#no oath for maglor

[ctxopencanvas]

[imflevrett]

Fëanorian star (ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧

[eilinelsghost]

(Medium) Hot Take: "Did the Oath actually condemn Fëanor & his sons to the Everlasting Darkness" is the wrong question because it has a clear textual answer: which is "no."

Did it have the power to do so? That's another question entirely and a fun one to debate.

But did it? Absolutely not.

Because each of the sons of Fëanor (and Fëanor himself) fulfilled their Oath. Nowhere in the various drafts of the Oath is there a version where they call down the Everlasting Darkness if they fail to retrieve a Silmaril. What they actually swear is:

an oath of enmity for ever against any that should hold the Silmarils The Book of Lost Tales, Part One

shall no law nor love nor league of Gods, no might nor mercy, not moveless fate, defend him for ever from the fierce vengeance of the sons of Fëanor, whoso seize or steal or finding keep the fair enchanted globes of crystal whose glory dies not, the Silmarils. The Lays of Beleriand, The Flight of the Noldoli

no law, nor love, nor league of hell, no might of Gods, no binding spell, shall him defend from hatred fell of Fëanor's sons, whoso take or steal or finding keep a Silmaril. The Lays of Beleriand, The Lay of Leithian: Canto IV

neither law, nor love, nor league of swords, dread nor danger, not Doom itself, shall defend him from Fëanor, and Fëanor's kin, whoso hideth or hoardeth, or in hand taketh, finding keepeth or afar casteth a Silmaril. This swear we all: death we will deal him ere Day's ending, woe unto world's end! Our word hear thou, Eru Allfather! To the everlasting Darkness doom us if our deed faileth. Morgoth's Ring; Fifth section of the Annals of Aman

they swore an oath [...] calling the Everlasting Dark upon them if they kept it not; [...] vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World Vala, Demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, or any creature, great or small, good or evil, that time should bring forth unto the end of days, whoso should hold or take or keep a Silmaril from their possession. The Silmarillion; Of the Flight of the Noldor

Every version of the Oath that includes the Everlasting Darkness calls it down upon them only if they do not pursue the perceived thief with vengeance and hatred. The only variance from this is in the version from the Annals of Aman where one could conceivably link the Everlasting Darkness with a failure to kill whosoever took a Silmaril. But this version is replaced by the consistent form shown in all other iterations (the same form that is included in the published Silmarillion) and consequently doesn't hold much weight for the argument.

Fëanor and each of his sons (save Maglor who survives the First Age with a Silmaril in his possession) met their ends in pursuit of this exact clause - pursuing those who hold a Silmaril with vengeance and hatred - and consequently dying in fulfilment of their Oath. Which is to say that even if we do hold that the Oath had the power to damn them to the Everlasting Darkness (which it very well may have!), it would not, could not, and did not do so because the terms were met.

And even setting the specific wording of the Oath, the text tells us exactly what happens to one who dies in pursuit of the Oath while still not regaining a single Silmaril: "...[Fëanor's] likeness has never again appeared in Arda, neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos" (The Silmarillion, Of the Return of the Noldor).

So yes, the Oath might have had the power to send them into the Everlasting Darkness, but it did not have the grounds to do so. And so it did not.

[tolkien-povs]

Firmly believing in the fact that Maedhros being one of the most formidable of the Fëanàrions is due to the pent-up anger and frustration he has of being the oldest sibling.

Maglor is a close second because look at then both: they survived 4 kinslayings together.

[corsairspade]

I was going to say we need to be weirder about Maglor but then I remembered crablor. That’s on me. We need to also be DIFFERENT weird about Maglor.

Maglor who walks along the coast for thousands of years and does not stop singing. Maglor who after ages of the world have passed, has a voice that is made only for music. When he speaks, there is something too lyrical to the tone. He sighs and the world accompanies him. His raised voice sets the ground shaking, his laments call water like tears from the sky. He has to be careful when he speaks to people, however rare that is, because of it. He weeps and those who can hear him cannot help but weep as well. Maglor with a voice so powerful that he can no longer use it the way he could when the world was young. One more thing lost to the Oath.

