#stephanie brown meta

[a-bad-case-of-the-stephs]

Stephanie Browns time as Robin serves as a direct foil to multiple aspects of Tim Drake’s introduction as Robin and what that accomplishes narratively:

1. Alfred vs Bruce Reactions

When Tim first arrives, Alfred is right there trying to convince an extremely reluctant Bruce to allow Tim to become Robin.

Batman #442

In contrast with Steph, where Alfred is giving his best effort trying to convince a resolved Bruce not to allow Steph to become Robin

Robin #126

Tim and Stephs introductions as Robin have Bruce and Alfred directly switch roles in their relation to Robin: the reluctant becomes the advocate, and the advocate becomes the reluctant.

2. Breaking Explicit Orders to Save Batman

Let’s look at the story which ends with Tim donning his own Robin costume for the first time and being referred to as “Robin” for the first time by Bruce, the story where Tim officially becomes Robin.

Tim is told not to go into the field or put on the Robin costume, but Tim chooses to fight the Scarecrow himself and enter a situation he was told explicitly to stay out of by Batman to save Bruce’s life (and also Vicki Vale’s).

Batman #456 & #457

Bruce tells him sometimes rules are meant to be broken, and immediately afterwards, he is recognized as Robin.

Stephanie’s firing as Robin occurs when she is told explicitly to stay out of a fight, but which she still enters, as she believes Batman was in danger.

Robin #128

Tim’s entrance into being Robin is tied directly to his disregarding orders to save Batman.

In contrast, Stephanie’s exit as Robin occurs once she disregards orders and attempts to save Batman.

3. Secret Identity Knowledge

Tim enters the manor already knowing everyone’s secret identities. He knows “The Secret” from literally before day one.

Batman #441

In stark contrast, not only does Stephanie enter her time as Robin without knowing Batman’s real identity, she leaves her time as Robin none the wiser as to Bruce’s secret.

Despite working as a sanctioned member of the team for a substantial amount of time beforehand as Spoiler, she doesn’t know Batman’s identity when she is Robin and she still doesn’t know when she “dies” in war games.

Tim represents a totality of knowledge in his introduction, he knows everyone’s identity and relationships far before he becomes Robin.

And Stephanie represents a total lack of that same knowledge: she enters and exits the Robin role with no knowledge of “The Secret”.

The entirety of Stephs time as Robin is overshadowed by the unavoidable fact that the normally intensely trust based partnership that is the Batman and Robin dynamic is being subverted and used as a blunt tool. A tool to leverage Tim back into the role of Robin.

Is it any wonder then that Stephs time as Robin foils Tims introduction as Robin?

The contrast serves as a way to explain to the reader why Stephanie cannot be Robin: Steph is the “bad” Robin who portrays an opposite to the “good” Tim Drake Robin introduction. She is in opposition to the “norm”.

Stephanie serves as a reversal, a perversion of how Tim Drake became Robin, allowing Tim to return to the role.

The core tenets of the Tim Drake Robin Introduction Myth must be reversed, deconstructed and undone, so that there is room and opportunity for Tim Drake to rebecome Robin afterwards. So that he can reestablish himself and the norms that Stephanie’s time as Robin has upset and undone.

[fantastic-nonsense]

Hello! Do you know why Tim or Dick are not part of the “Dead Robins Club” which I understand is Jason, Stephanie, and Damian? Jason is obvious, but Stephanie’s death was retconned from what I checked. Damian shouldn’t count either since he was always meant to come back by DC writers. If it’s based on who was thought of as “dead” in universe wouldn’t Tim have been included since everyone mourned him too? The criteria for it sounds picky lmao so I would like to know why it is only those 3.

Short answer: Tim doesn't count regardless because he never died (his death was faked by Mr. Oz/Jor-El) and fans knew that the second it happened. Thus, he doesn't get a claim on the 'Dead Robins Club,' which in fandom terms only applies to characters who have actually died and been intended to be percieved that way by the narrative at some point.

Dick is the boundary walker because he didn't actually properly die; he flatlined and then was immediately resuscitated within about a minute in-universe and half an issue IRL. I don't personally consider him a member because he did not suffer medical death in-universe and was always meant to survive IRL. So for me Dick's fakeout near-death in Forever Evil doesn't count any more than Tim's fakeout near-death in Contagion does. If it's not a real death that is intended to be percieved by readers as a permanent state, I don't count it.

Meanwhile, Jason's, Steph's, and Damian's deaths were all intended to be both genuine and permanent and were written as such. Their deaths were shown on panel, and had both impact and fallout attached to them. Even if Steph's death was eventually retconned to say that she never died, we saw her die on panel and she was treated as legitimately dead by the narrative for four years (up to and including Tim and Cass seeing/interacting with her ghost on multiple occasions). That's why they're the three that count for the purposes of the fandom's Dead Robins Club.

For a longer answer, I once went over Dick's "death/non-death" controversy here; I also discussed Steph and Cass's deaths in that response.

