bonefall

[bonefall]

so what I'm getting is thar nightstar is the Joe Biden of shadowclan

Nightstar: "I wouldn't have picked vice deputy Brokenstar to be vice deputy if I didn't think she wasn't absolutely capable of it."

Tangleburr: "bro dym cinderfur 💀"

Runningnose: "Cinderfur is dead, he means Tigerclaw."

Deerfoot: *constructing an elaborate fantasy in his head involving a car driving off the road and right through the camp and hitting nightstar and runningnose and tigerclaw exactly 9 times*

[bonefall]

I was thinking about your tags, and while I understand the caution, it feels like it would still be a stretch to baseline equate common traits among the clans with eugenics. I know that humans can rly quickly go from everyone has biological differences = there are innate qualities that are "good" and "bad", and there's a quality of fascism in that, but when the clans are fairly isolationist, it seems like it'd be natural for there to be trends among its members.

this is also just me prompting for your thoughts on biology and politics surrounding that, since i appreciate your thoughts on fascism in warriors overall.

I think you're missing a piece in your takeaway that I'm more conscious of-- it's not that I'm wary of population genetics and natural trends; it's that the Clans have an obsession with "blood purity" paired with that.

When you introduce "subspecies" Clans to that, cats who are truly biologically suited to a particular environment, you are inevitably narratively connecting the rhetoric to this worldbuilding fact. Unless you're going to massively overhaul the theme and setting of Warrior Cats, to me it's like looking at xenophobic characters that say "mingling with out-groups is bad" and announcing, "I AM GOING TO GIVE THEM PHRENOLOGY BUT REAL."

Even canon is wise enough to not do this-- Graystripe shows in TPB that it's the oily diet that makes RiverClan's fur so water-resistant. WindClan's lanky legs never get more extreme than a general population trend; enough Clans have skinny warriors that you wouldn't "clock" mixed cats like Jayfeather and his siblings.

But in making those Clan differences MEGA extreme, suddenly, you have taken the irrational social bigotry and turned it into a potentially legitimate practical concern about adeptness in an environment. Not just against an individual, but against that individual's population.

As an example of what I mean, imagine if RiverClan had special, extreme adaptations to living in water. Let's say they're webbed-foot cats who can close their orifices like seals and their coat is twice as thick to keep the water out.

Outcrossing to another Clan means hybrid kittens display the opposite of hybrid vigor-- hybrid depression.

Without webbed feet, other cats are always slower swimmers than their counterparts

Hybrids have thinner fur, making them lose heat in cold water much faster, requiring them to eat more to stay healthy or get sick more often.

They may not have the same muscles to close their orifices, meaning they're more likely to damage their senses by swimming in dirty water.

You can reduce disadvantages with accessibility technology in a more advanced setting like BB, but... they are still born significantly disadvantaged, compared to a ""pure blood"" RiverClan cat.

Doing this also says something you might not have realized you've said at all; Your population is proof of evolutionary pressure. Highly specialized genetics like this (not just trends but HIGHLY specialized) implies there's been something preventing the genetics of other Clans from intermixing with RiverClan.

Which has two implications;

The hypothetical RiverClan cats achieved a positive goal by self-inflicting a selective breeding program onto themselves. (...eugenics. that's eugenics.)

The hypothetical RiverClan environment is so harsh and demanding that it will naturally, swiftly eliminate unfit phenotypes. (The river totally cancels out any secret outcrossing)

(as a side note, ppl tend to misunderstand evolution. Darwin wasn't totally right with "survival of the fittest," I prefer Bill Nye's description of "survival of the good enough." But that's a topic for another time)

Either way, I find those implications DEEPLY unfitting for BB. This is a project which has major themes of exploring bigotry, showcasing its irrationality and digging into how it's perpetuated and exploited in spite of that.

I think BB's themes have a better clarity of purpose if the physical differences between Clans are kept subtle. Never more extreme than what you'd see between ethnic groups-- with frequent reminders about how culture, environment, and politics shape behaviors more than genetics do.

