#poc led films

[jasmancer]

BLACK PUNK CRASH COURSE!!!

BLACK PUNK OGS

Death

X-Ray Spex

Bad Brains

Pure Hell

Fishbone

MODERN BLACK PUNK ARTISTS

Ho99o9

The Muslims

Pleasure Venom

Fuck U Pay Us

Big Joanie

Nova Twins

MORE NAMES TO KNOW

Tina Bell: frontwoman of the band Bam Bam, often called the Godmother of grunge because of its influence. Racism within the scene has led to her influence being pretty extensively erased but her bandmate and lifelong friend Scotty Buttocks has been working hard to counteract that by doing press and preserving their music here. Kurt fucking Cobain was their roadie

Betty Davis: 70s funk rock legend who just recently passed away. Incredibly unique performer that was way ahead of her time. Not to be confused with Bette Davis.

Sistah Grrrl Riots: A black punk collective put together in response to alienation and racism in the 90s punk and riot grrrl scenes. Organized by legends Tamar-Kali Brown, Honeychild Coleman, Maya Glick, and Simi Stone. You can read more about sistah grrrl in this article.

Ronnie Spector: Frontwoman of the Ronettes and rock n roll pioneer. Black girl groups were a huge influence on the sound of Rock n Roll as we know it from The Beatles to Led Zepplin to the Rolling Stones. She recently passed but her autobiography came out last year and it's worth the read.

READ A FUCKING BOOK

Black Diamond Queens: African American Women and Rock and Roll by Maureen Mahon

Rip It Up: The Black Experience in Rock N Roll by Kandia Crazy Horse (Anthology)

Shotgun Seamstress Zine Anthology by Osa Atoe

BONUS LINKS

POC Zine Project @poczineproject

Maya Glick's Storm fan film RAIN

Black Women in Rock Archive

IMDb for the documentary Afro-Punk (2003) currently not available for streaming in the US

[detectivejay]

Detective/Mystery Media List

Open to more recommendations if I’m missing any favorites I should check out, let me know! Particularly any other good Sherlock adaptations, but also interested in finding more female, PoC and/or queer-led detective media.

Watched/read/played/etc:

Sherlock Holmes (ACD canon)

Sherlock - Basil Rathbone adaptation film series

Sherlock - Granada, Jeremy Brett adaptation TV series (some episodes, need to rewatch) - shoutout to @thegreatandlovablespacedorito for reminding me to revisit this one

BBC Sherlock TV series

Sherlock - Robert Downey Jr movies

Enola Holmes (movies)

Moriarty the Patriot/Yuumori (manga and anime)

Ron Kamanohashi: Deranged Detective/Forbidden Deductions aka RKDD (anime, need to read the manga)

Hercule Poirot novels (not all but a large portion) - need to watch more of the TV show Spenser novels by Robert B Parker (not all but a large portion)

Auguste C Dupin - The Purloined Letter by Edgar Allan Poe (short story)

The Maltese Falcon by Dashiell Hammett (book)

The Big Sleep by Raymond Chandler (book)

Case Closed / Detective Conan (anime, some episodes/seasons)

Knives Out movies

Psych TV series

Only Murders in the Building TV series (caught up to the current season)

The Dresden Files books

Brookyln 99 TV series

House MD TV series

True Detective TV series

Monk TV series (watched some episodes)

Murder She Wrote (a few scattered episodes)

Hannibal TV series

Bones TV series (some episodes, not all)

Fargo movie and TV series (watched some episodes)

White Collar TV series

Justified TV series

Miami Vice TV series

Nash Bridges TV series

Killing Eve TV series

The Clue movie

Anita Blake book series (up to book 10)

Some Nancy Drew books

Ace Attorney video games (AA1-AA6 plus Investigations 1)

Professor Layton video games (not all but I believe at least the first 3)

Sherlock Hound

The Great Mouse Detective

Sherlock Holmes in the 22nd Century

Inspector Gadget cartoon

Scooby Doo cartoons

The Boxcar Children

Detective Pikachu movie

The Case Study of Vanitas (anime/manga)

The Millionaire Detective - Balance: Unlimited (anime) - @prapo237 got me into this one x3 so silly

Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency (read years ago, need to watch the show) - recommended by @holisticcomedian

Currently watching/reading/playing/etc:

Sherlock - Elementary TV series (on 2nd season, getting close to season 3)

The Invisible Library novel series by Genevieve Cogman recommended by a friend IRL - up to book 6 currently, The Secret Chapter

The Great Ace Attorney Chronicles (video game duology, includes Herlock Sholmes, almost finished with game 1)

Ace Attorney Investigations 2 (video game)

Persona 5 (video game) recommended by friends on the JR Discord

Sherlock Holmes and Co - podcast (currently listening to The Dancing Men Part 3, thanks to suggestions from @wasabitheweirdo and @cuil-chan)

To watch/read/play/etc:

My Dear Detective: Mitsuko’s Case Files manga suggested on the JR Discord

Detective L - Chinese Sherlock-inspired TV series on Youtube recommended by @meg-pond

Miss Sherlock - Japanese series also suggested by @meg-pond

Bodkin TV series on Netflix - Irish, female-led, recommended by @rubycountess

Columbo TV series

Remington Steele

Murder on the Orient Express movie

The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes film

Bonnie MacBird Sherlock Holmes books recommended by @romanathree

Soviet made Sherlock Holmes film recommended by @imlostatau on Youtube

Famous Five books

Midsomer Murders TV series

Twin Peaks TV series

Mindhunter TV series

Murdoch Mysteries TV series

Death in Paradise TV series

Phryne Fisher's murder mysteries books and TV show recommended by @milenathebrave

Turner and Hooch TV series

Magnum PI TV series

Father Brown TV series

The Professionals movie

Homeland TV series

Cadfael TV series

Broadchurch TV series

Criminal Minds TV series

Shetland TV series

Police procedural shows like NCIS, CSI, etc.

Baskerville play by Ken Ludwig suggested by @wolfyraged

Without a Clue suggested by @helloliriels

Young Sherlock suggested by @helloliriels

Vera Stanhope novels by Ann Cleeves suggested by @nightshadezombie

Charlotte Holmes books by Sherry Thomas suggested by @lej418

Sherlock Holmes stories by Anthony Horowitz ("House Of Silk" and "Moriarty") recommended by @bringerofworlds

Miss Marple novels by Agatha Christie

Any other Agatha Christie novels I haven’t read (Sad Cypress recommended by @romanathree )

AJ Raffles books by William Hornung recommended by @romanathree

Dead Boy Detectives on Netflix

The Hardy Boys books and TV series

Elemental Masters by Mercedes Lackey

Holmes, Marple and Poe by James Patterson - curious to see how this book treats these original characters inspired by the greats, the new characters are Brendan Holmes, Margaret Marple (maybe related to Jane Marple?) and Auguste Poe (takes his first name from Poe’s detective, Auguste Dupin)

The rest of the Dupin stories

The rest of the Raymond Chandler books

More Arsene Lupin stories (including ones vs Herlock Sholmes)

Nero Wolfe novels by Rex Stout

Pet Shop of Horrors anime/manga recommended by @eden-falls

Otherside Picnic recommended by @eden-falls

Lonely Castle in the Mirror recommended by @eden-falls

The Angel of the Crows by Katherine Addison, saw this one posted recently by @seeingteacupsindragons and I'm curious so added it to the list

Magnus Archives horror/thriller mystery podcast recommended by @writingandwritten

EDIT: Last updated 12/2/24

[poemsfor-her]

A GUIDE TO FINDING YOUR OWN STYLE: PART. I Y2K ୨୧ ׅ ۫ 𖹭

The Y2K Era became well-defined by 1997, replacing the Core '90s Era which had been known for its grittier aesthetics such as Grunge. The Spice Girls' single "Wannabe" was released in the U.S. and gained international popularity, leading to a new era in teen pop. Y2K fashion calls back to the biggest trends of the late 90s and early 2000s. It blends the pop culture of the millennium with bright colors and kitschy aesthetics to create an unapologetically maximalist look. One of the key fashion points of the y2k wave are: low raised jeans, crop tops, small handbags and mini skirts. POC POPULARIZED THE STYLE. The fashion icons of the y2k era were Destiny's child, Britney Spears, Paris Hilton and Christina Aguillera.

