#s3 was ... but i continue to feel normal about this show

[ixoren]

the blood orange string of fate

[bitchthefuck1]

you know what, I actually will talk about this because it's bothering me. The issue with focussing so heavily on syd and carmy's potential for a romantic relationship isn't that there's something inherently unintellectual about romance or whatever, it's that a lot of people seem incapable of doing that without immediately flattening the story and ignoring or intentionally misreading any and all nuance for the sake of that romance. Every scene suddenly becomes about how it impacts their relationship, every analysis is done through a romantic lens, every frame or line of dialogue becomes about finding some easter egg or hint that "proves" these people should start dating. Their dynamic is absolutely a fundamental part of this show, but if you can only see it as a will-they-won't-they, you miss so much of what the story is actually trying to say with these two.

There are good versions of this story where their relationship is romantic and there are good versions of this story where it isn't, but as soon as you decide them being together is "the point," you lose the ability to actually judge the story for what it is, not what you want it to be.

[clementineofmine]

I'm sitting here rewatching Tua S3 for reasons, and one interesting thing I picked up is that the entire season is really just each of the Umbrellas struggling to define and searching for family in their own way. Here's me laying down some thoughts for y'all:

Luther - For him, family has always been about the team. That's part of the reason he's so drawn to the Sparrows, bc at first they seem to have the cohesiveness that the Umbrellas lacked. Remember, Luther was the last one left at the Academy, then Reginald sent him to the moon alone. So of course seeing a "functional" team is going to be compelling for him, and he desperately wants to be part of it. And then he and Sloane quickly fall in love and for the first time in his entire life, someone wants him for him. It's intoxicating and utterly consuming NRE that is more powerful than anything he's ever felt.

Diego and Lila - For these two, it's about figuring out how to be a family. Both together, but also a little bit with the other Umbrellas. Diego looking out for Allison and Klaus and Lila and Five coming to a truce are part of this - more about Lila and Five in a sec.

Allison - In her mind, her family is Claire and Ray. This one is obvious, but I also think that the writers did us a disservice by not letting us into Allison's perspective. If you think about it, it's completely normal for a parent to put their child above all. While I don't defend her actions, her motivation could have been more compelling and it would have strengthened her character. But sadly she's the character on the show that is most "othered" (which is bad for many reasons)

Klaus - he really dug deep into individual relationships w family, starting with Five (e2 and 5 Five and Klaus bonding are still some of the best bits of the season imo), Diego, Reginald, Sparrow Ben, and then Luther in the afterlife.

Five - Five remains a pragmatist. His bar for family is very low - success for him means the Umbrellas being alive, no matter what the personal cost or sacrifice to him or to some extent others. It is somewhat depressingly delightful to see how he makes his peace with the end of the world as the season progresses. Before that, however, I'd like to meander back to e3 and 4 where Lila convinces him to electrocute himself and then they go on the Commission mission. Both of the actors do a fine job here bouncing back and forth between witty banter and genuine emotion and I love it. It's a quick and subtle piece of dialogue when Five explains how he saved Lila from the Handler. The undertone is that they were both abused by that woman in a similar way - ultimately, she developed and kept them both as pawns in her own game. And I think Five, starting in S2E10 and fleshed out through S3, develops genuine empathy for and eventually acceptance of Lila as family, as one of them, because of this shared experience.

Viktor - Like Viktor in all seasons, he continues to feel out of place with the Umbrellas and compensates by over-prioritizing his relationships with others. Don't get me wrong, I do empathize with him that he lost real love with Sissy and Halan, but I also think Allison was 100% valid to call him out on his lying in E6, and it was on point to verbalize how the constant focus on Viktors pain minimizes her (and everyone else's) experience. (Edit to add: Viktor finally seems to get the message on this, after being called out by Allison, then subsequently both Sparrow Ben and Five, and spends the last few episodes trying to make amends. Real character development here and I like to see it)

Reginald - Well, his overarching motivation since S1 has always been bringing back his dead wife, so I won't belabor that, but also it's interesting to see how he interacted with Klaus particularly - esp in E7 when he sobers up it seems he is experimenting with remembering his role as a father. Now we don't get a ton about his internal motivation here, but you can tell there is some mild curiosity, if not affection, for Klaus, despite the fact that he ultimately is cool with sacrificing him.

Some of these are more obvious than others, but when you tie them all together, the idea that they are all desperately looking for family and the blind spots that that creates for them, some of the messiness of S3 starts to make a bit more sense.

[love-byers]

I see byler. But it would make me feel so weird because Mike has liked a girl for four seasons and he has treated Will horribly, getting away from him because of a girl. I don't know, it would be pailful to rewatch the show and see all this ald later see byler being canon

i encourage you to rewatch the show because it is just flat out not true that mike "treated will horribly". if mike liking a girl for 4 seasons holds impact then so does the way mike has CANONICALLY treated will during those same seasons.

in s1 mike is determined to find will, believing he was alive even when dustin and lucas didn't. he defended will multiple times ("wait this is will's fault?" "i'm the only one acting normal here! I'm the only one that cares about will!", pushing troy down). he stayed awake in the hospital waiting room so he could go to will immediately when he woke up. he was the first one in will's hospital room and laid his head on will's chest. he breaks into a cheesy grin just watching will play dnd.

in s2 mike is extremely attentive and protective of will. he notices when will wanders outside the arcade and puts an arm around him to guide him back inside, he notices when will is being quieter than usual, he doesn't let anyone else touch will on halloween, he sees himself as will's protector, he comforts will by suggesting they'll lose their minds together, he jumps to will's defense over the dart stuff, he stands in front of will to protect him from dart, he is worked up over will missing school, he stares sadly at will's empty desk, he calls the byers house from a payphone because he's eaten up with worry, he goes to the byers house after school and bangs on the door calling for will, he holds will's hand and assures him all the terrible things he's going through are happening for a reason, he sleeps on will's floor to stay close to him, he sleeps in a chair next to wills hospital bed, he gets flustered when will remembers him despite having amnesia, he notices when something is wrong with will despite him not moving or changing his expression at all, he tearfully recounts the day he met will and describes it as the best thing he's ever done in his whole life.

in s3, yes mike is not a great friend to will all of the time, but it wasn't specifically targeted at will. he and el were being bad friends to the whole group over the summer. and despite that, mike is still attentive to will, noticing when something was wrong in the theater despite the fact that he's supposed to be paying attention to the movie like everyone else. he double checks that will is okay. he immediately back tracks and tries to keep playing dnd when will gets upset, even forcing lucas to backtrack as well. he follows after will when he storms off. he doesn't want will to bike home in the rain. he continues to apologize even though will is ignoring him. he compliments will's campaign and assured him he doesn't think its bad. he's extremely regretful after snapping and saying something hurtful to will. he calls after will, begging him not to leave. he bikes to wills house in a rainstorm and bangs on his door, apologizing and begging will to come outside and talk to him. he doesn't just accept that will doesn't want to talk to him and instead searches through the forest in the dark rain for him. he jumps to defend will and encourages the rest of the group to believe him about the mindflayer. he sticks close to will during the sauna test. he worries about will leaving him behind when he moves to california. he is delighted when will assures him thats its impossible. he tearfully hugs will goodbye. im not gonna go into the byler coding in hop's letter because some would say it's speculative, but yeah. mike was fucking devastated at losing will.

between s3 and 4 mike is eaten up by the idea of will not reaching out and making new friends. he feels like he lost will. he openly complains about joyce's job holding up the line because he wants to talk to will. he mopes in his basement and plays nintendo because he misses will. to him everything feels weird because will isn't there. hawkins no longer feels like home because will isn't there. he loves his other friends but finds that there's something different about what he feels towards will.

then in s4 mike does start out being a dick towards will. or at least it looks that way. it seems like mike doesn't want anything to do with will, but later on he flat out admits that that wasn't the case at all. he was still being highly attentive to will, analyzing his facial expressions and demeanor and hoping will to talk to him. will didn't ruin mikes day by being too involved in his date with his girlfriend, he ruined it by not being involved. he stays close to will after el hits angela, literally shoulder to shoulder with him. he seeks will out to apologize to him and let him know he didn't deserve the way he'd been treated, and goes on to tell him how much he'd missed him and how he was afraid he'd lost him. he wants them to be best friends again. he wants he and will to be a team through whatever happens next. he is overjoyed when he thinks will made a painting for him. he assures will that they will kill vecna together and puts a comforting hand on his shoulder (despite the fact that he was too s scared to hug will 5 days earlier). he stays at will's side when the world is ending right before their eyes.

i truly truly do not understand why people say will deserves better than mike because the entire fucking point of their dynamic is that he handles will with much more care than he does others. im sorry but it really just sounds like an excuse to say byler bad without sounding problematic because the truth is that you just don't want mike to be queer. mike is very tender and caring with will and trusts him above anyone else. will is the same way towards mike. and he is devastatingly in love with mike. mike who has done everything stated above for him. why would they not be a good match? why does will not deserve the person he feels understands him better than anyone else, the person who makes him feel loved and special in a word turned against him? bffr

and about mike getting away from will because of a girl, this is a very common trope in childhood friends to lovers stories. that is what deepens the relationship between the two friends. the jealousy, the pining, the emotionally charged arguments. one of the friends usually doesn't realize what they have until they are faced with losing it. hello, s3 epilogue! the love triangle dynamic has already been used multiple times in stranger things. nancy genuinely did have romantic feelings for steve even when she got with jonathan. joyce had genuine romantic feelings for bob despite the fact that she was clearly in love with hopper. the writers have clearly shown that love is something entirely separate from attraction, and that it's easy to get lost along the path to it and get those feelings mixed up. why would it be any different for mike? especially if he's queer and in love with a boy? that makes everything 100x more confusing. especially if he's bisexual because the world back then conditioned people to think there was only homosexuals and 'normal' people. it would be so difficult for mike to figure everything out if his romantic feelings towards el are very much real, because he doesn't think he can have both. he feels caught between two slides, as one might say.

so yeah rewatch the show with an open mind and i promise you it will not make you feel weird, it will actually make a whole lot more sense. and if it does make you feel weird then i think you need to address an underlying attitude towards gay people. im not flat out calling you homophobic, it's very easy to be biased and not even know it when the world is as heteronormative as it is. just try to have an open mind

[sarabethsilver]

Jess and Rory were bound to fall apart in S3. They were two teenagers living in a crazy town that put ALL kinds of pressure on them, they were headed down very different paths, and Jess wasn't ready for a relationship at that point. They had to go their separate ways for a bit.

But what really makes them tragic? Is that all of the adults - and eventually Jess and Rory themselves - come to understand their relationship's demise as entirely Jess' fault. And this narrative is really bad for both of them.

We all know Jess' mistakes in this relationship. The show makes a point to blow them up and examine them thoroughly, often with multiple characters chiming in to talk about how terrible Jess is. A single missed phone call, concert tickets purchased for the wrong reason (??), a poorly-timed black eye, a fight with Dean, the fact he left town. All of these choices are discussed and framed as solely Jess' fault. Jess' behaviors get no context. It doesn't matter that he was working late, that Rory yelled at him throughout that dinner, that Dean threw the first punch, or that Luke kicked him out. S3 decidedly concludes with Rory, The Poor Victim and Jess, The Jerk Who Broke Her Heart. The show never re-examines this perspective.

But if you pause and examine Rory's choices throughout their relationship, she doesn't look that good. Their relationship starts with a lie: Rory kissing him, demanding he keep it secret, and then ghosting him for two months. She's really angry with him when she returns, having sincerely expected him to wait around for her while she continued to date Dean. She withdraws her friendship while Jess dates Shane. She yells at him in the street, joining the chorus of townsfolk who publicly dislike him. She eggs his car and mocks him about it. She runs away from their first real kiss with zero explanation. She scolds him for kissing her in public, prioritizing Dean's feelings over her boyfriend's. She lies about Dean repeatedly. She gives him the silent treatment after a single missed phone call. She tricks him into attending dinner with her grandma, then yells at him the whole time. She spends the entirety of Kyle's party mocking Jess while ignoring his increasingly desperate pleas to leave.

Does any of this make Rory a terrible person? No. She's a teenager, and she was in a really complicated, no-win situation concocted by her mother and a slew of Stars Hollow adults who are far too obsessed with the love lives of teenagers. Rory's a people-pleaser and she was desperate to spare everyone's feelings, unable to accept that by nature of this situation: somebody was gonna get hurt no matter what. But in trying to protect everyone, she ended up hurting Jess the most. She doesn't trust him, she doesn't prioritize his feelings, and she doesn't communicate with him. She ultimately follows along with the town narrative that Jess Ruined Everything.

The really sad thing is that this narrative is bad for both of them. Jess ends up feeling like the world's biggest failure, fleeing town without a word and ending up totally alone. Rory ends up feeling like a helpless victim, utterly lacking agency in her own relationships. She is told, over and over again, that her relationship problems were not her fault. That it's normal to sit back, make no effort, and expect to be treated like a princess by a guy who has to read her mind and do absolutely all the work. You can draw a straight line from Rory being Blameless in the Jess breakup, and Rory having an affair with her married ex a year later.

What I would give for an effort to re-examine their relationship toward the end of the series! It would have been good for both of them to understand that they were both kids, they both made mistakes, but they both tried their best. There were no villains here. Just two flawed humans who cared about each other and tried to have a relationship before they were truly ready.

[variousqueerthings]

so the thing is, back when i first watched s3 of elementary i was not a fan of joan coming to this moment of "oh maybe i should break up with my stable, attractive, nice, charming boyfriend" only for him to immediately die, because it felt like a cop-out -- that she'd almost come to some kind of moment in figuring herself out, but now she'd be regressing into "oh well, i can't have romantic relationships because it's dangerous, not because i don't want them," there will forever be a tinge of something in her relationship with andrew now, even though she was literally in the process of breaking up with him because it wasn't doing anything for her. a certain rose tint over what was actually happening, which was that she wasn't into the idea of the relationship, or indeed, any romantic relationship

however this time around i'm more into it, because this time i'm suuuuch a fan of the continuous push and pull of introspection and refusal to introspect that exist in both sherlock and joan -- getting the emotional truth out of either of them is like pulling fucking teeth!

the fact that the "aftermath episode" of her bf getting murdered in which joan is steadfastly refusing to Feel Her Feelings is the same episode as the sherlock-and-marcus excursion, in which marcus bell is telling sherlock over and over "call me marcus" and sherlock's grimace makes it clear that too much vulnerability feels like getting stabbed, something he's only allowed five times it seems:

two are with people who are locked up (jamie and abigail, although the latter has some serious extenuating circumstances)

one is dead (alistair, and even then i feel like alistair never knew how much he meant to sherlock)

one is on the run from the law atm (kitty, although i know she works that out)

and joan

(and arguably mycroft, but that's slightly different, they're siblings, being a sibling is smthinsmthin)

and even with them -- with the exception of joan and previously jamie -- he is oh so very careful about how much of himself he shows

it's such a fascinating double-up episode exploring their attitudes towards relationships (the fact that jamie makes a form of appearance and it's via writing a letter to joan!!!!) (also ofc sherlock calls him marcus by the end)

and now back to joan, who is ostensibly much more "adjusted" to living a conventional life, after all she's prepped for conventional since she was a kid! except she really isn't, is she? she's canonically trying to fulfill some assumed goal of normalcy (stated to be expected of her by her mother/upbringing), and she's fighting against it every step of the way. she doesn't do close friendships really (she tried, and she sucked at it until she started meeting people more like sherlock, and then it's a little closer to the way he does "friendships" that is, we create a wide network of people, but we don't have to know that much about each other beyond what we need to support one another), and she certainly doesn't do romance (or, she tries for a bit, but fails over and over) and the entire time she's insistently going "sherlock you need support to figure yourself out, you need some help to stay sober, if you want to talk..."

her whole Thing is that she's very polite and charming, so of course she's not like her standoffish abrasive partner, sherlock, she's the "Nomal One" who's so well-adjusted, except when this life forces her to make decisions beyond her control

and now going "well, i'm dangerous to get close to, so i may as well not try anymore" is another wonderful way to avoid thinking about what she wants. she doesn't have any choices you see, it's simply the way things have to be (oh noooo). anyway this interaction suddenly happens halfway through the episode:

joan: you know i pulled away from you last year because uh… i felt myself sucked into this world that you built. i wanted something normal. something that was mine. sherlock: there's nothing wrong with that. you have a right to your own space, physically and mentally joan: im not sure that i do. i don't think i can keep our work and my private life separate. it just doesn't seem possible. but you already know that, i mean it's part of the reason you life the way that you do sherlock: yes but my choices dont have to be your choices watson joan: it might be better if they were. andrew would have been better off

see, andrew would have been better off, that's what the problem was, suuuuuuure. girl you were in the middle of dumping him when he was murdered, stop avoiding the real issue here! you shouldn't not-be-dating because of The Work, you should be not dating because you... don't want to. you've got to admit that you like the world you were getting sucked into. do it!

(once she's made the change to wearing suits, we know she's started to sort herself out, it's coming, she'll get there)

end of the episode:

joan: i feel... ok. i feel clear about something: our work, what we do... it's not just a job now, it's who i am. i'm a detective, i'm ready to embrace that. i live in this world - your world - and i probably will for the rest of my life sherlock: it isn't my world. it's our world joan: i understand that now. i accept it, i know what it means sherlock: and what does it mean? joan: it means that... it's ridiculous for me to think that... i can have a normal life. i'm not gonna do that anymore.

joan i want to study you like a bug!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(but also, youknow, if it's getting her there, then let her think it's the detective work enacting upon her life like an unstoppable force that she must stop fighting and accept the inevitability of. youknow. that's an aromantic way of looking at things too. can't do romance, oh so unfortunate, but The Work!!!!!!!!!)

[yannaryartside]

I am tired of Sydney being a “knight in shining armor” for these immature men

The trailer of s3 made me reflect on a big problem with the show for me so far. The use of Sydney on the plot overall and in the character arcs of men. This is a rant, if you happen to be on the side of the fandom that think these men are perfect and Syd is valued as their support, feel free to scroll.

Part 1: the woman

Sydney Adamu is insecure on her leader/social skills and her creative habilities. That, and her kindness, is what makes the audience root for her. She is releatable but most important she is real, she has taken it impulse by impulse, creating on the fly ways to succeed in a industry not very welcoming to people with her personality (or that look like her). All of that makes sense in a story of an underdog.

But yet, the show has normalized at this point how much shit she takes from a group of really emotionally immature people. And how much they expect her to figure it out answers to the problems that they themselves cause.

Thinking about it like an animal getting into a new pack without the capacity to defend herself from any attack. The shitshow she tolerated in s1 has never been properly addressed and it seems like the worst storm is yet to come in s3. She fixed the logistics of the beef and implemented a hierarchy. Things that Carmy was incapable of doing due to his story with the staff and his own mental turmoil. In s2, she was the only professional chef actively making decisions and efforts in the future of the restaurant. Carmy even reprimanded her for not making the decisions he was supposed to do. And she reminded him “you wanted the final say, this is on you)

Syd is not helpless in any way, but she has applied kindness and fairness most of the time to this point, and I wonder if this time that is gonna cut it. I am mostly tired to get her back to that scenario again. If anything, the part that got me the most excited of Richie’s redemption is how she could actually rely on him. And then it came the trailer.

Part 2: the men

The part that got my blood boiling in the trailer is the response “Show me a functional one” from Richie and Carmy.

We are in season 3, and with all the growth and all those balls, these men seem to expect her to fix an issue, wich core is actually their own emotional immaturity. I am sick of it. “Mother, maid, therapist”🎶

She must deal with Carmy’s recklessness and the fight between him and Richie. A very green new staff and a unqualified old staff mostly. All of that creates the dysfunctionality in question, and I wonder where her character will go to resolve it. The restaurant had a shaky base (particularly on front house staff and line cooks) and now Carmy is getting on everyone’s nerves. Putting fire to an already unstable chemical.

Part 3: Heroine’s Journey

It would take a pro to resolve all of this shit, and the people involved (and responsible for the problem) turn to this young, inexperienced woman for guidance and answers because the only person in the kitchen with actual industry experience is trapped in his own destroying tendencies.

That is not only the underdog story that is human vs forces of nature, another common plot structure. Forces of nature incarnated in unstable men and our hero is a woman. That is so fucked up and yet so real. That is the value I give to this scenario.

I really don't think that, besides Tina and Nat, there is a single member if that kitchen aware of how much Syd was alone last season picking Carmy’s slack. And even they were barely able to help her. Everybody else was to happy for Carmy loosing his virginity apparently. All this scenario could very well repeat itself this season on how much they are insisting on Claire and Carmy getting back together.

I know the show is about leaving toxic cycles and the people who can help you get better. Sydney is supposed to be made from a different matter than the Bearzattos because otherwise, the toxicity will continue. I just wish she could coldly let them know how much of a pest they can be sometimes. And not be treated as unfair because she left her “role” in creating a new system. Anger is boundarie setting emotion and it can be very constructive, and expressed without the chaos of the Bearzattos. She did this in s1 and if done again I think this time the general audience (except the racist/misogynistic obviously) will understand that this tough love is necessary as well.

Let's not normalize (in this show) women taking shit to be good women and a reward for seeing the potential of men. It is not like society is not doing that for us already.

Sydney is not a punching bag, and she knows it, she definitely will stand her ground this season, wich can be very encouraging to young woman entering a workforce that is not designed to support them. I think she will go to Ember to work closely with Chef Terry (Olivia Coleman) to get knowledge of how women can shape this toxic places. It will be her version of forks. The toxicity may escalate to a turning point for her. She tolerated (and transformed) s1 and s2, we know what is in her heart. The point will definitely come, because this is the time for evolving or dying, for everyone.

But again, I need these men (besides you, Marcus, you are going to be her rock) to start taking responsibility for the shit they are fucking up. That would be nice. I am sure there will be moments of it since this growth is literally the show's theme. I am just kind of tired of the “Mother, maid, therapist🎶” undertone of it all. It could be applied to Nat and Tina as well.

[milevenstancyendgame]

In Defense Of Mike

Sometimes antis inspire you to write meta - I don't know why, but today I feel like going through these Mike accusations that someone left on my Eleven post, lol:

No one talks shit about my boy Mike on my post.😎

-"And not to make this about shipping because El is her own person and should be discussed outside of ships, BUT" - goes on long ass shipping discourse.

You nailed it right there, buddy.😂

-"Mike babies her throughout their relationship":

I think it's so funny that those who are on the fence shouting about El needing to break up with Mike, to be independent, are doing exactly what they accuse Mike of doing (gaslight much?). You're willfully ignoring her love for Mike, which is canonical, projecting your own dislike of him onto her, like you know what's best for her. You're babying her.

So when does he baby her? I can't think of any time, but since you also said that he's protective and "El wants to be trusted and supported", I'm gonna take a wild guess and say you're talking about SOME scenes between El and Mike in s3.

I think it's funny that antis wave Mike's protectiveness over El in s3 as though it was some big red flag.

Like, ya'll act as though he wanted to lock her up in the cabin. Oh wait, that was Hopper in s2, actually. I don't see you hating on Hopper though, even though he's an adult.

Mike is worried and traumatised from losing El several times before. Yes, he doesn't know how to deal with this, but like you keep saying, El is her own person and should be respected as such.

So what does El do? She shows that she doesn't like it, and in an intimate moment away from the over-the-top comedy of s3, she tells him "I need you to trust me".

And how does Mike react? Did you actually watch that? Because it doesn't sound like it. He ACCEPTS what she says IMMEDIATELY, even gives Max an acknowledging glance, and backs off, letting her do her thing.

Like this right there. That's growth.

And that's him doing exactly what you say El needs - that's trusting, supportive, and letting her decide for herself. Which, by the way, he has been doing the whole time and continues to do.

He apologies to her and shows that he has been self-reflecting, and is overly hard on himself. He's aware that he was jealous and that he doesn't know how to deal with his strong love for El.

That's healthy and wholesome, and also huge for a 14-year old emotionally neglected boy, who has no blueprint for a healthy romantic relationship.

But no, you don't want to see this. Nor anything else, apparently. Just literally this ONE DAY on which he was overwhelmed and worrying about El. And you interpret that as "babies her throughout their relationship". That is…wild.

-"Mike puts El on a pedestal" & "Mike never compliments El's personality" :

Wow, this feels like the most unjust accusation of all. You interpret him thinking and telling her she's a superhero as putting her on a pedestal?

First of all, how can you do that, when you just said that he babies her throughout.😆 It almost seems like your various views about him are incompatible...maybe because they're not founded on reality...👀

He's the one who constantly reminds everyone else that El is not a machine, that she has limits, that she has human needs...seriously, have you watched the show? S1? When everyone saw her as a problem or a weirdo or a traitor or a monster or a criminal or a science experiment....and he was the one who treated her for what she was - a scared, friendless child in danger. An equal. A friend.

How come you're not hating on Dustin and Lucas? Maybe you're able to see how they changed? Or Max, because she's in awe of El in s2 and in s3 is 100%ly confident that she will be able to defeat the monster on her own? Maybe you're able to see that she had a normal reaction to finding out about someone's super powers and that she simply was mistaken? Or Steve, because he refers to her as "this girl with superpowers that we usually rely on"? Maybe you're able to see that this didn't reflect any dehumanising on his part?

Oh, but Mike is different of course.🙄

Mike never treats El as anything else but his equal. If he actually put her on a pedestal, he'd constantly be like: "Oh, but I'm sure El can fix it!" for every problem they have, and he'd be disappointed and shocked to witness her humanity - her flaws, her needs, her imperfections.

Well, he doesn't. On the contrary, he tries to provide for her every need, reminding others of them, is worried about her overexerting herself (which you hated on a moment ago, but now strangely seem to have forgotten), and never pushes her to fight for them. He's also always the one who wants to provide a back-up for her, to not let her fight alone or do everything for them (like in the caves in s2, or in s3 when they try to overturn the car in the mall).

Okay, and my personal favourite: "He also does this with Dustin and Will" So I'm guessing you're referring to Mike telling Dustin in s1 that his cleidocranial dysplasia is like a superpower, after being bullied; and in s2, when he tells Will he's like a super-spy now. And of course telling El that she's a superhero.

And you think this is bad????????

😳

Sorry, I just....HOW? He's literally reassuring Dustin that he not only accepts him as he is, but that his difference is cool, he compares him to the coolest people they know and admire, the super heroes from comics. He's trying to cheer him up after he got humiliated for being different. I mean...I guess if he had given him a hug, you would have found a way to interpret that as bad.😬

And the same with Will - he sees that his friend is barely keeping it together, he's rightly panicking, because he's possessed by an interdimensional monster, but Mike finds a way to distract him, invite his mind to see things in a different way that actually EMPOWERS him, reassuring him that they won't let the monster spy back, and again, this is bad, because?

Or do you mean it's only bad when he does it with El?😂 Because it's the same thing. He's trying to reassure her that she's not a monster, that he loves her.

And once again - when she shows in s4 that she doesn't like something he's doing (not saying "I love you"), he accepts that, he feels bad, and tries to give her exactly what she asked for at the next opportunity!

Apparently you didn't see that either.

And "he never compliments her personality". How many hoops do you want him to jump through?🤣

Mike shows that he loves and respects El all the time, he doesn't need to say "You have an awesome personality." for El to feel that. And she never expressed any need for that. Does Hopper compliment Joyce's personality to her face? Did Joyce do that for Hopper? Did Nancy do that for Steve or Jonathan or vice versa? Did Max say that to Lucas? I guess Lucas is the only one who really loves his partner, because he did that once.🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣

Oh, and of course, the whole monologue at the end of s4 doesn't count, because. "I love you on your good days, I love you on your bad days, I love you without your powers, I love you with your powers...I love you exactly for who you are."

That's somehow not valid, hm?

Mike can't win in your eyes, because you don't want him to. This is called scapegoating, btw.

Lastly, it's strange that you have a reference to him in your username, when you clearly think he's so horrible and accuse him of all this...together with a reference to Will...hmm...how mysterious....🙄🙄🙄 Almost like you had double standards for a certain agenda.🤔

*Drops mic*

[vampyrhics]

i know that people are somewhat nervous about how in ep 10, guillermo is still at cannon capital. i myself, am not all that concerned, because there's some groundwork in these episodes that i am paying a lot of attention to as we continue through the season. a few things:

one being that jordan uses the family language that we have seen used by guillermo in previous seasons, but never outwardly returned by the vampires. this to me signals that cannon capital are using his needs to take advantage of him (jordan also mentions how he shows up early and stays late, and it's obvious that this job is changing guillermo as a person in a bad way). guillermo, more than anything, has wanted a place to belong, but i think his arc is realizing that the vampires are his actual family, not this soul sucking workplace. there's a lot of capitalism red flags floating around in this season that are making me nervous, because the company obviously views guillermo as expendable (where the vampires begin to work with him because they view him as not expendable -- they all fight over his room, showing they miss him, and they all show up because they're afraid of guillermo losing his mind being in the normal human world).

on top of this, it is obvious that jordan is just fulfilling the place of nandor, which guillermo has been trying to find since no longer being a part of the vampire residence full-time (calling him "master" accidentally, arguing with nandor he's not at jordan's beck and call and then answering his literal phone call). which is ironic, because this also mirrors nandor's arc in the season, with the desperation of filling the hole of guillermo in his life (which we have witnessed many times before). they are still all about each other, even when desperately focusing on other things. this applies to the relationship that nandor is trying to have with the guide, especially since it's been established that she is no longer attracted to him (s3 wedding), thought he was the conquerer but realized he wasn't (s6, ep1), and overall has not been very receptive to this change in nandor (s6, ep3) when she tells him "bye" in an irritated tone. i don't think this will work out, just like all other relationships for nandor that are not guillermo.

lastly, they are on equal footing this season more than ever before. there is no longer any "professional" involvement between them, they are just two people who were a part of each other's life for a long time, and all the complications of that. also, i think it is fair to note that kayvan has stated that they're acting a lot like exes -- how nandor can't accept that guillermo's new way of life does not include him, and in nandor's mind, it has to. he can't let guillermo go, and he doesn't want to either, and i think deep down -- guillermo is in the same boat. he helps fix vampire problems still despite saying that he wouldn't, offers a place for nandor to sit and talk when he's clearly upset (also that richard nixon speech says some things about how he feels about guillermo leaving him, even in a very fucked up roundabout way), and tries to keep nandor from being fired because he knows it will hurt nandor's feelings. is this aligned with someone who is truly over the vampires? i think not!

anyway, i have a feeling this will come to a head at some point, and it seems the promotion is going to be when that happens. also, to be noted -- that's not the last episode of the season, so chances are, we will see where the fallout goes. but how will that shake out? i don't know, but i do hope that all this setup is going somewhere because there's a ton of it this season whereas we used to not get any except a few moments here and there. this season's soul is literally the dynamic between nandor and guillermo, so i assume that this will pay off (we hope).

[libelula202]

I’m rewatching Numb3rs, a 2005 series about a mathematician helping his FBI Agent brother solve crimes.

And I’ve been thinking a lot of Jewish representation in media, what with the world being what it is right now.

Numb3rs stars Rob Morrow, David Krumholtz, and Judd Hirsch.

All three of whom are Jewish IRL.

Up until this point, the family’s religion has not been spoken about. Obviously the audience knows that all 3 men are Jewish IRL-but nothing has been explicitly talked about in the show.

I recently watched the season 3 episode Provenance, where a Jewish family has a claim to a painting stolen by the Nazis.

There is a scene where Don (Rob Morrow) asks his brother Charlie (David Krumholtz) why their family was never religious. Charlie shrugs and doesn’t really have an answer.

The story line continues, and is concluded when the family gets the painting back. And there is a beautiful scene where the song Hallelujah plays behind the family matriarch, as she holds the painting and reminisces about her family, who were all killed during the Shoah.

It ends with Don talking to his dad (Judd Hirsch) about using his FBI access to try and find any surviving extended family members. 

And it just struck me, that they never say their family is Jewish. The audience is just expected to know.

Their last name is Eppes (in the show), and of course we know these actors IRL are Jewish. But that’s all we know until this episode.

I just thought it’s so different to current times. The audience isn’t expected to be shocked that they’re Jewish, it’s just treated as a fact.

Yes, they’re Jewish.

Full stop.

No explaining, no “well I’m Jewish” moment in the dialogue.

Just an acknowledgment that this story hits close to home for them.

And then we move on.

——

I am not Jewish. I don’t know if I’m qualified to say if this is good representation or not.

But as a goy, I appreciated that I was expected to know this.

It feels like a flip of the normal culturally Christian USAmerican media script.

I don’t get explicitly told their religion, I’m just supposed to use context clues and figure it out myself. No explanation, no being force fed the answer.

It’s just a fact.

They are Jewish.

(Also I like that this is a s3 episode. Doesn’t feel forced this way.)

[mayandjuly1811]

This is such a bad take that I saw on Twitter.

First, Lumity is the main ship and sapphic representation of the show, not Huntlow. Luz and Amity have been officially dating for months, so it's normal for them to kiss a few times on screen. It's a big win for the LGBT+ community. 

Also, Raeda is another side ship, but why does Raeda still have one kiss scene, but Huntlow doesn't have any?

Because both ships are more romantically explicit than Huntlow.

For instance, Luz and Amity ask each other out, call each other girlfriends, and other people acknowledge their relationship.

Meanwhile, Hunter and Willow don't have any of those. There's no explicit scene of them asking each other out. All they did was holding each other's pinkies. If you remove all the blushes of Hunter and Willow in S3 but still with the same conversations and interaction, they look like just normal friends. That's why even though I accept that Huntlow is canon, I don't really believe they're actually dating. Seeing them kiss is kind of forced and out of nowhere, personally.

Second, Luz looks depressed in this scene, and Amity wants to comfort her and to make her feel better. That's Amity's purpose, not because she wants to cling on Luz or act possessively.  It's normal to comfort your partner when you see them get upset. After Luz pulls away, Amity doesn't ask why Luz does that or continues to get closer to Luz. She respects Luz's boundaries and changes the subject.

 

Lastly, saying Luz doesn't need comfort from Amity is OOC of her. She does need comfort, but she thinks she doesn't deserve it. In FTF, Luz is still planning to stay in the Human Realm forever, which means she will have to leave Amity behind. Luz doesn't want Amity to get too attached to her because it will be more hurtful when they have to separate.

Additionally, Luz's depression is explicitly shown in S3, everyone knows, Camilla even talks to Willow and Gus about that.

So Amity knows Luz is traumatized, and is she supposed to leave Luz alone with her grief like that? With no comfort? Before FTF, Luz still accepts Amity's affection without pushing her away. Before going to the portal, Amity kisses Luz's cheek, Luz accepts that and even smiles at Amity. This means Luz doesn't feel annoyed when Amity comforts her and she certainly never tells Amity to leave her alone before.

If Amity gets closer to Luz to comfort her, people will say she's clingy and annoying. But if Amity didn't do that, people would say she's a bad girlfriend for not comforting Luz when she's depressed, or Luz and Amity's relationship has no understanding, comforting and connection. There's no winning, seriously.

[chronicallyaunline]

Neurodiversity in Star Trek TNG S3 E20: “Tin Man”

Tam Elbrun: It worries you that I can’t read your mind?

Data: Perhaps there is nothing to read. Nothing more than mechanisms and algorithmic responses.

Tam Elbrun: Perhaps you’re just different. It’s not a sin, you know, though you may have heard otherwise.

Many autistic Star Trek enthusiasts see themselves in Lt Cdr Data, an android who was designed without the ability to experience emotion (though there is plenty of context to suggest that he merely experiences emotion differently from other people). While Data and certain other characters are widely considered to be neurodivergent by fans, the earlier series are rarely so explicit about neurodivergence as in the TNG episode “Tin Man.” This episode introduced Tam Elbrun, a Betazoid who is unusually proficient in negotiation with sentient non-humanoid organisms. It is made abundantly clear that Elbrun is considered neurodivergent among Betazoids, as he possesses a telepathic ability that is so powerful it becomes debilitating.

Counsellor Troi states that Betazoids normally come into their telepathic abilities in adolescence, but a small minority are born with their abilities. Troi also says that those children require early diagnosis and intervention so that they can be taught to manage the overwhelming experience of being aware of the minds of others before their own brains are capable of handling it. At least in the case of Elbrun, that power seems to continue to grow with age. By the time we meet an adult Elbrun, he experiences the emotions and thoughts of others so powerfully that he is disabled by being in the presence of large numbers of sentient minds. The one exception is Data, as Elbrun is unable to read his unique mind.

Data and Elbrun have opposite experiences of emotion. Data cannot feel emotion in a traditional capacity, and Elbrun cannot stop experiencing it. Neither one is capable of experiencing normal social bonds because of the intensity of their differences, yet they find some companionship through their similarities. Ironically their opposite experiences are both representative of autism. Autistic people tend to experience much lower or much higher empathy than the average person, both of which can prevent us from socializing normatively with others. To me, the most important part of this episode is that it is so ahead of its time in how it approaches people with unusual brains. Difference is not wrong, and it does not cancel out your basic humanity. Star Trek TNG aired years before I was born, but there are plenty of modern shows that would do well to treat their characters more like this.

[yourstormthlaylirahh]

Normally I'd chalk up the massive difference in audience reaction to Bridgerton S3 as being between period drama lovers who want a bit more of the accuracy and seriousness of a proper period drama, and those looking for a vaguely historical bodice ripper. But S3 fails even on the second count. Are we all watching the same show?

Literally the 1 good thing I can say about Polin is, out of context, some of the sex scenes are kinda hot. That's it.

Colin has no personality, becoming the blandest kind of love interest whose sole 'personality' trait is loving the MC. There's no consistency in any of his morals or traits, he says whatever the plot needs him to say for the sake of our Mary Sue MC Penelope.

Penelope never experiences any real lasting consequences for the harm she caused and will continue to cause as Lady WD but we are always supposed to feel sorry for her and root for her. Why? The writers don't show us any compelling reason, so they have various ooc lines telling us how extraordinary she is. Why is she extraordinary? Profiting off of gossip that ruined or almost ruined the lives of people who trusted her. Sooooo inspiring

This is a nightmare, and I hope they don't do Francesa, Benedict, or their favourite punching bag Eloise dirty in their seasons (free Eloise from Phillip. She deserves so much better and the writers are massively unfair to her character)

[kaokassy]

*EPISODE 8 SPOILERS*

I don't understand all the negativity around this episode, from a certain part of the fandom. (actually i know very well why you're upset...but let's pass)

I absolutely loved Louis' revenge part, you could argue that it was way too fast paced but let's be honest, did you want it to last a whole episode? All the vampires were in the same place and asleep he had the advantage the only confrontation that we needed to see in more detailed was the one with Santiago, and as much as he is evil, Santiago is a ''young'' vampire right ?Louis could easily have the upper hand so it was a quick fight,it was satisfying .

I'm not going to dwell too much on the dungeon part because I don't think it happened like that. We're probably still in Louis' modified memories by Armand, so let's move on.

Why a powerful vampire like Armand would be threatened by Louis and not defend himself? Probably shame, disbelief and shock! He didn't expect that to happen at all! It was nice seeing Louis regains a little "power" i wasn't expecting a big fight and I think it's only the first confrontation.

Louis was literally glowing the moment he came back to New Orleans, chatting with the cab driver, smiling and all. He is not even back to the old Louis,no it's a new Louis!

Finally the reunion with a Lestat who was not even surprised to see him there, he was waiting for him and knew it was his Louis. Really appreciated that they spoke openly,one of their biggest problem is obvious lack of communication?? Them grieving the loss of their daughter and admitting they failed her .

I know that everyone has already made hundreds of metaphors about them hugging during the the hurricane but it was visually very beautiful. Despite all the storms in their lives it's always Louis and Lestat 🖤

So if they really met in New Orleans,it's Lestat's first real appearance on the show ?Well he was much more 'normal' than the way he was described by Louis and Armand, less flamboyant? But we must take into consideration that after the events in Paris he was surely no longer the same and lived a recluse life's, healing... I could never hate you Lestat.

I didn't talk about Armand/Louis and Daniel/Armand because I honestly don't know what to say there is probably more to come in s3. Devil minioners there's no better way to start the big DM Adventures!

Louis back in Dubai and talking with Daniel like two besties, please writers you absolutely have to develop this friendship we need to see their dynamic. I know that Daniel is thriving, accepted and adapted to vampirism so well

Claudia's dress and Paul portrait,can i cry? Two of most violent losses in his life, the ones to whom he never got to say goodbye and feels responsible for their deaths.They are here with him forever,the tree is gone just like Armand.

I'm not really sure about the interpretation but Louis casually declaring war on the other vampires,after finally accepting his vampirism? he is that guy!

Look at all the colors,he is Really free after almost 80 years in a black and cold controlled prison.The photography on this show is no joke each plans could be framed on a wall.

I probably forgot a lot but it's already really long! But I don't forget to once again thanks Jacob Anderson for his multi-layered interpretation of Louis. obviously i say it every days and i will continue to say it, give that man every awards.

[luccksks]

Mike's behavior in season 3

I find Mike's behavior in S3 a little curious and suspicious, as always he is trying to deny some things or his behavior in this season, and it has importance in the next season. I will try to make my thoughts make sense, because I don't know how to explain myself most of the time ghfdsjk

Throughout the third season, we see how Mike does not want to play D&D with Will, or how he says that games are for children, and they are no kids anymore, that they have grown up, and how Mike focuses more on El, because she is his girlfriend. even Will points this out in the rain fight. That Will thought yes, that they were always going to play together, but Mike answers that no, that they are not kids anymore (Which is quite funny, because later in S4 it is seen that Mike wanted to play D&D, that's why he ends up joining the hellfire club with Dustin, and since at the end of S3 he doesn't want Will to put the game in the donation box)

In short, he believes that since he is older, it is normal for you to stop liking games, and to behave less like a child. But still, Mike is desperate to play D&D again, with Will, and other games, and he shows it at the end of the season, both in Hopper's dialogue (I'll show it later) and in the last scene they have together this season

In the last episode, Mike shows his concern about losing Will, thinking Will will join another party, or not playing with Will again (although he has previously shown that he was not interested in playing with him).

And it is a curious contrast, how with Will he is not afraid to show that he wants to continue playing with him, and he is afraid of losing him (Even if he doesn't say it, we can see it) And how with El he has to pretend, and remember himself "That made me sound like a seven-year-old" although he doesn't think that and he's really excited to be able to play, because you can tell he says it with some enthusiasm, but he ends up retracting it, and saying that it sounds like a kid, which is he's been saying all season. And it's not until she says "I like presents, too" that Mike says "Yeah, I like- I like presents too."

And I don't know, it just seems to me that Mike is trying to behave in a way that is not him, when he is with El (Beyond the most obvious), since all the times that Mike has tried to be funnier she didn't like it, like in episode 1 when Mike is singing and Eleven tries to silence him, or in episode 4 when Mike takes the mannequin to try to make a joke and Eleven makes a bad face, but anyways

Mike is afraid of losing Will, he is AFRAID that things will change between them, and Hopper's dialogue (Which is very important here) is VERY them, and is made to show the emotions of Will and Mike, but above all Mike, perfectly reflecting Mike's feelings throughout this season and next, and, perhaps explaining his behavior this season

In this scene the focus is on Mike, the camera focuses on Mike, because they are Mike's feelings towards Will, Will even says that, in the painting scene, I don't have a photo of that, but in 4x08, minute 17:25, Will says "Or she[I] seemed like she[I] was pushing you away is because she's[I] scared of losing you, like you're scared of losing her" they both feel like they're pulling away from each other

"I was worrying too much about El" This is what Will what he said to Mike in the rain fight, and Mike admits it, he was worrying a lot about Eleven, and he was leaving his friends aside, a parallel to Nancy, in the first season, that when she was dating Steve, she left Barbara, her best friend, alone. "I feel I lost you or something" Mike felt like he was losing Will, who is also named in Hopper's dialogue, taking into account that during those 6 months they spend apart, Mike calls Will, but Will almost never answered. + the whole season 3 theme, Mike worrying a lot about El, and feeling like he was losing him

Honestly, in their heart-to-heart there are many references to Hopper's dialogue, and they are always referring to pulling away from the other, feeling lost, or losing the other.

Continuing with Hopper's dialogue, just after saying "You're pulling me away or something" he says:

"I miss playing board games every night" D&D is a board game, and in S1, you can see that the party played at night, but they don't play as much as before, because they have grown up, and Mike misses that, just like many other things

The dialogue then continues talking about other things, referring to El, to Joyce, but suddenly it focuses on Mike, when he says "Changing" Mike is changing, he knows it ("Mike is trying to be as normal as possible"), but he is afraid of changing, and that things will change too

And then, when he says that he doesn't want things to change, because he's afraid, the focus is on Will, that means that he doesn't want things to change with Will, he's afraid, he's afraid of losing him, and taking into account that before he says " You're a pulling away from me or something", so Mike has felt a change, and it scares him. There has been a clear rift between Will and him since S1, and that is why season 4, he says "I feel I lost you" and "I think it'll be easier if we're a team. Friend. Best friends" he corrects himself, remembering Will's words at Rink-O-Mania when Will told him "We used to be best friends."

I really don't know what it is referring to here, other than that Mike wants to stop that change, and make things go back to the way they were between him and Will. It reminds me of the scene where Mike goes crying to his mother after seeing Will's "dead body", and his mother hugs him to comfort him.

Now, let's talk a little about the songs at the end of the season

In this scene The First I love you plays, when El says I love you to Mike, and they kiss. But can we see Mike with a slightly... confused face? He doesn't return the kiss, he stays with his eyes open, Mike is in front of a closet (in Will's room) And with a light in his head, I don't know. And we could say that the title of the song is romantic and this song is made for them, because El tells him I love you and they kiss, but that song also appears in a scene that is a coming out of the closet...

The First I love you (The "love you" is not in capital letters, considering that all the song titles in Stranger Things are in capital letters, which I think the song does not have such a romantic meaning) It also plays when Robin tells Steve that she is a lesbian, and that in reality she didn't like him, but rather the girl who kept looking at him. And it's even more curious, because The First I love you, is a remix of The First Lie, which plays when Jonathan and Nancy kiss for the first time, after saying that they were just friends, and they didn't like each other (a Lie ). And in the two scenes where The First I love you plays, there is a lie, and a confession, or a truth that comes to light, I wouldn't say it's entirely like that, because Mike doesn't say it with words, but with body language, as I said before, not kissing back (in front of a closet) and then looking confused

(Here the songs, at least to me, they sound almost the same)

And taking this into account, we can say that The First I love you is more platonic than romantic + a lie

Steve tells Robin (who at that moment has a crush on Robin) that he likes her, and Robin tells him that she is not like the other girls, because she likes girls, and that is the first lie, when she implied that he was the one she liked, but in the end she ended up being honest with him.

Mike doesn't kiss El back when she kisses him (who at that moment has a crush on Mike) He doesn't even say anything, but Mike implies that he likes El, but that's Mike's first lie, he doesn't like girls, he doesn't like El in that way, because he likes boys.

And honestly, the fact that the one song, called The First I love you, plays in a coming out scene, and in another where Mike doesn't kiss El back and then gets confused is very… well, and taking into account that it is a remix of The First Lie…

But well, that's it for my analysis, thank you for reading it and sorry if it was too long, or it was not understood as I wanted it to be understood, but hey, Byler Endgame :)

[sammysodatime]

do you have any wincest hcs? <3

(i wrote this out and then realized this is less "list of headcanons" and more "my personal headcanons for how things could have started up between the two of them" but i ultimately find this very compelling and i love thinking about it so i thought it was worth elaborating on lol)

SO most important to me is the way things fit (or could fit) into canon, so with that being said i have basically two distinct flavors of wincest that i vibe with, the main difference being when i think things started between them:

1) i think there's a strong potential that sam and dean started messing around when they were still young and being dragged around from motel room to motel room. i just feel like the close proximity and the dependence on each other (and in the same vein, how often they were left alone) would kind of inherently breed some unhealthy behaviors, exceeding the ones we see onscreen. i assume the sexual aspect probably took some time to develop but the shift from "normal siblings" into "something more than normal siblings but difficult and uncomfortable to define" would have started pretty early on, because how could it not? and especially as the two of them got older and the age gap (as it specifically relates to approaching actual adulthood) became even more relevant, i would assume that's where things took a more sexual turn. taking care of each others needs the exact same way they always had, but now that they're older, those needs change, so the roles they play in each others lives adapt to those changing needs

i think that's probably the hc i subscribe to the most re: how they started fucking around with each other, and i think it lends itself well to them continuing to maintain an emotionally and physically incestuous relationship in various ways throughout the show (though i think there are definitely points where it would have been put on pause so to speak, lol)

2. if i'm not vibing with option 1, then my thoughts are that they would have started fucking around somewhere around s3. i feel like the urgency of dean's increasingly inevitable demise would lead to some choices that they (read: sam) likely wouldn't have made otherwise. specifics aside (regarding timing, whether or not they are ACTUALLY together, etc) i think wincest would pretty much always exist as a one-sided thing, even if sam didn't reciprocate (and even if dean couldn't actually "place" what his feelings were/put a name to them), so i feel like sam's desperation to save dean could lead to him changing his tune within the context of s3.

to further elaborate on that, i think that dean would have been pining for sam for aaaages. even in a circumstance where they never actually get together in any capacity, and dean doesn't even really "understand" how exactly he desires sam (sexually, romantically, etc), just knows that he Needs Sam in his life, i think those feelings are there (and i think this has plenty of canon support). sam, on the other hand, is one of the main reasons why i fall back so heavily on the first scenario. part of me doubts that, without a background of incestous behavior as a kid/teenager, he wouldn't be so inclined to give into it as an adult who should "know better". i think them having had that weird relationship as kids/teenagers is kind of a vital piece of the ship as it pertains to what we see onscreen/them as adults.

few of my headcanons unrelated to "how did it start" for anyone who actually read all this lol:

neither one of them really "define" their relationship in any way because there's not really anything to define (to dean) and it's too weird to get into (for sam)

dean kicks in his sleep but sam sleeps like a brick so it's ok

despite the size difference dean insists on being the big spoon (protective big brother vibes)

dean loves to see sam on his knees (great view of those big pretty eyes) so he puts him down there any chance he can get