#stuck in flashpoint

[backtothestart02]

Stuck in Flashpoint - 1/? | westallen fanfiction

A/N: Inspired by a WA fancam on twitter. Future chaps will be longer, I promise.

...

Synopsis: 3x01 - Canon Divergent - Rewriting the timeline was supposed to put everything back to the way it was, not tear Iris from it completely.

...

Chapter 1 -

“Will I know when things change back? Will I feel it?”

“It’ll be like it never happened.”

Iris wished that had been the truth.

She wished more than anything that since the moment she kissed the man she’d come to know in only two days, she could start fresh with him in the timeline she truly belonged in. She wanted to be the girl who’d stolen his heart years ago, who had so much history with him, who was his best friend and love of his life, and not just a mirror image he felt drawn to for exactly those reasons.

As much as she feared losing her life here in the timeline she knew, to save Wally’s life? To keep the city from imploding? Of course everything had to go back to the way it was when Barry Allen left it.

But life wasn’t simply different when the man hellbent on destroying Barry’s life ran off with him to change the past, to make things right, to keep the world in stasis.

Because Iris was still standing the same place she’d been before, still alone, but now full of memories that didn’t feel like her own, a lifetime of memories.

There was meeting little Barry on the playground when they were eight.

And having playdates at each other’s houses for the next few years following.

There was him coming home with her dad the night his mother was murdered.

She heard her younger self whisper for him to follow her up the stairs, to take her hand, that it would be alright, that she believed him. His father wasn’t responsible. How could he be? It was impossible.

Then birthdays and Christmases and tantrums and almost love confessions through high school and college and adulthood after that.

And…Eddie? Eddie Thawne? She dated him. She loved him.

But she also secretly loved Barry. How could she not? She’d loved him from the moment they met.

And then Eddie died, believing his girlfriend was in love with her best friend, though she denied it. And Barry moved on - or seem to have had.

But they came together. She saved him, Barry, the Flash, from the speed force, from an experiment gone wrong.

And she said it. After his world fell apart, and he couldn’t help but seek to change it.

“I love you, Barry.”

Her eyes flashed open, breathing heavily, a tear trickling down her cheek.

“Barry.”

Pain ripped through her, and she fell to her knees, the cement bruising her skin before her sweater covered it. She felt a wave, a ripple, as if time itself was cracking above and around her. She felt exhaustion, such heavy complete exhaustion she could hardly breathe.

But she remembered. She remembered everything.

And now Barry was gone.

He was gone.

…

Seeing Wally alive and well through the front window had been enough for Barry to put aside the existence of Reverse Flash again and run into the West house to hug Iris’ brother. He was so happy to see both him and Joe that he neglected to remember what Thawne had told him moments earlier.

And he blurted, “Where’s Iris?”

The cold and incredulous looks delivered by both West men chilled him to the bone.

Joe excused himself with a bit of a snarl, and Wally delivered the lecture of the century, despite him supposedly having lost his father more recently than was the truth.

“Iris is dead,” Wally finally said. “Zoom killed her.”

And his entire world shattered.

[sandwichhour-too]

We've found it.... The ladies' book club...

[sodafrog13]

ALICE IS DEAD 2024 REMAKE??? HELLOOOOOOOOO

[axaki]

it's a shame that vista laptop is only a 32 bit... if i had a 64 bit i could've installed that extended kernal and been able to get discord on that bad boy. imagine that

[puppetmaster13u]

Got an Idea based off of our Reblogs of @radiance1 Danny Reincarnates as a Clone Prompt.

But. What if, it's in Flashpoint timeline. Now you might say, but wait, isn't that timeline destroyed? Actually there was a continuity where it didn't, and we got to see more of Batman Thomas Wayne. But that's not what I'm getting at Because more importantly? At least for this? Kal is stuck in a lab under Metropolis, treated as an experiment and specimen. Like literally known as Subject 1. He's been there since the ship crashed as a baby, never ended up with the Kents, has never seen the sun or anything. He's kept in a room with red sun lights and is visibly Not Healthy. So why not add in clones to this?

Now does Danny know why he reincarnated? No. He doesn't really remember. What he does know? Is that he's physically baby. And he thinks he might be sick?

He's not to sure what's happening at first, vision not the best while he adjusts to suddenly being aware and able to move. But he recognizes labs. He recognizes cold halls and is understandably upset.

He sees himself in the glass- a tiny toddler with black hair and inhumanely blue eyes wrapped in a blanket that feels scratchy against his skin. Then he's in a room- more akin to a box with a wall cot- too big for him- a desk, and toiletries. And then there's a face peering down at him, gaunt face of a teenager- maybe young adult- looking starved, the same inhumane blue eyes wide in near awe and perhaps a hint of panic as they let out a raspy chuff.

What the fuck kind of place is he at...?

[puppetwoman17]

I can’t remember who initially said the idea of the RoE being a multiverseal center but this is based off that

The RoE (depending on how it’s portrayed) switches from existing at the center of the Universe or outside it, so I went “universe is doughnut shaped” theory and said it’s both and that it’s also the only RoE in the multiverse. Which means that sometimes Billy runs into other versions of himself and just kinda got used to it.

It’s a dumb idea but Billy running into alternate versions of himself or universe hopping out of boredom or for the guaranteed adventure through the door room of the RoE.

Possibility for humor with the wackier Captain Marvels and universes, fun adventure, and the typical angst of him not seeing some versions of himself around the RoE after a while

Uh, no, this is NOT a dumb idea😍! I’ve thought about this too!

After all, it seems odd that there could be multiple RoEs. For importance purposes there has to be only one.

Anyway, the whole “Billy meeting other versions of himself(and probably his siblings too) definitely keeps my gears turning. I’m imaging that he started out seeing a lot of other Marvels/Shazams when he first got his powers. The Rock was full of kids running through different rooms, getting magic tools, reading or hanging in the cafe, complaining about their adult team members, etc. All of them grew close because they all shared the same burden.

But as the years go by, something changes. Some Billys come through their doors less and less. And when they do, the stress is written all over them. I’m ofc referring to the Billys of Injustice, Flashpoint, DCAMU, etc.

It’s a slow process, but at some point, they realize that some of them have stopped coming all together. The rock gets quiet. There are no more loud parties in the cafe. The thrones were pushed aside to make room for blankets and pillows because there were too many of them for just seven thrones. No one site there anymore.

Everyone’s too scared to reach out, stuck in their own worlds, their own problems. It’s no wonder that no one notices when their numbers start to dwindle.

The thing is, Billy can feel when something happens to his counterparts. He’s sensitive to it thanks to his position. He feels he laser eyes and the cut throat and the leg being torn off of him. He feels it all.

