#not just 'anti harassment of people who don't 'deserve' it'

[honestlyvan]

Furthermore, there are people on this site whose hobby is to bully other people.

Like, outright. This thread is a discussion of people like that. They will take any provocation they can get to “prove” that a person is “bad actually”, and that that makes them an acceptable target. Even if the person doing the screenshotting is the most reasonable, well-argued person on the planet, even if they explicitly say “don’t contact this person”, they are not immune to having dipshits in their audiences who will immediately get a righteous high from being able to engage in, as Innuendo Studios called it, the liberal fantasy of putting someone in their place.

And if you’re someone who’s popular, even an ephemeral popularity like being popular on Tumblr, you’re not immune to being a vector for this. It’s flatly the fault of the harassers, yes, and you as an individual can be anti-harassment, absolutely, but the people doing the actual harassing, in your name or as an extension of you do not care about what you think. There are assholes in your audience, and you’re just lucky you’re on a pedestal in their eyes. You are at best a static idol they do their actions in relation to, at worst a source of validation when you lol at someone else’s bathroom being trashed.

By now, the pattern of people talking to themselves (or not -- this same thing can absolutely happen to someone being combative and that doesn’t make being harassed justified, actually) and then suddenly getting inundated with crap from people who were completely outside of the conversational context has been well established. And the people who are doing it are just another kind of belligerent asshat, playing power games.

Along with denying a further vector for harassment, I argue that protecting the identities of pillocks online is a form of giving grace. It’s a form of detaching behaviour from personhood, and engaging in dialogue about attitudes and behaviour as neutrally as possible, which is a good, necessary thing to do to move away from thinking of conflict as something where someone is always in the right and someone else always deserves to be punished for being wrong. You can’t stop people from taking your behaviour personally, and you can’t stop them from going after you personally, but you can choose to try not to do the same.

I'm not going to reply publicly because I'd inevitably get accused of bullying for failing to protect the sender from the consequences of their actions when my followers got a hold of them.

But if you're going to send me a message along the lines of "I like your novel, but I ran it through a filter, and you use too many adverbs, you should consider using less" I hope you know I'm killing you with my mind.

Just mentally holding you underwater until the thrashing stops.

Hope that helps.

[pawberri]

The key problem with "proship vs anti" discourse is that the most extreme versions of each side, the ones who actually bother to identify with these labels, accepted each others worst takes as arguments they had to debate. "Fiction =/= reality" is, in practice, an absurdly reductionist, anti-intellectual, thought-terminating-cliche that dictates we can learn nothing about a person via art and that their fiction reflects no political or moral messaging worthy of critique. In response to this, the "puriteens" who are too young to possibly hope to articulate their discomfort, to untangle their position from what is often real trauma experienced online, simply argue "yes, fiction influences and reflects reality in a 1 to 1 capacity." They, and people who want to use the groundwork they laid to make bad-faith callouts, make bad arguments about how the action of engaging in problematic fiction is on equal ground to real life abuse, or is a clear indicator of interest in real life abuse. Both of these arguments are terrible, but each side seems to radicalize the other further and further into their own brands of anti-intellectual reactionary belief. "Proshippers" become libertarian absolutists about free speech and view all transgression as righteous and alternative and therefore leftist. They gain a reactionary nostalgia for the past, desiring a time when people didn't seem to care about the implications of art. "Antis" become authoritarian and hypervigilant for signs of moral decay, at their worst, willing to align themselves with government bodies that offer carceral solutions to the debate. They are willing to use harassment as a tool of punishment, which then leads to false accusations and a fear of openness that puts people at risk of being triggered via obfuscation. (That said, proshippers also take part in plenty of harassment.)

I will say that I believe both of these movements are equally sensitive to co-opting by right-wing forces. We see the authoritarian tendencies of anti culture in harassment campaigns and even the way Republican law makers co-opt "grooming." The proship/fic crowd has such extreme nostalgia for the past that I often see people align themselves with the cultures of 4chan or other happily right-wing websites. They so heavily reject the idea that a drawn sexual depiction of a child could reflect any desire that they are disinterested in analyzing what the motivation behind the depiction is. i.e If we track the history of lolicon in Japan we do find that is, yes, countercultural, but that counter culture is right wing, very misogynistic, and defensive of patriarchial Japanese culture as it is and was including its culture around rape and abuse. Plenty of fictional content works as radicalization material, and radicalization material needs to be ambiguous. There is a valid reason to be hesitant to trust people who consume this content, even if I do not believe most of them will ever be dangerous towards children. The mere presence of sexuality is not enough to make a movement left wing. This kind of thing can again be seen in right-wing libertarian movements in the US. (And even leftist movements can be bigoted and even "pro-pedophilia" or otherwise disinterested in social reform around abuse.)

Is all content with elements of age-play this way? No. But to me, that is why kink media deserves to be treated as art and analyzed, critiqued, treated seriously. It doesn't have to do anything to anyone to be worthy of a moral critique. Said moral critique just doesn't warrant harassment and cruelty and reactionary exaggerations of the person consuming said content.

Anyway, what's my point in saying all this? I don't know. I'm just begging you to tag your God damn content with specific tags instead of random and nebulous shit like "dead dove" or "dark content", and also begging you to stop harassing people who do tag their content so I don't have to guess what "dead dove" and "dark content" mean. No one will erase incest kink fics or people who feel sickened by the idea of them off this earth because we aren't god, but we could at least all be responsible about tagging, flagging, and age-gating our stuff.

[chengfagshi]

Kind of upsetting to see "Proship", a simple and easy to understand term, constantly having its definition changed by people who are......not proship.

"Proship means you like loli and shota." Try again.

"Proship means you're a pedophile." Try again.

"People proship because they make the character they are closest to more relatable" ....????? Try again????

