#thats not what mspec gays are about either

[redheadbigshoes]

I don’t know how to phrase this without sounding like a terf so I’m just gonna be really clear and say I am not .Trans women are women and trans men are men.

I’m primarily into women and sexually only psychically into traditionally “female” traits (i.e. breasts, vulvas) but I don’t feel that gender matters so much to me? I know some people must be, but I am not attracted ti gender, I’m attracted to presentation and sex characteristics. If I perceive someone as a man I’m probably not attracted to them, regardless of if they actually are. If I perceive someone as a woman but they don’t have the body parts I find attractive I won’t be attracted to them. It’s just not really about gender to me. But. I think the same would reason with trans men; it doesn’t matter that they’re men if they have what I’m attracted to or lack the things I don’t like (typical male stuff). If I perceive them as a woman and then find out they are a man I don’t think it much matters to me their gender. attractive is attractive. however, it’s almost entirely women I find attractive. I just think I’m not so sure if I actually care whether they’re women; I mean, women are ideal, but like. If someone has the things in attracted ti (which are the typical woman things) I don’t think my sexuality care about their gender. Does this mean I’m pan??? I think I clearly have a preference. Although in theory it’s not for gender so much as for what they have in their clothes. But thats not even a preference so much as I don’t think I could ever date anyone with a penis honestly, and I probably wouldn’t date someone without boobs (but maybe). Am I homoflexible? Am I a lesbian? I feel like the way we categorize it is kind of difficult because I understand categorizing sexuality by gender and not sex because there’s many good reasons to, but at the same time gender isn’t what I’m attracted to physically. and yeah I’m still not 100% sure if I’d date a trans guy since I don’t know any but I have perceived them as a woman on the internet before, realized they were a man, but i mean. They’re still attractive.

I don’t usually respond to this kind of ask but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

That wouldn’t be pansexuality because from everything you said it does seem like you prefer women, and pansexuality is attraction to people regardless of their gender (so basically you wouldn’t have any gender preferences). Even if you didn’t prefer women, from what I understand you’re attracted only to one type of genitalia, which imo that doesn’t seem like pansexuality.

Homoflexible in my opinion is a very problematic label, homophobic and biphobic. You either are homosexual (gay/lesbian) or not, there’s no flexibility, that flexibility is bisexuality (or any other mspec term).

There’s a bunch of terms that are not “limiting” (though I don’t like using this word) as lesbian. There’s sapphic, queer, polysexual, bisexual, omnisexual… If you look it up you will probably find a term that fits what you’re describing.

[gloaming-sometimes]

first of all, the way you worded this comes off as belittling, i dont know if that was your intention but thats how it feels. i'll answer regardless but know that i and anyone else with a nuanced identity are not obligated to to justify our identities to you because you dont understand it or at the very least respect our right to self determination. im going to be so honest with you when i say that sentiments like this in the queer community (as in "i dont understand your identity therefore it is bigoted to me personally/the rest of what i deem the 'real' community") is a deep plague to us. stupid ass discourse (which is almost exclusively an online phenomenon, btw) is not helping progress us as a community with ourselves or with non-queers, it isnt helping fight the often times life or death issues we face and it sures a hell isn't helping/uplifting anyone in our community; in fact i would argue it is doing the exact opposite of all those things.

anywho, on to answering your actual question. you clearly already know the literal definition of these terms but i feel your understanding of what being bi, pan, otherwise mspec, lesbian, gay, etc is incomplete (and i am not claiming mine or anyone else's is either, out of eight billion people it would impossible to understand every label as every individual sees themselves in relation to it). so let me just go over some things:

bi does not always mean attraction to two genders (often defined as two or more), it does not always mean attraction to both men and women (for example you could only like women and nonbinary people or any other combination of genders), and it is not always static attraction to the same two genders at a fixed preference (see the term bi-cycle, people who may or may not identify as abro/orientationally fluid may also identify as bi. not every bi person always likes two or more genders at the same time)

m-spec does not just mean bi, pan, omni, poly/poli/ply, abro. it is an UMBRELLA TERM for anyone who likes more than one gender. that can mean a lot of things to a lot of different people.