He goes to the rock one day and it dawns on him how quiet it’s become. Obviously he’s not the only one left, but they just don’t talk anymore. The hero life has taken its toll and the kids are scared of having any fun. Now when one billy sees another, they just walk on.

The doors to the other worlds are sealed off, as no one wants to see their own dead body. When a new Billy arrives, they steer clear, not knowing what end this one will meet.

Okay I’m gonna end the angst here cause this made me depressed😅

[chainsawcorazon]

timcassie grieffucking bc of kon’s death really highlighted how fucked up the core four’s dynamic got, and why they couldn’t be salvaged towards the end. how else do you prove how atrociously codependent and toxic they’d become to each other? they shouldn’t have even gotten that far into their personal grief, but they did bc they couldn’t be normal about anything, not after graduation day. kon shoulda healed from his shit out on the farm. cassie shoulda moved on. tim might have saved himself so much grief, but they couldn’t bc they became stuck to each other in the worst possible way. titans era yj is so bitter it doesn’t even leave room for hope. they went the worst possible direction for a bunch of traumatized, closeted fags, and tbh, flashpoint saved em. won’t even bring up bart bc he was being character assassinated. kfl was an honorable ending for a man who constantly got dishonored just for daring to exist as a mark waid creation. geoff, didio, you’re never seeing heaven

[distort-opia]

It's strange how differently people from different culture react to famous characters. Even outside of batjokes shippers, I have seen a lot of DC fans of my country just straight up telling that joker loves batman and batman's obsessed with joker. Or just thinking that's he's gay, cuz like, you have a hot Blondie but you only thinking of batman? Well buddy I have something to tell ya. But it doesn't have the same reaction from people from USA, at least the one that aren't from batjokes fandom? Like, they seemed to get offended when someone point out joker obsession with batman and how it would be read this thing they two had....

How do you think people from your country read theses two? Because it was a kind of shock to me see a lot o straight man fans of DC just accepting that, welp, Joker definitely not straight and batman is... 🤨 suspicious for not killing him already. I guess its because the film with heath ledger is very famous here, and the line where he said that batman complete him stuck.

This is a really interesting question, trying to look at it from a cultural standpoint... I definitely heard of or encountered people entirely lacking knowledge of comics, readily agreeing that there's something more to Batman and Joker's relationship. As you say, just with tangential contact with Nolan's The Dark Knight or maybe the Arkham games.

However, I think that no matter where we're from, there's a distinction of three groups, with their own relevant factors, which explain their attitudes (at least to me). There's people who aren't into Batman or superheroes, but who obviously heard of them or maybe saw one movie or two. Then there's casual fans: people who like Batman and maybe watched the movies, maybe liked The Batman Animated Series, maybe played the games-- but you won't find them on Reddit or Tumblr or Tiktok as super active in fandom, just because it's not their main thing. And then there's hardcore fans, people who write and read fanfic, people who post on different platforms about Batman characters, the ones who consistently engage in fandom. But I'm putting the rest under the cut since I got long (with unnecessary psychological analysis, lol).

This is of course simply my personal opinion, based on what I've observed over time. A couple of factors might influence how these groups view Batjokes, though the first two I'm mentioning are a bit more likely to be found within non-fans and casual fans. A non-fan homophobic/conservative individual is still likely to reject actual canon of Joker professing romantic love to Batman or of Batman having to deny more than once he's in love with the guy-- although I guess you could hit them with straight Batjokes, hah (Thomas and Martha Wayne of Flashpoint). Leaving this type of person aside though (which you're more likely to find in some countries compared to others), I think non-fans usually easily agree to a romantic side of Batjokes, or at the very least to the existence of obsession. Just based on the tangential knowledge they have, it's obvious these two characters come as a pair and are defined by the other, so it doesn't take much to convince them. But within casual fans and hardcore fans... and here I'd add someone who's male, homophobic or conservative... well, we start to encounter one big thing about Batman that this kind of individual cannot get over-- projection.

For many men, Batman represents the ubermasculine ideal. He's handsome, at the peak of physical fitness, rich, has the coolest car and gadgets, has got women begging to sleep with him. He's cold and controlling and bad at social skills but still somehow beloved by all. Bruce Wayne has got terminal Main Character Syndrome, and it's undeniable a lot of fans consider him the epitome of the Alpha Male. So if you're gonna bring up that he's gay for the Joker... no matter how much proof you throw at them, they'll employ any and all mental gymnastics to shut you down or prove you wrong. That's not even getting into the guys who project on Joker, and who see Joker as this incredibly cool "agent of chaos" and strive to emulate that; trying to get them to admit Joker has been written as queer for decades (with multiple writers admitting to it) is another exercise in futility. They'll tell you Joker only said he loves Batman to scare him! He flirts with men to throw them off! It's all a tactic... because of course, being gay can only be scary to someone as masculine as Batman. It's the decades-old problem of queer-coded villains which I won't get into. But my point here is that fans who project onto either Batman or Joker specifically for how "Alpha" they are, are not likely to be open to Batjokes interpretations, no matter their nationality. But of course, just as with non-fans, there are plenty of casual or hardcore fans who are perfectly fine with shipping or potential homoerotic connotations. Hell, many times you might get them to go down Batjokes rabbit holes by letting them know about comic or game adaptations. They'll easily recognize the classical enemies-to-lovers trope this ship embodies.

But then again, both within casual and hardcore fans (though it's much more often the case of the latter) you'll have people who have no issue with shipping, who follow comics, who read fics etc. But to whom Batjokes is anathema, because they're too invested in a different way: not in the characters, but rather in showing how Good and Moral they are to other fans, and how they ship only the Good ships. It's the hordes of antis you see on Twitter and sometimes here on Tumblr too: the purity police kind of fan. "How can you ship Bruce with the monster who killed his son?" or "Joker paralyzed Barbara, how can you--" but it's entirely hypocritical and mostly rooted in the current trend of hating Joker. There's plenty of DC villains who have done similar things to Joker, or harmed the Family in similar ways to Joker, but he's the scapegoat right now for multiple reasons I talked about before (Joker fatigue and DC writing him like shit, the pushback from seeing all the alpha male dudebro fans latch onto him and hating that, etc.).

I got way too long, lol. But basically I think these generalized types of fan behavior can appear no matter the nationality, though there's undoubtedly a higher frequency of one or the other in different countries. Frankly, Romania is intensely religious and conservative, so in my country... even among my younger peers it's likely I'd encounter homophobic stances. And purity policing and that way of thinking is more likely to happen among fans from the US, like you pointed out.

[qulans6ri]

Ik people tend to joke about Tim being eternally seventeen,like for example Damian has aged in the last four years in the comixs while Tim is stuck in 16-20 cycle but, so have the rest of young justice.

