#the way almost all of these are from batgirl 2000

[yall-send-help]

cassandra “batman” cain

in order - catwoman (1993) #90, dc first: batgirl/joker #1, batgirl (2000) #58, batgirl (2000) #57, batgirl (2000) #55, batgirl (2000) #48, batgirl (2000) #48

[cluescorner]

There's no feeling stranger than knowing that something is bad but liking it anyways. Not in a 'it's so bad it's good' way. Because that implies that it has become good. I'm talking like this thing is just kinda bad in the normal ways things are bad, but i like it anyways.

[a-bad-case-of-the-stephs]

Let’s talk about the significance of how Stephanie Browns first ever appearance is tied directly to a TV broadcast about Batman, and how it perfectly explains why she's such a remarkable character.

Detective Comics #647

The full sentence the TV broadcaster says is “It’s not up to some masked vigilante to protect our citizens …. No matter how good his intentions…No matter how noble his cause”.

This scene asks us to compare the characters of Batman, who the statement is textually about, and Stephanie, who is viewing it and (presumably), being inspired by it. The panel itself seems to encourage use to try to apply these lines to Steph instead of Batman, framing the latter proclamation directly above her head, almost like a text box telling us this information about her. If we apply these lines to her, we can see an idea emerge.

There is this figure, who is not only not necessary, but unacceptable on the face of it, “…No matter how good [her] intentions...” / “…No matter how noble [her] cause…”

The first time we see Stephanie brown, she is being showcased alongside a condemnation, which is followed by her disregarding the message of this broadcast, and appearing for the very first time as Spoiler.

Dismissal and Stephanie ignoring this condemnation continues on to be one of the central facets of Stephanie’s character. In the same introduction arc we already see the dismissal/disregard dynamic established.

Batman and/or Robin tell her to Fuck Off, she chooses not to:

Detective #649

This pattern continues on for some time. She is dismissed by Batman

Robin #16, Robin #26, Robin #50 (1993)

And by Tim Drake/Robin:

Robin #25, Robin #35, and Robin #26 (1993)

And by her own mother:

Robin #71 (1993)

When she finally becomes an official part of the team in 2001, there is a break in this pattern. But, as always, Stephanie is eventually pushed out again:

Gotham Knights #37 (2000)

But, as always, Steph says “fuck that”, and refuses to stop.

Even in the face of dear friends agreeing she should give it up.

Batgirl #38 (2000)

And when Steph is brought in as Robin, she is again dismissed, in this case “Fired” soon after. She doesn’t quit of course, leading to the disastrous events of War Games.

Robin #128 (1993)

And when she comes back from being “dead” she is dismissed again, by Robin.

Robin #182 (1993)

This isn’t every time someone tells her to quit being Spoiler, but instead a showcase of how prevalent the Dismissal/Disregarding dynamic is for her character.

I am working on two other posts, one which will explain in depth Why the way she was “fired” as Spoiler has everything to do with Bruce Wayne’s own hangups and emotionally manipulative quirks and very little to do with her own skill level. The other will analyze why she feels the compulsion to be keep being Spoiler even after having Every reason to quit and being told to do so hundreds of times.

However, for the purposes of this post, all that matters is that this Dismissal/Disregarding dynamic exists and is a huge and reoccurring part of Stephanie’s character.

Whether or not you think she “deserved” how often she was rejected, and whether or not you think her disregarding the rejection was “good” or not doesn’t come into play here.

For now, let’s focus on the implications this dynamic has for her character in a meta sense, as a character who is used and discarded.

A character who is for all intents and purposes, the narrative punching bag. She endures character dismissal and belittling, three separate backstory instances of sexual harassment as a child and teenager, teenage pregnancy, abuse, taking care of a parent struggling with addiction, brutal and (debatably) sexualized torture, character assassination, death, retconned death, and further character assassination until 2009, where she finally gets her own solo comic, and a modicum of respect. The thing that separates the horrible shit Stephanie goes through and the bad things that happen to other characters is only rarely are Stephanie’s struggles treated as significant on their own, and almost always her narrative is used for drama or to prop up Robin Tim Drake’s plot. Very rarely does she get treated with the care and attention her character merits.

But let’s go back to that news broadcast, all the way back in Detective #647. How does she take it, when we are told, when Stephanie is told, first thing, straight out of the gate, plain and simple: No matter how good your intentions, no matter how noble your cause, you is not enough, or you’re too much, or your just not right?

It is met by a triumphantly tragic: “And?”

Stephanie hears from the VERY start the same refrain she will hear for years and years: she is not good enough, she needs to go home, she needs to quit and she does the exact thing she will continue to do every following time she is told this: she puts on the damn Spoiler outfit and she still tries anyway. Again and again.

The next time we see Stephanie Brown after this, the second time we ever see her character, she has donned the Spoiler costume, and she’s got to work. “And?” She seems to say. “As if!” She seems to shout. What a perfectly awe inspiring thing, and what a perfect summary of what makes Stephanie Brown so damn cool.

For better or worse, you cannot keep her down. I love Stephanie Brown so much.

And if you want to read a comic which understands this, which treats the terrific character of Stephanie Brown with respect and love, and which for the first time maybe ever lets her stubborn refusal to give up go her way? Read Batgirl (2009)!!

Batgirl #3 (2008) & Bruce Wayne: The Road Home - Batgirl (2010)

[celaenaeiln]

who do you think each bats' favourite sibling is canonically? i haven't seen much about this outside of super fanon stuff so i'm curious

Let's start with the easiest one!

Tim - Dick

Tim's favorite sibling but also favorite person ever is unquestionably, undoubtedly Dick. This boy adores his big brother. He's full-on obsessed with him.

His thoughts on Dick are just a compilation of praises about him and his inner dialogue simply consists of a series of hero worship.

Robin (1993) Issue #32

Red Robin Issue #23

Sometimes I ponder about Dick and Tim's relationship because I feel like what Tim wants from Dick isn't just a brother, I feel like he wants him to be a parent which is part of the reason why Tim and Damian don't get along.

Because the truth is, before Damian came along, Tim was Dick's robin first. And Tim loved it.

(This post was on hold for months because I needed that exact panel where Tim says to Dick "It's obvious he wants us to be the new batman and Robin." BuT i CaNt FiNd It. I literally give up, if anyone know what panel I'm referring to people reblog it with the panel and I'll upload it with the post)

Dick was Tim's Robin and everything he did he wanted to live up to him

Batman/Catwoman: The Gotham War: Scorched Earth

Look at what he says about Dick:

Batman: A Lonely Place of Dying

Even before Dick and Tim met again, Tim started working out just so he could be like his idol. Tim literally says to Dick "My grades are okay but I studied because I wanted to just like you."

You know what they say about idols and pedestals and never meeting your heroes? The opposite is true for Tim about Dick. After meeting Dick for the second time, his idol worship grew so much it shattered every ceiling in existence.

Tim loves him so so much. People sometimes misunderstand and think that Tim hated Dick when he fired him from Robin but it wasn't hate that Tim felt. It was jealousy. Jealousy over Dick choosing Damian over him.

Tim even solely used the Red Robin persona for the mere reason that he didn't want to dirty Dick's Robin by stigmatizing it with his less ethical actions.

Damian - Dick

Obviously. The only reason I said Tim was the easiest is because Tim's inner and outer thoughts about Dick can be complied to create volumes of fanbooks of flowing poetry about him. Damian on the other hand is more of a tsundere, but there's still only one person who he loves aside from his father and even more than.

Robin War Issue #1

If there were any doubts, I don't think this panel could be any clearer about who Damian's favorite is.

Stephanie - Cass

Batgirl (2000) Issue #38

Cass - Stephanie

Batgirls (2016) Issue #14

Damn.

Steph and Cass are each other's favorites

Detective Comics (1937) Issue #945

Duke - noone? everyone?

Like actually I can't pick out one person Duke likes the best. You're either on his wavelength or he's snarking you off it. He's the type of guy where everyone likes him and he's chilling by himself, doing whatever he wants.

