#MAEDHROS LIVES(well. in this version anyway)

[aureentuluva70]

Just got my copy of the Fall of Gondolin and I was reading "The Conclusion of the Sketch of the Mythology" section, and I am obsessed with one of the early drafts, particularly concerning Maedhros's final fate in the story.

In this early draft, Maedhros doesn't commit suicide. Not only that, he never even steals a silmaril from Eonwë in the first place. Maglor is specifically mentioned as having stolen one of the jewels, but Maedhros is not mentioned alongside him.

We aren't given anymore info on Maglor's fate, though we do get a little more on Maedhros, and it legit made me spit my drink out:

LIKE, WHAT???!!!

WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT THIS (Talk about awkward roadtrip tho lol)

[erendur]

Crack Silm relationships I'd like to read about

It would completely ruin the story and Jirt’s intents, structure, motifs and characters, but at least I could read the Silm without going “No, not the ruin of Beleriand again ! Ah, no, please, not the third Kinslaying, I can’t !”.

Maedhros and Lúthien.

He has trauma, looks much the worse for wear after his captivity, and would definitely piss off her dad as a choice of boyfriend (rebel teenage Lúthien energy). She is the most beautiful (self-explanatory), a unique type of Elf-Maia being (Noldor like novelty and are curious), spends a lot of time singing which I guess would foster a sense of comforting familiarity in one wounded not just in body but also in mind ?

Anyway, they could have a great Wounded Beast who Swore a Stupid Oath and Committed Some Crimes and Eldricht Beauty I Can Fix Him dynamic.

They both hang out in forests enough that they could easily meet. She would take him of a stealth mission to steal the Silmarils. He would borrow his brother’s knives (one knife per Silmaril), and they would be successful. Huan could give a hand out of family solidarity. Morgoth would be to stunned/ashamed/doesn’t really like to move his ass from his throne anyway so nothing much would happen immediately. They would still be at war and Morgoth would make more monsters and bid his time.

Lúthien could wear the three Silmarils on a crown. Maedhros would be very happy and proud. She is canonically the prettiest Elf ever and he is “well formed” so they could have the prettiest babies. And actually, and I’m very aware that is not at all how genetics work, but they would have Lúthien’s canonical descendants as their babies. That’s 7 of them, which sounds like an adequate number of sprogs for a Fëanorian (no need to change the family sigil !).

Eärendil and Elwing would be the elder, a twin brother and sister. At some point in their teens (Elvish teens, they’re in their thirties), they decide to take a Silmaril from their mother’s jewellery box and to go on their own little stealth mission to save the world, after having spend too much time with their Uncle Fingon. Since Elwing is very eldrichty and can change into birds, and Eärendil can (check note) make boats, the missions is of course a total success. Guided by the light of the Silmaril, they eventually land on the shores of Valinor where they immediately start singing a moving song about the plight of Middle Earth. Eärendil accompanies the song by playing Fingon’s harp (he knows how stealth missions work and of course took Fingon’s silver great harp along with his mother’s jewellery), Elwing leads a chorus of seabirds at key moments.

The Valar are of course moved (have we mentioned how pretty they both look ???), they send an army to Middle-Earth, Eärendil and Elwing are given the right to spend their life travelling between Middle-Earth and Valinor by the Valar as a reward. Eärendil choses to do the trips in the sky on his boat (because he can), his mum’s Silmaril on his forehead, the shadow of Fingon's harp clearly visible against the light of the Silmaril. The Fëanorians are totally cool with it, since he is himself a Fëanorian.

Elwing eventually settles in Tol Eressëa where she becomes Queen of the returned Elves, and therefore beats her Aunt Galadriel to the post by about an age at being the first reigning female ruler among the Elves.

Dior would be kept well away from making any sort of political decision. Given his clearly incredible fighting talents though, he would either end up being Celegorms’ favourite nephew and heir, or, my favourite version, he would take over the cavalry and the Gap from Maglor, who would be able to finally go chill somewhere and write some music.

Elured and Elurin would eventually inherit Doriath, just because. Or they would go and live a wild life of hunting and hanging out in the forest with their uncles Ambarussa. They’re still twins.

Elros and Elrond are obviously still twins as well. They are born very shortly after Elured and Elurin, and since that’s a lot of eldricht peredhil twins to have under just one roof (just the weather is wild, people are begging Mae to do something about it), they are given to foster to another family member as per Victorian family traditions. This family member is, of course, Maglor, who doesn’t really get to chill for very long after all. Since he’s no longer in charge of the cavalry or a super-hard-to-defend position, he raises the twins.

Elros of course is now an Elf-Maia peredhel, and doesn’t have to die. He still founds Númenor and becomes their king, because someone with the gift of prescience finally used it for something useful and figured out that these guys could really do with a wise, immortal ruler, who wouldn’t, you know, suddenly decide to go and invade Valinor once he finds the burden of mortality too hard to bear. Elendil is his son. Isildur his grandson. He is kept well away from rings.

Elrond is pretty much the same, but with less people around him having died/disappeared/been killed. But he’s too awesome to be different. He’s still the same “kind as summer” dude. He becomes his father’s heir, because he’s just too awesome. Everybody thinks it’s a great choice, because he is too awesome. He’s bestie with his cousin Gil-Galad, the High King. 

