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sage-is-in-fact-very-tired · 11 months ago

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welcome to the "wow, that's some interesting manipulation you got there mr.fable sir; want me to analyze it for you?" + a couple other things about thursdays lore post

this'll be a ride (the 4252 word kind), its roughly kinda organized (the manipulation section goes mostly chronologically-), but i think its gets all our points across pretty well

echo [@echos-of-incoherence], my partner in crime (/lh /pos), helped immensely with this!!! we kept bouncing thoughts of each other and adding to them, so this is the post combining everything we talked about thursday (+ a little friday) post lore.

[TW/CW - Lore spoilers; discussions of manipulation, death, and murder]

so. im. going to go in order of “we talked about this the least” to “we has so many thoughts this was most of the conversation”

[so, shockingly, we start with quixis.]

Where Icarus sees quixis’ power slowly increase and get stronger; fable sees the worst of it first. He sees them at their strongest this far - with the bunker, redstone, trail, and wings - and he hasn't seen anything else of them. They were completely blocked from sight in As It Is, and they weren't in any of the books around; so fable has no point of reference *until* unlocked, that's his first proper time seeing them in *action.* He knows of their strength; that they're *strong,* but he doesn't truly see it until this; until the first time he's out purgatory in years. “Again and again he is shown examples of this power throughout his time in the grove, and he continues to lead Icarus back to his voice of reason every time.” [Quote direct from Echo] So then the cathedral happens - Icarus injures both ven (shoulder) and fable (hand); but by proxy, now fable has access to Quixis’ power. It's literally at his fingertips, and he uses that well and to his advantage. (To note - he definitely uses manipulation with this, and that will be touched on soon.) As soon as they fly back from the cathedral to Icarus’ house, fable rushes them *away* from the bunker, away from a place of *safety;* and instead leads them to the alter. The place he used once, to create, and a place he knows he can *control.* He uses the power at his fingertips to his advantage and he *looks* - no matter if it hurts Icarus, hurts his *kid* (which we will *also* get into) - he looks and he *sees.* he sees so close the power he's been searching for, the power he *needs* - the whole worldport at his fingertips, and he'll use it. “And his truer intentions are revealed, because Icarus won't be needed anymore after this.” [Direct quote from Echo] Once he takes it out, takes the power from them (inevitably killing them in the process), Icarus won't be needed. He will no longer need them as a access point if he *has* it, has that power. Centross interrupts this, he interrupts and he fights and he tries. And now Fable is mortal, and Icarus is even more vital to him. Considering that, he probably won't be able to fully attempt the ritual again, due to the while being mortal thing. So, to quote Echo directly again, “he has to start working them again, even harder this time.” also, the power stream. Fable was, for all intents and proposes, attempting to see how useful Icarus could be to him. See if they had any powers of their own - if they did, what were they - how they could be used for his gain. But their only show of power ended up being quixis. Which wasn't even *them,* it was quixis. “I feel like that kind of sealed the deal for him – hence his whole thing about using Icarus to access and use that power for himself” [Direct quote from Echo]

You also have the potential fallout of this; specifically the multiversal kind for this part of the conversion. The previous messing with multiverse things, was with a pre-existing rift between worlds; it still managed to destroy/collapse a whole world. (Presumably, due to Portal's connection with Mer, where the rift was opened too.) And the people involved in this do know, somewhat, of the multiverse, but none of them quite travel through it. All that was done was the widening of a rift, and a transfer of consciousness. In this case, well. Its significantly different. What fable was attempting to do, I believe, would've pretty much been pulling Icarus’ entire connect to the Worldport *out of them*, which is a powerful thing, and using it as said powerful thing. You also need to add in the fact that Icarus *knows* of the worldport, has been in it, is the most connected to it beside quixis. Where krit (or any of the other sherbs) absolutely was/is/are not. Considering fable getting to the point where he nearly pulled it *out*, and considering it left a mark - big splotch of wacky (*not* wack, just a little wacky) dull rainbow on Icarus’ chest - it will probably have a much larger effect on the worldport as a whole - and quixis - than the rift did. Which, considering how decayed the worldport already is, will *not* be a good thing. Some might actually say a bad thing. A *very* bad thing.