Sure,Bart’s age is due to the speedster thingy and flashpoint etc etc and he kind isnt really affected by the forever 17 thing because age is just,generally weird for speedsters but some of the characters still have aged,look at Jon and Kon for example,same thing as Tim and Damian😭

Not to mention Cassie too like??

Which is why young justice probably angered some witch and now theyre eternally stuck in the college years ranging from 16 to 20,but never older than 20… imagine the comedy of damian growing older than tim but also the tragedy of them outliving their loved ones

or never fully experiencing joys of aging lol

[flashfuture]

The flashes have:

• weird found family that is a mix of a found family and blood family and most of them actually truly get along and care about each other even if some of them are little sassy.

• have powers where the upper echelon of their brood, with the most power are verging on multiverse and time gods and the ones just starting out still range on the side of most destructive meta humans on earth, if they are still human at all.

• their most interesting villains are crime syndicate with a amazing dental and medical plan who usually have something approaching morals.

I think they make other heroes only a little jelly beans cause they have all these boons and they are still interesting as characters to watch.

like it's actually so crazy if you think about it. in 1938 the DC universe time began. but the way time works in DC it's easier to think of time as the addition of every second. it's static not accumulative. 1 second 1 second 1 second 1 second and on to eternity. A life is made up of seconds coming together 1 2 3 4 5 6. But this didn't happen not for 18 years. Until 1956 when Barry Allen was struck by lightning in both canon and out of universe. Things started moving Forward

(The Flash: Rebirth)

And he made the speed force. He keeps the present in the present and the rest of time away by generating the kinetic force that makes the lightning that gives the Flashes their speed.

Barry canonically moves Time forward by existing but he can also force it. He did so twice once fighting reverse flash/zoom and once fighting the turtle. When fighting Turtle, Barry connected himself to every living being except Turtle and pulled them all into the future by a few seconds to thwart his Turtley plans.

And Wally well I have a theory that Wally stores the memories the moments added together that make a life. In 1986 Barry reset the universe and everyone's minds got Fucked. Before Final Crisis when they bring back Wally from the speedforce it causes Bruce and Hal to remember Barry and incorrectly assume he's the one coming back. In 2011 when Flashpoint happened Barry did it Without Wally. Wally who was in the speedforce and got stuck again and once again everyone's backstories reset and their memories were fucked. In 2016 when Wally breaks out he returns memories to people. With Infinite Frontier this is the first universe reset where Wally's speed force is actively contributing to what happens and not only do people retain their current memories they start getting All their old memories back.

Reverse Flash represented paradoxes in time. But in the most recent run Barry phases through him giving him some speed force. And Eobard gets reset to how he should have been. Becoming connected to Barry fixes his Present. That kinetic wall between the present and time.

Bart I have no idea what they're doing with him they should be remembering that he's the best Fighter of the flashes. That he's vicious and blitzes enemies like Godspeed. Also how Bart is the most scatter brained and seemingly can not slow down unlike his grandpa and cousin. Yet he also is the only one of the entire family to be able to retain what he's learned forever. And has I think the greatest feats of cosmic awareness basically teaching himself about the meta of the DC universes reboots. Bart I think should represent the inevitability of the future coming. No matter how many changes you think you can make a future will always be there. Something to be said for him being a character created during Zero Hour year too I'm sure of it.

[butmakeitgayblog]

Based on what you said about how you think the end of the pike blockade would go down, how do you think Lexa would react to Clarke being injured/nearly killed by Pike?

Bear with me here because I'm sure there's a lot of people who thin it would go down differently lol

But to be honest, I think a lot more would happen than just a Pike vs Clarke showdown of sorts. I think in the scenario that I gave - Pike ultimately losing his shit and going after Clarke for "treason" - that would force the entirety of the remaining Skaikru to really face themselves and the future of who they want to be as a clan/a people.

Bluntly, I think it would cause a flashpoint civil war.

By that point enough people would fed up with the living conditions under the blockade, fed up with Pike and his guard's power plays, fed up with constantly being pitted against each other exactly as they had been in space and every day since reaching the ground. Every day is fear, every moment is struggle. Because now not only are they expelled from the coalition AND the lands around them AND confined to yet another prison with limited resources and freedoms just as they were in space, but they're also being told point blank 'even if you wish to leave and start over outside of us, you can't. You're stuck here whether you like it or not.'

And pair that up with what Clarke has done to help them (despite their, whew, overwhelming tendency to blame her for goddamn everything 😒), I think enough people would just be so fucking done with it that it would indeed evolve into the chaos of a civil war.

And I think the first pop of gunfire would have Lexa and her army throwing themselves into the action. Not because is Lexa is terrified (tho she is) and not because Lexa would do something as foolhardy as throw herself into a gunfight if she thought Clarke were in danger (ha ok lesbian we've seen that play out 😐). But rather because, this has been the inevitable outcome all along. Pike was always going to make sure of that.

I don't think it'd be a popular decision. I don't even think Lexa would outright command her army to fight. But with her warriors already hungry for battle, what I believe Lexa would do is present the situation as a choice to follow her into the fray or not. Simply put: to show allegiance to the coalition or not. I think she'd remind them that despite the blockade, Skaikru is still one of the coalition's clans. That, just as she had promised, those who were still loyal to her sovereignty and the 12 clans had been working from the inside to unseat the rebel murderers - the same ones who had cut down their own fellow in arms. That the already growing number of Skaikru prisoners of war/refugees were a testament to that struggle and the will of the people trapped under an unjust, tyrant leader, and how they were proof of those machinations currently at play beyond the walls of Arkadia. The proof that they had allies inside.

But also, such as with most any uprising and revolts against injustice, more often than not in this gruesome world, blood must be spilled. And that this moment was their time to collect what is due. In the name of their fallen brothers and sisters. In the name of the coalition, and everything they stand for.

(Basically an emotion filled and lowkey manipulative call to arms 👀)

So between the coalition loyalists and those simply hungry for 'blood must have blood' payment for those they'd lost to Skaikru and Pike, a fair descent amount of warriors would join the fight to besiege Arkadia. Between the might of the coalition breaching their gates and the war raging inside among each other, Pike and his supporters who haven't defected themselves would be divided and spread too thin to cover all their sides, and eventually they'd fall one by one. Until surrender wasn't even a choice. It was a forgone conclusion.

And it would be very bloody, and very quick.

Ultimately, I don't think Clarke would necessarily have needed Lexa to intervene per se, because it would surprisingly(?) still be Octavia who kills Pike. In this she wouldn't be killing him as revenge for Lincoln (well not entirely, he's not dead, just locked up and treated like shit), but rather to set in motion Skaikru's final symbolic fall to the ground. Because in that moment, with Pike's gun pressed to Clarke's head, still desperate and deluded that he can use her pull as leverage to grasp at control even as the sounds of war rage on around them, I think Octavia would realize that was the moment when she had to choose where her allegiance lies: earth or sky. Past or future. Coalition or chaos. Clarke or Pike (and by proxy, Bellamy).