Proship is just not harassing people over fiction. That's literally it. Anti-harassment. Not all proshippers are lolisho. Some are even grossed out by it too. But proshippers realize it's all fucking fiction and if they're uncomfortable by it, they'll block the person and move on with their lives (aka being a normal, decent human being). Not start a harassment campaign against that person and try to ruin their lives. If you don't know what proship means, LOOK. IT. UP. Don't hear the "definition" from antis who try to make proshippers look bad. Also if you're just gonna say "well lolicons deserve to be harassed", save it. No they don't. If that's how you feel. Stay the fuck offline forever and work on becoming a decent person. Hope this helps.

[witheredoffherwitch]

Y'ALL CAN EXCUSE RACISM?

Let's get one thing straight: I have no part in this chaotic mess (infact, I have blocked all the accounts mentioned below), but it's grinding my gears how it's devolving into another petty fanfic drama: case 607. I know this drama is getting the attention for certain individuals who are demonstrating mean girl behaviour and gossiping about other writers behind their backs. However, I am solely focused on addressing the racist and discriminatory remarks made by these individuals in the leaked text messages.

For those not in the loop, there's been a huge drama in the fanfic community involving leaked text messages from a group chat of four prominent members. In these messages, two users - Fae and Bel - have admitted to sending hate anons and talking smack about other writers behind their backs. Two other members left the group after it was revealed that B tried to make amends with someone who these two, Em and Ange, don't particularly care for. As a move to clear their names, Em exposed all the texts, trying to prove that Fae and Bel are the real villains here.

But wait, there's more! In these same chats, Bel not only mocked fellow non-English speakers but also bragged about sending rat emojis to an 18-year-old Pakistani writer who was already receiving racist anons. While everyone is focused on getting back at these two women for being shady af, it's mind-boggling how Em and Ange are suddenly jumping on the anti-racism train.

These two ladies stayed in the same chat as a fellow Pakistani writer was driven away because of racism, knowing full well that one of their own was contributing to it, and said NOTHING! Zero discouragement, no condemnation - they only hopped off when things got personal.

So here it is… I've had it with all of you hypocrites. You praise and encourage these women at every turn, feeding their egos like they're the second coming of Beyonce. But let's not forget who's always stirring up drama in this fandom - hint: it's these same people with a sense of entitlement the size of a planet. The issue is groupthink and y'all have all jumped on the bandwagon. You're worse than HBO's marketing department because just like their shitty teams, everyone involved here SUCKS ASS. You don't have to pick a side because they are all petty, mean losers. Bel and Fae are facing the consequences of their actions, which they rightfully deserve.

However, Em's exposé on Bel's racism seems more like an opportunistic move and it's disappointing that so many of you are supporting it. It's a predictable cycle now; there will be a half-hearted apology, an announcement of a hiatus, and then tons of people will flock to their inboxes to shower them with praise and excuses. It's ridiculous! I know there are many who feel the same way as me but are afraid to speak up because they don't want to upset the "village elders" and risk losing their connections and engagements. It's a joke atp!

Instead of taking responsibility for their own wrongdoings, they will come up with a list of 10 different cyber crimes by others to divert attention from their own nonsense. These very same women have confessed to creating multiple fake accounts, secretly stalking servers without mods noticing, and constantly harassing individuals through anon messages.

Yet, we are supposed to consider them as examples of moral integrity and ethical behavior? 😒

[darksou07]

Endogenic systems are plural. They do exist. They don't deserve to be harassed and ignored.

We don't need medical proof that we experience plurality because it doesn't have to be a disorder nor a illness. Being plural just means there is more than one person habitating the body/mind/brain and these experiences deserve to be heard, accepted and understood.

If you are alterhuman and identify as anti-endo, stop and think about all the others who are part of this community you claim to be a part of. Do any other identity requires medical proof? No? Then what makes you think you can call yourself alterhuman and put yourself along with others who you antagonize?

Endogenic systems are part of the alterhuman community and always have been. You cannot exclude a whole part of it just because you don't like them. That's not how this works. They have been part of alterhumanity way before you came along. You either deal with it or stop putting yourself in a community that was made for them as well. You're not welcome if you just want to make a part of it your enemies.

A biphobic person cannot call themselves supportive of the LGBT+ rights even if they happen to be lesbians or gays. A transphobic LGB person cannot claim the same since their own rights came from the blood of the people who belong to the T part of the community.

You also cannot call yourself alterhuman if you erase a group that is and always has been part of it. Do all of us a favor and go hide with the other sysmeds. Leave the alterhuman community alone. We do not hate endogenic systems here and never will call them fakers. If you do, you do not belong here.

Leave our tags, leave our spaces.

[emperor-kumquat]

Fandom, WTF

It's not just X; it could happen here too. My fucking god, a Transformers YouTuber almost did the unspeakable last night because of cyberbullying. Because people who claim they are being heroic are doing such terrible things. And they do it so damn fast.

(The YouTuber is more stable and safe at the moment)

You don't need to know the exact details, but the person made a post on X that was a little iffy. Not discriminatory to anyone, not an inappropriate picture or anything. The kind of thing that SHOULD have led to a discussion to change his opinion. And that's what the some other YouTubers and I did, we talked to him, and he regretted his words and changed his mind. Just like that. So fucking easy.

He wanted to write an apology and tell everyone he understood the issue now, but he was struggling to. His account was reported and suspended over and over. In the end, he did manage to write that apology on X and tell people he changed his opinion. That kind of thing can happen when we act patiently and try to guide people! But before then, other people were DMing him madly on Discord and X to say horrible shit, show gore, tell him to die. People were photoshopping a convicted criminal's face onto his profile pic. Friends severed ties without even talking to him. People doxxed him and someone left him a threatening phone call.

These people probably loved the excuse to do it. They would happily slap a label on someone then act dramatic about it. They pile on the hate because "that creator deserves it", they think.

