#repcomm meta

[ranahan]

Trying the Republic Commando novels again,

spoilers under the cut!

At first I was really skeeved by both the pregnancy storyline and Kal’s character (he’s great as a fictional character, but man, what a piece of work). But now I’m starting to question why these elements were chosen for the story. What questions is the reader invited to ask? Is it just the author’s own biases showing, or are these elements there for a purpose?

I find the choice of Etain’s pregnancy storyline and her reasoning of “giving Darman a future” interesting. The “my line and legacy will continue after me” is a natborn concept. Would clones even attach similar sentiments to reproduction? I think not. If you shared your genetic code with millions of others, would you feel it was tied to your individuality, or would it feel more like common property? Would it be a part of what makes you, you—or would you find the part that’s not genetic more important? Would giving it to a child be an act of tying you together, or would the act of raising them (like you were trained by your training sergeant or brothers) be more salient?

Is this a purposeful “cultural” misunderstanding from the author’s part? I’d find that an interesting angle to explore, but since the pregnancy is hidden, we don’t get Darman’s thoughts on the matter (at least as far as I’ve gotten so far). Or is it simply a misunderstanding the purpose of which is to illustrate the clones’ position and other people making all the decisions concerning them, even outside the military life (Etain’s to get pregnant on purpose; Kal’s to not tell Darman)? Is the whole point of the plot line that there are no civilian lives and freedoms for the clones? Or is it just the author’s own biases showing through?

Similarly, I’m starting to wonder whether the whole point of Kal’s character isn’t that even the clones’ own father figure controls all their choices? It’s repeatedly emphasised how Kal doesn’t like and refuses to share information, makes one-sided decisions all the time, and bullies around everyone from jedi generals to his own sons until he gets what he thinks is best. He’s a control freak who can’t deal with letting other people make their own choices.

I was first disappointed that even the story that was supposed to be told “from the point of view of the disposable grunts,” actually centred on a pregnant Jedi and a rogue natborn sergeant. But now I’m wondering if the point of these characters isn’t to tell something about the clones? Military fiction after all sometimes does include relationship subplots, to explore how serving in the military affects the soldiers’ relationships and lives beyond the military. So are Etain and Kal serving the same function here, only because the soldiers in question are clones without rights, it works out a bit differently?

I don’t know. I hope I’m getting on the right track here, and not giving too generous an interpretation to the books, because I really wanted to like them (military fiction! in SW!) but then to my surprise didn’t. So I’m trying again with a bit more deliberate engagement with the elements that bothered me the first time. 🤔

[ahsokahearteyes]

On some Jedi/Clone relationships:

So I’m going through all my bookmarks ahead of starting True Colors and I ran into this fun one in Hard Contact:

It was just so jarring at this point to know where they end up and see this “shared trauma” description because, well, absolutely.

Sure they had a meet-cute, to a degree,

and I found Darman’s faith in her as a driving force for her success and his interest to be sweet. But the trauma of their critical mission on Qiilura and first kills in action is also the basis of this bond. Not that Darman would probably notice given *gestures vaguely at the state of clone childhood*

I felt a little guilty about reading the book with my ship-brain turned on after reading those lines about the irrevocable bond of shared trauma. But it makes for an interesting dynamic, so much that I realized I have seen it before and been powerless not to ship…

I watched TCW S7 and Rebels in rapid succession (last year maybe?) and was devastated about how long Ahsoka and Rex had been apart and was definitely filling those gaps in time in with ship-brain before that.

I didn’t ever think about it that way until the season finale when they only had each other at the end of all the Order 66 devastation (while I think they held equal power and footing before then between Rex’s experience and bio age vs Ahsoka’s force powers and hierarchical military position over him, she was still baby, so no). Not saying that’s why anyone else chooses to ship but damn, the siege of Mandalore, Order 66, and the potential joint healing in the rebellion era really flipped that switch for me. There is so much love there, that is undeniable in canon, but it feels like the exceptional horror of the shared experience they had with Rex fighting Order 66 and them losing everyone else to it made me more inclined to view a potential for romance too.

So yeah. I’m a little unsettled now that I think about both ships together and rexsoka foundations, but who am I to deny fictional characters some comfort? Trauma-bond ships, am I right?

[mamuzzy]

Hey dear :D can you tell us about your headcanons on Jango training the Alphas ? :D

I finally got here to answer this ask. <3

And ooooh boy do I have??? Only angsty ones, love.

I use RepComm lore as a base of my headcanons, just to make clear in what continuity I'm creating in. And that means: NO INHIBITOR CHIPS.

The whole idea of the Clone Army revolves around one thing ultimately: to completely exterminate the jedi. To create an army that is ready for the decisive moment of taking down the enemies of the Sith without the jedi even noticing what is coming at them.

The trainers of course didn't know that this is the ultimate goal of the army, but they knew they had to train a whole army for a future war that who knows when will come. They had be loyal. And they had to be effective.

Every trainer had different approach:

Kal Skirata used love and insisted on the importance of comradeship which ultimately didn't necesserily made his commandos loyal to the Republic, but to each other.

Walon Vau used harsh discipline and insisted on the importance to make his commandos remember: they are superior than others and they have the most important mission in their life. Nothing awaits them outside because they have everything they need: their duty. Vau's trainees remained loyal even after the regime change.

And then we have the Alpha ARC Troopers trained by Jango Fett.

The Alpha ARCs in their mind are the unaltered version of Jango Fett. 100 copy of Jango Fett with their brain remained untouched (compared to the Nulls who's brain was tampered with). Meaning, the Alpha's undying loyalty to the Republic is not pre-programmed, it is not in their genes. It is conditioned with traditional methods: And that is FEAR.

More under the cut

Jango Fett didn't care about the clones and I will sparta-kick everyone from this hill who tries to fight me. I don't have a single worldbuilding where Jango was a "good daddy" for the Clones. He was a great, loving and caring father to Boba and Boba alone.