Don't misunderstand me-- I'm not saying that every setting with physical differences between races/sapient species is doomed to this. I actually have good things to say about certain artworks that lean into it (Steven Universe, Beastars, Oren's Forge). I'm saying this specifically about WC and my work within that context.

If you're curious though, I actually have a loose set of "rules" in my head to try and keep my Clans' population differences within my own critiques! I've given a lot more thought to this than I've shared.

There are no "unique" Clan mutations, any trait could appear within any hypothetical kitten.

It's a matter of prevalence. ThunderClan is like 80% Sweetness Tolerant and the other clans are between like 15% - 60%. It's not a sign your mate cheated on you if your kitten likes honey.

But it is something that an accusation can be based on, if your mate is insecure or the Clan's politics are going sour. A "pedigree" RiverClan cat could still have a mane, and it can get used against them.

Some traits do help or hinder ability slightly (ex; thick tails making RiverClan cats better at steering in water), but typically not significantly. I Just Keep It Reasonable.

Most importantly, I just make an effort to have most traits be based on social behavior. Reflect enough and eventually you sorta train your brain to think differently. As a bonus, it helps with cultural worldbuilding.

Related: If you found this insightful, I also dove into fascism and TigerClan in a way that's relevant to this.

[bonefall]

Is Heartstar being small typical to Shadowclan, or is she just independently tiny? Which clan would be the largest or smallest?

She's actually just tiny, and it's very odd for her her entire bloodline. Her grandfathers in BB are Tigerstar and Brokenstar, who were notoriously massive. Her parents, Tawnypelt and Rowanstar, inherited that size.

Maybe Heartstar inherited it from Rowan's mom, Newtspeck. Her uncle Littlecloud is also pretty small. Heartstar is smaller, though.

By weight, ShadowClan is actually the smallest though. It's a result of the harsh winter conditions of a freezing marsh, and the benefit of being less heavy on soggy, unstable ground.

RiverClan is the shortest Clan, though. I try to consistently design them so that they're longer than they are tall. Thick tails, stout legs, small ears. Notably otter-like.

[bonefall]

I feel like I enjoy Heartstar so much more than canon! Tigerheartstar 😭😭 idk what it is. Maybe the power of lesbianism.

Overwhelming power of TRANSGENDER lesbianism. It's the most powerful substance we have on this gay little earth.

To be fair though I am a fan of canon!Tigerheartstar, too. He keeps things interesting. He has consistent flaws, is willing to take drastic action when other leaders won't, and is generally uninterested in being polite. It causes him to introduce conflict when other characters would bite their tongues-- so I love seeing him on-screen.

If anything, I just make BB!tigerHeartstar 20% more dramatic about it. I love overconfident, morally questionable women lmao.

Could also be some of the fixes I made to early Tigerpaw, too. She's born later so that she's a younger sibling of Dawnpelt and Flametail, more in line with Dovepaw's age. A cross-Clan peer, of sorts.

I'm hoping to push out a Beaver Quest Post soonish (after the ASC wrap-up and ShadowClan Family Tree), too. Really delve into the details of Dovepaw and Tigerpaw's introduction to each other, and how the OotS Beaver Mission is different in BB.

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Heartstar, crawling out of the moonpool: I’m gonna have the COOLEST party

Heartstar: "dOVEWJNG IM GOING TO THROW A HREUGH PARTY. BAUHGH CAUGHPHF DOVEWING. DOVEWING THERE’S GOING TO BE HAIFGH BLEGHF BALLOONS. AND STREAMERS DOVEWING."

Dovewing, not catching much of it because of her hearing problems, drying off her tiny wife with a PNG of a towel: "yes love."

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would heartstar get an anointment or would her unorthadox way of getting her lives be considered her anointment?

The way her dad drowned in the Moonpool to ressurect the corpse of his last child and she's reborn as Heartstar, breaking the holy surface of the water coughing and sputtering, is probably good enough.