[eggplantwaffles]

comics are messy and all characters who appear even semi-frequently are often subject to inconsistent characterization, writers who don’t understand them, retcons and drastic changes in personality over time, and in Steph’s case- some writers that straight up hated her

one day i will write an essay on my interpretation of Steph, because despite all this, i think she is an incredibly complicated and compelling character that is often misunderstood by characters in universe as well as in real life

it would genuinely only take one good writer who cared about the character to retell her story without even having to change any actual events to make her story one of the most compelling character arcs within the Batman side of DC- the pieces are all there…

tangent over, back to the fun poll- if you picked the last one please at least read the wiki if not a comic

[therealtsk]

What is the Brown family pre-Flashpoint characterization vs post-?

hoo boy. So, disclaimers, while I've read a LOT of comics, I have not in fact read all of the ones where a member of the Brown Family appears (mostly because I just don't have the heart to put myself through Batman and Robin Eternal, along with some of Dixon's notoriously sexist writing in his Robin run), but I think I've read enough to make a decently informative post on this. Let's go by characters.

Stephanie Brown.

Probably the one that most people noticed, Stephanie Brown in her pre-Flashpoint characterization is one that has (right up until a certain...event...) a lot of grit to her. While she's still the victim of Dixon's notorious attitudes towards women, she's still allowed to be competent, holding her own in a fight quite handily, especially in her own Batgirl run, where she's able to take on League of Assassin members without too much trouble at all.

Her major, I would argue defining characteristic, is that she does not give up. Ever. Her dad tells her to quit. Tim Drake tells her to quit. Fucking Batman tells her to quit. Multiple times!

Stephanie Brown does not give up. Ever. When the going gets tough, she shrugs, puts on her eggplant outfit, and kicks ass.

Post-Flashpoint? Stephanie is constantly made out to be unreliable, unable to handle herself, constantly needing other people to pull her out of trouble. She loses fights she simply wouldn't have before (although to be entirely fair, this is a problem literally every batfam member has from N52 onward but that's another post) But worse than that, post-Flashpoint Stephanie gives up. 

This scene is genuinely insulting- it's definitive proof that DC's writers from N52 onwards have never understood Stephanie Brown, and never plan to (yes, I know she does come back later, but the fact this happened at all is the point.) This is utterly antithetical to Stephanie Brown as a character, and spits in the face of everything she stands for.

Crystal Brown This is actually the main reason I decided to start writing sins of the father (working on chapter two in conjunction with this), because the treatment of Crystal Brown in Post-Flashpoint DC comics is just insulting- and a major disservice to Steph! Her relationship with her mom is essential to her arc. Crystal Brown starts out as a woman who's got a supervillain as a husband. She's struggling with him, with near-poverty, and with a drug addiction that seriously impedes her ability to be a good mom.

But like daughter, she doesn't give up. In fact, Crystal Brown kicks Arthur Brown out of her life and picks herself up, manages to quit her habits, and becomes a well-respected nurse at Gotham City West Mercy Hospital. Her defining characteristic is that she loves her daughter, even if it took some time for her to get her act together.

Post-Flashpoint Crystal Brown is not that. Hell, she's barely a character. When Steph calls her, desperate, afraid of her newly-learned-of criminal father, Crystal’s response is to lie to her daughter, and then call her husband and tell him Stephanie knows about his plan. 

Sure, she doesn't want him to kill her, but this is so wildly out of character for Crystal that this is basically an entirely different person. And it leaves Stephanie without a single parent who cares about her, since Bruce sure has hell hasn't stepped up in Rebirth. Steph doesn't have any positive role models in her life in Rebirth, leaving her bereft of really any consistent form of love and encouragement outside of maybe Cass, but even that relationship is a hollow shell of what it was previously. 

Arthur Brown. 

So Arthur’s the one who’s arguably changed the least, because abusive asshole is hard to get wrong, but he does feel like he’s lost all consistency in Rebirth. Before, he's a smug, arrogant asshole who doesn't give a damn about his family beyond how he can use them.

In Batman Eternal he’s…well, fine, but in Batgirls he’s…nearly unrecognizable, even from his characterization in the previous issues. 

Like seriously, what was going on here? Arthur's never given a single damn about Steph aside from literally using her as part of a plan to get rich. But anyway. TLDR; All three lost nuance, Steph used to be more competent and had an actual character arc, Crystal used to have an actual character and was an inspiring story of overcoming addiction, and Arthur used to feel like a consistent villain instead of a one-off whack job.

[goodoldfashionedengineer]

Tim: So, and for what reason was I 17 years old for the last 15 years?

Damian: That's what you're complaining about? They couldn't even bother to give me a proper characterization until much later on. And then it is one that does not align with my upbringing!

Stephanie: At least you weren't killed just because of misogyny

Dick: Yeah, I wonder how anyone let that through. But then again, I shouldn't expect anything else from writers who made me stuck as Ric for two years and all the, you know, Tarantula stuff

Jason: It's honestly like they just spin a wheel every day to figure out if I'm a villain, hero or anti-hero

Duke: Forget about the writers, the fans also have some... wild assumptions

Stephanie: Yeah, like that you're the normal one!

Cass: Or that I'm mute. Just there to give emotional support

Barbara: Or that the most traumatic thing to ever happen to me is framed as something good just because I became Oracle. I barely had one page of dialogue in that entire story!

Tim: At least they get one thing right.