lesbian/gay/homo have not always meant exclusive attraction to the same/similar gender. lesbian started out as an umbrella term much like how sapphic is used now and gay started out as a derogatory term. in my opinion nothing about the term homosexual/romantic/etc indicates that it is exclusive, just that it is attraction of a same or similar gender or is queer in nature

heres a more tangible example of the labels being used like this: a bi lesbian who does not like men (likes women + nonbinary people, may or may not identify as enbian/diamoric/cenelian/etc), a genderfluid person who is only attracted to women so is sometimes hetero and sometimes lesbian (not inherently an mspec identity the way i described it), a multigender person who is homo- for both genders making them gaybian/sapphillean/etc (thats what i am!), a bi/abro/fluid person who always/commonly likes men and sometimes likes women might identify as bi/abro gay/straight, so on and so on. and thats not even getting into split attraction model (for example being bisexual homoromantic). are you starting to understand that conceptualizing queer labels as being rigid, "opposites" of each other and incapable overlapping is not reflective of people's experience with their identity and the way they chose to label it?

i feel like the reason behind some people understanding queerness like this goes back to recent gay rights movements which, while have been pretty affective and by far are a net positive, has "dumbed down" queer reality to make it easier for non-queers to understand. to make us more digestible, more conforming to "the norm" (which i have gripes with as it leaves many of behind, specifically those of us who cannot or dont want to conform to those norms). an unfortunate side effect of this is that now almost all queer representation in pop-culture is seen through this lense of digestibility, of respectability politics, which leads to even people in our own community (especially those who dont know an in person community and/or dont know queer history) understanding what we are and what we are capable of being as less than what it is.

if you'll notice mspec gays/lesbians/straights include both terms in the name, because the person in reference to the term is both. "why are you terrified of just being bisexual" i am just bisexual, i am also just lesbian, i am also just gay, i am also just something that no label will ever be able to fully describe. i like labels for myself though, they make me happy, so i stitch them together in a way that is me. do you understand yet? having a nuanced identity like this is not biphobic, homophobic or denying yourself what you are; it is quite the contrary, the labels i use were born from a deep love for myself, for how i experience identity. if you think being bisexual makes you "normal" thats your problem because i promise that is not the case. and ill say it! there are MANY ways relationships between a man and a woman can be queer (trans person with a trans person, trans person with a cis person (if that is how they see their relationship), transman/masc/etc in a lesbian relationship, transwoman/fem/etc in a gay relationship, aromantic or asexual spectrum, polyamory, male-female mspec relationships, and more). people seem to think that the label fits the person, the label controls what they experience, but that is not the case. all queer labels are opt-in, you choose them, that is the point. what they mean to the individual is extremely personal and unique to them. they are entirely subjective much like nearly everything else in life.

expand what you think it means to be queer, kill the cop in your head.

I habe so many questions for tumblr

what the fuck is a mspec straight, mspec lesbian, mspec gay.. like genuinely why don’t you just say bisexual?? Or pansexual?? Are you scared of being that? I mean I think it’s a little biphobic and homophobic to be scared of just saying you’re mspec ���‍♂️ why are you so terrified of the concept of just being bisexual. It’s like you quiver at what you truly are, because you’re scared of being seen as “normal”. just my thoughts lol.

[angel-archivist]

i fucking hate exclusionists so much <3 

[papermachedreamballoon]

SAW KING GIZZARD LIVE 6/4/23 + 9/1/24

intro under the cut !!!! :3

!!! I AM AN MSPEC LESBIAN/GAY SUPPORTER, TURIGIRL/LESBOY SUPPORTER, & GAYBIAN SUPPORTER!!!! IF YOU DO NOT SUPPORT THEM GET THE FUCK OFF MY PAGE !!!

HII HELLO !! im the #2 king gizzard fan ever!!!! also the #1 two tpot fan & #1 floory ii fan.. the f/os ever. please Dont show me ships involving them

@/gizztism is my number one enemy unironically. i do not like him & i highly suggest you dont either

talk to me about king gizzard i swear i will be normal i swear

my disc is iminyourmindfuzz

twitter: _explodingsuns insta: hawaiipart.ii heads up i am not super active on either so

hawaiipart-ii -> papermachedreamballoon finnegan, stu, joe, joey, & marijuana are the names i prefer at the moment, but feel free to ask for the others :3 i use he/him but it/its & neos are fine too i dont care too much