For him, the clones are products, but also they are part of his agenda: Even he dies, there will be millions of Jango Fetts who will fulfill his revenge of killing off all the Jedi.

The books often mention that Jango was a sociopath (meaning he is on the spectrum of ASPD), and this template was able to make the clones to be so effective. His brain is just built different and wasn't cluttered with moral based inhibitions. That's why I think that Jango wasn't actually a sadist who enjoyed tormenting his trainees - The Alphas - out of joy and personal amusement. It served the purpose, it was all pragmatic.

There wasn't any more description what was Alpha's training like on Kamino but these little snippets of lores made my brain go brrrrrrr about the theories. If the Alphas - THE ALPHAS!!!! - were scared of Jango it could mean that their training included something that gave a reason to fear him.

We know that he installed his own commands into the Alphas such us destroying the Clone Facility in case of Separatist attack on Kamino which Alpha-17 almost fulfilled. But also, being unquestionably loyal to the Jedi. For me, these commands weren't installed. I truly love the unaltered brain-Alphas.

-- Physical pain --

When you are in the military and under training, the line between educational violence and actual physical abuse is very thin. Insubordination had to be punished. Jango had to make sure that the Alphas remain loyal despite not having the same inhibitions like the rest of the clones, so there must have been exercises where he tested how far the Alphas would go to fullfill their duties, achieve victory, enforce an order, AT ALL COST.

They had to put through physical hell, pushed over their limits, pushed over their thresholds and beyond. If caught crying, if caught showing pain, if caught showing the single muscle of questioning Jango's orders, they had to be punished. They weren't made to compete with each other, but they also couldn't protect each other publicly when Jango punished the Alphas for insubordination. They had to watch. They had to learn from it.

The Alphas found secret ways to communicate with each other. To find comfort in each other in one way or another. Oh they knew the concept of love and caring. They watched Jango and Boba from the distance. The reassuring words. The caring touches of a father. They watched how the Nulls were running to their precious sergeant for comfort when hurt. They were very much aware that this is not something they would get.

-- RECONDITION: THE ULTIMATE DEATH --

The Alphas needed only one case of serious insubordination to learn their places and that was Alpha-Ø2. He was truly an independent mind and free-thinker, a true inspiration to thrive for individualism in the sea of Jango Fetts. Spar refused to comply and refused to sworn loyalty to "a republic" which he didn't knew.

And one day Alpha-Ø2 disappeared. Only to return without his memories. Returning without his fiery temper, without his free-spirit... and without any knowledge of how he used to love his Alpha-brothers dearly.

The brainwashing of the Alphas were so much successful later in time, when Alpha-Ø2 - called now Spar - actually deserted at age 8, two years before Geonosis, most of the Alphas felt disgust just by thinking about him - they had to.

Alphas had to believe that Spar was the utter disgrace to the Republic, otherwise it would mean, that they were actually treated wrong.

They had no idea that Spar's desertion was orchestrated by Mij Gilamar and Jango Fett himself after Spar regained his memories - probably the only mercy Jango showed for a clone.

-- Jango had to find the perfect balance --

The Kaminoans wanted soldiers who are independent thinkers but still loyal. Completely supressing their individualism wasn't an option, learned from Spar's case.

What the Alphas did in their non-existent freetime wasn't his business. But the Alphas had to drop everything that is them, when Jango ordered them to do so.

Jango hated every form of authority and realized that the Alphas inherited this trait for his disdain. So he used this train in them to be more effective as advisors for the Jedi. The Alphas had to make sure the Jedi survive until the critical point after all.

Alpha-17 is the smartest of them and the closest thing they had for Spar, which made him always walking on thin ice.

Tavo and Sull, lovebirds.

Maze had knowledge of wide variety of things due to reading forbidden literature that wasn't their in their curriculum.

Fordo communicated only through sign language due to trauma, and his closest friends learned too so they can speak to each other. He only spoke when Jango ordered him to do so.

They were smart enough to know what is was truly considered disobedience. And that was going against the Republic and Jango. If they comply to these rules, they will be safe.

-- ALPHA vs NULL conflict --

Jango always had to remind the Alphas that they were expected to be better than their precedessors, the Nulls. If they fail to meet with the standards, they won't have "a kal skirata" to save them from recondition.

Alpha-Ø2 sure didn't have.

The Alphas after a while didn't need outside motivation to be obedient and loyal. Because they were meant to be everything the Nulls couldn't be. Seeing the examples with their own eyes, how chaotic the Nulls were, how the Nulls as children were actually unruly and sadistic toward the kaminoan technicians, how they disobeyed everyone who was not Kal Skirata, they finally saw what is expected from them: BE BETTER THAN THEM.

And they finally found their positive reassurance on their own. How to take pride in being the true servants of the Republic. Only the Nulls didn't give a shit about this rivalry. They didn't care about Jango or the Alphas or being better than the Alphas.

Being obedient without question was totally against he Alphas nature but they tried. They tried fucking hard.

Alphas: We are the perfect soldiers of the Republic because we are obedient, well-behaved, and we don't cause trouble to our trainers unlike you.

Nulls: We are perfect soldiers because Kal'buir said so, nyenyenyeeeee!!!

Indeed. That Alpha's didn't have "a kal skirata" in their life to tell them they are enough. That they are perfect. That they do the best. Because their best was never enough.

And they weren't enough.

The Alpha ARCs deemed to be failure in the end and their template genes weren't put in to mass-production. When the deployment to Geonosis began, they realized that they weren't meant to be used in the battle and it almost broke them.

Despite their effort and hard work, the Alphas still deemed a failure. Unpredictable, unruly, and because they didn't have any inhibition in them, the Kaminoan didn't trust that they would fulfill their roles. Alphas had to watch the Nulls leave to Geonosis while they were put into stasis.