Dick: And that is?

Tim: Bruce.

Jason: Yeah, what is up with that?! It feels like I've become his punching bag! Why is he considered a hero again when he is just plain abusive at this point?

Duke: Patriarchy

Barbara: And male power fantasy

[theerurishipper]

The thing I'm wondering about is why it's Batman who always gets the blame for what is more or less standard fare across the DCU. "Batman indoctrinates children into his war, the Robins are child soldiers!" But where is this energy for Wally West or Roy Harper or anyone else? Why doesn't anyone call Barry or Clark or Ollie out for indoctrinating children? And in the same vein, Batman gets consistently torn apart for not killing the Joker, when I don't really see any other hero get this? No one is writing hit pieces on Superman for not killing Luthor, but somehow saying Batman is a coward and in the wrong for not wanting to compromise on his principles is a significantly popular opinion? Like, there are legitimate reasons to criticize Bruce as a character (his controlling nature, his tendency to be cold and distant and push people away, etc.), but why is it always the wrong arguments (that have already been explained and explored in depth in canon) that always get the most traction? And why is it always Batman?

[tarragonthedragon]

i actually think that after she's had time to catch up on some social development Cass is probably one of the better bats at passing for normal. she and Dick and maybe Steph have the best sense of performing "just some guy". Bruce, Babs, and Duke all overstep the mark and successfully pass as "not normal but not in a batman way more a this dude weird as fuck way" whereas Tim, Damian, and Jason are all under the mistaken impression that they can just be a version of themselves that is not a vigilante and come off as genuinely unhinged

[soleminisanction]

One of the most frustrating things about the common "Tim only thinks murder is wrong because of Batman" misconception is... No, that's Steph. That's literally Steph.

If Tim Drake never met Batman, Tim would still believe that killing people is wrong. It's a foundational part of his morality, he literally came to Bruce hoping to stop him from reaching that point of no return (or the one where he works himself into an early grave).

If Stephanie Brown never met Batman, she'd have killed a bitch by now. Probably her father.

[daydreamerwonderkid]

Me, after doing 15 minutes of excessive googling on every Batfam member's birthday only to then realize I've accidentally missed the majority of them this year, and then also finding out that people are still aggressively debating over whether Bruce's birthday is April 7 or February 19, Dick's birthday happens 3-6x throughout the year, and Stephanie might have just popped into existence for all that DC cares:

Batfam birthday dates btw for anyone who needs them are listed beneath the cut:

DISCLAIMER: DC is notorious for being super inconsistent with everything and I am a mere tadpole caught in the tidal wave of DC's ocean. This post will be regularly updated with edits and corrections so please do not use it as word of law, I am begging you.

Update (8/24/23): To keep things more simple and easier for everyone I am going to start categorizing the birth dates I've collected into 3 categories.

-Most popular: Self-explanatory. These are the birth dates that have been canonized and confirmed by DC and are also more wildly celebrated by the fandom. Typically, this should be the first result you see when you google the character's birthday. But not always because DC sucks ass.

-Other date(s): These are the additional birth dates I come across that have been canonized in some form with multiple sources, but are not as wildly celebrated or popularized by DC and/or the fandom. Why am I including them here? Mostly because I don't want people coming in saying I forgot a date. But also because if I have to see this mess, then y'all have too as well.

-Potential but unconfirmed date(s): This is where I will put all the other additional dates I find, but specifically those that are lacking in complete sources or seem to be highly debated and scrutinized.

Also fun emoji ranking guide for me and me alone:

👑👑: Queen Shit. Characters with a consistent and simple birth date(s). Can absolutely do no wrong.

👑😮‍💨: In the Running. Characters who don't have a set birth date, but the mess is minor and completely DC's fault. They shouldn't have to be punished for DC's crimes.

🤡🤡: Gtfo. Shit is so inconsistent and stupidly messy that it's making me lose my shit. I'm putting DC and the characters on trial for this bullshit.

👑Alfred Pennyworth👑

Most popular: August 16

Other date(s): April 8 and March 31

(I think it'd be hella cute if Jason and Alfred shared a bday. But if you keep scrolling through the rest of the list, you'll see that August is kind of an overcrowded bday month for the Batfam.

Depending on what you prefer, though, I still think Alfred's worth being celebrated. Lord knows he deserves a special day for himself)

(Update ((8/24/23)): No big inconsistencies between these dates. I just thought it would be fun to provide some info on why Alfred has two canonical birthdates.

So the reason August 16 is viewed as the most popular is for two main reasons. One, obviously, is that he shares a birth date with Jason Todd. So many fans latch onto this date because of how sweet it is for them to share a birthday together.

The second reason has to do with the origin of the birth date. This is because of the more recent retcon that was made by the prequel comic to the Injustice: Gods Among Us video game that was published in 2013. There is a panel in the comic that shows Alfred's birth certificate in full detail from his full name, his place of birth, etc.

As for April 8, this specific date technically has more history compared to August 16. Fans will cite that April 8 was the official date selected by DC according to their Super DC Calendar back in 1976 (which btw was made in 1975).

