#prongsfoot is more romantic than wolfstar

[hum-suffer]

"James." Sirius breathes.

Gryffindor just won the match against Ravenclaw and consequently will go into the final match of the year against Hufflepuff three months later.

James, captain this year, is standing on the common table in the common room while he belts out a song in Hindi that Sirius recognises but doesn't know or understand the lyrics to. He just knows it's something about love at first sight.

An arrow sears itself through his heart.

James is phenomenal.

He's waving his frameless glasses around as some exaggerated prop while he acts out the lyrics of the song dramatically, the earthy brown of his eyes is dark enough to look black most of the time but right now it looks a different shade of the abyss. He looks like he has stars in his eyes. He's still wearing his quidditch robes, the back of which still reads Black.

(Because the robes used to be Sirius' when he was still a beater on the team and since Sirius has occupied James' original robes for his pyjamas, James adjusts. Happily, it seems.)

James jumps around on the table, swinging his hips and he's grinning, tapping his foot along with the rhythm. The crowd cheers him on, plays at his fingertips without any instructions. None of them even know English singing but they're providing chorus when he points at them.

James sings something and puts a hand on his chest, pointing at Sirius, who's sitting all the way to the fireplace. He jumps down and saunters over to Sirius as the song comes to a crescendo and the crowd sings the chorus behind them, fully drunk.

James plops down on Sirius' lap, giving Sirius a dazed smile.

Remus, who's sitting beside him, grins at Sirius wryly. "Congratulations on the marriage, Padfoot."

"Fuck off, mate."

[hohohomelander]

the amount of reaching in gay shipping is truly a sight to see. These two men looked at each other so therefore gayyy! or i find them both attractive and cute so therefore they are a couple now! it goes the other way too by disregarding the actual woman he fell in love with and married. so what, that doesn't take away from him being gayyyy and if you disagree about this never mentioned to be anything other than straight guy being gay, well then you are the biggest homophobe ever. fuck off

[izzythehutt]

The Sirius being in love with James if he was into dudes is so real - how did Jegulus and Wolfstar become so popular when Prongsfoot was right there?!

The real reason is that shipping is more often a product of what fan culture wants than what the story itself shows (which is fine!) When Wolfstar became a thing, Jily was still the most popular ship for the MWPP era, and so you basically could have everyone's favorite characters double-dating (perfect excuse to cut unpopular Peter out of the dynamic altogether.) It was insanely popular for years and dominated all fanart and fanfic for those two characters—people when the books came out really thought it was canon and there was a lot of drama when Remadora sailed. The dynamic with Sirius and Remus in those fics played with a lot of typical/popular slash tropes (cool guy and bookish hot nerd) of the early 2000s.

Now, people ship what they ship, that's fine. My biggest issue with Wolfstar is that I feel like it led to people in the fandom fundamentally misinterpreting the dynamic of the Marauders as a group. James is clearly the person both of them like and trust the best of their friends, and it's canon that they both distrusted each other enough to each think the other was a spy. There is nothing in the books that would indicate there is anything particular in Lupin and Sirius's relationship (they might have actually been the least close of the four, given what happened.) In the Willow scene there is a classic adolescent boy group pecking order and Lupin is very obviously below James in Sirius's esteem. It's not a friendship of equals and is never portrayed as such. Lupin's inability to check Sirius and James's less savory behavior is a major character defining trait—he and Peter are both the followers in the group.

For the record, I think you could write Sirius/Remus in a romantic dynamic that would be consistent with their characters in the books, it would just be a hell of a lot more dysfunctional than fandom usually portrays them. Sirius would probably be using Lupin because he can't get James and Lupin would understand that's what's happening but put up with it because he has low self-esteem. He would still be passive-aggressive as hell, though.

Of course, Sirius and James having a romantic relationship gets in the way of the most important canon relationship, that of Harry's parents, which is why I suspect it never got a lot of traction in the fandom.

Jegulus seems to be a product of just moving away from the books/straight ships tbh. Back in my day Jily was a totally sacrosanct ship, nobody shipped either of them with anyone (except Snape with Lily, which actually had a canon basis! I guess Snape/James sort of existed too, but that was pretty fringe.)

Bonus: I even find Sirius and Snape being shipped together more plausible/interesting than Sirius and Lupin, lol. Shout out to the Snack people.

[siriusblackdevotee]

Ranting about Romantic Prongsfoot or Prongsfoot in general??

I saw someone post saying romantic Prongsfoot is basically incest. I sighed then scrolled. Was that so hard? Seeing an opinion you don't like, and then just moving on? Because that's exactly what romantic Prongsfoot is, an opinion.

The fandom analyzed canon Sirius's behavior, actions and dialogue when it involved James and we all pretty much came to the conclusion that Sirius's entire world revolved around James. Like a dog, a man's best friend, he was incredibly loyal and devoted to James.

Then, some of us decided to take a step further and made them soulmates in a platonic sense. Not best friends, brothers, but soulmates. Like we're talking Viktor and Jayce level.

That's like the one thing wolfstar, Jegulus and Prongsfoot shippers have in common; James and Sirius are soulmates. Or even something deeper if you want to take a step further. All the famous fanfics have this, where James and Sirius have Something between them, even if it's a Jegulus or wolfstar fanfic.

That's why some of you feel like romantic Prongsfoot is incest. Because most fanfics have written them as brothers, you're reading two characters that are portrayed as brothers so often, you start to perceive them as brothers. You think they're brothers.

And you're allowed to! No like, you're very allowed to. Can I emphasize again, how often fanfics portray them as brothers? Like genuinely, no one's stopping you.

But you have to understand, that's your perspective, your view, your opinion. It's not a fact because they are not brothers. They are close as brothers yes, but not actually.