That turned out to be a longer post than intended so I’ll post the rest later.

Crack Silm Relationships I'd like to read about II

Crack Silm Relationships I'd like to read about III

Crack Silm Relationships I'd like to read about IV

[redbootsindoriath]

Okay so I, like most Silmarillion fanartists, draw the Fëanorian twins as looking like...well...kids.  The book says they were the youngest in the family, and we all went, “Okay then they’re children.”  Which...yeah, that’s fair.  They really just seem to be chilling most of the time, which makes them seem a bit more innocent than the others.  But rather early on in my time doing Silm fanart, I thought about how funny if would be if they looked way older than their brothers.  But I never did anything with the idea.

Well, after finishing the Fëanorian Week drawings this year I was thinking about how I don’t really draw many Ñoldor due to not having headcanons about many of them.  And you guys know by this time that I love a bit of good angst, so I looked at the twins and said, “...ooh goody�� and gave them a big old revamp.  (The drawing is of Amras and Maedhros, by the way.  For one thing, I’ve said before that I don’t like drawing identical twins. And for another…we’ll get into that in a second.)

Real quick, for those who aren’t super familiar with the different pieces of source material we have from Tolkien: in the Silmarillion both twins survive most of the story until they die together in the same battle near the end of the book. However, in one lone version of the story, Amrod dies when the ships are burned at Losgar.  Okay so.  That’s what’s been published, from here on out it’s just headcanon territory.

I think Amrod did die when the ships were burned.  Elves are spiritually a bit...different...so I expect twins have a particularly strong bond.  Amras wasn’t really able to handle the death of his brother, and went a little bit weird in the head.  He believed that half of his own soul died at Losgar, and half of Amrod’s still lived inside of him.  For the rest of his life, he answered to Amrod’s names, his own names, and Ambarussa, and signed his name and managed accounts as any of them as well.  He refused to acknowledge Amrod’s death and became irrational when any of his brothers mentioned it, so eventually they played along.  The story spreads that there were two of Fëanor’s sons that guard East Beleriand, but they are unsocial and rarely seen together.  People will report having seen one or the other of them but no one can tell the difference (in reality, this is because there is only one that is still alive.)

It’s uncertain who all knows about Amrod’s death, even among the Ñoldor that came with Fingolfin.  Most of the Sindar and Silvan elves don’t know.  Probably no humans know.  Anyone who does know doesn’t talk about it, and all everybody else knows is what they're told, and this is why in most versions of the story they both survive until Sirion.  For a while you’d see one or the other of them out hunting or going to war, and you just assumed the other was doing something else.  But then after Sirion no one ever saw either one.  Therefore, they obviously both died in the same battle.

Anyway, that’s just the version I came up with.  I don’t know if I’ll keep it, but it makes Amras a much more interesting character.  And that let me come up with a more visually interesting design, much older than I used to draw them.  Whether this was always the way they looked or a change that Amras went through after arriving in Middle Earth I haven’t decided yet.

[welcomingdisaster]

Russingon 5, 12, 13?

5. "Lies came between them": what are your thoughts on the relationship between Fingon and Maedhros during the fraught period of the Unrest of the Noldor?

I have a few different versions of this! Here's one:

As their fathers increasingly grow apart, Maedhros is generally the one who is more willing to doubt his father. He will never directly go against him, but he will sometimes (in private) voice thoughts along the lines of "dad takes things a little too far" or "I think x is kinda overblown" or w/e. Meanwhile, Fingon is the one who will absolutely stand by Fingolfin no matter what. After all, Fingolfin is the reasonable one, isn't he? He didn't threaten his brother with a sword. He's not endlessly whisking his sons away for stupid arrogant reasons. He's well-spoken and cool-headed and he's a great dad and shut up Maedhros Fingon will not hear a single word against him.

Anyways, one day Maedhros comes to Fingon all exasperated like, "Can you believe it, my father asked me to tell me your comings and goings? I delayed him for now and I'll just tell him the bare minimum but I cannot believe he'd asked me to spy" and Fingon is like "? Well, annoying that he's doing this, but I don't see the big deal. I tell my father everything he asks me about you, it's just what you do" and Maedhros does not talk to him for a year.

(And when he does, pre-EoN, it's very icy).

12: How did the relationship end? Were they together until Fingon’s death, or did they break up before that?

IMO they were back together until Fingon's death! United front at the Union of Maedhros, fucking on the Map table, talking about their cute little plans once they win the war, etc etc. 13: Did they ever get back together after re-embodiment? If so, how did it happen?

Well, if you assume Maedhros gets reembodied... yes, because it's more fun and they're my OTP, haha.

Anyways, I think Maedhros is sort of a recluse post-reembodiment. Very much keeping to himself. Not convinced on the whole living thing. Having issues with himself and also everyone around him.

Fingon has been prepared to dramatically reject him (due to all the, you know, crimes) when he shows up at his doorstep, but... he just keeps not showing up at his doorstep. Which hurts -- they'd been together for centuries, and now Maedhros won't even give him the chance to throw a glass of wine in his face and tell him it was all for nothing. Did he not matter?

