#robb stark i will develop you even if no one else will

[amber-laughs]

“She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything.” - Storm of Swords Jon XII

to

“He was better than me at everything.
Fighting and hunting and riding and girls.
Gods, the girls loved him.
I wanted to hate him, but I never could.” - Game of Thrones S4 E1

bothers me so bad. the robb/jon dynamic was butchered in a million ways but my least favorite was this. jon isn’t jealous because robb is better than him, jon is jealous bc he is better, or at least equal, but it will never matter because of his birth.

and this isn’t me sucking jon’s dick. i love this for robb’s development. he is so obviously insecure about being lord/king. imagine him wondering if people around him are disappointed that it’s him instead of his bastard brother. wondering if his father would have prefered jon. wondering if his mother wants jon gone because she doesn’t believe the lords will accept him if jon is standing next to him. wondering if maybe he wants jon gone too. both of them being wrapped up in insecurity and loving each other through it. GODDAMIT they could’ve done so much with that relationship but instead they cut and cut until viewers forgot they even knew each other

[pixiecactus]

these are just my thoughts, so you know, nothing to take seriously... but i discovered that it really irks me when people say that lyanna's "romantic" decisions are purely sansa.

and yeah, sure, sansa is an idealist that loves romantic stories, but here comes my hot take. i do see sansa more as being one of those people that are enchanted and obsessed with the concept of love, rather than loving someone herself... and if we look at her part in the narrative looking for romance, it's lacking for sure, other than the stuff going on with the hound (which is clearly somewhat romantic... no, i don't ship it, but i can see what the author was doing, like c'mon this is the man that has a sansan poster hanging in his walls) there's nothing else or no one else that has a little bit of romantic focus. everyone knows what happened with joffrey, littlefinger is grooming her (do i have to explain that this isn't romantic at all?), and i'm one of those people who thinks that harry the heir is her best option, considering what sansa likes, and that is a pretty and chivalrous man of noble birth... i get that people have a problem with him because he looks at her as someone lesser than him, because she's hiding as a bastard, but then again, for me, it's just an example of how much alike sansa and harry are.

maybe i'm just frustrated with the lack of development that sansa has in all five books, but i would like her to be able to discover herself, what she actually likes with a realist focus rather than an idealist one, from a partner. she should know by now that everyone can hurt you no matter how beautiful they are or what position of power they hold in society... and that maybe will take some time... so i like the idea of sansa going through life without a romantic partner with the hope she's able to get some retrospection on herself and her actions. 

do i think this is going to happen? not at all, i'm pretty sure that littlefinger will get his way at first and that he will get sansa married to harry... which will make her a bigamist since she's still married to tyrion. so that will make another problem for her to tackle alongside being disinherited in robb's will...

another thing i think it's pretty common when people say that sansa is the one that heredited lyanna's "romantic" side is that these same types of people try to erase completely all the romantic tropes and foreshadowing that arya's story has... because... how can a girl who is gender non-conforming get a romantic plot?

honestly, i don't know why she couldn't get one... but i think that means you have a little problem to check out if you actually think that girls or women that are gender non-conforming deserve less than their gender conforming peers and that the lastest are superior in any way, shape, or form.

what we can't deny is that the author set up a deep connection between arya and the possible son of rhaegar targaryen and lyanna stark, for arya, jon is the only person in the world who will love her no matter what.

what is a little more funny coming from the author is that he made us observe arya stark and the son of robert baratheon get close and become friends that got a little crush on each other before they fell out and became separated.

so the author set up arya stark as the character who has not only love coming from rhaegar targaryen's son but devotion coming from robert baratheon's son as well.

i do think that what people don't want to even consider is that arya stark is a passionate character; she will defend those she loves from all threats possible, fighting tooth and nail.

and lyanna was the very same (and that's why i fully believe that lyanna and rhaegar were in love with each other... lyanna was intelligent, just as arya is, and arya had no problem recognizing that joffrey baratheon was a pretty prince, but at the same time she could appreciate that he was a horrible person with ease, his beauty and his titles be dammed, but i digress)

[sansacherie]

"Men would say she had my look."

There's something about the way Sansa looks like Catelyn, an accident of birth that she isn't rewarded for.

Firstly, it's a source of Arya's resentment towards her. Arya already resents her older sister for being "perfect" without having to try whereas Sansa resents Arya for not trying enough in her eyes. Both are wrong. But anyway, to Arya it's bad enough that Sansa is already ahead, does she have to look like Catelyn too?

It's the cause of Littlefinger's obsession with her. He has her framed for murder because he doesn't want Cat's daughter to rely on anyone else but him. He is a grown man contenting himself with forcing kisses on a thirteen-year-old girl because he knows he can't force himself into her bed yet. He is going to die.

Lysa, who could have taken a chance to make amends after realizing- "My god, what have I done", when she learns that the sister, she tricked into going to war with the Lannisters is now dead after she and Robb- the nephew Lysa held when he was hours old at Riverrun- was butchered at a wedding by them. She could have chosen to see Sansa as a way of honoring Catelyn's memory. Instead, all she sees is how much Sansa looks like Catelyn. Too much. And it's not because Sansa is wanted for murder. No, in the end it turns out Lysa is more bothered by the fact that Sansa is the spitting image of the woman who Lysa thinks tried to steal Petyr away. And she tries to murder her traumatized niece. She dies because of it.

Sansa is beautiful because she looks like Catelyn, in the same Arya will develop Lyanna's wild beauty because she looks like her lost aunt. But Sansa being beautiful is literally the reason why Tyrion wasn't forced into marrying her. He had a choice, and he chose Sansa because she's beautiful. She's forced to marry her enemy because he was literally attracted to her and decided he'd rather have the beautiful child instead of the plain, older woman. As much as Joffrey hates Sansa, the text shows him lusting after her because of her looks. He assaults her and would have graduated to rape if he survived his wedding and Sansa never escaped Kingslanding. Let's not forget the awful way the Hound treats her.

So yeah, with all this background/context I'm just going to find it really cathartic when Sansa is reunited with people who will find it bittersweet seeing Sansa because of how much she looks like their lost mother/sister/niece. You can't tell me Arya and Bran won't get emotional at seeing how much Sansa looks like the mother they miss, in the same way, Sansa won't get emotional over how much Arya looks like the father they miss?

I also love it because with the whole "how will Sansa prove her identity without Lady"- um BECAUSE of Catelyn. She is the spitting image of Catelyn Tully, wife of Ned Stark. Lady of Winterfell for 15 years. The Northern lords damn well knew she was.

I love it because in the end Sansa looking like Catelyn is going to work in her favor. The very thing that this fandom has bizarrely used as one of their pieces of "evidence" to argue is that she isn't really a Stark (even though in the books none of Cat and Ned's kids look like Ned except Arya) because she has Tully looks... will be the very thing to validate her Stark identity.

[fromtheseventhhell]

You cant just pitch the idea of Arya naming her son Micah and moving on like you didn't shatter my heart. Naming her son after the first true experience of violence and injustice before her eyes, and it happened to a normal kid who was just being her friend snd honouring a kid who no one but her would ever remember forever in naming a son after him.

I love the idea of the Starks naming their kids after characters theyve lost in the story and no one knowing where Arya got Micah from. But its okay. She remembers Micah, and now in a special way, everyone else will now too.

LISTEN, Arya and Mycah mean so much to me and I think about them a lot. Their relationship was so short-lived but it's such a significant moment in the story and to Arya's development. She is the only one who stood up for that poor boy, the only one to remember him, and the only one who tries to get justice for him. She's remembered him even books later, so I can definitely see her remembering him even longer down the line. I also think that the next generation will have some familiar names (I can definitely see some Ned's and Robb's down the line) and it would be so beautiful if Arya named a child after Mycah and kept his memory alive.

[jonsnowunemploymentera]

The thing about Bran's intended importance (supposedly kingship of all no less) is it falls flat as far as this due to the lack of hinting of... what that even is supposed to "do" in the grand scheme of things? The show's version of some totalitarian regime with 24/7 surveillance from the magical King is fucked up, and it's hard to understand what else would make Bran special otherwise.

The only people interested in the idea (and only as surface level) are big Stark only Stans who just see it as "Starks get everything because" and that's as deep as it gets.

The idea of who would have leadership to rebuild the world is too much built on stanning as a whole. The only ones with an actual leg to stand on are fans of Daenerys simply because her entire arc is trying at different things to restructure an oppressive elite based governing only to at this point end up with the realisation that their class simply cannot exist in a society without seeking to opress so they have to go. That's also what we see in Westeros, so both monarchy AND lordship power must be evaporated. So there's that.

But Martin isn't even angling for that as far as it seems (which would mean even Targaryens and Daenerys relinquishing power by the end and all, even if it would be the system she is currently trying to develop to be applied), but angles for a 'King'. One whose power is magic, which makes one think it is what would make him King, hence angling for the show end which is frightening as a form of government. And in the 'political' sense he's a nice kid who means well for others, but that's it. It's just the whole having a nice lord now and then without guarantee for the next.

So while it might be little page time and some unfairness for Bran, outside of people just stanning "Stark supremacy" in vague terms, it's hard to think of why and in what direction people would 'root' for Bran in the specific intended importance of role he's apparently meant to have.