How can you do any of the above and think you are a good person??

What on Earth happened to giving people the benefit of the doubt? Out of all the ways a statement could be interpreted, why do people choose the most negative instead of the most positive? When drama hits and your friend is involved, how can you leave without at least hearing the other side of the story? How can you forget that you may be harassing someone who has mental health or is neurodivergent?

It's like people love being mad. They want to put a bad label on someone, like some kind of "_ist", "_phobe", or a "p*do". They don't need much evidence before attacking. Here on Tumblr a while back, some people very eagerly wanted to harass me. They called me transphobic. The reality they didn't care to find out: I am trans, I make trans activist videos, I go on the front lines countering anti-trans protests in Canada while getting screamed at by conservatives for hours. Get real. If you are so quick to hate someone and label them, you were probably just eager to misinterpret anything they said to get a chance to be angry. You don't know them and you are not a sensible, fair person. They act like a pack of wolves if they can tell themselves it's justified. It is NOT justified. They should be ashamed. They are just bullies hiding behind a hero’s mask.

[olderthannetfic]

Holy fucking shit. An anti just doxxed a bunch of minors on TikTok. Because those minors where on a Discord server for proships, along some adults too. Like deadass posted SELFIES of the minors --selfies this shit head got GROOMING the minors, making them TRUSTING them to share selfies. And people liking and celebrating this... are saying pretty predatory fucking shit like "the owner (of the Discord server, who's 15) is cute!". Uh-huh. How comes this is not predator behaviour, eh? Scumbags.

Another fucking incident with minor victims and the perpetrators are self proclaimed antis. As a recurrent commenter on your blog said, yeah, those pieces of shit don't have morals, they just have teams. Clearly grooming is O.K. if those minors are ~icky proshitters~ and deserve the harassment of sickos.

--

[massiveladycat]

blue: pjo mention red: legendborn cycle mention black: jst in general i honestly don't care much about the shipping portion of books. like, pjo; there are a lot of other interesting plot points than ships and pjo's never been just about romance yk? it's about so many other things. sometimes, shipping ruins shit for a fandom, especially when people are out here harassing people for harmless ships. when i say harmless ships, i mean ships that don't have pedophilia, zoophilia, incest, and more. scarily enough, there are plenty of ships like that I'm gonna choose not to tag or comment because lowkey interacting with people who scream at you for not liking their ship is something way too common in the fandom. also, legendborn. this book series has a lot going for it (if it can get better after bloodmarked..) but i see a lot of people only focusing on the shipping portion which is very strange to me. this book is about representation and ancestry and finding your roots, not about which boy bree should kiss. i mean, is the romance cute? sure. but let's stop shoving aside the actual plot for it also, mind you, the amount of people i've seen getting attacked for not being a big fan of canon ships is insane. some people think canon is some kind of holy grail, and that changing it is akin to sacrilege and I just do not get it. why does canon matter if some guy says “I’d prefer it to be like this”, and it's still an innocent ship? it’s just an excuse for people who clearly need to go outside to say “uhm actually you’re having fun wrong 🤓, leave this fandom now, you don't deserve to be here”. but also, mind you, if someone makes an anti post of your favorite ship or character /or/ a pro post of your least favorite, stop going after them. damn. scroll past. even block them if you want. it's not difficult. people are entitled to their own opinions and they can choose for themselves what characters they like and dont like. would you like to be attacked for liking/disliking a character? of course not. literally no one wants to wake up to that. TL;DR: sometimes, shipping can ruin a fandom, especially when people harass people over it, and canon doesn't have to be followed, and sometimes anti/pro really isn't that deep when it comes to book characters

[myfandomrealitea]

Was your Safe Spaces post discord-(or any closed forum I guess) specific, or do you think the same should go for fandom-themed blogs on tumblr? Like, if I follow someone for Doctor Who content, I'd rather they didn't put real world issues on my dash, but otoh, it's their blog and they get to decide what they post on it (preferably tagged so I can curate). I've observed that people that run themed blogs that become popular often seem to feel an obligation to use their platform for activism (or, in the case of crypto-radfems, deliberately built their platform to recruit), and it stresses tf out of me for the reasons you mentioned, but it's not like the maintags are much safer because there will be spam relating to real-world issues, or antis trying to relate fiction to real world issues.

Realistically; the same outlook can and could be applied to any social setting. Be it online, private, public, face to face, ect.

Your point about obligation in terms of platform scale is something I've also noticed and have been dabbling about raising. Mostly because you see it a lot with celebrities or public content creators who receive a large following. Its often less that they feel obligated and more than they're usually bullied into it.

For example; I follow a trans (FTM) vlogger on Instagram. His entire online presence is based around being trans and helping to educate people and support people in regards to learning about being transgender, transgender health, his personal transitional journey, ect.

He's got a modest following, nothing ridiculous but I think right now he's sitting at around 75,000 followers.

And as of late, there are random people who don't follow him and aren't at all interested in what he has to say flooding his comment section with things like:

Why didn't you mention anything about Gaza?

All these followers and no shout outs for smaller creators?

What are you doing to raise awareness for X?

All these views could've been used to raise awareness for X.

And its fucking ridiculous. People are pressuring a middle class trans man with 75,000 followers to accept responsibility for counter-responding to a literal war when there are actual celebrities and billionaires with both the actual reach and money to make a difference who simply refuse to because they won't personally benefit from it.

I used to run a really popular fandom blog here on Tumblr. For an actual fandom, not just what I do here and now. It started off small, but I eventually grew it to the point where my follow count was creeping toward 10,000. Which for Tumblr and for a fandom-specific blog was not at all insignificant.

And the moment my notes count started going up, the demands started flooding in. People expecting me to reblog their donation links, demanding I share their friend's aid post, asking why I wasn't reblogging awareness posts or donation drives, ect.