[stellavesperis]

Do you think for a moment, before the Silmarils burned, that Maedhros and Maglor felt like they were home?

That light was the light of Aman, all that was left of the Two Trees (aside from the distant sun and moon). It was the same light that they had seen their father shape into gems when they were young. I sometimes forget that there was a time when the Silmarils really were theirs, when they didn’t burn their hands at the touch, when Fëanor wore them openly about and let his sons behold them too.

And then, all these years later, when they were finally in possession of their father’s gems, their eyes were filled once more with the same light that had illuminated Valinor before its darkening.

Do you think, for a moment, they felt like they were home?

[edennill]

Anyway, the interesting thing about the last debate of Maedhros and Maglor is that the argument Maedhros uses to win it — or the last argument we see from the winner, anyway — just... doesn't hold water when you think about it.

And Maedhros answered: "But how shall out voices reach Iluvatar beyond the Circles of the World? (..) Who shall release us?

Have you two fools (affectionate, but also please get your act together) considered that according to this reasoning, if he cannot hear you now, then he never heard you make it in the first place? I know you've grown used to believing everything is against you, but surely you don't think the world only works the way that is most inopportune to you even when it belays logic?

To be clear, I also don't think the answer is what they believe it is. Notwithstanding the fact that some of the Valar have spoken with Eru since they entered Eä (which you absolutely should know about), notwithstanding Manwë's "direct phone line" beyond, have you perhaps considered that half your problems are due to the fact that someone once managed to get an exemption from the most binding rules of the world by appeal to highest authority?

I'm certain the Oath should not be considered more unalterable

if it ever was binding.

(Technically you two eight may have written up a contract that was never ratified and which the parties on whom you swore had exceedingly good reasons not to agree to)

[and-the-times-we-had]

I feel like the fandom is sleeping on a potential horror reading of the Oath of Feanor as its own sort of powerful metaphysical being that the Feanorians accidentally created when they swore the oath. A being capable of sleeping and waking. A being capable of betrayal and torment. Like that's some good horror shit right there.

[eri-pl]

I had another thought about the Maedhros and Maglor exchange before they go kill-people-for-the-Silmarils-4.0. Again, about the "But how would Eru hear us?" question. It is not as stupid as I thought, my apologies to Maedhros.

With the Oath, they do call Manwë and Varda as witnesses and this may mean also "witness and go tell Eru what we said". So yes, from M&M's perspective it may be that the only way to reach Eru is through the main Valar.

Still, Maedhros's point isn't very valid, because yes, Manwë and Varda cannot release you, and ok, I get that you assume Eru will not hear you, but you can do as with the oath and ask M&V to work as a proxy. And they would agree. But of course this discussion is not even about that, not about the technicalities, it's about "I am not going into any negotiations ever again, we are not doing this, no [flashbacks and panic]". And Maglor not being able to set bounduaries even for his brother's own good.

[lolrandomfangirl]

[theconstellationprincess]

Whumptober Day 16: Wound Cleaning

Celebrimbor injures himself in the forge, and Elrond decides to help him out. Elrond and Celebrimbor figure out that elves copy mannerisms from their relatives, though it can be painful to see.

-

Elrond clicks his tongue as he assesses the burn, holding Celebrimbor's arm gently, careful to not cause any more harm. "It's deep," Elrond says into the quiet air of the forge, sparing a quick glance to Celebrimbor before refocusing on the burn. "I will dress it with a salve, which should help with the pain. It won't take more than a week or two to finish healing."

Celebrimbor hums, and Elrond releases his arm with a clearing of his throat. No longer able to focus on the wound, he looks towards the Lord of Eregion, feeling slightly anxious. Celebrimbor had several healers on staff, ones that likely had far more training and experience than Elrond, and yet when he had gotten burned, he did not go to them. Celebrimbor does not look like his is in too much pain, which is good. His face is not set in a grimace, no furrow between his brows, and there are no tears in his eyes- in fact, Celebrimbor is giving Elrond a smile. "Thank you," Celebrimbor says softly, making to stand up. Elrond backs up to give him space, and stands as well, fidgeting with the sleeves for a moment.

