#setup and payoff

[physalian]

Setup and Payoff as told by Independence Day

Laugh all you want but this movie is a masterclass in setup and payoff and I’m gonna show you why.

First, why does this matter? A good setup and a satisfying payoff helps a script or narrative feel tighter and more cohesive. It leaves no details dangling, no plot threads left unresolved, and it rewards the audience for paying attention when seemingly inconsequential lines or elements come back later in a meaningful way. Some elements in the movie carry more weight than others, but all start as either casual jokes or throwaway lines between characters and all hit later in a glorious cascade of narrative catharsis, much like the destruction of the alien fleet.

So!

The “victory dance” cigars, brought up first when the fighter pilots make their first attempt at destroying the ship over LA, gets its payoff when Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum are nuking the mother ship, and when they’re back on the ground safely.

President Pullman mourns the loss of LA, NYC, and DC and his office’s failure to issue a proper evacuation when they still could, saying it was easier when he was a fighter pilot taking orders. Payoff is the president joining the squad for the final battle in his own plane.

Will Smith promises his girlfriend’s son fireworks for the Fourth. The “fireworks” end up being the burning wreckage of the alien fleet.

Randy Quaid’s character is convinced aliens abducted him and nobody believes him. Payoff is him flying kamikaze into the alien ship’s main gun, blowing it up with his famous quote “Hello boys, I’m back!”

Jeff Goldbum’s character is an environmentalist, doing his small part to try and save the planet. He gets his chance by nuking the mothership.

Will Smith’s character gets rejected by NASA to join the space program, and then flies an alien fighter jet into space.

President Pullman’s wife calls him a bad liar on their first phone conversation, and then payoff comes when he tells her she’s going to be fine, as she’s dying in her hospital bed.

The slimy ex-CIA aide Nimziki wants to nuke the aliens, and ends up nuking his career.

Goldblum’s first scene is a game of chess, and chess metaphors pop up constantly as his method of explaining the aliens’ plan.

And I’m sure I’m missing some.

This movie is corny popcorn blockbuster fun, made during a time before 9/11 when blowing up national monuments in fiction wasn’t tainted with grim reality. But you know what? It’s fiercely, stubbornly optimistic. There’s no racism, sexism, or religious bigotry. There’s even a gay dude and a funny gay joke. He dies, but so do billions of other people. In this movie, it’s the White sidekick (Jimmy, Will Smith’s pilot friend) who dies, not the Black character (of more than just one). In this movie, there's multiple competent women who aren't just damsels in distress. And it's from 1996.

Yeah you can be a cynic and call it American military propaganda and complain about the idea that the Americans are the first ones to figure out the aliens’ weakness like the whole world was waiting on them to do so. You can complain about how the solution to deliver an Earth-based computer virus to alien technology isn’t how any of this works but this is a movie that knows exactly how ridiculous it is and will remain far more memorable and beloved than “gritty” alien invasion movies.

Yeah, Independence Day has an agenda—unity in the face of unrelenting adversity. And in the capitalist hellscape we find ourselves in, sue me, I’m nostalgic.

[sarahthecoat]

yep. and there is not a wasted moment in s2, as neil said they had to cut ten+ mins from each episode to divert budget to the covid measures.

I think "Bad Writing on Purpose" is a misnomer.

And people focus too much on it.

First of all, I really don't understand why people were surprised by the cliffhanger. Everyone was talking about how Neil said season 2 was going to be "quiet, gentle, and romantic" but nobody noticed that he also, on multiple occasions, wrote that season 2 was not the sequel he and Terry plotted, but what needed to happen to get the characters to where they needed to be at the start of what they plotted as the book sequel but would now be season 3. He was always completely open that season 2 was a bridge, and after reading it here and there before season 2 came out, I for one knew that season 2 would most likely end with a cliffhanger.

I mean, I surely didn't know we would get OFMD-ed, that was indeed a surprise, but I knew there would be a cliffhanger. Why didn't you?