They don't have a ragbros situation. Sirius wasn't adopted into the Potter family at 8 or something and then raised by them after. That's probably incest. I have an adopted brother, I do know.

He was adopted into the family at 16. You're considered an adult at 18 in the wizarding world. He had inheritance from his uncle Alphard. It's said he moved out on his own later.

All this implies Sirius didn't live that long with Potters. I'm not saying Sirius didn't develop a familial bond with the Potters because he was too old during the adoption. He probably did see Euphimia and Monty as his parents at some point.

But he was James' best friend so much longer than their son. A couple of limited years with the Potters is nothing compared to the 5+ years he spent being James' best friend. I say limited because he keeps being that best friend even after he moved out.

That bond, if you want, can be solidified into something sibling-level after the adoption. You can have your headcanons, fantasies and fanfics where Sirius runs away to a healthier, welcoming family!!

But I don't think their bond could just change like that?? Again, around 5+ years of having this special connection, where they are used to living together, sharing the same space, being glued to each other, why would being adopted into the family change anything between them?? Besides like, getting yelled at together by James' parents, their routine would have stayed the same.

And you're telling me I CANT romanticize that?? Because YOU see them as brothers??? When they're so much deeper than that???

Would it not have solidified it more?? Would it not have gotten deeper?? Especially when they have privacy now.

Like you can't tell me they weren't having conversations where they bared their souls to each other, diving in and revealing the ugliest parts to each other, deepest fears, insecurities, quite literally breaking themselves down into pieces because it's just them there and then putting those pieces back together, glued with loving words and gentle touches because it's them. Or fucking. Up to y'all idk.

I'm going off the rails. The point is, you can dislike, like, hate, love ships for whatever reasons, I genuinely don't care. But if you're hating on a ship because you FEEL like it's incest, please just keep it to yourself. No one wants to be told their favorite ship reminds you of incest.

Again, tagging filters exist, I don't consider prongsfoot a rarepair but it's true people rarely write them. You literally cannot accidentally stumble upon prongsfoot fanfics and literally no one's forcing you to read them??

Prongsfoot is like the least problematic thing in this fandom?? And its barely problematic!! People ship ACTUAL incest!! Like starcest!! (...good for them but also like...)

calling prongsfoot incest when actual incest ships exists is insane.

[neverenoughmarauders]

The thing that frustrates me with the fanon ships is that I’ve slowly come to realise I’d happily ship any combination of the Marauders, if they stayed more true to their canon selves…

What if Sirius and Peter dated (and James and Sirius were the co-dependent mess they were in canon)? Was Peter jealous of James? How did someone like Sirius start dating someone like Peter? How does the betrayal play out (as in it’s now obvious why Sirius trusts Peter, but why does Peter betray Sirius and James). How can Sirius live with the guilt knowing it might have been his feelings for Peter that blinded him to the betrayal? How did this fuel Sirius’ anger towards Peter in PoA?

What if Remus and James dated (and James and Sirius were the co-dependent mess they were in canon)? When did they start dating? Why did James leave him for Lily? Or did Remus leave him (maybe he saw how much James enjoyed Lily’s company now they were starting to become friends and knowing James wouldn’t leave him)? How does this affect the betrayal? Does Sirius suspect Remus because he’s an ex of James and have been withdrawn since James and Lily started dating?

What if Peter and James dated (and James and Sirius were the co-dependent mess they were in canon). Was their past relationship what fuelled Peter to betray James and his family? How did Peter feel about being third to both Sirius and Lily? Was James and Peter’s past relationship why Sirius trusted Peter?

What if Remus and Peter dated… when did the start dating? Did they start dating because they felt like slight outsiders to Sirius and James? Did it continue during the war? What was Peter’s end game in the betrayal? Did he plan to keep Remus safe? Was their relationship why Remus was so stone cold towards Peter in POA (because the betrayal hurt a thousand times more)?

What if Sirius and James dated? Well this is where I struggle as I do love an AU prongsfoot, but sticking to my rules… when did their unhealthy co-dependent relationship shift to a romantic one? Why did James end up with Lily (and let it be a good reason please)? Why was Sirius so happy at their wedding? (How) did they continue their relationship (platonic or otherwise) after Lily and James got married?

I’ve left wolfstar off for the sole reason that there are some good metas out there on what a more canon-compliant version could look like (given it’s the most popular fanon ship). But you get the idea by now… what if we more canon versions of Sirius and Remus’ relationship!!

None of these are necessarily happy stories, nor do they paint our characters in a nice light, because these characters are flawed. But all of these ships have so much to offer and far more than this brief post can get into. And here’s the deal: we’re lacking all of them - especially the more niche ships!

We don’t need to create new versions of these characters when there’s so much left to explore !!

And maybe I will explore some of this, once I’m done with my long fic!

[saintsenara]

Oooo thoughts on remus/james? :0

thank you very much for the ask, anon!

my preferred version of the marauders' dynamic is that james is the central figure in each of their lives [and that, without him, peter, remus, and sirius don't... automatically gel] and absolutely integral to each of their senses of self.

which means that, when it comes to shipping them, i am very much of the opinion that james potter and his three boyfriends is canon.

but i also think that there's a subtle difference in each of the marauders' platonic relationship with james, which would impact how any romantic relationship with him functioned.

and with wolfbucks i think you have - in comparison to prongsfoot, which is so rampantly codependent, and to wormbucks, which will be influenced by the resentment and jealousy of james which must lurk under peter's outward affection for him - a relationship in which a constructed, flawless version of james is worshipped by remus and the james who actually exists is never approached by his friend as a real person.

we see this in canon - that, while sirius' grief for james feels more visceral and raw than remus', sirius is also able to acknowledge the reality of james much more openly, while remus chafes against the idea that he might have had any negative characteristics at all. remus is the person who dismisses the tension between snape and james as snape's jealousy of james being talented and sexy in prisoner of azkaban; when harry confesses having seen his father being a bully in snape's worst memory, sirius who cops to their behaviour, while remus attempts to protect james from harry's anger.

i think there's something really interesting which can be done with the idea of remus' adoration of a perfect james who doesn't really exist having to careen headfirst into the reality of james as a human boyfriend, with all of the accompanying faults and flaws, that could either be really toxic or genuinely moving if an author wanted to take it in either direction.

but i think there's also something really interesting in the idea that james would want to maintain the flattering image of himself which remus had invented, and that he would, therefore, go out of his way to indulge remus' more straightforwardly negative characteristics in order to maintain his status in his lover's eyes.

