests to be have seen anyone their age with that musculature). All of them apart from Diana, who as always isn't particularly impressed by the paragon in training of the Solari faith.

Leona is relieved to get some normal person treatment, even if it is from the broody girl with her nose in a book half the time, and like the cocky 15year old meathead she is, she wants to show off a bit and perhaps win her favor. Shenanigans ensue and Diana unlike the other people that desperately want to befriend Leona, is not impressed.

Another point of similarity is that Leona - that has ascended already mind you - would have a few questions and oppositions to all that mumbo jumbo the Solari say about the Sun and the Moon. So after she flops exceptionally in one oration or sth class, with saying something positive about the Moon that has the students look at her with horror, and the priest fuming and screaming punishments - light ones, because the Sun chose that clueless miscreant, and he doesn't want to fall out of her favor - Leona manages unknowingly to win inquisitive Diana's intrigue - and favor, (but don't tell anyone about the last part).

A tentative bond forms. It gets solidified when Leona stops a few bullies from beating Diana to a pulp, and the dark haired girl in return helps her pass a class she was having an exceptionally hard time with. Diana - who in my head is a year younger - does eventually get charmed by the surprisingly goofy and sunny disposition of the Sun Aspect in training. (Don't get this wrong Leona will still act like a 15 yo that has had to train and fight every day of her life) Diana asks her countless questions about life outside the temple and they discuss theology together, either trying to help Leona understand, or trying to make sense of Diana's findings. (The Rakkori in my head are far more neutral abt Sun and Moon, more like if there is light and I can see I am happy, whether its the Sun or the Moon. "There was even that one traveler from some big city, Pilt - something was it, that even said that the Sun and Moon are like orbs in the night sky, one is a star rly close to us and the other is like a smaller planet or something, can you imagine?")

The become friends, the Nightless Eve happens, and then they become lovers. Leona starts suffering from all those expectations and the charade she needs to put up, she has more hours with classes and training she gets tutored by the priests, punished more severely when se speaks out of line or says something borderline heretical, yada yada. More people like her and she likes the attention. She doesn't abandon Diana though, and she always defends her. Things get difficult as the years go by but still they persist. (We could include some homophobic sentiment in the Solari, or even sth downright misogynistic, which would add complications with Leona's state as the Radiant Dawn, and the wlw relationships as they would not be seen as real substantial relationships - add asshole trying to flirt with Leona bc her relationship with Diana isn't real cause they are both women- DRAMA)

Leona is 18 passes her final exams, and Diana is 17 when Diana's arc happens. They have a huge fight about faith and contradicting it and if it is worth it. (No one wants to bandage their lover's whipped back that is practically a mosaic of scars at this point, or nurse them to health after sever dehydration - cause yes apparently standing naked in the sun for three days can do that). Diana storms off angrily. Finds an elderly woman in the base of the mountain that needs help going up (Silver sister in disguise). She helps her up, and when they are like 3/4 up and rest cause Diana's everything hurts the woman disappears. She looks around, finds the temple, sees carved proof that the Solari and Lunari co-existed gets the relics and climbs back down excited to show everyone her findings.

Meanwhile Leona has left for an emergency Solari mission or sth, and hasn't told Diana. Diana goes to the priests, they don't believe her, she invokes her right to be judged by the Aspect or sth, the priests pretend that Leona is still around and doesn't want to see or help Diana (Strike 1 of betrayal). Diana feels betrayed and hurt and fears for her life. The priests give the order for her to be branded and executed on the spot. Leona's dad who had been in the room and had met Diana, tries to plead her case from an outsider's perspective. One of the elders reprimands him and threatens him with death.

They brand Diana with the moon Symbol on the forehead, and are about to place her face down in the flames and / or slit her throat, and Iasur can't have her dying thinking that Leona betrayed her (A bit of family honor and afterlife beliefs - honor is a huge deal-, and a bit of a soft spot for his daughter's closest companion). He tries to fight his way to her, and gets killed in the process. Diana witnessing Iasur's murder prays to the moon for help, and seconds before breathing her last breath, she ascends. Pillar of Moonlight and heavenly fire burns everything to a crisp, and Diana remains alone in the middle of the room, barely breathing and clad in the garb of he Moon aspect. She takes one look around her and speeds away from the temple.

Leona returns three days after to find the council and her father dead, the council room in ruins and apparently Diana to blame. On top of that Diana is missing. Leona is presented with the case and believes Diana to be her father's killer. She vows to avenge him and kill the Scorn of the Moon, because her Diana wouldn't do that. It must be the moon spirit. and yes apparently Moon is bad because dad and Diana are gone bc of it. Leona is determined to save her lover from the Moon's clutches and set her free the only way she knows how, with killing her.

And thus their journey begins. Leona becomes more and more of a puppet from here and on driven by anger and betrayal and Diana feels abandoned and betrayed, with nothing left in the world but the glow of the branding mark on her forehead and the knowledge that her lover wanted her dead.

And as for their path to reunite again and achieve peace? Well Leona needs to be merciful, and Diana needs to guide and support someone through the right path.

Thanks for reading this huge ass post. Again MANY credits to that amazing writer on Ao3, if I find that fic I'll put a link here, cause its phenomenal.

Take care and see ya next time!

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