[That concludes the quixis part; now onto the Haley and Centross death parallels. And general thoughts about that.]

Both Centross and Haley died, technically, due to an action taken by Icarus. But the deaths themself - in the way it happened, Icarus’ actions, and the fallout of them - could not be more opposite of eachother. Haley was killed directly by Icarus themself; intentionally and without any remorse for their actions. They didn't want her back right away - they didn't want her back until they were uncorrupted and back to, mostly, themself - in their own words, “I need her dead.” Then, in their attempts to get her back, *bring* her back, they're told that she can't be. Alerion tells them, to their face, that the dead cannot be brought back to life. And yet, in the end, she is. Quixis changes it so that Haley comes through the portal; changes it so she walks through that purgatory portal and is *alive* alive again. Despite everything, she's brought back. Where Centross death; it's caused by fable. Fable is who kills him, in the end. But it's Icarus’ actions that lead them there - following fable to the alter, and agreeing to do what he wanted (no blame, I understand why they did as they did, however it how they were led to centross’ death, so it's included.) But on Icarus’ side, Centross’ death was not intentional - fable wanted to kill him, Icarus clearly had objections - Icarus did not *want* him dead in any way. They want him back now - they *need* him back now. They don't want their best friend dead and gone and not coming back. And Fable. And Fable feels into that need; tells them that centross can be brought back. That he will be brought back; soon. He will be. Despite everything we know contradicting this. He'll do it. (Because he needs Icarus on his side; and promising to bringing back the person he killed? their best friend? one of the best ways to do that.) Additionally; if centross” death is mirroring haleys like it seems to be, then I sincerely doubt he will be brought back as *centross* centross.

[Most of this next paragraph is paraphrasing Echo] Fable's plan, the whole idea and premise behind it, hinges fully on Centross and his death. It's not likely he can be brought back in similar ways to Haley - especially seeing as he is, presumably, with epros somewhere (somewhere on the void) as opposed to in purgatory. Icarus, however, does not know this. Icarus additionally doesn't know that Centross was going to die anyway - Fable can say that he only died because he interfered, but we as chat know this to be incorrect. Centross was going to die soon regardless of what happened. (Rae knows, at the least, that something is happening with centross. That he was hurting when he flew off. He doesn't know the full story, but he knows *something* is up.) But with the whole “centross can be brought back, he wouldn’t've died if he hadn't interfered, etc,” Fable is very clearly using Icarus’ lack of knowledge of this against them; making them believe these things.

[That concludes that section; now begins “why fable absolutely would've just killed Icarus and left them dead had centross not interfered”]

Fable would’ve killed Icarus, and it would’ve been for longer than the moment he said it would be. He said that it would’ve been after he did what he felt needed to have been done; all the stuff with killing gods and replacing primordials. Which, all things considered, absolutely would've taken longer than a moment, longer than ‘skipping a breath.” Had centross no interfered, he would've killed them, left them dead until he was done with all he needed to do, and then brought them back. But considering all we've seen - even then, I doubt he would've actually brought them back. They would hold no use to him anymore, so what would've been the point? To quote myself here, “He was just going to kill them and he wasn't going to bring them back once he was done. They weren't going to be useful to him, no longer a pawn in his game. Just a husk of something he no longer needs, because it's [power] all at his fingertips. he only stopped because centross stopped him.”

He also says all of this stuff about “his heart dying with them,” that if they die, his heart will too. Yet, he also screams in Centross’ face about all he can create. All he can make with his own two hands. All he can sculpt and mold. If he wished so badly, if he really truly did, he could’ve just made another child. He wouldn’t've kept his word to Icarus, because once he took the portal, took that power, there was no use for them anymore. To use a chess analogy, it'd be like changing the pawn to a queen once you reach the other side; you change one use for another, and you don't get the old use back, especially considering the new use is more powerful. (In this case, Icarus for power; you'd take the power, but not bring them back because there isn't anything left for them to do; they fulfilled their purpose.) He would've killed them, he absolutely would've killed them and left them dead because they were no longer of use, but Centross intervened and suddenly his plans - both of doing that, and killing gods + replacing primordials - were tilted very askew. “He had to regroup. he has to now rebuild that trust with Icarus in order to try the ‘portal removal’ again, and he probably can't even do it because of the reaver.” [Quote direct from Echo]

[That concludes that, I have so many thoughts about it, and now begins “that's some interesting manipulation you did mr.fable sir, you want an analysis on it? cause I got one right here for your viewing pleasure.”]