"I will return shortly with the salve and bandages," Elrond says suddenly, because he desperately needs out of this forge, away from Celebrimbor's softening gaze and kind smile. He is down the stairs and out the doors before his lord can get in a word, not quite running but certainly rushing, back to his room. He can hear his heart, lodged in his throat as he collects the dried plants and herbs he has with him. He knows why he is anxious around Celebrimbor more often than the other elf lords he knows. Not only does he worry about making a fool out of himself politically, but Celebrimbor is part of his family, the only living connection he has to Maedhros and Maglor, and he desperately wants Celebrimbor to approve of him.

In Celebrimbor's smiles, his moments of calm and rationality that pull Elrond from spiraling thoughts, the way he looks at Elrond- soft, gentle, protective- Elrond sees his fathers. He was still a child when he saw them last, but he carries the memories of them close in his heart and recalls all the details of them as often as he can, lest he forget anything. To lose his memories of them, his knowledge of how they loved him, every little way, would be like losing his heart itself.

The salve is easy to make, muscle memory taking over as Elrond wanders in his thoughts. Celebrimbor seemed to have mostly painful memories of his family, and Elrond does not wish to cause him pain so he has yet to broach the subject, but there is an itch under his skin that desires to know each and every one of Celebrimbor's memories of them. There is so much he does not about them, and he longs for a chance to reunite with them, hope still present in his heart that he may one day meet Maglor again, for there are rumors that he wanders Middle Earth still.

The pestle in his hands is trembling, so he sets it down and sets a lid over the ceramic container he had made the salve in. Short, choppy breaths fall from his lips as he graps the salve and collects some bandages that he had brought with him. Elrond is used to getting minor injuries, he is more fragile than the average elf, with his being peredhel, and so always ensures that he has the necessary medical supplies to dress small wounds.

The walk back to the forge seems to stretch on, as though the Valar want to give him more time to grow anxious about attending to Celebrimbor. What if he injures him? Elrond could never forgive himself if he were to harm Celebrimbor. He has failed the descendants of Feanor far too many times already to fail Celebrimbor too. He had not been able to help Maedhros and Maglor when the oath had gotten worse, or at least not help enough so that they would not feel the need to leave him and Elros behind.

The doors of the forge appear in front of him, suddenly, and Elrond hesitates- just for a moment, the length of the sharp inhale he takes- and steps inside. It is quiet, and Elrond cringes at the way his steps echo in the large room as he approaches Celebrimbor. The smith has not moved from his spot, greeting Elrond with a small smile, one that is startlingly similar to Maglor- one that spoke of tiredness but genuine joy to see the person it is given too.

"You looked like Maglor, for a moment there." Elrond says before he can stop himself, the words spill out of him outside of his control. He stiffens, opening his mouth to apologize but Celebrimbor speaks first. Elrond scans his face, looking for any signs of pain or upset, but finds fondness instead.

"Did I really?" Celebrimbor asks, lips curled up as he looks towards Elrond with sparkling eyes. "It would not be the first time we were compared, but it has been a long time since anyone has said it, let alone kindly." There is a true joy on Celebrimbor's face, so Elrond cannot do anything but nod, breath catching in his chest.

"You did," Elrond confirms, looking away before he speaks more and makes a fool of himself. He sets down the salve and bandages, reaching out for Celebrimbor's arm but pausing before he makes contact. "May I?" He asks quietly, swallowing down the lump in his throat when Celebrimbor looks at him and all he can see are his foster fathers, suffering through Elrond's beginner healing skills and they got any sort of minor injury.

"Go ahead," Celebrimbor hums, and Elrond can feel his gaze as he carefully applies the salve and wraps the injury. It is simple, and he can almost forget that he is treating Lord Celebrimbor of Eregion, the last living blood descendant of Feanor. "Thank you." Celebrimbor tells him with a smile as Elrond finishes and steps back, looking over the now bandaged injury.

"It is no trouble. I must admit, it is flattering that you asked me to help you." Elrond laughs a bit, trying to force himself to relax and calm down. Celebrimbor has been nothing but kind to him during his stay in Eregion, that will not change now. Celebrimbor laughs as well, but it is tinged with sadness, much to Elrond's immediate concern.