Compared to August 16 and April 8, however, March 31 oddly enough isn't that popular or recognized by DC or the majority of the fandom. The reason March 31 does come up is because March 31, 1943 was the date when Alfred made his first appearance in the comics, one day after Bruce/Batman)

🤡Bruce Wayne🤡: Hey. Hey, DC, look at me. Bitch.

Most popular: February 19 or April 7

Other date(s): April 25, May 27, March 30, "October," October 7, and "November"

(It looks like most people go with February 19, but don't come at me if you're a April 7 truther. I'm just existing)

(Update ((8/20/23)): I'm gonna shoot somebody. So after doing a little bit more research, I came across-you'd never guess it-even more conflicting info on when Bruce's birthday is supposed to take place.

While April 7 and February 19 are still popular days for fans to celebrate Batman's bday, March 30 is also considered a popular date due to March 30, 1939 being the day Detective Comics #27 ((the issue Batman debuted in)) was put on shelves.

HOWEVER, even Batman's debut is contested to actually be May 27, 1939 because despite the fact that Detective Comics #27 first appeared to the public on March 30, 1939, the cover issue depicted May 27, 1939 instead.

This is because it was a popular practice for comics publication houses to falsify their cover dates as a way to give the impression that the latest issue was newer than it actually was. So if you really, really wanna get super fucking technical about it ((and I know there are some of you out there who do)), Batman may have debuted on March 30, but the cover-issue date was May 27 so, yes, I guess Bruce could have been a May baby instead.

I hate it here.

Oh, and to make matters more complicated, let's discuss the issue of April 7 vs April 25. So the reason April 7 is a popular bday for Bruce is because the original 1930-40s run just outright stated that April 7 was his birthday. Simple enough.

So what does April 25 have to do with this? Well, that's because technically-I think I hate that word now btw-Batman didn't get his own solo comic until April 25, 1940. If you want to go by April 25 because of this logic, however, that means that you'd have to share Bruce's birthday with the Joker. Because guess what? That's also the exact date that the Joker debuted.

I'm personally not a huge fan of Bruce and the Joker sharing a bday. Mostly just because the dates are clearly already complicated enough. But also I feel like April 25 is just known as the Joker's bday at this point, at least in the DC fandom. And Bruce has so many options at this point that it'd be kinda silly to make them share a bday.

As for the "sometime in October" and "sometime in November" additions, we have Batman The Animated Series and Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" to thank for those extremely vague options.

BTAS Bruce states that his birthday is "sometime in October" and "Batman: Year One" Bruce is responsible for "sometime in November." I repeat: I hate it here.

So when is Bruce's actual birthday? Well, the latest change that DC has "officially" made was the February 19 retcon during the 1970-80s. When a fan sent a question into Detective Comics about Bruce's birthday, the answer given was "February 19" in the letter column. Issue #494, to be exact.

And the reason this answer was given? Because the Super DC Calender for 1976 (again made in 1975) said so.

However, there are still people who prefer to celebrate his bday on April 7 or March 30 instead. And there's also a question floating around if the New 52 run could potentially retcon Bruce's bday AGAIN at some point in the future.

I. Hate. It. Here.

Personally, I liked February 19 because then Alfred could maybe have the month of April to himself. But after seeing all this new info, I'm just sort of resigned to whichever date that the fandom prefers. Y'all can decide. I don't have any energy left.

Also, I can't believe I have to accuse Bruce of having possibly taught Dick his bday scam. Just .... wow).

(Update ((8/24/23)): Well, DC did it to me again. I found this extra little tidbit while googling the Super DC Calendar for Alfred, actually.

So Issue #10 of the 2021 Legends of the Dark Knight decided to give the BTAS's "sometime in October" an actual sometime.

How do I feel about yet another Bruce Wayne bday retcon? Honestly, I think I'm moving closer and closer to just a bland state of acceptance at this point. Tbh, I don't think all these retcons actually matter that much in the end. DC is gonna keep being DC.

Which is annoying. But Idk I'm personally gonna stick with February 19. No shade to you if you prefer any of the other dates. I just like February 19 more than the others)

👑Kate Kane👑

Most popular: March 21

Other date(s): January 26

(So ... where to start to with this one?

Well the official DC canon birth date for Kate Kane is listed as March 21. That being said, if you were to google Kate's birthday right now, you might be confused because that's not the first result that comes up.

Instead, you'll be greeted with January 26, 1990.

So what gives? If there's already an official DC approved birth date, then why the fuck is January 26 coming up all of a sudden?

Well, folks, you have the CW's Batwoman to thank.

Tbh I was very confused as to how I completely missed that there was an entire Batwoman TV show in the first place.

Apparently the show is considered a part of the CW Arrowverse (in reference to the CW show Arrow featuring Oliver Queen, for those of you who need extra info) and ran for 3 whole seasons before being cancelled on April 9, 2022.

And they gave us actual canon lesbian Kate Kane rep. I mean, she is a lesbian. But yeah. CW actually acknowledged her sexual orientation. So kudos for doing the bare minimum?????

Anyway, I guess the showrunners just decided they wanted Kate's birthday to be on January 26 instead of March 21??? Idk if this was supposed to be a reference or an homage to Cassandra Cain's birthday. I doubt it, but who knows?)