feel free to ask for my theriotypes/fictionkins

ALSO speaking of fictionkins, i dont mind doubles, EXCEPT for doubles of fan from inanimate insanity. hes literally the most me ever like im so serious ive never felt more “thats me literally” when thinking of/hearing/looking at one of my fictionkins. feel free to interact & such if youre a fan double, but preferably dont follow^^ dni: general dni criteria, terfs, harry potter fans, anti-neos/xenogenders, anti-therian/otherkin, anti-mspec gays/lesbians (do some fucking research), anti-lesboys/turigirls (again, do some fucking research), dsmp/vivziepop fans you’re on very thin fucking ice (excluding if we’re already friends), people who defend shit people, etc etc. also ‘endogenic’ systems fuck off

dont give much of a shit about what labels/flags you use as long as they arent harmful or anything. dont involve me in any lgbt discourse though (if i get annoyed enough i will just involve myself)

ermmm i have adhd autism bpd & did so sorry if i ever act weird at All

please only talk to me in english otherwise i will try to put them in google translate & then i will be confused

i do say the f slur & swears & i dont tag them. i also dont tag anything to do with weed idk. other drugs i do tag though

if you want me to tag anything though. feel free to ask im more than happy to (might forget it every now & then) I LOVE KING GIZZARD & INANIMATE INSANITY!!!!!! i dont really have any other interests.Sorry

airypack defender TOXIC YAOI DOES NOT EQUAL PROSHIT!!!!

diehard lonely steel sheet flyer + murder of the universe enjoyer

art sideblog is @coinybfdi but i don’t post there like ever

(userbox by @/sweetpeauserboxes)

[wearequeer-andwearehere]

hi... so... im a lesbian........ with major comphet (maybe) however... when i fantasise about being with a guy... i see myself as... a guy? like im- thats not a very cis this is it? like... when i daydream about having a girlfriend, i feel more like a girl but... when im thinking about, somewhat hypothetically, being with a guy or having a boyfriend i feel... more like a guy? like im gay for both men and women???????? is that a thing? am i just crazy? is it serious comphet?! idk

Okay holy shit we’ve got a lot to work through here so, let’s go ajdjajd and dw anon this is not an uncommon experience in the slightest and I’ll help you through it!!

To answer your question: yes! It is possible to be gay for both men and women! There are multiple people who are as well as multiple labels for this experience, so don’t worry man, you’re not alone. You’re not crazy.

Now before I go more into detail about this, let’s address this whole gender thing

Now, you know what I’m going to say already: imagining yourself as a guy is Not very cisgender of you there my friend!

Now, try thinking *why* do you see yourself as a guy dating a guy? Does it feel more comfy? Does it feel better? Now, imagine yourself as a girl dating a guy. How do you feel? And why?

Here’s a post on gender dysphoria you might wanna read, it might help you out and I recommend you read it, especially the links at the end—see if you relate to anything!

Now, you might be thinking something similar to: “but if I’m a trans guy, then I can’t be wlw or a girl, and I don’t want to give that up.” But here’s the thing: you don’t.

If you are a trans guy you can still be wlw, you can still be sapphic and date women as a woman if you want to.

Some trans guys are multigender, so you can have more than one gender! You can be a guy and a girl at the same time if you wanna. You can still have a connection to having a sapphic identity and date women as a woman.

Now, what I want you to do is take a deep breath, and disregard everything you’ve ever thought about your gender. All of it. Doesn’t matter. What terminology you use, pronouns, everything. And I’m going to ask you one question.

What makes you feel happy?

You don’t need to obsess over your gender. Stop asking yourself “what gender am I?” and ask yourself, “what makes me feel happiest and truest to myself?”

Does being a guy make you feel happy? Be a guy! Does being a girl make you feel true to yourself? Be a girl. Chase the happy feelings and things will fall into place. Happiness first, labels second.

My advice, try on the label. Say “I’m a guy, and I like guys,” see how it feels! Either it’ll fit, which is awesome, I’m so happy for you!! Or it won’t fit, which is cool too!! You’re one step closer to finding a label that does!!

See, there’s this thing called gender euphoria! Basically, it’s the happiness you feel, or euphoria, when you’re called the right name/pronouns, or perceived as the right gender! As I was saying earlier, it’s about what makes you happy.

So yeah, do what makes you happy!! Try on labels and pronouns and see what feels right, and prioritise your happiness.

The entire trans community is here for you and we love and support you, and if you are cis that’s awesome, you’ve learned more about yourself! And if you are trans there is a future of love and happiness and joy ahead of you and it is going to be okay.