[i do, in fact, think that this characteristic - in terms of wolfbucks' platonic relationship, at least - is canon. remus' shock in deathly hallows when harry is furious at the suggestion that he might just walk out on his pregnant wife and unborn child heavily implies to me that james would have just said "yep. do what you want, king" in the same situation...]

and so, while i would certainly say that wolfbucks would be much more deeply rooted in artifice in prongsfoot... i can't say the potential for total mess it contains doesn't compel me...

and it certainly compels me more than wolfstar.

[shivstar]

A genuine request from a fellow Marauders' fan.

Dear Jegulus and wolfstar side of fandom,

You people put yourself as someone who promotes ship all and let people ship all. Well good for you.

But please do not tag Prongsfoot if the post contains absolutely nothing about them. Like your side of fandom is so big that you don't need to tag random ships not even mentioned in the post for reach purpose.

Ps- Prongsfoot is a ship name. Like tag it if the post is about Sirius and James in a romantic settings. But if even that much is too much of an ask than atleast the post can be about platonic prongsfoot for it to be tagged.

From- A marauders fan. Someone who has no interest in the greatness of Alpha male, dominant, casanova werewolf Remus Lupin. And sad emo boy Regulus Black forced to join death eaters because his reckless drama queen pathetic elder brother left him with monster parents with no care in world. A Sirius to whom moony is more important than James Potter, who is whitewashed as the sunshine guy.

--- someone who is harassed by random post of jegulus and wolfstar. Despite not having any interest in those ships whatsoever only because they were tagged with Prongsfoot.

I am tagging everyone of your favorite character and ship names for visibility factor so that this request reaches wide majority of fandom. And to give you guys a taste of your own medicine as to how it feels to be forced to go through a post only because it was wrongly tagged....

[midnightstargazer]

Anyone else get the feeling that romantic and platonic Moonwater have totally different vibes?

Yeah, me too. So I looked at the stats. The info below was found on AO3, November 3, 2024.

Rating

Romantic Moonwater is far more likely to be rated E. Gen fics with platonic Moonwater are far more likely to be rated T and less likely to be rated M. A higher percentage of the platonic fics are not rated.

Archive Warnings

Chose Not to Warn is the most frequent warning for both, followed by Graphic Depictions of Violence - though this is nearly tied with Underage for romantic Moonwater. The least frequent archive warning for both is Rape/Non-Con. Romantic Moonwater is more likely to use No Archive Warnings Apply (45% vs. 37%) and is less likely to use Chose Not to Warn (33% vs. 40%).

Categories

Works in the platonic Regulus & Remus tag are not primarily gen fics focused on the friendship. The majority of works fit into one of the romantic ship categories.

M/M: 747 (76%)

F/F: 302 (30%)

F/M: 272 (28%)

Gen: 204 (21%)

Multi: 169 (17%)

Other: 56 (6%)

It's worth noting that while the vast majority of romantic Moonwater works had the M/M tag (sometimes along with others), about 9% did not.

(looks like the ones that didn't are mostly multi, gen, or have no category tagged.)

Ships

Aside from Regulus/Remus or Regulus & Remus, the most popular ships tagged in these works are:

(the list of ships was compiled by taking the top 5 relationships other than Moonwater from each of the following: Regulus & Remus, Regulus & Remus gen fics, Regulus/Remus, and Regulus/Remus with Jegulus and Wolfstar filtered out)

Aside from romantic Prongsfoot vs. platonic Sirius & James, there is not much difference in which ships co-occur with either version.

The biggest difference is that the romantic ship is far less likely to occur alongside any of these others. 78% of the platonic Moonwater works have Wolfstar, 60% have Jegulus, and 56% have Regulus & Sirius. By contrast, those numbers are 26%, 15%, and 11% for the romantic Moonwater works.

Characters

The most popular characters tagged were the same for both ships. Aside from Regulus and Remus, the top 5 were Sirius, James, Lily, Peter, and Barty, in that order.

There were just under 1,000 works for both platonic and romantic, so the top of the chart is roughly equivalent to the total. Much like with relationships, even though it's the same characters, they are less likely to be tagged in works where the Moonwater is romantic. Barty is also more likely to make an appearance, proportionally to the other characters, in works where it's platonic.

Additional Tags

There are some pretty clear differences between gen fic platonic Moonwater and platonic Moonwater as a whole. The former is less likely to have the friendship tag as an additional tag, and more likely to be tagged with Canon Divergence, Regulus Black Lives, and Regulus Black-centric. It's less likely to be a modern AU or to feature specific gender and sexuality headcanons. And, quite understandably, it's less likely to be tagged as smut. Angst, fluff, and Marauders Era are the most popular for both, though.

The same three tags are the most popular for romantic Moonwater, but to a much lesser degree. As with other categories, there seems to be more variety in tagging with the romantic ship, rather than a small number of options being dominant. There is not much difference in tagging between the fics without Wolfstar and Jegulus vs. the romantic Moonwater fics overall.