Jason - Dick

Out of the batkids who did deal with Jason during his worst phase, Dick is unilaterally his favorite. Sometimes when I think about Jason's relationship with Bruce, I'm reminded of how much Jason and Bruce are alike sometimes because Jason's view on Dick is almost identical to Bruce's view on Dick and they even have similar reactions. We all know that Bruce hero-worships Dick. Time and time again, Bruce emphasizes, stresses, and talks about how amazing Dick is and how he's so much better than him, and constantly places Dick on a pedestal. The issue comes when Dick doesn't want to do what Bruce wants him to do because he believes that Dick is an extension of himself, his better half, and he's furious when Dick doesn't follow or accept what he's doing because Dick should know what Bruce is trying to do because he's supposed to be better than him, how dare he stop him, etc.

Jason acts in similar ways to Dick. There's a whole issue where Jason gets fear gassed and one of his biggest fears is Dick. More specifically, it's about how amazing Dick is and never living up to him because in Jason's eyes, Dick is absolutely perfect. There is no one better than him because he is the peak of everything. He places Dick on the highest pedestal there is and he kind of safeguards Dick there in his heart. He used to get really angry because he believes Dick is the best but also refuses to let Dick be anything other than the best. The best way I have to explain them is Jason holding Dick prisoner as a result of his hero worship.

Once Jason is slightly calmer, his relationship dynamics with everyone became really clear, as well as what he thinks of them and it's shown how the way he treats Dick is just different.

Task Force Z Issue #8

Grayson Issue #12

"You don't do that to your--you don't do that to another Robin!"

He was going to say brother 🥺🥺

In this scene, it's pretty obvious that Jason loves Dick a lot but he's obviously not going to be all fuzzy feelings about it because he likes to be edgy. Jason's a little confusing in general for people to understand because they expect him to be nice and open but Jason's not nice, he's just nicer to the people he likes. Once we start understanding that, he becomes clearer.

And to Dick -

Nightwing (2016) Issue #15

-He's exceptionally nicer.

DC's Ghouls Just Wanna Have Fun Issue #1

Another example of why Jason loves Dick the most is because in the comics, Jason doesn't work with anyone in the family unless he has to unless it's Dick because he chooses to work with Dick by choice.

Dick - Tim or Damian

Dick adores Tim so freaking much. He loves him so, so much.

Nightwing (1996) Issue #139

Catch me crying behind my sunglasses at Dick kissing Tim's head lovingly 😭

Robin (1993) Issue #12

I just love these soft touch moments Dick has with Tim. It's so incredibly sweet.

He was Tim's mentor

The New Titans (1988) Issue #65

and a really good one too.

He loves him-

Detective Comics (1937) Issue #696

-so much.

(I'd add more panels but I ran out of image space :'0)

I genuinely cannot say who he loves more at all. I can't even pick. I really do think he loves them evenly because when I think about leaning one side, more evidence comes to mind for the other side like a pair of counter weights.

Damian...I don't really need to say any words because the pictures speak for themselves

Batman (2016) Issue #34

Grayson Issue #12

aldskjdhkdjfhldfah;dh. Look at what he gave his son! A souvenir from the first time his dad met his mom because Dick knows how much Damian loves his parents <333!! There's nothing I can even say more.

Here's my previous post on Dick and Damian's relationship.

[galaxymagitech]

I was asked for context and comics panels for my previous post about that time Bruce got himself and Cass drugged on purpose so they could fight because “She had things she needed to get off her chest. I did too.”

It’s not…quite as bad as it sounds, but it’s definitely unhinged. And honestly, I think it's still pretty bad.

So, first: context. Bruce fires Cass from Batgirl and sends her off to a nice apartment alone. Cass feels that Bruce is pushing her away and challenges him to fight her in Batgirl (2000) #50. Bruce says he doesn’t want to fight her, but Cass insists that he’s lying. (The fact that he's lying will become important later.)

They fight a little, with Bruce mostly just keeping Cass away and defending himself as necessary. In the process, they are both exposed to a chemical agent called Soul, which is “the liquified essence of pain, bitterness, frustration, and rage.” Oh, and inhaling it turns you into a homicidal maniac.

Bruce tells Cass to stop fighting him because he doesn’t want to hurt her. The phrasing...doesn't sound good out of context: "Stop this now, Cass. Before I'm forced to hurt you." But he means it literally; Soul will make Bruce hurt her. Cass is like, “hah, like you could.”

So they fight. This time, it’s an all-out battle.

I tried to get some shots of Cass hitting Bruce, but couldn't find any good ones. Because of Batman’s gadgets he surprisingly seems to be winning this fight. And also there’s the fact that Cass isn’t really fighting to hurt Bruce, but actually trying to kiss him on the cheek (it’s complicated).

Dick tries to interfere (of course he does) and gets punched in the face by Cass for his trouble.

Batman ends up causing an explosion on a bridge and they almost drown, but Cass kisses him on the cheek the way she had to fight David Cain to do when she was younger, and the drug seems to have worn off when they surface.

Right. So, excluding the fact that Bruce seems to want Cass to be more loyal to him than Barbara (maybe that’s an uncharitable interpretation, but it certainly seems like it to me), it’s kind of sweet. They cuddle the way Cass’s father never let her and Cass says she’s loyal to the concept of the Bat. Sure, they fought pretty violently, but they were under the influence of a rage drug, right?

Well, they were, but...

So, I want to point out a few things here.

Bruce had the equipment to prevent this and expected the exposure, but chose not to protect himself and Cass from the drug.

Bruce states that fighting and violence is "the core of [Cass's] being...of her soul." Which is just...wrong, in my opinion. The core of her being is her empathy and compassion, not fighting. She was trained in violence since birth, and yet Bruce so easily judges her to be nothing more than that at her core. And I think that's kind of horrifying.

The fight wasn't just to help Cass express herself. Bruce explicitly states that he also had things to get off his chest. And apparently his method of getting things off his chest is...hitting fighting Cass while they're both under the influence of rage drugs.

Yeah. Anyway, it...does seem to have worked. Cass and Bruce resolved their issues with the fight. And Cass doesn't seem mad at Bruce. But it is admittedly an extremely questionable mentoring technique.

(Later on, Bruce uses violence towards his mentee again as a form of "communication" when he hits Tim on a rooftop in Batman (2016) #71. I don't know that these two incidents are really comparable from a "is Bruce a bad parent" perspective, but they do create a through-line of Bruce using violence as communication. I doubt the writers of Batman #71 were purposefully calling back to a post-crisis Batgirl comic, but it still wasn't a new idea at the time.)

(Batman (2016) #81)

Yeah. Bruce and Cass have plenty of sweet moments, but some of the stuff in Batgirl (2000) is pretty messed up.

[casscainmainly]

Race and Perception in Batgirl (2000)

This is a companion piece to my two gender posts on Batgirl (2000). There are many interesting takes on race and Cassandra Cain, but most focus on whether she is a 'racist' character or not. This post is not about that, though I think my stance is fairly clear given what my blog is about. Rather than retreading the same ground of whether the conception of Cass is racist (something I might tackle later, because some arguments are flat-out wrong), I want to look at how race actually plays out in Batgirl (2000).

This post focuses on how Cass' Asian identity influences her views on perception, beauty, and agency. As usual, feel free to disagree as I'm not an ethnic or Asian studies expert.

Mask of the Batgirl

We all know and love Cass' iconic Batgirl costume. Besides its distinctive total-blackness, the most interesting aspect is the full-face mask. She is the only Batgirl to cover her face completely - when Stephanie takes over, one of the first things she does is rip the bottom half off.

Skin and external perceptions don't mean the same things to Barbara and Steph as they do to Cass. Cass' entire life is fraught with not just the male gaze, but the White male gaze - her father, David Cain, films her on video tapes, and Bruce later views these tapes (importantly, Cass herself does not get to). These tapes symbolise how her appearance does not belong to herself, but to external White perceptions.

In issue #1, Batman says the following:

"You... are me." Here, Bruce posits that the full-face mask makes Cass more like Bruce. It functions to hide their racial and gendered differences. By covering her face completely, Bruce (and Cass) tacitly suppress her race. Once again, White men are controlling the way she is perceived, something that began with David Cain and continues with Bruce.