And she'd choose Clarke.

And Lincoln. And Indra. And the anger for what her her brother had become. And her hatred of being boxed in yet again. And the realization that without Pike's death, there would be no moving forward to truly build a new life on the ground.

So with Pike dead, and the Skaikru ~rebels~ rounded up, and the 13th clan surrendering to the coalition, it would be a quite a politically messy situation to tidy up. To say the least. But after Lexa issues orders for the remaining Skaikru to be tended to by healers, and brought food and water (and maybe a lil booze from the encampments to help them wind down) in good faith of their loyalty and return to the coalition, Lexa would nonchalantly escort Clarke back her personal tent (that she had failed to mention in her notes) at the frontline... and do everything she could to not fall to absolute pieces as she personally tended to Clarke's wounds.

But oh. Oh, Clarke would feel the way her entire body was shaking...

[wavesoutbeingtossed]

OK, I had a fleeting thought about the TTPD announcement then lost it and now I think I remember what it was, so bear with me.

Disclaimer: I don’t actually think this is what the intro is alluding to! I think the poem is a direct reference to the actual songs on the TTPD! Or at least its themes. But, it’s stuck in my head and you all know I love to write about her albums so here we are.

The introduction to the album has us all gagged, right? The opening salvo of what is going to be a gut punch of a tale:

For some reason last night, my brain likened these lines to the relationship’s corresponding albums.

And so I enter into evidence

The thesis statement: She’s looking back on her own words, a reflection of her lived experience, what she shared and what she didn’t. She is submitting the case files for consideration:

My tarnished coat of arms

Reputation: an album about the how the world turned against her, but she found a love that felt safe and warm amidst the storm. Her very identity was put into question and she had to relearn what mattered to her. Yet, as we’ve since gleaned, that growth also seemed to be part of what ultimately doomed the relationship, and caused immeasurable heartbreak in the process.

My muses, acquired like bruises

Lover: His presence and their love inspired some of her most vulnerable love songs, where she put her own anxieties, fears and hopes in the spotlight, opening herself up to a degree that reached new heights in her music and her life. But those same vulnerabilities also left her open to greater hurt, especially if those same things may have been used as a flashpoint for conflict.

*To be clear: I think there actual muses she’s referring to on the album are multiple; I kind of get the feeling that it’s going to be about her body of work, that it may not just be about an individual or individuals but a whole host of “muses” that have inspired and hurt her, but… That doesn’t fit into this post lol.

My talismans and charms

Folklore and Evermore: Using the “magic” of fiction or esoteric stories to process feelings she may have been experiencing, or to deal with difficult situations she felt like she couldn’t share, did not want to, or maybe did not realize were as severe as she now knows they were in hindsight.

(Talismans and charms both being objects believed to hold magical properties to protect against evil/bring good fortune)

In other words, using the two pandemic albums to stave off difficult choices/realizations, escaping into this alternate reality (the cabin in the woods, as it were). Putting a magic spell over them for a time to “protect” them from the world turning upside down, perhaps by the way she pulled him into her world for a little bit too. But also as it turns out protecting herself from what might have been happening in front of her in the fallout. Using her music as a lifeline for herself, but also in some ways for them. Because the music is always going to be the way forward.

The tick, tick, tick of love bombs

Midnights: A survey of difficult sleepless nights throughout her life, and the aftermath of the things that kept her up at night. As we’ve all talked about, it feels pretty likely that the reason these ideas felt so salient to her was because she was processing similar feelings about her current relationship. It may have felt like there was a metaphorical clock ticking about the fate of the relationship, counting down to a now-inevitable explosion.

(Also interesting: all the clock imagery in the Midnights artwork and promotion.)

The wordplay of the bomb-ticking with love-bombing is both genius and distressing and may be its own post once TTPD is released because the implications are… uncomfortable to say the least. It’s very, “now you’re running down the hallway, you know what they all say, you don’t know what you’ve got until it’s gone.” There’s the clock running to the end of the relationship, but it could also be a reference to coming to expect a profuse display of love after every conflict or instance of hurt, implying a cycle of dysfunction, whether in the past or present.

My veins of pitch black ink

The Tortured Poets Department: It’s not just an allusion to being metaphorically dead, blood turning dark once the heart has stopped beating (like the end of the relationship); her heart has gone cold. It’s more pointedly a reference to the words spilling out of her, the way writing is a lifeline. (Which she has said herself many times, but specifically about the promotion of TTPD on tour.) The songs on this album are swirling through her veins, and this bloodletting is a lifesaving act for her.

All’s fair in love and poetry

It’s the summation of the files she’s produced as evidence. She’s laying bare the good, the bad and the ugly throughout these chapters, and with the submission of TTPD, the final one, the jury can reach its final conclusion. (As will the relationship.)

The Chairman of the Tortured Poets Department has defended her thesis in six parts; it’s up to the board to do the rest.

(Can you tell I’m obsessed with this poem and I can’t wait to see how it ties in to the actual album?)

[gorogues]

1. What’s the most accurate/canon depiction of The Rogues relationship with each other for both pre-New 52 and post-New 52 comics? (eg what Mark is to Lisa and vice versa, what Digger is to Sam and vice versa, Len and Mick, etc until you’re done listing how everyone’s relationship with everyone else is like)

You can add others (Owen, Axel, Evan, etc) if you want, but this question is mostly aimed at the main Rogues.

2. I swear I saw a post from someone on this platform, I don’t know if it was you or somebody else, but they basically said something along the lines of: “You’d think that it would be out of character for Barry to leave his villains in Iron Heights, knowing how unethical the prison is and all. But the more I thought about it, the more I agreed that no, it isn’t actually that out of character for Barry.”

That thought has been stuck in my head ever since, and as someone who doesn’t really know Barry’s characterisation all that much (a crying shame, I know), I just wanted your opinion.

Is this statement true? I’d like to hear your reasoning for if you agree or disagree.

I didn’t know if I should keep these two questions on separate asks or not, so I just combined them both onto one. Hope you don’t mind all that much. I know it will probably take awhile to answer my questions, if you decide you want to that is. If you do then no pressure, take as much time as you want. If you decide you won’t answer, that’s also completely fine with me. Either way, hope your happy and safe wherever you are and have a good day/night.

Buckle up, because this is a long ride. To start, I'm leaving out stuff like when a Rogue was mind-controlled into doing something, or when they weren't in control of their actions due to being puppeted by Neron or Nekron (although the Black Lanterns were speaking from their victims' memories and thus may have had relevant things to say. It wasn't that person committing evil acts, however). That stuff wasn't voluntary, though of course the people harmed by them during those periods might not see it that way.