They didn't have "a kal skirata" to save them from this fate. They didn't have Jango Fett, he wasn't there at all.

They were all alone.

-- Did Jango's approach work? --

My answer is: no.

Despite the conditioning, the Alphas had wide-variety of reactions to the Republic, to the Jedi, and Order 66.

Some were able to shake down the effects of the conditioning, and realized that this dead man won't come after them from the grave to punish them for disobedience.

Some Alpha deserted and died by the hands of Clone Assassins sent after them during the Clone Wars.

Some Alpha remained loyal to Jango's orders, the Republic and then the Empire, training the new generation of soldiers.

Some Alpha went into hiding and became bounty hunters.

Ultimately, how they interacted with the world around them as individual and how the environment treated them decided their own fate.

[trudemaethien]

i was looking for that meta about the acronym of the repcomm SOB (Special Operations Battalion) unit that i could have sworn @fox-trot wrote and coming up with a whole lot of great posts but not the one i was trying to find. anyone know what im talking about?

[arliganzey]

Some GAR HQ Zey thoughts in no particular order:

In addition to the blue lapis desk and bantha leather chairs, Zey’s office also has a small sofa and table up against the wall. It’s meant to be for less formal, private meetings but Zey doesn’t have many of those (if at all). This is referred to by Maze and Zey as the “nap couch” because it’s where they take 20 minute power naps. Those two can probably count on one hand the number of times they’ve seen their actual beds since the start of the war.

When Maze says Zey “makes caf” it should probably be clear that the tapcaf machine actually makes the caf--it's one of those 'put cup down and push button' machines. But Zey has taken it upon himself to make sure the tapcaf machine is up and running, like actually cleaning the machine when the 'clean' light goes on instead of ignoring it and hoping for the best like everyone else does.

It’s also Zey who gets a mini conservator put in and stocked with milk/cream/etc and actual mugs in addition to the to go cups. He gets good caf instead of GAR issue, but he keeps it on the down low because he feels bad he can’t distribute the good caf more widely in the field. GAR HQ just has “the mysteriously good caf.”

Zey’s love language is serving caf. It's always been his thing, making sure there's caf out for visitors, and now that there's a war on, he still makes a point of it.

[verpineshatterrifle]

sorry this is like, weeks after you asked, the holidays kicked my ass and then i got sick

so what repcomm does to address order 66 is establish throughout all four books leading up to it that the clones will follow orders, not because they don't have free will, not because they're mind controlled, but because following orders in a war is what makes you a soldier, it very often saves your life

they dont do any of the shit in tcw/tbb where roughly every other episode some character disobeys a direct lawful order likely meant to protect them, and the fact that they disobeyed is what saves the day (i am looking specifically at omega)

this reblog has a whole bunch of book quotes about how following orders is like. not optional. and actually good

repcomm also does some interesting stuff with the relationship of jedi and clones- the book series get a lot of hate for 'jedi bashing' but i really don't think that's fair. many of the primary characters are critical of the jedi order, but there isn't a single jedi character in the series that's actually treated as a full antagonist

basically, the series raises some very interesting questions about why exactly jedi, who are not trained as military officers, are in charge of an army suddenly. geonosis casualties are extremely high (1/3 of the entire army, 1/2 of the commando squads) specifically because the jedi had no idea what the hell they were doing with military tactics. the main character jedi spend the series trying their best to learn, acknowledging when their clone officers should be the ones calling the shots, being useful where they can. the series does a lot with subverting the command structure in interesting ways, how far you can really push that, when you can't. bardan jusik (a general) acts like an officer as little as he can possibly get away with while kal skirata (a sergeant) regularly pushes generals around. etain tur mukan (general) spends a lot of the series desperately trying to grow into that role. arligan zey (general, jedi master) is treated as a bit of a problem specifically because as head of the spec ops brigade he can't take that back seat role even if he wants to

so you have the clones who are to some extent aware that while the jedi have magic powers, their military qualifications are... somewhat lacking, and now we all just have to kind of deal with that as best we can

long story short, order 66 in repcomm is one of 150 contingency orders that every clone officer has memorized. it's not a sleeper agent activation phrase. there's stuff in there about killing/arresting the chancellor too, if necessary. in fact, here's all the known orders:

so in the books, when order 66 comes through, it's a lawful order directly from the supreme chancellor, communicating that the jedi are now acting against the republic, and must be stopped using lethal force. because what else are you going to do with extremely powerful magic space wizards with mind powers?? 'capture alive' isn't realistic if the jedi have turned on the republic

and then quite a few of the clones actually do disobey the order. i don't want to spoil anything directly in case you read the series, but omega squad is completely doing their own thing during order 66, a certain arc captain makes a certain choice of his own, delta squad is on kashyyyk, bardan is losing his mind trying to locate etain, it's absolute havoc

(the books also show you the battle of coruscant on the ground and just. damn. damn. it hits hard. really hard.)

idk it just makes me sad- that the version where men whose emotional journeys, relationships with their officers, militaristic mindset, intense battle fatigue, the hopes and dreams they manage to have and the doubts and questions they barely dare to voice even to each other... we see all that, and then they have to make a choice- obey a lawful order given by the supreme commander to perfect soldiers, or do the impossibly difficult, unthinkable thing, and as the man that the republic doesn't believe you are, disobey that order because some small doubtful part of you hopes that it's wrong?