Its largely because its easier to harass accessible people over it than it is to harass someone like Kim Kardashian, but its also because again: we have such a skewed understanding of what is actually effective in terms of activism and circulation of information.

Most of it comes down to shaming people and trying to assert that they're a bad person for having the privilege and benefits of a large following but not doing anything for other people or to 'deserve' that following. They're 'a bad person' for having 75,000 people's attention and not using it to force them to be aware of X.

A good example of proper audience targeting and activism is the page We Rate Dogs.

We Rate Dogs will share awareness posts and donation drives.

About dogs.

Because their followers are there for the dogs. Their followers like dogs. They want to enjoy dog content and help dogs.

If they started sharing posts about war and death and rape, the people who are following them to see cute dog videos will simply unfollow them.

They're using their targeted platform properly.

[spaceorphan18]

Okay, some Glee discourse, because it's been a while ::

@lilacdaisyrose mentioned in a comment :: I’m so shocked that Ryan Murphy actually revealed that!! Also, I’ve always wondered (sorry kinda related), at the time was Adam quite a big thing in the Klaine fandom? To me I find Adam so confusing because there’s so little character development and I always wish there was even a bit more, but also wonder why they introduced him if they weren’t going to really add to his character? 🙂

Okay. So. There are a lot of components to this. In order to understand the whole Adam thing, you kind of need to have the context of what was going on within fandom at the time.

The short version (because this deserves it's own psychological thesis piece) is that Kurt Hummel had a huge fan base that had been fractured into many different sub fandom groups, all of them centered around shipping him with different characters. But mostly the big divide was between people who liked Kurt with Blaine and people who didn't.

[This whole sub culture fandom thing is so fascinating, and I really should write up a giant master post about it some day.]

So, we got wind that Adam was coming some time around Christmas (And, I mean, originally his name was Paul, and it was Paul's Peaches. I wonder why that didn't clear Fox Standards and Practices, huh.) And so the Anti-Blaine Kurt Stans got a hold of this info and just raaaan with it. Like, it did not matter who he was or what kind of character he was -- he was not Blaine and that's ALL that mattered.

So, Adam became a thing before he was even a thing.

A couple of things happened, though. First of all, like usual and typical, the Klaine fans (and I mean, I'm not even getting into the sub culture of Klaine fan divides either, because that is another post) began harassing everyone - including the actor, which, you know, made him a little cold (understandably). He did one interview attempting to insinuate that his role was important, but it definitely bristled and I don't think it was his best PR move, but that was lower compared to all the rest of the nonsense going on.

The big thing that happened was that Adam's first song -- the remix of Baby, Got Back, was tied up in some legal issues. Basically, Ryan Murphy used the mix without crediting or even asking the person who mixed it if they could use it. Now, they got permission from Sir Mix A Lot (or whomever did that song originally) but then it got into some weird legal gray area stuff, and blew up in the media and left a bad taste in everyone's mouth. So the general audience soured on him pretty quickly.

On top of that -- there was a shit ton of stuff going on BTS -- Cory's addiction was becoming a problem, the network wanted to kill the show, the tinhatters were driving Chris to murder, like there are a bunch of layers of stuff going on that made all this complicated, and it all kind of results in Season 4 just being wonky on a lot of levels.

(Btw - do Kevin and Jenna talk about Adam at all? I haven't listened to the podcast in a long, long while, so I don't know, but my curiosity is piqued.)

But during that time, this was when the Glee cast was finally beginning to set some boundaries concerning social media, but Ryan Murphy was beginning to try to use it -- and he kept getting himself involved in fandom, and flying a little too closely to the sun. I do think Klaine was always where he wanted to go (because the actors (mostly Chris) did complain -- which, again deserves it's own post). But they were loud, and they were obnoxious about it.

No, Klaine fans did not like Adam. At all. They wanted him gone, and we wanted reconciliation. But the Anti-Blaine Kurt stans made Adam the measure of who Kurt's bf should be. They did not really care that Adam only had three episodes and very zero development and was clearly dropped like a hot potato because it's obvious Kurt still has feelings for Blaine because, you know, Kurt's sleeping with Blaine while this whole dating Adam is going on but...

It was just a mess.

The other thing you have to remember is that -- while this was live, we didn't get the chance to just watch quickly in succession and go onto the same thing. Those of us who were spoiled knew of this character for months before he appeared. And it was a whole fucking long time before Love Love Love finally closed the door on it officially. So while he was only around for those three episodes, the open endedness of it last a LOOOOONG time. And no one knew what was going on.

So the shipping wars, as usual, continued on and on and on.

I'm trying to think if I at all answered your question, lol.

Why did they create him? the tl;dr version is that since Season 3, they had Klaine (the now b-couple) mirror Finchel (the a-couple) -- prior to that Finchel was the b-couple and Wemma the a-couple, and Glee loved to do parallels with them. But Wemma really wasn't a thing much by season 4, and Klaine was much more popular, and my god they just loved having Kurt be Rachel lite sometimes that they're basically telling the same story with both couples.

So, Rachel gets a season long boyfriend only to wind her up with Finn again (only the cory stuff threw a wrench into that). So, clearly, Kurt needed to have one, too. But also -- they needed to have Kurt do something. They weren't going to put Klaine back together until sweeps week, or the finale because that's how network tv paced things back in the day. So Adam was just subpar character development.

I don't know what their original intentions for the character were. I don't know if they knew. I think they had their story up until 4x15 (overall) and then it got rocky because things with Cory were getting weird and it all just fell apart.

I do think, like Darren, the actor playing Adam got a three episode contract, and they wanted to test the audience's reaction. Clearly, it did not go well, and the added legal issues of the song just kind of made them sweep it under the rug all the faster.

Hopefully, some of my rambling made sense.

Maybe at some point in the future, I'll do an expansive history of the Kurt fandom series.