The manipulation doesn't take very long to start. It starts almost immediately after they get back to Icarus’ house, in fact. He says “Quixis could kill me,” says how this is an injury only a god could give to another god - at least, supposedly. Quixis’ godly status is. debated - and he says this straight to Icarus’ face. Now, Icarus has this inherent need, or idea, to help and be useful to everyone around. To not hurt them. They want to be useful, and fix the stuff they end up breaking. (Because thy always end up breaking something, don't they?) This definitely got more noticeable post-corruption, but I have a feeling that this was there even before that. Now, fable, being both their father, and having been in purgatory for so long, *knows this,* and he uses it to his advantage. He tells them he's hurt, knowing all of that - because im sure he knows that by now, but that he has a way to fix it, and that Icarus can help. And they believe him, because why in the world would he lie about that. So when he leads them to the alter, leads them there under the guise that it'll help, they believe him. They believe that this'll help, and they always want to help - to fix whenever they hurt their family. This whole idea continues into the cave; that they're both marked for *death,* but that Icarus has been for so so much longer, and then he brings up quixis. Something they've wanted to fix for years and years and he says he can *take them out.* That he can fix and solve everything that's been happening around them; remove all the other from them - something I'm sure he's well aware they want at this point. He tells them how this will go, that it will hurt - their immediate response, not even seconds later, being that they can handle it - and he keeps that up. Because he knows, well now, that they will listen to him. That they believe what he says, and that they want to help, be good, be useful. That they want *him* to see them as good and useful; and in the end, they believe it; believe *him.*

[Most of this next paragraph is paraphrasing Echo - anything quoted is directly from Echo] Fable has a goal, pretty clearly based around power; overcoming enderian, overcoming and killing gods, replacing primordials. For all intents and purposes, overcoming anything that will get in his way of power. “There is something fable wants, and he needs *some sort of* help to get it – he needs Icarus to trust him.” So, he twists his strategy to play at and to Icarus’ flaw; guilt. Icarus is guilty about so so much; everything that happened during corruption, hurting the people they care about and love, “and repeating (rhyming) history time and time again.” it's pretty clear as day they feel the guilt about this; they shy away when it gets brought up, or they go quiet, or or or. And so, Fable leans - pretty heavily - into that flaw. He gives them the validation they want in varying amounts so they crave more of it; he treats Rae like a son - a proper son - because he knows all Icarus wants is a happy family. Unlike Rae, they don't remember the other things - don't remember the *bad* and the worse, only the good, or mostly good. “The inherent need to be seen and loved and viewed as someone who can be good enough to love (and good overall) is their Achilles heel.” Fable continues this, he adds to this, with his words on multiple occasions. Post cutscene - post Centross death, post fight, post it all going *wrong* - Icarus is straying - Icarus was almost killed by their own father, they *watched* Fable kill their best friend - and Fable, well, he can't have that, now can he? “So he leans harder on that heel. He says they can bring back their best friend (death is a source of guilt for them because Haley.) They could take care of quixis (who has caused them several problems several times, which they continue to feel guilty about as well) and fix it. That's the heart of it all, fixing everything.” Icarus feels constantly like they keep messing up; keep fucking everything up. But with this, if they could fix everything wrong with their world (quixis), and by proxy everything that they've done wrong to the world, then that guilt wouldn’t have to be there anymore. They fixed it, what left is there to be guilty about? “Fable furthers this by asking for their help, again and again. Showing them that they *can* fix something, giving them some small confidence in their ability to help whenever it falters. He feeds this image of a loving, fulfilled life and pulls at the feelings of them and their loved ones to alter the image to how he sees it.” The cave broke that baseline idea, and now he as to work - harder, even more - to build it back up; although, clearly not all of it has crumbled away. We don't really have an idea for how his plans have changed now that hes mortal and not a god. However, we can take a guess. His manipulation is going to start to become a lot more forthcoming; he's seen the power held within Icarus, and he's not going to let that slip away through his fingers – not like he has everything else.