🤡Dick Grayson🤡: Greedy bitch who keeps lying about his birthday so he can scam people into giving him more presents jk jk

Most popular: "On the first day of spring" (bruh) or March 20/21

Other date(s): March 6, "April," October 24 (aka "the week before Halloween"), November 11 and December 1

Potential but unconfirmed date(s): June 24

(Dick's canon bday seems to be influx. March 6, March 20, March 21, November 11, June 24, December 1, and so on. I did see multiple sources state Dick was born "on the first day of spring." I'm unclear atm about whether this is a fanon take or if it was actually stated in a particular comic at some point.

As far as I'm concerned, Dick just keeps lying about his birthday for the lols)

(Update ((8/24/23)): Well, guess what I found, folks?

It's a return visit from our favorite friend, the Super DC Calendar of 1976. And according to it, Dick's birthday should be November 11.

You can also thank the Young Justice comic for the confusion surrounding Dick's bday being on December 1.

Also, I found this post by @theflyingwonder that helps clear up a LOT of the mess surrounding Dick's ever changing birth date. Honestly, amazing work and extra kudos to them for putting all the work in and finding all the sources. I just wished I had found their post earlier, holy shit.

And if you have some extra time, please give some love to @inkydandy for their hilarious and very sweet comic about all the confusion that comes with Dick's bday)

(Update ((8/25/23)): Many thanks to @poisoned-ivy for clearing up even more of the mess surrounding Dick's bday. I went ahead and took a screenshot of their response to my old "Which date is Dick's canon bday?" poll.

They also provided a link to the DC Universe Calendar which was lovingly compiled from the original 1976 Super DC Calendar and then put together by the people who run the Five Earths Project .

Also found out from them today that October 24 is one of Dick's bdays ((at least for Post-Crisis Dick Grayson)). So that was a fun new discovery!

They were also very helpful in helping me realize that the original article I had found that stated "sometime in April" was actually in reference to Dick Grayson's first appearance in the comics, which was April 1940.

So, yes, "sometime in April" is technically--again I hate this word so much now--still a valid candidate for Dick's bday. And before you ask: Detective Comics #38 was actually published on March 6, 1940.

Hence why people will cite March 6 as Dick's canon bday instead.

This project got a lot bigger than I ever expected it to ... god)

👑Barbara Gordon👑: September 23

👑Jason Todd👑: August 16

👑Cassandra Cain👑: January 26

👑Tim Drake👑: July 19

👑Stephanie Brown😮‍💨: She emerged from the void with the sole purpose of dragging Bruce's ass to hell and back. Nothing can stop her. We all exist in her world now.

Potential but unconfirmed date(s): June 23, "August," or August 11

(For real, though, some peeps will say June 23 since the month she officially debuted in the comics was June 1992.

But I've also seen August 1992 listed as her bday month as well--lot of August babies in the Batfam, huh--but I haven't found June 23 specifically listed as her canon bday, either. It honestly feels like the fans are putting in more work than DC at this point. Which, like, I'm not surprised. Just disappointed)

(Update ((8/24/23)): Someone mentioned August 11 as a potential birth date, but I have yet to see an actual source that specifically states this. If I do find one, I'll edit this section. Figured I should put it here just in case, though)

👑Duke Thomas👑: August 13

👑Damian Wayne👑: August 9

👑Terry McGinnis😮‍💨

Most popular: August 18

Other date(s): June 27 or August 10

Potential but unconfirmed date(s): September 19 (fml)

(Yes, I'm including Terry, fuck you lol

Also SERIOUSLY WTF is up with so many of these August birthdays!!!! Fuck, was everyone just getting crazy BUSY in November!!!! What's going on in the DC universe that is making November of all months the HORNY MONTH????!!!!)

(Mini update ((8/18/23)): Well, I just found out that apparently June 27th 2023 is also a highly debated birth date for Terry. As is August 10 2023/2024 and August 18 2023/2024. I even saw a mention of September 19 2023, but I don't know how credible that source actually is. I'm just putting it here because I'm losing my mind and I don't want someone to pop in and say I forgot it omfg I'm dying

I'm just ... why? Why is it so hard to just commit to one month and one date. I'm not even concerned about the exact year. Just commit to ONE, man.

Excuse me while I march over to DC HQ and burn the whole place to the ground iswtfg)

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on any of these. I have a massive headache now and am open to any suggestions or clarifications y'all have to offer.

Also, I'm going to fist fight Dick in a Denny's parking lot.

Update (8/17/23): So a mini post that I meant to use as a way to vent how insane Dick was making me somehow blew up way more than I ever expected it to, and now I feel obligated to clarify again that I am open to any corrections and additional info that anyone has to offer.

I'm saying this because I've noticed people reblogging this post for actual Batfam bday references and someone already pointed out I fucked up Tim's bday and now I feel bad for everyone who reblogged this post prior to that edit.

It's probably just the anxiety talking, but yeah I just wanted to put that out there.

Also justice for Stephanie Brown! She deserves to have her own special day and if I have to bully DC into giving her a canon birthday, then you bet your ass I fucking will.