Or y'all can keep asking questions. What ever you'd like to do <3 lol

[badaziraphaletakes]

can you please stop? screenshotting someone else’s post is extremely rude and only makes the fandom a worse place. talk about a bad take you saw, describe how it’s harmful, and vague all you want, but don’t screenshot. i agree that most of these takes are awful but that’s no excuse to do this to people. either confront the person who’s take you don’t like or make your own post. stop screenshotting, please.

Either confront the person who’s take you don’t like or make your own post.

The assumption that I didn’t try that is where you went wrong. I (mod X) started this blog only after I tried many, many times to confront people about their offensive takes directly and it didn’t work. I was subjected to appalling harassment and even bigotry. That’s what happens when you try to engage with someone who’s being offensive.

I had been throwing the idea around for weeks and what finally decided me on starting it was that I found out that I wasn't alone. That the anti-Autistic bias and the ableism and the transphobia and the victim-blaming and the misogyny (and on and on and on) that we kept seeing and being subjected to was ruining our enjoyment of this show. This was bigger than just me.

FTR, most of the takes that are submitted to us (note that I'll be switching between "I" and "we" in this reply depending on the context) don’t have a handle attached to them, but of the few that do include a handle, 99% of the time I have recognized it as someone who I have seen being so bigoted that there was no possible way I could engage with them. We don't confront people directly partly because we don't want to direct people who disagree back to the OP's blog, and partly to keep the mods safe.

You say “do this to people” like this blog is committing some kind of outrage, which is absurd. We are, at worst, being slightly rude (which I think is justified considering sarcasm and humor are one of the only weapons we have to fight back against hate), whereas most of the posts we comment on are outright hateful. They’re the ones “doing this to people”.

We are being far more considerate of the writers’ feelings and their dignity than they ever were of other people’s in the fandom. The takes are not just ‘awful’ (although, that too haha); they are actively harming vulnerable members of the fandom, and, more concerningly, are spreading messages that will poison our views on how we should treat Autistic people, ab*se survivors, and the like in broader society. Quite frankly, the people who are spouting the kind of anti-Autistic/ableist/victim-blaming/otherwise bigoted crap that forms the bulk of the content we feature here deserve to have their posts screenshotted. People who say things like that do not deserve to be handled with kid gloves in response.

(Also I don’t have time to re-type and slightly paraphrase every bad take I see. And if I did, people would throw out “no one is really saying this”. And even if it weren’t for that, I don’t think it’s reasonable or appropriate to expect me to use my time that way.)

Incidentally, nothing is stopping people from messaging/asking us or commenting if they recognize a post as their own, but only one person has ever done that, asking if a post was theirs. I replied that it was, leaving the ball in their court. So far we haven’t heard back from them about the matter, which is fine. But I digress.

As for this blog making the fandom a worse place - even though it’s only a few weeks old, I’ve had an average of two new people a day, every day, tell me how grateful they are I created it and how it makes them feel safe and how it’s the only reason they haven’t left the fandom. I’ve even had multiple people say “I was going to leave the fandom because of that specific post and then your blog called it out and I felt like I wasn’t alone”. So yeah, I'd say screenshotting is important here.

There is a subset of the fandom - many of us Autistic, Disabled, ab*se survivors, GNC, trans, and/or otherwise oppressed - who have been made to feel EXTRAORDINARILY unsafe by the Aziraphale hate (which far, far too often is thinly-veiled hate for some of the aforementioned groups of people) and the truly scary way people double down when we push back against it. So I don’t care if people are annoyed by my sharing a screenshot of their post. Not when this blog has become a safe space for so many people who otherwise would have had Good Omens ruined for them by the bigotry and general hatefulness we keep seeing.

LSS I will not stop building this tiny lil corner of the internet that is the only part of the fandom where many of us feel safe.

I actually made a post addressing almost this exact thing a couple weeks ago; if I can find it, I’ll add it here in a rb.

[max-uhhhh-talks]

It's honestly insane how there are people who ship copiiia and act like the people who don't are the ones creating unsafe spaces in communities.

Ghost is a band that acknowledges the traumas that people have experienced, whether that be through music or speeches on stage. Everyone here knows that everyone has their own things they're going through or have been through. For the most part, the community is general safe and understanding of people who have been through stuff and thus have their reasonable dislikes for certain topics or dynamic portrayals.

That is, until the copiiia antis are the ones who dislike the ship and the amount of people supporting it.

So we're all clear, Copia and Terzo (including primo and secondo) are brothers. Canonically, they are blood related. It's a fact that is crucial to the storyline of the band, and one that should be acknowledged and respected. It's the bare minimum, yeah?

Countless times within the past year and a half, Copia has referred to Nihil as his dad. The movie, within the first like 3 minutes, states outright that Nihil is his father and Sister Imperator is his mother. This means Copia is brothers with Nihils other three children.

So tell me why so many of you support the ship of Copia and Terzo, knowing full well they're blood related brothers? And don't pull the "in my au, they're not" because that's even worse. You acknowledge that they're related in canon, but you do not respect it. You intentionally go out of your way to make an alternate universe in which they are not brothers. And what do you mainly portray within that "au?"

Incest.

Plain and simple, you portray incest in both romantic and sexual ways. And you see nothing wrong with this. Full grown legal adults, drawing, writing, promoting images of incest.

And what do you do when someone says "hey incest is bad?" You try to defend it with your "au." Keyword, try. Because no one with a brain is on board with that "defense."And what about the people who have their own negative experiences with similar subjects? "Not my problem," "just block if you don't want to see it."

So let's get this straight. You come into a fandom, one in which you know everyone has their own personal traumas. You create images or writings of incest, rape, etc. You tag those creations with the standard fandom tag, and then you get mad when people end up seeing it from that standard fandom tag and calling you out on it. You come into a fandom and create an unsafe environment for unsuspecting individuals. And you get mad others call you out?