He plays into their guilt about everything - all of it. all all *all* of it. He plays into their need to be good and to be loved and to fix everything. He wants - *needs* - them there and the way to do that is to validate them and their feelings; give them the attention and give them the love. (“I love you, Icarus. I would never sacrifice you. Not for anything.”) He tells them this can all be fixed if they just let him help. And because they want that - need that; their best friend is dead for fucks sake - they believe him. Believe all those sickly sweet lies, because they need it. They need him back, they can't have another person die because of *them.* and so they play right into his hands. The denial of everything that just happened creeps back in, and they believe him because he says he can fix it; make it all better. He leaves out - intentionally so - the parts where he tried, and was fully willing, to kill them. He leaves out the part is which *he* killed centross. “He pushes away their distress and anger and fear about all of it by saying he can make it better. Because of how emotionally fragile they are, it’s easier to believe that to be true. It’s easier to believe that their dad is just that.” [Direct quote from Echo] Denial clings to the smaller ideas, the ones that fable pushes away - nearly killing them, killing *him* - and it forces away anything that contradicts them; all with the help of fable - with his guidance. He leaves out nearly killing them, leaves out killing centross, and instead plays to their needs. They need their friend back, and he'll find a way - or, he'll tell them he knows a way, or that he will - to bring Centross back; they want everything better and he'll make it that way; they want everything fixed, and he'll fix it. He plays into what they need and want and leaves out everything they don't want to acknowledge.

Fable manages to get it into Icarus’ head that they have to be the one to fix this - or that they *will* be the one to fix this. They ask “How do I fix him? How?” “I have to fix everything” and “I can fix everything.” He gets it into their head that *theyll* fix it, or at least help in the process. He plays into their need and eagerness to help, to be *helpful.* That's his entire idea and plan; to use Icarus’ flaws and needs against *them* and for his own gain.

Icarus brings up the curve ball of Alerion telling them that people can't be brought back from the dead, and fable *almost immediately* defects with a line about how quixis brought Haley back, didn't they? Which was not only not answering the question Icarus asked, but also like, quixis’ power is so very different from anything else we know of; things quixis can do - bring people back, switch places, change stuff in the way they do, etc - is not something most other people - or gods - could/can do. Yet, he knows how much power quixis must hold - if Icarus has this much, how much must the god of that realm? - how he could bring everyone back with it. But he *doesn't have that power,* it's still well within Icarus. It's also an entirely foreign concept to him, quixis’ power - alerion's as well, considering - he doesn't really know how their work; yet he acts like he does. He acts like facing them will prove alright and that he'll figure it out in the end.

He goes back to the death thing after Icarus picks up the reaver. He goes on a shpeal about wanting to beat death and how he *will* beat death and how they'll bring Centross back. He keeps insisting that; that they'll bring Centross back. He needs them to know that. Needs to to know everything will be okay and that everything can be *fixed.* he just keeps going and going about that. In there eyes, Icarus’ biggest mistake was killing haley. Her death had a massive massive impact on them, and fable absolutely knows this. “He's nailing the point to the fucking ground because he knows how much death terrifies them because of their dances with it in the past. He is fo *fucking* insistent because that's his whole driving force in getting them to believe – to trust – him.” [Quote direct from Echo] And then, the second Icarus brings up his wound and his wings, Fable gets quiet. And then, he brings up the fact he's dying. He's *dying* and he demands it to be *slow* and that this was the reaver's fault; the reaver took something from him. And now Icarus, who has the reaver - has their last piece of centross held in their hands - gives said reaver to him. They come to, separately but with Fable's herding, the idea that he needs the reaver back to fix this. The reaver could reverse it, or at the very least do *something* to help, so they sink and give it to him. They're playing into his hands, because he absolutely knew they would do that. “He's likely been watching them for a really long time while in purgatory, meaning he knows the ins and outs of who they are as a person, at least to *some* degree. He’s watched how they think and how their brain translates information and how emotions play into so many of their actions. He's memorized the facets of their reactions and responses to create a script designed to contort and abuse those very elements of Icarus for his own gain.” [Direct quote from Echo]

Fable also convinces them that no one - us as the chat included - understand how grave this entire situation is, and how they're doing exactly what they need to do to make this right. He uses them being emotional and devastated by centross to get them to believe and trust him. He tells them that no one will understand that Centross *will* come back; that hes not really gone. That the people Icarus would tell would only be focused on the fact he's dead in the first place - fable glosses over the fact that he even did *die;* because he'll come back, so it's all fine. “We don't have to acknowledge the fact that fable still fucking killed him because in the end, he won't be dead.” [Direct quote from Echo] - and he gets Icarus on the side and idea of *not telling anyone* regardless of if centross is coming back or not.