I. TYPES OF THE Y2K STYLE ୨୧ ׅ ۫ 𖹭

1. CYBERCORE

Y2K (also known as Kaybug or Cybercore) is an aesthetic that was prevalent in popular culture from roughly 1997 to 2004, succeeding the Memphis Design and Grunge eras and overlapping with the McBling, UrBling, Surf Crush, and 2K1 aesthetics. Named after the Year 2000 problem, it is characterized by a distinct aesthetic period, encapsulating fashion, hardware design, music, and furnishings shining with tech optimism—sometimes literally. Some of its aspects include tight leather pants, shiny clothing, silver eye shadow, spiky up-dos, Oakleys, gradients, translucence, and Blobitecture. Most Y2K aesthetics rely on the use of technology and slick futuristic looks, signaling the optimism for the 3rd Millennium or 21st Century. The Y2K Era ended around 2004 and was succeeded by the Frutiger Aero era. This style is full of mostly gray, blue, green and black colors. One artist that i think perfectly describes the cybercore concept are XG in their newest concept photos alongside with AESPA that can sometime miss the concept they mainly do.

2. MCBLING

The McBling aesthetic went into full swing around late 2004 with the release of the movie Mean Girls, the popularization of Myspace, the popularization of emo via Green Day's American Idiot, the phasing-out of 2K1, the iPod becoming a huge status symbol via Apple's silhouette ad campaign, the premieres of Laguna Beach and Lost, and Gwen Stefani starting her solo career, further hastening the end of the Y2K era. McBling was concurrent or overlapped with a number of other 2000s aesthetics, such as UrBling, Surf Crush, 2K7, and Frutiger Aero.This led into the ElectroPop 08/Hipster/Jersey Shore Era, which lasted from about 2008 to 2013. On social media in recent years, the McBling aesthetic has grown in popularity, albeit it is often lumped with or mistaken for the Y2K aesthetic. The colors of this style are: pink, white, silver and gold.

3. DARK Y2K

Instead of lighter and brighter colors, like pinks and pastels, the Dark Y2K aesthetic heavily revolves around colors like black, grey, deep blue, dark purple, and dark green. However, hot pinks are also seen in Dark Y2K fashion. The Dark Y2K visual focuses on freedom and youth, and rebelling. Visuals that are typically seen in the aesthetic are low-rise jeans and belts, with lipgloss and sometimes even glitter eyeshadow. Some of the styles worn could even be viewed as provocative.The 2003 film Thirteen can be seen as an influence to Dark Y2K fashion and visuals, with its main characters wearing cropped tops, low-rise jeans with a noticeable thong, and studded belts. The main characters are also seen rebelling and sneaking out, and getting tongue and bellybutton piercings.

II. MOVIES AND TV SHOWS TO WATCH

1. Y2K

— bratz: the movie

— fast and furious

— clueless

— any bratz content

2. CYBERCORE

— men in black

— the matrix

— charlie's angels

— x-men

— any superhero movie

3. MCBLING

— mean girls

— white chicks

— wild child

— the house bunny

— legally blonde

4. DARK Y2K

— twilight

— jennifers body

— skims

— thirteen

— girl, interrupted

III. SONGS TO LISTEN TO

1. Y2K

— devil - slayyyter

— gimme more - britney spears

— summertime - flo

— sugarcoat - natty

— attention - newjeans

— tokyo drift - teriyaki boyz

2. CYBERCORE

— stereo love - edward maya

— lovefool - the cardigans

— hello kitty - slayyyter

— any hyperpop song

3. MCBLING

— rumors - lindsay lohan

— faboulous - sharpay evans

— he said she said - ashley tisdale

— queencard - gidle

4. DARK Y2K

— all the things she said - t.A.T.u

— bang, bang, bang - soho dolls

— take me away - avril lavinge

— brutal - olivia rodrigo

— no celestial - le sserafim

— teen idle - marina and the diamonds

information provided by aesthethics.wiki

with love, 𝒯

[thetimelordbatgirl]

Welp, they straight up put Blade into indefinite hiatus hell. Saw this coming from all the mess behind the scenes and now announcing filming the next Avengers so they can release it in 2026, but the way MCU just straight up now wants to fuck up POC led films as evident by how Captain America Brave New World is looking to be a Hulk film despite being a Sam Wilson led film and Armor Wars being in unknown status.

[thecsquirrel]

Absolutely happy that Warrior Nun rose from the dead. Great effort all around. (Really hope they bring back Shotgun Mary because I miss her energy.)

As this development bolsters my hope for Willow, there's work to be done. There's no secret that the Warrior Nun campaign got crazy attention and buy-in, and not just from queer folks - who led the charge.

Willow has the base to grow from the og fans who loved that campy ass film and love this show (it me!) and the young folks who fell in love with the whole Willow gang. That's a great loud and lovely base and it needs to be bigger and louder.

But how does one do that without the damn show! Warrior Nun grew because we had a whole season to rewatch, and then folks picked it up. And petty-ass Disney has taken the show off the platform. (Like f*ck them forever for that. Seriously.)

As always the fanfic and the art and the edits keep this whole thing going. Social media fans those flames. Keep up the word of mouth. Sign petitions and harass your friends. Also, harass Disney. Let's get Kasdan and the crew back on board.

Finally, to the youth, piracy is your friend! 🏴‍☠️ I still have all my burned dvds and cds from college. Yes, there are sites (with spamware, blerg), but torrenting is a good way to go. There are good torrent sites and programs like Utorrent.

Download the whole season. Put it on your drive. Share that drive. Burn it to a dvd. Maybe make copies and just hand them out. Whatever it takes. This show needs eyeballs! I truly believe that Disney et al are choosing to deplatform shows because of the WGA strike and residuals, however, the fact that the majority of the canceled/deplatformed shows are Queer-led, Black/POC led, and often have female leads or focused on women is no coincidence. (Male-centered queer shows are not only being renewed, but if they are canceled, they are easily finding new homes. NPH's show is a prime example.) So, yes, the data suggests that there is a bias against shows about queer/lesbian women and nb folks.

Anywho, mount up Team One Braincell aka Questies, and let's do the thing. Maybe Kasdan can stop his placating approach and get pissed off. It worked for Simon Barry, so who knows.

Let's go storm a castle and whatnot!

[radioluminescentoblivion]

Hazbin Hotel: The Corruption of Creativity. Part 2 

1. Continued Discussion (Also Spoilers)

I wanted to continue talking about the problems with the show in part 1, but since this crossed the line between the art and the artist in terms of discussing two different subject matters, it made it rather difficult to try and divide it up. So this goes off from the additional notes I made for the show and transitions into the problems I have outside of it from behind the scenes. This post will go into more about Vivziepop, the community, and her controversies and how this impacts not only the show but her bottom line as well. 