Now we’ve covered the gender part, on to the attraction part

Imo I don’t think it’s comphet. Like obviously I cannot label it for you and it is possible you are not attracted to men, but if you are fantasising or daydreaming about dating guys you might want to consider that you might be bisexual, pansexual or some other mspec sexuality.

Here is a post on comphet attraction. I’d suggest reading it, see if you relate, and also talk to any lesbians you know about what comphet feels like, and if your attraction to men doesn’t feel like that, then it is possible you might be mspec and not a lesbian.

I would say again try it on and see how it feels, try saying “I like guys and girls” and see how it feels!

Now, here’s a label you might like:

Sapphillean (click for link to wiki page)

Sapphillean is a term for when one considers oneself sapphic and achillean due to being both male or masculine-aligned and female or feminine-aligned (fluidly or simultaneously), and being attracted to men and women.

They identify as MLM and WLW however, they do not identify as WLM or MLW, one only feels attraction to women as a woman and only feels attraction to men as a man. One does not feel attraction to women as a man, or attraction to men as a woman. A sapphic achillean individual may or may not be also attracted to other genders.

You might also wanna check out the label saphboy!

I hope I could help you out, and I wish you luck on your gender and sexuality journey! Lmk if you have any more questions, and have a great day/night :D

[thesolarsystemsworld]

DNI

-syscourse blogs. not willing to get into it. im anti endo and that stands

-speaking of which, endos/supporters/tulpas

-ed & sh blogs. i cant even believe i have to say this one

-i dont give a shit about queer discourse either. i dont care if youre a lesboy or mspec gay. identity is infintely complicated and i literally dont give a shit what you identify as as long as its not harmful

-maps/pedos

-anti-xenogender

-anti-agere/against the use of the word “little” for singlets (??? grow up lol)

i think thats about it just dont be too much of an ass

[honeysweetbabyfrisk]

my byf page is out of date and i cant edit it on mobile so heres a pinned post!

you can call me fen, im in my mid 20s, and i'm part of a d.i.d system (prof. dx'd). i wont really talk about that on this blog but it does mean that sometimes its running entirely on queue here because i'm just not around

inbox rules:

- all anon hate and most discoursey asks will be deleted! i want this to stay a positive space. if you have genuine questions about my stance on something and you ask respectfully thats alright, but if youre looking to debate please dm me or ask off anon so i can answer you privately or just leave me out of it

- its okay if you want to vent anonymously in my inbox but please dont send anything triggering without warning

- similarly, its fine to ask for advice but please dont send me anything triggering without warning, and respect that i'm a person with my own stuff going on so i may not answer right away or even have the answer youre looking for

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- if i reblog from you and you didnt want me to just lmk and i'll take it down

things you should know before following:

- i identify as queer and will not tag any posts as "q slur," and if i see you reblogging from me using that tag i will block you

- im a critical inclusionist, meaning if someone's identity isnt hurting anyone (not the same thing as making people uncomfortable) and has historical and/or cultural precedent to exist in context, im quite content to take them at their word in good faith and welcome them into the communities that they by all rights already belong to. an example of this would be: i have nothing against and believe mspec gays and lesbians, ace and aro people, other SAM users, and people with mogai identities and microlables when they tell me who they are, but i do not believe transabled people and believe they and their movements are harmful.

- on that, i believe quite firmly that all endogenics are either traumagenic and in denial or misinterpreting symptoms of other illnesses or experiences and do not support the endogenic community, as their impact does real world damage to d.i.d and osdd systems, what they claim is scientifically impossible, and their only history is one of ableism and causing harm. i will never fakeclaim on this blog, i do not endorse fakeclaiming, i will not answer any asks about syscourse or fakeclaiming. if you want to see my reasoning, please search "syscourse" on my blog, but that is the extent you will get from me.

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- i am physically, mentally, and cognitively disabled. i will block you if i see you being ableist in any capacity

- my cottagecore blog is purely for comforting aesthetic and nostalgia and does not inherently infer anything about my values as a person. tradfems are not welcome here. racists are not welcome here. people who think the aesthetic is about manifesting destiny or otherwise white land ownership and expansion are not welcome here. this blog explicitly supports indigenous sovreignity and land back movements. this blog is explicitly welcoming to poc, especially black and indigenous peoples.

- i follow and reblog from minors and people without listed ages. please do not reblog to kink or explicit blogs.