also the extreme irony that the only real hope the jedi had of surviving order 66 was to either 1- refuse to play the game (bardan jusik took this option and was only capable of doing so because he was broken down to the point where he couldn't remain a general AND he had somewhere else to go and something useful to do, this is simply not possible for most jedi) or 2- consistently, for three years, despite what the republic and the war needs, despite what the men themselves want and are comfortable with, despite your own exhaustion and moral crisis, treat the clone soldiers whose lives are under your command, with nothing less than full respect and dignity and hope that when they're told you're a traitor and they need to kill you that they'll think twice

it makes me SO SAD that this was all trashed for mind control trope simply because a kid's show can't fit that much nuance and depth in it

here is my biggest complaint about the animated star wars shows (the clone wars and the bad batch, no comment on rebels)

before i even get started, i know these are kids shows told in 20 minute episodes, and that the reason for my beef is because the 2008 clone wars show was focusing primarily on the jedi, and didnt have the time/wasnt interested in treating the GAR as an actual military and needed to appeal to a young audience. i get that. i do. now with that out of the way im going to bitch and moan unapologetically about how X Thing Ruined Star Wars, because that's the fandom's national sport, ok?

the shows treat the GAR like a high school. everyone is somewhat childish (to appeal to the young audience). disobeying orders is something cool heroes do. (ANAKIN.) improvisation is treated as a fun and cool tactic that generally works out after a whacky adventure, not something you do as a last resort when your actual plan fails. main character's competency is primarily shown through their enemies (and sometimes their minor character allies) suddenly becoming inexplicably stupid.

'good soldiers follow orders' becomes a terrifying signal that a character has lost their agency. 'when have we ever followed orders?' becomes a rallying cry and heroic last words.

when youve written a military THAT badly, how are you supposed to force your beloved characters to follow Order 66? well, you're kind of stuck with mind control.

it didnt have to be this way 😭😭

[countessofbiscuit]

Hi! Loved your write up on Republic Intel and GAR special forces.

My question is where do Shadow Clone Troopers fit into your headcanon TOE? The intial backstory for the shadow troopers have them as the brainchild of Armand Isard, future director of Imperial Intelligence, to supplement the dwindling number of ARC'S and Republic Commandos and give Republic Intel its own clones (Though Covert Ops Clones would later be mentioned as belonging to Intel)

But later sources say the Shadow Clones are part of the Special Operations Brigade with no mention of their ties to Republic Intel. For the purposes of my own fic, I had the Shadow Clones transfered to being under SOB as a bueractuc win Palps threw Zeys way ( Palps: I have to play nice with the Jedi till it's time to kill them all Isard, just deal with it )

Anyway curious for your thoughts and keep up the good work!

Hey there! Chuffed to hear someone digested that meta in full :D

The short answer is, shadow troopers don’t fit anywhere in my scheme because I never encountered them organically in media outside Wookieepedia, and they didn’t have enough in-universe “critical mass” for me to give them much consideration.

If I had to give Isard/REPINT a clone Ground Branch, however, I’d just scrub the shadow troopers concept and give them the covert troopers, whom I have spent some time thinking about because yeah, they make a significant appearance in RepComm. As you headcanon, leveraging control of über-elite units is definitely something Palpatine would and could do, given all the institutional power he wields (not just ... weird political sithly influence).

Clone assassins Moz and Olun were trained by Prudii; no Null would have trained crack killers for REPINT and they didn’t do anything unwillingly. For this reason, I’d been imagining them as a hyper-secretive command within CLONINT à la JSOC that got handed to REPINT — the inverse of what you’ve headcanoned, essentially. JFK excised the paramilitary capabilities of the CIA and handed them to the DOD in 1961, which was surprising at the time because it gave the US military power to conduct covert action during peacetime. At the height of the Clone Wars, Palpatine would not have found it difficult to answer anyone who dared ask — or who even knew — why the civilian foreign intel department (the more established organization, with a 100% natborn, non-Jedi leadership) might benefit from being able to take direct, clone-trained, clandestine action should, say, elements of the clone army become compromised. That could obviously get very messy … which is exactly what plays in out in True Colors.

I guess it comes down to what media one wants to privilege in building out their SW bureaucracy, what one’s fic needs, and where you want to place accountability for the internal open season on clone deserters (because it was a lot higher up than Zey, whether or not he was privy to it). At the end of the day, I believe it was Palpatine, behind movable walls of plausible deniability.

Thanks for the ask; I enjoyed chewing over this stuff again and will definitely be thinking about it anew as I finish a current re-read of RepComm.

[kungfuslipper]

Something I’ll never shut up about in my writing is that Sev has a lot of feelings, but he’s a professional at hiding them. He learned early on not to show anything that could be used against him. Doing that gave him a different problem, though, which is comparatively easier to handle: being relentlessly teased about being a psychopath.

“Ah.” Jusik sighed.

“Any sign of what killed him, Scorch?”

“Let’s ask Sev. He’s a dead-body-ologist.”

Sev, feeling embarrassed by his reaction, examined the bones. The left arm came off in his hand. “Yep, he’s dead all right.”

Scorch sucked his teeth noisily. It was extra-amplified in the scuba trooper helmets. “Sure you don’t want a second opinion, Doc?”

“Nah, I’m prepared to go out on a limb.”

Why is Sev more sensitive to criticism and abuse than his brothers? Because he does have ‘weaknesses’ they don’t have.

He also isn’t aware that he puts up a frightening front, and gets confused and frustrated when people find him intimidating.

(Now I’m going to swerve into Fi/Sev ok?)

Fi doesn’t, though, so Sev is all whatisthis I have to actually contend with genuine interaction? Fi can see through me ohnoohno but wait he actually likes me and I like him back I mean I can’t stand him he’s so mushy and open and dangerous I can’t keep my walls up around him * pushes Fi away *.

But like it or not, the effect Fi has on him is like someone reaching in and giving his heart a little massage. There’s no way, ultimately, for him to say no to that. So if I give him the chance to be at Fi’s bedside after Gaftikar you better believe he will be affected by it.

Quotes are from Republic Commando: True Colors, ch 13, kindle edition, Karen Traviss, 2007

[tiend]

Comprehensive post about 'canon' versus 'EU/Legends' in the various versions of the Clone Wars, including Karen Traviss's take on Mandalorians, Dave Filoni hate, Lucasfilm versus Lucas, and this entirely too accurate quote from the author:[...as someone who has enjoyed experienced varying degrees of participation in the Star Wars fandom in general..]