Interiority and Exteriority

A common Asian stereotype is that Asians are mechanical - they have no interiority. The common conceptions of Asians as STEM majors and being emotion-deficient all come from this core belief, that Asians are utilities for White people. For Cass, this belief manifests from Babs, Bruce, and David Cain:

Babs says it's hard to care without knowing what's "going on in her head." She cannot connect with Cass' exterior, and finds it hard to imagine what her interior is like. Even worse, Bruce and Cain both argue that Cass belongs to/is like them, almost treating her as property- they reject Cass' own interiority and project theirs onto her, using her as a tool to extend their own identities.

In the early issues, Cass doesn't have an internal monologue. This somewhat reinforces what Babs, Bruce, and Cain all believe about her interiority. However, in issue #5 a White man gifts her the ability to think in language:

This plot point serves to demonstrate Cass' interiority to the reader, but it is another example of a White person choosing for Cass. She didn't get a choice to be raised without language, and she doesn't make the decision to receive it. Both externally and internally, White people control her narrative.

The Shiva Solution

After her newfound language skills impact her ability to fight, Cass encounters Lady Shiva, her future surprise mother. Shiva is the first one to ever acknowledge Cass' race.

Unlike Cain or Bruce, Shiva doesn't say 'you're like me'; she says, "we're a lot alike." She doesn't map herself onto Cass, but finds something they both have in common. By naming Cass' race ("in terms of our coloring") and framing their similarities in this way, Shiva affirms Cass' difference from White people, while providing an alternative solace: Asian solidarity.

Shiva gives Cass her first real choice. It's not exactly a good choice, and it's somewhat coloured by White perceptions (the idea of 'perfection'), but it's still the first major thing Cass gets to decide for herself. She even frames Shiva's path as opposing "Batman's method;" it's the beginning of her path away from White control, towards racialised agency.

It's no surprise, then, that Shiva is the one that helps Cass over her death wish. Not Bruce, not Babs, but Shiva - a literal and metaphorical link to her heritage.

Another Stephanie Brown Segment

As an integral part of Cass' sexual and gendered awakening, Stephanie of course plays a role in Cass' understanding of race. Moving from Puckett's run into issue #38, Stephanie and Cass have this iconic conversation on the rooftop:

I've written before about how this marks the beginning of Cass' foray into gender and sexuality, but this scene has a different meaning when viewed from a race angle. Stephanie is the quintessential American girl, with blonde hair and blue eyes; additionally, she's sexually and romantically experienced. Cass' own Asian appearance, then, may be causally linked to her lack of experience.

When Stephanie comes back as Robin, we have this moment:

Cass is unable to be perceived as non-threatening, helpful, or friendly, while Steph achieves all this with ease. Beyond the differences in temperament (Cass is definitely the spooky scary type), it's also the difference in costuming - Robin's bright colours and majority-unmasked face make for a friendlier appearance than Batgirl. Once again, Cass is unable to control other people's perceptions of her.

It's notable that the majority of Steph's appearances throughout Batgirl end with her leaving Cass on a rooftop. This happens in issues #38, #53, #54, and of course War Games. Their relationship is consistently tenuous, and I think this contributes to Cass feeling like she'll never belong in Steph's world.

Tai'Darshan Turns the Tide

At this point Cass is in pretty bad straits: no one has ever shown romantic attraction to her, Steph is mad at her, and she still doesn't have a full understanding of her race (bar Shiva, she's encountered no other Asians). This feeling of disenfranchisement from both the White and Asian worlds is a very common experience among third culture Asian kids, particularly mixed-race Asians.

Then comes Tai'Darshan, the second major Asian person Cass interacts with.

He is the first person to show romantic interest in her, and asks to "see [her] face." He wants to see her interiority and her skin - Cass' Asian features are now described as something attractive, something worth seeing.

Where Cass is creeped out by Conner's gaze on the boat, she's not similarly affected by Tai'Darshan. She's beginning to understand racialised dynamics, and finding comfort within other Asians rather than her majority-White friends and family.

Both during the fight with Tai'Darshan and the later fight with Bruce, Cass wears these eye-cut-out masks. The eyes are both the site of perception and the site of Asian racialisation, as the most identifiably 'Asian' part of people's faces. By wearing these kind of masks, she's allowing others to perceive her race, reclaiming racialised perception as an act of choice rather than something imposed onto her.

Choosing

In the final arc of Batgirl (2000), Cass sets out to find Shiva. The decision is spurred by this conversation, where Brenda explicitly asks about Cass' race. Everything has been building up to this acknowledgment of Cass' fuzzy origins, a recognition that the uncertainty around her race impacts her ability to achieve full self-actualisation.

Cass rejects Batman's help on the matter, instead going to Onyx:

By going with Onyx, a Black woman, instead of Bruce, Cass is starting on her journey towards racial solidarity beyond Asian communities.

The abrupt ending to Batgirl (2000) kinda cuts off any definitive arc, but I actually think what we have already paints a solid picture. There definitely is a lot more room for explorations into Chinese culture (Spirit World kinda covers this), Cass' relationship to White proximity, interactions with other Asian characters and more. I think her Asian identity deserves more of a spotlight, and I'm hoping more comics in the future delve into it.

[littlemissonewhoisall]

I think a lot of people who haven't read Batgirl (2000) and only know Cass from her appearances in other characters' books or online summaries miss something very essential about the root of why she's such a good fighter.

Yes, Cassandra was trained in martial arts from birth, learning from some of the deadliest assassins and mercenaries in the world. But that was not the core of what David Cain was doing with her, nor is it the real root of what makes her so dangerous. People who were raised from childhood by assassins to be dangerous fighters are not particularly uncommon in the DCU. Even in the Bat Family alone, Damian, Jean-Paul, and Helena were all trained to be assassins from childhood. The reason why Cass is still presented as a much better fighter than them isn't inconsistency though, it's because their training lacked something very important.

Cass wasn't an apprentice or an heir to David, nor was she a weapon to accomplish his agenda. She was first and foremost a science experiment. David didn't have a kid and decide "now I'm going to make you into a killer like me". He had a child specifically for the purpose of having a blank slate of a person that he could use to test his theories about the role of human body language in combat.

Yes, she was trained to fight. Yes, he planned on having her go on assassination missions. But these were ways to prove his concept, not an end unto themselves. David was convinced that if someone's entire development was influenced by communicating solely through body language that their brain would develop so that they were more adept at combat than any normal person could actually learn, regardless of their level of training, and he was right*!

Cass has mastered a bunch of combat styles, at least offensively, but she's also able to pick up new styles almost instantly, and react defensively against skilled opponents without needing any technical knowledge of defensive styles. She can coordinate and react far more efficiently than is humanly possible for anyone else, because her brain just works differently due to the unusual circumstances of her development. THAT'S what makes her an unparalleled* fighter, not her level of training.

*Shiva being an aberration which should not be counted

[zahri-melitor]

Hi! I’m a steph fan and your steph post really is good. IDK what post/person you’re talking about (I assume it’s going around, because I’m seeing the tumblr posts about it) but I love steph, and I think her sense of retributive justice and almost like instinctual violence towards men makes complete sense with her character. Even if I don’t think every writer was doing it intentionally (BQM certainly wasn’t thinking about Steph’s history with men when he had Steph get startled and punch Tim accidentally or whatever), these traits I think speak to feelings a lot of abused and wronged teenage girls have. I think it’s genuinely bizarre to want to remove these traits that IMO make Steph interesting in order to make her more palatable.

While I can actually understand people wanting her to grapple with restorative vs. retributive justice (again, i think this is a really common thing for young abused people to question and struggle with so seeing it on-page could be interesting), I think there’s more and more this sense of because Dixon wrote her this way, you should throw it all out which is so catastrophically boring to me. As much as Dixon is a conservative, and wrote Steph as a bit of a mouthpiece (and leaning on stereotypes about young girls in her characterization), plenty of it i think makes complete sense and genuinely works for her character.

Which, again isn’t to say I think every single aspect should be immutable forever (I think that would also be boring, especially for Steph who very rarely has gotten to be seriously introspective or have a fully realized arc in which her beliefs change past like 2000), but plenty of them straight up work for her teenage years in particular. Like of course the girl with no friends we meet on-page and no real support system when shes introduced is going to be possessive and desperate and catty! She started coming on to Tim after he REMEMBERED HER VIGILANTE NAME. That’s what it takes for teenage steph to like a boy, which I think speaks a ton for her dynamics with her male peers in her life. Like the minute you think even a second about what Steph’s life was probably like pre-Spoiler, I think most of her character flaws as a teenager (even those born of a conservative era or sexist writing) make complete sense.