--Pre-Flashpoint--

Lisa and Len: Their relationship has varied depending on the era. In the Bronze Age they were often indifferent and sometimes hostile to each other (she didn't seem upset about Len's purported death), but occasionally got along well. After Crisis they frequently worked together and were generally friendly, but tensions built and things turned bad -- originally, Lisa was intended to have murdered her brother for his cold gun, but that was nixed in favour of her just stealing it. By the Johns era she was dead and Len was overtly mourning her, and we'd see in retconned flashbacks that they were very close due to their shared traumatic upbringing. One flashback showed her saying she'd become a criminal to be like her big brother, although Bronze Age comics were quite clear that she did it to avenge her dead boyfriend.

Lisa and Mark: They didn't interact much (just a few issues), but she poisoned him in one story to get him to do her bidding. It doesn't seem like they were close.

Lisa and Digger: Again, they didn't interact much, but she poisoned him in one story to get him to do her bidding. After she died, the tabloids claimed that she and Digger had a secret love-child -- which wasn't true -- but maybe they had more interactions that we never saw. Or maybe the tabloids just assumed Lisa was the mother because she was the only female Rogue in those days.

Lisa and Sam: They never interacted with each other back in the day, but in a later retcon Lisa wanted to be introduced to him because he was "cute".

Lisa and Roscoe: They were dating, and were very close. Eventually death separated them several times and they didn't get back together for unknown reasons.

Lisa and Mick: She and Len once tried to kill Mick in the Bronze Age, but he doesn't seem to have held a grudge; the three of them got along fine after Crisis, and they worked and socialized together. In the Johns era we saw an early flashback of Mick being exceptionally rude to Len about Lisa, so maybe their early relations weren't always great.

Lisa and Hartley: They only appeared in a few stories together, and in one (Blue Devil #30) they didn't interact much but seemed friendly. In DC Retro-Active: The Flash: 1980s they got along quite well, and seemed to get along when the heroes were rescuing Wally from the Turtle Man. Overall they were civil and friendly with each other.

Lisa and James: They co-existed well enough at Len's party, but she later poisoned him to get him to do her bidding. And the relationship between James and the Rogues (including her) was rather sour in Blue Devil. They seemed terse with each other at best.

Len and Mark: Len's been kind and supportive to Mark over the years, especially since taking over the team's dad role, but interestingly he didn't list Mark amongst the Rogues he liked. (There was also a panel in which Len listed Mark amongst three Rogues who were his "real family", but that was right after saying he was glad Lisa was dead -- it was from Johns' first arc and he quickly retconned his own work). Mark seems to like him, and trusted him enough to confess to Clyde's killing. The two had a good relationship of mutual support in Rogues' Revenge, which was probably the best they've ever had and the closest they've been.

Len and Digger: In Len's spotlight issue, he claimed Digger was one of the few Rogues he liked. They did get along well, including working together outside of the Rogues/Central City, though Len didn't treat Digger very kindly near the end of his life. Len was also cool-to-hostile to him after he returned from the dead and wanted to rejoin the Rogues, and actually beat the shit out of him (admittedly Digger had just done something stupid). That said, Len wistfully said "what are friends for, eh, Digger?" when Digger was dead and told Owen that Digger "was one of…my friends", so it seems Len always did retain a soft spot for him even despite his growling. He was probably taking a tough-love approach, even if he was a jerk about it.

Len and Sam: They got along fine before Sam was killed, and even liked each other enough to work together outside of the Rogues/Central City. They didn't seem close or anything, but Sam was one of the few Rogues Len said he liked in his spotlight issue.

Len and Roscoe: They seemed to get along okay or were mostly indifferent to each other before Roscoe died, but after his death Len made it very clear he didn't miss him (although interestingly, Len seemed sad at his funeral). This may be because Roscoe had recently tried to kill the other Rogues if they messed with his plan after he'd died (which they did), but the fact that Roscoe dated Len's sister surely didn't help. By the Johns era the two of them hated each other, and Len opted not to treat Roscoe like he did most Rogues -- leaving him to languish in prison and not helping him when he clearly needed it. Things eventually devolved to Roscoe threatening to mind-control the other Rogues to make them fall in line, and Len killed him. Afterwards, we learned that at some point in earlier history Len had turned the other Rogues against Roscoe to become the group's leader, but unfortunately we don't know the details of what happened.

Len and Mick: A very complicated relationship, which goes from friendly to openly hostile and back again…sometimes within the same issue. Mick said he got along with all the Rogues but Len, which is basically true, and Len was a major reason Mick spent long periods estranged from the Rogues. In the Bronze Age, Len (and Lisa) tried to kill Mick, and previously Len had tried to traumatize Mick by manipulating him into killing an innocent person. Len's been openly insulting to Mick at times, who'd then retaliate in kind, but Len has also been supportive and helpful with Mick's many psychological issues. Sometimes Len watched out for his well-being in ways nobody else did. The end result is a complicated and not very healthy frenemy relationship between them, though they generally work well together with their complementary tech.

Len and Hartley: They seemed to get along okay until Hartley reformed (though there was a flashback to Len being callous to him in the early days), but Len's been low-key hostile to him ever since. There must be an underlying reason for it, because Len didn't really treat other reformed Rogues that way (even if he wasn't always thrilled with them) and I think he just doesn't like Hartley.

Len and James: In Len's spotlight issue, he said James was one of the few Rogues he liked. Which is interesting because I've never seen a particular bond between the two of them, but Len did accept James back quite readily after a long period of reform (which even involved fighting against the Rogues as part of the FBI). James doesn't seem to have much fondness for Len though, and has cheerfully tricked and pranked him a few times.

Mark and Sam: They seem to have gotten along okay, though they didn't interact much.

Mark and Digger: They were generally quite friendly to each other, though Mark didn't have the nicest things to say about Digger after he'd died. The Rogues can be like that with each other, however, so it might not really mean anything.

Mark and Mick: They didn't interact much but got along well when they were on the same side. However, the two of them have frequently been on opposing sides (or at least one was reformed and one wasn't), so there may have been ongoing tension between them from the time of Mick's first stint with reform. But things were fine between them when Mick rejoined the Rogues after that, so it seems like there was no lingering grudge.

Mark and Roscoe: They didn't interact much but seemed to get along okay. In Blackest Night, Roscoe's zombie (which wasn't actually him, but had his memories) spoke flatteringly to Mark and reminded him that at some unspecified point they'd once planned to take out Len and run the Rogues together, which was a bombshell never addressed again. They probably would have turned on each other if the plan ever came to fruition, but there was either mutual respect or some intended backstabbing going on there.

