#rose tyler critical

[icedsodapop]

Okay, biased Martha Jones stan here but like, it just doesnt make sense to me that Donna would name her daughter Rose when it's literally established in Donna's companion era that she and Martha got along fabulously when they met each other while Donna and Rose were polite acquaintances at best, abrasive at worst?? Did rtd forget about this?

Oh and there's also the slight issue of Donna having her memories as a companion erased, no biggie.

[casa-supernova]

i don't think it's exactly a secret that i really don't like the rose/meta crisis ending.

firstly, we lose donna because of it. but mostly because of the implications. i also view the meta crisis in multiple ways. he's a clone but he isn't. he's not the true doctor but he is. it's complicated.

but let's get into it.

first of all, the reason that he even stays with rose in the first place is because the tenth doctor thinks he's a liability which is kind of dramatic but probably an incredible bit of foresight (he can see the turn of the universe right) and self awareness considering he goes all 'timelord victorious' later. two doctors in the same universe, one who's considerably more volatile than the other would definitely be a problem. i don't think davros reversed so quickly upon seeing him for no reason.

so as a solution, he needs to be with rose so she can keep him in check. because the takeway from her character is that she is a balm for the doctor, which reads less sweet, more patronising to her as an individual. i'm not surprised that story had her refer to him as a pet because that's literally what she's doing now. keeping him on a leash lest he go feral. why they didn't just give us a moment between the meta crisis doctor and rose doing something together to sow the seeds if they wanted the viewers to be sold on this, i don't know. now, i am not dismissing the idea that this ending was supposed to be divisive, but some of the vehement defending of it on here makes me raise an eyebrow.

anyway, my secondary point is the parallel world itself. the tardis dies upon getting there the first time, with the doctor comparing it to diesel in a petrol engine. he also states that after the time war, the worlds were closed off, but before that, travelling was possible but stressed that the tardis drew on energy from it's own universe which is why it didn't work in the parallell. now, we also know from rose's absence in that world, that there is probably a lot of people missing from it or people who never existed in the first place.

so. now i am left with everything the doctor would be leaving behind staying in pete's world. he would never see his own universe again. now, the prospect of exploring an unknown universe would be probably exciting but considering timelords do not exist there, it would be a pretty hostile place for him. maybe inventing his own way to travel would be fun for him. the whole 'grow a tardis' deleted scene was always dumb to me though, because despite how organic the ninth and tenth doctor's tardis looked like, it's still a machine. i don't think you can grow timelord technology. so that's out of the question. he would never see his old companions again. donna? martha? sarah jane? none of them? and, the biggest to me - his tardis? there is no way you can convince me the doctor would accept never seeing his beloved tardis again.

the doctor's reason for living is exploring the universe and travelling in his ship. so for him to give it up to stay with rose in pete's world doesn't seem romantic to me, it feels tragic. while rose may have wanted to settle down eventually, she knew he wouldn't. and he shouldn't have too. they both wanted different things so to make her get this ending that was forced upon him feels really unfair.

the metacrisis was born out of the engine of the dalek ship and donna's fear. and maybe 1 hour later he's exiled from everyone. to live this human life he's been intriguied by but never wanted. we find it in s3 he has a whole machine to make himself human. he. doesn't want. it. but now he hasn't got a choice. and for rose to jump on him right in front of the original doctor was just the cherry on top of a selfish cake which was even crazier considering that even rose was protesting that she didn't want this either.

none of it feels great. i'd much have preferred for rose to have gotten over it and live better for her experience in pete's world. the very idea of her growing colder and more selfish felt realistic though. but i don't think she should have been rewarded for it though.

i'm just not a fan.

[lookmomitsmytmblr]

OOO so true. I saw your tags about how nine/rose had her calling him out a lot more, which was exactly what I read and made me like their dynamic a lot more. Then with ten it just felt so much like they 1: enabled each other too much and 2: she was really kind of pushy with him about wanting more from their relationship romanc-y wise.

With nine/rose I really liked how she had the self-respect to be really quite offended when people suggested they were and item and was straight up with him when he was being a twit. They seemed like friends. With ten/rose I got the vibe that being friends was "not enough" and she didn't seem sensitive at all to the legitimate objections he had to having a relationship with a human. IMO RDT actually canonized that Rose couldn't deal with the alien aspects (read: important parts of who he is) of him with the metacrisis Doctor and her conclusion in s4. I mean, I was so offended when she just put him on the spot to MAKE him say "I love you" and then started kissing his clone right in front of him because he could say it... I mean girl, you do remember why he doesn't do that sort of thing right? Because he is always going to have to watch you die? It was so inconsiderate of her smh.