(And to all of y'all who are encouraging Dick to keep running his side scam business, I just have this to say: There's an empty Denny's parking lot somewhere out there just waiting for you, too lol)

[fancyhandsbakery]

Here is how I calculate the bat-families current ages using evidence from the comics that the writers love to ignore bc there is no way for their now canon ages to match their cannon age gaps. (If you don’t want to wait, results are the 2nd set of bullet points)

Here is what we know about their current ages:

Dick is 28 or 27(somewhere around there) in the current Nightwing run(if he’s 26 tell me and just minus one from the final results)

Jason is, I think, 22 or 23 as of Task force Z or something if I remember right

Tim is finally 18

And Damian is 14 as of the newest Robin series

Here is what we know about their canon age gaps:

We know that Jason and Dick are 7 years apart. Why? In Batman 416 we find out that that Dick is 19 and Jason is 12 when they first meet in post crisis

We know that Tim and Jason are 2 or 3(2.5 really) years apart. Why? Jason dies when he is 15. Following his birthday and Tim being 13 when he becomes Robin, they have to be 2.5 years apart. I’ll use 2 and 3 for simplicity.

Tim and Damian are 6/7 year apart. Why? Tim is 17 in Red Robin and Damian is 10.

Cassandra is less than a year older than Jason. Why? We find out when Bruce shows her Jason’s grave.

Duke is 16 when we meet him. Damian is around 12. Tim is still 17. So Duke and Damian are 4 year apart.

Per the original 40s comics, Dick and Bruce have a 14 year age gap. In the 2002 run, they have a 10 year age gap.

So how do we make sense of this.

Damian is the most recent and cannon age we know so we have to use his age to find everyone’s actual age. Red is cannon ages.

Damian(14) + 6/7 = Tim(20/21)

Tim(20/21) + 2/3 = Jason(22/23)

Jason(22/23) + >1 = Cassandra(22.5/23/23.5/24)

Jason(22/23) + 6/7 = Dick(28/29/29/30)

Damian(14) + 4 = Duke (18)

Final ages

Damian is 14

Duke is 18

Tim is 20 or 21

Jason is 22 or 23

Cassandras is <23.5

Dick is 29 or 30

Now Bruce. In the original comics(1942), Dick is 8 when his parents die, but is retconned to be 12 in the 2002 comics. I’ll do both timelines. Bruce’s starting age is hard to agree on. I see 22 a lot and given the out come of this, it makes sense because Bruce is currently in his 40s.

Using the 1940s ages, Dick and Bruce have a 14 year old age gap. (22 - 8 = 14) Given that Dick has to be 29 or 30, Bruce is 43 or 44. These ages make sense in cannon.

Using the 2002 ages, Dick and Bruce have a 10 year age gap. (22 - 12 = 10) Given that Dick has to be 29 or 30, Bruce is 39 or 40. These make less sense given the ages he would adopt the other kids and what we know in cannon.

Bruce is 43 or 44

Stephanie would be 21 or 22 by the way.

Barbra is older than Dick by a sum. Probably less than 35.

I would love to know what you think. Did I mess up with anything?

Edit made: I fucked up Duke's age. He'd be 18 bc he's 4 years older than Damian. 14 + 4 = 18

[a-bad-case-of-the-stephs]

Let’s talk about the significance of how Stephanie Browns first ever appearance is tied directly to a TV broadcast about Batman, and how it perfectly explains why she's such a remarkable character.

Detective Comics #647

The full sentence the TV broadcaster says is “It’s not up to some masked vigilante to protect our citizens …. No matter how good his intentions…No matter how noble his cause”.

This scene asks us to compare the characters of Batman, who the statement is textually about, and Stephanie, who is viewing it and (presumably), being inspired by it. The panel itself seems to encourage use to try to apply these lines to Steph instead of Batman, framing the latter proclamation directly above her head, almost like a text box telling us this information about her. If we apply these lines to her, we can see an idea emerge.

There is this figure, who is not only not necessary, but unacceptable on the face of it, “…No matter how good [her] intentions...” / “…No matter how noble [her] cause…”

The first time we see Stephanie brown, she is being showcased alongside a condemnation, which is followed by her disregarding the message of this broadcast, and appearing for the very first time as Spoiler.

Dismissal and Stephanie ignoring this condemnation continues on to be one of the central facets of Stephanie’s character. In the same introduction arc we already see the dismissal/disregard dynamic established.

Batman and/or Robin tell her to Fuck Off, she chooses not to:

Detective #649

This pattern continues on for some time. She is dismissed by Batman

Robin #16, Robin #26, Robin #50 (1993)

And by Tim Drake/Robin:

Robin #25, Robin #35, and Robin #26 (1993)

And by her own mother:

Robin #71 (1993)

When she finally becomes an official part of the team in 2001, there is a break in this pattern. But, as always, Stephanie is eventually pushed out again:

Gotham Knights #37 (2000)

But, as always, Steph says “fuck that”, and refuses to stop.

Even in the face of dear friends agreeing she should give it up.

Batgirl #38 (2000)

And when Steph is brought in as Robin, she is again dismissed, in this case “Fired” soon after. She doesn’t quit of course, leading to the disastrous events of War Games.

Robin #128 (1993)

And when she comes back from being “dead” she is dismissed again, by Robin.