Mark and Hartley: They seemed to get along reasonably well back in the day, though many Rogues were frosty to Hartley after he reformed and Mark was probably no different. Hartley didn't seem as though he had fond feelings for Mark after reforming, as he was pretty apathetic when he saw Mark distressed in Iron Heights and potentially exposed to a lethal virus, and Hartley was as cold to the Rogues when he 'returned' undercover as they were to him. It's not clear whether Hartley knew Mark was part of the Rogues who'd killed his parents and framed him for it, or if he'd even blame Mark for that since Mark wasn't directly involved in the scheme. But it's fair to say that they didn't get along well from at least the Johns era until Flashpoint.

Mark and James: They got along well before Crisis, and socialized in a friendly manner up into the Waid era. But things had probably changed by the time James joined the FBI, in which he was working to take down the Rogues (including Mark). James rejoined the Rogues in the aftermath of Rogue War and interacted civilly with them, though he was openly contemptuous of their behaviour in Countdown and we later learned that he was there undercover. I think it's likely James didn't have particularly warm feelings for Mark or most of the others, and perhaps there was just too much bad blood before James was killed and the universe soon rebooted.

Roscoe and Mick: They didn't interact much but seemed to get along okay; they looked cheery when chatting during a flashback in Mick's spotlight issue. However, Mick's narration stated that he got along with Roscoe even though Roscoe talked over everyone's heads, so it seems probable that Mick tolerated him more than liked him.

Roscoe and Digger: They got along well before Crisis, but haven't been shown interacting since. Both have done personality 180s since Crisis, and I can't imagine either of their newer personalities would like or even tolerate the other, so they probably wouldn't get along and likely avoided each other. Roscoe did attend Digger's funeral, though.

Roscoe and James: In the Silver/Bronze Ages they never actually interacted with each other on panel, though they must have met behind the scenes because James was at Roscoe's funeral and complained about his sense of humour. (We've also seen a flashback of them together from a comic published later.) And James spoke dismissively of him after his death, calling him the least of the Rogues. It's difficult to say what their relationship was, though James clearly wasn't impressed by him, and probably wasn't thrilled with Roscoe when his mind-whammy was undone…and Roscoe died soon after, so they never spoke again before the universe was rebooted. It doesn't seem to have been a good relationship, but we've seen so little of their interactions.

Roscoe and Hartley: They seemed to get along okay before Roscoe died, but things took an ugly turn after he'd returned and Hartley had reformed. Roscoe tried to goad Hartley into killing a presidential candidate and then tried to frame him for it, and did so by being a homophobic asshole to him and Hartley understandably thought he was a monster. My opinion, based on what Roscoe said in the issue, is that he was trying to seriously rile up Hartley to accomplish his plan and might not have actually believed the stuff he said…but it doesn't change that he said and did it, and was in fact acting like a monster. What's interesting is that later (in the Johns era) Hartley was lamenting having no living family left, and Roscoe told him "You still have family. Me for one." Which was probably cold comfort and Hartley wouldn't agree, but it's still very interesting that Roscoe would say that.

Roscoe and Sam: Roscoe was generally quite friendly to Sam, but Sam tricked him into losing a million dollar bet and left him to die in a booby-trapped prison, so Roscoe resentfully helped Barry ruin Sam's plan. Roscoe secretly swore to get payback, but never seems to have acted on it and Sam screwed him over again by later stealing his loot. For whatever reason, Sam was the Rogue that Roscoe chose to inform of his death, though he also had a scheme to blow up the Rogues if they messed with his revenge plan (which they did). They had a weird relationship, but I think Roscoe liked Sam more than the other Rogues.

Sam and Digger: They were generally great pals, despite some hiccups here and there -- Digger was a dick to Sam in Gotham and then tried to hypnotize him into doing his dirty work. Sam was pissed enough that he tried to get a cop to shoot Digger dead. But otherwise they got along quite well and worked/socialized together even outside the Rogues and Central City, and after Sam died his costume and tech ended up in Digger's hands and he used them to commit incognito crimes. The other Rogues were furious (not knowing who was doing it), but Digger thought Sam would appreciate the joke, and he was probably right.

Sam and James: They mostly got along okay, although Sam robbed James of his loot once, and all the Rogues of the late Bronze Age tended to snarl at each other for some reason.

Sam and Hartley: Their relationship didn't seem particularly notable until Hartley was hospitalized for a nervous breakdown, and then Sam and Digger went in disguise to free him. Both were somewhat dismissive of Hartley, claiming he wasn't a great pal or anything, but the Rogues sometimes do that to downplay their feelings (perhaps to seem like tough guys?) and they went to a fair bit of effort to spring someone they didn't really care about. They obviously cared.

Sam and Mick: They seemed to get along well before Mick had a traumatic experience and left the Rogues. We don't know what Sam thought about Mick's reform.

Digger and James: They generally got along in a friendly jocular manner before Crisis, though one time Digger disapproved of James trying to unmask an apparently-deceased Flash and kicked him for it…they ended up squabbling and yelling at each other. After Crisis, Digger turned his back and suggested that the Rogues should let James fall to his death. Later, after Digger had been away from the Rogues a long time and James had reformed, Digger repeatedly begged him for money and James completely cut him off, calling him a "mooch". So perhaps relations soured after their time apart.

Digger and Hartley: As noted above, Digger and Sam went to some trouble to free Hartley from lock-up. That aside, they didn't have a good relationship; Digger criticized Hartley's battle tactics and Hartley thought poorly of Digger's intelligence even before Crisis, and we know that Digger made a lot of shitty comments/jokes about Hartley's sexuality. And Digger was openly hostile when he saw Hartley at Linda Park's funeral. Post-Crisis' Digger's personality is obnoxious enough that he'd definitely get on Hartley's nerves (and vice versa, to be honest), so it's no surprise they don't get along.

Digger and Mick: They seemed to get along well, though as noted above Mick could get along with almost everyone. Digger may not have appreciated Mick's stints of reform, but he still accepted the situation when Mick sometimes returned to hang out with the guys, so maybe it didn't even bother him. And Mick was willing to lend him money (likely knowing he wouldn't get it back) after James cut him off, with a bit of gentle chiding about getting his shit together. They appear to have had a good relationship.

James and Hartley: Best friends, at least when they're being written properly; we'll leave Countdown out of this because we all know how OOC it was. James was friendly with Hartley when they were both Rogues (it's not known whether he knew Hartley's sexuality then, but he might have), and he accepted Hartley once Hart had reformed and become a pariah to the Rogues and was openly gay. Later Hartley was accused of murdering his parents and James refused to help him when he was on the lam, but it's very possible that was due to the general mind control James was under, so it's debatable whether that was really his fault. Ditto for James basically press-ganging Hartley and Mick into the FBI. Either way, all those shenanigans aside, they're very good friends who like, accept, and trust each other. James also left his will and data for taking down the Rogues to Hartley, and told him that the information was hidden from everyone else by invisible ink.