Even after the two of them leave the cave, he continues to pile it on. Fable tells them it will be joyous soon, that everything will be fixed soon and that everything will be *okay* soon; and he's still just playing into their wants and needs. He knows that what they want - knows that *exactly what they want - and so he just keeps at it. He keeps insisting and insisting that it will be, and so they believe him. They just want everything to be *okay* and why wouldn't their dad want to make it that for them?

Once they get back to the house, it's all mostly alright, but there's one final thing that sticks out to me. When Icarus mentions that they could get fable new clothes he snaps at them. He gets loud and he sound almost *angry.* and then he immensely backtracks and repeats himself much less sharp; much softer. Snapping like that would push them away, and he realizes that, so he backtracks on it. “He can't use fear like they did with Athena – it has to be built on trust and care in order to get anywhere. Fear would push Icarus, so he changes his response straight away.” [Direct quote from Echo] Icarus doesn't notice this - or if they do they don't pay attention to or care about it - since their far more focused on helping their dad heal and feel better. (And a quick honorary mention to him falling asleep in Icarus’ bed and them not saying anything about it. Centross used to do that, you know, after rough conversions, sit with them there until they fell asleep.)

He doesn’t need Icarus afraid, he needs them compliant. He needs them trusting of his every word, and he fucked it up; so he has to get that back. And he *will,* because he knows *exactly* how. He knows exactly what strings to tug and what emotions to pull to get them exactly where he wants them; exactly where he *needs* them. And he'll pull and tug those until he does.

#and so i have thoughts and feelings #and i #yeah okay theres no playing this off as normalcy but #i needed to get my thoughts out so big post #just. thinking so many thoughts and having many feelings /vvpos #anyway. uh #daniel's acting is so so *so* good and is making me feel so many things /vvpos #quixis #icarus morningstar #sherbertquake56 #fable smp #fsmp #a tag to help find my own posts

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reel-fear · 8 months ago

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Honestly, every single time the whole 'poppy playtime is a bendy rip-off' stuff ever shows up I find it all extremely unconvincing and silly.

For one thing, rip-off usually is meant to imply that it's a cheap lazy copy of a better more polished thing, and uh. Sorry but even from chapter 1? Poppy Playtime is a better game than Bendy, it has a simple but understandable story, the game manages to be thrilling, creepy, and very intense at times... I mean that Huggy chase in the vents ALONE puts it way above Batim for me.

I mean BATDR had the most slow stupid chase I've ever seen [and every other encounter with the ink demon is text telling u he's there and then a timer goes down and u get jumpscared] and batim's chases were either silly or just not nearly as theatric or terrifying as that.

When making the vent sequence I mean not only is it absolutely horrifying to realize how fast Huggy is in there but also it's so theatric and cool? The fact that you round a corner after thinking you escaped only to see a terrifying animation of that thing crawling toward you is awesome! I wish Bendy had stuff like that!

And all the stuff it shares with Bendy are generic things Bendy ripped from other horror games/media anyways. I'm not saying Poppy Playtime isn't inspired by Bendy I for sure think it is but Bendy is such a generic story that somehow fails to do tropes 100 other horror games have done any comparison only makes Poppy Playtime look better.

"It has employees being sacrificed for their company" That is not a concept Bendy invented, literally look at any of the sci-fi horror series Bendy is very inspired by. This is literally a twist in the original Alien.

"It has a scary woman forcing you to do tasks for her" Once again, not a concept Bendy invented, a scary mysterious person forcing you to do fetch-quests is a concept found in tons of horror media. And at least Poppy Playtime gave you a chase with her and let you defeat her, look at poor malice. She's barely on screen for more than 10 minutes before she gets stabbed.