(Note: the tags were chosen by looking at the top 10 in the Additional Tags section of the AO3 sidebar, but the numbers proved to be inaccurate, so I double-checked all of them by going into the ship tag and actually applying the additional tag as a filter.)

Analysis & Conclusions

Before I started looking into the AO3 data, my impression was that platonic Moonwater occurs mainly in the context of Wolfstar and Jegulus, and is usually portrayed as fluffy and wholesome, whereas romantic Moonwater exists more independently of the popular ships and has a tendency to be darker, more likely to lean into the Enemies to Lovers (or Lovers to Enemies) angle, and more likely to deal with mature content.

This was accurate in some respects. Very few platonic Moonwater fics are gen fics which focus on the friendship outside the context of a romantic pairing, and the most popular ones are indeed Wolfstar and Jegulus. It's also accurate that romantic Moonwater works are more likely to be rated M or E, especially compared to platonic Moonwater works categorized as gen.

When it comes to fluffy and wholesome vs. darker, my perception wasn't necessarily accurate. Platonic Moonwater fics are far more likely than romantic ones to be tagged with angst, for instance. What did prove to be the case is that there's a lot more variety in how romantic Moonwater fics are tagged.

I personally avoid Jegulus and seek out canon universe fics with morally gray characterizations of Regulus. Most likely, because I've been able to find fics that fit these preferences in romantic Moonwater, but less often in platonic, that skewed my perception of the ships as a whole.

Overall, though, looking at the stats has validated my feeling that the two relationships are different on a more significant level than just purely whether or not they're a romantic couple.

Google Sheets link to data

[sofoulandfairaday]

Thoughts on Wolfstar?

tldr: i used to enjoy it but the fandom ruined it for me.

the only wolfstar i really enjoy reading is angsty wolfstar, you see.

the thing is- i'm a bit of a prongsfoot truther. i think the two of them - sirius and james - were platonic soulmates. and i think that sirius' story, the themes of his character are not centred around romantic love/attraction. i'm fairly convinced that giving him a partner in the canon wouldn't have added anything to him, and perhaps even taken something away. i can see unrequited!prongsfoot (where sirius doesn't even realise that he's in love with james) as potentially canon.

and, to me, there are two main characteristics that a good wolfstar story has:

james was the most important person in both sirius and remus' lives

the two of them were deeply suspicious of one another after leaving hogwarts

i love the idea of the two of them getting together over their shared grief over losing james to lily in 7th year, each seeing so plainly the other's jealousy and not being able to name their own. i love the idea of a torrid love affair with tons of hate!sex during the first wizarding war because they firmly believe the other's the spy but they love each other. i love the idea of them reuniting in grimmauld and feeling as if they have to cling on to each other because they're the only thing the other has left of the best time of their lives - but they can't, they can't understand each other. sirius sees something blooming between remus and nymphadora and can't help but feeling cheated out of a friend yet. again. and why is he the only person that values friendship more than love?

i love the idea of them referring to their romance as a friendship still, even though no one else would call it that. sirius can't help but feel resentful that remus gets sent on order missions, remus can't help but resent sirius for the privileges he still - still, even as a convicted murderer, however falsely - has. remus is dirt poor, you guys. not many authors underline this properly. so he cannot help but resent someone who throws out ancient family heirlooms like it's nothing.

but. the main problem i have with wolfstar is the fandom. a whole fandom was born around it and i don't particularly care for it. i hate the tropes it upholds - extremely femme/submissive sirius & alpha moony is... it makes me mad on a visceral level, you guys have no idea, and i find it incredibly homophobic - and the way people in it act, the complete perversion of both their characters by people who've never even read the original source material. i don't care for the slander of dora's character either. i much preferred the sweater-wearing, tea-loving, shy remus and leather-jacket wearing sirius that was the fandom stereotype some years ago. it wasn't perfectly canonical, but it also wasn't ridiculous.

[nyxunderwood]

Read your latest prongsfoot fic. Loved the premise and characterisation.

The pinning from Sirius's side and confusion from James. Just eating it all up...

Question - i understand that portraying Sirius as a runaway 16 year old comes with it a lot of complexities. Having his entire life scrambled and upturned and I believe that plays a huge role in Sirius placing James on a pedestal of sorts. Like in prongsfoot, I feel there is a power imbalance. With James always having upper hand of sorts. Because he has stable relationship with his parents. Even after his breakup with Lily, they are usually shown to be good friends. Remus and Peter are primarily james's friend. Sirius on the other hand is the guy who's entire existence can be summed up in terms of James Potter. He has no one else who is purely on his side. His supporter. Everyone who is his is also somehow related to James too. What are your thoughts of the power dynamic between them.

Also, i agree the insecurities such kind of situation can bring into a person's mind. But i was a bit turned off by Sirius praising Remus's intelligence and claiming that moony is the smartest of all. Like animagus at 16, flying motor bike, magic mirrors, sane even after azkaban. Sirius is magically intelligent. He is emotionally intelligent too because in swm James is the stupid one, Sirius has to tell him that lily thinks he is conceited. So the question is are these his insecurities speaking or is this another one of Remus appreciation at work? . Like I just hate it when Sirius is the stupid one. I see that sort of characterisation in wolfstar Or jegulus side of fandom when Moony can do no bad and is better than everyone. So just wanted to know...

Thanks so much for reading and great question! In Object Permanence, I’m very focused on the impact that an abusive childhood has had on Sirius. You’ve absolutely hit the nail on the head (at least from my perspective) about the fact Sirius has a lot more to lose than James by exploring a romantic relationship. This is something that will come up in the story so I’ll avoid giving spoilers here.