Robin #182 (1993)

This isn’t every time someone tells her to quit being Spoiler, but instead a showcase of how prevalent the Dismissal/Disregarding dynamic is for her character.

I am working on two other posts, one which will explain in depth Why the way she was “fired” as Spoiler has everything to do with Bruce Wayne’s own hangups and emotionally manipulative quirks and very little to do with her own skill level. The other will analyze why she feels the compulsion to be keep being Spoiler even after having Every reason to quit and being told to do so hundreds of times.

However, for the purposes of this post, all that matters is that this Dismissal/Disregarding dynamic exists and is a huge and reoccurring part of Stephanie’s character.

Whether or not you think she “deserved” how often she was rejected, and whether or not you think her disregarding the rejection was “good” or not doesn’t come into play here.

For now, let’s focus on the implications this dynamic has for her character in a meta sense, as a character who is used and discarded.

A character who is for all intents and purposes, the narrative punching bag. She endures character dismissal and belittling, three separate backstory instances of sexual harassment as a child and teenager, teenage pregnancy, abuse, taking care of a parent struggling with addiction, brutal and (debatably) sexualized torture, character assassination, death, retconned death, and further character assassination until 2009, where she finally gets her own solo comic, and a modicum of respect. The thing that separates the horrible shit Stephanie goes through and the bad things that happen to other characters is only rarely are Stephanie’s struggles treated as significant on their own, and almost always her narrative is used for drama or to prop up Robin Tim Drake’s plot. Very rarely does she get treated with the care and attention her character merits.

But let’s go back to that news broadcast, all the way back in Detective #647. How does she take it, when we are told, when Stephanie is told, first thing, straight out of the gate, plain and simple: No matter how good your intentions, no matter how noble your cause, you is not enough, or you’re too much, or your just not right?

It is met by a triumphantly tragic: “And?”

Stephanie hears from the VERY start the same refrain she will hear for years and years: she is not good enough, she needs to go home, she needs to quit and she does the exact thing she will continue to do every following time she is told this: she puts on the damn Spoiler outfit and she still tries anyway. Again and again.

The next time we see Stephanie Brown after this, the second time we ever see her character, she has donned the Spoiler costume, and she’s got to work. “And?” She seems to say. “As if!” She seems to shout. What a perfectly awe inspiring thing, and what a perfect summary of what makes Stephanie Brown so damn cool.

For better or worse, you cannot keep her down. I love Stephanie Brown so much.

And if you want to read a comic which understands this, which treats the terrific character of Stephanie Brown with respect and love, and which for the first time maybe ever lets her stubborn refusal to give up go her way? Read Batgirl (2009)!!

Batgirl #3 (2008) & Bruce Wayne: The Road Home - Batgirl (2010)

[fantastic-nonsense]

so what about the dick and steph sorting?

@teleportationmagic yes! Steph was easy, at least for me.

She brought a war to her father and then discovered a passion for the superhero lifestyle. She's intensely driven, with a deep-seated need to ensure justice is served. She's resilience. She's resolve. She's fiercely protective of her own autonomy and filled with stubborn determination in the face of everyone telling her no. She's got a mission and she'll carry it out regardless of the obstacles in her way. No matter the horrors and setbacks, no matter what everybody tells her, no matter the judgements passed on her abilities, and no matter what she promised in her darkest moments, she'll be out there fighting, both because of her genuine desire to help people and for the sheer love of the life.

“Fight or flight…I choose fight. -Batgirl (2009) #2

She's a daughter of Ares.

Dick was....harder. My first instinct was to make him a son of Apollo. But that didn't quite work, the more I thought about it. There were too many instances of me having to warp Dick to fit the role I wanted him to fill instead of the other way around. But Hermes felt right. Hermes is the god with the most versatile and diverse set of domains, which not only fits with Dick's jack of all trades skillset but also with his specific set of life circumstances.

Hermes is the patron of travellers and roads. Dick rarely stays in one place for long; constantly rotating between Gotham, Bludhaven, and wherever the Titans are headquartered are about as stable as he gets. He's also a natural athlete and a born showman, making him a perfect fit for the god of athletes and athletic competition. And I'd never pass up an opportunity to remind people that Dick is a gearhead who loves to tinker and make his own gear, a fun side interest that's adjacent to Hermes' domain as the god of invention.

But more importantly, Hermes is the messenger of the gods, the herald of news both good and bad. He's the god of diplomacy, of orators, of language and writing, and of cunning manipulation through speech and skill in social settings. One of Dick's greatest strengths is his charisma, his ability to draw people in and convince them to follow him...and his ability to manipulate people into doing what he wants. He's a polyglot, very socially intelligent, and a brilliant public speeker. He's also, more metatextually, the forerunner of all legacy heroes, the herald of a new era in the heroing community. Making Dick a son of Hermes just felt natural after that.

[creature-phases]

In the in universe batfamily fandom there’s a relatively famous (infamous?) subgenre of fic known as the “Billionaire Bats AU” that has the Wayne family as the Bat family.