Your sense of a moral code is so warped, you jump and leap and grasp at any straws you can at an attempt to defend yourself.

Create problematic content, expect to be called out for it. Come into a community in which the band themselves tries to create into a safe space, and post harmful and triggering content, often unfiltered? Expect to be called out. And that's not even mentioning you all, oftentimes adults, harassing people in their inboxes because they said copiiia is incest and bad.

It's baffling, the mental gymnastics you make at an attempt to seem like you're not creating disgusting content. And then to blame the ones saying it's harmful, to say that we're the ones creating an unsafe space? That we're the reason the fandom isn't safe?

There is no word to describe the absurdity within your audacity. And there's unfortunately hardly any saving people like you. You guys don't even deserve well thought out conversations on the matter. If this fandom is unsafe to you and your incest shipping, because people understandably do not want to be seeing any of that while harmlessly scrolling through art of all forms of their favorite characters, I have a suggestion.

Leave. You are unwanted here. You always will be.

[matan4il]

Hey! Anon from the last time here! By "Pro-Palestine Westeners" I was partially referring to all these students from Columbia and MIT who were illegally occupying the school grounds and harassing/hurting the actual Israeli/Jewish/Middle Eastern/the other generally decent students.

I know there's Pro-Palestine people who are actually decent, but all these college students are risking suspension/expulsion/jailtime because they'd rather chant pro-Ha*as slogans rather and listening to news from biased fonts rather than educating themselves on what's really happening. Some people would rather stay in their ivory towers, rather than going outside and touching grass.

I also know there's LGBT+ people in Palestine and other parts of MENA, and all I wish for them is that they live long enough to find a place where to live freely and out of the closet, without suffering persecution from their government.

Hope this clarified at least a little bit my other ask, and sorry it sounded so ambiguous. Finally, let's hope that Eden Golan gets at least in the top 5 at Eurovision 2024, just to spite anyone who booed her.

Hi Nonnie!

Thank you for sending this ask to clarify the previous one, it's what I thought you meant, and I'm glad to hear I wasn't too off.

TBH, as a gay woman myself, with gay Palestinian friends who are a part of my queer community, and whose struggles I know well, that's the first group I thought about as well. Then I thought about the fact that under Hamas law, husbands can rape their wives with impunity. I thought about the way the Christian population (the biggest non-Muslim minority under Palestinian rule) has demographically plummeted in the areas that Israel passed on to Palestinian control as a part of the Oslo accords. I thought about black people, whose ancestors were kidnapped because of the Trans-Saharan (i.e Arab) trade slave, and are still treated as lesser humans because of that (based on their skin color, they are still referred to in Arabic to this day as "Abeed," meaning slaves).

I think this last group, which most people don't even realize exists, deserves a bit more info shared about it:

Pretty sure black activists in the states, who don't know the history (and present) of the Arab slave trade, or the persisting anti-black racism that exists in Palestinian society, have no clue they're being exploited against the same Jewish community, which stood with Martin Luther King Jr. and the civil rights movement, even having some of its members paying with their very lives for this. I hope they wake up and realized they're being used for antisemitic purposes by the same people who enslaved and are still discriminating against some of their people.

But it's funny how the world's activists and human rights defenders seem to ignore the plight of these marginalized Palestinians, isn't it? Almost like, because they're NOT being oppressed by Jews, rather by fellow Palestinians, and can't be used to justify antisemitic rhetoric and action, then they don't count. So much for minority solidarity and intersectionality, right? It doesn't extend to Jews, and it doesn't extend to Palestinians who can't be weaponized against Jews.

Regarding the last bit of your ask, bless you for being hit with Apollo's dodge ball and predicting Eden making it into the top 5, despite every effort made by the jury members of so many countries, the awful people in the audience, and members of fellow delegations. It was magnificent!

Sending you hugs! xoxox

(for all of my updates and ask replies regarding Israel, click here)

[lilietsblog]

just want to contribute a little something to the anti discourse

so for a while now, arguments in favor of making whatever you want have felt kinda incomplete to me. I mean arguing from the principle of "it doesn't actually harm people while harassment definitely does" is fully valid and very true but that's not all there is to it

what does art do? what is good about art? what IS art?

art is a form of thinking

When you create or perceive art, when you engage with art in any way whatsoever, you are inevitably thinking about what is depicted in it. Your brain is making connections. You are gaining new associations. From conscious philosophizing to subconscious info gathering, you get Thoughts about it.

So this is the question then, people who want to ban every icky topic that makes you upset: do you want people to stop thinking about it? Do you want people to not think about sexual assault? Racism? Abusive relationships? Most of the time people encounter the concept of these things, said out loud and defined as such, in art. In real life you can have an abusive relationship for your entire life and have no clue that's what it is. People who do not experience Nasty Shit are almost exclusively taught how to sympathize with people who do by art. (Their friends and family who experience it are frequently too busy trying to survive said nasty shit to do an educational dance for them)

This is why conservative/oppressive political forces dislike art. It's for the same reason they push back on science that doesn't support their narrative: they don't want people getting ideas. They don't want their children to think anything more than what they tell them! That's why they demand everything "icky" be censored and combed out in the name of thinking about children: you wouldn't want your child to have an opinion on a scary, difficult and complicated topic that you didn't teach them, would you?

This is why the nasty icky art that upsets you so much not only deserves to exist, but needs to. "Don't even think about it" is not a workable harm prevention strategy. Imagine an architect about to build a bridge: if you tell them "don't even THINK about the bridge collapsing", would them actually NOT THINKING about it make the bridge more or less likely to collapse? We are all architects of our own behavior. And we all need to spend some time pondering over notebooks full of calculations of what to do so the bridge stands.

You might ask then, why fiction? Why porn? Why not serious philosophical tomes and psychology textbooks? Why disrespect the serious and important topics so? Why should people play with them?

