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batsplat · 5 months ago

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wait, is there a dovi/jorge feud???? i didn't know this!! also thank you so much for all you do for this community ❤️

not the only ask I've gotten about this and... look, rather than doing a proper write up that would take forever, I'm just gonna give my top ten fun... facts? bits of trivia. tidbits related to the two of them. quite long tidbits, on second glance. the highlight reel, if you will

(1) that time andrea dovizioso made 14 year old jorge lorenzo cry

the two of them already raced each other before the start of their grand prix careers, competing for the first time in 2001 in the cev when dovi was around 15 and jorge around 14. in riveras tobia's biography, here's jorge talking about their first fight:

I led the way at the start and Dovizioso and I escaped. It was our first head-to-head encounter, the first time we raced each other. My dad had heard that Dovi was a really clever rider and he warned me before the race. But just like in 1998 at Jerez, with Olive, I acted like a dummy and pushed for the whole race. I kept looking behind me to see the bastard still there! It was impossible to shake him off, he was watching me the whole race until the last lap. Three comers from the end I could hear his engine getting closer and I saw his shadow to my left, but he didn't come past. I thought to myself "This guy is going to try something in a second!" I decided I had to on a tighter line and close the door. Sure enough, Dovi went wider through that comer and then dived up the inside. I didn't close the door in time and tried to get in his slipstream, desperately hoping I could get him the next corner, but I ran wide and he won. I came back in tears, I didn't even want to go to the podium, I felt so cheated. I'd been on the limit for the whole race and I felt like I deserved the win more than he did.

so that's a nice and positive start! there's something charming about how even fifteen year old dovi was an absolute menace on last laps

also about that race:

'Jorge beat Dovi in Braga but in the previous race at Most, what a tantrum!' recalls Juanito, laughing. 'He didn't even want to go to the podium, he was crying like a baby! I can still see Dani (Antatriain) talking to him, trying to convince him. In the end he went but he didn't want to look at anybody.'

(2) the photo finish

in 2004, they were rivals in 125cc - a year in which dovi claimed the title and jorge was p4 in the standings. in the very first grand prix ever at the lusail circuit (pretty eventful weekend, you have to say), jorge and dovi crossed the line at the exact same moment

(3) dovi's top three favourite career win

dovi and jorge progressed through the categories at the exact same rate, and after their 125cc rivalry they continued fighting in 250cc. they were title rivals in both 2006 and 2007, with jorge's aprilia winning out both times against dovi's underpowered honda. (the general pattern was that dovi clawed back a bunch of points from jorge in the wet - jorge, with perhaps the exception of a few years in the premier class until around 2013, has never been much of a wet weather racers, while it's always been one of dovi's strongest traits.) for dovi's 300th career start in 2019, he was asked what his top three wins were - and one of his picks was from way back when in 2007

I'd recommend the race! which... well, I did in the race rec post - and I can only reiterate that these two kids do not acknowledge each other, not good vibes at all

(4) jorge's thoughts on young dovi from 2008

Jorge has a lot of respect for Andrea Dovizioso and feels that his two 250cc world titles have even more prestige because he had to beat the Italian to win them. 'You wouldn't label Dovizioso as fast, particularly, but he's much faster than he looks. He doesn't set many pole positions but he is always up front in a race, fighting to win. He is very intelligent and you can't trust him an inch on the last lap. He has been faithful to Honda, he has great belief in them. His negative side is that he tends to play the victim too much. He'll say that if his bike had a better engine or if it was a bit faster he would win. He's even said that if he was on the same bike as me he'd give me a hiding. I think he looks for excuses too often sometimes, but as a rider and a person I don't have a bad word to say about him.'

some dovi traits read as very familiar, from how he's a better racer than qualifier to the intelligence to the last lap prowess. as for jorge saying dovi plays victim too much? well

also this:

ER: Don't you think that Dovizioso wanted to be World Champion too in 2006 and 2007? Don't you think he gave everything to achieve it? JL: He will think he gave his maximum but he will be lying to himself because nobody does that. Nobody gets close to their maximum, not even me. He will think that he didn't win because he was riding a Honda. There are very few sportsmen who will say, I deserve what happened to me and there are no excuses. I didn't know how to do any better and I've done things wrong.' That is the only way to be the best, the only way. People who make excuses don't get to the top. I know riders who haven't made it for just that reason.

plus ça change

(5) jorge's thoughts on young dovi from 2018

when they were doing their thing as ducati teammates (bickering), here is one of the things jorge said about dovi:

dovi's been trying to undermine jorge's morale his WHOLE career... even when they were but teenagers... love it when you can really tell someone's been sitting on something for over a decade

(6) "also lorenzo is not my friend"

both of them moved up to motogp in 2008, jorge with factory yamaha and dovi with satellite honda. dovi had a very strong rookie season and finished in p5, only sixteen points behind jorge in p4 (who after a promising first few races had spent a lot of time that season crashing). after that, their fortunes diverged. dovi did not have a particularly happy time in the factory honda team and needed to do some shrewd negotiating to be retained by them for 2011 in that three-man squad, while jorge of course won the championship in 2010

here's a deep cut from 2011, a season where much of the excitement and drama was caused by marco simoncelli alone. jorge had exchanged tense words with sic in estoril, one race before simoncelli was responsible for a crash where dani broke his collarbone. the crash and sic's subsequent penalty meant that the three-way fight between jorge, dovi and valentino became one for the podium, with dovi and valentino eventually grabbing the two remaining spots behind casey. but during the race, jorge had executed a... questionable manoeuvre on dovi, one that did have some similarities to the sic/dani incident. given jorge's strong previous comments on racing standards, unsurprisingly the journalists pounced on this incident in the post-race presser and ask the podium sitters about it. here is the clip:

in this clip, dovi essentially says it was a dangerous move from jorge, but he wasn't sure what jorge's intent had been and he needs to watch the footage again. valentino (who had been the most outspokenly critical of sic of the three of them earlier in the presser) takes the opportunity presented to him to have a bit of a potshot at jorge. he says that dovi doesn't have the best relationship with sic but jorge had done something pretty similar in the race... at which point dovi goes "also lorenzo is not my friend"

which, you know. not exactly a major incident, but I find it very charming dovi felt the need to clarify that, actually, he doesn't like either of them. valentino also adds that by jorge's own standards, surely he too should have gotten a penalty. not exactly a meeting of jorge's biggest fans hm

(7) mapping eight-gate

well I can't leave it out, can I

so in 2017 jorge switches from yamaha to ducati and does not have a great time of it. a lot of weekends, he's just too slow, other times he shoots to the front of a race at the start (typically not great news for the rest of the field in his yamaha days) and then chews up his tyres before gradually dropping like a stone back through the field. at some point that year it became a bit of a running gag - especially when you saw he was the only big name to be picking a soft tyre and just went... buddy we ALL know how this is gonna end....

while this was happening, his teammate dovi was for the first time in his premier class career in championship contention. an extremely close title fight throughout the year with five protagonists until pretty late in the season, it eventually went to a title decider in valencia between dovi and marc. you know, the kind of year where every point counts. the race where marc put a bit of daylight between himself and dovi was phillip island, with marc winning a great dogfight out front while dovi had a bit of a horror show of a weekend. this meant that a lot would have to go right for dovi to have a chance of still winning the title... and sepang was already a match point race for marc

ducati had not won a championship since their 2007 title, courtesy of one casey stoner. after that year, their bike became steadily less competitive every season, reaching a nadir around the 2011-13-ish period. so by the time 2017 rolled around, they wanted this so so badly - even if they wouldn't have expected dovi to lead the charge. dovi had only narrowly beaten out iannone in the 'who's going to be fired for our shiny new lorenzo hire' contest of 2016, and really it was supposed to be jorge who was carrying ducati's dreams on his shoulders. but, never mind, they were throwing everything behind dovi now... no stone left unturned

which brings us, of course, to the subject of team orders. this discourse really took off at the penultimate race of the season at sepang, but was already brewing before that - and in phillip island, satellite ducati rider redding had been told early in the race to let dovi past

here from marc at sepang:

dovi had been in great form all weekend at sepang - and with his wet weather prowess being what it was, really there shouldn't have been any need for team orders at all. but he got a sluggish start, and the race unfolded from there... until eventually jorge was in first, dovi was in second and marc in fourth. in those positions, marc would have clinched the title there

and then, jorge got a message on his dashboard. suggested mapping: mapping 8. pit boards and dashboards and all sorts of boards will feature various codes during races, most of them completely innocuous - but of course they are a healthy source of all sorts of conspiracies. the timing of this one was certainly... notable, and speculation immediately started about how it might be a way of telling jorge that he should swap positions with dovi

jorge didn't end up letting dovi pass - it is questionable whether he really would have done so with what would have been his first ducati win on the line. in the end, he made a mistake that let dovi through so that dovi claimed the win anyway, keeping himself in mathematical contention in valencia. and jorge did say afterwards he was keeping dovi's title hopes in mind, kind of

jorge also said he hadn't gotten any message indicating team orders, and of course nobody at ducati confirmed that mapping eight did have anything to do with team orders

for what it's worth, this is what dovi said about their relationship at this stage:

lovely! let's see what the vibes are like a few months later

anyway, onto valencia. this race was pretty boring despite being a title decider, but the jorge/dovi bits were just unequivocally the weekend's most enjoyable aspect and rather nicely spiced up the whole thing. dovi's chances were always slim going in, given he'd have to win the race and marc would have to barely get any points at all... but still, you never know, right? marc could always crash (narrator: he did almost crash). jorge plays coy early in the weekend about the whole 'helping dovi out thing', and basically just started putting in place...? ... very specific conditions...? under which he'd help:

so during the actual race, dovi got stuck behind jorge in p5, with marc ahead of both of them. valencia is traditionally not a fantastic track to overtake at... so even if dovi had been faster, it's not like he'd have an easy time clearing jorge and cracking on. but they were beginning to drift further away from dani in p3 as ducati watched on, increasingly unamused by what was happening - and the tv cameras were of course kind enough to repeatedly show the ducati box looking deeply unamused. again, they went for the good old mapping eight message, which, hey, that could mean anything! they sure did keep showing it to jorge though, almost like he wasn't paying attention to it

eventually, they abandon all subtlety and go for a pit board message that does just straight-up tell jorge to swap positions. jorge kept ignoring the messages, lap after lap, and he never ended up letting dovi past. eventually they both crashed and marc claimed the title with a p3 finish, so it wouldn't have mattered anyway, but... still. the feeling was that this might things rather awkward inside of ducati

publicly, ducati was extremely keen to smooth over the whole controversy, saying they totally weren't mad at jorge blatantly ignoring team orders. jorge had, after all, explained to them (and the media, repeatedly) that he had totally been intending to help dovi by dragging him closer to dani

Giving his take on events, Lorenzo acknowledged that he ignored Ducati’s instruction because he felt Dovizioso’s chances would be boosted by having him directly ahead. “Even looking at this [dashboard] suggestion, I keep pushing until the end, because I knew it was the best thing for me, for Ducati and for Dovi,” said Lorenzo. “I helped him to improve his pace by one or two tenths, to be as close as possible to the first group. My intention was, and it was the case, that we arrive at the first group. If he had the option to win, I would have gone wide and let him pass. But unfortunately it was not like that. Maybe in some corners Dovi was close and I slow down a little bit his pace, but in general terms, having my wheel in front of him made him improve slightly his pace. I helped him stayed closer to the front group. “I knew Dovi was struggling, I knew his pace during all the weekend, and I knew he was making the best pace of the weekend just in the race. It was [because of the] help from my wheel. I’m happy because I was not wrong. If I was wrong and slowing him, I would be very sorry. But it’s not like that, my feeling was true.”