[tiend]

I didn't want to hijack/derail countessofbiscuit's post about opinions regarding Codywan, but another thing for me--and this is actually much less about Codywan than it is about certain writing choices in clone/Jedi ships--is that I like seeing clones as the heroes of their own story, as actors who effect change for themselves without needing to appeal to a more powerful person as though they're helpless to do something themselves. I understand that there's some amount of fulfilling the wish for a more ideal world/a monumental righting of wrongs in writing something where a Jedi is made to understand 'slavery = bad' through their relationship with one of their soldiers, then becoming an unrelenting moral crusader on behalf of all clones, but a lot about that dynamic really does not do it for me. (I could probably articulate why but it might take me a few days to separate out all the threads of that tapestry.)

Come to think of it, a reason I like Republic Commando so much is that it very much does not do that. The decisions our characters make don't have a sweeping impact that upends the entire system--they don't have the power to do that individually--but they do make their own, meaningful choices with what they do have the power to do, even if it's just on the level of "throw my dress blues into a trash compactor and walk off base never to be seen by the wider world again."

[mamuzzy]

Reading Republic Commando while having TCW and TBB in mind is insane. These two are separate universe! TCW is literally rewrites Republic Commando. Imperial Commando was literally cancelled because of TCW.

The clones initially didn't have brain chips. They obeyed O66 because they were given an order and that was it.

Republic Commando, while giving in-depth personalities to the clones, had to find an explanation why the clones obeyed O66 on their own account.

Bly still had to obey. Bacara still had to obey. Neyo still had to obey. Cody still had to obey Gree still had to be decapitated. Plo Koon still had be shot down and so on. Because that was in the movie. And I think Republic Commando follows the narrative that the Jedi and the Clones weren't close at all.

Because only those Jedi survived the O66 who formed meaningful bonds, like the heroes of the story. Bardan. Etain. Zey. Yes, i know, they are KT-s precious little OCs. BUT SHE COULDN'T SPARE CANON MOVIE CHARACTERS.

The only explanation for our beloved clone commanders mercilessly killing the jedi on their own account, if they truly believe they are traitors. Because they don't have any reason not to believe that. You won't have moral dilemmas about shooting a friend if you weren't friends to begin with.

[leias-left-hair-bun-again]

I saw somewhere that you headcanon Ordo as being Autistic, and like… I headcanon that same thing sgahsgsg. I was curious, however, as to what specific things he does that made you think that? (Also, it autocorrected Ordo to Oreo and just agahsdn I’m done lol)

:DDD oh boy oh boy this is the exact kind of ask that makes my brain go brrrrr it is just so happifying when people ask you questions instead of you just dumping a bunch of words in their lap unasked for and hoping they wanted to hear them in the first place XD ahem anyways hold up i've gotta breathe before i answer this i'm so excited

okay so i'm actually. going to tag @trashcanmando bc she actually has Intelligent Things to say about this XD and also she was the person who brought up the idea and made me realize that that's what i'd been thinking the whole time. but for me - like i alluded to, idk if i ever explicitly think 'oh ordo is autistic' when i'm reading the books, but like. there's just this underlying feeling of connection i have with him in a way that i don't have with the other characters. he's so blunt and practical and has such a hard time with - i mean there's two things that happen when i was first introduced to him that i vibed with so hard the first is

ordo just walloping maze in the face twice in a row and walking out of the building like it's no big deal and bardan have to sit there next to him and go 'um ordo that was...kind of a lot' and ordo just doesn't get it (also when maze comes back later and wallops ordo and ordo is just completely poker-faced and 'yeah that's fair' about it - anyways) and the second is

ordo getting flirted with and having exactly 0 clue that that's what's happening but being uncomfortably aware that something weird is going on with the waitress - and the way kal reacted by making light of the situation and easing ordo away from it teasingly - that is what my mum does with me in so. many. social situation where i don't know what's going on and start panicking

oh and bonus was him bodyslamming fi with, again, 0 facial expression beforehand XD idk, just put him next to atin, who has a similar temperament, and there's just - something a little different about ordo that goes beyond 'stoic and quiet', to my mind at least

and i mean those are just first impressions, but there are so many other little things - him proposing to besany and then immediately going 'okay let's get married right now' with 0 facial expressions or indication that he cares at all. and then there's details like how his brothers don't care as much about having their helmets off around strangers, but ordo doesn't like it at all. and just the way he's described as not smiling or understanding that he needs to smile, or that he needs to, you know, talk. and the way he has to be helped in new social situations and also doesn't seem to do a very good job with figuring out how to apply the rules across different situations - and he also doesn't seem to notice physical appearances the way other people do, if i'm honest; not just in the way he sees besany

he's just....he's different; he thrives in situations where he knows what is expected of him and feels like he understands what the parameters are, but take him out of his comfort zone and he has so much more difficulty adapting to the changes and new rules than his brothers do...also he often seems pretty uncomfortable with emotions but not in sev’s ‘i am a hard tough soldier and you’d better remember it’ way, more in a ‘i have no idea what to do here’ way (see: everything surrounding the Drama with etain and darman and also every time etain tries to get him to actually talk about his feelings or his childhood)

basically i relate very hard to him in very specific ways, so i just. vibe XD i would love to hear your thoughts, anon!!!!

[izzyovercoffee]

Thinking about it more though... what would that have actually looked like? For the Nulls to meet a ghost of Kal’s sordid past, a memory he worked hard to outrun only for her to haunt his present, alive and well? Fulfilled in a life worth living without him beside her? How would the Nulls have reacted to meeting Ilippi Skirata Jiro?