...for SOME OTHER LOSER. Heartstar is too cunty to not throw a party and invite everyone.

If I add Stardust Anointments, I'll probably update the last scene of Heartstar's Rise to be during her party lmao. She was already anointed by the Moonpool for that first one, but in subsequent years she sends someone to go fetch some holy water for the "renewal of the vows," so to speak.

[bonefall]

I know it’s just an idea, the leader ritual, but I have questions I thought of immediately

If a leader prior was driven out, would they still use the exiled leader’s lives as reference for the ceremony?

If a leader is exiled without having lost a life, what would they do instead?

Did Tigerclaw just get pollen a single time for Nightstar, who didn’t actually have his lives, or get stuff representing Brokenstar, or since he was exiled, would was he cleansed with Raggedstar’s lives?

Also it’s a metal as h*ck image imagining Blackfoot being welcomed in a shower of blood for every life Tigerstar had taken that day. It’s such a powerful image in my head, standing there as the blood runs down his fur yet he remains standing there unflinching, face unreadable.

Hmmm...

Previous Leader Driven Out

This is the kind of complex situation where it would depend on what sort of message the new leader wants to send. How much of the Clan stands behind them? Are they trying to court those who don't support them, or are they trying to shame them with what they did?

BB!Nightstar would want to court them, which frustrates the cats who actually put him in power. Deerfoot would have demanded he be anointed by Brokenstar's victims. Let the Clan see the rotten blood and grave soil of WindClan cats and ShadowClan warriors alike; impossible to tell which droplet comes from who.

But instead, Nightstar has someone slash open his forehead. His own blood anoints his fur. "The blood of the rebels who drove him away." A signal that such radical behavior is behind them, a return to normal.

Deerfoot, in the crowd, wishes he would bleed himself dry for it.

In general though-- it would be pretty rare for this ceremony to ignore a previous leader, legitimate or not. The purpose is to "clean away" that which came before, like ending an era. For example; if Icestar chooses to be anointed in acknowledgement of Mistystar instead of Splashstar, she would be including Splashstar's brief rule within her own era.

(Which could be a choice worth making, if she has a point to make.)

Peacefully Abdicated

This is a shameful thing to Clan Cats. You are given your lives to die for your Clan 9 times. This ritual would be pretty extreme, because the new Star REALLY wants to scrub away that association.

It would probably use salt. In the old territory, this is one of the rarest and most useful substances they have. It's a flavoring, it's an effective parasite killer, it's an antiseptic for wounds. Anointment by gold dust, essentially.

For Pinestar, they might use crushed up kibble for a clean break. Tigerkit formative memory unlocked; Sunstar standing on the highrock, furious and disgusted, brown dust streaked through his golden fur and quivering on his angry whiskers.

What was Tigerstar anointed with?

Pollen for Nightstar's illness. Runningnose wouldn't want to jeopardize Tigerstar's legitimacy by revealing the fact Nightpelt was unblessed. ShadowClan cannot go another day without strong leadership...

Especially not in BB where there's a non-zero chance Runny violently smothered Nightstar for briefly looking like he was about to survive his plague LOL. He has immense self control but every time he looks at Nightstar he's biting back the I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream hate speech.

(It massively amuses me that every member of the Mudlizard Family in BB hates Nightstar for completely different reasons. You cant mention politics at Cat Thanksgiving unless youre cursing Nightstar.)

[bonefall]

question about the holy stardust idea. would the blood (for murder death) be the blood of the dead leader or the blood of the upcoming leader

The blood of the dead leader, in most cases. If the Clan had managed to kill their murderer in revenge, then the blood of the killer would be used.

The corpse being returned to the Clan of origin would completely be a matter of politics. It's a show of "goodwill" to only take enough to anoint the next leader while returning the body to their mourning family. As a BB example, Waspstar would have Harrybrook take Juniperclaw's heart or liver, but allow Heartstar to take her nephew home.