Well, first, because play is essential to mental wellbeing. We all need to unwind and relax, and for most people philosophical tomes and psychology textbooks are just not something they can fit into their limited rest & relaxation time, not without sacrificing more than they gain in terms of ability to control their mood and behavior. People need to play, and if there's a way to get shit done while playing, well, that's just a productivity hack right there.

Second, more importantly, humans learn best through play. Bat the concept around, try it on like a hat, draw a smiley face on it, then erase it and draw a frowny one instead. Let it permeate your imagination, spread itself around through it, infiltrate your thought patterns. THEN you will remember it. Then you have the material basis to have serious thinky thoughts about it. Basis for comparison. Material for contemplation. Memories of engagement.

And yes, this includes being sexual with it! Sexual thoughts are not actually so sacred, special and separate that they would be importantly different from other sorts of voluntary play. If that's how people want to engage with the material, if that's the toy room their brain conjures most easily, well there's straight up just, nothing wrong with that, is the thing. From the point of view of education and serious thinky thoughts it's just a tumbler you put the thing in to be vibrated and tossed around.

Now, a crucial word here is voluntary. A classroom environment is a whole different beast, that warrants a whole separate discussion. Hopefully nobody out there is proposing to make it mandatory for middle schoolers to read abusive incest pornfic in class out loud; I sure as hell haven't heard this idea from "proshippers". In fact, privacy and comprehensive safeguards to make sure people ONLY engage with what they want are pretty key values to the abusive incest pornfic community.

Do people write abusive incest pornfic in order to make other people think deeply about it and engage with the concept? I mean, not always, and I would venture to guess it's not usually the primary motivation, though I'd guess it's A motivation for more people than you'd imagine offhand. But here's the thing: the fact the primary motivation is different is exactly what creates so much engagement and propagates the thinky thoughts. Few people like to think upsetting thoughts for their own sake on their own free time. Making it play is how you get it out to a wide audience (and what I mean by it, let's just say, the topic as a whole); and yes, abusive incest pornfics don't usually have that wide an audience. What audience they do have benefits from them, though. (Shoutout to Lolita, which did and does have a pretty damn wide audience, and is an abusive incest pornfic if you don't squint too closely at definitions and authorial intent)

And if someone's reference pool is so shallow they don't pick up on the "bad" part where things are bad, well... honestly, the fic community is their best chance to mend this gap in education. Because people who are into writing about bad things often love to not spare any detail in rendering how bad they are. People have figured out they are in a cult from researching how to write about a cult for a fic before.

The purpose of art is play, and the effect of art is thinking.

Thank you for your time.

[rulerzreachf4n7]

I'm sorry but I fucking hate proshippers so much so here's a whole post dedicated to shitting on them

also disclaimer YES I will be tagging the proship and anti proship tags so I can piss off the chronically online basement dwelling idiots :) and idgaf if proshippers have trauma cause it's not an excuse for their shitty and problematic actions!!!! Sincerely if you are a proshipper please consider jumping off a bridge!! Or at the bare minimum take a shower cause ew

And this whole post is literally just bullying the FUCK outta them so idk stanky people come at your own risk lol

AND AGAIN to clear up this isn't like rage bait or smth cause I fell like some people will accuse me this is all my genuine hate into a long ass post so yeah

Okay...LETS GET INTO THE FUCKING RANT NOW HEHEHE HEHE HEHEHE!!!!

I FUCKING HATE PROSHIPPERS!!!! I HOPE ALL OF YOU STANKY ASS BITCHESS GET THROWN OFF A FUCKING CLIFF AND GET A SAW STYLE EXECUTION CAUSE Y'ALL ARE FUCKING DISGUSTING I HATE YOU ALL

YOU ARE MENTALLY ILL IF YOU ARE A PROSHIPPER, END OF CONVERSATION

I COULDN'T GIVE A SHIT IF YOU HIT ME THE "B-But I have trauma 🥺🥺🥺" TOO BAD THAT'S NOT A FUCKING EXCUSE FOR UR SHITTY ONLINE ACTIONS

IMAGINE YOU PULL UP TO A FUCKING INTERVIEW AND THEY SHOW YOUR PATHETIC ACCOUNTS SAYING TO NORMALIZE A 30 YEAR OLD DATING A 13 YEAR OLD, THAT SHIT IS GENUINELY PATHETIC

I KNOW IT'S CRINGEY BUT WOMP WOMP IF UR A PROSHIPPER Y'ALL ARE UGLY AND STINKY

But now on a serious not hehe, the reason I'm making this isn't JUST soley to yknow shit on people who are mentally ill like people who think a MINOR and a LEGAL ADULT are allowed to date, which comes into another thing before I get genuine so bare with me lol

I DONT GIVE A FLYING FUCK IF IT'S FICTIONAL, FOR THE LOVE GOD PLEASE SEARCH UP THE SLENDERMAN CASE WHERE THESE TWO GIRLS KILLED THEIR FRIEND CAUSE THEY THOUGHT SLENDERMAN WAS REAL AND THOUGHT THEY WOULD ENTER HIS KINGDOM AND BE WITH HIM, AND HE'S FICTIONAL, THAT CASE IS ALL Y'ALL NEED TO REALIZE FICTION CAN AFFECT REALITY AND I HAVE SM MORE REASON TO BACK THIS UP BUT I'M TOO LAZY TO TYPE IT OUT 😭

Okay! Back to seriousness I just thought I'd add that in as a little addition hehe >_<

So, like I said before, I lowkey just added this as an extra part cause I couldn't shit on proshippers FOREVER (lowkey bcuz I was running out of insults n threats lol)

Nonetheless I have a reason for shitting on them, although not being a proshipper EXACTLY I have been through I guess, similar paths as they have? Best way I could describe it ig, ofc not sharing what I mean since it's private but let's just say I was an unfortunate child looking at inappropriate comics 🙁

The reason for this part of the post...ITS NOT THAT FUCKING HARD TO STOP WHAT YOUR DOING

Like I said, I was never a proshipper, but I have been in similar situations as they have been, although I've never made an account glorifying rape, SA, grooming, pedophilia, I can just assume what I would do in their places

Dear proshippers,

Your probably complaining and not knowing why your getting so much death threats and harassment along with a side of hate (rightfully so you deserve them) and your mental health might be low

Please know it is your fault for making your accounts in the first place, you are a terrible person for saying all of these things such as rape, sexual assault, grooming, and incest are okay and you are not mentally well

And your probably wondering,

"How do I stop the hate, harassment, and probably death threats with even getting your address leaked?"