In an ideal world, in an actual scene or situation where they would’ve encountered each other, I wonder if Ilippi would have seen the wear under Ordo’s eyes---from exhaustion, from stress, from managing too much on too little---and seen a reflection of her younger self. Would the hurt and the isolation of her younger years speak to the same struggles that Ordo feels in his constant and endless management of Kal’s movements in and around his brothers? Could she have reached him in a way Kal couldn’t, and ease his anxiety, or soothe the weeping wound that whispered he would never be good enough, that somehow Kal will soon one day see it like Ordo knows it, buried under the formless anger and defiance of a child carted to the flames? 

Ilippi could not know where that insecurity stems from, but she would understand why it continues to live.

I wonder if Ilippi could have seen the very same charm in Mereel that was what drew her to Kal in the first place, and yet also see the sharpened edge hidden beneath it. To see the invisible rope pulled taut around his throat as time threatened to run out before he could finish out the path Kal put him on, if he could save his brothers before the war took him? Would she see right through the easy jokes and reflexive deflection and cut into the core of it all, and in doing so, untangle the noose of his desperation?

If she could outlive Kal’s expectations, and thrive beyond them, then so wouldn’t Mereel?

Would that Ilippi had lived and visited them during the war, what would she have shared with Prudii? Would she have bothered, would she have tried to correct him on that anger and that resentment he carried for Kal? How would that conversation have gone, when she instead reminded him he doesn’t need that added burden? He carries too much on his shoulders, as it is, and he’s long since passed his breaking point. 

Would she have told him of the bitter loneliness and the isolation she suffered as she struggled to raise her children alone---removed from all familial support and friendships broken by distance? Would she have related to him that bitter resentment and that biting loneliness that she undoubtedly sees in him---not the favorite son, not the oldest, and forbidden from ever making meaningful connections because his “job” demands it of him? How terrible it must be, that he can never stop moving, that he visits a different planet, a different system, a different sector, every week---and because of a demand of constant movement he never truly consented to, he’s condemned to a solitude he chafes under?

If Ilippi were to meet Jaing, would she flinch from his sharp-toothed grin and the violence he carries in his shoulders? Would she move away from the anger that fuels him, turn away from his attempt at charm---a facsimile, an echo of what his brother perfectly captures and what he can’t seem to emulate---or would she find that, in and of itself, charming? It is true that she once saw Kal’s dark sides and sharp edges attractive, alluring, charming---even if it lead her to emotional ruin and a heartbreak she never fully healed from. 

Older, and wiser now, she would see the hurt for what it was. She would see the knife behind his eyes and guide him to understanding that he doesn’t have to carry it in silence, that in silence that very blade cuts him deepest of all, and that she sees him for who he is as a whole, not for the parts that encompass the pain he’s done or that’s been done to him.

I like to imagine that Ilippi is charming, and that when she meets A’den---A’den who is deeply sociable, if bitingly sarcastic, and holds a humor as dry as sand---she would share with him the memories of Kal when he was young, and angry, and unfairly charming on the days when he was good? 

But A’den hates to be lied to, and I doubt Ilippi would have reason to lie, whether outright or by omission. Not all days were good, not all memories kind, and I wonder---would she have also shared with A’den the bad days, the days she could not bear, the days that mounted until they outnumbered the good and she realized to protect her children they would have to leave?

Worse, though---would A’den find someone in her that could see what he saw in Kal, that he dared not bring up nor say out loud, even when he worked to circumvent Kal at every turn? Would he realize, through brief connections and conversations, that no matter who Kal tied the metaphorical knot with, the brutal storm he carried unchanging within him would invariably hurt the people he’s closest to? Would he realize that no matter how hard he tried, finding someone to “take care of” Kal would inevitably lead to heartbreak?

And now, speaking of heartbreak, I wonder if through that thread, would Ilippi find a connection with Kom’rk? She chafed under isolation forced upon her when she agreed to marry Kal---but Kom’rk chose isolation, chooses it even still. Kom’rk has to be forced to return home, begged by his brothers and convinced to trade for something worthwhile, for something worth more than the cost of returning to the Core---and, by extension, Kal’s side. Is it a point of humor, even, or a sore point of pain that, when pressed, triggers laughter (or else it triggers tears), and in that connection understands why Kom’rk always chooses to stay far, far away?

Something relatable, in the pragmatism of it all---to avoid conflict entirely, too tired, or spent, or burned out, to face it with someone who would always remain a stone, for better or worse. 

If only Ilippi Jiro had lived, would the Nulls have been given an opportunity to peer into a past through the lens of another. They’ve always been so terribly curious, proclaimed deviant for their defiance and condemned to die early, would they have been able to resist that very same temptation, that very same curiosity, to learn something new?

I honestly don’t think so. 

[booklindworm]

You can actually gather a lot more from the lyrics than you'd think, if you really want to - I plan on writing more on that later.

The grammar is a lot less than you make it seem. E.g. Traviss actually specifically tells us that there is no word order. It's so meager that most people automatically default to English - but I guess we can agree on a mixed grammar instead of only Basic grammar.

I must say I am a little upset about the list of misconceptions because I don't really see the differences between what you wrote and what I wrote - so where's the misconception?

Mandoa.org contains NO fanon words in the dictionary (forum is another story). I said forum, didn't I?

The Norton Cant is not Mando'a at all. It may be a Mandalorian language, [...] Mandalorian languages were retrospectively dubbed Mando'a. So it is a part of Mando'a. Isn't it?

SWOTOR uses KT Mando'a and uses it well. I didn't play it so I wrote "Soldiers' Pidgin, probably" but please note that I specifically stated that in my opinion the whole series has to have been translated from earlier forms of any language used because it takes place three millennia prior to any films.

KOTOR predates the RepComm installments and contains no Mandalorian language. The game itself contains a weird version (that poor little girl) and, just like with Notron Cant, just because it was published before the naming of Mandalorian languages as Mando'a doesn't mean they aren't Mandalorian languages - or Mando'a. Also there are novels and comics about KotOR that contain KT Mando'a, same as SWtOR.

