#odysseus the man that you are

[spineless-lobster]

Literally I will never be fucking normal about odysseus or his voice I am actually so down awful for him it’s really embarrassing

“The siren’s blasted song…”

HMGNMMHNGNGNHGNGNHNGNGNHNMGNMG SIR SIR PLEASE SIR PLEASE PLEASE SIR I AM BEGGING SIR PLEASE

[mythology-void]

okay so I was doing a Research™️ about ancient Greek etymology as one does and I found some Things that made me want to Violently Claw My Arms Off please allow me to force feed you my discoveries

So there are 2 words for "not" in ancient Greek, depending on the context: ou and mē. Having introduced himself in the Cyclops episode as " ou tis", or No-man, he then stabs Polyphemus in the eye. When Polyphemus' brothers come to check on him, they say this:

"... surely no man [mē tis] is carrying off your sheep? Surely no man [mē tis] is trying to kill you either by fraud or by force?"

Right after this, after the other cyclopes ditch Polyphemus, Odysseus's inner monologue goes something like this:

"Then they went away, and I laughed inwardly at the success of my clever strategem [metis]." (pronounced mEH-Tis)

Now, there's a difference between mē tis and metis. [mē tis] (pronounced mEH-Tis with a space between the syllables) is the literal translation for "no man". Metis is a word for extreme intelligence/cunning, which is something Odysseus is famous for.

Now, there are several examples of abuse of metis/intelligence in the Odyssey, but I think the juxtaposition between [mē tis], or the concept of anonymity, and metis, or extreme intelligence, is REALLY interesting. Odysseus's adoption of the title "No-man" was characteristic of metis--it was a really smart move that simultaneously hid him from the cyclops and avoided any future consequences. It was a highly effective strategy all wrapped up in a nest little package with a bow on it.

But when he revealed himself as Odysseus of Ithaca, effectively throwing off No-man (anonymity and [mē tis]), that was characterized as idiocy--he's essentially doxxed himself, and now he's doing to (spoiler alert) get tossed around the Mediterranean by Poseidon for the next 10 years.

This is really interesting because it lets you see the parallels/codependency between metis(intelligence) and humility. When Odysseus refused to allow himself to go unnoticed (hubris) he suffered for it. BUT when he declined instant glory/satisfaction (kleos) in order to achieve the long term goal of survival, he was rewarded with Athena's favor (pay attention. This part is important).

And this situation repeats itself MULTIPLE TIMES in the Odyssey--the EXACT SAME THING happens near the end of the book, with the suitors. When. Odysseus is dressed as a beggar and the suitors/Antinious are abusing him, he ACTIVELY CHOOSES not to react--he doesn't stand up and rip off his disguise and start hollering "TIS I, ODYSSEUS OF ITHACA! FEAR MY WRATH"

No. He sits there patiently and waits. He plans and schemes and quietly orchestrates their downfall without alerting them of it. Why? Because he learned his lesson the first time this happened. He buried his rage and adopted what was, according to Grace LA Franz, a more feminine form of metis, weaving a web of destruction for his enemies that ultimately resulted in their total annihilation (see Weaving a Way to Nostos: Odysseus and Feminine Metis in the Odyssey by Grace LaFranz). His patience allowed him to win the whole prize--no questions asked, no 10-year-long-business-trip strings attached--just the sweetness of a full victory. And he is, once again, rewarded with Athena's favor--both in the battle with the suitors and in the aftermath (cleanup/reuniting with Penelope).

This really reinforces the idea in the Odyssey that Odysseus's defining characteristic is not just his intelligence--it's his ability to learn from his mistakes. He used what he learned at the Lotus Eaters Island against Polyphemus--the Lotus Eaters drugged his men, so he drugged Polyphemus. He used what he learned from Circe and Polyphemus against the suitors--Circe used false sweetness and honeyed words to lure his men into a trap, so that's exactly what he did to the suitors. His hubris on Polyphemus' island cost his whole crew their lives, so he intentionally left well enough alone until the right time. He didn't just learn from his failures--he turned them into BATTLE STRATEGY.

i don't care what anyone says that is completely totally and objectively awesome

[nikoisme]

congratulations old man

[dreamsandconstellations]

Tiresias: I see a man who gets to make it home alive but it’s no longer you… I see your wife standing with a man hunting

Odysseus: what if i became the monster.

[backpackingspace]

Okay but have we thought about how scary odysseus interacting with the gods /his knowledge about such things it must have been for his crew?

Its well known that odysseus is Athenas favorite, even before the Trojan war. But what does that look like from the outside? Are their conversations in some other plain? Does odysseus sometimes just glaze over and you just have to trust its a god speaking to him and not aome other fit? Out in the open? During the war odysseus was frequently doing really bizarre things on Athena's say so. Bit you also know your captain is a freak and lier so which is it this time? The gods will or odysseus just tucking with you? There's a little wariness there. But it's well known. And been like this forever.