Anyways, Fingon starts doing things specifically to get Maedhros' attention (does he know that about himself? IDK. Not always.). These things include garishly competing in jousting tournaments, drunkenly serenading Valinor with Their Song, sucking Ingwion's dick in the public baths so everyone talks about it the next morning, etc etc. All of these things convince Maedhros that Fingon wants absolutely nothing to do with him, so he avoids Fingon harder.

Eventually circumstances force them together, romcom style, and naturally they hook up. And keep hooking up from there. Fingon dares you to say something about it.

(Sobbing regretful confessions of guilt come much later, and they get back together for real, but it takes them some time to get there).

[eri-pl]

LaCE (but not the part you think)

So everyone knows how "Laws and Customs of the Eldar" has things about elven marriage. But

It also has other, more interesting things. Namely, stuff about eElven souls. (Yes, I don't like shipping, I find it boring, your definition of "more interesting" may vary.)

bad: it has the version where Elves are reborn as babies, not reembodied as similar to when they died. I don't like this.

fine, but not fic-friendly: spirits in Mandos cannot talk with the living. I'm not saying they should a full-on social life, but I love the drama of "you have to talk through your situation with that person before you get reembodied", it's too useful sometimes.

extremely underutilized in fics and HCs: houseless spirits. Creepy elven ghosts who decided to not go to Mandos. And get more and more frustrated, and want to steal people's bodies. And Morgoth, and later Sauron and his top minions, can bind them via necromancy.

I'm not saying: ghost of Maedhros, but come on. (Some dark-ish ideas ahead)

He is so angry at Eonwe, he wouldn't want to have anything to do with the Valar. Anything. He would stay, wallowing in guilt, avoiding his brother whom he abandoned (do Elves see disembodied fear? If not, Mae could as well follow Maglor for some time. And/or E&E).

(Also, if he went to Mandos, wouldn't the Valar banish him into the Everlasting Darkness? He doesn't know.)

Anyway, spiralling into guilt and despair and anger. Trying to posess someone, to have a body to be able to help Maglor, who is messing himself up without him.

He refuses the call of Mandos all the time.

Slowly, the shadow grows... One day Maedhros hears a very different call, one he is not able to refuse. A familiar voice greets him, his elongated vowels sweet like poisonous honey. "Maitimo. It's been a long time since I had the pleasure..."

(ok, I'm not sure if it's canon-confirmed that Sauron was the one doing the torturing and not Morgoth himself but it's a popular assumprion) (Anyway, basically Thrangorodrim 2.0 but you are dead and Fingon isn't coming.)

[erdasmcnonsense]

Since @theminecraftbee gave me permission to do so last night - just to prove OP's point of these being common enough in other fandoms as well - let's see how many of these can I get hits on just in Tolkien fandom alone! (Tolkien fandom here defined as "all Middle-Earth books and also the most prominent live action fandoms, minus Rings of Power" because I haven't watched that and am trying my best to stay ignorant about it because the other option would be frothing at the mouth with rage bc of everything I think they did wrong, so I really don't know that part of things at all. I'm going to treat any material the fandom takes as given but that is sourced from HoME or NoME as confusing to the newcomer because frankly, they are, since a newcomer in Silm fandom is likely to have only read Silmarillion and /maybe/ Unfinished Tales and CoH but almost certainly hasn't read HoME. Anyway, that's still a narrower fandom, though more well-established with older roots, than mcyt fandom, given that mcyt is more like a genre with lots of different specific fandoms that have some overlap in the fanbase)

unintuitive duo names/ship and group names: just off the top of my head, Silvergifting (formed of the English translations of the names Celebrimbor and Annatar), Russingon (technically a traditional mashing two names together, except that the first name does not actually appear in Silmarillion-as-published and is only mentioned I think in one of the texts in HoME, so a newcomer is not going to know how you get "Russingon" out of "Maedhros/Fingon"), Angbang (Sauron/Morgoth, pun on the name of Morgoth's stronghold Angband). M&M and C&C (maedhros and maglor, celegorm and curufin). Also idk if it counts when it's technically a canon collective name, but Ambarussa, since again it comes from HoME.

reducing characters to a specific trait: given the inherent weirdness of a fandom where a lot of material is actually unfinished draft versions and notes and summaries and so a lot of characters aren't very fleshed out, there is an argument to be made that it's not reducing if the character didn't have other traits to begin with, and there's also definite overlap here with the "treating fanon as canon" point but...

-> Pippin written as just inattentive and chaotic with basically no ability to read the room or shut up

-> Denethor being only considered as an abusive dickhead (which, fine, he is that too, but still), without taking into account the themes of despair vs hope his character embodies, or his intelligence or strength of will or any of a number of other qualities of his the book shows or hints at.

