#specifically roman history

[tretaaysel]

Yeesssss Nat Geo

Give me that docuseries on ancient rome

u know the shit I like 👀

[prolibytherium]

Just in general I think trying to look to pre-late modern period history for validation of LGBT+ identities is an absolutely useless venture. Every single underlying human experience defined through the lens and framework of LGBT identity has always existed, but it's impossible to pin down Exactly who and what a figure might have been if they existed in this contemporary context and decided to self identify via these labels.

It's also a wildly reductive lens that flattens the complexity and variety of how sex and gender has been constructed across time in different cultures, how sexual norms have varied, etc. This is not a constructive approach to learn about history and you're never going to be able to fit historical figures neatly into little identity categories.

[starcurtain]

You know, one thing I haven't seen any Ratiorine fans take advantage of is that Aventurine is very specifically inspired by the Turkish Romani population, while Ratio clearly has Greek/Roman influence--both countries with long and often complicated histories with Turkey.

Everyone craving those sci-fi AUs, but where are my historical AUs at?

Where are all the "We come from rival nations but still found each other!" Romeo and Juliet-level dramas???

Where are all my period pieces with the fall of the Byzantine Empire for background flavor???

Where are all my "I am but a traveling scholar," "You're more like a fish out of water, friend!" strangers-to-lovers riding off into the desert sunset stories???

Come on, help a girl out!

[sforzesco]

I got. thoughts. about valens and voices in imperial roman history. but I also got a lot of thoughts about uhhhhhh choosing your brother for co ruling the Fratricide Foundation Story Empire. many thoughts about themistius' oration too

Brotherly Love, Themistius (trans. Peter Heather & David Moncur)

⭐ places I’m at! bsky / pixiv / pillowfort /cohost / cara.app / insta

[argonavta]

Greco-Roman curse doll

2nd century CE

[ndostairlyrium]

grey hair, fluff, and murrine 🔮

[taviokapudding]

Simon's joke of "soup of theseus" is so damn good & way more layered than most people think.

Okay so first- what is the ship of Theseus?

So amongst his many misadventures and legends the ship of theseus was a ship the Athenians believed connected them to the divine living person that was Theseus. The thing is, he was maybe Poseidon's adopted kid/the King if Athen's son and probably not real (or at least if he did his misadventures were super exaggerated as royals = divity stories are) but the fate the Athenians had for him & Apollo (the 6 labors is a fun legend that explains their connection and what the original ship may have been) was so intense, they would constantly give maintence as a form of religious worship to said ship on the island of Delos (where Apollo's most sacred sancutary is) every year it would dock to pay respects.

Btw we don't need to know the specifics of Theseus but he did infamously slay a minotar and Finn did have a good exchange with the Mannish Man to get the enchiridion aka the book that sets Betty & Simon on the paths they are on now so that's neat af

So if you've ever heard about the ship of Theseus being paradox- it comes from the critique that's always existed about that ship's maintenance & religious practices tldr if you are constantly replacing each rotted and borken part of a ship, is it still the same ship?

The soup is a paradox like the ship

That paradox exists in many many scifi and adventure stories like the Nier series & Ghost in the Shell but in this instance we got to first look at the joke literally. Farm world's Finn's wife's soup is the same as the ship. The original soup farm world HW made no longer exists on a technicality, but the way Finn and his kids continue to add on and consume the soup is exactly like the Athenians. It's about the intent of carrying on the memory and keeping the soup around to honor the dead rather than the soup's original recipe {which also is incredibly sad & imples that farmworld Finn is both coping and never learned the original soup recipe}. It's a beautiful way to honor their dead mom/wife and it makes you wonder if that Finn did die if his kids will continue the practice.

But the paradox goes beyond the soup & into our reality

A lot of people have noticed that Fionna's last name is Campbell and Campbells is a real soup brand that would've been around before the great mushroom war. When Marceline gets sick as a kid, Simon goes great lenghts to get her chicken soup- that only worked out because the primordial version of the Mother Gum assisting {which is extreme Bubbeline foreshadowing}. And in that scene the can low key is a campbell design. But what if I told you there's more?

In Cheers, the tv show Simon is seen constantly watching and referencing throughout the original run of Adventure Time & in the recent Fionna and Cake had Carla Tortelli work at a Canpbell's Factory.

Neat references aside the soup ends the moment the main trio hit the remote button and I have a BA in psychology & interest in childrens media and entertainment that I want to milk for once. Metaphorical intention is beyond relevant episode specifics but actually the foundation of Fionna and Cake when it comes to the paradox.

Simon making the soup of Theseus joke is the main problem Fionna and Cake has to address

If Simon can summon his & Prismo's au from his head without proper MMS (Magic, Madness, and Sadness) where does Simon the human start and Ice King end?

As viewers who grew up alongside the series, the majority of 25+ watchers are finding Simon, older Finn, and Fionna painfully relatable because good fucking god we are all traumatized because of the ongoing pandemic.

If you want to focus on the main topic you can skip this part. But if you want to get very serious for a minute, please stay. The majority of people wont to accept what I just said about the pandemic being ongoing because global governments pretending the pandemic is over, the rise of depression and escapism in real time at a social level at a global level but especially in the US where the series is being made, and the daily interactions we have with most people refusing to mask up {with a violent reaction} when there still isn't a cure for COVID has created the perfect enviroment for most people to not accept change or crave extreme change. Fionna and Cake tackles these 2 very common forms of how depression tends to manifest when it's not fully manic to be displayed through Simon (self isolation from poor coping due to loss, detachment from society, dwelling on the past to the point it effects social interactions, extreme forms of religious practice, etc.) and Fionna/Finn (pretending everything is fine, avoidance, going through the bare minimum motions to survive, escapsim and dream of grandure, not caring about sel preservation, no/lack of self control with sweets/coffee, etc.). And I've noted there's a subset of AT viewers who don't relate or find the depections too real to the point they're upset the show's tone isn't as light hearted as AT. The thing is when a global disabling event happens, unless you were under 10 when it happened and even then it's a 50/50 because you probably did lose or know somebody who did die these last several years, you will have some kind of trauma response to it whether you like it or not. Hell, some of you unknowlingly have a gap in your memory about 2020 specifically due to inconsistent sleep schedules that have nothing to do with the shrinking of the brain mass COVID causes that we all call "brain fog" and now that I pointed it out you're probably going to go stare at a wall for 5 mins {sorry btw, doubly if you have long COVID and this is how you found out what brain fog partially is}. As someone who's been dealing with depression since I was a child, it's okay to be not okay given the last several years and doubly if you've been conscious long enough to see the US freefall into fascism too {which I hope encourages those who weren't aware that's been happening to go look into that because we can't get into it right now}. Because I unfortunately know what manic depression can look like - if you find yourself relating to Simon a little too much during ep 3, please talk to somebody who is licensed and trained to do so {not me, I haven't done suicide prevention work since 2017 and am not licensed- I genuienly won't be enough of a resource} okay? Don't throw away yourself nor change yourself for others only. You need to work to accept the past, move on to live in the present, and change yourself for yourself. It won't be easy and resources are out there to not do it alone, alright?

Becuase of how paradoxial and fluid mental health (espeically undiagnosed depression) can be and how AT has it's own version with MMS, could Simon have unconscious MMS still because of Betty's with without a battery but can't tap into it because of his mental state? And could Ice King as we once knew him even be considered a proper person Simon could return too?

The original wish of why Ice King's appearance & abilities is the way it is IS because of Evergreen's impression on Gunter {Evergreen was one of the ice elementals of the past btw- go watch the original Adventure Time for that context}. So Ice King isn't even an original character, just the crown building off the wishes and manifestations of each bearer by emulating a warped version of Evergreen. And that's the main reason why I speculate Ice Thing aka Gunter the Penguin is chill af to the point he got married and can exist with less gems. His wish didn't build off of power to protect Marceline (Simon) nor the power to copy Evergreen (Original Gunter).

As the main trio jump from connected universe to connected universe, more Simons and crowns will appear that are even more removed from our Ooo's crown and it's version of Ice King or Ice Prince or Winter King will only manifest because of the prior and current wishes made. So if Simon does get a crown that isn't the Ooo crown, will the Ice King that once existed even be THE Ice King he wants to be? And will Simon want to be Ice King or an Ice King when the trio do return to his Ooo?

The crown and it's many versions is a paradox that can only be resolved if Simon and Fionna can work together but also set aside their depression to address what they both really want and what that wish's intention will do to themselves and those around them. In short, shit's deep

I applaud the team for Fionna and Cake for tackling such a layered problem and I'm excited to see how Simon's soup of emotions, Fionna's growth, & magic crown of Theseus is addressed.

[navree]

How do you think Augustus felt about Livia?

It's a bit hard to parse out how the man felt about anyone, just because he controlled his image so tightly that nobody ever publicly saw anything he didn't want them to see, save for some very rare exceptions (ex: Augustus is recorded as having become publicly emotional three times in his entire public life, and two out of those three were very likely deliberate performances meant to engender a specific response, though one of them was definitely just spontaneous emotion). And with the added caveat that trying to ascribe feelings to historical figures can be very tough because those involve private thoughts that we are just not historically privy to, especially during the Antiquity where we're just missing so many records, I think it's fair to say that there was some kind of love there.

There's a lot of misconceptions around their relationship because Augustus and Livia just have very negative public reputations (Augustus just due to the popularity of Antony and Cleopatra as a couple, which means that most stories of this time are about them, slotting him into the role of antagonist or even outright villain in contrast to them as protagonists; Livia due to the popularity of stories like I, Claudius, which painted her as a scheming manipulator and burgeoned outward from there) that sees them both as people who didn't care about anyone, let alone possibly each other, and were in this relationship purely for opportunism and power. That's not to say that they didn't care about the power or opportunities the match would have afforded both of them, they clearly did; I've never bought into the legend that Octavian fell in love with Livia at first sight because nothing I've read about the guy, Mr. "hasten slowly" himself, shows someone who made snap judgments without thought. Octavian had prestige from his relationship to Caesar, and his family was influential in their Roman suburb, but he didn't have the patrician family roots that Livia did, and marrying her would have given him additional prestige to really solidify power. For Livia's part, her family was on the downward spiral after having repeatedly been on the wrong side in recent wars (her father fought for Brutus and Cassius, her first husband routinely was opposed to Augustus not just at Philippi but also during Fulvia's War and my beloved Siege of Perusia as well as siding with Sextus Pompey when he opposed Octavian), and allying herself instead with someone who was shoring up massive amounts of power and influence in his own right would have been hugely beneficial for her and her children. There was absolutely a calculus that went into this relationship and in figuring out what both parties could bring to the table to make the marriage viable against some not great optics, like Livia already being pregnant by her first husband and Octavian getting ready to break his alliance to Sextus by divorcing Scribonia (literally on the day she gave birth to Julia, my man you couldn't have waited a day?).

But I don't think that means that there wasn't any feeling there. For one, again, there were some bad optics involved as well as changes in alliances, and Livia definitely needed Octavian more than he needed her; he could have absolutely found some other patrician woman to boost up his pedigree by association rather than one from a family that had constantly opposed him. I wouldn't be shocked if there had been some emotion behind choosing Livia specifically, that when they met (sources say she was personally introduced to him before they decided to get married, so they had at least one chance for rapport) they formed a connection of some kind and an appreciation for each other. We also know that Octavian, as he grew in power and especially once things steadied in Rome and he got his name changed to Augustus, still relied on her as a source of advice and listened to her as a counselor, in spite of her gender and the extreme patriarchal nature of Rome. Augustus, when it comes to Livia's role as an advisor to him, actually had Livia occupying a space very similar to the one he had originally occupied for Julius Caesar: not just being an advisor and a trusted someone at their side, but also someone you could ask to intercede for you with The Great Man either on your behalf or on the behalf of someone you cared about. That Augustus allowed this at all shows a care for her, because he was big on the rigid societal structures and propriety of Ancient Rome, what with all his family laws and his strong stance on morality. But I do think the strongest indicator of love between them, since I do believe there was a love between them, is in the fact that they stayed married.