James and Mick: They've never seemed particularly close, but later in life developed the commonality of reform or semi-reform and both are quite easy to get along with. As stated above, James drafted Mick and Hartley into the FBI and that may not have been their choice, but James was supportive of Mick's mental health and ensured he received plenty of psychological support…which was definitely necessary. He also encouraged Mick to train and remain physically healthy, so overall he was very considerate of his needs and well-being. They weren't close after the two of them went back to the Rogues, but that may have been because Mick sincerely wanted to return and James was (apparently) undercover. Overall they had a friendly and supportive relationship, despite some occasional bumps.

Hartley and Mick: Their relationship before Crisis wasn't particularly notable one way or another, but in the Johns era they were firm friends and allies during a time when most of the Rogues neither liked nor accepted Hartley. Hartley was a fugitive at the time, and Mick was the only person willing to help him with no questions asked. They later worked well together at the FBI, but weren't close when Mick rejoined the Rogues.

--Post-Flashpoint--

Digger and all other Rogues: Only Digger and Len have had significant interactions, and that story inexplicably depicted them as not knowing each other. However, a later issue showed Len offering Digger a place with the Rogues via text message.

Roscoe and all other Rogues: He's only interacted with them in passing, although Len tried to kill him again so it seems their relationship hasn't improved :>

James and all the other Rogues: He's only interacted with them in passing (aside from Axel), and he mind-controlled them into doing his bidding so there's probably no love between them and him. A past version of him also worked on the Legion of Zoom with the Snarts, but they were cool towards each other.

Lisa and Len: For a while she blamed and hated him for giving the Rogues metahuman powers, which left her seriously injured/ill and her boyfriend trapped in the Mirrorverse, but those problems are over now and the two are fairly close despite occasional differences. She opposed his regime during "Year of the Villain", but still cared about his safety and his conscience, and she broke him out of custody after his defeat. For his part, Len made a lot of mistakes during the New 52 and was selfish at times, but he went to great lengths to keep her safe and healthy during her illness.

Lisa and Sam: They almost got married and were very close through many struggles, but eventually broke up and she's been cool towards him since. He reacted by becoming a sullen hedonist, and their breakup is probably a big part of why he's not been with the Rogues for a while.

Lisa and Marco: He admired and respected her and wanted her to be team leader before seemingly falling back towards Len's leadership. They treat each other with mutual respect, though he put her life at risk in Rogues Rebellion when he'd had enough of the ongoing shenanigans. He later returned to do the right thing and help her and the others.

Lisa and Mick: He's frequently been surly towards her as he is with everyone else, but clearly cares about her and treats her with about as much respect as he has for anyone.

Lisa and Hartley: The first time they interacted on panel, Lisa got revenge on him for being a "traitor", but later that was forgotten and he went to a fair bit of trouble to keep her safe from danger. His narration stated that she'd supported him and helped him come out to the other Rogues before the New 52 began, indicating that they'd been good friends, so I don't know if they ever reconciled the 'traitor' thing or he simply let it go.

Len and Sam: They had/have something of an uneasy relationship because Sam was dating Len's sister, and Len was responsible for tearing them apart and nearly getting her killed…and after getting through all that, Lisa and Sam broke up and left Len somewhat in the middle. But Len has much better relations with Sam than he had with Roscoe before Flashpoint, and they mostly treat each other with friendliness and respect. But there's obviously anger and tension at times too.

Len and Mick: An extremely hostile relationship throughout most of the New 52, though Mick calmed down somewhat in Rebirth. All the meta Rogues were angry at Len, but Mick took it to another level of resentment and bitter violence. That's mostly behind them now, but Mick's still somewhat surly and it's probably a legacy of what happened to him. Len, on the other hand, didn't really take much responsibility for what he did to the other Rogues who weren't Lisa, and it's not surprising his relationship with Mick wasn't good. However, when the Sage Force was sorting out Mick's trauma it (or his mind) conjured up 'Len' to talk sense to him and calm him down, and by "Year of the Villain" Mick proclaimed that Len was his best friend, so obviously the situation significantly improved over time.

Len and Marco: They formerly had a terse relationship due to resentment about metahuman powers, though they seem to be on good terms now that it's behind them. Marco can be moody though, so that's probably a challenge at times.

Len and Hartley: They haven't interacted much, though Hartley saved Len from dying in an accident and Len seemed happy to see him -- but he also wanted Hartley to let him go, so maybe he was just buttering him up. Hartley was working as a hero at the time, so he wouldn't budge even for old times' sake.

Marco and Sam: Their relations have ranged from friendly to antagonistic during times of stress, but overall they treat each other with respect and have a brotherly relationship. They seem like actual friends.

Marco and Mick: Mick's intense anger issues and Marco's brooding moodiness was kind of a match made in hell and probably why they've never been close. They seem to get along okay now that Mick has mellowed a lot.

Marco and Hartley: They haven't interacted much.

Mick and Hartley: They haven't interacted much.

Mick and Sam: Mick was surly to everyone for most of the New 52, though his relationship with Sam in Rogues Rebellion was surprisingly positive and friendly. Sam tried to talk sense and the brotherhood of Rogues to Mick, who mostly dismissed him but still sacrificed himself to save the others, showing that Sam had gotten through to him. Mick later turned up alive, and was afterwards restored psychologically and physically by the Sage Force, which calmed him down significantly. But Sam turned into a jerk after he broke up with Lisa, and Mick yelled at him for it and finally got through to him somewhat, indicating that both of them listen to the other and are the better for it. Their relationship has never been warm and fuzzy, but it seems like there's enough respect to get the other guy to be better, and for both to accept advice.

Sam and Hartley: They were friendly during their interactions, which makes sense because Hartley was helping to save Lisa.

Question 2: I swear I saw a post from someone on this platform, I don’t know if it was you or somebody else, but they basically said something along the lines of: “You’d think that it would be out of character for Barry to leave his villains in Iron Heights, knowing how unethical the prison is and all. But the more I thought about it, the more I agreed that no, it isn’t actually that out of character for Barry.” That thought has been stuck in my head ever since, and as someone who doesn’t really know Barry’s characterisation all that much (a crying shame, I know), I just wanted your opinion. Is this statement true? I’d like to hear your reasoning for if you agree or disagree.

This is a bit of a tricky question, because Iron Heights was introduced and got most of its panel time when Barry was dead, so he wasn't around for the 'heyday' of its development when Ashley Zolomon and Wally West grappled with what was going on inside. We don't know what his position would have been before Flashpoint, though I don't think he would have liked it. Classic Barry was very much a law and order type (a cop, obviously), but that was in the days when prison brutality generally wasn't addressed in comics. We do know he was horrified by what was done to Clive Yorkin, which was an experimental and arguably cruel treatment of a prisoner.