The comment Sirius made about Remus was definitely a a joke about the rash and silly actions James and Sirius got into as classic shot-stirrers. My interpretation of Sirius (and James) is that they were those smart kids who just got it without having to put excessive effort in. That’s why I think it’s feasible they smashed the Auror course when they really put the effort in.

Although Remus is more a supporting character in the story I do find it quite poignant that he faces so many limitations on his potential because of circumstances beyond his control. But I think of him more as sensible and hard working rather than a natural. There will be an interesting (I hope) interaction between Remus and Sirius about Remus’ situation - will be interested to hear your thoughts.

Reflecting on your question about Sirius more deeply though, I think the nice comment about Remus also felt like an in character comment because Sirius is being self-deprecating. I can’t say too much without spoiling future storylines but let’s just say James is going to be going the extra mile to build up that confidence…

Thanks again for the question and for reading. Hope you enjoy the next chapter.

[hum-suffer]

There's something about Sirius being the only one who celebrates Diwali with James at Hogwarts and James being the only one who can dress Sirius' wounds after summer. Something about how Sirius is a literal dog, worshipping at James' feet and how James will protect Sirius so fiercely that no one dared to get Sirius back to the Blacks' after Sirius ran to James. Something about Sirius only ever trusting James so explicitly and James never breaking that trust.

[whinlatter]

thoughts about wolfstar? you're now the one i go to for any hp related thoughts

omg this is VERY nice of you but i'm pure flop on marauders thoughts, they're all extremely half-baked, so best left to others. here my half-baked wolfstar thoughts offered sheepishly and apologetically!

the thing is - i quite like the idea of wolfstar. to be honest i was sort of imagining a sort of wistful wolfstar vibe to how i wrote lupin in orchards in the aftermath of sirius' death. but i think the wolfstar i like is quite a specific version of it that's increasingly hard to find in fic searches so i don't often go looking for it (which is pure laziness on my part). my interest in canon coherent characterisation limits me here - i think there's such a strong case for wolfstar as a pairing written in ways that attend to the very clear dynamics (and timelines) that canon makes plausible (including in AUs, where actually characterisation matters more, not less, than in 'canon compliant' fics, because it's the reader's only anchor). there is an intensity and an intimacy to what sirius and remus share in the marauders and the significance of a boyhood spent together in their adult lives, a literal physical proximity of them living together as adults post azkaban as two men who have such complex feels towards themselves and especially to their bodies, including an overlapping self loathing, and they're both characters that can very plausibly read as queer-coded in rich and interesting ways. and then, of course, there's an inherent narrative shape to both of their canon arcs (the tragedy, delicious). these are just some of the dynamics in a potential romantic relationship between the two of them that can make for really rich and interesting potential to work with in fic writing.

the trouble i find with a lot of wolfstar, less as a matter of principle than what actually gets written more often than not, is that the stuff i personally find rewarding and interesting as a writer/reader is work that bears some relationship with the canon text (even if - especially if - it's to pull it apart and expose its flaws and complexities). a queer reading of the relationship between sirius and remus in canon is absolutely plausible and can be deeply compelling, and, as queering HP as a text remains a powerful fuck you to its author whose reaction to the ship was errrr quite homophobic, still really important.

but. challenging the text means having some sense of the characterisation of the essence of these characters as rendered in the text, and canon is clear about certain aspects of sirius and remus' characterisations that limits my enthusiasm for a lot of wolfstar that has sprung up in recent years (especially in and around ATYD, which i'll say more about in a minute). the truth is that canon strongly suggests that sirius cares much less about remus than he ever does about james (dropping @saintsenara's excellent manifesto for why unrequited prongsfoot is canon, also the rec for one of the best fics i read last year that @ashesandhackles put me onto, empire builders by shecrows, a gorgeous complex funny angsty prongsfoot fic that's not not canon compliant timeline-wise). it's also clear that the marauders as a friendship group functioned as a group of three boys all working towards james potter as the de facto leader, each with their own complicated feelings and levels of loyalty and devotion to james that undoubtedly shaped, and limited, how the other three felt towards each other (especially after james' death). the kind of wolfstar lore that's sprung up in the last few years, especially from marauderstok, of roadman remus the romeo of gryffindor tower that young sirius is wildly and hopelessly in love with, and is desperate to reunite with after azkaban, is a version of wolfstar that's sort of compelling as an original story but, for my taste, bears too little relationship to their core canon characterisation to be really up my street. a wolfstar with really fucked up power dynamics that plays with sirius' idolisation of james and remus having to play second fiddle? delicious. or even unrequited/onesided wolfstar from remus to sirius - yum. but the rest, i struggle with. by the time they've left school, remus thinks sirius is the spy and sirius thinks remus is the spy. that is not giving soulmates, in my mind. but as with most of these things, i'm very open to being proved wrong.

(with that said, though, i think the subculture and lore that's built around wolfstar is really astonishing and often extremely compelling, i think ATYD is obviously a huge accomplishment and deserves its flowers for launching such a phenomenon, and there's masses of quality writing and art and general creative talent coming out of wolfstar spaces that it's hard not to be continually impressed by. also some of those tiktok edits absolutely slap. that remus-centric animated noah kahan one. unreal)

[annabtg]

I have to ask why is the marauders fandom so obsessed with Sirius and his looks? You guys act like he’s this Casanova but there’s no proof of it. Yes, he’s mentioned to be good looking but I’ve met my fair share of pretty boys who turn me off as soon as they open their mouths. Everything around Sirius is always made so sexual… it’s either Wolfstar or Jilypad. It’s like you guys can’t get over this looks and dig deeper into his personality, family history, and his life story. There’s so much material and stories that could be told but everyone focuses on his looks and it’s so condescending. If you guys do tell his story it’s like 20% his story 80% of everyone trying to shag him. I can’t find one story that actually does a great job of telling the brotherhood between the marauders, without turning it into some story of how everyone is obsessed with Sirius’ looks. James and Sirius were brothers in every way but in blood. We don’t know much about Lily and Sirius but with the letter sent she obviously cared enough to reach out to him because James missed his best friend and was having a hard time at the cottage. Remus and Sirius relationship is tragic and isn’t talked about enough. The guy was willing to become an animagus to help him but didn’t trust him enough to think I he was working against the order? Then there’s Peter who is by far the most underrated marauder and fooled them all, and got Sirius sentenced to Azkaban for 12 years. There’s so much more to Sirius then his looks and making up sexual relationships with the marauders. I used to love marauder fandom but the new writers have ruined everything and turned it into stories of everyone wanting to shag Sirius. There’s no plot, no story line, only the whole wizarding world fawning over how gorgeous Sirius is.