I understand people not liking Steph (although I think she gets a lot less leeway than her male counterparts), but I think buffing out her canonical traits and flaws so she’s just like this freakish exaggerated version of herself (a perky, hyper-feminine stereotypical blonde thats super chaotic and doesnt think and does everything unintentionally) that only exists as a character foil to Tim or Cass or as a like cookie cutter snarky young female sidekick is way worse.

The thing about Steph in particular compared to a lot of other characters is that she has two very distinct, separate versions of her story that exist in an overlapping form (rather than before and after a Crisis like a lot of other characters who have a similar discontinuity in their characterisation).

The main character Steph you get reading Batgirl 2009 and Batgirls 2022 is a quite different personality to supporting character Steph that forms her appearances from 1992-2004, Batman RIP, Tynion's 'Tec, and Mariko Tamaki's 'Tec and One Bad Day.

Now personally, what I enjoy in a character is complexity and personality traits that are simultaneously assets and flaws (This is part of the reason I adore Barbara Gordon: she's a stubborn, grudge-holding hypocrite, and it gives her character so much depth). Another thing that you particularly see with female characters is they often develop a lot of complexity via stories that don't quite line up but when analysed turn into patterns of behaviour that various writers didn't even realise they were contributing to.

Supporting character Steph tends to be allowed to be messy (to help move stories along!) and that's where a lot of her most interesting personality traits pop up. As you say, there's a lot of solid background to why she hates to see criminals 'get away with it' based in her background and childhood and storylines. There's reasons for why she seems such a loner who has trouble forming friendships and who clings to the people who do put up with her for validation, and is so territorial over her relationships with Tim and Cass. She's desperate for approval and will cling to any shred of it she gets. And that desperation and determination is where her stubborn commitment to get back up again and ignore everyone trying to convince her to stop comes from, and how she keeps fighting, to prove her naysayers wrong.

While I tend to feel the Batgirl 2009 and Batgirls 2022 version of Steph is really flattened out into Generic Perky Blonde Optimist, because she's not allowed to face consequences of her actions or be at fault for anything in those titles.

It also obviously makes discussions difficult, with the overlapping contradictory characterisation versions, because if you're talking to someone who's only read a small chunk of her canon, you have to work out which bits they know, and with the added problem that what looks like obvious entry points (her solo or Batgirls) tend towards more uncharacteristic and flattened personality versions of her. Someone who's only read, say, Batgirls, has a very different view of who Steph is than someone who's only read Steph's Robin appearances, and if they try to discuss it without realising the significant differences in characterisation they're going to end up talking at crosspurposes.

[canonmisogynyvictimstournament]

PRELIMINARY ROUND - DC COMICS

PROPAGANDA

Cassandra Cain

1.) essentially her character premise is that shes more or less an unbeatable martial artist due to the way she was raised. in the comics, she's the second batgirl and had a very popular solo series from 2000-2006. However, essentially DC editorial really didn't like that a teenage chinese girl was a better hand-to-hand fighter than batman, and so mandated that she be turned into a extremely random (also remarkably racist, as she was more or less turned in a 'dragon lady' stereotype) villain, which completely derailed and destabilized her character enough for her to almost entirely disappear from comics for the next decade. this is a far more detailed write up if wanted: https://www.reddit.com/r/HobbyDrama/comments/pdue0e/american_comicsdc_comics_the_saga_of_cassandra/

2.) Following the events of One Year Later, Cass was turned into a homicidal villain who led her own league of assassins and wanted to force Tim Drake into murdering people. This was later retconned as her being drugged, brainwashed, and manipulated by deathstroke.

3.) Literally canonically a better fighter than Batman and probably most of the DC universe. Killed one person once and because of the way she grew up (never taught to speak, learned to communicate by reading body language, in order to make her the ultimate weapon), saw what he experienced as he died and then refused to ever kill again. Had an awesome initial run… And then got hit with "evil mind control" that made her go completely OOC, depopularizing her character so much that a lot of people don't even know she exists.

Barbara Gordon

1.) Was shot as angst value for Bruce and her dad, implied to be sexually assaulted in The Killing Joke with absolutely no respect for her long career as Batgirl. When Alan Moore asked if he could, the editor said "cripple the bitch." She became paralyzed from the waist down. THankfully, an actually good writer picked her up from there and then wrote one of the best stories ever written (Oracle Year One: Born from Hope). Was one of the most iconic disabled characters in comic book history, hell, as Oracle, she was definitely up there as one of the most iconic disabled characters ever as well as a fantastic character, period. There were a few moments where people kept trying to make things out of her disability and had her be shitty to other women for no reason but for the most part, she was awesome. During her time In 2011, Dan Didio and some other misogynistic/ableist comic book writers were responsible for "curing" her disability and forcing her back into Batgirl, despite her having shown absolutely no desire to do so, as part of the New 52. They also made it an editorial mandate that she couldn't have glasses, a cool secret base, and her time as Oracle couldn't be referenced. This was because those writers were nostalgic for the 60s Batman show where Babs was played by an actress they all had the hots for and couldn't accept she'd grown up and moved on. That was bad enough, but over time, she's been increasingly deaged and reduced even further to just Dick Grayson's on and off again girlfriend and a generic girlboss. Batgirl of Burnsides burn in hell.

2.) Famously fridged in 1988, which was so popular with misogynists it became canon. After almost 2 decades of being one of the only disabled characters, was rebooted to a younger, more fun version of herself whose only history is that she was fridged but not disabled by it.

3.) The Killing Joke is one of the biggest comic examples of a female character getting hurt to motivate male characters. Also tbe way different cannons will trade off who her romantic intrest is out of Batfamily is pretty disturbing ranging from Bruce Wayne in Batman the Animated series universe (ew) to Tim Drake in the Arkham games (ew). Not to mention DC now is not letting her grow out of being Batgirl taking away her legacy of other young female heroes taking up her mantle and her getting to mentor them instead forcing her into a Batgirl cycle of purgatory when she was always better as Oracle (Its a little more complicated in the new Batgirl book but its still not solving the issues in a way that feels meaningful enough to make up the damage).

[gamesception]

Sception Reads Cass Cain #42

Batgirl (2000) #21 - December 2001 Writer: Kelley Puckett……….Pencils: Damion Scott Inks: Robert Campanella…..Colors: Gregory Wright

My short break turned into a 6 month hiatus, but the first issue of the new Cass Batgirl run releasing tomorrow (at time of writing this) has finally given me the push to start this project up again. While this isn't the most consequential issue to come back to, it is a good one, and it has Stephanie in it, and references og Cass's initial dynamic with Shiva, which is topical since the new book will at least start with a focus on modern Cass's relationship with her mother.

Most of the usual team here this time, only we have a different Wright on the colors than usual. Which did give me a brief moment of panic that I'd been attributing colors to the wrong person, but no, most of the previous issues specifically credit Jason Wright, but this one specifically credits Gregory.

The issue opens with Cass preparing for a training routine, and I have to point out that the evolution of Damion Scott's art style that I brought up in a reply to a post that was going around recently (link) regarding inconsistency in Cass's appearance was already well underway by issue 21 of her ongoing.

The training sequence itself is pretty extreme as Cassandra demolishes dozens of dummies and a few (potentially load bearing?) stone columns in her cave...

Before nearly taking Spoiler's head off and making herself sick with the effort of stopping her own punch and/or the realization of what almost just happened. It's a cool-then-funny sequence which also reinforces how Cassandra is capable of absolutely destroying people, but that she very much doesn't want to actually hurt anyone, traits that will of course be key to events later in the issue because Kelley Puckett is just good like that.

Anyway, Steph is here because Babs sent her to get Cass and bring her to the Clock Tower, since Cass wasn't responding to calls while engrossed in her hours-long training regimen.

*I wish I didn't have to, Mirthful Mike.

But yeah, this issue is a sort of tie in to Joker: Last Laugh, a miniseries / crossover event from 2001 that frankly I didn't much care for. Unfortunately we'll have to look at an issue from the main miniseries run next time, but for the moment Bab's summary is all that needs to be relevant for the current issue.