Livia and Augustus were married for 51 years, from 39 BC until he died in AD 14. And it is honestly wild that, in all that time, they never got divorced. Divorce in Ancient Roman times was exceptionally easy. Literally all was required was that one of the parties move out of the house and that's it, you're considered divorced legally and religiously in all ways that mattered. That's why, when you read about these people, you see how often they're just getting divorced right and left at the slightest provocation, Augustus included, divorcing Claudia and Scribonia with relative ease. But not Livia, even though the marriage wasn't doing the one thing most political marriages really need to be doing: bringing in children. Livia and Augustus never had any children, and only ever one pregnancy, which ended in a stillbirth. Given that Augustus specifically really needed an acceptable heir, as he was trying to build a hereditary autocracy that relied on power being passed down from father to son, rather than the semi-democracy Rome had at the time, this is a big deal. We know that Augustus struggled with heirs, mostly because everyone he ever wanted as an heir kept dying before him (which has to suck, just on a personal level, given that a lot of these were family members that he'd been close to and viewed as his own children, sorry man), and he probably would have very much liked to have a natural son to prepare to succeed him, rather than bouncing around. And given how quickly it became apparent that his marriage to Livia was not going to give him any children at all, let alone any sons, he could have easily divorced her with just a few words and found someone else, especially after he cemented his power following Actium and patrician prestige was no longer as important as his own personal presence. But he didn't do that. For a man who always thought ahead and always made decisions based on how they would advance the goals he felt he needed to have, irregardless of personal feeling (the existence of the Second Triumvirate is basically proof that Augustus, very quickly in his political career, developed a habit of shunting his own personal feelings to the side for the sake of doing what needed to be done), choosing to stay in a marriage that wasn't really offering him anything beyond the companionship of a woman he loved is very weird. It speaks to the amount and the depth of feeling there, that he decided to remove political calculation and opportunism from his thought process and decide to stay in a marriage that wasn't necessarily advantageous, because he wanted to, because he cared about and loved the person he was married to.

All in all, I think he cared about her, probably did love her, and even if there was some opportunism in the match, it seems to have been a marriage between two people who enjoyed being together and liked each other.

[bijoumikhawal]

RE: cultural appropriation primarily being about an economic state of affairs where white people make money off of other people, a related idea I've been contemplating but haven't been able to like. Finish writing about is the idea of cultural decontextualization, which is when a cultural majority (often but not always white people) engage with another culture in a manner that erases- and may simultaneously replicate- racist histories, and is more about creating false narratives than economics.

A personal example would be white people making clothes based off of Coptic Egyptian artifacts, especially while generically referring to them as "Roman" or arguing Coptic art does not exist, which denies Copts part of Coptic history while resurrecting the French Coptomania of the 1920s, and specifically Albert Gayet's actions of taking items from Coptic graves to the point where a model was dressed in a tunic and shown off (which is also terrible from an artifact preservation perspective- this tunic would've been at minimum, 1300 years old at the time).

[wander-yet-wonder]

How I started my day excited for the Tumblr holiday

[dougielombax]

The quote “Then perish.” Goes hard, I’m sure.

But there’s just something that goes even harder if you replace it with a blunt “Then fall, Caesar.”

*NO THIS ISN’T ABOUT THE IDES OF MARCH*

“Then fall, Caesar.”

*HE STABS HIM*

[saguaroooo]

Me: *sits quietly waiting for someone to ask a question about a random subject I'm weirdly informed about*

[theunsleepinghimbo]

i'm actually gonna go on record as a historian and say, on the subject of "why is every man i know always thinking about the roman empire", that means that every man you know has a dangerously bad relationship to imperialism

[giantkillerjack]

I HAVE BEEN LEARNING ABOUT MISTER AUGUSTUS OCTAVIAN/OCTAVIUS GAIUS CAESAR SINCE 8TH GRADE. HOW AM I STILL LEARNING MORE THINGS ABOUT HIM THAT MAKE ME GO "octavius babe holy shit what the fuck what the FUCK dude"

[chodoyodes]

Can’t believe how blinded I was by fujoshisim when I first read this book (Richard/Francis shipper…) and now my matured mind obsessed with underlying rot and fucked up dynamics is in full bloom and I’m LOVING it

[skitskatdacat63]

You look over to me in class and I am just intensely working on a Habsburg family tree KDKFLGLGL I'm mentally well, I swear....