Whew, you sent a big one. So I’ll try to break it up and answer in parts.

The thing about Bran's intended importance (supposedly kingship of all no less) is it falls flat as far as this due to the lack of hinting of.

I disagree. I think GRRM has been hinting at Bran being a return to the past - more specifically, a greenseer king. And even before that, Bran’s royal status has been front and center the whole time. It’s just ignored.

We as a fandom get so caught up with the magic part of Bran’s storyline (though we can’t be blamed really!) but forget that Bran’s book chapters often place his magical arc right along his identity and status as a lost prince. I’m gonna make a bit of a generalization here and say that the majority of Bran’s chapters since Robb’s ascension mention his status as the current heir to the Northern crown. He is the Prince of Winterfell. But not only that, he is the prince of the woods and the hills and the greens (we see this language being used for Bran once he begins his greenseer training). This princehood is actually extended to Bran’s direwolf, Summer. Bran’s princehood extending to Summer is quite poignant too, since the direwolf is directly named to be an opposition to winter, and Bran’s mythological parallels rule as summer kings.

Bran’s magical arc doesn’t remove him from his royal heritage. It only reinforces it. Again, think of how he becomes a prince of the natural world in an almost literal sense. And also the motifs used for his royal status: e.g., when Jojen and Meera Reed swear fealty to him, as their royal prince, through ice and fire (in addition to other natural elements).

The show took the route of placing Bran squarely in the magical arc, forgetting that first and foremost, he is an exiled prince. After Robb died, Bran became an exiled king. The main point here is that Bran is royal! He always has been, always will be. Heck, his very name literally means “Prince”.

And there’s other things about Bran’s storyline that aren’t very clear with the show’s depiction; I’m mentioning it here since people’s aversion to king Bran is mainly the show’s fault. Bran is a retelling of various Arthurian myths. You might have seen various meta on his similarities with the Fisher King, for example. I’ve written before about how Bran is also very similar to T.H White’s Wart from The Sword in the Stone (sorry, can’t find the meta link). Because the show removed the royal elements from Bran’s story, viewers weren’t able to catch that he is intended to follow the King Arthur trajectory, albeit with various twists.

When I first joined the fandom, the consensus among Bran fans was that he would be King in the North (a big theory at that time was that Westeros would split back into its pre-Targaryen markups). The idea was that there are way too many hints about Bran’s princehood, especially in relation to the North, so the only endgame that made sense was for him to rule it. And Bran does have a mini ruling arc in Winterfell in ACOK, which was good ammo for this theory.

So Bran’s relation to kingship has always been there. For years in fact; I joined this fandom over a decade ago. It’s just that no one expected his kingship would extend to all of Westeros. And I think that will be GRRM’s task, tying in why Bran will take not just the North, but the south as well. However, I have the inkling that Bran the Builder’s legend ties into this (and we know that he had a legacy all over Westeros).

what that even is supposed to "do" in the grand scheme of things?

Blame the show runners for this. They do not at all understand Bran’s importance to the narrative. And I don’t think a majority of readers understand it either. I mentioned Bran the Builder above. Well, he’s a legend that crops up sometime around the Long Night. Now we have a new war with the Others coming up, and little Bran Stark is Bran the Builder come again. Plus Bran has parallels with the last hero, who is credited with ending the Long Night. We still have two books to see how things shake out but given that Bran is following the trajectory of perhaps two of the most important legends from the War for the Dawn - one who ended it and one who rebuilt Westeros after - it’s easy to tell why he is important “in the grand scheme of things”. But we still need TWOW and ADOS to see how it all plays out. Remember, we only have a published 5 books, and Act II is barely finished!

The show's version of some totalitarian regime with 24/7 surveillance from the magical King is fucked up, and it's hard to understand what else would make Bran special otherwise.

I 100% agree that Show Bran’s ascension comes with some very problematic undertones, in addition to being totally stupid. But again, blame the showrunners for not understanding greenseeing and Bran’s relation to it. Greenseeing is, as I understand it, nature magic. It’s not just that Bran gains the ability to see through ravens and trees, but he can speak to nature as well. He can even shape it (ref Hammer of the Waters). This is going to be really important when Westeros is decimated in the War for the Dawn, and needs to be rebuilt. That’s why Bran being the prince of the “woods and the hills” and being the reincarnation (so to speak) of Bran the Builder is so important. He can rebuild Westeros. This is a very unique skill set that literally no one else has because once Bloodraven croaks, Bran inherits the mantle of the Last Greenseer.

The only people interested in the idea (and only as surface level) are big Stark only Stans who just see it as "Starks get everything because" and that's as deep as it gets.

I’ll join you in being annoyed with that particular brand of Stark fan (we all know who they are). But I just want to remind you that so many of us Bran stans (in fact the vast majority of us) do not fall within that group. Bran stans who advocate for Bran’s kingship do so because we have noted his Arthurian parallels, in addition to noting his arc as a prince in hiding/exile. None of us book fans even remotely believe in him being an all seeing autocrat, nor do we want him to be. It’s a certain type of Stark fan (again, we know who they are), who likes the idea of King Bran because they also believe in an independent North. I think an independent North (with a separate six kingdoms) as endgame is a rather ridiculous idea, and I haven’t got around to detailing why in my blog. But as far as I’m concerned if Bran is to be king, he will be king of everything.

The idea of who would have leadership to rebuild the world is too much built on stanning as a whole.

Super agree! I think the POV structure exacerbates this issue. So a majority of “who will be king”, “who deserves to be king” is solely dependent on who the reader likes best (i.e., who has the biggest fandom) and not who is most narratively suited for the role. Ironically, Bran is hurt but this because he has a pretty small fandom; by far the smallest out of the Stark POVs. So he does not benefit much from solo stanning. Again, the typical Bran stan does not believe in Starkception. If readers chose to theorize the endgame king based on who is most narratively/thematically suited for the role, wouldn’t the boy whose animal familiar is named to be the opposite of winter and likened to a prince of nature be among the most popular options?

The only ones with an actual leg to stand on are fans of Daenerys simply because her entire arc is trying at different things to restructure an oppressive elite based governing only to at this point end up with the realisation that their class simply cannot exist in a society without seeking to opress so they have to go.

Agree with Dany, but I think you’re also forgetting about a young lord commander whose entire rulership arc was about being a revolutionary in a rotten and backward system…

P.S: Jon stans can be really annoying too (I would know, I am one), but they’re not wrong when they say that he actually is the one character with the most foreshadowing for “endgame king”; he is literally King Arthur through and through, so 🤷🏽‍♀️

That's also what we see in Westeros, so both monarchy AND lordship power must be evaporated. So there's that.

It’ll be interesting to see how Martin’s critiques on feudal structures plays into the endgame leaders. Especially when we begin to factor in the thematic relevance of stories like Brienne’s and Arya’s among the smallfolk, as well as the upcoming war with the Others and how the feudal structure might do more harm than good.

I tend to have a more optimistic outlook tbh. Winter means death, and I think that will also ring true for a lot of the problematic elements in Westeros’ political and social structure. And let’s not forget that we have a bunch of civil upheavals coming up with Aegon and Daenerys both invading Westeros. I think a lot of these petty lords will die either in battle or during the long winter that’s sure to follow, so what’s left when all is said and done is having our heroes (Bran and Dany and Jon etc.) pick up the pieces. I tend to believe that a massive shake up is in the works such that while it might have been impossible for a crippled boy to rise to kingship in the AGOT era, it just might be the one remedy in ADOS.

But Martin isn't even angling for that as far as it seems (which would mean even Targaryens and Daenerys relinquishing power by the end and all, even if it would be the system she is currently trying to develop to be applied), but angles for a 'King'. One whose power is magic, which makes one think it is what would make him King, hence angling for the show end which is frightening as a form of government. And in the 'political' sense he's a nice kid who means well for others, but that's it.

This is another thing that I blame the show for: people thinking Bran can only be an all seeing tyrant. I’ve already touched on this above but again, Bran’s greenseeing magic is so much more. It’s about nature…healing….Summer! I’ve been meaning to write at length about why the resetting of the seasons will fall to Bran, and why that means healing for Westeros as a whole, but I’ll abbreviate my thoughts for now.

Let’s once again consider Bran as a Fisher King, whose very life is tied to the healing of the land. Now, I think Martin is going for a rather “fairy tale” or fantastical resolution to ASOIAF; an ending closer to Tolkien and Arthurian myth. Bran’s magic, as healing magic, is then meant to be a positive. He sets the world back to rights, as a Fisher King would. He quite literally drives the darkness (winter) away, and GRRM has stated multiple times that the Others are the true threat.

In my write up about Bran’s similarities to Wart, I mentioned that Bran’s ascension could end up being similar to Aragorn’s in LOTR (and we know that Tolkien has heavily influenced Martin). Aragorn became king not because of his swordsmanship or his politics or even his royal claim, but because he had hands of healing. And people said that there was a king who returned to them because he healed them. Healing and kingship is really not a novel thing, and they’re tied to medieval understanding of rulership. So it’s not hard to see why Bran’s magical ability to bring back summer, so to speak, can be taken as a positive of him being a rightful king.

It's just the whole having a nice lord now and then without guarantee for the next.