"When I was young," Celebrimbor begins, shifting his gaze towards the window and fidgeting with his sleeves, "My father was not often around. He was busy, you see, with a great variety of things that are not limited to the oath. I got very close with my uncles, because at least one of them was always around, and I have a fond memory of my uncle Maglor helping me after I had scraped myself. I had thought that perhaps you might heal as he did, and you did not disappoint." Celebrimbor gave a wet laugh, wiping at his eyes and giving Elrond another smile.

Elrond can feel the wetness on his face as he starts to cry too, blinking rapidly as he stands in front of Celebrimbor. "Thank you," He replies in a hoarse voice, choked by tears. He gives Celebrimbor a smile back, because to know that at the very least, one of his father's is so deeply intertwined in his craft, his healing, is a very soothing knowledge indeed.

[fangirl-erdariel]

Maglor casts the Silmaril into the sea. He wanders the coasts. He sings. He wanders. He does not count the passing time, it just goes by him as water in a river around a rock. He doesn't know when it begins - if it even has a real beginning at all

All he knows is that a heavy cloud or thick smoke has slowly gathered on his mind, making it hard to think, sometimes, hard to clearly grasp or understand his own thoughts. His memory is slipping too, strangely, as the memory of an elf never should, things shifting or being lost under this shadow.

But forever clearly, almost becoming more clear while other memories are shadowed, the words of the Oath echo in his mind. Why did he cast away the Silmaril? Was he so weak, so incapable of bearing pain? He should have kept it. He was a fool. He should seek it out again, but how? how? he cannot breathe underwater, it is gone beyond his grasp.

Slowly, stealthily sneaking up on him, the shadow clouds his sight too. At first a faint mist, hardly noticeable, just making traveling mildly more irritating. But eventually he realizes that it has been night for him… much much longer than is possible. That he must have walked in seeming darkness for years now, and morning and day have never come, no, in fact the night is only deepening…

At last, he is groping blindly in utter darkness, in the world and in his own mind alike. He huddles where he hopes he's sheltered, and sings, and feels his way aimlessly onward, and sings, and lies down alone in the horrible night that no light can penetrate.

But he remembers. He remembers. Once there was light, he remembers. Bright, bright light. It burned him, and he threw it away. Fool, fool. He was such a fool. Why did he throw it away? That light was bright enough that it would be able to dispel even this darkness, he's sure. He was a fool to throw it away.

And he remembers, he had sworn to regain the light (he remembers other voices also swearing the oath that echoes in his mind, but the faces of those who swore are long since lost in the shadows upon him). He should not have thrown away what he had sworn to regain. But now all is dark, and he cannot see his way enough to know where he's going when he walks, seeking the light he cast away is now an impossible task…

So instead he lies still where he last fell down, and sings of loss and cruelty and foolishness, sings something he has sung so many times that his mouth knows it without thought, the words burned into his mind even though, with the shadows in the way, he can no longer grasp the memories and knowledge and history the song was born out of

[zeb-z]

I will say it is really funny in RoP that Elrond swears an oath and then is immediately put in insane circumstances to put it to the test. like that’s some Feanorian bullshit if I’ve ever seen it

[aureentuluva70]

Just got my copy of the Fall of Gondolin and I was reading "The Conclusion of the Sketch of the Mythology" section, and I am obsessed with one of the early drafts, particularly concerning Maedhros's final fate in the story.

In this early draft, Maedhros doesn't commit suicide. Not only that, he never even steals a silmaril from Eonwë in the first place. Maglor is specifically mentioned as having stolen one of the jewels, but Maedhros is not mentioned alongside him.

We aren't given anymore info on Maglor's fate, though we do get a little more on Maedhros, and it legit made me spit my drink out:

LIKE, WHAT???!!!

WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT THIS (Talk about awkward roadtrip tho lol)

[quixoticanarchy]

Maglor saying "the oath says not that we may not bide our time" is very interesting (not, unfortunately, conducive to conciseness). bear with me.

a) if they can bide their time, that kind of undermines the idea that they are driven by the oath into atrocity; rather, they can choose the moment to obey it (to some degree). the truth of this statement is unclear because it does seem that they spend a lot of the First Age biding their time, but also when they try to bide their time before the third kinslaying, it was said that they were tormented by the oath. was that false? what is it that pushes them into action, if not the pressure of the oath? or, is it the knowledge and shame of the unfulfilled oath combined with events that enable them to strike out for the jewels, but not actually any metaphysical pressure forcing their hand?

b) Maglor is also saying here, let's go back to Valinor and just see what happens. maybe eventually we can get the silmarils peacefully and be forgiven (I have to agree with Maedhros that that seems.. unlikely). probably correctly, Maedhros envisions the difficulty of trying to get the silmarils in Valinor while unforgiven, and what it would entail and cost to do violence there again. Maglor imagines peace; Maedhros definitely anticipates violence

c) I think Maglor also just wants to go home. he wants to stop. he would probably like to fulfill the oath (or be freed from it), but also would be fine with kicking the can down the road, presuming the oath will allow that. but once Maedhros talks him out of the likelihood of success if they wait til Valinor, he's also willing to break it entirely. his contention that Manwë and Varda making the oath impossible to fulfill would also make it void could be interpreted as a hope that both these things would happen

Maedhros makes the points that they can't be released bc they swore also to Ilúvatar, and therefore they're still facing the Everlasting Darkness if they fail. to which Maglor makes the fair point that if they can't be released, then either they hold themselves bound by the oath and keep trying for the silmarils (and if they fail, face Everlasting Darkness), or try to give up the oath, find they are still bound by it and, having auto-failed their task by breaking the oath, face Everlasting Darkness anyway. therefore yes, they would do less evil in the breaking, but the result is the same to them - as long as in neither case do they actually anticipate fulfilling the oath. Maglor therefore is maybe ready to give it up as impossible; possibly, Maedhros is arguing that it remains achievable for now, but "its fulfilment be byeond all hope" only once back in Aman, lending urgency to the final attempt to get the silmarils now.

a follow-up question: do they at this point believe that success is still possible? what is success? if they have to get all 3 silmarils to satisfy the oath, they're up against Earendil, but they never mention that. what does fulfilling the oath mean - that they evade the consequence of failure? is the force that 'drives' them to stick to the oath not so much (or not only) a metaphysical pain or burden that torments them, but the fear of the failure condition itself - the Everlasting Darkness?

this would explain Maglor's interest in wanting to stop pursuing the oath, but also wanting it somehow neutralized - whether by biding time or having the oath declared void. and Maedhros is arguing that a) they can't be released, b) they can only keep the darkness at bay by continuing to actually try for fulfilment, and c) they should take this one last shot while arguably they still have a chance (or at least it's easier than it would be in Aman). it may not matter whether success is ultimately possible (i.e. if Earendil does come into the picture, or the crosshairs), but it matters that they are trying.

but then, what to make of them reportedly realizing Eönwë was right and they've lost their right to the silmarils? what does that matter to the oath? the oath declares they'll do anything to get them back, and they do. as much as it sucks to get burned, getting them back (ignore the 3rd silmaril) should mean their deed has not failed so they should not face Everlasting Darkness.

I see a couple of possibilities here: a) they ceased being bound by the oath when they lost their right to the silmarils, which would make it vain and mean none of the atrocities had to happen. but is that how the oath operates? did they stop being bound by it long ago and just not realize? or, alternately, b) does their losing their right to the silmarils mean they auto-fail the oath bc they’ll never truly “reclaim” them? and therefore, rather than their never being at risk of Everlasting Darkness, are they consigned to it now no matter what? (but Maglor at least seems to evade that, unless it’s very metaphorical…) or, c) were they indeed bound by the oath all along and indeed fulfilled it, it just doesn't really matter bc the victory is hollow, and they themselves can’t hold the very things they killed others for holding? could be harsh enough on its own, whether or not the oath responds to the status of their “right” to the silmarils.

there is also the matter of we don’t know what the Everlasting Darkness is. lol. but I’m not touching that now beyond I think it’s a thing the SoF are genuinely afraid of

[general-illyrin]