#tgcf discourse

[cypherptqueer]

Normal people: Oh I love hualian alot, but huaxuan/ mulian/fenglian are quite nice and interesting as well-

Rats coming out of the sewer: HOLY FUCK YOURE EXTREMELY FUCKING STUPID, GET OUT

[lewiscarrolatemybrain]

Friendly reminder that the suffering and torment Xie Lian experienced actually made him LESS kind, and the lessons he learned as a result of that pain were that human life is meaningless and compassion is worthless and people don't deserve your help or care or love for them. Xie Lian had to backtrack and reject these new lessons in favor of the old ones he had already known in order to return to being kind.

Xie Lian losing everything he loved and knew, being stripped of his power, autonomy, safety, and community, and being ridiculed and humiliated, did not teach him anything worth knowing. He did not learn any valuable or important lessons from it. In fact, he needed to consciously decide that he wasn't going to let it change him and work to go back to the person he was before all that shit happened in order to avoid turning evil.

[mdzs-owns-my-ass-i-guess]

The reason why Jun Wu was so obsessed with modelling Xie Lian after himself was to prove himself what happened wasnt his own personal failing but the kind of thing that would happen to anyone else in order for himself to be able to make peace with his choices in this essay i will-

[miniminijiminni]

one of the things that gets lost in a lot of the discussions around tgcf is that hua cheng knows xie lian can take care of himself. xie lian knows he can take care of himself. although he's had 800 years of bad luck, that's different than not knowing how to take care of yourself. not just that, throughout the whole book, especially the flashbacks, shows how xie lian tries to shoulder all the weight of the world by himself. hua cheng just shows him that he doesn't have to do go through it alone

[goobus-boobus]

yall are not gonna believe the name of this yaoi ass supermarket

[yea-baiyi]

people on twitter are discoursing about whether xie lian’s chastity-based cultivation is a form of abuse (?????) which is so backward to me like huh???? yes jun wu’s thing about xie lian being a virgin is fucking creepy and weird and part of his overall obsession and desire to control him. but did they just completely miss the part where xie lian chose this method of cultivation bc the abstinence wasn’t an issue for him? he got hit by sex pollen and never once thought of sex? he didn’t even cultivate for 700 years and just never had sex because he never wanted to and as soon as he found a guy he wanted to fuck he just went for it? literally didn’t even pause to consider the cultivation thing at any point. if this were any other character it might have been used against him but the whole point is xie lian once again perfectly dodging jun wu’s manipulation attacks by just being a weird little guy with autism

[mxtxfanatic]

Fandom Gripes #24: Fans acting like the act of interfering in a rapidly deteriorating situation with the intention of helping makes you not only a bad person but also just as bad as (or worse than) the person/people causing the bad situation has got to stop. Blaming mxtx protags for not successfully saving the people they tried to help despite directly helping while others were either 1) actively trying to kill the people the protags were trying to help or 2) passively watching as others actively tried to kill the people the protags were trying to help is like irl when a good Samaritan saves someone’s life but then get sued later because saving said person’s life left them with injuries. Which is why we now have to have Good Samaritan Laws in America to discourage people from deciding that saving a life isn’t worth the consequences.

[poorly-drawn-mdzs]

One final cooking poll.

[nyerus]

Hi! I would love to hear your thoughts about classism in TGCF, but specifically regarding XL. It surprised me to see people hating on XL for not knowing or doing better during his teenage years of luxury as the crown prince and making XL a complete villain because he didn't take down classism and restructure society despite still being a kid himself. It struck me as odd that the fandom is well aware of his 800 years in poverty but also not really addressing the fact that XL, too, is a victim of classism albeit a little different from someone like MQ.

Hi there! So sorry it's taken me this long to get to this ask, I've just been in sort of a funk for a few days haha.