I get what you mean, but tbh this would be a problem with Jon, Dany, etc. Monarchy and inheritance are unpredictable. We can only hope that the king/lord trains his heir well so that prosperity follows with the exchange of power.

So while it might be little page time and some unfairness for Bran, outside of people just stanning "Stark supremacy" in vague terms, it's hard to think of why and in what direction people would 'root' for Bran in the specific intended importance of role he's apparently meant to have.

Hopefully it’s been quite clear in my reply why Bran as king is so thematically rich. He’s connected to summer, has greenseeing magic which is connected to nature and potentially the healing of nature, and he is already royal. Him being a “nice kid” is just the cherry on top.

[laurellerual]

Realistically it's more helpful to use material written by George Martin to theorize about what's going to happen in his books, rather than books written by other people.

So where is the evidence that Gendry is prejudiced against wargs? He doesn't even know what they are. The only times Gendry has to deal with this side of Arya he seems to accept what she says to him without any problems or particular judgments:

She must have slept, though she never remembered closing her eyes. She dreamed a wolf was howling, and the sound was so terrible that it woke her at once. Arya sat up on her pallet with her heart thumping. "Hot Pie, wake up." She scrambled to her feet. "Woth, Gendry, didn't you hear?" She pulled on a boot. All around her, men and boys stirred and crawled from their pallets. "What's wrong?" Hot Pie asked. "Hear what?" Gendry wanted to know. "Arry had a bad dream," someone else said.

.

"You stay here with the horses," Arya said. "I'll get rid of him. Come quick when I call." Gendry knotted. Hot Pie said, "Hoot like an owl when you want us to come." "I'm not an owl," Arya said. "I'm a wolf. I'll howl”. […] When he stopped moving, she picked up the coin. Outside the walls of Harrenhal, a wolf howled long and loud. She lifted the bar, set it aside , and pulled open the heavy oak door. By the time Hot Pie and Gendry came up with the horses, the rain was falling hard. "You killed him!" Hot Pie gasped.

If there's one character in Arya's story who isn't obsessed with the supernatural, it's this guy. For example, he has already met the ghost of High Heart and had no particular reaction. When he witnessed the resurrection of Lord Beric, he merely acknowledged that the Red god probably exists and decided to join the Brotherhood. When Lady Stoneheart was resurrected the Brotherhood split but he decided to stay. Why would wargs be so inconceivable to a person who has seen a witch prophesy and two people resurrect before his eyes? If Gendry is prejudiced against the Old gods or magic he has never shown it.

First they are not her ancestors they are the Boltons' men, Robb's men, and Hoster Tully's men. These last two are the people Arya asks him to smith for. He has the right to have an opinion on them after the injustices he has seen them commit. However, he just watches her to see how she reacts to the news that her side is not has good as she tought.

Arya begins her journey in the Riverlands still convinced that "wolves don't eat babies" (to metaphorically quote her own words). Arya is wrong and it's a lesson she learns gradually. The very first step is when Mycah is killed and she realizes that her father's men don't give a damn about this injustice. But then along comes the Boltons, Robb's men, and Hoster's men… Post-Riverlands Arya no longer believes that “wolves don't eat babies”. Now she is a more mature and aware person.

Gendry remains with the Brotherhood even when their original mission is shelved because of Lady Stoneheart. Why? Because he doesn't have nowhere else to go? Yes. Because he is furious that the Freys killed an innocent girl, who was his friend? Probably.

But last we see him in AFFC he's not killing innocent Freys, he's protecting an orphanage. And I think it's interesting to note that when he had just met Arya he didn't care at all about protecting the children, in fact he was willing to abandon them to have a better chance of surviving. Wow character development.

Speaking of Brienne: the reader knows she is innocent. For the characters Brienne is the kingslayer's whore who goes around looking for the Stark girls with a Lannister red sword.

I wait for evidences that Gendry doesn't accept Arya as she is. But only if they come from ASOIAF books. And no, the fact that Gendry thinks highborns unfairly exploit lowborns isn't proof, because Arya totally agrees with him. Simply he knew it 'already 'cause he's lived in poverty all his life, but Arya has only recently experienced this so she need some time to process what is her role as a lady in this.

I don't know what 'meat boy' means.

[esther-dot]

On Jonsa "foreshadowing," I think it's definitely there in the books that they will restore Winterfell together. The thing is though, it may not be the full-blown romantic foreshadowing that many of us want to see. I think it more likely that we will see even more the sacrifices involved on the part of Sansa than on GOT. In repayment for Jon's protection and selflessness, she will try to right her mother's wrongs by accepting Jon and seeing him through his dark night of the soul when he discovers who he really is. Their relationship will be critical for him in his decision to kill Dany. Sansa will try to save him from exile. I don't think their ending will be too much of a departure from what we already saw, but the tragedy and bittersweetness between them will be far more acute. Sansa will stand alone as Queen, at least for a time. She will never not be thinking of her "brother" to the north, and he will be left thinking of her.

(about this ask)

She will never not be thinking of her "brother" to the north, and he will be left thinking of her

(I’m not actually sure what these two are meant to be conveying but it’s a pretty good visual of me - hyperventilating and shrieking like a goat 😂)

I'm very open to Jonsa manifesting quite differently than the nicest, most straightforward way: angst pre parentage reveal as they develop feelings, marriage to resolve the Northern succession crisis, and a HEA once the Others and Dany are handled and they foist the hard work of ruling Westeros on their little brother as older siblings are want to do (I'm an older sibling, I'm allowed to make that joke!) I think we will some form of romantic Jonsa, but I see merits of each potential path, from a love they never act on to a HEA in Winterfell together.

If Jon is to be exiled or anything like, I think it has to be by his own choice for it to be a meaningful rather than enraging ending, but this,

"the tragedy and bittersweetness between them will be far more acute"

is kinda where I'm at these days. Martin talks about how much he likes tragedies, he's talked about how much he likes tragic romances, he finds meaning and beauty there, so I've accepted that might be the path he chooses for various reasons. Saying people will be happy with his ending is very different from saying his story has a happy ending. I mean, it will be hopeful and good, but when I think about what he might want tonally, I can see why I might not get the completely pat resolution I prefer.

I may have carelessly used the phrase myself at one point, but I just want to point out that the idea of "Cat's wrongs" is often influenced by D&D's version of the story, not Martin's. Cat was placed in an unusual, insulting, and I would argue, terrifying situation. Ned's actions with Jon were rather unusual, and he was installed at Winterfell before the heir.

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs. He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence. That cut deep. (AGOT, Catelyn II)

As far as Cat knew, this was a sign of Ned’s greater love and loyalty to Jon’s mother and imagine having that thought, seeing what you believe is the evidence of that, and having the constant gnawing fear: what else might that love and loyalty demand? Cuz at this point, Cat doesn't know Ned. IMO, Cat would not be a believable character if she treated a child she saw as a direct threat to her son with total amicability. The scenario that she walked into through no choice of her own, by being handed from one man to another, and Cat's devotion to her kids, both preclude that as a believable response from her. Of course, I agree with you that there is...bitter irony in the daughter so like Cat being the one that Jon will fixate on post rez. There will be something healing, even poetic there.

My other thought after reading your message is that Jon has this whole thing about being called the "blood of Winterfell" and then it appears in Sansa's POV:

He was the blood of Winterfell, a man of the Night's Watch. (ASOS, Jon VI) I am Sansa Stark, Lord Eddard's daughter and Lady Catelyn's, the blood of Winterfell…. (AFFC, Sansa I)

If we see rebuilding Winterfell from snow, less a direct “they’re gonna restore it together” (impossible unless Jon will remain there for years with Sansa), and something less directly, like Jon helping Sansa retake it, I think we might want to expand the idea even further. Jon refused to take Winterfell when it was offered (saving the Weirwoods and protecting Sansa's claim), and Sansa refused to consummate her marriage to Tyrion (protecting Winterfell and the North from the Lannisters), so the fate of House Stark seems to rest with these two in particular. Maybe you’re right that taking back the North is all it is, but the fact that Sansa's body has become the fighting grounds for Winterfell (we have lots of castle euphemisms for sex and that’s how the Lannisters hoped to hold the North, with Sansa’s child) it makes the combo of the rebuilding Winterfell from snow scene & "the blood of Winterfell" expression potentially about more than the physical castle and more about the House Stark lineage. That is how it will truly be secure, and with the phrase presented in both their chapters, that might mean that regardless of exile or HEA, Jon will be a part of not just the retaking of the actual castle, but the euphemistic one as well, and play a part in the continuation of the Stark bloodline.

[sowthetide]

I devoured this story and almost immediately started rereading it, so I thought that I should thank you for my favorite parts.

1) Fleshing out the Iron Islands! It is so, so boring when Theon has to choose between his noble foster home and his horrible natural family. Getting to see the Ironborn not so much for their good points as their reality has been a delight.

2) Quen! I love her. She is very much Theon, just with different opportunities. I find that the fandom tends to underrate Theon's strengths, which is understandable given his crash-and-burn storyline and because the show really makes him the butt of the joke, but I find it easy to understand why Robb is in love with her in your story.

3) On that note, their relationship is really wonderful. They are very convincing best friend; they know each other probably best in the world and they just enjoy each other so much. But the love story isn't too saccharine, as both of them (yes, including Robb) hurt each other sometimes, on purpose and by accident.