-> For that matter, Thingol being reduced to a greedy powerhungry asshole

-> Celegorm and Curufin being reduced to the dumb jock and the smart guy. Also, Maglor as just the music guy, following his eldest brother around and basically never making his own choices.

common au fanon that's confusing to the outsiders: okay i can't actually think of anything that'd really fit this one well that's actually a fanon au - Tolkien fandom has its fair share of aus, but none of those really fit this. If you're a LOTR fan, not familiar with the Silm part of the fandom, I suppose "Maglor living in Rivendell in the Third Age" might qualify, that's something i see people do even in fics that aren't specifically about that

-> Also, a lot of long-time Silmarillion fans have a habit of cherrypicking their favorite elements from alternate, older discarded for something new, or just-not-the-one-christopher-preferred, versions of events, and then using those and leaving new fans to just figure out by themselves, if they can, whether something is 1) firmly held headcanon alteration of that specific person, 2) common fanon, or 3) actually something that's mentioned in some more obscure text they haven't read. It was literally years after I joined the fandom before I figured out that the "crispy Amrod version" was actually from an alternate canon text, instead of a popular fanon au.

fanon being treated as canon: Glorfindel's personality being "a golden retriever in elf form". Likewise, Erestor's personality being "super serious and stoic". (Honestly it's a bit of a chicken-or-egg question for me - are Glorfindel and Erestor written with those personalities because they're shipped and "blonde guy with golden retriever personality/super serious dark-haired guy" is a common and popular ship dynamic so their fanon personalities were made to fit, or are they shipped together because their fanon personalities were already being written as "elven golden retriever" and "serious guy" and that's a popular ship dynamic? I genuinely don't know. Also, actually, Undying Lands granting immortality to non-immortals! Like i'm pretty certain, although i could be wrong, that at least one version of the Fall of Númenor specifically says that even if humans were allowed in Undying Lands they still wouldn't gain immortality by living there and that presumably also applies to everyone else, but I've seen a lot of people writing post-LOTR hobbits in the Undying Lands stuff as though Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, and once he gets there, Gimli, would be immortal

characters being treated badly to make a different dynamic look better: Elwing, and to a lesser extent Eärendil, being portrayed as jerks, and as bad parents (sliding scale from simply neglectful to outright abusive) in order to make the Kidnap Fam dynamic look less messed up by comparison. Look, I like the Kidnap fam as much as the next person (although admittedly I personally like it a little bit fucked up, even though i also like it to have a good amount of sweet moments), but writing Elwing to be a selfish and abusive bitch just to justify the Kidnap fam being cute and fluffy is just pointless and mean.

characters being reduced to their family dynamics: okay i can't actually think of a good example to this, though i'm sure there are some. Unless you count Elladan and Elrohir often being written as having functionally the same personality and generally only showing up as a pair, but frankly the source material does the exact same thing with them too and it's very common (if irritating) way of writing identical twins in the first place, so I can't even muster the energy to be annoyed about it.

characters being reduced to their ships: I've seen this done with Fingon when shipped with Maedhros sometimes, and like... honestly I don't even feel the need to prove this point though I probably could find other examples, literally every fandom i've ever seen does this to some degree with some characters.

The Discourse: *sigh* who would have thought that a book about elves being war criminals and murdering other elves over a bunch of shiny rocks would generate insane amounts of discourse (sarcasm). Yeah I am so fucking tired of watching people fight over whether Thingol/Dior/Elwing should have given up the Silmaril or done this or done that. Also, all the nonsense that periodically pops up over whether Frodo or Sam is Actually The True Hero Of LOTR and nonsense about Frodo being weak or whatever. Also the eternal arm wrestling over whether the Valar are good or Actually Evil or what (they mean well but also fuck up and make poor choices a bunch, if you ask me)

so a thing this fandom does that remains FASCINATING to me, as a function of the fact a lot of this fandom is people's first fandom or only current fandom, is just... assume a lot of things it does is a scourge that this fandom has invented or doesn't exist outside of it? or like, is uniquely bad here? and i won't deny that sometimes mcyt fandom is a bit more intense by virtue of numbers, but like...

duo names: confusing fandom-injokes to describe duos and groups tend to be an anime fandom thing specifically for many historical reasons, but they're not uncommon. hey quick--if you haven't been in KHR fandom, can you guess what 1827 is? no? i'll give you a hint: that's actually a ship name. or, ygo fans, tell me the difference between puppyshipping, prideshipping, violetshipping, and rivalshipping. my hint is that they're all kaiba ships and two of them are actually the same ship. good luck!

reducing characters to a specific trait: have you read fic in another fandom before? i would recommend you go do so and come back to me. my example here is "sasuke likes tomatoes", for the record.

common au fanon that's confusing to outsiders: my deep cut here is "when i got into certain tv fandoms i was baffled by the existence of sentinel/guide fics", which is a slightly older tv fandom thing so many of you probably don't know what i'm on about. but trust me: in certain fandoms it's ubiquitous and unless you've watched a completely different tv show you're gonna have to entirely pick it up from reading fic. oh hey, hybrid aus and watcher!grian, nice to see your relative here,

fanon being treated as canon: did you know there's this whole bnha character, naomasa, who is treated as canonically having a lie detector quirk? did you know that, best i can tell, that's not in canon anywhere, it just got echoed through fanon enough that everyone treated it as canon? 'fanon trait becomes so ubiquitous everyone assumes it has to be there' is not a new thing. also, batfamily fans, i have been lead to understand the tim and coffee thing is also this.

characters being treated badly to make a different dynamic look better: the fact we have the term 'character bashing' tells you all you need to know, here. if anything my one complaint on this front isn't even that it's happening--it's that i wish bashing and/or "not [character] friendly" was tagged a little more frequently, haha.

characters being reduced to their family dynamics: tale as old as time. "even the family dynamic thing" yes even that. just because this fandom tended to be particularly ship-adverse in the past didn't mean it didn't do basically the same behaviors as any fandom with shipping did with those dynamics, just gen. and other gen fandoms also do that. yes, down to the "and shipping reduces them to a ship, unlike my gen dynamic, which is very in-character; why can't people just be friends?" thing. some of you have to have been marvel fans right.

characters being reduced to their ships: some of you have to have been marvel fans right.