- i am firmly against illegal or barely-legal content of all sorts, and against narratives that glorify or romanticize abuse of all kinds, pedophilia, and incest. i also think that that does not mean no media or books featuring any of those topics should exist at all; it's very important to have those things publically condemned so people being hurt in that way know its not normal and theyre not alone. silence and taboo only aids predators

- i am very firmly against "MAPs" or whatever theyre choosing to call themselves now, zoophiles, and "consanguinamory." i do not want anyone who is not explicitly against these things anywhere near me. you are not welcome here. you will not only be blocked, but also reported.

- i am personally uncomfortable with the following blog types and will block you if you follow from one or post frequently about the following topics: pro ana/other ed, thinspo, meanspo, gore, ageplay/ddlg, entirely nsfw, discourse, callout. these catagories are subject to change.

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[joculatrixster]

i'm on a complete neutral side when it comes to seamoon. i don't mind its popularity nor its fans, hell i respect the ship because you're right! there IS a lack of w|w rep out there! to me, any w|w rep means i auto support. but i still fear how some of its shippers might attack me if i say i ship sea fairy with a different female cookie (anxiety kicking in lol). and it's also bc seamoon isn't really my cup of tea for some reason?? but that doesn't mean it's lesbophobic lol bc i have like, a ton of other w|w ships from cr (and other franchises) i personally love. it's just that seamoon, like any other ship out there, ended up becoming one of those i don't really vibe with but still respect and acknowledge it exists. but honestly, of all the ships in cr, seamoon will most likely be a canon thing sooner or later. personally, respecting heavily implied w|w ships are enough for me, tho i kinda understand how some ppl would wish for more than just acknowledgement. hope this ask isn't too much of a bother for you, i just feel like putting my thoughts here! please have a nice day or night!

oo ok so ur completely valid! actually i dont personally have a problem with ppl who ship sea or moon with other female or nonbinary cookies as long as they dont shit on seamoon.

honestly? its super fucked up to attack others for that, if u dont personally like seamoon but dont ship them with men then im chill cause like not everyone has to like it even if its canon or has the best chance to be canon! the point of protecting seamoon is because as u said the lack of wlw and the fact that media keeps queerbaiting shit like seamoon were its so obvious that the characters are gay but they dont outright state it ir make them make out on screen so other ppl can pretend they arent, if u acknowledge their lesbians and ship them with othwr women then ur fine completely!! seamoon shippers who attack others based off that r being disrespectful and using seamoon to bring down others, their the reason nonshippers think we're crazy imo, now if someone has seamoon as a comfort ship and doesn't want them separated thats fine but as long as ppl respect the wlw woth ships they can do what they want, within reason of course.

the biggest issue for us is people genuinely see moon or sea as bi or straight and i dont think they understand that while YES just because they love a women canonly doesnt mean they can't be bi or pan the issue is ppl deny the queerness is even there or call it onesided, this is coming from a person who does loath how fandom forgets ppl can like all genders but we NEED to establish the wlw before the wlm in this case because there are plenty of wlm female characters in media but only a handful of canon wlw and the fact seamoon is so obvious yet ppl ignore it means we have to be pushy and put our foot down on shipping either, ESPECIALLY sea, with men.

also ur no bother at all! giving ur insight is fine i like talkign to ppl about why certain discourse sucks and seeing new opinions, at the end of the day my opinion is this.

lesbains are constantly erased or used as sex objects in media, the fact that this kids game has 2 of its most important characters as 2 women in love is important, acknowledging their love is important because its rlly quite blantent imo and NOT SEXUALIZED, shipping either with men perpetuates that clear lesbian coding doesnt matter because girls need a man ir women loving eachotheris somehow creepy, do not do this even with bi or pan hcs do not, there are OVER A HUNDRED cookies its not thathard to make characters like princess or croissant or blackberry mspec so why do u feel the need to take away the two wlw ppl who are the most close to canon?

ppl generally forget how much lesbian eraser there is out there and seeing how some of yall treat seas love for mooncalling it onesided or creepy just because ppl cant understand what pining is id say those ppl dont actually care about representation for wlw if they find ppl wanting the HEAVY coding to be respected too annoying.

now all this being said i again want to make it clear, i dont condone harrassment, and i definitely dont candone threats of any kind, seamoon fans CAN be toxic i know, but those ppl do not devaule the center point, if ur soured on the ship cause of that thats fine ship them with other nonbinary or lesbain cookies or not ship them at all ur in the clear to do that but do NOT take that as a queue to be like fuck the lesbains and ship them with men, i do not care how much fire wants moon in his pants hes bi shes not end of story.