BE WARNED, this will include some serious topics like Sexual Assault, Harassment, Death Threats, Misconduct, and Suicide. Read at your own caution…

2. Angel and Valentino: A tone-deaf understanding of the source material 

I left this part out of the first post because this would be the point where I transitioned into the issues that led me out of the show onto reality. But I’ll still talk about this segment in Episode 4: Masquerade to provide context. In the episode, Vaggie persuades Charlie to be more commanding around the hotel to get things done or in Charlie’s words “aggressively kind” about her being the boss of the hotel, she marches up to Valentino’s studio where Angel Dust is having a sex scene filmed and he gets worried and wants her to leave but she doesn’t listen. She comes across Valentino who has a no-more subtle approach to Charlie’s presence. Valentino resumes the film but Charlie gets in the way and mayhem ensues: this enrages Valentino and prompts him to put out the fire that Charlie caused, leading to an uncomfortable scene where Angel Dust gets abused in his dressing room as Val berates him and reminds him who he belongs to. Afterward, Charlie gets upset and is about to go off on Valentino but Angel Dust intervenes and yells at Charlie to leave. This then transitions to the infamous song “Poison” by Blake Roman. The next scene continues with Angel Dust crashing on Husk’s bar table demanding some hard alcohol to numb the pain.  

When I first watched this scene I could feel the raw potential of how this went out, how despite the show’s pacing still had a slow-burning impact on the viewer to appropriately leave a bad taste in their mouth (no pun intended). You can see and feel the devastating impact laid down on Angel Dust by his abusive boss and with the additional context from the music video Addict where he has his soul sold to Valentino where he gets sexually assaulted and abused, it only makes it more depressing. Angel Dust’s relationship is a horrifying reality that many people in the sex industry face every day which makes it all the worse for marginalized people such as POC, women, LGBTQIA, and all of the above. Sure it’s not the best depiction of an abusive relationship I’ve seen in media, but it does drive the point home, it also makes it more reassuring to see Angel Dust open up his feelings towards Husk, expressing empathy to each other more and even have a song about it with “Loser Baby”. This draws them closer than before and results in Charlie apologizing for her slip-ups with Angel forgiving her. 

Episode 4 is a bittersweet example of when the show goes into a direction differing from the main plot that focuses on the side characters in a way that matters most and builds up on who they are as people and how they might one day be redeemed from being sinners. On its own, the episode is a good case of how the show can work with its stories to display the varied life of Vivziepop’s vision of hell. However, the perspective of the narrative becomes very contradictory when it goes outside the story. 

On December 9th, 2023, a Twitter user and creator known as UninformedArtist posted screenshots from a deleted user account of a storyboard lead from Helluva Boss/storyboard artist from Hazbin Hotel, R2ninjaturtle or Raphielle. R2 has made art centered mostly around Angel Dust and Valentino, sometimes Vox (The TV-headed demon) in non-consenting scenarios and other explicit interactions. And with Vivziepop engaging with R2’s post featuring Vale and Angel in these situations with a lighthearted giggityness to it, creates a huge form of whiplash. 

Now normally if this was an artist outside the Spindle Horse team, I wouldn’t mind this too much and just take this as someone expressing their taboo kinks—that happens a lot. However…this is coming from someone who works on a show that features an abusive sexual relationship that is supposed to be taken seriously. And yet, you have an artist who works on this show who has a kink for sexual assault and abuse and the creator of the show who hired this person is getting all cutesy about it. Are y’all starting to see the red flags here? 

If this was a show that didn’t take itself seriously and wanted to make some edgy humor similar to how Sir Pentious got railed by everybody in the nightclub in episode 6 (which also doesn’t help Viv’s case since these things are supposed to be taken seriously.) But that isn’t the case, it wants to have its cake and eat it too. You want to make this show highlight the dark side of the sex industry, Yet you also make a light joke about rape in the show while having someone who gets turned on by that to work on that same show. This also demolishes the message of the abuse even further when you have R2 and Vivziepop herself getting excited over “Angest” Pins of Angel Dust and Husk being chained to their masters. 

If this still doesn’t seem like a conflict of interest to you for trying to convey the point about sexual assault, abuse, etc. Imagine if I made a story about genocide: I display the horrifying realities of how a marginalized group of people being oppressed by the ruling majority class try everything in their power to kill, erase, displace, and steal from the people they hate so much and want to destroy to the very roots that no one will ever forget in gruesome detail, everyone from friends, family, and enemies are being systemically wiped out by these fascist’s monstrously distorted pursuit of glory. 

Imagine me making all that…but, ✨WE HAVE A NEW MERCH DROP✨ Now you too can get your starving mother holding her dead child in her arms grieving, not only that, I also meme and get excited about someone’s art depicting those same people getting persecuted and ethnically cleansed for sexual gratification, YAAAAAAAAYYYYY!!11 

Do you see how fucked up this is now?

But that’s not even the worst part about it. As more people started to show disgust and concern over this stuff, one of whom was a minor (I won’t say their name for their security you can read the thread yourself) this resulted in R2 saying some pretty fucked up stuff to this minor, using vulgar language directed towards this individual, not even doing the bare minimum of checking the person’s account to see if it was a younger person or not. It still wouldn’t excuse the behavior regardless of age, but this makes it all the worse.  

Now I will give credit where credit is due (which ain’t a lot here) R2 did apologize for their comments made, but it was more of a backhanded response, and when a user pointed out the flaws in this comment, they simply responded: “Stay Mad”. On top of having to victim-blame a minor for being uncomfortable seeing this imagery, Vivziepop herself also chimed in with the victim-blaming, claiming how R2 was “joking” and that “You can’t always know the age of a random Twitter account you’re clowning on”. Even though they had their age on their Twitter account which is wild to me. She also goes on to say they don’t have a lot of influence on the show and that they’re harmless. 

I’m not here to tell viv that R2 should be fired, I don’t think they’re a danger either, and it probably would’ve helped to just block R2 and move on from such gruesome imagery. That being said, that doesn’t excuse someone for sexually harassing a minor or for the creator of a show to double down on it. I hope R2 and Viv can learn from this experience and try to do better. 

I want to be clear here I’m not trying to “cancel” people for having different tastes regardless of how people view it on a personal moral ground. I’m not saying Viv has to fire someone because they think this way, I’m not even saying that you can’t have any moments of nuance about a difficult situation in your own way and cope with it, that’s fine, that’s healthy. What isn’t healthy is sexually harassing people online and begrudgingly victim-blame a minor for coming across this shit. And it doesn’t make your work look genuine when you have someone who works on the storyboards of your show who gets off on the very thing you’re trying to take seriously.  At that point, you’re not trying to make a serious story, you’re making a rape fantasy for someone. This wouldn’t be that big of a deal if this was supposed to be taken at heart as a real issue. 

If this was just this related incident that was the biggest controversy for Vivziepop, I wouldn’t bat too many eyes. But unfortunately, you’ve read the title, you’ve read the warnings, so you know this isn’t where it ends. 

3. SpindleHorse Workplace Misconduct

It’s not any news that allegations of misconduct at SpindleHorse Studios have been buzzing around since Helluva Boss was made into a YouTube series. These allegations have been met with both skepticism as well as a concern as to how things were going behind closed doors at SpindleHorse, but these allegations would grow and become more of a problem when animators who worked on Helluva Boss and Hazbin Hotel spoke out about it, giving their experiences about workplace culture, low wage pay, and fears of speaking out on these issues because of retaliation from Viv, her team or the rabid fanbase. Some of the employees and contractors even spoke out anonymously for fear of getting blacklisted and targeted by the community. That being said, it wasn’t always a nightmare for some people who worked at the studio, and some that worked there have mentioned it being a pleasant experience, but I’ll get to that later. All these things plus more are mentioned in a passionfruit article that I’ll link below for a further read. It’s pretty damning. 