It spawns from a fic of the same name that first came out shortly after Tim started publicly appearing as Robin and is running to this day (though uploads are far less frequent)

When it first got popular there was a small amount of time where Bruce thought Tim was writing it because it got a little too many things right. Though he is able to rule that out after he finds the actual author who’s just some 14 year old girl.

The fandom gets into a lot of arguments about it:

“Barbara Gordon is a random choice for being the former batgirl I mean seriously? Just cause they both have red hair doesn’t make it make sense”

“Guys RPF is icky knock it off”

“It actually makes more sense if Batman is a time traveling Dick Grayson from a bad future”

“I’m sorry I can’t get past having Tim Drake as Red Robin have you seen the guy?? The wind could knock him over”

“Bruce is really ooc here”

“I don’t like the retcon that Tim Drake was one of the Robins”

One controversial take was when the fic introduced Clark Kent as Superman because the author is a BruClark shipper and was pushing her agenda since “Superbat is basically canon” so them being the same people made it more realistic.

Bruce keeps an eye on it just in case and it has resulted in Tim and Steph having to explain so much slang to him.

“What is an OTP? Why do people keep asking for a ‘Bruce whump’ chapter??”

[suzukiblu]

. . . so I know the understandable fandom cliche is for Tim to make a grief-baby from his and Kon's DNA for handwave-y reasons, but LOGICALLY, given his incredibly messy downward spiral, if he DID need extra DNA to stabilize his custom Kon, wouldn't he use Steph or Bart's? Wouldn't one of them be the obvious choice to his messed-up self?? He is SPOILED for dead people's DNA to use!!

Anyway that's my new pitch for a Timkon clonebaby now, tiny little blonde gymnast with bright yellow eyes and a Speed Force connection and tactile telekinesis and a thing for sunbeams and three INCREDIBLY STUBBORN and too-smart-for-their-own-good brains jammed into one. Tim, you will regret this so much, and not because of the dubious ethics of the situation or anything like that but because you are gonna have to deal with Kon, Steph, AND Bart's collective "why??" and "no!!" phases all wrapped up in one tiny superchild.

And THEN you will get to explain said tiny superchild to ALL THREE OF THEM when they ALL come back.

Tim, full-on spiraling as he cooks up clonebaby soup in the Titans Tower basement: this is a normal stage of grief :)))

Cassie, somewhere, feeling a chill up her spine: gods Tim please don't be Gun Batman again

[bitterrobin]

you, batman/batfamily fan, can you be normal about parents and their flaws without making them exaggerated abusers?

can you absorb the fact that Jack and Janet Drake were not perfect parents, but they still loved Tim? and that Tim loved them enough that he tried to tear a razor sharp boomerang out of his father's corpse with his bare hands? that the Drakes were not millionaires who forced high society values onto their son for the sake of a public image? (that they weren't even rich for that long of a time?)

can you be normal about how the deep recesses of poverty affect a family unit while allowing a parent nuance? can you write Willis Todd without making him a classist caricature of an abuser? can you write Catherine Todd and Crystal Brown without portraying their drug addictions as fodder for their children's whump? (I added in Crystal bc she canonically suffered from drug addiction, but I haven't seen much of her in fics tbh)

can you accept that as much an abuser David Cain was, he still loved Cassandra enough that he utterly fell apart when she left him? That he was genuinely astonished/proud of her when she spoke to him for the first time even as she threatened him? he still sucks majorly, but you can't deny that he loved her. that's what makes their relationship so painful.

can you be normal about Talia al Ghul? can you write her without making her an ooc rapist or child abuser or cold dragon lady? can you acknowledge that every ounce of her characterization surrounding Damian is vastly different from her original pre-Morrison personality to the extent that og Talia would never even have a child in the League?

can you pick apart when a parents portrayal is out of character, that a writer made them hit or neglect their child because above all else they exist for drama and action? that you can find DC characters who actually had traumatic childhoods instead of grafting them onto a Bat-character? (> this last sentence is mostly about Tim btw)

Exploring a character's parents and how they affected them is always interesting, but I've seen fics that genuinely steer towards character assassination rather than an exploration of events written in the comics. They exaggerate a parent's portrayal not to write about a complicated parent-child dynamic but so they can have Bruce or Jason rushing in to comfort them (yes, this is about the Tim Drake shrimp fic). Idk, I think most of my ire just stems from the fact that content about Mia Dearden or Todd Rice or Grant Emerson aren't widespread, Mia specifically always gets explored in Bat-circles as someone that just adds to Jason's character rather than analyzing her on her own, in addition to the constant hell that Talia goes through in both canon and fanon.

[rredboard]

many posts going around about female characters and their recognition on tumblr… so i wanted to talk a little bit abt dc women (and bc this is a tim/bats blog — i’m talking specifically about cass and babs and steph)

they are given so much emotional depth, compassion, and presence in the earlier comics — that’s what makes me love them so much!! like they fuck up and learn and just exhibit incredible strength and will. this complexity and care nowadays is replaced with just. blatant infantilization and blandness.

to see them have so much power in the comics and to have them so brutally lost that in the canon since the 2010s is so sad and legitimately painful. and it’s all the more frustrating to see this same ineptitude and absence reproduced by fans who claim to be making a “better version of canon” with them always still missing!! it um. sucks ass, for uh. lack of a better term…