Now I have read ariaste's famous 15 000 word essay. I find her theory quite brilliant. I don't think she will be (totally) right about it, it's too specific and too reliant on her assumption of how the Book of Life works. I also disagree with some of the details of what she calls "bad writing". Especially Maggie might just be portrayed as a dork neurodivergent. And some of her visual "clues" already turned out to be simple homages. (Not "The Crow Road", though, I think. Yes, Neil and Terry were friends with Ian Banks. But he has written like 40+ books, why choose THAT one, the one that deals in part with people solving a mystery by going through old documents, just after we are shown that Aziraphale keeps diaries and definitely leaves them in the bookshop when he's going to heaven? Even if we ascribe its first appearance to the famous opening line which Gabriel reads aloud, why show the same book a second time, mid-frame?)

Also, yes, I disliked that Aziraphale's & Crowley's new first meeting put them on the wrong foot with each other, when their meeting in Eden had established them as kinda instant co-conspirators from the very beginning. The same with Crowley in the Job episode being the one to introduce Aziraphale to worldly pleasures instead of him discovering them on his own. But that is sometimes what happens when you learn more about characters from new canon, sometimes it doesn't fit your established headcanon. You either roll with it or you choose to ignore that part of canon.

But I do think she is on the right track. And the most important thing that ariaste pointed out is still the missing/unsatisfying payoffs and the unfired Chekov's Guns, which I am pretty sure is the very reason this season felt so "off" for most of us and why ariastes theory found so much resonance. But I wouldn't call that Bad Writing. I would call that at most Weird Writing Choices. Especially if

you view the whole of season 2, the bridge season, the quiet gentle and romantic interlude, as one. giant. setup.

Having Aziraphale use his never-before-mentioned halo as a deus-ex-machina option to defeat the demons in his bookshop is a weird writing choice. Especially when we know we have a literal Chekov's - Derringer - Gun hidden somewhere in there, which is not being used. Mentioning the Book of Life several times and have it be of no consequence, Crowley even doubting that it really exists, is another unfired gun. The Nazi-Zombies, which are somehow left to their own devices and never mentioned again, could be a Chekhov's Gun - and I feel a lot better knowing now that yes, the living dead are apparently part (a sign?) of The Second Coming.

But it isn't bad writing. It is setting up season 3. It has always been about setting up season 3. We got a nice, little, quiet gentle and romantic, fan-fictionesque Ineffable Bureaucracy main plot to go with it, but that was never the raison d'etre for season 2. It's main purpose was always to set. up. season. three.

After all, most paraphrasings of "Chekov's Gun" speak of acts. If a gun is shown in act 1, it has to be fired in act 2. If a gun is shown in one act, it has to be fired the following. If we look at Good Omens as a 3-act-story, with one season being one act, then all the Chekov's Guns were shown to us in act 2, and are not required to go off until act 3 - meaning season 3.

All of you who dismiss this and go "no one ever wrote bad on purpose just to fix it in the next season, why not accept this season was just bad" are missing the point, because you fixate on the "bad writing on purpose" misnomer. It's not bad writing. It's delayed gratification. It's setting up a payoff over more than one season. Which you can absolutely do if you have a plan, if you know where your story is going. It is what everyone still seems to expect from J.J. Abrams, even though we should know better by now. His setups never pay off, because he sets up things he never intends to resolve, never even has an idea about how they could be resolved, and keeps getting away with it. And yet, the overwhelming presence of his shitty writing in media has probably screwed with our expectations from mystery shows, which thanks to him are not very high. But I truly believe that Neil Gaiman (and John Finnemore, a frickin' COMEDY writer, for whom the setup-payoff concept must actually be like breathing) are both simply better than that windbag. There will be a payoff. Only later.