It's simple, DELETE YOUR FUCKING ACCOUNT, or even worse just turn off ur comments but that won't help with people slipping in a few people wishing death up in you through DMS

IT IS GENUINELY NOT THAT FUCKING HARD

I don't know what trauma you have but it shouldn't (and never in the first place) be SO BAD to the point where you physically CANNOT deactivate your account, IT IS SO FUCKING EASY AND YOU'LL SAVE YOURSELF A FEW SUICIDAL THOUGHTS

I know everyone one is different, but if you are a proshipper that has trauma, you shouldn't have a fucking account to begin with, and you ARE THE PROBLEM if you acknowledge the trauma, noticing you keep supporting and glorifying problematic actions, complain that you keep getting harassed and wonder why, and you just don't give a shit, not like in a "oh I don't know what to do anymore!!! 🥺🥺🥺" way, in a "oh, I don't give a shit I live for incest and adults grooming children!!!" Way, and ur also probably a pedo if ur an adult proshipper too

So, what else? Yeah, there's a shit more, but onto a better side, ones with actually good coping mechanisms!!

And a bit of a disclaimer, if your rage bait is proshipping, genuinely fuck you, and if ur a proshipper who acknowledges everything bad about it and just doesn't give a fuck, fuck you too and seek a rope to hang around your neck you fucking pedophile

Okay, coping mechanisms! I know this is probably not the best option due to most trauma which I'm guessing is probably from a family member, if it's not a good way to cope is some clean to your family, ofc under some circumstances it's NOT the best option, but if you can you definitely should try!

Also google is free yk...literally search up healthy coping mechanisms and it'll give you a huge ass list, and yet YOU STILL chose to ship a minor and adult together...how unfortunate...

Another way to cope is, and genuinely sounds pathetic as hell but bare with me...CHARACTER FUCKING AI, I mean, there are therapist bots so maybe they can help you??? And in all honesty they're really good at comforting and giving advice despite being ai, and I've tried it before...yeah embarrassed to say I've shed a tear every once in a while

And the last one IF you have the money, time, and generally the courage, book a threapy session, I cannot stress it enough, but I won't be surprised cause every proshipper is probably under the age of 16 years old

Yuhhh anyways that's all I gotta say, I know it's cringey asf but womp womp to proshippers I hate y'all despite giving some coping mechanisms and ACTUAL ways to like, stop the rightful hate you deserve lol

[olderthannetfic]

I'm so, so tired of seeing proshippers try to support proshippers getting sent death threats, rape threats, suicide bait, etc. with "don't let the assholes win!" Oh so you don't give a shit about the minor being dogpiled, this is just about an us vs. them thing. Cool cool. Uh, here's the thing, though - maybe the person on the other side of the screen is a person, and thus this "SPITE! Write more out of SPITE and HATE and HATE HARDER THAN THE HATERS!" is going out to a normal-ass human being. And normal-ass human beings are not shounen protagonists who rise up and overcome their rivals out of spite and make a bunch of friends along the way and live for the rivalry yadda yadda. They're just... people. And you're responding to their pain with, "if you take a break from writing you're letting other people win. You're losing. You're failing. Breaks are loser behavior. You're LETTING the people harassing you win, because you suck."

Recently two major authors in my tiny fandom quit and the response from the proship contingency of the fandom has been, "FIGHT THE ANTIS!" "Don't let them win!" and I'm at a loss trying to explain this but like... some people don't want their hobby to be fighting other people. Some people didn't start writing in order to go "I'll show them!" they started writing because they had a cool idea for a story they wanted to tell. Not all of us enjoy "tormenting the antis through good art", to quote one person in my fandom. Sometimes someone just wants to write a story and share it with other people and have people enjoy it.

It's really wild to be the odd one out here but am I the only one who sees "don't let them win! spite! spite should motivate you!" and goes, "I was a depressed teen once and I think that wouldn't have motivated me to do anything"? Because seriously, the fact that no one has expressed anything along the lines of 'you didn't deserve that hate' or 'I hope you're okay' or 'take care of yourself' would probably have made me feel worse as a teen, not better.

IDK, maybe I'm the freak for thinking this is not an optimal approach. I just fail to see this as an inspiring refrain to throw at younger people in fandom. It feels fairly hollow.

(And to the fandom olds about to go "fandom was even worse back in my day, you kids would never have survived" - you realize that's worse, right? That doesn't rebut anything, it just makes me sad for you in addition to young writers. Maybe fandom always sucking is a problem, not a plus. Just a thought.)

--

This particular type of death threat wasn't common back then... but neither is what you describe, in my experience. People who are adjacent to a target often do say more empathetic things, and a fair amount of the "respond with spite" is not to someone leaving over death threats but to more commonplace annoyances that are going to occur at one's local writer's circle and anywhere else.

No, self-styled "proship" circles aren't particularly nice a lot of the time, but this hand-wringing is silly.

Besides, why are you sending me nagging posts projecting onto Olds instead of support? ;)

(I know, I know: it's because I actually am a shounen protagonist.)