[enbypanposi]

idk why but I always feel weird about using the term "panphobia". Usually "-phobia" terms are reserved for people who are oppressed, and I just don't really feel oppressed as a pan person. Like, people are mean to pan people, obviously, and we get flack from within our own community, but I feel like a lot of the true oppression that other LGBTQ+ labels get kind of doesn't affect us. People don't seem to see us as a "threat" like they do with other labels like bi or gay.

So, heres the thing about this.

There are legitimate reasons to dislike using -phobia (principally, ableism) but I dont think that playing the so-called oppression olympics is one of them. Pan people do experience oppression. Its not a matter of how ‘true’ the oppression is or even how vitriolic the hate that group gets is. I think when most people use panphobia, theyre talking about people who specifically target pan people, who say things like ‘pan isnt real’ or ‘pan doesnt exist,’ etc. But panphobia also includes every other kind of hate a person who is pan would get for being LGBT, not specifically pan. What is typically considered biphobia, such as the ‘its just a phase’ or ‘pick a side’ arguments, can be directed at a pan person (or any other mspec for that matter.) I dont think it would be right to call it biphobia in that case--i mean, when a bi woman faces hate for being with a woman we dont call it lesbophobia, right? its just biphobia, so in the same way it would be panphobia. Any number of homophobic things can be thrown at pan people as well--were not immune from being called slurs or facing discrimination or, god forbid, even hate crimes. People dont back off when you tell them youre pan and not gay. I dont think its accurate to say were not oppressed. I just dont. 

Trying to distinguish between ‘true oppression,’ as you say, and not real oppression is....meaningless. Oppression has to exist either way to make the distinction. And again, I dont think the most virulent LGBT-phobes would ever back down or stop acting in an LGBT-phobic way because they discover the person theyre directing their hate towards is, say, pan and not a gay man. Quite honestly, cishets see us as a joke--they cant even accept that there are more than two genders so the idea of liking ‘all’ is funny to them because its meaningless when you dont even believe in the ‘all.’

Pan people may not be characterized in the media as predatory monsters, but a lot of that has to do with the great strides which have been made in the way all LGBT people are portrayed. We havent even seen many instances of pan people existing in media at all until a few years ago, and that in turn has to do with the fact that pan as a label was greatly popularized by the internet. So pan portrayals exist in a world which was already more forthcoming to LGBT people as a whole. Thats a good thing, but even then--pan portrayals fall flat and perpetuate harmful ideas (and usually not just about pansexuality but bisexuality too--looking at you, big mouth). 

I think if anything is at fault its the fact that the only things we attribute to panphobia are people making the argument that our label is redundant or nonexistant. Which, I will be clear, is panphobia, its just not the only panphobia. Or at least thats the only context in which this ask really makes sense to me. We are just as capable of facing violence for our identity as any other LGBT identity. Theres just as many people who think we should pick a gender and stick with it as think that about bi people. And quite honestly I think its just....hurtful to say pan people are incapable of facing any form of hate for their identity--I can guarantee that there are people following me who have faced exactly that, and Im not in the business of telling anyone what they 'actually’ went through or that it ‘wasnt real’ or ‘wasnt hurtful.’ 

I think the fact that you havent felt oppressed is great!! I sincerely hope you continue to feel safe and secure in that way. But, and forgive the meme, your experiences are not universal. I dont want to pass any judgement about you as a person, but it could be that the reason you feel that way is you have other privileges which have shielded you from that kind of experience, privileges that not everyone has. Or maybe youve just internalized the idea that your identity isnt ‘important enough’ or ‘valid enough’ to ““earn”” oppressing. But I dont know you. I would consider at least thinking about it, and maybe hearing from pan people who have faced oppression for their orientation. Sorry that this is long.