I won't go into the MESS with Mickey because I just tried to pretend it wasn't happening because it was so stupid.

Okay but like from a writing standpoint there is no reason RTD and company had to change the dynamic in this way. If they really are supposed to be soulmates furrevahhhh(TM) then that's just lousy writing. As it turned out, the first assumption I had when watching the shift in the dynamic between Doctor/Rose after his regeneration was that she found him more superficially attractive and therefore started treating him different. However, this writing of their relationship could be granted meaning as an exploration of what type of person would truly be an equal and partner for the Doctor; if this was the case, Rose would truly have served the role of a character who loved the Doctor, but was unable to truly hold space (lol) for his alien-ness, as well as someone who could be swayed by his superficial changes through regenerations because she didn't quite see past the surface.

TLDR: There was no reason for the writers to make the ten/rose relationship less equal and mutually beneficial than the nine/rose dynamic, but this choice could have been easily justified by using Rose as a character to set up some of the traits that would need to be present in a romantic partner for the Doctor through her NOT having them. But RTD decided that he likes her too much so now the writing is just confusing.

I think that even if Rose and Ten hadn't been separated in Doomsday, Donna still would have told the Doctor that he needs someone to stop him, because the dynamic that Ten and Rose had wasn't that.

[northernfireart]

there is no doubt that Doctor is the little spoon. Im just speaking the truth

[mfshipbracket]

[leikeliscomet]

“But We Love Martha Jones!” - The Doctor Who Fandom’s Selective Memory of Racism

Be aware that this article contains explicit examples of anti-black racism and misogynoir.

Chapter 2 - Utopia-ish

The constant nitpicking of Martha Jones for reasons white female companions could get away with was blatant anti-black racism. Let’s get that bit clear first and foremost. As a Black person in fandom, watching Black characters get torn apart while never being given the grace of their non-Black castmates is an experience that’s too common. Microaggressions are more subtle so the easiest way to shut down any mentions of racism is to accuse Black fans of making things up or telling us “Well it’s not like REAL racism”. Luckily Doctor Who Tumblr birthed the Martha Jones affirmative action and Aunt Jemima “memes” so I can cross both covert and overt racism off the list. As mentioned in extensive detail in the previous chapter, plus the various Martha Jones articles written before me, the treatment Martha experienced was racist. I don’t care if you personally didn’t like her. I don’t care that you missed Rose. I don’t care that Ten is your smol bean. Martha’s treatment was racist. Freema Agyeman’s treatment was racist. It might not have been everyone. It might not have been you personally. But it was there. The fandom can never be a safe space for POC, specifically Black people if this elephant in the room can’t be addressed over a decade after it arrived.

On paper, you’d assume Martha’s rep was good because “at least she wasn’t a Black stereotype”. Some fans praised her for having a present father, not speaking MLE and not being from the ends. This goes into respectability politics but the fandom’s weirdness about Black Brits and class is not the point of this article. The point is the revisionist history of how Martha was really treated and to do that it helps to know what Black tropes are. The Mammy trope is a Black woman whose main purpose is to serve her white counterparts and during slavery, she mainly cared for the slave owners' children. She is usually fat, dark skin and asexual, not as a representation of those things but as a statement of how if she isn’t used for sexual exploitation like the Jezebel (the promiscuous, reckless, sexualised Black woman), she has no sexual value at all. Her value is serving the needs of others only. Martha doesn’t fit this trope in theory but in practice, she fulfils the sub-categories of this trope both in show and fandom: the disposable Black (girl)friend trope. She is used as Ten’s emotional punching bag before he’s ready for Donna and then Rose again. She had to endure edgy moody S3 Ten so no one else had to. She’s the excuse people use to deflect any critical analysis of how race was handled in RTD1. She’s the fandom’s excuse to deflect from their own racial biases. Racism? No way! Everybody loves Martha Jones! What do you mean?