For BB!Blackstar, Scourge is alive in BB and generally the narrative makes a point about the fact he killed Tigerstar in self-defense. I think it's a lot more potent for his anointment to be done with Tigerstar's blood as a result.

A sort of subversion. Normally it is an honor to be anointed with the blood of the previous leader-- but this blood is being used as that of a killer's. He brought this on himself. Cleanse yourself of him, with him.

[bonefall]

I'm trying to sleep but suddenly got plagued by a vision for a cool WC ceremony idea and had to write it down

What if a new leader, before or after getting their 9 lives, had to undergo a sort of ritualistic "cleansing" by being "anointed" by holy "stardust?" The dust in question being tied to the way the previous leader lost their final life;

Fire = Anointment by ash

Sickness = Anointment by pollen

Murder = Anointment by blood

Drowning = Anointment by water

Etc

Something about needing to "wash" the new set of lives, so they can shine unmarred by the misfortune of the previous star. Could also get combined with the funeral for the old leader-- maybe as a sort of Clanwide blessing before the deputy goes to get their lives.

Perhaps even turning into an annual celebration for that particular leader, used to remind the other Clans that they've ruled for another full turn of the seasons. A way to flex their Clan's support and their shared achievements.

[bonefall]

will gorse and lizard stay in thunderclan in BB?

(Magic 8Ball Voice) It seems likely

This is with caveats though-- I'm committed to two major changes;

Gorseclaw was previously cut from the LakexLizard litter, because the Dapple/Hare/Soft survivor drama works a lot better with only three very relevant siblings

Lizardtail and Hollowflight were merged into Hallowflight, a Dark Forest trainee who swam across the lake to warn the Clans that the DF was planning to attack kittens

Hallowflight is going to be the one who goes down in a fight with Splashstar, Harelight is staying alive in BB. Whether his dad sacrificed himself for him, or he's just watched another family member get bled dry by a tyrant, Harelight's done with RiverClan. In BB!TBC, he went into the Dark Forest to fight Ashfur as a Light in the Mist. So this is the loss of a very significant warrior.

Gorseclaw... for one, if they come back, they are going to get a Conflict Rename. There's a much more significant historical figure named Gorseclaw (adopted brother of Ripplestar), so this Gorseclaw needs a new one. There's also enough Gorse suffixes, imo.

For two, I don't want to put them back into HallowxLake's litter. I just don't need him there when Harelight being the last survivor of his family works so well, both for bloodline diversity and for the drama.

SO I'm thinking of aging Gorseclaw down to kitten or apprentice during BB!ASC, and having them be the child of Harelight. Part of the choice of moving Clans being, "I will not have my only child become a warrior for the Clan that killed its whole family."

If so, then I might change Gorseclaw to Coarseclaw, a reference to their fur texture and an indirect naming for their dead auncles. The litter all had matching hair names before Harelight got an Honor Title-- Dappletuft, Softpelt, Harefur.

There will also probably be further population shuffles, both for RiverClan and elsewhere. ThunderClan does NOT need Wafflepaw. They barely even use Stormcloud and they JUST got Sunbeam too. Finish what's on your plate before you get second helpings of fresh outsider cats

At the end of BB!ASC, I want an exodus from RiverClan. Some from other Clans will join, but many will leave. There needs to be lasting consequences from this arc, right now it honestly feels like the writing team has set it up so there won't be, and that's frustrating.

[bonefall]

Gorseclaw and Lizardtail being forced to go back to Riverclan drives me up a fucking wall. RIVERCLAN HAS NOT CARED FOR THIS FAMILY. We don’t know what happened to Lakeheart but we do know what happened to the rest of the family! Dappletuft was killed for trying to kill The Imposter as part of Stemleaf’s murder party who got no Vigil and was “treated like a rogue” after his death. Softpelt also dies fighting FOR the imposter because Mistystar fought with Thunderclan and Icewing growls about how she fought for the imposter IN FRONT OF HER FAMILY AT THE VIGIL. And finally Harelight who was exiled from Riverclan for daring to disobey Mistystar in the battle his sister died in, he goes back after the imposter is defeated and lives there for a while before being murdered in cold blood by Splashtail. Considering Splashtail’s villainous streak we have no clue if Harelight got a vigil or not. And after all of this Thunderclan tells them “but Riverclan is your home! You need to go rebuild it!” As if they owe Riverclan anything for what happened to their family this past year or so. Let cats that have been done wrong by a clan leave the damn clan!