But there's no question that Iron Heights has been around since Barry came back, that there's been abuse shown on-panel since then, and he hasn't really done anything about it. He was shocked by what happened to Axel in solitary and seemed like he was going to rescue him, but that just kind of petered out and it was Kristen Kramer and David Singh who did the work to stop Wolfe. I do think that's out of character….to a point. There's no question he's a cop and someone who follows the rules more often than, say, Wally. But that can also work both ways, and overt cruelty and harsh punishment isn't following the rule of law either. I think Barry wouldn't lose sleep if Wolfe took away prisoners' material comforts and privileges, even if we think that's wrong, but IMO he should find a beaten prisoner or a prisoner with his prosthetic arm removed unacceptable and take action. He's a person who has shown mercy towards reformed and even completely unrepentant villains before, and he's not perfect, but nobody is.

TL;DR I don't agree with how Barry's Iron Heights plot was handled.

[inamindfarfaraway]

I present to you a Batman AU timeline wherein Selina Kyle is the richest person in Gotham City and its first vigilante, protecting it with her expanded, somewhat rearranged Catfamily. Bruce Wayne is a master thief and self-made socialite. But this is not a basic one-to-one swap! I have tried very hard to do every character justice while adapting the parts of comics canon I accept (basically the post-Crisis/pre-Flashpoint universe plus Duke), which is why it’s ridiculously detailed. There are 60 PAGES.

Featuring:

Selina and Maggie Kyle, Leslie Thompkins, Holly Robinson, Barbara Gordon, Helena Bertinelli, Stephanie Brown, Cassandra Cain and Kitrina Falcone being main characters.

Characters who age consistently, despite how little comics continuity wants to conform to the real progression time. I will make it make sense -

Characters who are allowed to be happy and romantically committed, and have meaningful development addressing their flaws and traumas in coherent narrative arcs. Their growth is not always linear, but never just undone. The Cats make healthier choices than the canon Bats make at times, like going to therapy, due to their different contexts and relationships, so there’s overall less angst and self-destructiveness. But they’re still incredibly traumatised and frequently messy about it.

Female characters who are written with respect, complex interiority and agency.

Deep, nuanced relationships, foil dynamics (familial, platonic and romantic) and vigilante philosophy.

New costume designs and codenames.

Emotional support cats for everyone with a Greek mythology naming theme.

Maggie doing cool, important stuff as a civilian and not being fridged and stuck in a mental hospital for years.

Holly being a superhero.

Babs becoming Oracle and staying that way.

Villains dying or reforming and staying that way.

More of Holly and Karon being a lesbian couple. And Brucelina, Dickbabs, Timsteph, Timbern and Harlivy.

Harvey Dent, Two-Face and Talia al Ghul being sympathetic, three-dimensional antivillains/antiheroes with genuine love for people.

And more! I don’t expect anyone to read this in one sitting, but if any of the above interests you, please give it a try. Then you can make my day by telling me what you think! Comments, questions, analysis and fanart are very welcome.

I’ve also made a Discord server:

[puppetmaster13u]

Okay, please forgive me @phoenixcatch7 but I have been stuck in a Flashpoint mood for the last week or so and had an idea for a Possessed Doll or Meat Marionette au, if I could get your thoughts. Or blessing since the Doll Au is yours lol.

So like, in Flashpoint timeline, right? The timeline where Bruce was the one to die instead of his parents and Martha became joker, all that.

No idea if I am making sense in my rambles but like, imagine if Thomas was the one with the puppet-body. But he can feel how it's not meant for him, where everything feels like agony because he's not supposed to be the one inside. Where the dolls know how the timeline is supposed to be, it knows this is not its puppeteer, its host. But Bruce no longer exists in this time, there is no Host, no proper body and mind practically raised to be its user.

So they both have to deal with it. And it's agonizing, like trying to jam a puzzle piece in a place it doesn't quite fit. Eventually something will break.

[gabbynyssa]

Okay, so while I do loathe the tendency of DC to become completely centered around just the Bats and Kryptonians; I do love when a strong dynamic between two of them is formed and becomes a core part of how fans view the characters. Not just shipping, but that too.

Like... We have the classic chums, Bruce and Clark, constantly steeped in homoromantic tension, regardless of how little DC want to admit it, but also from that closeness we got Nightwing: a hero raised by Batman but more interested in being a part of his "uncle" Superman's legacy.

Then, when Kal-El's estranged cousin and Batman's commissioner friend's daughter meet, Supergirl and Batgirl form a recurring duo that for awhile was just as shippable if not more so than Clark and Bruce. (And tbh it's kinda a shame that we rarely see Kara and Babs hanging out during Oracle storylines)

And after the deaths of Jason Todd and Superman, two unlikely teens stepped in to try to fill those roles before either could pull their rendition of a phoenix rising from the ashes: Tim Drake and Kon-El: the Robin that found Batman and the clone that would be Superman. Both struggling with who they wanted to be and who they were expected to be at birth, but united by that with a team of similar young people that wanted to just be themselves. (And possibly the most shippable duo in the whole lineup)

Later into their lives, both heroes found themselves with sons. One by choice, the other by circumstances out of his control. These sons were Jon Kent and Damian Wayne: the first naturally born half-Kryptonian/half-human eager to get into the heroing whist his parents desperately try to make sure he gets to just be a kid, and an assassin trained from birth that chose his father's kinder mantle over his grandfather's castle built on bones. Both stuck between halves and initially stuck together because of who their parents were. Despite their differences, or possibly because of them, they each found the other to be a kindred spirit, and grew to be inseparable friends with so much potential between them that their respective families basically dread the two of them without supervision. (Tho arguably they were more primed to work well together than Damian would like to admit, as Dick Grayson, then former Nightwing, had been the Batman to his Robin and his surrogate father figure for much more of his early hero days than Bruce had.)

And then, after many a death, rebirth, reboot and retcon, we find two cast-off members of these families... Jason Todd: an anomaly caused by a fracturing multiverse, his past even more a patchwork after that multiverse rebooted and then again when his found family of Outlaws regained their previous timeline friends and memories; and the third Bizarro of post-Flashpoint Earth One: fated to follow in some of the footsteps of Bizarro No. 1(the third Bizarro pre-Flashpoint) but cast aside for not being the same as the second Bizarro of his own timeline, who sacrificed himself to save it. Brought together thru meddling by Lex Luthor along with Artemis, an Amazon who'd also been uprooted from her past's continuity, they became like family; Jason and Artemis helping Bizarro to find who he wanted to be for himself and all finding some semblance of peace in a world that accepted none of them with open arms.

(Yes, I could get into Diana, Donna and Cassie's wonderful dynamics with their respective Bats and Kryptonians, but they're not as integral to the meeting and dynamics of the others, and the WW family isn't as frustratingly all consuming of the DC comic lineups)