My poor dear anon,

What shallow, misguided corners of the fandom have you found yourself into?

I don't know if you found me through my writing or my latest shitpost. Probably the latter, because if you'd spent any time around here, you'd know that Sirius, for me, is so much more than someone to fawn over and shag - he's one of the most intelligent, most loyal, most characters and I'm fascinated by so many more of his facets than his indubitable handsomeness. (I do love to thirst over good artwork of him, but that's not exclusive to him.) I don't really have much tolerance for people who view Sirius as the person you describe and I don't engage with them.

But let's take a look at some definitions before we proceed.

1. The Marauders fandom. These days this is a term that hardly means anything, as it's been liberally adopted by anyone who focuses on any HP character who was alive sometime before Halloween 1981. Wolfstar shippers and Jilypad shippers, for instance, are two different groups with very little overlap, in my experience.

2. Sexualization. Sexualization means to reduce someone to their physical attractiveness and sexual potential and ignore their other qualities and characteristics. It does not mean being in a romantic relationship and/or having sex.

So, anon, I believe one of two things is what's at play here:

Possibility #1: You found yourself in some corner of the fandom that does sexualize Sirius. I don't know where that might be - I think even Wolfstar doesn't do that (it seems to me that they have the opposite problem these days, sexualizing Remus instead!). My main ship is Jily, though, and I find that overall people here have great appreciation for Sirius.

Come to the dark side. We have cookies biscuits, we appreciate Sirius as a friend to James and Lily (oh look, a whole fic fest dedicated to Sirius's friendship with Lily!), and while himbo Casanova Sirius used to be a popular trope in the mid-00s, I haven't seen it in fic since I got back into fandom two years ago.

(Disclaimer: There are always going to be thirsty fics. Prongsfoot, Lilypad and Jilypad, which I delve into, are not devoid of that either. And sometimes you just acknowledge that Sirius is one of the hottest characters in HP and just want to see him in action. Those fics are E-rated and usually pretty easy to avoid, and do not, in my experience, constitute the norm of how Sirius is treated within these fandoms.)

Possibility #2: You just don't like shippy fic at all; you want to read gen instead. That's completely valid, and I understand that completely non-shippy fic is hard to find. Especially with Jily being canon, so if you have to explore Sirius in a canon context there's probably going to at least be a side of Jily - that people always tag, because ships make or break fics for lots of readers, and it's recommended to tag for even minor presence or mention of a ship.

It does seem to me that the Marauders fandom now is more ship-focused than it used to be, I agree with you. I feel like gen fic back then was easier to find. I'd attribute that to a lot of us being older now and more interested in more "adult" situations, where some sort of romance is usually present, compared to the mostly teenaged fandom of 20 years ago that was more concerned with friendship and teenage shenanigans. But there are still people interested in Sirius and his non-romantic relationships with others - like those of us who wrote for Blackevans BFF fest (linked previously) and the people writing for @goodgodfathersiriusblack.

Bottomline: Do you want good quality Sirius content, or do you want Sirius content exactly how you want it? I can help with the first - stick around for posts, fics and recs. For the second, you'll have to be the change you want to see in the world.

[arianwyn-art]

okay here’s my opinion on marauders ships DO NOT COME AFTER ME FOR THIS THESE ARE MY PERSONAL OPINIONS

mlm / poly containing men / non-women loving men

starting with jegulus- okay i love jegulus. like so much. I had a hard time liking it at first bc I think my idea of james was a very canon compliant jily atyd (love atyd though) version but i’ve matured and i love jeguluss

wolfstar - wolfstar is my everything okay. they feel safe and secure and homey. there are certain versions i don’t like but my version is amazing i don’t take criticism

rosekiller - pls i love them so much they’re my current obsession and we absolutely need more esp exploring evan’s characterization

bartylus - it’s okay but in my mind it’s always bartylus —> rosekiller + jegulus

prongsfoot (james x sirius) - okay i like the idea of them figuring out they were queer w each other but as more than that nah

jegulily - yes yes oml yes the only thing i don’t like is i hc reg being gay so me personally i think it’s more like reg and lily are more platonic / very close but not fully romantic

[nocturnal-phantoms-fandoms]

☕️ wolfstar vs prongsfoot!! thoughts 🎤

omg thank you so much :D what a tasty topic to talk about!