I believe we will come back to the halo. Aziraphale's Derringer Gun will be fired. The Book of Life will have meaning, even if it is different from what we might theorize. The Zombies will at least be mentioned. And I think even the weirdly framed and then forgotten Eccles cakes will make another appearance. We will have an actual, big-stakes gen plot next season. Aziraphale & Crowley will be stopping another apocalypse. It will have to do with Crowley's "all of us against all of them" line from season 1. It will have Anathema & Newt (I remember one Tumblr ask before season 2 where Neil was asked if they would come back for season 2, and he answered no, but they would hopefully be in season 3), and I personally think they're gonna regret burning that second book from Agnes. Crowley & Aziraphale will not have much time to talk about their relationship or to feel sorry for themselves, as a lot of fans seem to expect. This will not be fan-service, this will not be fan-fictionesque. The bigger picture is the second apocalypse and once again saving humanity, and saving earth. Doing that, Crowley & Aziraphale will find common ground again, they will find each other again. They will end up in their shared cottage in the South Downs, openly in love, and everything will be ok. I don't know exactly how, and I don't want to speculate too much, because that almost always ends up with me being disappointed by how canon actually turns out.

But I believe in Neil Gaiman. I believe he cares. I believe he might even care more about "Good Omens" than about any other of his creations. And I believe in the Brilliance of John Finnemore. I don't believe that he would have let Neil get away with these setups without real payoffs if he didn't see the point of them.

(And if Amazon and their greedy CEO/shareholders are the reason we won't get a third season, you'll hear about me in the news, I swear. 😡)

[yoru-kage]

Benoit Blanc is utterly delightful pass it on

[dyleeart]

moomin fandom mood

[veveisveryuncool]

HII ok so would anyone believe me if i said i'm like 17 pages into my Moominvalley S4 rewrite......

yeah so! here are some fake storyboards i've come up with for a few of the episodes i have plotted out! right now, i've only got about half the episodes with a rough plot, but i've written a crap ton of analysis for each character arc, episode, and overall narrative and how they could be improved, especially since i felt really... unsatisfied with the final season? it didn't feel like a satisfying conclusion to the characters nor story as a whole (due to a lottt of problems, but i think i've rambled about them for too long lol), so i plan to rewrite that fourth season through a mix of art and writing to attempt to give this show the impactful ending it deserves :]

[generalluxun]

I'm glad someone tackled the 'you didn't have to write it this way' for CB/E argument already, but I want to add one more on that vein.

Writing it that way explicitly sets up a finalé where Adrien *is* there. Those two seeds: once to introduce an idea, a second time to reinforce the idea, are the exact setup for a proper narrative subversion (not the twist Nonsense luke Kagami is a senti)

Let me elaborate:

In each instance what is the key element of the moment of akumatization? Adrien is alone. We get the golf swing into the Eiffel tower in CB, then just plain isolation in Ephemeral (the escalation here reinforces the point)

Now you have all the room in between those episodes and the finale. You have CN supporting LB in strike back. You have CN saving Marinette from being akumatized, you have Adrien supporting Marinette through her relationship fears. All that growth.

It's the perfect setup for a Gabe reveal where the difference is: Marinette.

This is where you show how much they've grown. This is where you show yin and yang. This is where you show partners. This is where she supports *him* in the crisis and *together* they are stronger. *Together* they overcome the narrative crisis and the knight saves the princess not by slaying the dragon, but by giving her the strength to face the dragon that has held her(him) prisoner.

That

is how you write a satisfying narrative conclusion to the Agreste arc that *still* emphasizes Marinette and the difference she makes in people's lives.

And all the pieces were right there to use. It's obvious, it's perfectly thematic for ML. It doesn't take the spotlight off Marinette. It took me about five minutes before I even had my coffee to weave it together.

The only reason a whole writing team couldn't manage it is they didn't *want* to. They're still so desperately hidebound by their 'reverse fairy tale' gimmick that perfectly preserves the concept of binary unequal gender roles, thinking that simply flipping them is so *brilliantly* progressive.

20 yrs ago called and wants it's 'enlightenment' back.

'Omg it was so vile to keep Adrien away from the final fight against hawkmoth. Can't believe they did this'

YALL WHAT DO YOU THINK THE POINT OF CHAT BLANC AND EPHEMERAL WERE!?!?!?

Adrien cannot fight his father. He can't do it. Not only because he's a fucking sentimonster, bit because Gabriel can take advantage of him so easily when he reveals its all for his mother.