But I’ll mention some of the keynotes that are worth mentioning:

Low Pay Wages on Clean-Up Animation

Users like Chai posted on January 5th, 2024 on Twitter how clean-up artists are offered a low pay of 35$ a second of rough animation. Not literal seconds mind you, but $35 a completed animation per second, that’s $1.45 for every 24 frames. For reference, according to ZipRecruiter: The average pay for a work-at-home animation clean-up artist is lower than this with a rate of $29 an hour nationwide

https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Work-From-Home-Animation-Clean-Up-Artist-Salary#Hourly

(this isn’t an exact figure to go by for all clean-up artists nor do I know all the financial ins and outs of animation, so I may be wrong on some math here.) It's not as bad, but it's still low. One freelance animator mentioned that when Helluva Boss was on pause for Hazbin’s production, they had no choice to find another source of income so they had to deal with the low pay and stressful job that ultimately wasn’t even worth it in the end after finishing Hazbin Hotel. While this is nothing new in the animation industry (especially one where it's the most thankless and underpaid job), the wages can vary depending on the project, location, industry, etc it just goes to show that this is a recurring practice within the industry that really needs to change. Be it for animators or artists alike. It’s one thing to make a passion project with your closest friends and partners or people who need an extra buck and aren’t suffering, it’s another to offer up underpaid jobs with slave labor wages and then suddenly make it seem as if desperate people have a “choice” to work or not it's no more unacceptable than those who defend such practices. 

“The job was voluntary, nobody was being forced into taking less money”

This is a sentiment that is brought up a lot by Neylan in the article. I’m well aware that Neylan said they had a fixed budget and had to lock the budget to adapt rates for things to work out. Now I could understand this being something for newbies getting into work for the animation industry for a first-time experience, but to make it seem like this was a part-time job to work at is baffling to me, especially for something seen as a passion project, which to me, is a code word for work for me for free/less money. Not to mention, the notion of “no one is forcing you” is one that is echoed frequently in other abusive industries like the video game industry (despite these people having no other choice to find another job to survive.) 

No Human Resources

As of now, SpindleHorse has no Human Resources or dedicated HR person aside from Neyland himself who performs such tasks as coordinating and firing freelancers and works as the production supervisor at the company. Though he mentions that something they’re hoping to fix in the future. I guess it remains to be seen. 

 Fear of speaking out

It's not a surprise that people become weary when speaking out about their experiences in or out of SpindleHorse. Freelance artists such as Erin Frost wrote in a tweet thread before getting deleted about her experiences at SpindleHorse and her frustrations with people not believing her when being open about the unstable and abusive environment working with Viv and how she got a note sent by one of her lawyers as a scare tactic.

https://ben-the-hyena.tumblr.com/post/699242311996047360 

Artists Ken Cook and Nicholas Jordan also spoke out about the bombardment of harassment from fans. With Ken, making a whole pdf on their circumstances of crediting their work and ideas.

https://www.docdroid.net/zyvFyCb/kens-experience-pdf

The pdf also gives some transparent insight into Vivziepop’s workflow in conceptualizing and executing stories. As well as some horrible accusations against Ken such as grooming and trying to steal viv’s IP of Hazbin Hotel despite clearly stating that wasn’t their intention, on top of gaslighting and bigotry such as transphobia and acephobia. 

I could go on about Vivziepop’s history of manipulative and toxic behavior toward friends and peers, but for the sake of relevance, I wanted to keep it mostly tied around 2018-2024. When viv isn’t directing her venomous ire towards her colleagues that she doesn’t like or agree with, she directs it towards those outside her work/friendspace. 

Kedikatzen is an artist who made a webcomic back in the days of old that is now discontinued. Judging from the discussion, I’ll assume it was around anywhere from 2014-2018, but I’m not sure, Kedi/Katt was not only bullied by viv herself but got harassed by her zealous fans. All Kedi wanted was an apology but never received one, forcing her to delete her personal accounts and avoid the internet for a while before coming back in hopes of starting over, until she heard news of other people speaking out and wanted to also chime back in just to prove this wasn’t an isolated incident. In 2020, Viv was making big accusations of stalking, harm, and threatening to use lawyers against Katt (noticing a pattern?)  All while acting like the victim here when she clearly wasn’t. 

She also explains how Viv went to a con in Georgia at one point and met up with April, a person she had beef with in the past, and when April wanted to clear things up with no hard feelings, resulting in viv to tweet about April “stalking” her which in turn made her rabid fans send death threats to her which she deleted and then made an apology about.

But even when it’s not towards other creators, she’s also had a history of being very defensive towards her critics, often deflecting legit critiques, getting salty about criticism as a concept or critics as people, getting defensive about people just having slight gripes, etc. 

As someone who is a critic myself (I mean you are reading this) it's not surprising that you will come across bad critiques of things and that people will either be trolls or just assholes, but for those that have genuine criticism, viv tends to lump them all together despite saying she thinks the criticism is important for growth when it's obvious that isn’t exactly what she wants. I’ve sent tweets to her at one point calling out these bad takes on criticism, but that was ages ago and unfortunately, I don’t have those tweets on me—sorry y’all.

And now we get to our final and easily one of the most depressing segments of this post, which is the dark side of fandoms and the damage they can cause. 

4. Fanaticism

It goes without saying that the community for vivziepop has garnered some of the most abysmal, delusional, toxic, and manipulative fan base since Steven Universe if not worse. I’ve seen a lot of shitty people in fandoms, but this takes the cake of it being up there with the greats such as: MLP, FNAF, Steven Universe, etc. It’s quite amazing how such a community is so dedicated in all the best and worst ways.

But all jokes aside, the vivziepop community has had a long radioactive history of having the most deranged of fans sick themselves to those they deem less than worthy of respect or decency. So much so that some will even dehumanize others be it in or outside the fandom, and lose their shit over the most trivial of inconsistencies. Obviously, this isn’t supposed to be a sweeping generalization of everyone, just a focus on those who have lost their cool. 

This makes situations all the worse when the leader herself has something unflattering to say to someone she doesn’t like. Viv is known to both intentionally and unintentionally enable her fans to attack people, innocent or not. Now that’s not to say Vivziepop herself is all to blame here, nor does that mean she hasn’t made any… “attempts” to apologize, but it was more just playing the victim card and slapping some backhanded response on it. 

Though this is older she might’ve made more “apologies” over time, so if someone has a more recent example of this, please let me know. 

However, this leads us to the most crucial part of this post which is the story of Shay and how they took their life. 

The document opens with an introduction from a person named Liv who explains the story of how Shay was a young queer neurodivergent fan who got to be part of the community around the days of the Hazbin Hotel pilot, Livestreams, and Huniecast, Shay was a massive fan of Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss that she would collect an abundance of merchandise in support of the show, holding Vivziepop to high praise as a creator. They would also share and like posts from social media to further spread their infatuation with the media. 

Those involved in the screenshots were part of a fan discord server dedicated to HH and HB and shared their love for specific ships like RadioDusk (Alastor and Angel Dust), this ship would be widespread in the server at the time until around the middle of 2023, with new members who had a focus on the HuskerDust ship (Husk and Angel Dust). This new inclusion of members began fueling flames with their support for their ship, creating a resentful environment towards RadioDust fans, this fueled the flames of what would be a digital turf war between ships in the server and the internet at large on different social media sites all from the same community, some bouts of which have been around for quite some time and continue to this day. 

On December 12th, 2023, Shay showed gratitude for an administrator stepping in to stop the barrage of harassment by HuskerDust fans over Shay’s comments on the ship made them uneasy due to the age gap and coerciveness of it. Shay felt that their moments of joy in the community just wasn’t there like the good old days with Ashley, Michael, and Ed, but now it's just resorted to ship wars, with Vivziepop herself partaking in these petty engagements and enabling the toxic mentality of the HuskerDust shippers. But despite all this, they continue to support viv and hold her in high esteem. 