I also enjoy how the way they treat each other romantically is so different from their rapport with everyone else. Quen will check out anyone hot and fun, but her love for Robb only turns romantic over the course of the main storyline (for the best, given the age difference; no need to take after Unvle Euron). Robb is saving himself for marriage, but he has probably been marinating in hormones and yearning since he was twelve. And the poor boy has no one to talk to about it, while the love of his life is merrily taking randoms to bed (unless...Jon? We haven't seen much of him in this story, because Quen doesn't care, but did tweenage Jon notice Robb looking at Quen's legs?).

4) The potential in-law dynamics! You develop Quen's relationships with her family so much that it actually startled me to realize that Robb hasn't met any of them. Frankly, it is his turn to suffer. Quen has been living with Catelyn for a long time already. I am extremely eager to see him Asha, but Dagmar even more so. That's basically his wife's dad, but does Robb know that? And once they are all living together, he is short of a father now. Dagmar is so different from Ned, who is really *the* model of a man and a father for Robb, that their interactions have to be interesting. Plus, your story has really made Alannys a real woman, that I really look forward to having her bounce off new people. Like I said, it's Robb's turn to be uncomfortable with his mother-in-law!

In short: fantastic, I love it, thank you for continuing!

You're so incredibly kind ❤️ I'm glad you've enjoyed this story!!

#1: I LOVED getting to flesh out the Iron Islands. I have a similar dislike of "Starks = good, Greyjoys = bad" Theon stories, where Theon would never have been accepted on the Iron Islands or had a good life, which is just ridiculous. I think it's a lot more interesting if Quen had the option for a happy on the isles, either with Alannys at Ten Towers, or as Lady of Hammerhorn with Greydon Goodbrother. That way, it's a hard decision that she has to make, and it ends up being a bizarre combination of "selfish/selfless" ("selfish" for the impact her northern ambitions/loyalties will have on her mother, "selfless" for the personal sacrifice she's making to secure a better future for the ironborn).

I've really tried to be fair to the ironborn, as GRRM's writing of them left a lot to be desired IMO (basically vikings, except with all of their interesting, non-violent cultural aspects stripped away). We get to see some of the northern lords' individual personalities, but the ironborn lords in canon just seem to go along with whatever Balon/Euron decides, which is, quite honestly, lame. So it was a ton of fun to explore a bunch of different ironborn characters and locations.

To me, the ironborn are not uniquely evil/brutal, but chapter 38 will make it clear that they're definitely not nice, either. In the same way, I'm trying to avoid portraying the north as straightforwardly "The Good Guys". I think the Starks as individuals are well-meaning, but war always means devastation and I don't think the smallfolk who have been brutalized give two shits about getting justice for some random northern guy that got beheaded (sorry Ned).

#2: I love her too ❤️ I really tried to keep as many elements of Theon's core personality as possible, whilst also balancing the inherently transformative nature of genderbending. Being born a different sex in a world like Westeros changes so much about that character's experiences that I really had to reflect on who Theon would be within the experience/expectations of manhood.

Fandom also really does underrate Theon's strengths (which is, as you say, veryyy understandable given his complete flop of a storyline in ACOK). But he does have strengths! Like Theon, Quen is (somewhat) clever, ingratiating, funny, bold, inventive, ambitious, etc. I can't remember who described Theon as "hungry to live", but I think that's the perfect description of him/Quen as we see them starting in AGOT.

#3: Anything with Robb & Quen were always some of my favorite scenes to write. It was important to me that they be friends first, and that Robb really had his own arc where he came to understand the power imbalances at play in their relationship. There's such an ease and a comfortability to their relationship that they both desperately need(ed), and that will return in the late-game of this fic.

I also thought it was important to portray Robb as someone who has significant and noticeable flaws. Quen's flaws are pretty apparent (to say the least), but Robb also has a tendency to lash out, to take loyalties/forgiveness for granted, to bottle up his feelings, to disappear into his responsibilities to avoid difficult emotions/circumstances (as we'll see in chapter 39).

For Quen, sexual feelings are easy and of no consequence. Romantic feelings (specifically for Robb) on the other hand... well... Let's just say that Robb has had some ten years to come to terms with his feelings, but it's still very new to Quen. She went down the Romantic -> Sexual -> Oh Fuck I'm In Love With Him pipeline at break-neck speeds.

Unfortunately, I'll have to keep my silence on Jon (as he will have a Part To Play), just know that we'll see more of him later on ;-)

#4: TeaInABowl has me FERAL about the potential of a Greyjoy-Harlaw-Stark family sit-down. I don't wanna spoil things, but there will be some intersection of Quen's northern and ironborn relationships in chapter 40, just not in a particularly fun context (but it's not as ominous as I'm making it sound). There will probably also be a real ironborn-northman sitdown later on, and I'm sooo excited about it.

Alannys hates Robb's ass for real (and I imagine her and Catelyn get along like oil and water too), but I think Asha and Robb would at least be united in Wanting Quen To Be Happy. Asha's not necessarily happy about it herself, but she'll have to make her peace with it. Again, I don't wanna spoil, but I imagine Dagmer as joining Quen's household at Winterfell in the eventual happy ending. That's her dad!!! And, like Asha, I think he would have a lot of guilt/anger for leaving Quen alone at Winterfell in the first place.

Anyway, thank you so much for taking the time to leave such a wonderful ask!!! Chapters 38 and 39 are done (pending beta-ing, yippee!), and I'll be cranking out the rough drafts for chapters 40 and 41 over the next two weeks. All goes well, I should be back March 10th with at least 4 weeks of chapters for y'all!

[rodri11421]

So... I read A Game of Thrones

For quite some time now, I've been quite interested in A Song of Ice and Fire. I bought the first book, A Game of Thrones months ago, but I didn't really begin reading it until three/four weeks ago. Now, I finally finished the book, so I thought it would be nice to write down what I thought abot each of the POV characters in the book!

First of all, here's a tier list I did of all the POVs from the first book:

S tier - Sansa Stark

Sansa wasn't my favourite a first, but her chapters started picking up steam by the end; I couldn't take my eyes off the pages for her last couple of chapters and it was probably one of the most immerse I have felt in a book in a lot of time!

If I had to pick what I liked the most abot her character, I'd say it is her mentality in her last chapter: I have personally struggled with my mental health throgh the years, so seeing her experiencing suicide ideation in an oh-so-familiar way, how this stems from a combination of her guilt from what happened to her father, the general situation she's in and how she was betrayed by people she trusted unquestionably (Cersei and Joffrey)... I am taking a week-long break before beginning A Clash of Kings, but I really cannot wait to read her chapters and see her development.

Also? "I will give you your brother's head", "I hope he will give me yours"? Sansa, dear, I love you so much <3

A tier - Jon

Here I have to say that I'm not beginning this series completely spoiler-free: I know about the red and purple weddings, that Daenerys would hatch her dragons, R+L=J, the ending of the show and such. One of the things I know is that Jon is kind of considered to be the male protagonist of the book series. After reading the first book, I can definitely see why (the only other male character with that kind of presence in this book is Ned, who... Yeah): not only does he have many POV chapters, but his storyline is directly related to the conflict established in the prologue of the book (ICE ZOMBIES :D). Now, did I like his chapters? Definitely.

I would not put him on the same level as Sansa, but I can remember reading the chapter in which he saves Lord Mormont from the Others. I turned page after page, loving the prose and the description of undead's attack. Then, the chapter finally ended and I found myself a little bit frustrated with having to get through other POVs before going back to Jon, so I went to the index to see how many chapters I would have to read before going back to him and, well... I remember audibly groaning, lmao.

To end this section, there is something Lord Mormont in Jon's last chapter that I disagree with: he told Jon that it was honor that tempted him to leave the watch and honor that brought him back.

No.

It was love.

Even if he knew Robb could have had him executed for desertion, even if he knew running away from the watch would ruin his life and destroy any chance of having a future, he loved his family above everything else and wanted to help his dear brother Robb wage war against the Lannisters, as well as to save his father and sisters.

And, on the other side, even if he wanted to leave the watch, he couldn't bring himself to fight his way through his new friends from the watch. Jon definitely did not love them as much as his family, but he cared about them and he knew that they cared enough that they tried to stop him.

In the end, it is all about love.

A tier - Daenerys

Daenerys' chapters were more detached from the main story than the other POVs and I honestly found them just okay for the most part. Her general situation is obviously abhorrent, but there was nothing in her chapters that managed to grip me like Jon's, Arya's or Ned's at the beginning. Honestly, the main reason why she ranks so high is because George RR Martin's prose seemed to suddenly become absolute perfection in her last few chapters.

Don't wake up the dragon

Wake up the dragon

The dragon

The last dragon

And isn't that what she is? The last dragon?

(...I also know that there is a guy that may or may not be prince Aegon in book 5, but I'll get there when I get there, lol).

Also, the parallelism between Sansa and Daenerys' longing for their home, the former for what she has always known and latter for what she has only been told? Me that likey.

A tier - Eddard Stark

There wasn't any specific chapter that was astounding like with any of the POVs above him, but he still ranks here for an overall really strong showing. His best segments are when he's either high on milk of the poppy or imprisoned (his reminiscence of Lyanna's death was haunting and I really love how Martin described the tragic event).