The Discourse: yeah this is an "actively running show" fandom thing, but also a hiatus fandom thing. ask a homestuck about vriskourse sometime. as much as i hate to say it, it probably made doomsday discourse look cute.

and those are just like... some things i've seen people complain about on my dash recently. idk it just hit me there are probably fans in mcyt fandoms who are assuming that some things (like hybrid aus or duo names) are the kind of things that only happen here, so i thought i'd offer some examples of other places they happen! i also have even more examples if you'd like.

to be clear: this isn't shaming anyone for complaining about any of these things. lord knows i go complain to my friends about it all the time, just the other day i was complaining in the category of 'they keep bashing my guy'. it's more of just... a gentle reminder that maybe we're big, maybe we're loud, maybe we have problems... but these problems aren't always unique.

so uh. we're all suffering together i guess...?

[silmarillaure]

Amrod & Amras headcanons because they had so much potential.

They’re the youngest grandchildren of Finwe, so the king always had a soft spot for them, not that he wouldn’t have if they weren’t but them being the youngest made their bond with him extra special.

They were very playful back in the good old Valinor days and definitely tricked people tons about who was who.

Being hunters as well, they naturally looked up to Celegorm who they were the closest with out of their brothers apart from each other.

They are the second and third tallest of their brothers. They resemble Maedhros a lot but they’re much leaner.

Despite their status as princes, they were fairly humble since the were closer to Nerdanel growing up.

They were very close to their dad too given they swore an oath for him obviously but by elven standards, they were young when Melkor started getting into Feanor’s head and he began his downward spiral so more often than not Feanor was in a bad mood and the twins didn’t want to disturb him.

I prefer the version Amrod doesn’t die in the ships because the Silm is tragic enough as it is so I like to think Amrod gets burnt but doesn’t die.

I see Amrod’s personality changing a lot after this event. He once had a sunny personality but he becomes increasingly reclusive and flinches when touched, even by Amras.

This obviously affects his beloved twin as well who’s incredibly regretful over even coming to middle earth.

Neither exactly want the Silmarils, they swore an oath though and they’re too proud to break it. All they really want is to go home.

They would have loved Mirkwood if they ever saw the place though.

Neither are on good terms with their father when he dies. Amras was incredibly mournful and Amrod more apathetic, to him it seemed like his loving father was dead long before that point anyways.

Like all of Feanor’s sons though, they were haunted by his ghost for the rest of their lives.

They get reembodied together the first out of the Feanorians, if were only counting Feanor's sons of course because Celebrimbor would be reembodied far before them.

Before getting reembodied, they get closure with Feanor. They don’t exactly forgive him but he’s still their dad and they do love him.

[galadhremmin]

Do you think the elves ate eachother on the Helcaraxë, Franklin expedition style?

Well good morning to you too! I love asks like these. 😁

My answer is simply; if you want them to! And I do, because I'm fascinated by real polar expeditions, and also think they were very badly prepared for the Helcaraxë. They spent all their lives in Valinor, where there is no true winter at all; freezing is itself one of Melkor's influences on the world (which just shows how much Arda is Morgoth's Ring! And how sheltered they have been from the world).

The only people to have some experience with colder temperatures were likely the Fëanorians, given that Formenos is north near the halls of Mandos, and Fëanor was prone to wandering. Still that is nothing compared to the Helcaraxë, and they did not pack up with the intention of that journey. They thought they would sail on the Telerin ships.

So...there are notes on Elvish bodies in LaCE that indicate the older the elf the greater the dominance over the body by the spirit. But I think most of the Noldor willing to cross were likely to be fairly young. Still probably a lot of adults, so presumably with the ability to do things like walk on snow, go without food for a long time, and withstand a great deal more cold than any of us. Still, the Helcaraxë is a very harsh environment even for them, the arctic but cursed, so things even out.

Also, I'm fairly sure the Fëanorians stole their horses (in my personal interpretation of events). And some other goods. In WoJ the wording is specifically that Maedhros returns Fingolfin's goods to them, whereas in published Silm it's that he gave horses in atonement. I think I prefer the stolen horses, for the simple reason that Fëanor was trying to force Fingolfin to back off. Maedhros returning them is still atonement, after all.

Burning the ships was a political move; it prevented his rival king from following and contesting his leadership + prevented followers from giving themselves over to doubt about trying to go back if things got frightening, or going over to Fingolfin's side. He was not trying to force Fingolfin to cross the Ice. The Ice was supposed to be uncrossable. He was trying to force him to tuck his tail between his legs and crawl back to the Valar. That Fingolfin and his people crossed was quite the surprise! They did the supposedly impossible.