The more interesting thing going on in the same panel is the little exchange between Babs and Cass about whether Cass has been studying her super villain files. With Cass answering 'no' in a kind of embarrassed way, which Barbara reads as Cass being embarrassed about not doing her homework, something Babs obviously things Cass ~should~ be doing but that she's kind of given up on Cass ever caring enough ~to~ do, with Cass just not caring about the part of the job that she's not good at / the part of the job that Barbara does. It's a whole thing., and a point of tension that at this point in the comic is slowly building and then later will be forgotten about and unmentioned for a huge run of issues and then even later than that will explode out of nowhere. Again with my recurring comment about this book being fantastic on the build up of character arcs and not as great on the follow through.

BUT ANYWAY, Babs is completely misreading this situation, because Cass isn't embarrassed because she think she's been caught not doing something she should, she's visibly embarrassed (love the art from Scott here, again with managing a very expressive Cass despite being in the full face covering mask) because she thinks she's been caught doing something she shouldn't.

One of the first rules Bruce gave her was 'no costumed criminals'. She's not supposed to be fighting supervillains or metahumans or any other weirdos with special abilities or gimmicks that might invalidate her body-reading ability, which we've already established is her primary and near only defensive skill. At least, that's the in universe justification for why this book mostly avoids big scenery chewing bad guys who would otherwise distract from the intended tone and core themes.

Now, Bruce would have intended that as "don't fight them, but absolutely study them so you know what you're dealing with if you have do", but Cass is very much the sort of kid who would have heard that as 'supervillains are entirely off limits, I don't want you to fight them, or look at them, or even think about them', like the whole subject is a taboo - one she'll absolutely break, but that she'll feel guilty about breaking and try to hide from authority figures, because that's how she deals with guilt in general, lying (poorly) about it, trying to hide it. Because she doesn't think she deserves to be Batgirl, so she's completely insecure about it and sure she's going to be fired the moment anyone sees through her.

And that's especially the case given the reason she's been so carefully studying the particular supervillains she has - super powered martial artists. The same reason she's been training so hard that she's destroying her cave, missing calls from Barbara, and nearly killing unexpected guests who wander into her sessions, but that's a subject the comic comes back to later.

This habit / character flaw / broken coping mechanism of lying to hide guilt (misplaced or otherwise) is just so compelling to me. The way the lies taint every relationship, distancing the character from anyone they should be able to rely on, the way the they inevitably build up as the character feels guilty about the lies themselves and makes up more lies to hide that, like a matryoshka doll, or a tower of cards waiting to fall, the way that by the time other characters start pulling on the strings thinking they know what's going on there's a usually a cascade of revelations each more shocking than the last. Alphys in Undertale is a prime example of this.

The disaster when everything falls apart is usually the best part of this dynamic, and sadly Batgirl (2000) will choose to subvert that part (again, fantastic set up, but never quite following through), but we aren't there yet.

Anyway, it's just a couple short lines of dialog across as many panels sharing space with a blunt info-dump, but it's a really good character beat speaking to both Cass's flaws - the whole lying and hiding anything she feels guilty about - and Barbara's - assuming she already knows what's going on and not digging any further or following up (which only enables Cass's lying and hiding) because the reason she assumes makes her annoyed and angry (which Cass of course picks up on, reinforcing her feelings of guilt and insecurity).

It's a complicated and unhealthy dynamic between two people that otherwise genuinely love each other, and the tension and angst that comes from that is also fantastic.

The original Cass Cain Batgirl run was full of this drama that comes from making these variously maladjusted characters care about each other and exploring the fraught relationship dynamics that result. That more than anything else is what made Batgirl (2000) great and that post-flashpoint Cass has been lacking (the parts I've read anyway, still need to get around to that Outsiders run). Even my constant complaints about the flanderization of latter day David Cain basically boil down to this, because original Cass's relationship with Cain was overflowing with this sort of tension.

Anyway, that's a ton of talk about two panels, lets see if I can rush through the rest of the issue a bit more quickly...

...

So Babs gives a reason why Cass and Steph aren't wanted in this otherwise all-hands-on-deck emergency situation, a reason that's a little bit dumb, but way less dumb than the reason we'll get next time, and Cass says she's fine with it, which takes Babs by surprise. You can see the fight she was ready to have about it, you can see how confused she is when Cass just says OK, because again Scott is just so good at these facial expressions. Babs, or at least this version of her, is susceptible to making inaccurate assumptions about people, about Cass in particular, but she's a smart enough cookie to notice when Cass acts outside of those assumptions and start questioning whether something else is going on.

So Cass goes to train in Bab's star trek holodeck (I admit that thing was a bit too sci fi for a gotham book for my tastes), and refuses to let Steph sit in, which calls back the scene earlier to reinforce it in the readers memory before what happens later.

The power goes out, and Cass comes out sheepishly, this miserable look on her face (again! So good!), because she thinks she broke the holo room, and there's no way to hide & lie her way around that, but the problem isn't Cass...

It's this guy, Shadow Thief (jokerized), a villain I know nothing about and have never seen or read outside of this comic. He's got some weird tech that, I think, drains electricity from nearby devices to make himself (but not his weapons) intangible?

Scott draws him in an extra exaggerated, cartoony, and rubbery style, which works here to emphasize his weird powers and/or jokerization, but does kind of foreshadow how all of his comic art starts to look more like that over time - which again isn't bad (as you can see in the panel here it actually looks pretty cool), but I still prefer the earlier style.

Anyway, Shadow Thief also a notable supervillain martial artist, so Cass actually has been studying his files, and knows exactly how to deal with him -

Catching the throwing stars he throws at them with her fingers (look at her smile! She's loving this!)

Throwing out some cocky banter to play on his ego

Grabbing his very tangible sword to draw him to the roof so Babs and Steph aren't caught in their fight.

All great stuff.

And yeah, Barbara has absolutely picked up that somethings going on with Cass. Eventually it will be revealed that she just already knows about the fight with Shiva, and I don't think we ever see how she found out, but this is pretty clearly where she started to suspect something and it's not too much of a stretch to jump from that initial suspicion to just knowing everything, at least not with this character.

Even without his sword, Shadow Thief has special martial arts techniques that somehow let him sort of hit things despite his Shadow Field making him intangible....

And now Cass does, too.

One of the usual principles of early Batgirl (2000) - no supervillains - serves to keep the focus tight on the more emotional themes of the book. Cass is so far out of the league of any of the typical criminals she runs up against that fights are always over in a flash, keeping action scenes short and punchy and leaving more space in the book for other things. But it is nice, every once in a while, to make an exception for a more drawn out and elaborate fight scene like this, where Cass can really show her skills.

But the real drama of this issue happens when Babs finds a way to remotely deactivate Shadow Thief's intangibility field mid battle. That 'oh, shit' face is so good.

All Cass's joy gone in an instant. She was having so much fun. She was so happy to have a real opponent she could cut loose on instead of inanimate dummies or holograms. Someone good enough to keep up with her, and with a defensive ability effective enough that she could put her full skills to use without having to worry about actually hurting them. Yeah, Shadow Thief's a villain, but they were playing with each other, trading banter. Having fun. Despite Shadow Thief's murderous intent, this was almost more of a friendly sparring match than a real fight.

But once again she gets a stark reminder of what her skills were originally meant for, what she was originally meant for. Earlier in the issue Cass was throwing up at the thought that she even could have hurt Stephanie, and now she probably killed this guy. And there won't be any hiding this - forget what might happen if Bruce finds out about the guy she murdered as a child, he 100% is going to find out about this man that she murdered, on the roof of Barbara's safe house, while wearing his symbol. Her entire life is falling apart, here.

But Stephanie is here. And helps Cass save him. Helps her save herself.

And of course Cass wants to hide what happened from Barbara. And of course Stephanie, being a good friend, keeps her secret, even if it probably would have been better to talk to Barbara about what happened and what Cass is feeling about it. Then again, if Babs knew it might have gotten back around to Bruce, and that ~wouldn't~ have been a healing conversation.

And the issue ends with a Flashback to Cass agreeing to fight Shiva, a real fight, to the death, using all of their killing skills. An bargain struck many issues back, so this is the reminder to readers that the fight is coming up soon, only a few issues away now. The final page is this panel of Cass back in her cave, with Shiva's file open, a video recording of her fighting on loop, as Cass sits with her face in shadow. She isn't going to fight to kill Shiva. She can't. So Shiva is absolutely going to kill her.