Later in the year, Shay would pay for the ultimate package that was available at the time for early access to Hazbin Hotel ($80 no shipping) to show their support for the show and new cast but felt iffed by the growing pain that would be the HuskerDust shippers on Twitter, this was also between the time of the teaser’s release and trailer’s. As these HuskerDust shippers grew more zealous towards those who had different ship preferences like Shay, it made them step away from their position of being a RadioDust shipper in turn for something more middle ground in not wanting any ship to be on top of another. 

On December 11th, 2023, the conversation between Shay came back again expressing more disheartening feelings about the state of the fandom how they don’t belong anywhere, and how further in the conversation after some downtime, Shay feels out of place and like garbage and that they feel greatly disappointed about Vivziepop’s continued enablement of this mob mentality. 

This would be the same time the HuskerDust ship would be teased on Twitter and Instagram by the voice cast and animators, making an already overloaded community of rabid shippers go even crazier. Shay would continue to spiral into emotional distress. How they felt betrayed by Vivziepop for choosing one side and enabling their behavior, Shay expressed hopelessness and felt sick—this would be the last time they ever posted.

On December 13th, 2023, the Hazbin Hotel trailer dropped with praise from the community, especially with the HuskerDust fans in awe of this post, pushing the envelope further. https://twitter.com/HazbinHotel/status/1734999724397035963 

Eden (the one who took the screenshots) was concerned and tried to reach out to Shay, but made no progress with Shay’s accounts being deactivated, after Shay left the server, Eden followed suit the leading day and tried to contact them, however, it proved to be impossible since they didn’t friend them and sending a message only prompted the discord bot to notify Eden that they couldn’t message Shay since they don’t share servers anymore. Eden did however get in contact with a close friend of Shay’s known as Mari, and since then Mari had ceased supporting Vivziepop’s work after the incident.  

On December 14th, Mari got in contact with Shay’s sister as they expressed their worries of Shay’s attempt at suicide. Further screenshots that are mostly blurred show multiple attempts were made directed to the Hazbin Hotel team to call out such destructive behavior. 

None of them received any response from the team or Vivziepop herself. 

Mari and Shay’s sister would continue to keep in touch with updates on Shay’s condition until 26-27 of December, Shay died from serious gastrointestinal injuries from drinking household cleaning acid, causing her to cough up blood, and having been sent to the hospital on December 13th. The last screenshot messages include Shay’s sister and Mari in grief over the passing of not only a friend but a loved one. 

Liv further explains that they were a HuskerDust shipper at one point, but now feels a deep loathing and regret at such a title, their statements close with sorrow, and urge people to be wary of such dangers a fandom can cause. 

5. Conclusion

I didn’t really have plans on making this deep dive at first, especially seeing how there were a lot of moving elements to this saga, some of which were far too extensive to cover all the controversies, critiques, drama, etc. I wanted to make this as condensed and digestible as possible. Though I realize this wasn’t the best-formatted post, I guarantee this has some issues that can be fixed in the future (assuming anyone gives a shit). 

The point of making this post isn’t to “cancel” Vivziepop, but rather highlight the VERY consistent pattern of egotistical behavior that she has displayed over time, how she intentionally uses manipulative tactics to gain leverage over people and weaponizes her audience against those she disapproves off. Vivienne Medrano has not changed for the better and unless she takes a little self-reflection on her actions, she never will. If her silence on someone taking their life over the consecutive harassment and death threats from HER fans doesn’t ring any bells on how she really views her audience and other people, I don’t know what will. Vivizepop has shown everyone how she has no stability in running a full studio or maintaining a healthy social presence (indie or otherwise) and how she should invest in her personal demons rather than value fictional ones over others. 

If you are a fan of Vivziepop and her work or were on the fence about it before, I hope this provides some clear context as to why she “Gets non-stop hate” and that it would be wise to reconsider your loyalty or support for her at face value. I want this post to be an important message for those who still love Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss, this isn’t about me being a “hater” but someone who wants you to be cautious just like I was when I first heard about these allegations. 

If you’re still not convinced about what I or many, many, many others have been saying for years. Perhaps it would help if I came from a more vulnerable position? (Not the most original but whatever)

When I was first introduced to Vivziepop’s work by my sister, I instantly fell in love with her work with her Die Young fan animation. Since then, I was never the same, and as I mentioned in my last post, I got indulged in her craft and was introduced to not only her community but the furry community as well. I kept tabs on her zoophobia comic and her other works, supporting her along the way. Vivziepop’s style of art and animation greatly influenced me over time and I propped her up as a major influence in my art and I still do to this day. One of my favorite characters of hers was Clarrisa, Fabian’s daughter from Zoophobia (we never saw her in the comic doe). Clarrisa would inspire me to create a character heavily inspired by her called Clair (I’ll more than likely work around the name to not make it as obvious) she was the first character I took seriously in my pursuit of art when I otherwise wouldn’t have cared or taken it seriously before. What started as one concept for a character with a fox based on another person’s character, would spark an entire list of stories with their worlds and characters—and I had Vivziepop to look up to for that. 

But knowing that this is the same person I looked up to as a source of inspiration, leaves a poisonous taste in my mouth that can never be washed off. I no longer support Vivienne now or in future unless she has shown that she is really willing to take major strides to improve herself. As it stands now, she’s left a legacy of pain conflicting with future potential with new creatives. I don’t ask for people to stop loving her work because guess what? I still love her work too in some areas, I just won’t support her anymore. (at least financially or influentially). 

If you are a fan of her work, own it and keep making and loving what you do, draw fanart, make redesigns, have your ships, write fanfictions, etc. Two realities can exist: you can enjoy someone’s work, but also recognize when someone is a massive piece of shit who makes donkey dooky. (Hello Warrior Cats fans).

Shit sun, I’m still making fan art for some zoophobia characters because I still love those characters or their designs, I ain’t special!

“You know, for the longest time I thought you were cool…”

Final Thoughts:

I honestly didn’t expect this uh…rant/analysis? To be this winded, I apologize if there are segments in here that are just a mess, if y’all have any constructive feedback, that would be appreciated. Or maybe I’m just a big meanie that needs to self deletus? Idk, I highly doubt this post will get much attention. I could’ve spent all this time and energy drawing my characters kissing each other or somthin. But here I am, making a totally original post about a creator I’ll never meet. But, if you are a vivziepop fan old or new and you feel like this post has done some justice or resonated with you, then I’m glad! I know there are some really good people in the community who aren’t alone on this and feel the same way, and I understand…I think. 

Anyways. I’ll just leave some sources here and give credit to the people who made these posts linked here, if it wasn’t for them, I wouldn’t really be in this position now to raise awareness on this controversial topic. Please support these people below, don’t harass anyone or be a massive bigot for those I critiqued or featured here, be civil for fuck sakes, and yeah. I hope y’all have a good one.

Rest in Peace Shay- 2003-2023

Sources:

[jordanlihive]

Ooof I'm worried because they have such insanely amazing set up and chemistry plus something literally NO OTHER SHIP has with a bigender character but it seems that they're skipping over all their big moments? And they have time for them the episodes are so short the writers of the boys have done a fantastic jobs developing the friendships/relationships over their 3 seasons but those are different writers and a completely different show also the boys has always been 1 hour long like they never go under 56 minutes so they have more time for that growth. Idk seeing them not show us the night they actually got together and then they're just together? And then you film a scene of them talking about really essential things and then you.. cut it like what are we doing here exactly???

It’s insane how much chemistry Jaz has with London and Derek!! The fact that the main ship is queer and POC but we’re missing those important bits of development due to it being cut or the mind wipe.. certainly a choice.

(Putting the rest under a cut bc this is sorta long!)

I choose to be delusional, however, when it comes to Marie x Jordan.