which, you know. is it really that easy to tell how much faster you are than someone who's sitting on your rear tyre? who's to say. dovi did certainly seem rather keen to get past

anyhow, of course there were plenty of fun dramatics post-race:

'our rider ignored team suggestions not team orders' is a great line, fairs. there's plenty more of this from ducati, some excellent spin doctoring - and dovi was extremely magnanimous about what had happened:

the whole thing was pretty undignified from all non-dovi parties, but it was also very funny so who's to say if it was bad or not

(8) runner-up-gate

let's check in on them in 2018, the second and ultimately last year in which they were teammates. remember that 'undermining morale' quote from above? those are from early 2018, after dovi says he wouldn't be surprised to see jorge elsewhere the following season. so, once jorge has complained that dovi had been trying to put him down his entire career, comes this:

so that's something. jorge, dovi and dani have a three-in-one crash in jerez, after which some fingers are pointed but it all remains fairly civil, and a bit later dovi says that jorge's approach doesn't work at ducati:

by the summer break, jorge's results had gotten better, but it was already too late to save the relationship with ducati and they parted ways. anyway, here's dovi and jorge having another go at it:

And while a rough patch for Dovizioso coupled with breakthrough back-to-back wins for Lorenzo in Mugello and Barcelona have now left the pair just three points apart in the standings, Dovizioso refused to back down from his claim when speaking to Spanish sports daily Marca ahead of the upcoming Brno race. “He’s won two races,” Dovizioso said. “Winning two races does not solve the problem of a year and a half. Lorenzo was not signed to win two races. Therefore I do not change my mind.” When the comments were put to Lorenzo, the three-time champion offered an ardent retort, stating that Dovizioso's rhetoric was proof of the claim he'd made back in April. “I'm a bit fed up with this situation, mainly because when I had trouble and he was winning, I was down there applauding,” Lorenzo told Spanish broadcaster Movistar. “What I said in Argentina - and the comments caused a big surprise - you can see that I was right. “He tried to undermine me, or downplay what I achieve or just attack me. As you can see, I wasn't lying. He's still doing it and now he says my method is not good, according to him.” Lorenzo intimated that Dovizioso was in no position to criticise him, as the Italian could do no better than runner-up to Marc Marquez in a 'perfect' 2017 season. He said: “I think my method has not worked too bad in my career. I've won three MotoGP titles and have 46 wins.” “In my second year in Ducati I'm usually faster than him, but maybe I should look at his method closer if in his best season, with everything going perfectly, he was second. Otherwise he's fourth or seventh usually. I'd tell him to leave me to go my way and to focus on his own and everything will be better, because when you have an angry Lorenzo it's usually worse for you.”

fair to say that by this point the pretence at civility has mostly been dropped. I'm rather fond of the "lorenzo was not signed to win two races" line, though "when you have an angry lorenzo it's usually worse for you" is also really strong stuff. dovi tries to restore a little bit of peace:

Responding in turn to Lorenzo's tirade, Dovizioso sought to play down the conflict. “Jorge has his ideas and I think they are based on particular things. I don't think like him, but it's not a problem,” he told Movistar. “Everybody creates their own ideas based on what they see and how they live. “I don't think he has everything clear in his head about what's happened, but we continue the relationship that we started last year with respect, there's no particular problem. If he thinks this way, that's his problem."

so basically the classic 'idk what he's on about but it's not my problem' approach to attempting to defuse feuds

(9) twitter-gate

there's a few more on-track battles where it's nicely obvious how badly they want to beat each other, with jorge beating marc just ahead of dovi in austria and then dovi beating jorge in brno. jorge's season is increasingly derailed by injuries, which sets the stage for their next big spat:

The row was sparked by Dovizioso's comments to Sky Italia after qualifying at Sepang on Saturday, as he was asked what he thought of Lorenzo having to pull out of the Malaysian GP weekend with injury. "I don't know the details, I don't want to get into this, it's a bit of a strange situation," said Dovizioso."It happens often in Ducati or to certain riders, but I don't understand the details and I don't want to get into it and give my opinion." When it was put to him he was offering 'cryptic words', he added: "I leave things there, it's not my problem."

pretty vague, yeah. but anyway, I'm sure jorge had a proportionate response to this

Dovizioso's comments prompted a series of irate posts from Lorenzo on Twitter, with his first reaction being "Thank you very much @AndreaDovizioso! You are a real gentleman!". In his next post, he went on to call Dovizioso "an exemplary teammate", adding: "You applaud him under the podium when he wins and then... (That's right, he does not give his opinion, it's not his problem)." After that, Lorenzo labelled Dovizioso "envious" and described him as "a world champion... in 125cc."

the podium thing really bothered him, don't you think. their ducati in-fighting follows that general pattern where dovi says something... a little shady, a little ambiguous, where his intentions aren't entirely obvious... at which point jorge goes all in at fighting back and has a go at dovi - often not as much for what dovi is actually saying, but what jorge thinks dovi is implying. which is based on his understanding of dovi, the image of dovi he's built up in his head over the years, so that he is... predisposed to think ill of the intentions of the 'intelligent' dovi who always knows exactly what he's saying

again, dovi tried to downplay the argument, while simultaneously not exhibiting much patience for jorge's stance:

After the Malaysian GP, Dovizioso was asked about Lorenzo's responses to his comments, and the Italian accused his teammate of reading too much into headlines. He said: “Why should I talk to Lorenzo? I do not waste time on these things. He makes the usual mistake of giving too much importance to what is written, even without the context. "I have not pointed my finger at anyone and I have no problem with Jorge."

if I were ducati, I probably would've let the whole thing blow over given jorge was off soon anyway. but they decided the whole thing was so bad they had to organise a peace summit

Asked about the situation, Ducati sporting director Paolo Ciabatti admitted to Motorsport.com that the Bologna marque has already planned to sit its two riders on Tuesday in Milan to make it clear what its priorities are. Ciabatti said: “It is clear that the interests of Ducati come before personal problems between riders. On Tuesday we will be together in Milan, for the EICMA [motorcycle show] and we have in mind to spend half an hour to sit and talk to Jorge and Andrea. "We want to avoid similar things to what happened last weekend. "I understand that these kinds of situations can happen. Sometimes riders get nervous during a Grand Prix weekend and on a rainy day, with tricky conditions, sometimes they say things they shouldn’t have said."

god knows how that turned out

(10) wow, you guys aren't gonna let this go, huh

late 2020 and jorge's career is already over, while dovi's looks like it will be... paused, at the very least. which is always a good time to check in with riders on how they feel about their rivals - if they're still being nasty you know that shit was personal. from december:

some quality petty material here. "I can't understand his somewhat peculiar mind" vs "he was envious of me since 250cc, but I wanted to give our relationship a chance". note too jorge talking again about how generous he had been in the face of dovi's 2017 successes, and how he feels like this was not reciprocated at all. jorge's complaints don't stop there:

merry christmas!

not the only rider jorge has beefed with post-retirement, but compare and contrast with how he really hasn't been doing any of that with some of his biggest career rivals. valentino, marc, dani - sure, he still talks about the controversies he's had with them pretty regularly (to put it lightly), and he's hardly free of complaints... but mostly it's a distinctly nostalgic tone he's adopting with these guys. admittedly, it helps that none of those three have gone out of their way to say anything particularly inflammatory about jorge. still, the absolute lack of any sort of rapprochement with dovi of all people is pretty funny

bonus: that time when jorge skittled all of marc's rivals

you know how in catalunya 2019, jorge took out like? all of marc's major rivals in that era including himself in one go? with half a decade of hindsight, this was kind of hilarious, and it did also feature jorge having to eat a hell of a lot of humble pie and go to the three other blokes to apologise. anyway I have a lovingly assembled set of screenshots of all three of them emoting in their boxes after the incident, all suffering some form of an existential crisis. here is dovi contemplating the bleak realities of our brief lives on this planet:

truly one of the world's least enthusiastic waves

bonus 2: another one for old time's sake

already posted this elsewhere, but this from late 2023 made me laugh

"jorge came to ducati and thought he was going to beat everything, but in the end he didn't" uh huh

#also thank you!! that's really nice #valentino is absolutely SHAMELESS in that clip i'm crying... saw some low hanging fruit and took a chainsaw to the entire tree #laughs a bit TOO much at that dovi line. a little restraint I beg #andrea dovizioso #brr brr #//#ad4 #morale tag #batsplat responds #very lazy post sorry but i just wanted to do something fast... i do think they're more interesting than just a list of drama #real lack of mutual respect... how little they get each other... also jorge's side of that 250cc rivalry is sooooo...#currently still cooking up that jorge/valentino post which means i'm obviously revisiting my jorge primary sources #and the way valentino and dovi get described in particular is... hm how to describe this... this isn't just a sports thing but -#- especially in sports and especially at juniors level you come across a lot of people who act like they're constantly on camera #jorge at that age has extreme sports film syndrome. his entire team also has sports film syndrome. the author has sports film syndrome #they're constantly trying to write character arcs for him. 'like a superhero after his darkest hour' that kinda thing #and that also means other riders sometimes get this treatment where you're a bit? this doesn't feel... completely in touch with reality #dovi's The First Rival who's there to help jorge grow... it's quite tricky to explain because you can't point to anything SPECIFIC #it's just tones and vibes really lmao #anyway my point is I do have Takes on this dynamic but for now. here is just a random assortment of stuff with a lil bit of context #I do love it when you have a kind of primary text for these riders. they're all COMPLETELY different #all with quite funny editorial choices that sometimes tell you as much about the blokes as the actual text itself #fwiw the jorge one was the one where i had the most moments of 'hm i'm not sure it happened quite like that but continue'

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menelaiad · 1 year ago

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Agamemnon is explicitly stated to be hot/muscular. It's in the source material. Books 2 and 3 in particular. I highly doubt being compared to the Gods meant being "chubby" or super old. The ancient text obviously wouldn't say "ripped" because that wasn't in their vocabulary. But they refer to him as everything else that such a body would imply.

And Achilles was saying things in anger in Book 1. Everyone forgets how in Book 23, Achilles pretty much retracts everything he said and claims Agamemnon is the best natural warrior which he was.

tldr; im a petty bitch

y'all are SO PRESSED ON THIS LMAOOO I'M CRYING

'ripped' isn't in their vocabulary?? but 'hot' and 'muscular' are? really?

AGAIN about your last point, cause people who are so pressed about this just keep ignoring it: YOU CAN BE A WARRIOR. AND NOT BE CONVENTIONALLY 'RIPPED'. NOTHING ABOUT A HUMAN BEING - A HUMAN MAN HAVING A SLIGHT TUMMY WILL STOP HIM BEING ABLE TO RUN, FIGHT, KILL PEOPLE AND BE A WARRIOR. YOUR WEIGHT IS NOT AN AUTOMATIC INDICATOR OF YOUR FITNESS LEVEL/ABILITIES.

that's y'alls prejudice about larger people coming through. this stupid belief that the ancient world represented 'the peak masculine alpha ideal' no????? this whole 'if man strong and can stab and have sex with woman then man must be muscley and ripped cause that make man sexy' like shut up.

it's baffling to me that you're all so heated on this. the mere thought of a human man having a tummy is sending you all west. you can't cope. a human man who consumed copious amounts of alcohol (because ancient greeks just did???) and probably had a very rich diet. having tummy??? NO. ILLEGAL.

im sorry but im cracking up over here. i couldnt care less whether people think aga has a 16-pack, that he's skinny as a twig, that he's fat, that he's not, that he's somewhere in between - idc. but your adamancy against 'slight tummy' aga. is just ..... fatphobic. and i never thought i'd type that word out being a fucking classics blog lmaooo.

i have shared so many DUMB opinions on this blog. from menelaus' teeth to odyssues' hairy feet and yet the thing that gets the most reaction from people - is agamemnon's weight.

that's what's pissing me off. everything else? whatever have your own opinion, you weird menelaus girl. but the sECOND i say why i think i character might be a lil chubby OOF ouTRAGE. IM A FOOL.

also your point is just so incredible. my issue isn't with you thinking aga was a ripped sex god crafted by aphrodite herself. it's your use of the word 'explicitly' cause aga's size (in regards to his weight) is NEVER explicitly stated ANYWHERE. so we're both just having our own opinions. but mine has got you so pressed????

i own a couple translations of the iliad. lets look at some. and see the descriptions of aga, shall we? cause i know exactly which sections you mean in book 2 and 3. contrary to your apparent belief, i have read the iliad.

we'll do book 2 first to make it all easier to follow:

PETER GREEN

“among them the lord Agamemnōn, in eyes and head like Zeus who delights in the thunderbolt, like Arēs in girth, and with the chest of Poseidōn. As one steer in a herd of cattle stands out, far above them all— the bull, distinguished among the cows assembled round it— such a one on that day Zeus rendered Atreus’s son, preeminent among many, of heroes the foremost.”

... again. nothing really? girthy??? eyes like zeus (nice)??? tall??? nothing about weight here babes.

CAROLINE ALEXANDER

there to go into combat, and with them was lord Agamemnon— his eyes and head like Zeus who hurls the thunderbolt, his girth like Ares, his chest like Poseidon’s. As when an ox stands out from all others in the herd, a bull who is preeminent among the gathered cattle, so did Zeus on that day render the son of Atreus conspicuous amid the multitude, outstanding among warriors.

pretty much the same?? gets called an 'ox' here though. ooooh

ROBERT FAGLES.

and there in the midst strode powerful Agamemnon, eyes and head like Zeus who loves the lightning, great in the girth like Ares, god of battles, broad through the chest like sea Lord Poseidon. Like a bull rising head and shoulders over the herds, a royal bull rearing over his flocks of driven cattle — so imposing was Atreus' son, so Zeus made him that day, towering over fighters, looming over armies.

just more girth stuff. that can mean his shoulders?? his chest?? his ass? bro we don't know. was aga just THICC. his cheeks always alerting the trojans???

ROBERT FITZGERALD.

Agamemnon's lordly mien was like the mien of Zeus whose joy is lightning; oalken-waisted as Ares, god of war, he seemed, and deep-chested as Lord Poseidon, and as a great bull in his majesty towers supreme amid a grazing herd, so on that dav Zeus made the son of Atreus tower over his host, supreme among them.

i like this one tbf. this one has got more meat on it. 'oaken waisted'. nice nice. again. i don't see oak trees are particullarly 'narrow' but hey. interpretation is what makes this field so great.

RICHARD LATTIMORE

“powerful Agamemnon, with eyes and head like Zeus who delights in thunder, like Ares for girth, and with the chest of Poseidon; like some ox of the herd pre-eminent among the others, a bull, who stands conspicuous in the huddling cattle; such was the son of Atreus as Zeus made him that day, conspicuous among men, and foremost among the fighters.”

STANLEY LOMBARDO

To enter battle, and Lord Agamemnon Moved among them like Zeus himself, The look in his eyes, the carriage of his head, With a torso like Ares', or like Poseidon's. Picture a bull that stands out from the herd Head and horns above the milling cattle— Zeus on that day made the son of Atreus A man who stood out from the crowd of heroes.

SEE this one we're not even talking about his LITERAL appearance but how he's holding himself. how he acts. his CONFIDENCE. cool take, stan. i like it.

STEPHEN MITCHELL

“and among them was Agamemnon, his splendid eyes and head like almighty Zeus’s, his thighs like the thighs of Ares, his chest like Poseidon’s. As a bull stands out in a herd above all the others, sovereign among the cows as they graze in a field: just so, on that day, did Lord Zeus make Agamemnon supreme over all the warriors massed before Troy.”

LOVE the thigh mention Mitchell. nice nice.