So yeah, a strong issue to come back to, catching us up on the overal serial plot of the book at the time, but also strongly grounded in original Cass's core emotional themes and the intricate dynamics of some of her core relationships, including now to Stephanie, with this being a huge early moment of vulnerability from Cass and support from Steph pushing them from like work friends who pal around some times to real friends who rely on each other.

And despite making exceptions to include a super villain and extended fight scene and callback to an ongoing serial narrative arc, this issue still mostly adheres to the core early Batgirl (2000) playbook.

It tells a complete story in a single issue; tightly focused on Cass's core character themes, motivations, and frought, layered relationships; expressed mostly through the artwork with relatively minimal reliance on dialog and even less on narration, with an overall sombre or even tragic tone punctuated with moments of levity or heartfelt human connection.

I'm writing this before having a chance to read the first issue of Cass's new ongoing, but more than anything else, more than reverting her canon to the pre-flashpoint history (which I don't even want, post-flashpoint Cass is a new character and I'm sure she has fans who care about her as much as I cared about original Cass), even more than restoring the original version of David Cain, what I hope for most from the new book is a return to this kind of storytelling.

[incorrect-green-lantern-quotes]

"You shall have to do."

Practicing my art and I figured I'd make a companion piece for my GL!Cass AU

I've been reading through her Batgirl run from the 2000s and honestly it's hilarious how far removed that version of Cass is from the sweet princess that fanon makes her out to be. Girl is a straight up menace who listens to absolutely no one and thinks she can do anything. Perfect GL material

There's several fics and fanart of Batfamily characters as Green Lanterns, but it's almost always one of the Robins or Batman himself. None of them have Cass wielding the ring. Which I think is a real shame because she's my favorite Bat and there's so much story potential in her being a different kind of hero!

Like imagine Cass meeting aliens with radically different physiologies from humans and having to learn to rely on new powers against enemies whose body language is impossible for her to read. And how does the universal translator in the power ring compensate for a wielder who was raised with no concept of spoken language? How can she charge her ring if she cannot say the oath?

Green Lanterns come in all shapes and sizes. There's the living planet, a creature from a species that evolved without light, a literal mathematical equation- Cass fits right in even though she can't comprehend language because she believes in the most important ideals of the Corps.

Imagine Cass watching other Green Lanterns, the ones whose body language she can read. When Rot Lop Fan presses his ring to his battery, when Kilowog recites the Corps' creed, she sees the fearlessness in their postures, the courage that is the source of all their power. And though the words of the oath are beyond her, the meaning of it is something that Cass understands perfectly, completely.

This then is how she charges her ring. No words are needed, only thoughts, for the mind is the prism by which a Green Lantern's light is shaped, and that focus goes both ways. Unwavering determination, absolute vigilance, the will to protect life and see justice done- Cass lets the emotion fill her heart, her soul, and the green energy surges in response.

She is the silent lantern, keeper of the unspoken oath. Truly the One Who is All

[ectonurites]

Are Tim and Cass Cain actually close in canon? Or is that more of a fanon thing that gained canon status?

Alright, so the tldr answer is that yes pre-reboot they were close—but it wasn't something that happened immediately/right off the bat, it took time, and they didn't always perfectly see eye-to-eye. But like, it's not just some totally fanon thing, they were absolutely close.

I'm using past-tense in the above though because it's like... all the actual content with them becoming/being close is pre-reboot. Anything post-reboot with them either had them back at square one (during N52 stuff) or like, just sort of handwavey 'oh they're close again' without much actual elaboration/explanation. Theoretically nowadays everything's canon again so all the old stuff applies, but as far as I'm aware nothing has really dug all that deep back into the two of them/their dynamic.

Now, to give a brief crash course on Tim & Cass's relationship in canon...

Early on they weren’t all that close because Tim was absolutely intimidated by her & her background and like, in general seemed to just find her kinda off-putting:

(Robin (1993) #73)

However Tim eventually gets over himself & after working side-by-side with her a little bit realizes he shouldn't let being intimidated by her stop them from being friends and working together:

(Batgirl (2000) #18)

After this point they work together on several occasions, definitely communicating much better than in their initial appearances together and clearly getting along well. They're a fun lil duo:

(Superman/Batman Vol. 1 #5, Superboy Vol. 4 #85)

Then… after a while, War Games happens. Gotham goes to shit, Steph dies (well, we nowadays know she didn't really, but they sure were both grieving) and so they both independently move to Blüdhaven, which leads us to the Robin/Batgirl: Fresh Blood crossover. Which has some fun little moments with them:

(Batgirl (2000) #58)

As well as some on the more tense side, as they both navigate mourning Steph and the clashes in their ideologies/approaches to hero work—the fact that Cass wants to be & be like Batman, and the fact that Tim absolutely does not:

(Batgirl (2000) #59)

After the crossover they mostly do their own thing staying out of each other's ways in Blüdhaven—though they do get another little story together in this timeframe in Batman Allies: Secret Files & Origins that sort of rehashes the above conflict during some training together & a team-up.

And we DO also get the cute (and oft-mentioned by the fandom) moment where Tim mentions she frequently breaks into his house to shower & steal rice krispies (just for clarity sake, while fandom almost exclusively calls her 'Cass' largely to avoid confusion with Cassandra 'Cassie' Sandsmark, within the comics themselves both Cassandras get called 'Cass' and 'Cassie' at various points—considering Cass is the one who lives in the same city as Tim at this point in canon, that's definitely who he's talking about here)

(Robin (1993) #138)

So like, at this point they are absolutely comfortable with one another and pretty close, but just, they don't see eye-to-eye on everything so it's not some flawless friendship (and I say friendship specifically because at this point we're still a few years out from them actually becoming siblings). But it's absolutely an interesting dynamic!

Then… after Infinite Crisis we get to the One Year Later/OYL era which is... bad for Cass. Terrible horrible character assassination we all refer to as the 'Evil Cass arc' which began in Tim's book. I don't wanna pull panels from it because it's just... it's bad!!!!!!!!!!!! There's a reason it got retconned into Cass having been brainwashed—because it was bad.

I guess the only thing worth bringing up here in relation to Tim & Cass's relationship though (because as mentioned, Cass gets retconned into it having been brainwashing so anything from her in this era is irrelevant/moot) is the fact that Tim was obviously very upset about the whole situation because Cass is someone he cares about and he even says he considers family.

To fast forward through that mess, when we get to the end of it and the 'oh it was brainwashing haha!' retcon, Tim was the one to have on hand a counter-serum that could free her from Deathstroke's control:

(Teen Titans Vol. 3 #44)

Once Cass is no longer forced to be evil and ooc, she gets a little mini at the end of which Bruce formally offers to adopt her (and Tim, who had earlier been adopted by Bruce, is present for this—so from this point on they go from a more general 'we're like family' to actually 'we are adopted siblings').

Buuuut then Final Crisis & Battle for the Cowl both occur and Cass gets extremely pushed aside by DC, giving up the Batgirl mantle to Steph and heading off to Hong Kong.

At which point we find out that Tim & Cass have actually kept in contact (just... off-panel) during this time when she's been out of Gotham and he's been off doing all sorts of stuff:

(Red Robin #17)

When they see each other in person again, Tim urges her to be a Bat again. Maybe not Batgirl if that's not what she wants, but to wear the symbol and be part of the family. (Which she does take him up on, keeping the suit he brought her and becoming Black Bat).

She pops up again at the end of Red Robin to save Tim & also help him pull off a fake assassination attempt on himself—ya know standard stuff.

And then right before the reboot we get to see them working alongside Damian and Dick in Gates of Gotham, and see one final time that yeah—these two have kept in touch after everything, and are definitely far more on one another's wavelength nowadays than they were back in the 'fresh out of War Games' era:

(Batman: Gates of Gotham #2, #5)

So like, does fanon over exaggerate them and their relationship? Aaaaabsolutely—that’s what fanon does. But they did definitely become close after everything they went through and had a fun dynamic together!

Sadly though, as I mentioned at the start of the post, the n52 wiped everything back to a clean slate. And while nowadays post-Infinite Frontier everyone’s histories have been restored their dynamic has never really been the same again.