You will be missed, Ned. Your eldest daughter and son/nephew are better, though.

B tier - Arya, Tyrion and prologue (I think that guy is from the prologue???)

Really strong chapters here. Not mch to say in particular about Tyrion and the prologue, but I truly debated with myself about putting Arya in A tier: the chapter when she finds the dragon skulls and spies on who I'm almost 100% sure is Varys was really strong, as well as her last one in which she witnesses Ned's execution. However, after thinking a little bit about it, I realized that, well, I just didn't enjoy her chapters as much as I did the A tier characters. I'd still say she's above Tyrion, though.

C tier - Catelyn Stark

...Look, I understand that judging a character for not making perfect decisions is a flawed method of criticism, but she made so many bad decisions that I just couldn't find myself liking her that much. From almost implicitly trusting a guy she hadn't met for decades (Littlefinger) to arresting an innocent man (Tyrion), who she then allowed her sister to place in deplorable imprisonment (not to talk about that sham of a trial, lol). And all this is without talking about how she treated Jon (it's perfectly understandable that she was in a terrible mental state after what happened to Bran, but telling a 14/15 year-old that he should have been the one to fall off a tower and end up in a coma was not the most endearing thing Catelyn could have done for me as a reader) I also felt that her negociations with Lord Frey ended up benefiting him way more than the North, but that is more comprehensible considering that they really needed to pass the Neck.

I know that many people love Catelyn, so hopefully the next cople of books will improve my opinion of her!

D tier - Bran Stark

Bran wasn't bad, just a little bit boring for me. His chapters were fine, but they were not patricularly interesting or exciting. I know he's supposed to end up as the king of Westeros in the books, so... We'll see if he improves?

Conclusion

Good book. Would recommend :D

[dontbotherwiththepronunciation]

Complaining, whining, actually not deleting later.

Need to redo my "what sort of Theon fan are you?" poll but now the categories are Luwin & Ramsay...

I block people and then forget their names as soon as they annoy me and rarely take it personal.

If I've blocked you, I probably can't even remember your name nor hold anything against you. The only exceptions I can think of are when people leave passive aggressive unproductive stuff on my tags or reblogs or are bigoted/propagate the bigotry.

So more often than not the few occasions where I am confronted with a "questionable take" by a blog I've already blocked, it's alway while scrolling down someone else's blog. And sometimes they become frustrating and they make me want to stick my head in the oven, but most of the time they are just surprising and incomprehensible to me, sometimes they feel almost offensive but I don't think they are done with that in mind so I'm just left with many many questions.

And I wonder where do these ideas come from.

And a big part of me doesn't want to be judgemental and restrictive because I KNOW how horribly obnoxious and rude some people can become (looking at 2016 Theon corner. Most of them are gone and I am wary of the ones that remain), but I also want to understand how it's possible that people who have such a different interpretation of things share the same love for a character that I do.

In all truth I do think that we perpetuate some of his issues in the way we interact with the character.

"Take off the Stark goggles" we yell to others when they claim Ned wouldn't have killed him, but keep wearing them ourselves whenever we pretend Robb would have forgiven him for taking Winterfell, or that the two were as close as they are in fanon, or that Theon should have stayed by his side during war and die with him or that he should have gotten married to Sansa, claims that have some twisted form of canon foundation but were interpreted by most in a way that left me very surprised and makes me feel slightly uncomfortable. "Take off the Stark goggles" we keep saying but then turn the complexities of his cultural duality into family issues by deciding he would have never fitted with the Greyjoys and that he is actually more of a Harlaw, although we know little of them, but hey they are more civilised than the rest of the Ironborn! and have at least four Greyjoy characters whom he strongly resembles, because by doing so it's easier to absolve our wish of wanting him to stay with, form a positive connection and be a Stark. "Take off the Stark goggles" but a 10 year old child should have been gentled because his biological family is abusive in every possible way and is too dysfunctional even for Westerosi standards, although we have no canon for that and are simply deciding to take the most vilifying interpretations as canon.

When the Iron Islands want to be independent it's Brexit, when the North wants to be independent it's decolonisation. (None of those comparisons is fair in my opinion. And I don't think we can actually talk about colonialism in the current ASOIAF plot)

Anyway, "Take off the Stark goggles only I am allowed to wear them!"

That would be Luwin.

Then we have the way interesting analyses and carefully written metas exploring his gender and its development through the story, connected with his lack of agency, the social conditioning and gender roles surrounding the environment he is in, have been deconstructed as to call him a boygirl/girlboy/girl whenever people lightheartedly poke fun at him for being pathetic, annoying or unpleasant, a behaviour that reminds me of Ramsay more than of Wex Pyke (whom I see as the Theon-fan canon self-insert).

This is more often seen in modern aus or more light hearted where society is less restrictive over gender and sexuality, but for some reason he is either more misogynistic and homophobic than the rest of the characters, although there is no real reason for that concept, or he becomes inappropriately promiscuous (I don't like using "promiscuous" as something pejorative, hence the emphasis on inappropriately).

There is this sort of flanderization where his entire outer personality is based on what little we perceived of him during AGOT (all of it through Stark/Stark-Tully/Stark-Snow tainted windows) and only came to see him as a jovial, sexually active, mildly hedonistic and mockish young man, and the inner personality comes a little bit closer to a more humorous retelling of his failures and disappointments during ACOK while still avoiding the more complex reasons. Cultural rootlessness becomes Daddy Issues, Stockholm syndrome becomes emotional dependency, denial of agency becomes immatureness, feelings of inadequateness become dropping out of college/unemployment/becoming a freeloader. In other words, he becomes a buffon whose only real appeal as a person might be sex, and even then "ew, why would you have sex with Theon? You can do so much better [Insert character]"

By doing so he becomes a dehumanised caricature of his true self whose only apparent purpose is to bring a "look at that pathetic idiot" cringe mixed with sexual pleasure that honestly reminds me a little of Ramsay's sadism.

I will admit that being all judgemental makes me feel guilty because I KNOW how horrible people can become but I don't think any of what I wrote is something Theon fans agree with, these are just implicit connotations to the mob-mentality of "I am not going to correct this person because I don't want to be mean" and "hahahaha this made me laugh now I'll keep scrolling" and it gets a little annoying when suddenly the canon-lovers who are still stuck with him in Stannis' tower are then accused of being the ones who actually hate him and want to see him suffer.

Sometimes I think Ramsa¥ would love the way many of us The0n fans treat him. Humiliating and dehumanising him into becoming a completely incapable sex object with no further use to society except being a buffoon at best? Yeah, he’d be into that. We are doing his work.

[witchthewriter]

𝐁𝐞𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐚 𝐬𝐞𝐜𝐫𝐞𝐭 𝐋𝐚𝐧𝐧𝐢𝐬𝐭𝐞𝐫 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐑𝐨𝐛𝐛 𝐒𝐭𝐚𝐫𝐤'𝐬 𝐰𝐢𝐟𝐞 𝐰𝐨𝐮𝐥𝐝 𝐢𝐧𝐜𝐥𝐮𝐝𝐞

⤷ female, ambiguous race, and any size reader. Requests are open, thank you for reading!  

ᴹᵃˢᵗᵉʳˡᶤˢᵗ    

🌿ENTP 🍁Gryffindor 📜Lawful Good   🔮Taurus Sun, Pisces Moon, Leo Rising  

SFW🌿

⭑ You were the hidden daughter of Tywin and a common woman who worked at a ‘whore house.’ 

⭑ Robb Stark found your existence and told Catelyn before he died. 

⭑ Catelyn and the Starks used that information to find you, and as it turns out, you have a twin brother. 

⭑ This information could completely change the course of the royal line, and Catelyn knew that. So, she had both you and your brother taken into her charge. 

⭑ She treated both of you well, very well indeed. But kept most information from you hidden. 

⭑ Your brother was a curious young man, strong and handsome. He looked like a Lannister as well. With golden blonde hair, light eyes, and a strong jaw. 

⭑ You, on the other hand, looked exactly like your mother. With darker features, especially your hair. 

⭑ But one day, searching for Catelyn after waking from a horrible dream, you stumbled into the war tent. And even though you felt safe with the Starks, you weren’t dim. 

⭑ Information was important. You grew up knowing that - it’s how you survived. Your brother was the brawn, you the brains. 

⭑ You found out the information that Catelyn wanted to desperately keep from you

⭑ And instead of acting, you thought. You mulled over the information, the pros and cons. What you could do, what would be best, what outcomes would arise. But one thing was certain: your brother was in danger. 

⭑ In this war, you trusted the Starks. They were the only royals who showed you kindness. But other than that, what the royals did - it meant nothing to the common folk. To the people who worked day and night to survive. To feed their families. To see the next sunrise. 

⭑ But now you were a big player in the game. 

⭑ It was days before you confronted Catelyn. She was surprised, and a tad angered that you knew. 

   “How did you find out?” She asked, her eyebrow raised. 

“Does it matter, I know now. And what will you do with us? What are you planning?” 

⭑ Turns out she was planning a wedding. 

⭑ As she didn’t have her daughters to wed your brother, the closest alliance was you. 

⭑ It was a shock to Robb as well; his mother kept a lot more from him than he realised. 

⭑ Being married to him was very awkward at first. You had interacted quite little; he was off planning battles and rallying men. 