[matoitech]

@belinda-belladonna-nyx​ responding here cuz it’ll give me more room. first, its ok to not know! i dont think a lot of ppl r aware of this stuff which is why pansexual as a label is still popular in the first place (at least until ppl find out like history behind it). the only difference between bi and pan is in the label, any sexuality label thats describing 'attraction regardless of gender' like pan/omni/multi/mspec/etc r all basically just like.. created bcuz of misunderstanding that that is what bisexual means. and/or created by cis ppl who r being transphobic and treat trans/nonbinary ppl like we're a separate gender category. thats how pansexuality used to be described as a lot like when it was first gaining popularity years ago the slogan was ‘hearts not parts’ and they talked about being ‘also attracted to trans ppl' which trans people were obv like hey we’re not like a separate gender category, u don’t need a special sexuality to be attracted to trans people.. acting like trans men and trans women are a different gender from cis men and cis women is fucked up. and obviously its useless to say only ppl of certain sexualities can be attracted to/date/Be nonbinary bcuz nonbinary ppl can look like anything, nonbinary isnt a Third Gender, and nonbinary ppl can be any sexuality. so eventually a lot of them dropped that slogan and explanation for how theyre ‘different’ from bisexuality, tho that definition is still the most well known one i believe? at least its usage with cis people. cis ppl Love the idea of there being a separate sexuality for being attracted to trans ppl, it lets them off the hook for examining their transphobia and why they’re so repulsed by us. its not THEIR fault, trans ppl r just a whole gender theyre not attracted to! and it keeps cis ppl who view themselves as progressive for being attracted to trans ppl feeling morally superior bcuz theyre doing us such a service by being attracted to our gross weird bodies or whatever <- sarcasm, ofc, this is all transphobic bullshit

so the explanation for ‘how pan is different from bi’ has changed over the years bcuz ppl will describe pan like that or other made up ‘differences’ between bi and pan until ppl either say ‘thats misunderstanding other sexualities [in cases like ‘we’re the only ones with a label inclusive of trans/nonbinary ppl’ when gay, bi, and straight ppl all of course can date trans/nonbinary people and BE trans/nonbinary]’ or ‘thats biphobic’ [’pan ppl like personality but bi ppl only care about genitals’ etc which is obv gross and shitty] and they move on to another new definition for how its different but like. they’ll never find one bcuz its the same thing, the only reason ppl r trying to separate themselves from being associated with bisexuality is bcuz of biphobia and biphobic stereotypes (stereotypes that r reinforced thru ppl making shit up like this)

so if youve ever seen a lot of different statements on how pan is ‘different’ from bi (like, pan ppl dont have preferences and bi ppl do, or bisexuality is inherently sexual and pan isnt, or bi only means two genders bcuz the word bi means 2) none of those differences r rly ever actually true its just that ppl keep trying to like. try to find a defense for these labels that were created out of misunderstanding bisexuality, or created from transphobia, usually both. if that makes sense! nowadays i think a lot of pan ppl who were there for all that just say they like the word better or the flag better to keep defending using the label, but obv there used to be (and still definitely is) a lot of hostility towards bi ppl, ppl constantly telling bi ppl that we should just adopt the ‘newer better’ labels even tho those labels were created from transphobia and biphobia, and pan ppl hating being called bi ‘bcuz theyre different’ when theyre rly not and its just biphobia. so thats where the like anger comes from. ppl making things up about bisexuality to frame their label as ‘different’ or ‘more progressive’ or ‘trans inclusive’ like bisexuality isnt, and also the transphobia in a Lot of these ‘differences’. which is obv just shitting on bi and trans ppl, and often ppl of other sexualities too by acting like they cant be trans or date trans people. hope this helped n wasnt too confusing

‘bi pan solidarity’ also does literally make them sound like there ARE differences between them as sexualities and not just as labels too which isnt great! theyre the same fucking thing these r all just dif labels for the same thing, whose bright idea was this and try to pass it off as Not being biphobic

[vtori73]

CW for mentions of sexual harassment/assault:

Twitter really has become the new Tumblr huh? I only say this because I haven't really seen the discourse over bi/pan lesbians hit here. Maybe it's because I follow less people and the people I do follow don't care/or understand it's harmful rhetoric.

If anyone who follows me is against the term would you be willing to explain any valid points as to why its bad because ALL of the ones I've seen are just horribly bad or are a revival of the old "gold star lesbian" shit.

One of the main points that I've seen getting parroted and such by Lesbians is "lesbians don't like men and the term forces men onto lesbians!!!"

Now there are a couple reasons why this is an insidious point.

This talking point is spreading false info in that all bi, mspec's have to be attracted to men or otherwise they aren't bi. I thought we were past the whole "bi people are attracted to men/women" definition crap but I guess not. The Bi community overall accepts and prefers the definition of "attracted to 2 or more genders." So already just based off of this your point is not only wrong but ignorant and even at worst biphobic.