"It has a cult worshipping the monster" This is something tons of horror games and media have done too. I mean In The Tall Grass has a guy who worships a giant magical rock in the middle of a grass maze, Bioshock [which Bendy has only been taking more and more direct inspiration from while failing to grab any of the compelling parts] also had a lot of themes of religion and cult-ish behavior, almost every horror media franchise has at one point done a cult thing.

Bendy couldn't even come up with a reason Sammy worships the ink demon, the best motivation we've ever gotten is just that 'he's crazzyyyy the ink made him insaneeee'. Who is the cheap rip-off here?

At least Poppy Playtime gave their cultist a motive for worshipping the monster + a proper boss fight that feels intense and looks awesome! Bendy didn't even let you kill Malice [she got stabbed in front of you and then just collapsed on the floor how thrilling] meanwhile you get to kill three of the villains in Poppy Playtime and the gameplay and action in those scenes have only gotten better as the game went on.

I mean Sammy walks into a room and goes "AAA SCARY I'M BEING MURDERED" then later shows up and for NO REASON sees a normal human man and assumes it's the ink demon before once again someone else kills him for you. In Poppy Playtime you defeat Catnap as he floods the world with this horrible nightmare-inducing gas that intensifies the color palette and his design. Fight off versions of him that are illusions that you need your flare gun for, then watch in a wonderful animation as he mistakes the monster for his savior before getting killed by it, in a brutal way I might add, which game are we accusing of being cheap, lazy garbage again?

I just find this argument to be people who Really Really need to find a reason to hate Poppy Playtime which I think is silly. The devs being weird, shady people is already enough reason to dislike the game, you don't need to invent reasons why secretly every part of the game is malicious or bad. But esp when I see Bendy fans saying they don't support Poppy Playtime or dislike it bc of its devs or even saying its cringe ummmm.

I have bad news about the fact Bendy's devs are worse and it took not one, but TWO over an hour long videos to cover it all. Plus the Bendy games are just the worse games in every aspect, if I could sell my batim copy for a copy of Poppy Playtime I wouldn't hesitate at all.

Saying this as a bendy fan, we have no right to be super judgy towards Poppy Playtime. If Poppy Playtime is embarrassing cringe, Bendy is too and is way more embarrassing of an interest. We shouldn't spread misinformation just because we all want to hate Poppy Playtime, you can dislike Poppy Playtime without making up a bunch of nonsense to justify it.

Honestly seeing people just blatantly be unfairly mean to Poppy Playtime only makes its critics look worse and makes it hard to take any backlash to the games seriously. Because surprise surprise if you spread misinformation to make a point people will quickly stop listening to Anything you have to say bc they won't trust you're telling the truth anymore.

#feel free to reblog but Im not gonna tag this its way too rambley at least for my taste to go in the main tags #ramblez #also man can I say I didnt want to make this post super long but theres so many other points I could make in poppys favor #the fact we got to see the hour of joy and it was terrifying we dont even know if joey actually killed anyone anymore #the gameplay itself is more diverse and fun then batim which is a walking simulator that pretends to have fighting n stealth mechanics #at least Poppy n Missys friendship gives u a reason to care for missys safety before shes put in danger #Missy can actually express unlike Boris who sits there looking cute with no proper expressions until he gets yoinked and ur supposed to car #bc he was uh adorable? And therefore you spend an entire chapter tryna get him and get an extremely bad boss fight in return-#also soundtrack wise I like poppys tracks more theyre unique and fun and you can tell which part of the game they come from #bendy has so many dramatic reveal stingers and tracks that are really hard to tell which part of the game they come from #bertrums boss fight has my favorite theme bc its so specifically crafted for him and unique and meanwhile Norman has one of the worst imo #a lot of Bendys soundtrack if I played it for you right now it would be hard to guess where its from bc it all kinda sounds the same #the reveal music for the machine for bendy land for heavenly toys for alices domain all sound the same x_x #its just so frustrating but yeah my point is can we all stop making up new reasons to shit on poppy playtime its just kinda dumb #it feels less like actual criticism and at this point just feels like elaborate justification for cringe culture which I hate #okay thats it bye sorry this is 10 pages long-

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