REAL

The only thing that Lizardtail and Gorseclaw seem to miss is... the sky. Eating fish. These are things easily accessible in any other Clan; they had to get harassed by the cats of ThunderClan about their diet, there was no issue with getting their own food from the lake

As the Warrior Cat Food Guy, that made my heart sink in particular. Everything about this was horrible, but the way the ThunderClan cats zeroed in on RiverClan food choices was painful to me personally.

The fusion of cultures is often reflected beautifully in what we make together. You don't have to choose between furry prey and fishy prey. The blending of an aromatic, appetising smell and the subtle complexity of land prey that takes on the flavors of its diet sounds incredible. Migrant food is often mocked as "inauthentic" but it's not. It's new culture.

Who knows what sorts of new fishing techniques that the RiverClan migrants would have had to learn by fishing on lakeshore? Imagine what they could teach about patience and quiet observation to ThunderClan cats-- and, in turn, what their cooperative hunting style could do to influence them.

Gorseclaw and Lizardtail don't seem miss anything about RiverClan's culture, a culture that has caused the death of nearly every member of their family. They miss material things. And so they are harassed, made to feel unsafe, and driven back to a group that has given them nothing but pain.

Bleak.

[bonefall]

It's a shame Tree is so poorly used because playing Clangen made me think about how much drama a mediator could cause even if they have good intentions. Like trying to get two cats to get along but only making their relationship worse or committing a big political faux pass with a rival clan when they need their support at the brink of war. Conflict through diplomacy can be fun if you commit to building tension and consequences with it.

Do you think mediators will eventually become a thing in all the BB!Clans?

Mediators are a great game mechanic in Clangen. Absolutely fantastic design choice, giving you better influence over the relationships between cats in a game all about managing relationships between cats. The people who came up with that one should be kissed on the mouths.

I'm not sure how much I'd get out of them as a storytelling element for BB, though.

It's not a complete no-- Clangen's mediators are pretty close to that "Therapy" rework I floated. Making their role more about interpersonal conflict, giving advice, helping individual cats work through their issues.

At the same time though, I find that the sense of community is so much stronger when that isn't someone's "job," but just something someone in the Clan can relate to.

Jaypaw could have had some sessions with a hypothetical therapist to confront his internalized ableism-- but isn't it more interesting for him to realize that by calling himself worthless for his disability, he's directly insulting his mentor Longtail too? And that Longtail will invoke his Battle Cat right to FIGHT for his honor?

They could consult elders, find a surprising connection in a Clanmate they'd never paid attention to, reignite an old friendship they thought they lost forever. There already feels like so many possibilities, and all of them feel more intriguing than "goes to the designated therapy guy."

If there's anyone like a political diplomat in BB though, it feels like it should evolve from Merchants. Ive got some stuff about trading and bartering in the works, and I think there's more space for interesting ideas there.

[bonefall]

weird question, but in your rewrite do you keep tree’s mediator role, or do you think he’d be better suited as an educator? do you keep the mediator role at all/is the mediator skyclan exclusive?

I'm honestly considering if it's even a good idea at all.

For the record, I have totally completed designs and art for BB!Leafstar and BB!Waspstar, it's just a matter of opportunity for when I work on their profiles. With those two, I'm going to be gathering most of the big changes done to BB!SkyClan in one place; Firestar and Brokenstar rebuilding it, the Ancestor Rats, Leafstar's death by poison, Waspstar's ascent and xeir hitman Harrybrook, etc.

I'm making a lot of changes to it already, turning it into a really distinct culture and injecting everyone in it with delicious creamy character filling. It's waaaay more fun to write dialogue from actual SkyClan political entities. Unlike the Erins, I LOVE tense dialogue filled with double meanings, and the active threat of a heated argument escalating into violence.

So... is Tree's "special role" really worth salvaging?

A drama series with a character dedicated to preventing drama from happening...?

I'm sort of thinking of drastically reworking it to instead be a role about therapy. A sort of guru type character who's just really good at giving advice. Part of me wants to go even further and gut Tree, significantly scale back his resentment towards The Sisters and make him more of a "I don't agree with them on everything but that's the way they shuck their corn, the Clans aren't perfect either" type of guy.

In any case, Tree himself is totally safe. He's part of a polycule with Violetshine and Dragonfly. He's definitely not an Educator though; for some reason, my heart is just telling me he's not.

[bonefall]

with how little relevance characters often have outside their introduction arc, its genuinely WEIRD how relevant tree constantly is. which is an odd criticism because characters should remain relevant after being established but in warriors it feels like blatant favoritism. i dont even dislike treee and i liked him a lot in tbc but its ODD

Mr. Gas Leak has a very distinct feeling (an odor, if you will) to me. It feels like he became so relevant because people were frustrated that he wasn't doing the Very Special Job they'd invented just for him back in AVoS, so the writing team tried to "respond to criticism" by making him show up all the time.

But like... that wasn't really the heart of the criticism. It wasn't a clamor to bring back Tree specifically. It was frustration that they would set up worldbuilding elements and then forget about them when they became inconvenient.

SkyClan's return, negotiator role, the border guard between the DF and StarClan, voting to oust a leader. We've gotten at least one (sometimes multiple) additions that threaten to shake up the status quo in every modern arc-- and then they're forgotten about or not used to their full potential.

In honesty though, the more he appears, the more I actively dislike him. I thought he was cool at first, I enjoyed the idea that SkyClan was going to bring some new dynamics to the politics at the lake. But every role he's had since his introduction has been insufferable.

I HATED how he absolutely refused to do his job in Squilf's Hope because of personal bias

I can't stand how the Sisters have been willing to help the Clans after their treatment in that book, and the constant narrative derision they get in spite of that

The fact everyone just forgot Tree existed in ASC until Nightheart said something was astonishingly bad writing. If I forgot about a major worldbuilding element like that I would be genuinely embarassed, not cutely lampshading it

Even the way he ended up "helping" when the narrative remembered him was annoying. Like, "Oh right! Having this role just grinds the action to a screeching halt! Instead of the Battle Cats doing Battles, they argue offscreen about things! Wow, this was a terrible idea to begin with!"

There are waaaay worse characters in WC, and I can't bring myself to hate him the same way I hate some others like Gray Wing. But boy, he has found his way down my list of "least liked WC characters."

[bonefall]

The “don’t you miss home, you wouldn’t like it here” attitude from the Thunderclan cats is so maddening. They left because a family member got murdered by a brutal dictatorship, and Thunderclans like “just go back and fix it lol. You’ll be fine against a whole army”.

which one is it, Erins? Do we have to feel overwhelming pity for the poor baby RiverClan cats forced to do hate crimes because some kittens were being threatened, or should we feel like Lizardtail and Gorseclaw are just avoiding fixing their own problems by hiding in ThunderClan after their son/brother was executed in front of them?

You can't fucking do both. Pick one.

[bonefall]

Tree really does come into a loving dream scene with all the grace of a fucking gas leak.

[bonefall]

This is said in the context of telling refugees to go rebuild their own country Clan, btw. We can't even have cross clan love without it becoming a weird nationalism thing 💀

?

???

"I joined AmericaClan to be with my mate. But when I moved here, I realized the things I love about him were American things. I loved the way he smelled of burger and the way he was interested in other countries and how he was happy to get involved in their oil. The rest of AmericaClan is the same, and I like it."