[blackbatcass]

how would you rank bat-children from bruce's least favorite to favorite? also i'd say do the same for ollie's kids but he would kill himself if you made him do that (mia still his fav though)

oh my god you guys do want me dead💀

I'll be honest, i don't think there's much value to be found in 'rank-the-favorites' discussions. like the honest answer is 'it depends' and i just don't think it's productive. I do think that in most cases wrt relationships with bruce, dick is always going to come out on top. as i've said those two are just on a whole other level. they Know Each Other in a way that no one else will even come close to. I don't think it's controversial to posit that actually raising dick from childhood adds a layer to the relationship bruce has with him that really can't be replicated with anyone else. like...jason was with him for 2-3ish years as a tweenager, cass and tim were adopted in their mid teens. meanwhile bruce was effectively dick's parent from age 8 onwards.

I also think the timing is something that would be almost impossible to replicate. dick entered the picture very early into bruce's years as batman. bruce was the one solid thing in dick's life after his parents died. they were literally each other's crutches through all that emotional turmoil and became, for better or for worse, extremely codependent. all that to say, dick and bruce's relationship is just so crazy insane that pretty much nothing compares. he just has the advantage. you can't recreate the mind bogglingly deep connection 25 yo bruce had with 8yo dick grayson it just can't be done.

on the other hand, cass also has something with bruce that can't be replicated by anyone else: she is Exactly Fucking Like Him. she is his carbon copy. they Get each other's rock-solid convictions & moral code sooo deeply. fandom tends to use this as evidence to point towards cass being the favorite child, but like as greta mysterycitrus has eloquently said in the past, she is exactly like him (derogatory). bruce obviously loves cass deeply, that is his daughter, but I don't think having that relationship with her is always easy for him. her existence points out some uncomfortable truths about himself that he doesn't always want to confront. I mean... if you were to meet yourself as a seventeen year old it would probably be weird as FUCK lol. I especially think the fact that cass has killed someone really fucks with his head and forces him to reevaluate his own morals/worldview.

and like...I don't think he always treats cass fairly. we see it over and over again in bg 2000. he thinks he knows what's best for her because he sees himself in her, but the things he thinks are best for himself are Not Healthy to say the least. he intentionally keeps himself at a distance because he initially did not want that close, father-daughter relationship with her: it was strictly batman and batgirl. and he thought that's what she wanted/needed. but being so singlemindedly driven to a cause with no boundaries or normal life is not exactly the best way to go for a teenager. so I think those two had a lot to figure out when the dust settled.

I have much fewer thoughts about jason, tim and damian simply because they are not my blorbos like dick and cass are lmfao. i do think tim deserves a whole lot of credit for stepping in to save bruce and helping when bruce was at his lowest. like. that was obviously NOT easy lol. bruce and tim are interesting because bruce held himself back from being a father to tim for so long, when jack was still in the picture. but when it comes to a head and tim gets adopted, it's just...natural? like there was nothing else that could have happened there? I am honest to god not the biggest tim fan and have not read enough of his comics to talk intelligently on him any more than that lol. but I do know bruce loves him very very much and would be lost without him<3

jason....jason. I mean what is there to say lmfao. if your dead teenager turned up and started mass murdering what would you do. I think it's pretty obvious to say that losing jason was soul-crushing for bruce and permanently changed him as a person; we see those aftereffects in his relationships to people like tim, steph, and cass. jason will never stop being his son, and bruce will never stop loving him. but things will never be the same again. I don't think jason's actions post-resurrection will ever be justifiable or forgivable to bruce. like even if jason woke up one day like 'suddenly i'm cured of being a villain' I don't think he would be welcomed back with open arms or anything. jason is a murderer. he has killed like a fuckton of people in cold blood. that is something that will never be okay with bruce. grappling with loving your son versus your son being a murderer which is antithetical to everything you have spent decades building...that's rough buddy. is that controversial? idk i spend as little time as possible thinking about jason todd

I think it hurts bruce to look at damian sometimes because he just can't stop seeing talia. I think he loves damian deeply but it isn't always easy. that whole timing of final crisis was just so messy that they didn't get off to a super smooth start and had to do a lot of work rebuilding that relationship. I think damian has to reconcile his childhood hero worship of bruce with the actual very flawed man which isn't easy. it has been a LONG ass time since i've read damian's comics so that's about all I got.

IN CONCLUSION! This is very long and I absolutely did not answer your question sorry. but these are kind of my cliffnotes thoughts on each of the wayne kids' relationships with bruce.

and yeah if you tried to get ollie to rank his kids he would knock himself out with a boxing glove arrow

[aingeal98]

Having Bruce and Cass and the Robins thoughts and they're a bit messy and jumbled so bear with me.

Idk how to explain why the Bruce and Cass messed up but loving dynamic is so much more appealing to me than his toxic relationship with his other kids but I guess it's because the entirety of Batgirl 2000 understands that Bruce is not a perfect parent. His flaws and virtues are both deliberately and carefully written and his relationship with Cass is so layered and it makes it so that I can both laugh and cringe, appreciate the sweet moments and rage at some of his more shitty moves. It's not perfect but overall the writing is just GOOD, and there's enough material to form a solid core of understanding even when their dynamic grows past Cass's solo run. This is Cass and Bruce and this is how they tick and no writer has been able to thoroughly screw that up no matter how hard some of them were pushed to by editorial.

Compare that to how he's written with his other kids, where every writer has their own version and some have him be a perfect dad and others have him be shitty and frame it as "He's got this darkness in him" while another group of writers have him absolutely brutalise his kids or neglect them or gaslight them for angst all while knowing the kids will never receive any sort of narrative justice for this because he's Batman and he's the big flagship hero. There is no single run you can point to and say yes this here showcases the heart of the dynamic between him and Tim or him and Damian, no single run so good that all other comics about their dynamic use it as their basis for this bond between father and child. There is no consistency and no communication or understanding between writers or even an attempt to pick up what the other puts down. Batman comics will have him be a good parent or a bad parent but either way it will be all about Him. Batfamily comics tend to have him just be absolutely awful and then a few months later they have to pretend it never happened because the main bat books want to make him a good parent again.

It's all shock value that rarely lasts past the arc and writer. When Tom Taylor has Dick hug Bruce and call him dad I'm remembering that time Bruce beat him into a bloody pulp or backhanded him across the face and Dick never got to call him out on it. But we're not meant to be thinking about that in Taylor's run because this is a Good Dad Bruce comic. Taylor's Bruce and Dick dynamic is completely different to the New 52 dynamic the same way that dynamic is different to Wolfman's which is different to the original Batman and Robin. And that variety can be a great thing when it comes to comics but the downside here is that you can pick Bruce's "good dad" comics or you can pick his abusive asshole comics but you cannot find the middle ground that Batgirl 2000 hit because (controversial opinion I guess) it doesn't exist for the batboys and no writer has successfully managed to pull all the different comics together and create one.

Fans have tried. Fans have pieced together a decent narrative from the mess of inconsistencies, taking the moments of almost cartoonish abuse and the moments where Bruce is shown to care, and forming the image of a complicated and nuanced abusive parent from it all. But the great thing about Batgirl 2000 is you don't have to do all that effort of trying to make the happy fluffy hero batman and the edgy punches his sons Batman fit into one character. The writing does it and does it in a more realistic fashion too, which is saying something considering the big Bruce and Cass emotional fight is solved by Bruce letting them both get drugged and fight bloodlusted. I do think there are moments when it hypes Bruce's bad parenting up a tiny bit but compared to the absolute mess that is the writing of say, Bruce and Jason? It's just so much easier to actually engage with. Being on the same page as a narrative instead of chafing against it is just a much better way for me to read comics.

That's not to say there isn't any kind of narrative and canon dynamic for Bruce and the Robins. Tim's Robin run, Dick's various runs, UTRH, Batman and Robin etc. Just that for me none of them hit that balance Cass and Bruce's dynamic succeeded in hitting during Batgirl 2000. And to be fair it's harder to hit that balance when you're working with characters who have been through the hands of so many different authors before landing on your doorstop. UTRH probably comes closest but unfortunately everything that came after that did manage to shake the emotional foundation utrh set up to the point you can look back on it and wonder if Bruce cared about Jason much at all, despite the writer clearly not wanting it to be seen that way.