The other three romantic ships went down. Imo Cate and Andre felt pushed/didn’t flow.. we’re introduced to Luke x Cate being the it couple only for him to die and then we get Andre and Cate fucking.. which I wasn’t surprised over because I feel like that’s something that’s common in media: the main guy dies and then his gf(or wife) and his bestie fuck.. and ofc they’re close because we’re led to believe they’ve always been good friends but then we later find out they’ve been secretly fucking the entire time and had feelings. We all know how that played out.

But regardless I just didn’t find them compelling.

Sam and Emma were cute but realistically I knew deep down it wasn’t gonna work out… and as the episodes progressed I didn’t like how their relationship was just Emma saying “Sam, calm down. Look at me.” She isn’t a pick me girl but that’s what their relationship was starting to give, very much her trying to calm her explosive man.. and I’m not faulting Sam because he’s really been through it and he’s well within his right to want revenge. But what he said to her was nastyyy and I’m just happy that she’s free from that because it was very quickly turning into a toxic ship

Marie x Jordan had a great build up. From rivals and teasing to Jordan fighting Luke for Marie, to them becoming acquaintances and teaming up, becoming friends with sexual tension, to then making out (+some more team up) and lastly Marie saving them.. it’s beautiful, it’s delicious. They’re the only ship to make it past s1… I’m really hoping they give us that development for s2.. more to look forward to at least . They better not drop the ball on them I swearrr bc we ride at dawn

[destinyc1020]

Piggybacking what you said because you are right, take out Glen or Sydney really Any One But you would still make money in the holiday season. One of the film analysts I follow said if Any One But you open in a non holiday season it would be 20mil top since the first opening week was like 8mil. The people didn’t come for Glen or Sydney as shown with Immaculate and Hit Man. Sydney horror movies made 22mil world wide while Tarot and The Stranger made 43mil. Glen Hit Man with all the reviews and press barely had any talk on sm and didn’t even make the number 1 spot on Netflix and it was free. That is why people are really quiet on them right now. The model is different now yet media still want to put everyone in a box. What is annoying is everyone quiet on Z when Challenger is at 95mil right now yet I don’t see any follow up articles like they did Tim.

I agree w/your last sentence Anon. I almost feel like the accomplishments of POC in the film industry are kind of ignored. I don't see any follow-up articles either about the success of "Challengers" or just about Zendaya period.

"Bad Boys: Ride or Die" made a TONNNN of money at the box office, and basically shattered the assumption that films with a predom. black led cast don't "perform well overseas" myth. "Black Panther" also shattered that myth as well, but some like to attribute its success to Marvel and just comic book films in general. But I digress...

I def think the genre of film can make a difference for sure. People love rom-coms or films about romance. But for "Challengers" to do so well with such a fairly low budget, and also relative unknowns (who aren't "cute" I was told lol) is a pretty big testament to Zendaya's star power imo.

[joshualunacreations]

The US and its propaganda arm, Hollywood, have always been anti-Asian. Although opportunities are opening up for Asian actors, the underlying messaging—that divides and hurts Asians—hasn't changed.

Not too long ago, AsAms seemed united in outrage against racism and white-washed casting such as Scarlet Johannsen in Ghost in the Shell, Tilda Swinton in Dr. Strange, or Netflix’s Deathnote. Yet as more projects with AAPI leads and casts were produced, this so-called unity proved to be a lie.

The illusion of AsAm unity fell apart with To All the Boys I Loved Before—which was widely celebrated despite its blatant white-worship. The most recent blow comes from Hulu's The Company You Keep, a U.S. remake of a k-drama that replaced the male love interest with a white man.

Once it seemed like AAPI women were getting roles and being “humanized” (i.e. garnering attention and approval from white men on-screen and off) AAPI with media power were satisfied. It didn't matter that AAPI men were still erased and dehumanized—even in supposedly pro-AAPI projects.

Not only do AAPI with media power not care about the continuing harm against AAPI men, they exacerbate it. When AsAms critique anti-Asian narratives—especially ones erasing or targeting AsAm men like TATBILB—they're gaslit, harassed, censored and even permanently blacklisted.

This is because AsAm media is held hostage by the racist framework of the U.S. government's 1942-43 Mixed Marriage Policy. White men's hierarchy—based on perceived threat levels and receptiveness to white assimilation—still dictates Hollywood narratives.

Research confirms that the MMP persists today. A 2015 study shows how gendered racism leads to severe under-representation of Asian men (and Black women). Whereas monoracial Asian men face significant barriers in dating, a 2014 study shows mixed-white Asians get a "bonus effect."

This is why Hollywood execs know there will be less uproar if monoracial Asian men aren't represented—it's been the status quo for decades. In the few roles made for Asian men, they still fall into two categories: pathetic loser or toxic man/villain. In some cases, both.

The hatred and erasure of Asian men is so deeply embedded that it's led to the widespread erasure of AAPI men as victims of anti-Asian hate crimes in recorded stats and media narratives. AAPI journalists know this, yet continue to do nothing to correct it.

So what's next for AsAm representation? In 2022, Janet Yang became president of the Oscars. She's co-founder of Gold House—an AsAm Hollywood collective—and executive producer of Joy Luck Club, a seminal work bashing Asian men as irredeemable misogynists compared to "good" white men.

Many AsAms like Yang want more of Joy Luck Club and similar stories. Amy Tan, author of JLC, has been pushing for years for a sequel with the original cast. A TV series was optioned in 2017, and as of 2022 a movie sequel is to be written by white male screenwriter, Ron Bass.

Stories like Joy Luck Club aren't just bad media—they're dangerous. Arthur Martunovich randomly hammered three AsAm men to death because he saw a movie depicting Chinese men as abusers and he wanted to "protect Chinese women". There's a high chance that movie was JLC.

Hollywood has figured out it’s easy to make anti-Asian films and stifle criticism by hiring Asian tokens to give stamps of approval. An article from 1986 (40 years ago) about AsAm criticism of racism in Big Trouble in Little China shows there's a history of sowing division among AAPI and using government resources to do it. I understand the allure of the Hollywood dream because I used to believe in it myself. From an early age, all marginalized groups—POC, women, LGBTQ+—are taught to fantasize about how we'll finally be accepted and heal the hurt once we get on a big stage and give an award speech. Having experience in Hollywood as a comic creator, I know how people in power (esp. white men) behave. Their goal is to wear you down until you internalize their bigoted messaging, regurgitate it yourself, and then thank them for it. They hate the word "no." Awards don't matter if the content that gets you there ultimately serves bigoted and harmful purposes. In 2020, I made a test for AAPI media. None of the projects so far have passed. That's by design. We think we’re holding the statue, but really, it’s holding us.

Correction: I just noticed a typo in the comic. Inside the Hollywood sign's letter "Y" I meant to say "non-Asians" not "non-whites." Sorry, it was a lot of drawing and writing, and I got tired 🥴 (Please don’t repost or edit my art. Reblogs are always appreciated.)

If you enjoy my comics, please pledge to my Patreon or donate to my Paypal.

https://twitter.com/Joshua_Luna/status/1134522555744866304 https://patreon.com/joshualuna https://www.paypal.com/paypalme2/JoshuaLunaComics

[themarysuep]

i still hate when people say that the only "good" mcu post endgame films are no way home, gotg vol 3 and deadpool and wolverine as if shang chi, wakanda forever and the marvels don't matter/exist to them. Then again, it's pretty obvious to notice what the latter three films have in common compared to the former 3

Very true. BP is one of MCU's most successful POC/female led projects. But Shang-Chi definitely had pushback. And D&W, GoTG and Spiderman are wayy more popular and spoken about.