But yeah, this is definitely a topic that comes up from time to time, with lots of discussion about. It surprises me that despite that, there are still people (maybe just newer fans? idk) who still hate on Xie Lian for his naive views as a 17yo. Especially since, despite being a naive 17yo, he still really wanted to help people less fortunate than himself. He didn't quite understand how to do this in the most effective ways (because he was a teenager), so it came off as somewhat patronizing as he was a person in a position of power compared to everyone else. Yet his desire to help people was genuine, and he didn't personally think of "common folk" as being any lesser than "royalty" -- even though in this case, there kind of literally was a difference. (E.g. when Lang Ying goes from being a commoner to a king, he gets a "kingly aura" that protects him!) So it's honestly kind of incredible that Xie Lian is willing to say things like "I think people are equal, even gods and humans, and if the Heavens disagree with me, then it's the Heavens that are wrong" with his entire heart.

I imagine a large part of the hate Xie Lian gets from certain fans is jealousy or resentment, due to the fact that Xie Lian was "born privileged." But on it's own, "privilege" is not "the great enemy" -- it's what said privilege means in the context of society, and what someone does/doesn't do with it that merits judgement. Xie Lian doesn't fully understand the privilege he had until he loses it (again: because he was 17!), but he still understood it enough to use it to protect and help people. That's more than many other characters can say. Him starting out as a prince doesn't automatically disqualify him from class struggles or the horrors of poverty. It's nonsensical to think so, when this is a character who literally spent almost 800 years busking for scraps, while sleeping in dirt outside and eating garbage….

On the flip side, as you mentioned Mu Qing -- yes, he was a victim of classism. But he's a very strange figure to use as the poster boy for that, though he often is by people who are critical of Xie Lian. This may be a controversial take, despite it being something I think that makes the character of Mu Qing really interesting: but he's a very "typical" guy within the concept of classism. He's someone who started off with a bad lot, but then ended up ascending to the highest point you pretty much can in that world/society. Which is great! He did that through hard work, and it paid off! But now, since he got his "happy ending," that's kind of it for him. He doesn't do anything to materially improve the lives of those less fortunate, especially those he has no personal connection with. This doesn't make him a bad person -- it's not really his job to that, even as a god. He's a martial god, so he's there to subdue threats and all that. Yet you can clearly see, that's exactly the type of person society values because such "rags to riches" stories give legitimacy to the whole system, and because they don't rock the boat once they're on top.

So then it's odd to be angry at Xie Lian but not Mu Qing (or others) for the lack of some "grand revolution" that some readers seem to want.

Ironically, Xie Lian used what power he had to try and help people -- and he was worse off for it. If he had done nothing, he would have been able to live a happy and carefree life. He would have lived and died as a rich prince/king with no troubles. Like, that's the point! The societies we live in punish those who want to broadly help others or make meaningful change, while rewarding those who quietly play the game for themselves -- because it helps keep the wheels turning. It doesn't matter at "what end" of the spectrum you start out on, the rules apply the same way. If you go against the establishment, there's a price to be paid.

Throughout Xie Lian's long journey, he learns this lesson the hard way. And the fact that in order to change it, he would somehow have to change the hearts and minds of pretty much everyone -- which is an impossible ask. How is he even supposed to that, or restructure society as a whole, without vast amounts of collateral damage? In the end, Xie Lian discovers that he was not wrong in his desire to help people, even if he cannot help everyone. He can still help people he meets in whatever ways he can, and that is still important. To show kindness, mercy, and empathy towards your fellow man is worth it. Helping your neighbors or complete strangers you meet once and then never again -- all that is still worth it.

I wish I had the time to sit down and really talk about this in a more organized way, but these disjointed thoughts are all I can manage at the moment! I hope it was still valuable to you in some way, and thank you for sending in the ask!

(Also, I recently reblogged a post that talked about something similar if you wanna check it out, Anon. It's right under the manhua highlights I think!)

[thecrimsonrainthatseekstheflower]

Lately there's been this discussion going around about Beefleaf shippers dismissing He Xuan's fiancée, and this argument just...confuses me?

People can fall in love more than once. He Xuan might have been in love with other people before he proposed to his fiancée, we can't know. Him growing fond of Shi Qingxuan doesn't mean he's forgetting about her. 

Yes, avenging her and his blood family is his reason for not moving on. No, Beefleaf isn't canon. But after He Xuan has fulfilled that revenge, it's very obvious that Shi Qingxuan becomes his new reason for lingering. Whether that has romantic or platonic connotations is up to the reader, but either way it can't be denied that He Xuan cares about Shi Qingxuan a great deal. That does NOT mean he stopped caring about his fiancée, and I think assuming that shipping Beefleaf disregards her is doing shippers a great disservice, not to mention how it takes away depth from He Xuan as a character.