TCW uses KT Mando'a extremely poorly, pulling a fan sentences from a Mando'a forum and calling it Concordian. Now I didn't mention this, but how does that make it a misconception?

Rebels at least puts in an effort to use KT Mando'a, but it kinda hurts to listen to. [...] The Mandalorian show kinda uses Mando'a words here and there and tBoBF has at least one song in Mando'a. Isn't that what I said?

Trying to glean linguistic truths from sung words is a fool's errand. Take any modern song and try to analyse a language's pronunciation and phonetic inventory from it. It's not a good time. No it wasn't a good time. But it did give me a lot more that KT's attempt and I am quite proud of my results, again, I will publish them later. However, how is that a meta-misconception?

Re the Polynesian language group - inter-communication between groups descending from the same language ancestor over a couple thousand years is definitely cool and can be obvious, and I am a bit of a fan of reconstructive or historical linguistics.

It doesn't change the fact that your example shows how over millennia one language (that isn't used anymore) became a group of languages. A speaker of PPn would probably not be easily understood in this here modern world...

I'm not good with communication and may have misunderstood your post. I hope my answer (and my questions) do not come across as unfriendly.

I think we're mostly on the same page, really.

Mando'a Dialects in- and out-of-universe

Outgame (irl) there are several different versions of Mandoʻa: The Shadows of the Empire Soundtrack version (Notron Cant), the Republic Commando Soundtrack version (Jesse Harlin's text), the Old Republic version (as seen in SWtOR or KotOR), the Republic Commando Novels version (Karen Traviss' version), the Mandoa.org version (their forum members made up a lot of extra vocabulary), several different tumblr versions, and the Disney version (as in the TV-series Star Wars Rebels). They all have distinctive similarities (the Notron Cant is an exception), but unfortunately, they also all somewhat differ. Since Karen Traviss published her Mandoʻa version online, complete with a dictionary, the Mandoa.org version and most tumblr versions are based on her version. Her version in turn is vaguely based on Jesse Harlin's version-the first Mandoʻa on file, so to say. I myself see them as different dialects or development stages of the same language.

See, Karen Traviss' Mandoʻa and also most of Mandoa.org's Mandoʻa uses Basic (i.e. English) grammar with a Mandalorian vocabulary, so I call that version Soldiers' Pidgin. It's obviously (ingame) a creole language that came into existence after the Mandalorian diaspora. It is this Soldiers' Pidgin that Kal Skirata taught his children (the Nulls) and possibly also the language that the Alphas taught other, younger clones (e.g. the CC class or the ARC-troopers) as a "secret" language to hide from the Kaminoans. If it was used by the clones in such a way, the GAR should have its own dialect. The different internet versions of Mandoʻa all seem to be based on Karen Traviss' dictionary, so I see them as different dialects of the Soldiers' Pidgin. The same reasoning can be applied to Disney's Mandoʻa.

The language of Vode An, Graʻtua Cuun, Darasuum Kote, etc. on the other hand uses a grammar that differs from Basic. It is an older form of Mandoʻa, probably the Mandoʻa spoken on Mandaʻyaim before the Excision - seven-hundred years ago. It's a lot more interesting (for me, at least). I propose calling it Classic Mandoʻa. It has its own grammar; it has a similar vocabulary as Soldiers' Pidgin, but with distinct and sometimes varying pronunciations (sometimes depending on the rhyme or rhythm of the song); it has a lot of epitaphs and kennings and references and can have very flowery phrasing. It's used, in or around the time of Palpatine's Empire, predominantly in older songs and poems. An irl-equivalent could be Shakespearean English.

We can probably view the (archaic) tOR version as vaguely translated into modern Mandoʻa (Soldiers' Pidgin, probably) since there is exactly no way that the language changes so little in over 3000 years. I also propose that the Basic back then has very few similarities to the Basic that's spoken during the Skywalker Wars.

Missing is a sort of current, modern version of Classic Mandoʻa. I think that is (sadly) very realistic. A society that is so broken up by something like orbital bombardment would likely, over the centuries, develop several different creole versions and try to keep their original language as unchanged as possible, leading to exactly the combination described above.

Here are some other people's thoughts:

[countessofbiscuit]

REPINT, CLONINT, RSOD ... *sobs in acronym*

“If it was Zey,” Vau said carefully, “the chakaar should have told us they were operating on the same turf as Omega simply for everyone’s safety.” “Covert ops get tasked by the regular GAR as well as SO, Walon.” .... “Then again maybe it was Republic Intelligence.” [Vau] (True Colors, Chap 8)

When originally hammering together headcanons for how the GAR is organized and where it sits within the wider state system of the Republic, I followed up kaasknot’s GAR org meta with a post about military intelligence and SOF. My conception of the relationship between SOF, Republic Intelligence (REPINT), and Clone Intelligence (CLONINT) has evolved since then. Instead of subordinating CLONINT to REPINT (as I’d initially done), I have divorced the two again — reinforced by a few pointed mentions of REPINT in the drama surrounding Spar and Sull in True Colors — and I have further separated the special forces brigade out from underneath CLONINT, massaging Karen Traviss’s image of it as a Republic answer to US SOCOM. I am not an inventive character; where possible, I try to respect canonical structures and systems, while wearing realist-tinted glasses. (Forgive me for being American and thus largely drawing on American examples.) Updated meta as follows:

Republic Intelligence = the Republic CIA; the civilian foreign intelligence branch of the Republic, which reports to Republic Strategic Command. In Legends, REPINT is solidly a military intelligence department (although Repcomm doesn’t really bear this out), but I prefer its new canon description. Palpatine’s close pal Armand Isard had the unique privilege of being both the Director of Republic Intelligence and Director of the Senate Bureau of Intelligence (Republic FBI — ‘domestic’ intelligence and security) throughout the Clone Wars, which is shady enough. REPINT comes in for its fair share of skepticism by the protags in Repcomm — which makes sense, since it reads like the CIA’s wet dream, in a world where they got to retain and beef up their own paramilitary forces (rather than simply direct and advise DoD assets): Sull and Vau wonder if the clone assassins sent to kill Spar weren’t sent by REPINT; Prudii suggests REPINT are cooking Sep strength numbers for Palpatine’s purposes; Valaqil warns Besany that REPINT are observing her (adding that these people aren’t "Skirata’s men") — which I believe we are supposed to read as particularly unnerving because the CIA is not statutorily permitted to spy on its own citizens (a directive it has overstepped on many occasions, and indeed, been empowered to do by things like the Patriot Act). Is REPINT overstepping here? Or have they never been bound by law from domestic surveillance? Pick your poison. Regardless, there's a sense that REPINT are the Chancellor's hidden hand, while CLONINT might favor clone units as customers.

One could assume that responsibility for covert action (in the sense of tasking, not culpability, which must always remain somewhat indeterminate), was historically assigned to REPINT and perhaps the ex-Judicials who preferred ~aggressively direct negotiation~, but they are forced to share the pie with the Special Operations Brigade when conflict breaks out.

Clone Intelligence = the Republic DIA; the military intelligence branch of the Republic DoD, overseen by the Director of Special Operations; the nebulous body to which the Nulls theoretically belong (the “Clone Intelligence” namedrop in RotS refers to Jaing and Kom’rk positively identifying Grievous on Utapau). Typically, MILINT agencies answer to the Minister/Secretary of Defense; since the Chancellor (apparently) occupies this revived post at the time of TCW, the Director of CLONINT (see below) reports to him — indeed, it works best for a proto-fascist state when there are as few blockers between the collectors of classified information and its ultimate recipient … which for Sheevy P’s grand purposes, would not be the Jedi Order.

(I figure there was a bit of a stink between the Jedi Council and the Chancellor, plastered over for like a day by that paragon of diplomacy Anakin Skywalker, over the reporting lines for CLONINT – the Council had assumed that CLONINT reported to them, while Anakin made the point that as Supreme Commander of the Republic Military, Palpatine was entitled to intelligence directly and CLONINT were perfectly free to bypass the Council.)

Republic Special Operations Directorate (RSOD)* = SOCOM, UKSF, etc., the combined special forces arms, with the MILINT bolt-on in the form of CLONINT. *This is my headcanoned name for the SOBDE command, our valiant lads in Katarn, who spend much of the books regarding themselves as something external to the GAR, because they are – they sit within a somewhat different branch. And given how rogue JSOC-y Traviss writes her favored units and characters, and the hints of interservice beef throughout the novels, I am also happy to silo them away.

While Repcomm centers commandos and Alpha ARCs in the SOB, I headcanon that Advanced Recon Commandos (e.g. Fives and Echo) and Advanced Recon Force Scouts (e.g. Boil and Waxer) also fall under this operational service, distinct from the Republic Navy and GAR, although SO combatants join and operate with RN and GAR units.

There are Jedi associated with the SOB: Iri Camas and Arligan Zey. Canon is a little contradictory on the relationship between Zey and Camas, both of whom are in command of Special Operations “brigades” at the start of the war, with Camas holding the title of ‘Director of Special Forces’, to be replaced (?) at some point by Zey. @kaasknot and I had a bit of fun cleaning this up. In the end, Camas was given a slight title change — Director of Special Operations — and kept as head of RSOD throughout, with the added bonus of CLONINT; given the staggering losses of Republic commandos in the first few months of the war, it’s not difficult to imagine the SO “brigades” are merged under Zey as Director of Special Forces, who then falls under Camas’s command, with a more operational than intelligence focus. (Whichever nameless Jedi was relieved of command of the weaker brigade probably got handed a GAR command instead :| ) Giving Camas the intelligence step-up also gives him a reason to be less present in the Repcomm narrative as it progresses, and his allegiance split with Zey that is shown so brutally in Impcomm: Camas remains a key liaison with the Jedi Council.

Given the scope of Camas’s office, we gave him a Marshal Commander XO, CC-2067 “Reaper” to do all the real work and put the fear of Fett into REPINT cadets where necessary. (Somehow Alpha-30 landed himself a desk job as Zey’s attaché, but Reaper doesn’t goad him about it – they should’ve promoted the Alpha plank and he knows it.) (Cody and Reaper are on pretty good terms; Reaper lets Cody play with his bad batches, and there’s enough AOR distance between the two that who-outranks-who doesn't really come up.)

IRL (at least in the US and UK), oversight — to say nothing of civilian oversight — of SOF commands is infamously poor, and I see no reason to make it any better in crumbling Republic. So the DSO reports to the same non-existent Minister/Secretary of Defense … in this case, the Supreme Chancellor or some minion in his office.

Another clone unit with a unique relationship to the Republic intelligence franchise would be the Coruscant Guard, given its protective remit and its subordinate Diplomatic Escort Group. I haven’t solidified my thoughts on whether they conduct their own threat identification/analysis/mitigation etc., or if that’s done by CLONINT/REPINT analysts who outsource operations accordingly. But the internal security apparatus, especially on Coruscant, is probably best left to another post.

[kungfuslipper]

“Are you bored?” Sev said, looking around at Fi.

“‘Cos I’m not. And your constant yakking is getting to me somewhat, ner vod.”

Republic Commando: Triple Zero pg 189.

… can I just point out that Sev started this conversation with his own comment?

“Okay, that one was routine. Garment delivery.” Sev made a low rumble in his throat, almost like an animal. “What do we look like from the outside now?”

Which Jusik answered, Fi asked another question, and now we get this ornery jab. My take? Sev is just as guilty of needling Fi for a reaction as the other way around.