#the north and dorne

[atopvisenyashill]

Ok, so, there's a lot of pushback in this fandom against Northern and Dornish independence. And a lot of the time, people go the "But what about unity!" route. I was curious as to what you think of that? Because that kind of reaction seems, to me, like people are ignoring the fact that it's possible for people to stand united without being directly ruled over by each other. Maybe it's a lack of imagination or a straight up refusal to look at things from a different - perhaps foreign - angle, I don't know, but people can get really stubborn and holier-than-thou about this whole thing.

Well I would definitely say I'm up in the air about it happening or not but I agree I think people ignore that they could have an alliance that more or less continues to stand strong without being under one crown. First of all, like, this is fictional history, and I think if he just wants to handwave a bit so they stay friendly but under different crowns, that's like, fine. And secondly, I mean I guess maybe this is a more modern take, but I was picturing like an EU situation where there are different crowns with slightly different laws but all ultimately very aligned and in tune with each other. I think that's not out of the realm of possibility considering The Bran Hivemind Of It All - makes for long distance communication made easy.

And anyways, I think people often imagine that they'll break up into the petty kingdoms but that's not it at all. For my own theorizing, I think there would be two (and a half) major differences in a post game break up and the pre series petty kingdoms.

They'll split up into less kingdoms

They'll properly work out alliances amongst each other to keep peace (rather than, again, the petty alliances of before)

Potential geographic changes

Let's go to a map. Basically I think it'll be three (ish) kingdoms-

The pink line is around where the Dornish border would be. This is why I suggested Bran marrying someone of Dornish heritage - it's a way to get Dorne into the middle kingdom, a sort of opening so that the Marches don't get too violent again. Then you have that yellow section - I've talked about this before a little bit but basically I think the Neck is going to be flooded like the arm of dorne was. So the same way the Arm of Dorne was "broken" the Others are going to "Break the Neck" and flood most of it - and just like the disputed lands distance themselves from everyone because of that new geographic barrier, I think it's not unlikely that the North will want their own kingdom because of that (and all the other reasons).

But note all that in the middle kingdom? I think that's going to stay together. The geographic barriers aren't really big enough or as difficult to traverse there - the riverlands has no real geographic barriers for one thing, and the hills and mountains that separate the Reach from the Westerlands have never been particularly difficult to cross either - Robb does it during a war.

I think people tend to feel like any sort of breakup goes against the themes but I don't know about that. I know people picture like, nationalistic movements like the quebec thing or confederacy esque stuff, and certainly I'm not advocating for balkanization here. Rather just like, borders that make a little more sense when you factor in the cultures and geography and the day to day use of the land by the people living there. And I think all the parallels between the North and Dorne are here for several reasons but when you think of the way neither was ever truly conquered, both experience some level of prejudicial behavior from the mostly Andal + Faith worshipping middle kingdoms, both have a Main Character Heiress who is clearly getting ready to start moving and shaking politically, the Lyanna/Elia parallels, and in general the parallels between the RR era Martells and Starks, I think that maybe this means both of them are going to push for their own crowns but will be willing to talk about caveats to that independence because they have at last seen the similarities that exist between their peoples. But again, I'm not totally firm on this - I honestly think it's a toss up right now.

[studyofasoiaf]

Names used in Westeros

(names of book characters from Westeros, Valyrian names of Targaryens included)

Crownlands

Dorne

Iron Islands

North

Reach

Riverlands

Stormlands

Vale

Valyrian

Westerlands

[daenysthedreamer101]

[agentrouka-blog]

So, what do you think of the people who go all "But what about unity!" "GRRM is all about unifying, though" "It would be a bad message for one of the kingdoms to become independent after they've just learnt to work together after the Long Night!" "But that means they'll go right back to being seperate, rival kingdoms!" whenever the topic of Northern (or Dornish, for that matter) independence, or the idea that the 'Seven' Kingdoms will dissolve is brought up? I'm asking because those arguments are the bane of my existence, and I'm this 👌 close to losing my mind and walking into the woods, never to be seen again.

Yes, we all know that the only way to cooperation and prosperity is a forced union under one glorious leader. 😍

(I always wonder which outcome they want to enable by insisting on this. Who is it they need to be monarch of this entity?)

If the only reason for working together is the threat of war for wanting to secede, you're not cooperating, you're just an opportunity away from the next separatist civil war.