Another reason this is insidious is because this literally was a talking point that was used VERY much by terfs & terf lesbians against trans women. Who exactly is counted as a man by your criteria? Maybe you say you include trans women and non-binary individuals but what about those who do identify with man-hood/masculinity? What about those whose gender and sexuality isnt set in stone and changes? What about butch trans and enbies? Whose criteria are we exactly following and why is it okay to gatekeep in this way when it literally identical to all other gatekeeping tactics and rhetoric that's been used in the past? This stuff hurts everyone who doesn't fit neatly into a box and only benefits those who want to be palatable to Cisgender heterosexual allos.

The other reasons this point sucks ass because it's literally a victim blaming narrative. Why does the blame of predatory men lie on a label and NOT on the men??? Also... this point whether intentionally or not makes it out to seem like anyone who holds attraction to men is to blame for being harassed and assaulted by them and that is just awful especially considering Bisexual and probably any other mspec people have HIGHER rates of sexual harassment/assault then Lesbian or Gay people. So are you saying because of who we are/our sexuality we should expect it? Also that somehow a label will protect you from cis men is laughable... I bet some of the same people who are saying this now have in the past said or liked something thats complained about men still hitting on them despite the fact that they told them they were a Lesbian. Entitled men DO NOT care what your sexuality is, if they perceive you as a women then the will feel they are entitled to you.

One thing that also isn't 100% relevant is I also see Lesbians complaining about the label because they don't want outsiders invading it and "why can't we have something to ourselves." I mean... why are y'all so obsessed on the idea of sepereating y'all's community from anyone else? I don't think any other sexuality does this. Gay has LITERALLY become an umbrella term for almost anyone, Bi is an umbrella term, Trans is an umbrella term, these communities already share spaces with other identities not 100% like them so why are y'all so against sharing your space with others? What exactly makes us so different that you can't stand to share a space with bi and non-binary (that don't fit your standards) people?

This all really is just a revival of the same shit that happened back in the day, history repeats itself if you don't learn from it and this is just a great example of that.

Edit: oh shit I forgot one point but real quickly let me clarify why I said "revival of gold star lesbian rhetoric." Whether these Lesbians want to admit it or not they ARE attacking their own community with this bullshit, the one they are specifically claiming they're trying to protect who only identify as Lesbian. There are probably already Lesbians who use the label but DO feel attraction to men whether it had been once in the past or an occasional bleep in their life that they don't think it relevant and may or may not have slept with men. Do these Lesbians still get to use the label and be in the community? What if their attraction isn't due to comphet, what if they don't regret sleeping with the men they did? Do they still count now???

Either way you try to slice and dice this rhetoric, I've found none of it makes sense and only will do more harm then good.

[themadcapmathematician]

Gay people have also been with the "opposite" gender sometimes because they didn't realize they were gay yet, so not everyone who takes issue with that is doing it to bargain with homophobes (although I agree that bi representation is important). Also, you can identify as queer as you want if you're comfortable with it but some people have negative experiences with it (because it is still used as a slur) so you probably shouldn't use it as a blanket term for non straight sexualities. Thanks.

Ok, that post was about a specific situation where some straight will try to disprove a character could be gay by saying “well they were with the ‘opposite’ gender!” and people will point out they could be mspec or sometimes aspec (and remind straights that, yknow, gay and straight aren't the only games in town); there are people within the lgbtqia+ community who see this as “bargaining” or “conceeding” to homophobes. Which is straight up mspecphobia/aphobia. Whether or not a character should be headcanoned as closeted gay when theyve shown attraction to two or more genders is a MUCH messier argument that I don’t feel like getting into atm, but thats kind of not what I was talking about. I’m saying that these sexualities arent some straight-friendly gap fillers or “closer to straight” and all the other implications that saying a straight person would prefer a bisexual or ace character to a gay one entails.

Also I’m really tired of dancing around the queer issue when the greater part of the community uses queer as a (very useful, inclusive, widely acknowledged) umbrella term, but either way, I’m really only talking about queerness as it relates to people who want to identity as queer. If you don’t self identify as queer or the word makes you uncomfortable, dont interact with posts where I use it, but no one gets to tell me i cant use it to talk about my community and the issues we face, because that dips into tone-policing and respectability politics.

also, and this might just be me being petty, but I take serious issue with the fact that some people would actually prefer me use “non-straight” to refer to lgbtqia+ identities or people than the word queer, a reclaimed slur with strong activism ties and a rich community history.