'But he fought his father in Representation' but he wasn't being faced between the prospect of betraying his only family or betraying the love of his life then. He was just an angry teenager who had been pulled from his home. No moral dilemma just anger.

Adrien is not emotionally intelligent enough to chose between his mother and Marinette.

If Adrien was there, they would have fucking lost. THAT was the point of Chat Blanc and Ephemeral.

[bonefall]

Heyyyy since there's talk of the Breezepelt Attacking Poppyfrost scene going around, I just wanna remind people that he explicitly does that because he was groomed by the Dark Forest. Jayfeather points it out on the page that Breezepelt's stated motivation doesn't make sense, because it's not actually a rational idea Breezy-P came up with. It's then shown that actual factual evil demons are exploiting the anger he has from being a victim of child abuse, to indoctrinate and manipulate him into radical violence

I wrote a little essay about this with citations and stuff. It wasn't "for no reason," and anyone who tries to use the scene as "evidence" of Breezepelt being Secretly Evil to justify the abuse he underwent as a kid either didn't read it, has bad reading comprehension skills, or is cherrypicking on purpose.

Crowfeather emotionally and physically abused his child, Breezepelt was socially alienated by WindClan as a result, which leads to this moment. That is what is on the page.

[demonic-mnemonic]

The Ineffable fandom right now

[nakataseigis]

2x08 | 3x04 | THAT MOMENT

[schreibfederlaerm]

other people after seeing deadpool & wolverine: *replaying the honda odyssey scene in their head, perhaps adding a little smut, as a treat* (the correct way)

me after seeing deadpool & wolverine: *shifting plot points just a liiiiittle to the left to unlock Themes and Parallels without completely changing the movie* (objectively the worst way, i'm not sleeping)

[zhoras-bitch]

Rereading the first few episodes of WTC with the foreknowledge of who Nova is and what her actual goals are is so satisfying. I saw some of the foreshadowing that made me go hmmm on my first read, but I did not realise just how many hints there were. Let me tell you, there are so many lines that have a double meaning. In Nova's internal monologues in particular, like, 'She already knew what she had to do' etc. etc. And seeing what they try to appear as vs what they actually mean at the same time is incredibly fun.

[rainbow-crane]

the wasted fucking opportunity for Makoto to be the only one who listens to and believes Hiro during ch 3 after he himself was framed in the first case

they should've found Hiro before the stolen bodies, and worked together in the investigation to find the proof of his innocence and established a bond!! instead of him being gone until almost the end and Makoto just barely giving a fuck like hello I thought the survivors were supposed to be friends w/ each other by the end and this was a perfect opportunity they gave themselves and just DIDN'T USE????

[centaurianthropology]

Why C3E51 worked so well (a DM’s perspective)

I have seen a lot of absolutely bananas critiques of C3E51 (thankfully not nearly as many around here, far more on Reddit, which I should not have visited).   And the ongoing theme of those critiques is that Matt should not have imperiled former PCs, and if he brought them in should have either done lengthy side-bars with those characters or let them win the fight against Ludinis and have a chance to take him out themselves, since they’re ‘god tier’ or ‘high level’ and that makes ‘logical sense’.  What these critiques really boil down to, IMO, are people who were really invested in the former campaigns upset that their faves didn’t get to do cool things, treating it more like a TV show than a game.  But even as a TV show, that would have been disappointing from a narrative perspective.  Because even in a TV show, this is a sequel spin-off show, starring new characters.  The story is about THEM.  And more importantly, the game is about the players and about telling their story.