But then you start encountering more monsters. More gods. They all talk to your captain. Your captain stops sleeping. Your go between for you and the captain starts committing crimes against the captain, starts bad mouthing him. More of your friends have died then in ten years of war. And every other day there's a new god talking to your captain. What mortal man has the interest of this many gods? What mortal man can get up in the gods faces to yell at them. What mortal man has the powers to overcome the witches they encounter the power to over turn gods spells? What mortal man's tongue is so gilded he convinces these powers to help them? And doubt comes creeping in.

[clayfellover]

Eurylochus, where are the sacred cattle?

[raointean]

[official-english-major]

I may have discovered epic the musical, but don't worry guys I'm gonna be so normal about it

(Spoilers in memes below)

[cryptidgaymer]

[gingermintpepper]

I haven't read the Odyssey so I'm asking you. Are you telling me besides Athena, Apollo was the god who helped Odysseus and his family the most? Indirectly at least.

If that's true it's really a missed opportunity in EPIC.

No, no, the god who assists Odysseus the most after Athena is unquestionably Zeus.

Zeus genuinely has no problems with Odysseus and makes it very clear that he finds the man brilliant and would have already had him home and safe if he had his way, but he makes it clear that he's deferring to Poseidon who actually has the problem with Odysseus because, ultimately, the sea is Poseidon's domain and kingdom and Zeus doesn't intend to step on his brother's toes.

(Od. Book 1 trans. Robert Fitzgerald)

I'd definitely give third place to Apollo however. The big bug-bear about Apollo in the Odyssey is just that he's much less tangible than Athena or even Hermes who appears to Odysseus multiple times to help guide him/give him proclamations. His presence is everywhere though; like I've previously mentioned (and like he did with Jason) it's Apollo protecting Odysseus from Poseidon as he sails the sea after Odysseus blinds Polyphemus. It's also Apollo keeping Telemachus safe. His most vital role by far is when Odysseus returns to Ithaca in time for the challenge that will determine the next king. Not only is it a shooting contest whose first hurdle is to string a bow, the challenge itself takes place on a festival day for Apollo. Athena is there with Odysseus and Telemachus physically, but Apollo is looking after them in spirit, sending signs and signals to keep Telemachus especially safe.

(Od. Book 15, Telemachus warns about the state of Odysseus' house to Theoclymenus, a son of one of Apollo's prophets.)

There's also the fact that Odysseus makes sure to pray to Apollo before he attempts to string the bow:

(Od. Book 21. Beggar-Odysseus petitions to shoot his shot)

Likewise, before he slays the first suitor, Odysseus again prays for Apollo's guidance and gaze to guide his arrows:

(Od. Book 22. Odysseus commits the first of many (divinely-sanctioned) murders)

Also, as an additional thing, have Telemachus invoking Zeus, Athena and Apollo that he could see the suitors have their asses beat:

(Od. Book 18. Telemachus excitedly gushes to him mom about his cool new friend (Odysseus. Odysseus is the friend.)

There's a lot of minimisation of Apollo's role in the Odyssey because it isn't as bright and showy as his role was in the Iliad but hey, even there people tend to minimise how truly present Apollo is for the duration of the war when they're doing adaptations. Within Epic, the stage is already more than set for both Apollo and Athena to be there at the advent of Odysseus' revenge but none of that matters if that's not the creator's intention, y'know?

[chengchengj]

''Odysseus cheated on his wife'' My first reaction is: you don't know how to differentiate sex from rape and it's disgusting.

[australet789]

How many times do i have to say Odysseus is my babygirl, meaning he is a pathetic wet man who fucked around and found out so hard he made himself a name out of it

[lyculuscaelus]

The way you can put Odysseus in so many situations like Friends to Lovers, Hurt/Comfort, Hurt/No Comfort, Soulbond, Presumed Dead, Modern AU, Angst, Fluff, etc., literally proves him to be the one living up to his epithet, Odysseus polytropos, aka, the man of many tropes

[clockwork-stars]

Imagine loving your wife so much that after 12 years without seeing her, you would still sacrifice the whole word in the hope to be able to see her again, and you do

[i-dreamed-i-had-a-son]

I KNEW I WASN'T INSANE and maybe this is old news but listen to the part in The Underworld where Odysseus's drowned men are screaming to him, "When does a man become a monster? 558 men who died under your command"--you can hear ATHENA'S PIANO IN THE BACKGROUND because not only is she someone he's lost ("I lost my best friend, my mentor, my mom") their deaths were the direct consequence of Odysseus not listening to her

"This day, you sever your own head..." And the heads of his men with him.

[backpackingspace]

Consider young odysseus and Penelope courting by going on adventures together (committing crimes)