Anyway, if I wanted to force my rival to crawl back I'd steal his extra blankets and food to encourage a swift journey back to temperate Tirion. It just makes sense.

Which is to say.

Fingolfin's host entered the Helcaraxë entirely unprepared. A lot of people died. We don't even know if anything remotely edible lived there; that is, except for their fallen comrades.

There is a note on Elvish bodies just sort of swiftly disappearing after death, which just means they'd have to be very quick about it! Unless the unnatural cold of the Helcaraxë prevents that somehow, which I prefer tbh. There is drama in not even being able to let the body cool, though...

Something I'm fascinated by is how Elves might see a sort of horror version of their tendency to want to arrest change/time, to 'embalm' as Tolkien put it in his letters in the freezing temperatures of the Helcaraxë. If you've ever seen human remains found in the arctic you know what I mean; I find them very touching myself. Their faces are preserved, their clothes...it's as if there is suddenly very little distance between you and someone on the other side of the gulf of time. Maybe they even found it inspiring in a way, saw a perverted version of something that they could accomplish in the changing world of Middle Earth in it...elvish cryogenics of very early Eregion, before they really learned to arrest change without freezing or arresting life? Many ideas...

Anyway you should watch The Terror if you're into arctic cannibalism haha. It was a good series!

[elvesofnoldor]

.

[rivalsforlife]

Finally Making A Post Of Everything I’ve Ever Thought During The First Two Episodes Of Rings Of Power. I was going to do it sooner but wasn’t doing well for a weekend and then forgot. SO here it is to add to the Tolkien Adaptation Opinions pile while I delay going back to the jackson hobbit movies.

Please keep in mind this (and other posts I’ll make about this show) will have spoilers for stuff that will happen later that’s in the books, on the off chance a) people are reading this b) people don’t know what happens in the books and don’t want to be spoiled for it happening in the show. okay. here it is. This is mostly for me, please don’t feel obligated to read it got really long and rambly.

I’ll try to keep this coherent and go chronologically somewhat but I don’t feel like watching two hours again so I’m going off of memory. I’ll try to be more on top of it for the next episode haha.

SO honestly I wasn’t feeling it for a while but luckily I warmed up to it a bit more as it went on. I wasn’t a fan of the other elves bullying Galadriel in the beginning since she’s like... their princess. (Unless they’re sons of Feanor. I DID spot a redhead. I’m assuming that’s either Amrod or Amras since Maedhros should be quite significantly older than her.) I’ve read stuff since saying that it’s alluding to the kinslaying despite the part where they can’t use the kinslaying since it isn’t mentioned in the appendices and I can appreciate that but it just came off kind of odd to me.

Crazy we got to see Finrod though!! He... did not look how I expected. But honestly I don’t think there will ever be an adaptation that will do the Silm Elves the way I imagine them, except maaaybe if it were animated. I did laugh at the “I won’t always be here to tell them to you” “You won’t?” bit because I do think it’s in character for Mr. “AN OATH TOO I SHALL SWEAR AND MUST BE FREE TO FULFILL IT AND GO INTO DARKNESS”. finrod man can you have a normal conversation with galadriel for once.

Also like I mentioned in my immediate fairly spoiler-free opinions post I made just after I got back from seeing it in the theaters, it is weird seeing them skip over my favorite parts of my favorite book. “We left Valinor and went to Middle-Earth” YEAH A LOT HAPPENED IN BETWEEN THERE. but it’s fine. It’s not a Silm adaptation. It’s fine. It’s fine........

Oh also I did start getting a little teary when I saw the trees, but it was too brief for me. I think if they had a longer scene with the trees and the beauty of Valinor before Morgoth destroyed them it would have Hit a little bit more, but I’ll live.

The main Problem I have is that they seemingly changed Finrod’s death. Or at least didn’t talk about him dying to protect Beren, which I really think is an important thing to keep in given the Ring of Barahir (formerly Finrod’s) is an heirloom of some of the Numenoreans, and if you’re having Galadriel go there why not capitalize on that!! Plus him going after Sauron felt kinda... unnecessary. I think you could totally have Galadriel desiring revenge against Sauron without Finrod also having that vendetta. Like, “My brother was captured and tormented by Sauron” would be vague enough but also consistent with canon. I kind of wonder why they did it that way... 

Anyways I should take this opportunity to talk about The #Girl Of All Time. I like that they didn’t shy away from making her proud and headstrong. Though they did change her motivations to something more relatable than the version I prefer which is the “I want to stay here and rule my own kingdom, because I am more powerful here”. And honestly I’m kind of vibing with it. Like, I love Aragorn, they completely changed him in the Jackson movies, but I still really liked his character in spite of it being different. So I can go with Galadriel here.

The main parts that bugged me about the Galadriel parts is kind of... her status among the elves. Particularly her relationship with Gil-galad. I get GG is the High King and such but Galadriel is his... aunt. cousin once removed. relative who is older than him. who knows. but you don’t get that impression, and she can’t even really go and talk to him herself. Overall GG is the one I’ve been most disappointed by so far, and I’m really hoping that changes as we learn his motivations more, because I really do want to be sad when he dies. I want to be able to potentially accept him as the son of one of my favorite characters. And so far I’m not feeling it.