Every region/kingdom needs to be able to choose. And those with historically strong leanings toward independence are likely going to choose independence. Moral posturing about the abstract value of political "unity" doesn't replace that desire or the need to accept it. It also ignores all other options, like pacts, alliances, trade agreements...

And if others actually want to choose to form a political union of some kind, this still doesn't need to take on the shape of one kingdom under one dynasty.

Middle kingdoms forming a voluntary union of highly autonomous regions with a permanent Great Council and a symbolic figurehead king in Harrenhal, possibly electoral, is my guess.

And independence for Dorne and the North 100%.

Also, very important: the end result doesn't have to be perfect to be better than Targaryen oppression under the Iron Throne. Aegon did away with the destructive threat of Harren Hoare conquering other kingdoms only to place himself at the top. The problem there was not the freedom of the other kingdoms? It was the violent oppression by a tyrannical conqueror. The idea that they were dysfunctional before the Targs is nonsense.

[chic-beyond-the-wall-oc-acct]

Forgot I was going to post pictures of this--

Apples for scale because I needed them to hold parts down

It's really cool but it's also a pain 😂

This isn't even all of it. It's just all I get to sit still for pictures

[myimaginationplain]

living literally anywhere else in the Seven Kingdoms has to feel like a massive downgrade to anyone born & raised in Highgarden or Oldtown. like damn the rest of y'all live like this?

[oflorelei]

Whenever I read about the North I feel like William Wallace from Braveheart BC god damn do I want them to be independent, got me howling "FOR THE NORTH!!" like its 1300's scottland

[mzminola]

That said I think the most fun fusion fic would be to give Bruce the Mance Rayder role. Ex Night's Watch still trying to save the Realms of Men the best way he knows how (by breaking all the rules).

Dick is an orphan Bruce picks up during one of his first self-appointed climbing-back-over-the-Wall-to-spy missions. Barbara is a kissed-by-fire Wildling greenseer. Jason is a Wildling orphan that tries to steal Bruce's Night Brother sword. Cass is a warg who's been feral since running from her dad.

At some point Jason gets it into his head that he needs to Prove He's A Man Now, climbs over the Wall without Bruce, and bridenaps Tim. Whether Tim is a girl or Jason just mistook Tim for one is dealer's choice.

They bicker the entire way back to main camp until Dick runs over to defuse whatever disaster this is, at which point Tim & Dick go "You!!!" because the Drakes were at the Flying Grayson Troupe's last performance before the bandits got them.

[atopvisenyashill]

i want a history of dorne in the century after nymeria conquered it, george i am outside your house right now

i was thinking about the red princes specifically because i started linking them to sansa, bran, and arya as a ruling triumvirate of sorts-

why are they ruling as a triumvirate? it can't be a triplet thing, we've seen twins before and the first twin out rules. there has to be A Reason they decided they should rule equally (do they rule equally? or does one outrank the other two?) at the same time.

i love the idea of one of them being disabled and relying on the other two to help them rule, the way doran relies on oberyn in many ways to be his man in the field - although again it does beg the question "but WHY."

i think with a bran/sansa/arya scenario, where bran is ruling but is known to not be able to have children, so his heirs will come from his sisters, one of whom is more Political Game minded, one of whom is more Active In The Field minded, it makes for an interesting triumvirate where everyone has their own role - that sort of head, hands, and heart sweet spot.

HOWEVER i'm not sure a disabled man would Have to share power in this way which is why i lean towards the oldest and disabled red prince being a woman and not a man. given how closely this happens after the rhoynar come to dorne, i wonder if it was a trade off in some way - with too much doubt on whether a disabled girl can rule, she willingly lets her siblings rule beside her to ensure peace, and in turn they get power while ensuring their family isn't overthrown for like, the daynes or yronwoods.

i am intrigued by the fact that they suppressed parts of rhoynar custom by refusing to allow the orphans to speak their mother tongue. i want to know if this was a trade off for them in some way as well - keep some rhoynar customs like absolute primogeniture but give into some of the pushy andal customs like speaking their language.

was one of them a warrior? again with the bran/sansa/arya parallels here, with one of the girls potentially being a warrior because the red princes are known for being involved in many wars so....

they do manage to establish a populated town in dorne, something that's historically been a bit difficult. they get trade going, which is probably a major factor in building dorne up as a separate kingdom instead of being swallowed up or falling back into the petty kings. again, curious if there will be a sort of parallel here, where bran/arya/sansa can help build up several new towns int he north, something that is historically difficult to do.