So let’s break this down from a DM perspective.  How do you build a Kobiashi Maru situation for your characters?  For those of you who aren’t familiar, the Kobiashi Maru is a Star Trek term for a scenario designed from the jump to be unwinnable (Kirk beat it by creativity, but later admitted that he missed the point of it).  In Star Trek this was done to test what a future officer would do if faced with certain failure.  In a D&D game it’s a little more complicated.  Part of it is to set up the BBEG, put their plan in motion, and set the stage for the next leg of the game.  But it’s also to give your players, who are clearly into it, a darkest-hour scenario.  Not every player group is going to be into facing down the Kobiashi Maru, and it’s clear from the aforementioned critiques that a lot of them are on Reddit.  Power-gamers who always want to win are not going to enjoy this sort of storytelling, but players who are really into RP and working through difficult times and failures will eat this stuff up.  And this is absolutely the sort of table playing on Critical Role.  There is a level of trust there that can only be built after years of working together, and this was finally the moment when Matt could pay off years of planning and campaign-spanning set-up.

Matt carefully plotted the structure of this episode out to give maximum agency and impact to a party of dramatically under-leveled characters.  And they knew going in they were under-leveled.  This wasn’t a surprise, but a potential suicide run by people who knew they weren’t the heroes they needed to be, but were the only heroes in the right place at the right time to try anything.  So they came up with as good a plan as they could, and executed it fairly well, all things considered.  

They knew they couldn’t take on Ludinus directly (and this was a great way to demonstrate exactly how much he had planned and how long, to bring in elements from C2, hints we’ve had for years about Ludinis, only to reveal it went deeper than any of the characters could have imagined), so Matt gave them some winnable objectives.  This is a great way to keep the characters invested in an unwinnable scenario: the ultimate outcome may be beyond the characters, barring some insane genius or incredible rolls, but they can still help.  They can do something that will have a tangible impact on events and hinder the baddies enough to give them another chance at a rematch and a way to stop the apocalypse when they’re higher level.  So Matt gave them the batteries: take out as many as you can.  While this would not stop the ritual, I suspect that the more they took out the more Ludinis would have to drain his own power to make the key work, and the longer the process would take.  Knocking out the feywild key, as well as multiple power sources turned what would have been an instantaneous event if they had done nothing into a more drawn-out affair which, I suspect, could be stopped or even reversed.  It gave them a window to come back and demand a rematch.

Then we have the high-level PC allies, and how to play with those sorts of characters without pulling focus from the PCs.  Matt handled this very well, by having the players roll for their former PCs, taking the specifics of their actions out of his hands and letting the dice of the former players decide.  He also revealed that Keyleth’s involvement, and baiting Vax with Otohan’s permadeath poison, was key to Ludinis’ ritual, which was why she couldn’t just dive in and clean everything up.  But again, because of this story, it ties less back to Keyleth and more back to Orym.  That was the point of the attack on Zephrah, to get her attention by getting her to look into who did it and then coming to get some payback, but the little guy on the ground has always been caught in the middle.  Orym has been Ludinis’ unwitting pawn from the off, his family’s deaths merely a means to an end, and that is vicious and amazing set-up for character growth for him.  

Beau and Caleb had to be there by the logic of the story.  It didn’t make sense that Caleb would sit out a world-ending event orchestrated by a Cerberus Assembly member after spending years trying to take them down.  Beau would obviously go with him.  It also made sense that they would be the only two there, because they were scouting when Ryn got taken down, and after that were trying to keep a low profile.  Shit accelerated too fast for them to call in reinforcements.

Which is the in-story reason for them to be there, but isolated and vulnerable, making them useful allies and wildcards (who likely could have been more useful if ultimately failing as well, but failed early thanks to Liam and Marisha’s rolls).  But they were still outmatched.  I have no idea what the challenge rating of Otohan, Leliana, and Ludinis are, but we know Otohan was considered ‘beatable’ back in Bassuras.  That indicates she’s the lowest CR, particularly with the glowing weak-spot on her back.  But she can still wreck a level-20 PC if she gets the jump on her, which she did.  And that meant that she remained a massive threat.  Caleb and Beau were playing it smart, keeping to the shadows, but still got caught by Leliana.  Between dice rolls, careful planning, and some great enemy design, Matt really set up a team that could take on high-level players and win.  And he made it clear that Ludinis did not leave this to chance.  He has the best people he could muster after 1000 years of planning.  Nothing short of a miracle could have truly stopped them.