Elrond too came off a little bit too... insincere at times. Particularly in the first episode. Too politician-y in particular. Which is honestly a major letdown for me considering that I loved all the interviews his actor did. I’m hoping, again, that gets better -- I did like him more in the second episode, so hopefully it was just a bit of a rough start.

ALSO. THE HUAN STATUE. I’m assuming that’s Luthien with him!!! That’s such a nice reference I love it. I also saw a video pointing out another statue seemingly depicting an elf holding the dragon helm of dor-lomin and theorizing it’s FINGON which is also very emotional. Other theories are that it’s Beleg. We didn’t get a close-up shot like the one with Huan so I can’t tell if there’s seemingly “plaits braided with gold” there. but maaaaan fingon :( still the silm death that gets me the most.

Let’s see what else... Galadriel going to Valinor was on my “I Do Not Want This” list. but I think they did it about as well as they could. I get they’re trying to have a representation of her refusal to go to Valinor that’s not just her standing there and saying “I refuse”, and trying to fully capture like the weight of what it means to her to refuse that call, and I can stand by that even though I don’t like the circumstances that she was kind of forced into it by GG and Elrond. The Golden Portal-looking thing felt a little much though it didn’t bother me as much as it bothered my dad. And I didn’t mind her jumping into the ocean honestly. I don’t think it was a calculated decision at all. It was out of desperation to avoid going to Valinor no matter what. like Amroth, which is fitting, though Galadriel got luckier.

... Stuff other than Noldor happened in this first episode too but I have far less opinions on them. 

Harfoots: They’re cute. I like how they still have some of that Hobbit flavor to them with the gossipy ladies. They aren’t my favorite parts because I am tragically whipped for anything Noldor-related, but they’re so far a perfectly fine part of the story.

I’ll just do the episode 2 stuff here since I don’t really have much more to say on specific events. The Stranger... I don’t think he’s Sauron. Though he clearly is a Maiar of some sort. I don’t want him to be Gandalf? I’ll be fine with him being a Blue Wizard. One theory I have going around my head (though I’m not sold on it) is that he’s a maiar of some sort who got tortured by Sauron and escaped in the meteor somehow. I think he’s lost control over his powers which is the cause of the firefly killing thing. It’s interesting how his arrival kind of coincides with Galadriel refusing the call, plus all the stuff GG says about Galadriel inadvertently awakening evil, but I think it would be too much for him to be Sauron right now. I really don’t want Sauron interacting with Hobbits or pre-Hobbits because I think that really takes away from the later third age stuff. so... yeah.

I did have Tom Bombadil as my joke theory but I think he’s way too troubled for him. So... maybe someday Tom :( I believe in you. You’ll get into something that isn’t the bad Soviet TV adaptation of Fellowship or Lego LOTR.

Southlands: It’s an interesting concept considering my immediate reaction to hearing that their ancestors sided with Morgoth was along the lines of “THAT FUCKER ULFANG THAT GOT FINGON KILLED.” so I can buy the elves holding a grudge. It’s an interesting thing with the elves distinctly remembering these people who did things that messed up pretty much everything, and sided with Morgoth, in their own living memory, while for the humans this was a thousand(s) years ago and there’s really no reason for them to still be there.

I don’t love the romance, but I didn’t expect to, because I don’t normally go for those things. The one elf made a comment of “there were only two elf-human romances and they both ended in tragedy” well.......... I get you could argue beren and luthien had a tragic ending but honestly compared to the rest of the first age that’s the happiest ending you can get. And Idril and Tuor are totally fine, the Fall of Gondolin stuff wasn’t really their fault. Think this elf guy needs to brush up on his history :/

Also there’s Aegnor and Andreth which definitely was tragic enough to not actually become a marriage, that’s kind of how I feel this Arondir-Bronwyn thing is going to turn out. (though I think Bronwyn is more likely to die first than Arondir). The kid is definitely a future Nazgul candidate with that sword with the Sauron mark on it. ummm what else. oh yeah they talk about how they had a king that’s going to come back. My bets are either on Halbrand or Theo being descendants/heirs of that king. And then whoever is the heir is absolutely going to be a Nazgul. I was debating if Halbrand could be Theo’s long lost father but honestly I think that’s unlikely, Halbrand mentioned being from the other village that got destroyed, so.

Not loving Halbrand right now either he hasn’t made much of an impression. Hopefully that gets better.

hmmm while we’re talking about Southlands stuff I liked the fight with the orc. It’s a good baseline for how dangerous orcs are for people who aren’t trained fighters! 

ANYWAYS BACK TO THE NOLDOR. CELEBRIMBOR. I was so mad about this because I hated the first picture released of Celebrimbor like I was crushed, but the actor nailed it for me in those five minutes he was around. Right from “true creation requires sacrifice” to the passive-aggressive comments about Gil-galad to the gushing about the dwarves and wanting to see them at work. All fantastic. I just wish he didn’t look like that I’m sorry mr charles edwards. Now I’m sure I’ll get over it eventually.