(it got so long im putting it under the cut 😅)

[important note: this is how i feel about those ships, not a meta which ship is better/more canon]

i need to preface with saying that im a wolfstar shipper, first and foremost. I wasnt shipping prongsfoot from the beginning (I wasnt shipping any non-canonical couples while reading / right after finishing the books tbh. shortly after entering the fandom I encountered wolfstar and that might be a major reason why I still ship them). but I do see the appeal of prongsfoot, and I am a proud wolfstarbucks enjoyer. (also note that I imagine them by default in their 20s, so before Azkaban, but after Sirius runs away, but i will talk about book canon too). But enough personal lore. 

prongsfoot is an amazing ship and in a different universe it would be The Ship of The Marauders / MWPP fandom - have some things happened differently (if we got more actual James content earlier than the 5th book). They are joined at the hip, they invented the two-way mirrors to talk during detentions, Sirius runs away and the Potters take him in, Sirius is bored and James tries to lighten him up by bullying Snape, James trusts Sirius with his literal life. They are each other's favorite person, they would fight for each other, stand up for each other, give their life for the other. They are soulmates, two sides of the same coin, and they do love each other, there is no denying that. Also they are both attractive, capable and competent, so I 100% get the appeal of this ship. However most of the time (not always, just, usually) i see their love as unrequired, romantically speaking. (they love each other and sirius is in love with james - that is true, for me, in every universe - i.e. in canon and in wolfstar concepts/scenarios. however james being in love with sirius romantically is true in prongsfoot-aligned universes) 

Narratively (canonically) speaking, both ships are extremely tragic (and thats what makes both of them interesting*). James dies at 21 and Sirius blames himself for it for the rest of his life, gets locked up in torture prison, and cannot even make up for it by fulfilling his role as a godfather. // Sirius and Remus lose trust in each other during the war, believe the other is the traitor, and even after they miraculously reunite their time together is cut short with Sirius being on a run and then dying. 

But there's one thing that makes wolfstar so compelling to me - they get each other, on some level that nobody else gets access to. 

[note: we are entering headcanon and projection territory, from the pov of a r/s shipper]

I'm not saying James doesn't understand or support Sirius - of course he does. James would be on Sirius’s side no matter what - even if everyone else thinks Sirius is wrong, even if he knows he is wrong. They are ride or die. They also understand each other on a, lets say, intellectual level - they are both exceptionally intelligent, they always agree with each other and they do everything together (bullied Snape, made the map (yeah, remus and peter helped), became animagi (peter was there too i guess), joined the order at the same time etc). 

But there is some part of Sirius that I think James never truly grasps and Sirius never feels truly understood even though he knows james loves and supports him. And thats what makes wolfstar so special to me, bc I think that Remus does get Sirius. 

Wolfstar get each other in a way that they recognize some part - ugly, twisted, buried deeply and hidden from everyone - in the other. They are both deeply misunderstood, traumatized by their childhoods and oppressed by society - just in different ways - and there is no one else who truly gets them on this level. 

While Remus had a relatively happy childhood and caring parents, he was turned when he was five and then later learned it was partially his father’s fault, and was virtually isolated from his peers until he went to Hogwarts; he has a much lower social status than J & S, he is poor and can't find a job (especially after POA) and is generally having a bad time because of his lycanthropy. 

Sirius was emotionally and psychologically abused by his parents that expected him to be the perfect pureblood heir and then, after making his life so miserable he run away, cut him off; also if I remember correctly artemisia-black wrote a meta about Sirius being a victim of the society he was born to “rule”. At the same time, while he is a pureblood, when he runs away he loses the heir status and for a bit (a year? i think?) he has no money to his name. And obviously he is tortured during Azkaban, and then later he is an ex-con on a run with a bounty on his head. 

I also think they both carry some self-loathing in their hearts (just, again, different kinds). Sirius hates himself in a “I was born wrong and deep down I’m evil (and I have to work my whole life to make up for this” way (partially bc he was born in a bigoted abusive family. partially bc he is a scorpio i guess). Remus hates himself in a “I am unworthy of love and I don't deserve nice things” way. 

They are so different - probably couldn't be more different - their personalities and worldviews and even values don't match - and yet there is no one else now who understands the other better.

And then, after POA, turns out they are the only ones left – moreover, they did not only go through the same war, they went through the exact same loss. 

And I do think its evident in canon, to some extent. They reunite after Azkaban and immediately forgive each other – to me it speaks volumes about their relationship pre-Azkaban. How they almost seem like they are reading each others minds in the shack scene, the way they are so ready to murder Peter, and to do it together, how they fall back into a familiar rhythm. They forgive each other 12 years of heartbreak and loneliness and in Sirius’s case torture and knowing the other thought they were a traitor in one short conversation. Would Sirius ask for forgiveness for believing Remus was the traitor if he didnt care about him? Would he accept Remus’s own apology? 

Anyways. 

It turned into a meta about wolfstar. Im. so sorry. 

I'm not saying wolfstar is more “canon” - bc it isn't, especially from the doylist perspective (jkr didnt intend for them to be read as a couple). But I did read the metas proving that wolfstar is canon written while the books where coming out and my heart breaks for those people who still had hope back then. It also doesnt really matter which is more canon (its prongsfoot) (but again, not from the doylist perspective). 

In conclusion, I like prongsfoot and I do think its a very good ship I ship them in a more passive way - i reblog metas and fanarts, I have one fic idea that technically starts with prongsfoot and sometimes I read fics, but i dont think about them enough to call myself a prongsfoot shipper per se. But I do think Sirius is in love with James, even while shipping him with Remus. I know I sound like a broken record, but Im once again bringing up wolfstarbucks - I do ship prongsfoot in the wolfstarbucks context, but not so much on their own, if that makes sense - and not bc I dont get the appeal, bc I do. But Im also delusional and Ive been shipping wolfstar for way too long to abandon this ship now, even if shipping them is very impractical (for various reasons). 

*also i think it interesting that i mostly engage with domestic fluff, hurt/Comfort, angst-with-a-happy-ending, fix-it type of fics. its not bc i wish things happened differently in canon (maybe besides sirius dying but thats a separate, not shipping, issue). wolfstar is tragic, in a way, but i very rarely engage in canon-compliant type of content. however I wouldnt be interested in wolfstar if it wasnt tragic. i know many people have different approaches to shipping, and it might be weird to see someone talk about how tragic wolfstar is and the turn around and talk about how happy they are in a seaside cottage or whatever. tragedy of wolfstar makes it interesting for me and a seaside cottage makes me happy bc i get sad when i think about canon. also did i mention im a delusional person. 