Which is why we cut back to Bells Hells.  Because ultimately this particular story isn’t about Keyleth or Vax or Caleb or Beau or any other former PCs.  This is about the current party being caught up in events much larger than them and having to rise to the occasion.  This is the story of the schmucks sent in to take out the batteries, but who have personal beef with the big bads.  Ludinis orchestrated the plan to attack Zephrah to bait Keyleth and draw out Vax, and Otohan carried it out.  And he used Orym as a pawn throughout all of it.  This makes taking them down, but especially taking Otohan down, the cornerstone of Orym’s personal quest.  Letting an NPC take her down would be taking away a critical part of his motivation and goals, which is an absolute no-no for a DM.  NEVER bring in a god-tier NPC and take away player agency or story beats.  Especially never have them resolve important player goals and backstory events!  Every NPC, even the powerful ones, are there to support the story the players are telling.  So of course Keyleth wasn’t going to take out Otohan.  Of course she wasn’t going to stop the ritual.  Beau and Caleb might have been able to do something more if Liam and Marisha hadn’t rolled so badly for them, but ultimately, they had to get caught or fail in another way.  

For the sake of gameplay, Bell’s Hells had to be the only functional team.  They had to be the ants that were beneath Ludinis’ notice long enough to really accomplish something.  And as much as it feels like they failed, they had minor victories: Laudna and Ashton took out more batteries, making Ludinis drain his own power to kick off the apocalypse.  They only failed to take out Otohan’s backpack by 2 HP, which showed them that she was an achievable goal in the future.  If they had rolled a little better, they probably could have taken her out entirely, which would have felt like a big accomplishment for them.  Imogen made her mother pause in her assault before doubling down.  This leaves open very interesting future beats for their interactions.  Can she ultimately redeem her mother or would she have to take her out?  Every step that Matt set up in this episode, from the reveals about Ludinis’ plans and Orym’s past, to Imogen’s interactions with her mother, to Chetney and likely Ashton finding themselves staring down their own backstories after the party split, was focused on this party, on getting them ready to step out of low-level play and advance.

And that’s the point of E51.  It’s not a climax of the story, but the ultimate set-up.  It’s putting all the pieces onto the board in a way that all the characters can now recognize.  Yes, unless the players came up with something genius, the apocalypse was going to kick off, but their actions slowed everything down to a place where it could be combatted.  Yes, the god-tier former PCs were always going to get neutered, because this is Bells Hells’ story, and you cannot have NPCs fix PC problems.  They might have been able to do a little more before this happened, but the dice rolled.

And it’s honestly good for the PCs how things turned out.  They have a clear objective, but are split up.  This gives them great incentive to level up, explore character backstory, deal with their personal shit, get stronger, and then come back to kick the asses of all three of these villains (or possibly redeem one, we’ll see).  Their powerful allies are now temporarily side-lined.  Keyleth is badly hurt and will need time to recover.  Caleb is collared and will need time to get that removed.  Beau is likely up and moving now, but will need to safeguard Caleb for a while.

The Bells Hells are on their own.  The Darkest Hour has come, and it’s time for them to rise up and go from nobodies to heroes.  This is their true call to adventure.  And as a DM, it was so cool seeing how Matt set up all the pieces over the campaign, only to pay them out in such a satisfying and motivating way in this episode.

[bayetea]

I'm gonna froth at the mouth over this in the tags so bear with me but reason #1278038 why the way rick went about breaking up jiper was bad: rereading her povs in hoo where she gushes over jason feels like even more of an unreliable narrator queer girl comphet psychological horror story

[areyoudoingthis]

"fishermen and pirates are nothing alike" is actually such a heartbreaking line because in his own silly way he's telling stede that he thinks they're incompatible now because they want entirely different things from life and he doesn't believe he's worth more to stede than piracy and glory so he'll just walk away first this time before stede has the chance to leave him again

[blueskyscribe]

"Oh man, Earthspark Starscream could have had a redemption arc--" REDEMPTION FROM WHAT? We have no idea who he is or what he's done.

I want so badly to love Earthspark but the pacing has been whack since the first season.