Some parts of the fandom have tried to mend things by suggesting Martha be paired with other doctors or romantically shipping her with other characters a bit better than Mickey Smith. But does this hold up? As much as I’m a big fan NineMartha as a concept and as someone who honestly saw one-off characters like Riley Vashtee from 42 or Tallulah from Daleks in Manhattan having way more romantic chemistry with Martha than Mickey ever did, simply re-shipping Martha isn’t enough. Doctor Who’s racism isn't exclusive to one doctor, one series or one era and new Martha pairings suggest the issue was “right person, wrong doctor” instead of what the issue actually was: racism. Moffat and Chibnall’s eras weren’t full of golden Black representation either so I doubt the Martha issue would’ve magically disappeared under those two. From Nine’s hostility to Mickey, to Twelve’s hostility to Danny Pink to Thirteen handing a South Asian Spymaster to the Nazis and Eleven only travelling with POC in comics most fans haven’t heard of and being besties with Churchill, simply putting Martha with another Doctor isn’t the serve fans think it is. Even RoseMartha seems like putting a bandaid on a bullet hole. If it's not enough for Martha to be compared to Rose, put down in favour of Rose, told she isn’t Rose and told she's worse than Rose in fandom and in show over and over and over, she has to be shipped with Rose too. Martha’s a great character… as long as you can tie her to Rose… again. Even in my own article I have to talk about Rose because Rose is centred in what was supposed to be Martha’s story. A doctor-to-be Black girl from London with a hectic family meets a Time Lord and gets abducted by space rhino police at work in one day. Her main conflict isn’t balancing work and time traveller life, or fighting to get her family back together, or seeing what’s out there in the universe - it's that she isn’t “Rose” enough. The Mammy and her sons’ main thing in common is simple; how well they serve and centre the white characters. In attempts to mend Martha’s treatment she is still only valued in relation to white characters. She should’ve been with Eleven because he would’ve fucked a Black woman. Or maybe Dilfy Twelve. Or a sapphic romance with another female companion who she saw twice or doesn’t actually know. Or maybe Ten in an alternate universe where he supports #nubianqueens. None of this is done to explore sexuality or romance with Black women and is definitely not to centre Black lesbianism and bisexuality. It’s Mammy with a dash of Jezebel. It's adding romantic and sexual value on top of physical and emotional value like a crappy meal deal.

I’m tired of Black women being treated as extensions of white women both in media and in real life. I’m tired of our value being determined by how well we serve white people emotionally, physically, platonically and sexually. And I'm even more tired of white feminism especially in this fandom. It would be so easy to label this article as anti-Rose, anti-Ten or anti-Tenrose to invalidate my whole racial analysis because it's the easy way out. I’ll admit I like both characters individually but not the ship but this isn’t something I decided on since birth - it's my conclusion as a Black fan in a predominantly white fandom, watching a predominantly white show, watching the first companion of my race be told she isn’t good enough compared to the white characters, and that the hatred of her is justified for the greater good of its popular white ship. Black fans can never have this conversation without being told we’re “pitting women against each other” and that Martha and Rose hugged once in S4 so everything's hunky dory. Martha’s happy that Ten found Rose again so what’s the problem? It sends a clear message that Black women’s pain will never matter a much as white women’s feelings. “Rose is amazing! Martha’s amazing! Stop pitting women against women!” but who was pit against who in the first place? These faux girl power posts fail to acknowledge the overlap of race and gender which separates the treatment of Black and white women. It fails to acknowledge Martha’s hate was rooted in anti-black racism. It fails to acknowledge the anti-Rose pushback was in response to how the show and fandom convinced us Rose was the untouchable bar this Black woman failed to meet. It fails to acknowledge Freema Agyeman the actress was targeted not just her character. It fails because the female empowerment rhetoric that leaves the Black ones at the bottom of the pile only “empowers” women of a certain demographic.

The harassment Martha experienced was swept under the rug of “stan wars” but it was so much deeper than that. I’m not saying Martha stans are angels but there was no “Great Stan War” because the sides were never even. At the end of the day no amount of “Martha’s better than Rose” tweets will ever compare to the fact that Martha hate was rooted in misogynoir. Rose was and still is considered the greatest companion of nuwho, whilst Martha is constantly erased and undervalued. Rose’s video views and hashtags have always been bigger than Martha’s. Amy and Clara came after Martha but still surpassed her in popularity and got plenty of fan edits of “The Girl Who Waited” and “The Impossible Girl” whilst Martha was conveniently skipped in the companion lineup. The fandom’s bias still shines clearly in favour of Rose over Martha. Rose’s jealousy towards other women is justifiable and just the ups and downs of a 19-year-old whilst Martha’s is entitled bitterness. Rose’s flaws are compelling character moments and depth, Martha’s are “holding her back from being a good companion”. Hell, even Donna calling out Ten’s BS was entertaining accountability whilst Martha was just the angry Black woman. Fans will weaponise Rose’s working-class roots to imply a pro-Martha bias, failing to acknowledge the working-class to poor background of the average Black Brit, the anti-blackness middle-class Black people are not spared from, the many working-class Black characters of the show like Mickey, Bill, Rigsy and Ryan or how most fans don’t consider Martha middle class because she doesn’t fit the white British cultural stereotypes. You can't be the most loved and hated at the same time. The hard truth is Billie Piper wasn’t racially abused by Martha stans but Freema was absolutely racially abused by Rose’s and the effects of this are still around. Go into Martha Jones tags today and you’ll see snarky posts of how Ten could never love another companion like Rose. Even when Freema bravely shared her experiences of literal racism, fans were quick to yell “But I wanted Ten and Rose though” as a justification for years of misogynoir. Again, we need to address the elephant in the room instead of covering our eyes and ears to act like it’s not there. A Black character and actress was collateral damage in order for a popular white ship to rise and whilst I’m not an anti, I as a Black Doctor Who fan, I’ll never be a supporter. At the end of the day, only one of these actresses is still carrying the burden of misogynoir over 10 years since RTD1 ended. A lonely walk across the Earth yet again.

<- Chapter 1 Chapter 3 ->

[ebenelephant]

Like, I love Rose, but I feel like she's too often put in a pedestal by the fandom. If you want to show that she's a favourite character, shouldn't that be flaws and all? One of the threads that runs through her character is that even though she's selfless in the saving-the-world-for-the-greater-good sense, she can still he individually selfish in a lot of ways regarding her relationships, jealousies, disregard for her loved one's points of view, and the way that her actions do affect them. (*cough* maybe a reason she and the doctor get on so well *cough*) But then I guess she is just a teenager :/

Does anyone else not particularly like Rose Tyler as an adult? She just sort of? Annoys me? But less during her Christopher Eccleston era I guess?.

My points majorly are these few…

:Like other companions, she runs away with the Doctor, but when she comes back, she doesn’t really even seem to care that her BOYFRIEND was basically getting accused of murder because she was gone for a year? And then she continues to Abandon and use the guy, until finally HE leaves her and she’s like “wha? 🥺 but Mickey?? I need you? You can’t leave me?” . (Edit:Someone pointed out that Amy was the same in the beginning and while I absolutely agree that she treated Rory awful in the beginning, I’m at least comforted by her Romance redemption in later Episodes/seasons because my boy deserves the best)

:She gets fucking HORRIBLE when she’s jealous, Despite the fact that she flirts and basically dates like three other guys while with the Doctor (Mickey, that one guy from the Dalek episode, captain Jack sort of?). Like I just watched a scene where the Doctor mentions a random extra that happens to be a woman and Rose just turns into an instant bitch about it.

I don’t know why they decided to make her character that way, because in some episodes, I actually really like her personality? How fearless she is and how kind she can be when someone really needs it? And sometimes she was just proper funny-but i don’t know? It just gets to me that it’s like she basically has two different personalities.

And okay, you can say it’s because she’s in love with the Doctor, which she is. But being in love doesn’t have to make you so TOXIC all the time?.

I have issues with other companions and the Doctor Themself, but Right now I’m just a little Anti-Rose in particular

(Also like a quick little note, Gang, homies, Whovians. This isn’t like, an attack on Rose Lovers. I Love Doctor Who like the Wee little British girl I am-but like I said, I have issues with a lot of characters, even the ones I adore, because I focus on like every tiny little detail like the hyper-fixating nerd I am. My current rant just stems around Rose in particular from my adult views).

[withthekeyisking-writer]

Fic in a Box 2024 Fics

Hello folks! I have four new fics curtesy of FIAB, 3 for Critical Role and 1 for Doctor Who. Check 'em out!

a strange charade, a dance

Doctor Who Eleventh Doctor/Rose Tyler, Ninth Doctor/Rose Tyler The Doctor, while avoiding his future and his friends who will call him out on it, goes wandering back through time to see a familiar face.

Let the Old Ways Die

Critical Role Astrid Beck & Caleb Widogast, Astrid Beck/Eadwulf Grieve/Caleb Widogast, Essek Thelyss/Caleb Widogast, Beauregard Lionett & Caleb Widogast Caleb might've declined the Martinet's offer to become the new Archmage of Civil Influence, but that does not mean the drama of the Cerberus Assembly is done with him.

Pretty Good

Critical Role Fearne Calloway/Ashton Greymoore Ashton is used to touch hurting. Fearne sets his nerves on fire in a very different way.

Dear Fellow Traveler (underneath the moon)

Critical Role Orym/Dorian Storm "I wanted to ask you something." Orym looks up at Dorian, quirking a smile. "Shoot." "What did you mean when you said you made a deal with Fearne's grandmother?"

[lesbicosmos]

so this year my mom bought me some of those blank wooden christmas decorations and told me to make whatever with them to put on the tree

so here are my masterpieces

all of the modern who doctors (ten and rose come as a pair and are not to be separated.)

aziraphale and crowley (ft. my amazing photoshop skills)

david tennant as a star because obviously

and my personal favourite

christmas edition evil bendy 14

[dandelionjack]

the wikipedia page for the parting of the ways says that some critic in 2005 was left frustrated with rose's brief moment of omnipotence, calling it a deus ex machina solution. the problem with that comment, though, is that it doesn't succeed at finding a legitimate fault, even though it tries its hardest to point one out: instead it slips and becomes further evidence of the genius of the narrative. of course there's a deus ex machina. bad wolf rose is, after all, a literal goddess emerging from the machine

[khruschevshoe]

Doctor Who and Season Finales

As much as I love Bad Wolf/The Parting of the Ways (and I REALLY, REALLY love them), hot take of the century: Utopia/Sound of Drums/Last of the Time Lords is really trying to steal its place as my favorite season finale in all of NuWho. Like, it hits on every level. The build-up, the payoff, the emotions, Martha, Jack, and the Doctor as characters, an exploration of the flaws of the Doctor, THE SCORE, the iconic reintroduction of the Master, etc. As much as I appreciate Doomsday and Journey's End from an emotional point of view, the writing is just SO SOLID in the Season 1 & Season 3 finales.

Also, there's really something to be said about this one and Bad Wolf having some of the best foreshadowing/set-up/payoff of any season arc in NuWho, in that the set-up was seeded PERFECTLY without taking away a bunch of screentime away from the plots of episodes (a problem with Moffat), wasn't too overly complicated (problem with Moffat and Chibnall) or lore-destroying (problem with Chibnall).

In this essay I will-

[incorrectquotesconaisseur]

under the lake is to twelveclara what tooth and claw is to tenrose

[doctorwhatpodcast]

Alright, our episode on “Bad Wolf” is out on both YouTube and Spotify!

The end is nigh...the Doctor, Rose, and Jack find their way back to Satellite 5. Sara is blinded by their thirst for Jane Lynch, Jeannette introduces us to the world of "'nyming," and we all rage over the lack of Captain Jack Harkness cheeks.

Link in the pinned post.

[theflashjaygarrick]

It's wild to me that in an era of hyperawareness around age gaps in relationships (both fictional and real), I have seen such little discussion about the doctor/rose age gap.

Like she's 19! A teenager! Who canonically says she has not much else going on in her life except her much older love interest!

Regardless of the parts of their love story that were done well, the set up of their dynamic is admittedly pretty weird.

[casa-supernova]

anyways, i'm still really annoyed that my master post about how badly race was handled in series 3 is gone, so i'm going to remind you all again. martha jones. black medical student who definitely would have been dealing with medical racism as well as general microaggressions. her family. the biggest in the rtd era and the most underutilised. making francine the angry black woman with little to no build up, making her antagonistic to the point of violence with barely any plot. no mention of the impact a father who ran off with a younger white woman would have.

shakespearean london. 1599. two years after the queen tried to expell black people from the town and ship them off as chattel, making martha's concern worryingly accurate. having the doctor dismiss these concerns making him sound like an idiot. shakespeare's fetishisation of martha. the doctor's unnecessarily aggresive, dismissive and simultaneously suggestive attitude with her. manhattan, 1930. excused away having to deal with the inevitable racism by throwing in a line by a black actor to show the writers didn't feel like dealing with it, despite race relation getting worse during the depression. still keeping at the needlessly suggestive scenes and lines aimed at martha - it is not funny or endearing for the doctor to pick up her knickers. i admit his "busy doing stuff" line with francine WAS funny, but overall, i'm not impressed with the borderline inappropriate innuendos levied at martha her season. right down to john smith asking martha what she 'does' for the doctor. and speaking of 1913. the only two parter to actively treat racism as if it exists...until it decides to reward joan (and john for the matter) with narrative sympathy. then we get 1969, another racially unstable era, especially as it's london. any black brit who was around in that era will tell you. and then the master and his jibes about ticking boxes off in demographics which is definitely supposed to be a jab at actual critique of the show but just makes him seem prejudiced also. which isn't exactly helped by him enslaving the jones', maid outfits and all.

not to mention subverting the first female black companion in the tv show's onscreen history into the doctor's. the first and only time they've done this thank god. to sideline her in her own story and constantly and negatively comparing her to the white predecessor was such a huge and avoidable error. not to mention completely forgetting her in 'the doctor's daughter,' seperating her from everyone for the majority of the s4 finale and pairing her off with the only other black male in the cast.

come on.