⭑ Catelyn had kept you close, and often found excuses for your brother to be close as well. Even though he itched to fight. 

⭑ Your interactions were brief at first, and then all of a sudden you had all this time together. Traveling, staying in the same tent, in the same chambers. 

⭑ He was polite, a complete gentleman! 

⭑ Always making sure you felt safe and comfortable. 

⭑ If you didn’t want to sleep in the same bed, that was absolutely fine! If you wanted him to leave the room and go somewhere else, he totally would/does

⭑ It’s a slowburn romance, where you develop this bond over time. When he goes off to battle, you’re nervous for him and sigh when you hear he’s fine. 

⭑ If he has any wounds, you want to be there to make sure he’s okay

⭑ He knows your patterns, your behaviours too

⭑ You didn’t have your morning tea? He worries. You didn’t put on your slippers and wash your face? He worRIES. And if you aren’t at dinner - HE WORRIES. 

⭑ You’re a constant on his mind

⭑ And although it’s the middle of war, he tries his best to woo you. 

⭑ His pet names for you are, ‘love,’ ‘my love,’ ‘my heart.’ 

⭑ Your brother was happy about your marriage. He genuinely has a good heart - even though he didn’t understand that this was a political move. 

⭑ He did the brotherly “talk” with Robb; “if you hurt her, I’ll hurt you” 

⭑ And Robb nodded, taking it seriously. “If I hurt her, you have the right to do so to me, friend.” 

⭑ You always feel warmer when you’re around Robb. Whether it’s because he gives you his cloak to wear, his compliments or merely the kind glances he has. 

⭑ Relationship Tropes: 

  ✧ Insane Sexual Tension

  ✧ Initially Distant, but Mutual Yearning 

  ✧ Big Dumb x Small Smart

NSFW🔞minors dni!

⭑ The sex didn’t occur until weeks after your marriage. Robb even said he would pretend if you wanted him to, so no one could attest to the marriage. (If a couple didn’t consummate then their marriage could be annulled.) 

⭑ But he was soft, especially the first time. His touches gentle and kind

⭑ Robb constantly reassures you; “it’s okay, you’re okay” 

⭑ And wants you to be honest if you aren’t feeling up to anything. His fear is pushing you too far. Well, he doesn’t want to push you at all-

⭑ His favourite position is missionary 

⭑ He goes absolutely mental when you nibble on his earlobe and lick his fingers. 

⭑ He would be such a soft dom, taking care of his little sub 

⭑  Robb is a MASTER at aftercare.

⭑ He praises you relentlessly and caresses your face while smiling at you. 

⭑ Robb makes you feel safe. Secure. He feels like ... home. 

⭑ He also always cleans both of you up; you’re always first. He brings the bowl of water over to you. A clean cloth gently takes off anything unwanted on the body. 

[amber-laughs]

I’d love to know ur opinion on Jon’s ships (Jon&Ygritte, Jon&Satin, Jon&Sansa, Jon&Daenerys, Jon&val and so on). I personally like Jonerys but I also find a lot of Jon ships a bit ridiculous lmao

i like Jon and Dany in a very abstract way but it’s hard for me to really get behind them because they haven’t interacted yet if that makes sense. they’re obviously gonna have the largest part to play together in coming books where i think they’ll end up being one of my favorite ships of the series tho

Jon/Satin 10/10 i personally prefer to think of it as Jon being so fucking lonely in his command that he can’t help but take advantage of satin’s position. like when Jon said in adwd he craves company not food hmm i’m lonely and horny and here’s this handsome guy devoted enough to change religions for me and (in amber-laugh’s eyes) is attracted to me so yeah let’s give this a go and then feelings of affection develop from there but it starts out as just a means to an end

Jon/Val my personal favorite of canon possible endings i agree with people who say this is more idealized in Jon’s eyes than it should be but i think that’s part of the fun. she represents something to him that he’ll not only never have but may not even want when it comes down to it. i think that fantasy is part of the fun. if she survives and he does end up going beyond the wall in the end than they’re ending up together in my eyes. she brings out a boyish side of him we haven’t seen in a long time and it comes from a different place than what Ygritte brought out in him that seems to sit easier on his soul. also i could’ve sworn the first time i looked them up on tumblr someone was calling them JonValJon as a Les Mis reference but ive never seen it since so can we start that?

Jon/Ygritte loved it for the storyline it brought and the character development we got to see through it. i’m glad she died so they couldn’t end up together because like i said even tho he loved her she obviously never sat right with his spirit and on a personal level her “fuck me or die” stance never sat right with my spirit either. and she kicked ghost out “find somewhere else for ghost to sleep tonight” NOT ON MY WATCH! ghost’s evil stepmother ik he smiled when she got shot. on a serious note tho he seems to love her far more after she died than he ever did when she was alive and i wonder if that’s something we’ll get in to if he falls in love again in the series

i like Jon/Sansa in a non canon fictional sense. some of the AUs are cute and fun. i don’t see any plot where they actually end up together but i do think there’s a lot of familial angst and self esteem issues that could be worked in to their fanon that’s a lot of fun and their fans have some really talented authors that do it well

and you didn’t ask for this but Jon/Alys Karstark is one of my favorites and i really hope we see her again when he travels back to winterfell. Alys resents the Starks for getting her family killed while Jon resents the Karstarks for leaving Robb to die surrounded by enemies but they’ve found childhood comfort together at the edge of the world. she trusts him in a way she clearly couldn’t trust anyone else in westeros and i think she’ll easily follow him when it’s time for him to lead. and them flirting at her wedding to another man? i mean COME ON!

[iheartbookbran]

I personally dislike the idea of Arya leaving Westeros after the series, even if it’s years down the line, because she already did that going to Braavos and it hasn’t really solved anything for her. I think her abilities would be better used with her helping the smalfolk and protecting them, especially in the Riverlands where she’s spent so much of her arc and has seen the worst of what the nobility can do when abusing their power.

Like, from a narrative standpoint, why have her be witness of the atrocities and injustices that the lower classes have to endure because of the uncaring elites? Why have her be so outraged by it and care so much? Only for her ending up skipping off to another continent in which she’s already been to and didn’t really fix anything of her problems or gave her any peace. Instead of being with her people and in a home she’s constantly yearning for no matter how much she tries to push her desire down.

This idea that exists about Arya, as a character, being above or disconnected from the political side of the series is just such a blatant lie, else the whole Jeyne P/“F!Arya” plot wouldn’t exist. Because yes, the abuse and horror that happens in that plot are 100% about Jeyne, and it should be addressed as such. But also, it’s hard to ignore in all honesty how said plot mostly serves Theon, to add even more stakes to his journey and further his development (*gasps* sexism?? In my GRRM’s writing? It’s more likely than you think). I mean, it’s true that GRRM could have used literally any of the Stark kids (except Robb and Jon obviously) as a railing point for the Stark loyalists to gather around, but for me what makes that storyline stand out to me is precisely that Arya’s name is the one being used. Rickon being a hostage could have worked just as well if we ignore the fact that as a male heir Ramsay would’ve probably killed him in less than a day, but that didn’t happen. The reason D&D failed so spectacularly when they gave Sansa that plot (obviously besides the fact that Sansa is an important character with her own plot and journey that just got completely shoved aside because it wasn’t “interesting” enough for the show’s standards yikes) is that they only gave her the Jeyne-abuse part and not the Arya-northern conspiracy part, so it was only abuse and violence for the sake of it. And as I said, to me it is so significant that it’s Arya’s name being used as a symbol of resistance in the North because parallel to that, on another continent, we have Arya, the little girl who believes she’s not wanted, that she’s not important, who wants to disappear like a ghost and become No One because she doesn’t know how else to deal with her grief, not being aware that a whole kingdom is mobilizing itself out of, yes, love for her family, but also for her, not forgetting her name. And given that Arya’s story is so much about holding on to your identity and yourself, that’s powerful.

GRRM keeps on reminding us how much Arya matters in Westeros. Honestly her precence is everywhere. She’s present in the Riverlands where Brienne keeps on stumbling on places Arya’s been, meeting Gendry who feels so guilty about having lost her he’s frozen in one place waiting for her return, keeps getting closer to the Hound’s whereabouts who’s the last person able to confirm Arya was alive in Westeros. She’s present with the Brotherhood without Banners that are frantically looking for her with Lady Stoneheart as their leader, and of course we can’t forget that Catelyn was resurrected in the first place thanks to Arya, Nymeria and the promise Beric did to Arya. She’s present with Nymeria and her massive pack of wolves that people are taking more and more notice of. She’s present in the North as the Ned’s little girl, a key factor in why the Mountain Clans are willing to follow Stannis at all.

Arya matters so much to Jon, not as a Stark or as a symbol but as his little sister, that he almost loses his mind thinking she’s being hurt by Ramsay. Which again… it’s been said that Jon would care just the same for any of his other siblings, but that’s not even that important tbh? Because if you’re arguing that Jon loves all his siblings then the answer is yes, he obviously does, but the difference is that GRRM already spend so much page space directly telling us how much Jon and Arya love each other, how significant they are in each other’s lives, how much they miss each other, so Jon’s anguish and desperation and the emotional punch that comes with it is far greater than it would be with anybody else. We have Arya, where the only centrality she’s ever had is that Jon Snow would want her no matter what, no matter the things she’s had to do in order survive. And Jon, who wants Arya so badly he commits treason to get her back.

That’s the point, that’s why Arya, her name and the emotional bond that links her to so many people in Westeros, matters. Arya Stark matters and has impact in Westeros, and she should stay in Westeros.

[levithestripper]

More Misc. Romantic Headcanons with the Starks, Lannisters, Jorah Mormont, Bronn + Sandor Clegane

✩ Masterlist! ✩

✩ Warnings: Gender-neutral reader, reader wears a dress, a few instances of mature content (mentions of sex, nothing graphic) ✩

✩ Taglist: @aestosia, @sandorcentral @aestheticallywinchester ✩

✩ If you want to be added to a taglist, fill this out! ✩

✩ Included characters are: Ned Stark, Robb Stark, Bran Stark, Tyrion Lannister, Jaime Lannister, Jorah Mormont, Bonn + Sandor Clegane ✩

✩ A/N: yes, I added the lannisters. why, you may ask? i wanted to. deal with it. same with bronn. he's my baby and I love him. /nm ✩

✩ Part 1 || Part 2 (You're here!) || ✩

Once again, Ned is a lovey-dovey husband. Just, all the time. It never stops. Not like you'd ever want it to stop.

He took you to a Royal Wedding down in Kings Landing one time, while Robert was still king. You couldn't remember who's wedding it actually was, but it didn't matter. Ned bought you one of the fanciest southern dresses you've ever seen. It was made out of the finest soft silks, embroidered with lace and other various floral designs.

During the reception, Ned asked you to dance through a couple songs with him, even if it wasn't his thing normally. He knew you were going to have a fun time doing it, and he got to show you off a bit, so it was a win-win.

Robb is surprisingly possessive. (Not in a toxic way!) He likes making sure the entire North knows that you're his husband/wife/partner. One of his favorite ways of doing so is leaving your neck and chest covered in hickeys and love bites. In public, he always has to be holding your hand or has his hand settled on the small of your back. He could care less if people saw him holding your hand, he loved you so it didn't matter what anyone else thought of him.

He loves to lay in bed face to face with you, either with an arm wrapped around your waist or holding your hands to his chest. Robb will chat quietly with you, either talking about his day and how the war is going or asking about how your day has been. He'll stroke your cheek with the pads of his fingers, tracing designs across your skin as you talk. He'll do it even after you fall asleep, enjoying the peaceful look you made when you were sleeping.

Bran is still trying to get used to someone other than his family actually caring for him out of the kindness of their heart. Not just so he'll be 'in debt' to them as an excuse to exploit his Greensight + Warging powers. You love him just because it's him. Not for what he can give you, or for his titles, just because it's him. And Bran can't get enough of you.

The way Bran shows his affection towards you changes along the course of your relationship. In the beginning, he's still rather shy around you. The most he can do without turning red is hold your hand.

As your relationship develops, so does Bran's confidence. He still isn't great with excessive PDA, but he can easily hold your hand in public and introduce you as his lord/lady/noble. He has no issue with talking about your relationship publicly either, where in the past he'd get super embarrassed whenever anyone would ask. (To be clear, he wasn't embarrassed about you! Just the fact that he had to talk about his romantic feelings/emotions with people he may not be close with!)

But when he's alone with you, Bran is so incredibly affectionate!! He cups your face in his soft hands and kisses you all over your cheeks. Eventually, the kisses will drift down towards your lips. They're light and delicate at first, Bran's lips soft against your own. His kisses grew more confident as he grows more and more sure of himself. Bran even starts to bite at your bottom lip as his kisses started to become more heated.

Affection from Tyrion is different than getting affection/love from any of the Starks. Given that he's almost always in King's Landing, he has to be careful who he talks to and who he decides to trust. Even though Tyrion visits one too many brothels for one's comfort, getting into a serious romantic relationship is hard for him.

When he does manage to work through his emotional trauma (regarding romantic relationships, we all know he has more than that to work through), he loves you and he loves you hard. Tyrion makes sure you have one of the grandest chambers in the entirety of the Red Keep. But on nights where he's free, Tyrion usually has you share his bed with him. It's one of the few times he gets to have you all to himself, where he's able to shower you with all of the love and attention you could ever need.

Tyrion's favorite way to show affection is through acts of service/gift-giving. And what's a better act of service than going down on you? He does it as much and for as long as you like, not stopping until you're satisfied.

Jaime, on the other hand, is much more open with his adoration for you. He loves to twirl you around and pull you close to his chest just to see you blush when he passes you in the halls of the Red Keep. He's still as cocky with you as he is everyone else, just add in a bit more teasing and flirtatious looks from across the throne room.

He loves to show off by buying you extravagant and expensive things that no one else has enough money lying around to just buy on a whim. Each time it gets more and more expensive, purely because he likes seeing your reaction to how much it cost him that time. But it's not like Jaime is buying you frivolous things just to please you, that's not it at all. Most of the things he buys are either a) items he saw you admire beforehand, or b) items that serve a purpose.

Jaime keeps track of when you need certain things, like if you're almost out of reading candles or used up all of the chandelier candles. (Yes, they're different things!! At least they are to Jaime anyways). So just before you use the last one, you'll find a nice new pack of candles sitting on your side table. Sometimes if you're lucky, they'll even be dyed!

Another one of Jorah's favorite things to do with you is read. He'll have a blanket draped over your laps, sometimes a second wrapped around your shoulders if it happens to be breezy. You'll either have your head resting on Jorah's shoulder/upper arm, leaning against him as you read, or he'll be reading aloud if it's a book you both enjoy.

As for why he likes reading with you so much, it's mostly because it makes him feel big and strong and stuff like that. Why? Almost every time you snuggle up together, you fall asleep on him, arms wrapped around his arm like he was a stuffed animal. Jorah just can't get enough of it. You trust him so much you have no problem sleeping/dozing off on him!! It makes him feel so incredibly loved, leaving him feeling all ooey-gooey romantic-y inside and out.

Sometimes it's hard for Bronn to show his love for you in other ways than railing you into the mattress every night. Hey, it's what he does best, isn't it? He just can't get enough of how you look sprawled underneath him, all flushed and moaning for him so sweetly. Loves the face you make when he slips inside nice and slow, your eyebrows pushing up and together while your eyes try not to roll completely back into your head. Bronn's hands almost always move to pin yours above your head, sometimes even tangling your fingers with his own.

Sandor's favorite way to go to bed is with you in his arms, face pressed into his warm, broad chest. He likes having you close to him as he sleeps, reassuring himself that you're still gonna be there when he wakes up, that you're not just some sort of dream. If someone were to ask him what his weakness was, it would be you <3

He cares about you so much it's insane. Sandor could care less about whatever it was you were rambling on about this time. He just sat there with his hand holding up his head, watching you as you ranted and raved about this 'n that. He loved seeing you get all excited like this, it makes him excited for you, even if he's not a fan of whatever it is you're talking about.

Sandor just can't help but fall even deeper in love with you every time you tell someone to 'fuck off ya' goddamn cunt!'

[selkiewife]

Theon Month || Day 5: Flaws

In my opinion, Theon’s worst flaw is the way he views and treats women, children, and smallfolk at the beginning of the series. What makes this flaw truly interesting is that it is directly caused by his insecurity over being a hostage for half his life. Let me explain: 

A lot has been written about how Jon and Theon are foils. However, their individual circumstances are also kind of foils to each other as well. Though they are both outcasts, the nature of their positions are radically different. I’ve written before about my theory that both Theon and Jon developed certain personality traits and suppressed others based on how they feared to be perceived. For example, because of his society’s intense prejudice against bastards, Jon’s fear is being seen as a usurper of his true born siblings: 

Bastard children were born from lust and lies, men said; their nature was wanton and treacherous. Once Jon had meant to prove them wrong, to show his lord father that he could be as good and true a son as Robb.

~ A Storm of Swords, Jon X

In order to combat this negative image and fear of what he might become, he allows his empathy to thrive and he always puts his siblings needs first (his actions when they found the direwolves for example) while suppressing his natural ambition. This is shown by how much he struggles over wanting Winterfell when Stannis offers him it:

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger . . . he could feel it.

~ A Storm of Swords, Jon XII 

Just as Jon allows his natural empathy to thrive and suppresses his ambitions, Theon does nearly the opposite. This is because while Jon is cast in the “treacherous bastard” role in society, Theon is cast in the role of “weak hostage.”

The whole castle, from Lady Stark to the lowliest kitchen scullion, knew he was hostage to his father's good behavior, and treated him accordingly. Even the bastard Jon Snow had been accorded more honor than he had.

~ A Clash of Kings, Theon I

The position of hostage is position of weakness because hostages’ lives can be forfeit at any moment based on other people’s actions. A hostage, therefore, has no real agency of their own. A hostage’s lack of choice and lack of agency is similar to being a woman, a member of the smallfolk or a child in Westerosi society. Even though Theon is a highborn man- he is still stuck in the role of child hostage at the beginning of the series. He is stuck as Jon and Robb go on to take their place in society. Robb becomes King in the North and Jon joins the Night’s Watch, while Theon is still being used as a bargaining ship, similar to a woman being offered in marriage. In fact, the way Arya and Theon are talked about during the War of the Five Kings is very similar:

Arya’s proposed arranged marriage in order allow Robb’s Army to cross the bridge on the Green Fork:

"Also, if your sister Arya is returned to us safely, it is agreed that she will marry Lord Walder's youngest son, Elmar, when the two of them come of age."

Robb looked nonplussed. "Arya won't like that one bit."

~ A Game of Thrones, Catelyn IX

Ned intending to negotiate over Theon for Balon’s fleet:

“I want a careful watch kept over Theon Greyjoy. If there is war, we shall have sore need of his father's fleet.”

~ A Game of Thrones, Eddard IV

You would think that perhaps Theon would use this experience to develop empathy for people who are in a similar position of lacking agency or any control over their lives. Instead he takes the opposite approach and attempts to use his privilege of being a highborn man to show that he is not a woman, not a child, and not beneath anyone else. Because what Theon fears most of all is being seen as weak. And he takes out his fear on the people his society views as weaker in order to feel strong and feel like he is in control such as the way he treats the captain of the Myraham and his daughter (neither of who ever are referred to by their names):

He put an arm around the captain's daughter. "Summon me when we make Lordsport," he told her father. "We'll be below, in my cabin." He led the girl away aft, while her father watched them go in sullen silence. The cabin was the captain's, in truth, but it had been turned over to Theon's use when they sailed from Seagard. The captain's daughter had not been turned over to his use, but she had come to his bed willingly enough all the same. A cup of wine, a few whispers, and there she was. The girl was a shade plump for his taste, with skin as splotchy as oatmeal, but her breasts filled his hands nicely and she had been a maiden the first time he took her. That was surprising at her age, but Theon found it diverting. He did not think the captain approved, and that was amusing as well, watching the man struggle to swallow his outrage while performing his courtesies to the high lord, the rich purse of gold he'd been promised never far from his thoughts.

~ A Clash of Kings, Theon I 

Again, you can see all the posturing at play here. Even though he spent the last ten years as a hostage, he is not weak or afraid. On the contrary, he is a great Lord, making smallfolk and women do his bidding. They are the weak ones, not him. 

This fear of being seen as weak is only exacerbated when he returns to Pyke. And When Balon belittles him, it is markedly gendered: 

"Did Ned Stark dress you like that?" his father interrupted, squinting up from beneath his robe. "Was it his pleasure to garb you in velvets and silks and make you his own sweet daughter?"

~ A Clash of Kings, Theon I

And then later in that conversation when he begins to question whether or not Theon bought his necklace with the iron price or the gold:

You blush red as a maid, Theon. A question was asked. Is it the gold price you paid, or the iron?"

"The gold," Theon admitted.

His father slid his fingers under the necklace and gave it a yank so hard it was like to take Theon's head off, had the chain not snapped first. "My daughter has taken an axe for a lover," Lord Balon said. "I will not have my son bedeck himself like a whore." He dropped the broken chain onto the brazier, where it slid down among the coals. "It is as I feared. The green lands have made you soft, and the Starks have made you theirs."

~ A Clash of Kings, Theon I

Balon calls him a woman and treats him as a child- backhanding him when Theon protested him burning Robb’s letter. And both Asha and his Uncle Aeron dispute his claim that he is the heir.

I am heir to Pyke and the Iron Islands."

"As to that," his uncle said, "we shall see."

The words were a slap in the face. "We shall see? My brothers are both dead. I am my lord father's only living son."

"Your sister lives... And you are a great fool if you believe your lord father will ever hand these holy islands over to a Stark. Now be silent. The ride is long enough without your magpie chatterings."

~ A Clash of Kings, Theon I

He scarcely welcomed me, his own blood, the heir to Pyke and the Iron Islands."

"Are you?" she asked mildly. "It's said that you have uncles, brothers, a sister."

~ A Clash of Kings, Theon II 

So the image of himself he has created in his head to prove he is not weak and defenseless- “I am a man! I’m an heir and thus important! And I have a family that is awaiting my glorious return!”- All of that has been brutally torn apart when he returns home. This makes him want to prove that he is not weak even more- and now, to also prove that the Starks did not make him theirs. So he captures Winterfell, becomes a prince where he was once a prisoner and begins his downward spiral that ends in his awful crimes against Mikken, Palla, Farlen, Kyra, The Miller’s Wife, and the Miller’s boys. 

This is why the transformation he goes through with Jeyne is all the more significant. She is a girl and she is not nobility. She is not important to anyone for her own identity. She is also exactly the type of person that Theon would have dismissed in the past or used for his own gain. But because he cannot bear to see her suffering, he helps her. In showing empathy to her, he saves himself as well. I think this is so moving because in a way, it reflects hope for the world of asoiaf as well. The heroic characters of the series are the ones that are seen to care about the smallfolk, slaves, women, and children. And Theon can be seen as a symbol for the brokenness of the world of asoiaf- both corrupted and victimized by patriarchal feudalism, yet finding salvation, resiliency, and strength through helping someone as “insignificant” as Jeyne Poole. In this way, what originally was Theon’s greatest flaw in A Clash of Kings is now his greatest strength in A Dance with Dragons.

[agentrouka-blog]

Sorry I should have phrased better, the argument is that the attraction is geared more towards women who are like Catelyn. Or is it the role that he wants someone to fulfill, the idea of Mrs Snow as a Cat placeholder to reenact Ned Cat as Lord Lady of Winterfell?

I see what you mean.

(TL,DR: I think the point is to subvert the idea of recreating Ned and Cat. If you want the opinion of someone who likes that theory, you still need to ask someone else.)

Jon, yes, essentially wants to recreate his childhood home but with himself at the center. But he doesn't want to be Ned, specifically, with Cat, specifically. He is not attracted to "women like Catelyn", and Catelyn herself is a source of anxiety and even resentment.

He is into the general idea of a highborn lady with all the attendant skills and qualities.

Because he wants this:

I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister's son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly's boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We'd find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance's son and Craster's would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me.

He wants his home, but without any of the shame and condemnation and insecurity. Lord of Winterfell, children, a family.

Part of that image, a necessary part, is the Lady Wife. And Jon actually respects the role of the noble lady, against popular opinion. But she is not at the center of this fantasy. It's not about copying Ned and Cat, it's about the roles they inhabited there as parents.

Sansa has the mirroring fantasy about her children with Willas.

If I give him sons, he may come to love me. She would name them Eddard and Brandon and Rickon, and raise them all to be as valiant as Ser Loras. And to hate Lannisters, too. In Sansa's dreams, her children looked just like the brothers she had lost. Sometimes there was even a girl who looked like Arya.

They match up exactly.

Extrapolating from the desire to recreate their lost family through their children, you could argue that they want to be Ned and Cat 2.0.

It certainly birthed the popular theory of a political marriage between them that will grow into love eventually.

I don't subscribe to that, though.

Sansa also wants to name a son Eddard after her father, and Jon is dreaming of fostering children (no bastards, no hostages, foster children) so already this fantasy is about moving forward with distinct improvements on the original.

But also, while this fantasy playing out at Winterfell with Stark looks can only happen if you combine Jon and Sansa, the bare bones are always possible for Sansa in any number of political marriages. Not all men in Westeros are violent scum, so she could have this Willas fantasy, realistically, with anyone. This was always always always the path she was supposed to be on. Zero development, outside of changing the location where it plays out.

And it does absolutely nothing to address "No one will ever marry me for love."

Jon, also, literally could have tried to have this, but he rejected it. Accepting it with a different Lady Wife to become Lord of Winterfell after all doesn't work for me personally, because it undercuts the significance of what it meant for him to reject this title. To choose bastardy.

Ned and Cat were a political marriage gone well, and they have their own complex and tragic and sweet story, but it is not at all what I see playing out for Jon and Sansa.

That one - to me - is absolutely going to have to be a love story first. Independent of political benefit, independent of fantasy families, it has to be about who they are as individual people. A romance.

For Sansa, because she is more than a claim and a womb. She needs to be chosen for herself, without any regard for those two things. For her kindness and her wit, her creativity, her intelligence and her ability to love.

For Jon, because he is more than a sword and a man with Stark blood or a good provider and protector or whatever. He needs to be chosen for his own self, his nobility of spirit, his dumb sense of humor, his sense of responsibility, his romanticism, his ability to love.

If GRRM doesn't do that, if they are first pressed together by political gain, then their marriage is about blood and claim first, and the romance is... just a gimmick, an extra. It will hold little weight in the plot and it would not subvert anything. It would be incidental and potentially superfluous.

They need to choose each other first, unlike Ned and Cat. They were lucky to be as compatible as they were, they made a noble choice to make it work, but so do the vast majority of political couples one way or the other. Love becomes an incidental benefit to turning people's bodies into political tools.

Why would GRRM tell that story with Jon and Sansa? He already told it with Ned and Cat.

Jon and Sansa need to fall in love when there is no benefit, no necessity, no hope of that fantasy they share.

Love has to be that important on its own, a worthy prize even with no promise of its fulfillment. If they choose that and remain faithful to it, they will earn its fulfillment narratively, against all odds. And then they can create the family they long for together.

I know many jonsas would not agree with this, but it's my personal take on the couple and what GRRM is driving toward on the theme of romantic love.