Not sure how much sense this makes but to me it's the difference between a bad parent Bruce I am actually interested in engaging with and a bad parent Bruce where I just want the kids to team up and knock his teeth out.

[celaenaeiln]

Hi it’s me again, the anon who asked about the Joker hating Dick. Back with two more things, sorry. First is Dick being the hardest bat for Cass to read, is that canon or fanon? Another is Dick, Cass, and Bruce being the only bats (heroes?) able to beat Jason in a fight, where is that from?

Sorry for the lengthy ask and I hope you’re having a wonderful day 💕

Hey again (＾▽＾)!! Not at all and thanks <3

Dick is just a hard person in general to read for anyone.

Titans (2016) Issue #11

And this is coming from a mind reader and empath.

But in terms of Cass, I think it may be because he's the only one whom she can't tell what he's thinking without him saying something. For example with Tim,

Batgirl (2000) Issue #59

Even though they're just sitting there silently, Cass can identify every emotion that Tim's emoting without him saying a word. However with Dick, she only learns about him by watching his interactions with other people.

Nightwing (1996) Issue #81

She can still read his fighting movements but she doesn't have the same level of emotional understanding of him through body language that she has on everyone else. I guess it comes with him being a born performer. It's like her trying to read Alfred given that Alfred and Dick both understand and bond with each other over their acting abilities.

Another thing about Dick and Cass is that Dick is able to read Cass as easily as Cass is able to read other people.

In fighting, just like she can easily see his form

Batman and Robin Eternal Issue #1

Dick can see hers too

Batman and Robin Eternal Issue #1

He's able to identify her weakness and analyze her fighting technique just like she's able to do his. Although Cass wins because she's always quicker on the draw than everyone. It comes with her almost meta-like ability to identify weak points in someone's body language.

So that's canon for emotional understanding I think but unless I have the direct canon panel I can't say for sure.

Dick, Cass, and Bruce being the only ones of the bats to defeat Jason is canon.

Dick beat Jason even after being electrocuted, tranquilized, hit with fear toxin, and blown up in the Battle for the Cowl

Batman: Battle for the Cowl Issue #3

Yet even after all this he still wins. He accidentally uses too much strength though and knocks Jason off the ledge

Batman: Battle for the Cowl Issue #3

Dick is always controlling his power. He's careful in the way he fights and goes easy on everyone especially if they're his friends of allies (evidenced in Vigilante comic), but when he loses that carefully maintained control, he always wins. There are other instances where Dick wins too but to give one that evens the playing field (where neither holds back), Battle for the Cowl is the best example.

This idea of holding back ties into Bruce too. Bruce doesn't restrain himself nearly half as much as Dick does but he does it too. When he doesn't hold back against Jason, he wins

Batman: Under the Red Hood Issue #13

Cass beats everyone, there's no question but here's the evidence anyway:

Batman and Robin Eternal Issue #3

Even as he's saying this, Cass has already identified all of Jason's weak points

Batman and Robin Eternal Issue #3

People sometimes use the following scene to say Jason can beat Cass but c'mon. It says right there he caught her by surprise and she wasn't seriously fighting.

Batman and Robin Eternal Issue #3

But Jason can beat Tim, Duke, and Damian canonically.

Here he beats Tim when Tim decides to dress up as Batman.

Batman: Battle for the Cowl Issue #2

It's kind of a one-sided fight. He also beats Tim when Tim is Robin but it's a little unfair to use that given than Jason is a trained adult and Tim is sort of just starting out. Also to be fair to Tim, Jason catches him by surprise and hiding but overall I'd say Jason still wins.

He also beats Damian in a fight rather easily

Teen Titans (2016) Annual #1

He also beats him in Batman and Robin and in Batman (2016)

Batman and Robin (2009) Issue #5

Although Damian has beaten Jason a few time in a no holds barred fight. I guess it just depends on how much they feel like fighting and who's writing. I can't tell with these two but I believe Jason would win eventually.

He can beat Duke too

New Talent Showcase 2017

He does it so easily.

I can't remember him fighting Stephanie so I'll leave her out. In terms of fighting ability in the batfam, I'd say Jason's solidly in the middle. Still a strong fighter though.

[galaxymagitech]

Stolen Soul

For @casscainweek Day 5 - Death | Rebirth

Summary: Cass doesn't feel like herself. She had pleaded for someone to fix her. But now that she’s been fixed, she wishes she had stayed broken. Missing scene from Batgirl (2000), following the telepath rewiring Cass's brain.

Characters: Cassandra Cain, Barbara Gordon

Warnings: Internalized ableism

You can read it here or on AO3! This one's pretty short for me—697 words.

Disclaimer: This is only one look at how I think Cass would view herself and her changing identity in response to a telepath rewiring her brain. It's not meant to represent the experiences of all people with disabilities.

Cass doesn’t feel like herself. Her mind is overflowing with words. She feels like a—like a—like a stuffed turkey. Like someone opened her up and took out all her insides—everything that made her her—and replaced it with whatever they thought was tastiest. Cass knows what a stuffed turkey is. Two weeks ago, she didn’t know those words. Just the image of a dead thing, filled with food, caught in her mind as she peered through a bright-lit window somewhere in New York.

Cass’s mind is not her own. Her eyes are not, either. When she looks at others, they are blank, now. All of Barbara’s Barbara—soul, her mind tells her, but Cass rejects the word—is gone from view. Now it’s just a voice, and words that buzz in her ears, too loud, too grating, too much!

When Cass learned that people communicated with their mouths, she had wanted to understand. Wanted to talk and have others hear. Wanted the boundary between her and the world to shatter.

She had pleaded for someone to fix her. But now that she’s been fixed, she wishes she had stayed broken.

Cass wishes she could go back to before that man dug into her brain and rearranged it. She can’t fight like she used to anymore. Batman says it will take a year, maybe more, to fight well enough to protect Gotham. Even then, Cass will be forever mediocre. She will never regain what she once was. Worse, it feels like a piece of her has been severed. Meanwhile, the words take up space in her head, whining constantly. Cass’s mind is not her own.

Jeffers thought he was helping. Cass tries to remember that. But he stole something from her, that day.

“Does it…ever…get better?” Cass asks Barbara. Her head is bowed. She does not want to see Barbara’s blank body. It is like looking at shadows.

Barbara wheels her chair closer. “What do you mean?”

Cass crouches down. Her hand hovers over the wheel, but she does not touch. Barbara does not like people touching her wheelchair. “Having something—stolen.”

Barbara’s face twists. “I don’t think that’s the same, Cassandra.”

“But—”

“You’re doing so well,” Barbara says. “Who cares if you can’t fight? You don’t have to. You can live a normal life now.” Jealous, Cass thinks. Barbara is jealous. She wishes she had Barbara’s body to confirm it. Right now, her guesses are just guesses. Cass is floating, untethered from reality, lacking the grounding of her gaze.

“He…killed…me,” Cass chokes out, still crouching. Almost kneeling. She is not lying. 

Barbara’s face softens. “Cass…”

“Killed me,” Cass repeats. She does not think like she used to. Her very self has been twisted into a new form. An easier one. Maybe a better one, but—Cass can’t help people like this, so maybe a worse one too. Better in some ways, worse in others, but absolutely different. Not herself anymore.

“I can’t be Batgirl again,” Barbara says gently. “But I’m Oracle now. I can’t afford to dwell on the past.” Different. Not better. Not worse. But still—

Cass taps her own chest. “Gone.”

Barbara reaches out and lifts Cass’s hand away. Her fingers are soft and all the scars are old. “I’m sorry,” Barbara says.

Cass turns away, slipping off to her room. Even if her mind is changed, her body still knows how to move silently.

She finds herself tearing clothing out of her drawers and tossing it onto her bed, like if she finds enough relics of the past her future will return. But it’s not enough. It will never be enough.

Even if she fully regains her ability to read body language, the old Cass will still be dead. Nothing can change the fact that her brain underwent a psychic lobotomy. All that she can do now is move forward.

She is not the same girl she was before. But she is still Cassandra Cain.

And, she realizes as she stares at the black clothing she has assembled in front of her, there is no version of Cassandra Cain that will stand by when others need help.