[piosplayhouse]

This might be kind of mean but I think some mdzs and tgcf-only fans need to realize that their fandom "activism" is making them look less like wei wuxian or xie lian and more like peerless cucumber

[danmei-confessions]

I find it really annoying how feng xin and mu qing not trusting hua cheng and wanting to get xie lian away from him is seen as silly or funny.

Like they absolutely have a point?? From an outside perspective everything about hua chengs obsession with xie lian is over the top and concerning (and even a little from an inside perspective ngl)

.

[maria-taiwin]

Top/bottom discourse in mlm couples is so ridiculous, especially on twitter, people talk like sex dynamics is some unfunny activism or the meme of the superior galaxy brain but you should just chill and mind your own business.

Especially you need to learn how in reality whether top or bottom is not tied to any gender shit stereotypes, these are just very personal preferences and many couples even change role.

However you can't brag to read MDZS and love wangxian because uuhh LWJ is got associated with some maiden trope and then making him a top is a synonymous of huge superior brain, and then making stupid discourse over how is bad that Xie Lian is over feminized (?) because he's the bottom. You know you are talking about characters from the same author, right? It's really dumb this fight about what trope is progressive over a fucking sex dynamic. It's 2023 folks.

I don't think MXTX would be proud to read such old stereotypes about femininity and how the dignity of her characters depend on random bed positions.

Sure, analysis over masculinity/femininity and gender roles in fiction are always interesting, and I too love how WangXian take both male and fem elements along the story but without being tied to just one personality trait. I really like to discuss it. But why this is a matter of praise only in mdzs fandom (mmmh half of it honestly, hypocrisy is high there too) and then everytime I interact with TGCF fandom I read misogynyst bullshit against Xie Lian and how he's a shou stereotype just because he's shorter, tiny, called a princess etc.?

Active your brain and stop relying your beliefs over old unrealistic 2000s porn magazines 🤷‍♀️

Top/bottom roles depend just on how you seek pleasure in bed, that's it, it's not a standard over morality, dignity, strenght, and sure it doesn't depend over height difference or physical appearance or either gender.

Both Xie Lian and Lan Wangji are amazing and complex characters and this doesn't change over who is the top or the bottom. Sure you can prefer one over another, but if you tell stupid misogynyst (plus homophobic) bullshit then don't cry if I call you out about this 🙃

[amenokage]

My HOLY TRINITY of MXTX animatics has to be the wrecking ball liushen animatic by @orogenese , the wangxian bathtub scene animatic by wenwen, and the love like you hualian animatic by melts. If you know of others, please share them! I want to know others' favourites. Spread the love!

[confusedgoldenflower]

Maybe this is ridiculous notion or ‘gatekeeping’… but why can’t ace characters just, like, be ace? Like canonically ace characters (screaming between-the-lines info counts).

Why can’t they just exist in fannon as ace characters.

I get whole “heuheu I like this pairing and want them to fuck,” but how about we handle the whole ace spec part, yeah?

Ace characters deserve the same respect as het, homo and bi characters.

Plssssss let’s not diss their sexualities bc we wanna see them fuck someone

[imu-chan]

Mu Qing, someone who has been steamrolling his deepest emotions for nearly a millennia, tormented by a class system in which he has been labeled as fundamentally untrustworthy, someone whose every mildly positive intention has been twisted into malevolence due to his personality, and whose literal actual name means ‘one who yearns for affection’: alright let’s help dianxia in disguise, what’s one more mask to wear, what’s one more attempted good deed that will ultimately blow up in my face

Xie Lian, a prince of an extremely extravagant and ludicrously wealthy kingdom, who didn’t recognize Mu Qing as a deity (or even a person lmao) and not a servant: *legit takes every opportunity to throw shade at Mu Qing and badmouth him to his face, and then later reveals he ‘knew’ Fu Yao was Mu Qing all along* yeah duh of course I knew it was him, his name is ‘one who rises above their station’, plus we grew up together lmao of COURSE I’d recognize him (: