#so i understand those perspectives at least

[outrunningthedark]

I dont think he needs to come out defending Lou - Lou can handle himself he’s a grown man and has taken ( I think at least) the best course of action (stay silent until the season starts back up again). However I do have a lot of mutuals who are queer men who feel little hurt by the lack of acknowledgement for this queer relationship. Like getting excited that your favourite show has a relationship that you feel represented (just like with Michael and David) only to have silence from the social media team and the actors (well we clearly know why Lou is currently silent -when he was active he did talk Beautifully about them) can be hurtful. I don’t know if this makes any sense at all. But I did find it a bit odd ( and this is not me assuming malicious intent - I like to give the benefit of the doubt) some of the patterns I’ve seen. At the end of the day everyone is free to do whatever they want - while at the same time fans can feel how they want to feel. I understand both perspectives.

I don’t know if any of this makes sense -it got away from me as I was writing 😂

I know what you're saying, and I agree. I think people are (I assume unintentionally) lumping calling out bad behavior and acknowledging the canon relationship together as the same course of action, but...it's not. (I mean, from what I saw of the reaction to my post there was a lot of hand-waving for why Oliver's "doing the right thing" because fandom is out of control.) I don't think Oliver needs to "defend" Lou or even Tommy as a character. (He didn't defend any of the women on the show until they were gone so why start now, honestly.) But there IS a way to take a stand without even saying anything, isn't there? Post a story. Post a pic. Share a fan edit. Captions not needed. The content would speak for itself. He's not staying silent because he hates the story line - sorry Buddies! - because he definitely knew that if the GA reaction went well BuckTommy was going to continue past those four episodes. He's staying silent because he lets these people behind a screen get in his head and make him feel like he has to walk on eggshells while "interacting with fandom". And listen, we all get it! He's gotta do what he's gotta do to protect his mental health! But you can acknowledge his feelings without dismissing the feelings of the queer fans who are only seeing a guy essentially do a 180 because public pressure is too high. How is he "representing" anybody if he doesn't even celebrate the story he's telling? [There's a quick-fix to all of this, btw. Get a fucking social media manager to do the posting so he doesn't have to see any of this shit with his own eyes if it's gonna drag him down that much.]

[cuecrynsleep]

Reconnecting the Past

Amangela | Reunion AU!

Chapter 15: Routinely Calls

Amanda and Angela start to fall into a routine with Amanda later texting Shayne about news.

Disclaimer: This is not meant to be a representation of those in Smosh, rather a fan made perspective on the characters they portray online. Remain respectful.

← Ch. 14 | Masterlist

────────────────────

"Okay I am starting the car," Angela, all but announced the moment the call connected.

"Thank you for the play by play Angela," Amanda teased. "I really needed it."

"Well, I don't know what else to say," she uttered. Shuffling was heard over the speaker, a light beeping noise coming from Angela's car as she presumably reversed out of her driveway. "What are you up to, anyway? It's early."

"I'm doing my hair. I finished getting dressed and my makeup earlier." Amanda said, her phone set down on the sink counter as she brushed through her long hair a final time.

"What the?" Angela said. "You're already ready? Doesn't your thing start at like 9?"

"Yeah, but it's fine. Tommy and I will probably arrive early," Amanda shrugged. She gathered up her stuff, checking through her bag a final time. "I'm used to waking up early for this, so might as well."

"I think you're just insane," Angela commented. "I understand getting ready early, but you know you can just stay behind in your hotel and watch TV."

"It feels awkward to do when I have filming today," Amanda said, her phone to her ear and off speaker as she made her way to the elevator. "I like leaving stuff like that for after work."

There was a brief pause before Angela spoke. "Oh, I get that. I feel like it's easier to start doing stuff like that in your downtime once you have a better work and personal life balance."

"True," Amanda commented. "I'll be better at it once I'm back in California."

"Sometimes I forget you do still live there," Angela admitted. "Like we started talking again and then suddenly you're in Canada."

Amanda texted Tommy as another person entered the elevator, she shuffled deeper into the corner, her voice softer as she spoke. "Well I'm bound to be back there within July," she paused. "Hopefully."

"Tell your work they suck at scheduling," Angela teased.

"Trust me, they know."

"How's filming nowadays?" Angela asked.

Amanda couldn't stop herself from sighing. "It's fine all things considered." She ended up leaving it at that, waiting for Angela to either comment or change the topic.

"Jesus Christ," Angela mumbled, her voice still clearly heard despite that not being her intention. "There's way too many cars here."

"You're driving in LA, Ange. That's a given." Amanda replied, as she navigated her way through a busy hotel lobby. She initially planned on waiting in one of the chairs but based on the multiple people checking in and out, she decided to cut her losses.

There was another pause, a brief car honk heard in the background. "Are you outside already?" Angela asked. "You really want to get there early."

"Oh, quiet," Amanda rolled her eyes. "What are you up to nowadays?"

"Well, you know, filming for the second short film and the improv group. The usual," Angela said. "I am getting closer to the people in the improv group though, so I'm happy for that."

"I'm glad, it's always good to make friends or at least colleagues in stuff like that."

As minutes passed by Amanda waited for Tommy to join her out in the front. The uber already ordered for the two five minutes ago. Throughout the call Angela ended up rambling about this one improv scene she absolutely loved doing. As Amanda listened, the corners of her mouth twitched upwards into an uncontrollable smile. She sucked her lips into her teeth, simply enjoying the moment.

There was just something about listening to Angela ramble about something she loved that was comforting. Her glances at the road waiting for the Uber to arrive becoming less frequent. As she let herself be lulled into a story about an admittedly funny scene, she failed to notice the door opening and the approaching footsteps.

"Who has you smiling at your phone like that?" Amanda heard Tommy's teasing voice, a hand on her shoulder bringing her back to the present.

"Oh my god!" Amanda practically yelped, unintentionally interrupting Angela. She turned towards Tommy immediately. "I did not see you coming."

Tommy chuckled. "Yeah," he said. "I can see that."

Angela's voice is quietly heard over the phone. Amanda isn't even sure if Tommy can hear her. "Amanda? You good? Mandy?"

"So," Tommy said, he pointed to her phone. "A friend? Boyfriend? Hookup?"

"The first one," Amanda said, just about to reply to Angela.

"You'll be busy soon. I'm going to be hanging up now." Another quiet shuffle is heard. "Good luck in filming."

Angela left the call, Amanda being left by herself before she clicked off. "Well, I was going to introduce you two, but guess not." She checked the time, failing to realize how much time had passed. "Then again she does have to get to filming soon.”

[luniviravosshipper]

Did Lissa Go Back to Soren and Claudia After Leaving?

I’ve actually had this post saved up in my drafts uncompleted for over a month now, but I got inspired by this post to finally talk about the theory I’ve been developing.

Buckle in because this is going to be a pretty lengthy post.

It seems to me that a lot of people are confused, as was I initially, about how old Soren was supposedly when everything happened, from him first getting sick to his mom leaving and the events from Puzzle House taking place.

Seeing that the little boy he was depicted as in the show could barely even speak and seemed extradionarly young, a lot of people didn’t understand if he was supposed to be the same age as he was shown to be in Puzzle House.

A lot of people just kind of assumed with the show depicting him so young and small compared to how we saw him in the graphic novel, that the writers were just diverging from their original canon and switching up what ages they wanted Soren and Claudia to be when everything happened. And others have just assumed the writers must have forgotten what ages they initially showed them as or that this is just another one of those cases where the writers weren’t able to write a proper timeline of events.

But… there’s kind of a lot of issues I’ve found in the logic of both assumptions. There’s actually a lot of things the writers have put in the show and its corresponding graphic novels and short stories that could point to neither of those two options being the actual case. I also think it’s incredibly unfair to suggest that the writers must have just been so stupid to have made such a slip up, if they did make one.

Regardless of what’s true, however, the one thing that’s clear is that the inconsistencies with how the creators choose to portray Claudia and Soren’s ages throughout the series has stirred up quite a bit of confusion and conflict within the fandom. So the question must be asked. Why?

Why so many inconsistencies? Are these inconsistencies evident of some sort of issue on the writers’ part, like one of the possible ones that’s been suggested by others that I’ve listed above? Or are these inconsistencies more evident of how the writers have actually intended to cause such confusion in the fandom space for an ulterior purpose that has yet to be revealed?

So, having those questions in mind, I’ve done a little digging and I think I might have figured out what’s going on from my investigation. Or I at least figured out part of it.

Let’s get into it.

From what I’ve seen online, Soren’s age in particular seems to be the main focus within the discussion surrounding what the kids’ speculated ages were when everything happened. Probably because of how most of these events specifically revolve around him and the fact that we’ve mainly seen him at different ages from Viren’s perspective. So I’ll start by talking about him first.

We first see Soren as this little kid who can almost barely pronounce his words with ruffled up hair and chubby cheeks back in episode 2 of season 5.

And for a very large part of season 6 we see him to be of that same age and of that same physical description in the flashbacks.

We even get a retelling of the same scene we saw when this version of him was first introduced back in season 5 in season 6. And it seems safe to assume that this retelling is supposed to be more representative of what actually happened than what we saw from Viren’s dream sequence, given that it’s a lot more negative.

So, right off the bat, that might already be an indicator that Soren was this young at some point in the series of events between him first getting sick and what happened in Puzzle House and this isn’t merely a distorted view of young Soren from Viren’s perspective.

Besides Soren, we also do see Claudia at a younger age in the series compared to how she first appeared in the Puzzle House graphic novel a couple of times.

And even earlier than that as well, back in season 5 in Viren’s dream sequence.

I wouldn’t say she’s as young as she’s been shown in the flashbacks in season 6 when she had the pig tails, but I also don’t think she’s quite the same age as she was in Puzzle House. It does look like she’s wearing the same undershirt as she was in the graphic novel, so maybe she’s closer to her age in Puzzle House here. But I think she looks like she could be more in between. (I actually have a smaller theory that this is supposed to be showing Claudia and how she looked like when she first learned dark magic because of the whole “I’m following in your footsteps” motif here.)

For the majority of the scenes we’ve seen of Claudia as a little kid though, we’ve mostly just seen her with those pig tails. And we haven’t seen her nearly as much as we’ve seen Soren. So we’ve been kind of led to believe that was her age when most of the events with Soren getting sick and healed and their mom leaving took place. I mean, we quite literally see her chasing after her mom leaving when she was that little.

But… Claudia does not look to be that young in the Reflections story “Lost Child”.

In fact, Claudia looks like how she did in Puzzle House here. And her mom is riding horseback when she’s leaving, making the setting of this image seem entirely different to the one we saw in season 6 of what we assumed to be her mom leaving.

I saw some people claim that Scholastic has restrictions for what ages characters can take in comics, which I haven’t found a source at all for yet, but some people think that that might have messed some things up with their age depictions in the show. But, this image comes from their official website where they don’t have to be subjected to such restrictions. And I just don’t see why they wouldn’t adjust their ages or the timeline of events in the show to make everything line up.

Puzzle House was first announced in September of 2022 with cover art and previews before season 5 was released in August of 2023. Even though it wasn’t officially released till after season 5, they were clearly working on it and planning the story for a much longer time before the season came out. They would’ve had plenty of time to fix their storyline so that it would make sense. But they didn’t. They still choose to depict Soren much younger then how we saw him in the graphic novel, and later on Claudia too in season 6. And we haven’t really found a good reason yet for why they would want to diverge from their already established canon. So, what if it was intentional?

So when I first started investigating everything, I went back to episode 8 of season 6 to look for a certain image. Because I could have sworn I did see Soren aged up, like he was in Puzzle House, in one of Viren’s memories. Which initially confused me because I had no idea what age we were supposed to have figured he had been when everything happened. And I did find it. It was this lovely shot of their entire family.

And Soren does not at all look like how we’ve been seeing him in any of the memories the creators have been showing us thus far of Viren’s. He has a different hairstyle and looks less chibi like. And he looks a lot closer here to how he looked in Puzzle House.

And so did Claudia.

At first, I was left even more confused about what was happening. Because I thought Lissa left when they were way younger. But this image seems to imply that she could have still been with the kids when they were older. Older then in the image we saw of Lissa leaving. And, a lot like many others, I originally thought that they were just trying to completely disregard the fact that they depicted them way older in the graphic novel and were trying to pretend that they were way younger in the show. Because this is perhaps one of the only shots in the show that we get to see them to be around the same age as they were in the comics and reflections stories.

But the thing is, only a couple seconds before do we get this shot.

And in this shot, do they actually look like how we’ve been seeing them so far in Viren’s memories. As very little toddlers.

So… what is happening here? How old were they actually when everything was happening?

Well, let’s review everything we know so far. Soren and Claudia were first depicted older in the reflection story “Lost Child” back in May of 2023 and the Puzzle House graphic novel back in September of 2022 way before season 5 came out in August of 2023, so there was plenty of time for them to change their depicted ages in season 5 to align more with the ages we’ve been previously shown of them having. And there was a large enough gap between the release of season 5 and season 6 for them to fix any issues with their timeline and depictions of their ages if there were any. And, in spite of how young they were depicted mostly in seasons 5 and 6, we still do see them depicted as similar ages as they were in the reflection stories and comics, so that obviously indicates that the writers are very much aware of the differences in their shown ages between those different stories. And it overall just seems like it’d be way easier and convenient for them to keep them aged up in the series to align with the ages we’ve already been shown of them having when a lot of these events first occurred if that was what they really wanted.

None of this information seems to point to the creators making a mistake or an accident in their different depictions of Claudia and Soren’s ages throughout the series. If anything, it seems to point to the opposite. Because why would they make any of these decisions in the first place if they weren’t for a specific intended purpose?

So, why exactly were Soren and Claudia’s ages so inconsistent and why were they mostly shown to be so young in the series? I think there’s only one answer here that really makes sense. Because they never really had a fixed age when everything happened. It all happened over a very long period of time. Spanning from when Soren was perhaps, like, four and Claudia was about two or three all the way to when they were around ten or something.

And this might mean that we have also been misled on one other thing (although it’s likely more on many other things, but that’s not the point here). When their mom actually left. Because there’s a chance that she might have left when they were much older. Long after Soren was actually healed from his sickness.

Because, a) what was that image in the reflections story about? And b) what’s up with Soren, Claudia, and Viren all being so emotionally distraught in the Puzzle House graphic novel about Lissa leaving if she left such a long time ago?

Okay, before I start explaining my second point, I should probably clarify something here. I initially thought and claimed awhile back that Atticus said that everything happened during a span of a year. I was completely wrong and I don’t know where I got that idea from. (I might have gotten confused since I saw someone else suggest awhile back ago that Harrow and Sarai got together only 5 to 7 months after that scene of Viren and Harrow talking in season 6. But in retrospect, that doesn’t really make all that much sense. Not that it’s their fault for having that misunderstanding, they were probably as confused as I was on the passage of time between, well, everything that happened in Viren and the children’s lives. The writers really did make it seem like everything happened all at once, but there was probably a lot more space between all the events that occurred as I’m trying to examine and explain in this post.)

All that King Atticus says is that it all happened one after the other. But he in no way specified a time frame of when and of how long.

However, after rereading Puzzle House, I have found that there is an indication made about the time frame between some of these events. That being the time between them first exploring the Puzzle House and Lissa leaving them.

It’s implied here that it’s only been a couple of weeks since she left because it’s only been a couple of weeks since Claudia has started to act more emotionally off.

I mean, I know that he also says that she’s been acting odd since Kpp’ar disappeared too, which we now know from season 6 that he disappeared before Soren got healed and when he was likely smaller. (This is actually where things seem sort of weird to me and I have trouble understanding the timeline of events most. I feel like he should have gotten coined when they were older because of the clear influence he’s had in their lives. But maybe they were actually older when he did and the two scenes that we saw of Lissa leaving and Viren shutting out Soren happened before Viren got the staff and was still trying to figure out how to heal Soren. But I don’t know. Why would Viren start resenting Soren so early on before he even healed him yet? Why would Soren be so much older when he actually got healed if we have only seen him be heavily implied to be young when he did? Why would Lissa leave then in the very beginning of everything, unless maybe it was in immediate reaction to Viren taking advantage of her and using her tears? But then why would she leave if Soren was still sick? Maybe that’s why she came back?? Because she felt guilty?? Maybe Lissa officially left later when Viren got the staff and she found out that he might have done something to Kpp’ar ??? I don’t know. This is all just speculation and I’m just not sure. Anyways.) But the fact he specifies that it’s been weeks since she hasn’t been speaking a lot and that she seems a lot more affected by what’s happened in their lives, I feel like that’s more of a sign that that’s the time frame from when their mom first officially left to them being in the Puzzle House.

And if it had only been just a couple weeks since Lissa left before they went into the Puzzle House, then that would better explain the image from the reflections.

It would also explain why a lot of the conflict in the graphic novel revolved around Claudia struggling to come to terms with her feelings on her mom leaving them and why Viren is shown to be so emotionally distant in it.

Then there’s the other hints that have been made outside of the graphic novel and the flashbacks we’ve seen.

There’s the information that we know about how Viren made attempts to win back Lissa’s trust, most notably by using the Sunray Monarchs to change his corrupted appearance. But Lissa wasn’t won over. And there was a lot of conflict that grew between them as a result which eventually encouraged them to split.

Of course, Viren could have tried to change his appearance and gain Lissa’s trust before the image we saw of Lissa leaving in season 6. But I think it would make more sense if it happened afterwards so that they would be fighting for longer and it would be while Soren and Claudia were old enough to be able to remember it.

And, I mean, just stating the most obvious explanation here. It’s like what people have been saying. How could they ask them to make such an adult decision? How could Lissa and Viren ask their kids to choose between the two of them? Probably because they could actually make the choice at the time. They could actually articulate their words and were grown up enough at the time to understand what was happening. They weren’t as small as we might have been led on to think they were. They were much older when she officially left them.

Anyways, I’m sure that there’s even more evidence I haven’t picked out yet that could also be hinting to Lissa leaving at a later point in the kids’ lives then we’ve been led to believe. (I would try to gather more intel from the novels but I sadly do not own either one of the two as of right now.) But in general, those are some of my biggest pieces of evidence I have to support my theory.

So, this very significant scene showcasing when Viren first started to resent Soren…

Might have happened way before Lissa actually left. And, given this added context that she hadn’t left yet (or at least permanently left), this completely reframes this scene and what it means.

And, that just leaves what is still largely unknown.

What is happening here exactly?

Not only does it completely contradict the image from the reflection story, but it also just outright doesn’t really make sense on its own.

Where does this fit into the timeline and what is its relevance?

Is this supposed to be showing Lissa trying to leave for the first time, even though she later on decided to go back, like I’ve been speculating? But then why would she go back? And why would she leave again only permanently that time if she chose to go back after the first attempt? What sparked her to try to leave both those times?

Truth is, I have some ideas and some of those ideas I’ve already listed and insinuated to having in this post, but overall I quite simply don’t know. The only thing I’m truly certain of is that this image alone suggests that there is a lot more going on here than we fully know about yet.

[somnolent-scout]

Writing my thoughts here cuz I'm still mentally organizing this idea in my head

The idea: A small scale convention-like event in Seattle mostly about Valve games, sort of an extension of Meet the Mercs.

The main details: A single day event, likely from 11:00am to 8:00pm. Would likely be in the Grand Hyatt Seattle, like the first MtM, but now occupying two halls instead of just the one. One hall would feature 10-15 vendors selling Valve-focused merchandise, though other games are allowed. The other hall would be a stage area for panels, the autograph booths for the TF2 cast, and some table seating.

The financial stuff: Vendor booths would probably be around $75 for 10 x 10, $100 for 10 x 20. Tickets would probably be $50 with one free autograph included, similar to how we did MtM, or a regular admission being $25 or something like that. One Grand Hyatt Seattle hall was about $350 last time, so having two halls would be more costly. Keeping in mind talent cost and Robin's travel costs as well. This would not be cheap.

Marketing: Advertise online via social media, having the VAs and the cosplay community post about it. Hand out flyers about the event at local conventions in the months before the event itself. Probably build a carrd website for the event itself.

Other details: Have lanyards and badges to come with the tickets, featuring artwork made by the community. Possibly sell merchandise with the event logo as well? Although, most of that would rely on making back the production costs instead of contributing to the cost of the event itself. Panel space would be limited, but I'd rather give outsiders an opportunity to submit and possibly present a panel rather than have all the panels be solely presented by others working the show. We would need a lot of volunteers, and we would need to do interviews with them to make sure they're qualified.

I don't think this would be an annual con either. This would be a one and done event. I don't really see the need to do this annually since it's just a tiny little event.

[creature-once-removed]

every time I re read GtN I am caught off guard by how serious it is

Like, Gideon spends the first few pages checking everywhere for possibilities for Harrow's skeletons to ambush her. And then she nonchalantly tells Aiglamene that Harrow would do literally anything to hurt her.

You don't really notice it the first time around because of the lighthearted way it's written, but when you know the context for all of it, it becomes uncomfortably clear how intense and dangerous the situation is that Gideon tries so thoroughly to avoid here.

[abrahamvanhelsings]

"goodsir is neoliberalism bc he tried to kill those guys blah blah blah" they kidnapped him and then they made him cut up men to be consumed as an act of control and pure humiliation by threatening to kill probably the last man he still liked in that party, forcing him to be complicit in an act he is viciously against, and to be complicit in the survival of the very men who betrayed the whole expedition and who are using him like a tool. and then the guy he's trying to protect comes up to him to sob and monologue at him about cannibalism and religion and acts of survival and belief as some kind of justification for the fact that he's an absolute pussy ass bitch who'd rather lie down and take it than stand up in the face of acts and circumstances he finds abhorrent. and goodsir was supposed to not be a cunt abt that? lol

[yourlocalxenomorph3]

it sucks that the choice between the fascist telling people that haitian immigrants are eating their dogs and the woman who worked for the legal system in an effort to do good things is such a difficult choice. like wow there really is no lesser evil between the guy who said covid would just "disappear like a miracle" and the woman who thinks people should be able to have bodily autonomy and access to vital healthcare. it's so unfortunate that there is absolutely zero difference between the guy who said we would "never have to vote again" and the woman who wants to raise taxes on the ludicrously wealthy. what a shame that there's just absolutely no way to choose between the man who thinks disabled people should just die and the woman who wants kids to never go hungry and never get shot at school. and the choice between the guy's side-guy who wants woman to be nothing more than baby-making maids and the woman's side-guy who thinks period supplies should be easy to access? forget it, that's an impossible choice

what a truly terrible, terrible, election where neither party is acceptable in any way. voting just simply doesn't matter because they're both utterly abhorrent people with absolutely no differences at all

[reading comprehension disclaimer: this post is thoroughly sarcastic and intended to mock people who insist that voting is meaningless and that both parties and candidates are identical]

[shopcat]

z*tara is crazy i keep seeing tiktok comments about it like what the damn hell ... leave her alone. Leave her ALONE. if zuko even looks at her i'll kill him i'll KILL HIM. I'LL GET HIM. you people don't like katara at all... he doesn't deserve her. i'm delirious rn sorry. he's gay and she IS NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT on his level Like i'm sorry. as much as i love zuko. Oh it makes me mad... shipping an acorn and an oak tree. she should have slapped him more in the show. you're just wrong. It's just fucked up and wrong. anyway

[ei-mugi]

one time i was talking to my american online friends about stuff and i was like "haha yeah people always say i look ambiguously european but cant place what i am specifically" and they were like "i dont think europeans have a look though." what do you mean. you dont believe different ethnic features exist...?

[imaginarypasta]

i’ve been trying to get through hoh for literally like a week now but it’s so hard bc the way my fave nico is treated is absolutely ABYSMAL and i know it only gets worse

[dr3ambl0g]

.

[the-kipsabian]

.

[ahalliance]

ooo just stumbled onto a new analysis pet peeve i think . dismissing a character’s actions as “OOC” without even trying to make sense of them

[lgbtlunaverse]

I've seen a good number of people ask a question along the lines of "why do characters like Falin and hate Laios when they're so similar?" and i've also seen good analysis on the differences in how the touden siblings carry themselves that would, despite their shared traits, make a person gravitate to one more than the other.

But i feel like we've overseen one very central thing here.

People don't like Falin

Like... the average person in dungeon meshi doesn't like Falin. She was deeply ostrasized by her home village, in magic school she had zero friends before Marcille and the others generally saw her as strange and a bit offputting.

Characters like Namari and Chilchuck like her well enough but not necessarily more than any other member of their party, including Laios. Neither Kabru nor his party think much of her. The canaries don't give a fuck about her. Toshiro's retainers don't see her as anything else than the weird foreign girl their boss has a crush on.

The reason we think everyone loves Falin is because, despite all the indifferent side characters, the 2 most important and central characters of the story are Laios and Marcille. Who are NOT representative of the average attitudes to Falin! But necromancy georg number 1 and 2 are our main eyes into the story and they love Falin so much that it colours our perspective of the whole world.

The only side character who qualifies as liking Falin and not Laios is Toshiro (at least at first, as he ends the story on much better terms with Laios) and that says a lot about his character, with him drifting to the quiet Falin precisely because of her oddness but being both uncomfortable with and deeply jealous of Laios' much more open expression of that oddness. Because he's a repressed guy from a culture where etiquette is incredibly important.

But like I said, that's a specific aspect of him, not to the world at large.

Because there's also people that click more with laios than with Falin.

Kabru, for one, who is initially distrustful of laios but clearly also deeply fascinated by him and drawn to him.

Minor spoilers, and you don't have to read too deeply into this, because I don't think Kabru particularly dislikes Falin or anything. But it's interesting that when he talks about his distrust of the toudens in ch.32 he's talking about them both. But his big friendship declaration in chapter 76 is aimed squarely at Laios, he doesn't say "you and your sister" he says "you"

And Senshi!! He instantly clicks with Laios, well before he does so with anyone else in the party– who he also becomes friends with, it just takes a bit longer– specifically because they bond over their shared special interest in monsters!! Senshi is kind towards Falin and cares for her wellbeing, but he also... doesn't know her. The reason he is even here, helping to save her, is because he and Laios bonded over monsters and he wants to help his new friends out!

Of course, the theme of neurodivergent isolation is very present in Laios' story. I'm not denying that. He does turn people off, without meaning to and unable to fully understand why! But so does Falin. And just like there are people who like her despite of or even because of those traits, there are people who do the same with him.

In conclusion: "Average person loves Falin and hates Laios" factoid actually statistical error. Average person is neutral on both Falin and Laios. Georcille, Laiorg and Geoshiro, who live in the dungeon and think over 10,000 Falin-loving thoughts a day, are statistical outliers adn should not have been counted.

[sneefsnorf]

OH HEY!! do you have final thoguhts on ultrakill and gabriel and the v's and everything :333333 <- my agenda

machine. ive spent my life loved and revered by my people and my church. i trusted my institution and my Father because i never had a reason not to, machine. the council and the people had such high expectations of me and i always rose to meet them. my achievements were many. everything was perfect. and then you took it all from me, machine. i failed ONCE. i wasnt what the church wanted me to be exactly and they tore their love away from me. its not fair. not in the slightest. ive been thinking a lot. ive been reflecting on the churches and the institutions of mankind. so many of them have warped the word of the Father into whatever will give them the most power. they use his teachings to break down and bully those they hate. they grind them into the ground and humiliate them as much as they can, not just for their own self-gain, but for the sake of hatred. this is what the council has done to me, machine, and now i have joined your ranks. all their love for me revoked as soon as i couldnt be what they wanted, thrown from the gates of heaven like the queers and the freaks. i've joined your ranks, machine. i'm less than a person now. and i am filled with so much rage.

anyways thanks for driving me to the abortion clinic machine i really appreciate it

[ambrosiagourmet]

I've been thinking about Laios' succubus lately. Mulling it over a bit.

Because I've seen these pages brought up a fair bit, but almost entirely in the context of shipping (on all sides, really). And I really want to understand what they are doing for the story beyond that.

When I went back to reread the scene and section, a few things caught my interest: the way Laios responds to both forms of his succubus, the themes of the volume the chapter is found in, and the other events of the chapter itself.

So let's dive into those three things, and what I think they say about the succubus scene's purpose.

Laios is never fully frozen by the succubus

So. If you compare Marcille and Chilchuck's reactions...

to Laios':

-

There is a difference. Sure, the basics may look the same once it turns into Scylla Marcille, but even then, it functions differently.

Chilchuck and Marcille are completely frozen once they catch sight of their succubus. Izutsumi, as well, isn't able to look away, and completely freezes up once her 'mom' starts talking to her. As Chilchuck describes, "just looking at them makes you unable to move."

And yet, Scylla Marcille has to actively convince Laios to comply. He even looks away from her at one point!

Laios accepts this succubus, but he is never actually helpless to it in the same way. Taken in? Convinced? Sure, at least enough to let things happen that he probably should question more than he does. But magically compelled? Not really. Not the same way as everyone else is. So that's interesting. But let's move on for now.

2. Volume 9 is all about drive and desire

I don't often look at chapters within the context of the volume they are included in, but I think there's some really fun things to be found with that perspective in mind.

For one, volume 9 starts with an exploration of what desire brought Laios to the dungeon:

And ends with a question of what desire brought Laios to the dungeon:

It's also very concerned in general with questions of why people do what they do. Why they are in the dungeon, why they are with the people they are with, why they stay, what they fight for.

In addition to Laios, we see it with Marcille...

Izutsumi

Kabru

and Mithrun

Hell, we even get it for the demon!

It's certainly not the only volume concerned with desires and motives, but it is particularly focused on these ideas.

The succubus scene fits quite well into the ongoing question about desires, especially Laios' desires. It is even placed at an interesting spot within the volume. The volume is six chapters long, and the scene takes place at the start of the 4th chapter. It's almost smack-dab in the middle.

With all this in mind, it is interesting that, with both versions of the succubus Marcille, it's not totally clear which parts of her Laios is rejecting.

The first version of Marcille looks human, but Laios attacks when he identifies her as a monster. The second Marcille looks like a monster, but he seems to believe that she is the real (human)(ish) person that he knows. So is he rejecting the monster at first, and then accepting the person? Or is he rejecting humanity and only interested in the monstrous?

Something to consider as we look at the next point...

3. the rest of the chapter is a seduction, too

This is one of those things that might not be apparent on a first reading, but is crystal clear on a revisit. We see the succubus try and charm Laios over 7 pages, and then see the Winged Lion do the same thing for the next 19.

Much like the succubus, it offers the mingling of monsters and humans. Much like the succubus, it offers belonging.

(and this is the point where I absolutely must also link this post by fumifooms on the succubus, which has some great ideas on how the scene is informed by Laios' trauma and desire for acceptance!!!)

But, back to the point. The Winged Lion wants to feed on Laios just as much as the succubus did, and it uses similar strategies to try and make that happen. Though this chapter isn't really the turning point for the next Lord of the Dungeon (it is Marcille who will, eventually, become the Lion's next victim), it certainly behaves like it is.

Laios is convinced. The succubus gets its meal. By the end of the volume, the reader begins to understand how concerning his desires are. Together, it is all very good at building up that sense of dread and pending disaster, as we see exactly how and why Laios might just fall into the Lion's open arms and bring about the end of the world.

-

So that's the three things I noticed. But there's still something I want to touch on by looking at the way these observations overlap, and what they reveal, together.

As I said, by the end of the volume, you can feel the tension growing. Just as Kabru and Mithrun do, you look back for an answer to the questions that have been built, chapter by chapter: why is Laios here? Where will his loyalties fall? This chapter, and scene, seem to prove the inevitable truth: he will choose the monster, of course. He will choose the seductive, easy power of the Winged Lion.

But the details of what actually happens tell different story: one in which the Lion is wrong.

First, as a reminder - even in Scylla Marcille mode, the succubus never fully entrances Laios. It convinces him, but it doesn't have him completely under its thrall.

Similarly, in the dream, the Lion does convince Laios to embrace the world he is offering. But even within that dream, Laios continues to ask questions that will be vital to him later. It is because of those questions that Laios comes to a new understanding about Thistle.

And it's this realization that he cites later as part of his reason for refusing the Lion's offer.

He is thinking through things the entire time, just like he continues to question the succubus even after it turns into Scylla Marcille.

Laios also expresses an interesting reason for why he wants to see the future of this world. He's not just invested because it would mean people liking what he likes, or him getting to spend time with monsters. The thought that comes immediately before his acceptance is about what he wants for monsters and people.

I don't think it's a coincidence that this statement - "we're living beings that share the same world, but all we can do is keep killing each other" - can apply to the various humans races just as much as it does to humans and monsters. The thing he is thinking about here isn't just a matter of his personal daydreams. It's an idea that underpins every conflict in the story.

Laios caring about how people as well as monsters in this manner is something that the Lion gets wrong every time. Even at the end, he still frames Laios' desires entirely around hating people and loving monsters.

The Lion has heard him express an opinion about the future of the world! It happened right there in the dream, right in front of him! He just didn't take it seriously, and didn't view it through any lens other than "Laios likes monsters more".

He's convinced that he understands how to get to Laios. Maybe the Lion can't truly see everything, or maybe his vision into everyone's deepest desires has made it hard for him to realize how much choice still matters. That people can, and do, choose which desires to act on, and how to act on them.

Whatever the case, he's wrong about Laios, and the story shows us this over and over again.

After all, look at how the succubus interaction plays out:

A monster uses Marcille to appeal to Laios...

He realizes that something about the situation is wrong, and rejects her.

It changes strategies, and makes new offer: to turn him into a monster.

It also assures him that his friends are, or will be, taken care of.

He accepts. Or rather, allows the monster to have its way with him.

But Laios is not as helpless as he initially appears, and what the Lion thinks is a successful seduction also contains the seed of an idea that will allow Laios to later resist him.

We even get to see Izutsumi playing a similar role in both instances, as the one person fully able to take action in the face to the illusion.

The story lays out what is going happen, and then explicitly tells us that the demon and the succubus are thematically related.

The chapter performs a great sleight of hand here - everything about it seems to indicate that Laios is doomed give in to the option to have his deepest desires realized. But if you look closer, it also contains the evidence that he won't. There's a lot more going on for him.

Yes, he still falls for obvious tricks. He is still extremely into monsters, and he still doesn't feel like he fits in with other people. He may, deep down, crave to surrender to the monstrous - to let it absorb him. But he questions more than he seems to. He considers more than people realize. He cares so much more than anyone gives him credit for.

And I think this is part of why we see the succubus called back to so many times, especially with the wolf head addition to his Monster Form, which he specifically added due to his encounter with the Scylla Marcille.

This all stays with Laios. It doesn't just foreshadow the path of the story, it is fundamental to how and why he walks that path. It's not about him choosing monsters, and it's not about him choosing people. It's about how he considers both, and cares about both.

And it's about the forces that think they already know his answer. Mithrun and Kabru. The Winged Lion. The succubus.

It's about how they are wrong.