[solitaire-sol]

Prongsfoot Week 2023 - Day 1

This... maybe got away from me a bit, but I'll take any chance to present my Prongsfoot ramblings in a semi-organized fashion!

When and Why did you begin to Ship Prongsfoot? What makes you Ship it? Basically, just gush on this ship.

Somewhat ironically, developing a NOTP led me to this OTP: Back when the books were still coming out, I was a Harmony shipper. (Not a crazy one, I swear!) This led to a lot of "discussions" with people who shipped other pairings, but most relevantly with several Sirius/Remus fans who were both extremely disdainful of my noncanon ship and adamant that their ship was, in fact, canon/eventual canon. This led to little Past Me re-reading the PoA and post-PoA books multiple times, trying and failing to see this "proof" of Wolfstar, but in the process paying a lot more attention to pre-Golden Trio characters. "Actually," I thought, "Sirius seems a lot more attached to Harry's dad than to Lupin. Huh." I found myself fascinated by their dynamic, by the hold Sirius' friendship with (and loss of) James had on Sirius, and how much is implied about James that we don't get to see (the Potter lineage, James "maturing," etc). Imagine my disappointment when not only was Sirius/James not popular, but Wolfstar, which didn't appeal to me, was only gaining steam (see: "Wolfstar is canon/eventual canon!"). Shipping wars were more 'maniacal sports fans' than 'political discourse' at the time, but between being deep into then-fandom and not liking Wolfstar, I found myself shipping Sirius/James almost by accident because… Well, it just made so much more sense.

Yes, James is dead before the series actually starts; yes, James marries a woman and has a son; but I've yet to meet a fandom that lets such paltry things as 'canonical facts' stop a ship, and it's always baffled me that Prongsfoot isn't more widely recognized for its potential, if nothing else. I will always believe this stems from a one-two punch of early HP fandom's obsession with canon vs noncanon, Jily being canon, which led to Wolfstar and the subsequent idea that Sirius "belongs" to Remus With the series completed, we have a surprisingly complex character in James, tantalizingly hinted-at if not explored in-depth, and we're given ample on-page examples of Sirius' exceptional qualities as well as his deep attachment to James, who must be exceptional himself to command this kind of devotion and affection. They're the most interesting characters to me, for what we see and what we don't see, and unlike a lot of other pairings they don't require a hammer and chisel to force them into a romantic mold: They're best friends and platonic soulmates, but they could just as easily be romantic partners and the shift feels completely natural. There's an equality and an authenticity to their partnership that I cherish deeply and don't find in a lot of their other ships, which often require them to be OOC… and if a fic doesn't include them as each other's best friend and Most Important Person, I consider it OOC.

In a way, lack of good James/Sirius friendship nudged me towards actual Prongsfoot because other ships de-emphasize the importance of James and Sirius in each others' lives to make the ship work, including outright giving their roles away, ex. someone else being the only person who can rein James in, Sirius running away to [name here] instead of to James. James and Sirius make each other more themselves, for better and for worse, and I honestly believe that they believe it's always for the better: They embrace each other's strengths and weaknesses, love each other for their flaws instead of despite them, support each other even after death (if the memory of James wasn't instrumental in Sirius surviving Azkaban, I'll eat my nonexistent hat). Sirius has so much devotion to James, enough to eat rats and face death for James' son, his godson, who he had a year of knowing before it all went to hell, that I find it hard to believe he had much room for anyone else; and from what we see, that devotion was absolutely reciprocated. Even after marrying Lily, even after Harry, JamesandSirius were such a thing that James' own wife writes to Sirius to say my husband is down and only you can make him feel better, not his wife or child or other friends. They would have buried bodies for each other, and I'd be surprised if that didn't actually happen off-page. What we see of their past makes it clear that they existed together in some rarefied space that would have absolutely continued regardless of who they dated or who they married or where they wound up. I'll always be a little sad that we didn't get more of these two in canon, and I'll always be equal parts frustrated and bewildered that these two are not the Marauder ship, or at least a much much more popular ship than they are.

Over time, the popular depictions of James and Sirius grew increasingly incompatible with the way I saw them, which is generally closer to canon: James is not an idiot jock or an indiscriminate bully (he's very discriminate, thank you) or an abuser, Sirius is not an idiot sex addict or peer-pressured by James into bullying (he's absolutely an active bully of Snape & Co) or there solely to fawn over Remus. This is also where I started to dislike Remus, sorry Remus fans, neither uwu softboi Remus and uberdom alpha Remus are my jam I eventually fell out of fandom in general and didn't think more than the occasional wistful thought until I re-read the books and had that Prongsfoot flame reignited, enough that I started to read HP fic and even write/post stuff again. I'm endlessly grateful for the authors who put such wonderful work out there, and for people who cultivate this little pocket of a fandom that's otherwise become alien to me, as someone who just doesn't get much of New Marauder Fandom and its ATYD influences.

James and Sirius are soulmates and friends-to-lovers and fluff and angst and boyish exuberance and the uncertainty of growing up, they're knowing you're meant to spend your lives together and struggling to exist when your other half is gone, they're sweet domesticity and the darkness of war and Good vs Evil and all the shades of gray, they're loving someone relentlessly and instinctively and maybe unwisely but knowing it's 100% reciprocated, no-strings-attached, because you can't be any other way and wouldn't change that (or them) if you could. There's just so many ways to explore Prongsfoot and all of it works because these boys contain multitudes, and I just want to gather all of it around me like a nesting squirrel and snuggle down amidst the Prongsfoot goodness.