'The ancient text obviously wouldn't say "ripped" because that wasn't in their vocabulary. But they refer to him as everything else that such a body would imply.'

bro all i'm getting is the word 'girthy'?? if you want me to be a bitch about it, that's not a word i'd put with someone who is 'ripped'. if anything, they're implying he got junk in his trunk. i truly hand on heart. cannot see anything in the book 2 translations that imply or indicate to me that he does not have a tummy. that he is rocking a six pack. WHICH IS FINE. we can play with it and form our own opinions. but you're THIS IMPLIES .... is wrong??? it doesn't imply anything dude????

all we can infer from any of the book two stuff is that he's a man who is larger than the other men around him - literally? metaphorically? we dont know. (which is all horseshit anyway cause priam later goes on to say he's a short arse which is helpful). and that he shares qualities with the gods. again, literally? metaphorically? bit of both? we. don't. know.

TIME FOR BOOK 3. the priam and helen thirst.

PETER GREEN

“and to put a name for me to that huge warrior down there, that Achaian leader, of such stature and so strong: others there may be taller still by a head, and yet so fine a man have I never set eyes on, nor one so majestic in bearing—he looks to be of royal blood.” helen later calls him a 'strong spearman'

CAROLINE ALEXANDER

tell me the name of this gigantic man, who is this Achaean man, good and great? To be sure there are other men even greater in height, but I have never beheld with my eyes a man so handsome, nor so majestic; for he seems a kingly man. helen later calls him a 'powerful spear-warrior'

ROBERT FAGLES

“ tell me the name of that tremendous fighter. Look, who's that Achaean there, so stark and grand? Many others afield are much taller, true, but I have never yet set eyes on one so regal, so majestic . . . That man must be a king!” helen later calls him a 'strong spearman'

ROBERT FITZGERALD

Come, tell me who the big man is out there, who is that powerful figure? Other men are taller, but I never saw a soldier clean-cut as he, as royal in his bearing: he seems a kingly man. helen later calls his a 'formidable warrior'

RICHARD LATTIMORE

“You could tell me the name of this man who is so tremendous; who is this Achaian man of power and stature? Though in truth there are others taller by a head than he is, yet these eyes have never yet looked on a man so splendid nor so lordly as this: such a man might well be royal.” helen later calls him a 'strong spearfighter'

STANLEY LOMBARDO

Now tell me, who is that enormous man Towering over the Greek troops, handsome, Well-built? I've never laid eyes on such A fine figure of a man. He looks like a king. helen later calls him a 'strong warrior'

STEPHEN MITCHELL

“Tell me now, what is the name of that splendid man who is standing down there, so powerful and so tall. To be sure, there are other men who are even taller, but never before have I seen a man so majestic, so splendid in form and bearing. He must be a king.” helen later calls him a 'mighty soldier'

again. in all of these - nothing. all that's consistent is that he's not the tallest man at troy. which means ..... very little ASDFGHJK. there is Nothing concrete here. nothing that points us more one way than it does the other.

ultimately, dude, what we've got is.... nothing. nothing concrete. nothing definitive. i can't say you're wrong and you can't say i'm wrong.

i saw the phrase 'wine sack' and interpreted it my way and you saw it and interpreted it differently. but books 2 and 3 certainly don't back either of us up more definitively.

and in regards to his age. same thing. you can't say i'm wrong and i can't say you're wrong. but i've explained my reasonings for aga's age using sources HERE

idk man. if you're looking for an EXPLICITLY YOUNG CHISELED ABS LEGEND MALE CHARACTER. look elsewhere.

#yes this is the pettiest and the bitchiest thing i've ever done #and i completely respect if y'all can't stand me afterwards #but it's not lost on me that the .... 'fat headcanon' so it were is the one that gets people mad #ask yourself - why?#i literally just wanted to show that there is nothing definitive in the 'source material'#cause there's not. homer had bigger things to deal with in the iliad. fair enough lad #also random fact: i did a search for 'muscle' in all texts cause i was curious #and it's 99% of the time talking about thighs.#i like your style homer #long post under the cut. no im serious

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