[deaneyrs]

thinking about dany standing in the snow of the north for the first time, mesmerized and shivering as if she has the most violent of fevers. pressing her hand against cold stone and ice, her palm quickly turns from blood flushed to a light shade of blue. no amount of furs can keep the chill away. no amount of fire can warm her.

[imaginarianisms]

more asoiaf comparisons, parallels & antiparallels to the first dance of the dragons vs the second & final dance of the dragons (& possibly the sixth blackfyre rebellion): the blacks being daenerys i targaryen's supporters, the golds being aegon vi targaryen's supporters, tommen baratheon being a close equivalent to gaemon palehair & his mother essie & sylvenna sand which may be interpreted as a parallel with queen cersei lannister & taena merryweather of myr, trystane truefyre being a close equivalent to aegon/young griff & perkin being jon connington & the shepherd being the new high septon the high sparrow, dalton greyjoy being euron i greyjoy's ancestor & the latter surpassing him, alyn waters later alyn velaryon resembling aurane waters later aurane velaryon & finishing what their ancestors started. history repeats itself.

[ser-zoras]

the riverlands are Appalachia because what is open elsewhere is treated as taboo but still practiced and everyone’s been there forever

the stormlands are the eastern seaboard bc you aren’t growing shit there but at least you got fish but driftmark and dragonstone in particular are New England as some of the places that were first colonized and have since been unfathomably changed in the image of the colonizers

the north is the states that border Canada plus Alaska because they occupy a huge chunk of the country with a subzero population, but white harbor specifically is Halifax, Nova Scotia, because it’s the biggest city for hundreds of miles but is still a bit claustrophobic.

the vale is the Rockies because they are mountainous and the eyrie specifically is Colorado because I associate Colorado with people who are rich and frightening.

dorne is around the Gulf of Mexico but specifically the really nice parts because the impression I get of both Dorne and the Texas coast is that they are hot and fun. However dorne would also included Louisiana because it has an undeserved reputation as a place of debauchery.

the reach is the Midwest because duh. Bread basket. Idk if it’s canon but i also think the reach is pretty religious. Also the Great Lakes are gorgeous and that’s the highgarden vibe.

the crownlands are Maryland, Washington DC, and northeast Virginia. Where else would they be.

and the westerlands are the west coast bc they’re full of people who are pretty and/or blonde who I do not trust at all

[candepie]

The Seven Kingdoms of Westeros in Game of Thrones https://candepie.com/the-seven-kingdoms-of-westeros-in-game-of-thrones/

[cjbolan]

I mean...I still do feel bad for Aegon. Sure, it doesn't excuse that he became a bad parent and a poor ruler, but who were his role models growing up exactly? People like Otto and Alicent. He's messed up but they *made* him messed up. He didn't even *WANT* to be king. He was forced onto the throne, is it a surprise he's a bad king?

And as for the mistreatment of the bastard sons, it's kind of really a Westeros thing? Where illegitimate children are generally treated like peasants or subhumans and unworthy of respect in general by most of the royal houses? So while Aegon is still wrong, he's just part of a bigger cultural problem.

Ultimately it's the distinction between "empathize" (relate to on an emotional level and understand their motives) and "sympathize" (condone and agree with their beliefs and actions) that most fans are missing. We empathize, but not sympathize, with Aegon.

Well said. While the mistreatment of bastards has a Westerosi cultural component, I think Aegon is much crueler to his bastards than anyone else in Westeros. He’s the only one I’ve seen willingly send his bastards to die.

Everyone else in Westeros either ignores their bastards, like Robert Baratheon did. Or give them shelter and even acknowledge them as their bastards, like Ned Stark and Roose Bolton did. And then there’s Dorne where bastards can live as well as any noble.

Now you got me thinking … the North and Dorne may be the 2 most bastard-friendly parts of Westeros. I wonder why.

[wintearys]

i' have a few faceclaims to cast, i'm gonna try and cast more northerns because you know i'm for the north in this household. I got a few inspirations from some beauties from vikings valhalla and more.