[stagbeetleboy]

Re: your military propaganda post, I've noticed another really annoying trend in leftist circles of stuff like the MCU or Top Gun being hand-waved away but then something like Across the Spider-Verse will be decried as, like, copaganda. Which it is largely but the double standard is drawn across very specific and obvious factors. White leftists are holding much less harmful poc-led films to a much higher standard than much more harmful mostly-white films

The fucking copaganda thing is crazy bc they’ll defend Brooklyn 99 with their life, because it’s so “progressive” for having like queer poc cops or whatever. When that’s literally like part of the copaganda. You have Andy Samberg as the face of the show and suddenly it’s ok, but Across the spiderverse is crossing a line.

Like I can list quite a few blatant copagandas, like gotham, grimm, and bones but the thing is I’ve barely heard a peep about those, even when they where still running. Which is the fucking double standard you’re talking about bc they’re white lead and waay more heavy handed with its pro piggy tactics.

Btw before others get defensive about their favs, you can still enjoy all of these things (just be smart about what you’re absorbing). It’s just really fucking weird that spiderverse is a problem bc of an obvious impossible standard for anything minority lead.

[fandomshatepeopleofcolor]

it still pisses me off that oppenheimer is more beloved than the little mermaid. Like the little mermaid and halle bailey deserve better than having to deal with all the misogynoir towards its casting of ariel

So I know this is going to come as a shock... but I don't exactly agree with everything here. specifically the first part.

like granted I have a whole tag on this blog about oppenheimer

but its really a very complicated issue? mostly because I haven't seen the movie and I don't know know much about Oppenheimer (except now that he's Jewish and what I know from his wiki article). Like I went into the anti oppenheimer tag and found a lot of stuff including how antisemitic it is to blame Oppenheimer for the consequences of the bomb. like I'm not sure "beloved" is the right word.

To me its kinda creepy that a director like nolan who doesn't usually put sex scenes put a universally disliked one in this movie

specifically this scene

lets not forget this is a war propaganda film. and I don't know if you've noticed but hollywood is REALLY GOOD at those. (looking at you top gun and top gun maverick)

I think that's the danger with the publics fascination with war, death and true crime tbh. People have this sick fascination with death and destruction. I'm one to talk I love the mcu but to me that's like comic book stuff. I feel though that because the little mermaid is for young girls of color specifically and white girls are so used to being catered to... this struck a nerve. Its kinda like why Barbie is so big right now. white girls of all ages are being catered to AGAIN. But tlm was explicitly a caribbean kingdom filled with PoC and it didn't have sex or glorify white women. in fact that's one of the things that led to so many white girls saying that the actress who played vanessa should have been Ariel instead. (don't believe me? I'll get you receipts).

Like there's something I can't quite articulate about a Jewish man who got into the arms race to drop a war stopping bomb on nazis but then his bomb wasn't needed anymore and it was dropped on civilians on the other side of the world instead.

idk idk I'm just rambling don't look at me.

mod ali

[fearsomeandwretched]

I just could never be bitter about an almost entirely Asian led film sweeping the Oscars whether you think it's deserved or not (which btw I do!) Not with the incredibly incredibly racist history of the Oscars and how snubbed POC are. TWO WOC winning best actress in almost 100 years is a disgrace and I don't see how anybody could take the Academy seriously as a meritocracy

[horizon-verizon]

You are incredibly racist, GRRM himself has said that the closest equivalent of Dorne to the real world is the Moorish influences of Spain, and mentions PALESTINE and Wales as being two other influences. Literally his own words. Even in Game of Thrones, they filmed the Water Garden scenes in the Alcazar of Seville, a beautiful Moorish castle in Spain. That castle was literally built by Muslims and incorporates verses from the Quran and countless traditional Arabic and Islamic architectural elements. Fun fact: Alcázar comes from the Arabic word (al-qasr), meaning fort/castle/palace.

Dorne’s conquest by Nymeria parallels Spain’s conquest by the Moors. Nymeria Martell most obviously can be paralleled with Tariq Ibn Ziyyad, the Muslim Amazigh general hailing from Morocco that led the Muslim conquest of Spain on behalf of the Umayyad Caliphate, by crossing the Mediterranean sea and landing in Gibraltar. According to legend, Tariq Ibn Ziyyad burned his fleet before the Battle of Guadalete to prevent any of his troops from retreating back home. Who else burned their fleets to show commitment to their new conquest ? Nymeria Martell.

GRRM credits the “hot, dry” climate to being similar to that of Spain or Palestine’s, and that the mountains where the stony Dornishmen dwell being the equivalent to Wales. The Sandy Dornishmen are described to dwell in the deserts and along rivers, which is a descriptor that describes so many parts of West Asia (incorrectly called the “Middle East”) and North Africa. GRRM mentions Palestine, which has many streams and a very important river, the River of Jordan, as well as the Naqab region, a desert region of Palestine, therefore drawing parallels from the Sandy Dornishmen to the Palestinians is correct since Palestine is sandy, dusty, and dry. Finally, there’s a Stony Dornishmen, which GRRM equates to Wales.



*EDITED POST* (4/14/24)

I assume that this is the post you are responding to.

We must remember that the rules determining what racial group you are a part of is solely determined by the legal definitions of the created designations of "white", "mestizo", "Black", or whatever said society has created in their past and present. which is why when you travel, you sorta change race or have it "tweaked" to mean something else. In Westeros, there is not such legal, social, etc. concept of race that matches the modern U.S.A or any European definition. If you said Corlys was "Black", it would mean nothing to a Stark.

Race is also different from ethnicity or nationality: you can be Paelstinian Arab but or a Black American but be white passing enough to "become" white. You can be of East Asian descent and have monolids to be racialized as "Asian", but were born and partially raised in Germany (nationality) with the ethnicity of Uyghur. 

Definitions of racism:

(Google) prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized the belief that different races possess distinct characteristics, abilities, or qualities, especially so as to distinguish them as inferior or superior to one another (Merriam Webster) a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

This is from GRRM about "race" in ASoIaF and the Dornish:

Did GRRM ever actually say the words, "stony Dornish men are a completely different ethnic group from sandy or salty" or that "stony vs salty vs sandy Dornish people--apart from the nonDornish peoples' ways of categorizing them--are peoples with very different and maybe opposing customs the reflect in certain "laws" in Dorne"?

For the Martells and Dornishpeople to be PoCs exactly like the PoCs today in real life, there kinda has to be a history of a) the Dornish having been assimilated into Westerosi society/infrastructures and made subordinate to the "white" Westerosi b) actual systematic oppression against the Dornish from the nonDornish, and Dorne has been able to maintain its independence from Westeros pretty much since Westeros' inception. Even after Daeron II married Myriah Martell, the Martells and the Dornish still worked as their own principality rather than a region totally under the control of the Westerosi monarchy. There was no colonization or successful imperialist campaigns on Dorne. Like the Targs, Dorne is "queer" not for skin color nor religion so much as the Rhoynish traditions towards gender equity--at least regarding succession and leadership--and sexuality

I argued for how the Westerosi see the Dornish, which is not like how medieval EUs saw non-Christian Africans or Arabic-speaking Muslims. It is how Anglo Saxon Normans would have seen Spanish/Eu Mediterraneans. Watsonianly. This is a question of who are the people categorizing "race", and how is "race" categorized by those people.

There is tension b/t Stormlanders/Reachmen and the Dornish people (mostly Stony Dornishmen of the north) but it's hardly equivalent to what is known as "race". Not yet. Daeron I's categorization is a beginning, A PRECURSOR. With how Daeron II's subjects rebelled with a strong anti-Dornish sentiment (not enough misogyny [succession rules] & and a persistent sense of having court & office positions "taken" from the "local" nobles) the Otherness indicates a xenophobia but here is no concept of "white" or "PoC" anywhere.

I have also already addressed the whole stony vs salty vs sandy thing HERE and HERE. In both of those posts, I acknowledge that there are Islamic and Arabic inspirations for the creation of Dorne and I still recognize them there. And the Rhoynish (mot the Martells or any Dornish people) are definitely PoC. It's pretty obvious. But Dornish people--including the Martells--while descended from the Rhoynish and Rhoynisheness definitely determine how nonDornish perceive and identify Dornish people, are not racialized as today's PoCs are. They are closer to how Jewish, Spaniards, Mediterranean Europeans, and Southern European Europeans are racialized by Northwestern Europeans.

Those monikers Daeron I gave distinguished them based on appearance alone, hence the beginning of skin-color-race in terms of how much Rhoynish culture and blood mixed with the previous Andal-only people's, more of the Rhoynish cultural influence the more you go south and less when you go north. If you called a Wyl (example of a Dornish house of the north) anything something other than Dornish and just called them a "stony" Dornishman, I think they'd take offense.

Once again, when we see how the concept of race developed from religion to skin color, in Spain, you see that religion was the first way for medieval people to differentiate themselves into "races"--and when they used the word "race", they meant just "people from that region/religion/history", not necessarily people with such looks--more than skin color (though color was sometimes mentioned alongside, to identify, so as to say that this African was "safer").

Then there is the fact that there were intermarriages between Arabic-speaking, Muslims, Africans to be called "Moors" (a word from Christian Europeans of the pale variety, not those peoples) and with Catholic Spaniards. Today, Spain is considered a white European country even with its numerous ethnicities and history of conquest by the Umayyad Caliphate. Dorne, in autonomy and a unit of territory, is like both Wales and Spain. Today, European regions that are considered, racially, white.

Doylistically, while the narrative gets its inspiration from real life PoCs architecture and figures, the fact that Dorne, wherever you go even with the different levels of Rhoynish influence, is an amalgamation of Andal and Rhoynish that still has that Andal Seven/Catholic religion, and the Common tongue (Rhoynish is not spoken by most people in Dorne except the Green blood bc the Red Princes outlawed it) set up universally despite equal primogeniture and tolerance of homosexuality/extramarital sex means that those things that precede race-by-face/skin and then set up the basis for race-of-skin/face (religion, language, customs) does exactly not resemble what happened for the same as real life (again, Spain is not a PoC country in spite of the Umayyad conquest and influence).

Again, to me it felt like they are socially Othered how Jewish and Welsh, Scot, Irish, etc. people are Othered in Europe...not in modern times but in the context of various medieval English regions temporally and geographically. Again, Watsonianly. But there's strong argument for the other. While they are definitely Othered and have PoC inspiration and but they aren't Othered in their world like PoCs are Othered.

Either way, I don't think GRRM is conveying that Rhaegar left Elia specifically because he thought she was racially inferior to himself or wasn't owed respect due to her Dornishness. Which I already argued was untrue in the linked post above for the history that Tags and Martells have. And which was the point of me even bringing up race and Elia, since that was the argument Elia-supporters-Rhaegar-bashers have.

[insanityclause]

Brie Larson has a brain and speaks her mind. As Mulan taught us all over 20 years ago, some men (especially internet dudebros) don't like that.

And since this is a female-led movie with a largely female/POC cast and a female/POC director, a lot of dudebros are predisposed to hate it. They still feel like comics are a boy's club thing. But I'm not worried about it. I plan on seeing it multiple times. My personal feeling is that it'll be the best Marvel film of the year. For Mr, antman lacked direction. Guardians is always kind of meh for me.

Yep.

Female/POC leads and villain; female/POC director.

[mushiver]

I haven't been a movie nerd even ONCE on this account. Here's my top 10 movies in 2023

1. The Lord of the Rings (trilogy)

IT STILL COUNTS AS ONE

Can't go wrong here. There's fantasy, action scenes, friendship, romance, badass dialogue, comedy. There's refreshing masculinity where men are close friends, fight for each other, die for each other, kiss each other on the forehead, sing, etc. The Aragorn Arwen romance is sweet and isn't overblown, and the main theme is to fight for good. If you're tired of anti-heroes and want a clean good vs. evil, this is it. The downside is not having poc representation and only 3 important women, but they are extremely awesome and play pivotal roles. If you've heard about LOTR for forever but never actually seen it, here's your sign.

2. The Lego Movie

This movie sells itself, but I have seen it maybe. 40 times. And I could quote it from start to end as a kid. It's funny, has crossover characters along with the main ones (like Batman, Superman, Gandalf, Abraham Lincoln, Han Solo), lots of references, and the main message is that you're special in your own way. It's very autism coded, I think

3. Jaws

Classic man vs. monster, and it's great if you don't watch thrillers and need something "dip your toes in." While the majority of the town goes all rambo trying to kill the shark, the main characters are the opposite. The chief of police is ultimately empathetic and wants to stop more people from being hurt, Matt Hooper is a shark expert "city boy" coming along, and Quint has a boat that needs to be bigger

4. My Cousin Vinny

Vinny is a lawyer taking a case to prove his cousin didn't murder a clerk, but he's the worst lawyer in existence. He forgot everything he learned in law school, can't stop wearing a leather jacket to court, and his fiancée saves him most times. It has some of the most quotable lines and 10/10 I recommend to Alabamans for the southern jokes

5. Knives Out

A modern "whodunit" mystery that shines the most because it's a comedy. The main character Marta is the only one who thinks she knows what happened, but she pukes every time she tells a lie. Benoit Blanc is also the most iconic detective to me and one of my favorite characters ever

6. Tommy Boy

This has a very similar tone to My Cousin Vinny, but it's a road trip movie. After Tommy's dad dies, he and Richard (a jerk coworker) try to sell autoparts to save his company. They're the worst salesmen in existence, but ultimately are creative and pull some shenanigans (Tommy and Richard go from rivals to buddies). It's from the 90s and not very chill with the r-slur and some fat jokes, but it's ultimately a feel-good movie if that isn't a dealbreaker for you

7. Jurassic Park

Like Jaws, another classic pop culture movie. The score is so good, and they make a world full of dinosaurs have the same magic feel as the wizarding world. It's an adventure movie with great action scenes and characters. (This is a trope I love personally but) Alan Grant is a grump who doesn't like kids, but later he looks after them. Ellie Sattler is one of my favorite characters ever, and Jeff Goldblum lays on a table. Survival movies are fun 10/10

8. Joker (2019)

DROOLING OVER THE CINEMATOGRAPHY. It's such a well-made movie, and you never know entirely what's real with unreliable narrating. It makes you feel for Arthur and understand his actions while knowing he made the wrong decisions in the end. Some think it's negative for mental health representation, but it can be used as a cautionary tale for the ways mentally ill people are mistreated and how the events that led to the start of the film weren't his fault. Ultimately, I think it inspires more empathy, and it's a piece of art

9. Signs

I'm a sucker for the "everything makes sense in the end" trope. A lot of people didn't like the combo of two supernaturals (the existence of God and aliens), but I don't think it ruins the movie. It centers around a family struggling with the death of their mother (or sister or wife, depending on the character), and the ex-priest dad had lost connection with his faith. He happens to find it again because of an alien invasion. Normal Tuesday

10. Arsenic and Old Lace

From 1944, it's a weird movie and the acting is iconic. Mortimer is trying to get to his honeymoon, but when he visits his aunts, he finds a dead body in the house. It's a comedy involving shenanigans, avoiding the police, and an uncle who thinks he's Teddy Roosevelt. (It's a bit outdated as far as mental illness goes, but Mortimer's goal is to put his family in the care of a mental institution rather than shipping them off or telling the police.) As a drama queen, I also appreciate Cary Grant being a drama queen

10 honorable mentions: Lego Batman, Napoleon Dynamite, The Goofy Movie, Clue, Psycho, Marriage Story, Into the Spiderverse, Avengers Endgame, Dead Poets Society, Muder on the Orient Express. Swag thanks for reading