Anyways, in more detail, I was clutching my popcorn and kind of swinging my legs when they were talking about it being Feanor’s hammer. Forced exposition? I don’t care! They’re talking about Feanor! Every time Feanor is mentioned I’m imagining like... you know that one blind guardian tides of war song where they’re regularly going “FEAAAANOOOOR” that’s what’s going on my head every time I think of him along with pillars of fire and strobe lights. (If you’re still reading this I’m amazed.) I love that Celebrimbor has that hammer. I also liked their little exchange with Elrond talking about the Silmarils being things that created “so much beauty........ and so much pain” and Celebrimbor going “true creation requires sacrifice” THE SACRIFICE OF ELROND’S MOM AND DAD AND YOUR DAD AND UNCLES? I liked that little bit. So much fun. 

And honestly I liked the little invented story about Morgoth and the Silmarils. I don’t think it’s meant for us to take it as canon. But it is a little bit of myth that I do think Celebrimbor would latch onto. And then the “but I aspire to do far more than that” YES! BRING ME THAT CRAZY FEANORIAN ENERGY!!!

Also why do you need that forge done by Spring, mr celebrimbor... I do think it would be a lot of fun if Sauron-as-Annatar is already here. Everyone’s like Halbrand is Sauron! The Stranger is Sauron! No he’s already here he’s already talking about some nice powerful rings. 

The little comment about “The High King... cannot provide that, so he sent me you instead!” with that pained smile. I WANT NOLDOR INFIGHTING. It’s some of the best Silm parts. As the last representative of the house of Feanor Celebrimbor has to bring it against Gil-galad who is either of the House of Fingolfin or the House of Finarfin. I get Celebrimbor isn’t as extreme but a little lingering bit of that old family resentment would be sooo cool to hint at. Especially since like... who does this guy think he is! We don’t even know who is dad is! And he’s going around being the High King! (Like I said I don’t like GG so far.)

Anyways I hope we get Narvi eventually and we get to see him work with Celebrimbor making the Doors of Durin. I want to watch that Star of Feanor get carved into it. Again Celebrimbor has been here for five minutes but he’s my favorite so far, which is deeply embarrassing. I have not improved from being fifteen. I see a Feanorian and I’m spellbound. I liked how excited he was about the dwarves. It felt VERY Feanorian. I know some of them worked with the dwarves and in particular I think Feanor would have loved those guys. So Celebrimbor kind of felt the most... I don’t know how to put it. Enthusiastic. Which he should be! Totally sold on him. And I am SO relieved about that, you have no idea, that I’m willing to set aside the appearance concerns.

okay I should probably talk about the dwarves and not just what Celebrimbor thinks of the dwarves. They’re lots of fun. I do wonder where this Elrond-Durin friendship thing came from? It’s an interesting choice. Khazad-dum is beautiful, I liked the relationship between Durin and Disa, so I overall don’t have any complaints here. But I also don’t have a ton to gush about because I’m not as crazy about dwarves as I am about the Noldor. You may be able to tell.

What DOES interest me is what’s in that box at the end... it looks glowy. The obvious and simplest and best answer is that it’s Mithril. Maybe they just found it in Khazad-dum. The absolute batshit theory that’s in my head (along with the “Maglor is in this” and “the Stranger is Tom Bombadil” theories) is that it’s a Silmaril. It would be Maedhros’s Silmaril. That would break me beyond repair. It would also be really bad and really funny. If it IS a Silmaril I want nothing less than Elrond going “PUT THAT THING BACK WHERE IT CAME FROM OR SO HELP ME.” but obviously it’s going to be mithril. 

... okay the thing is when I saw this in theaters I THOUGHT I heard the Valinor leitmotif when they opened the box which would definitely be a Silmaril hint, but when I rewatched when it was actually out it definitely was not that, but had some of the notes that play when you’re in Celebrimbor’s place, which is definitely more fitting for it being mithril, so crisis averted. 

uh does that cover everything? I think that covers everything I had immediate opinions on. I didn’t take notes for this which I probably should have done... well. Episode 3 is next, it’s actually surprisingly common for me to get hooked on stuff on episode 3, so I’m hoping they do that for me. It’s definitely numenor time this time which will be fun. earendil statue here I come! and maybe we’ll get to see something about that cult of morgoth eventually.

But an overall summary of my thoughts so far:

The Best: Celebrimbor

The Good: Dwarves, Harfoots, Southlands, Galadriel (with some reservations on her storyline)

The Mediocre: Elrond

The Uhh I Hope We Fix This Quick: Gil-galad

Overall I’d put it at about a 7/10. Lots of stuff I’m excited for or am at least wiling to hear out until they fully convince me about it. I’m a bit put off by some of the changes to lore re: Finrod, Gil-galad presumably forcing people to go to Valinor. But they’ve still got some time to go to convince me of that.

Look the only other adaptation that’s covering some second-age stuff we have is the Shadow of Mordor/War games talking about Celebrimbor. So as long as they do better than that (which is not hard!) I will be content. That’s my baseline and so far they are well above it ESPECIALLY on the celebrimbor front. 

I’ve been typing for an hour. I’m going to stop now. Thanks for bearing with me and if you actually read all that... incredible. Have a virtual cookie from me.

[outofangband]

yeah, i kinda wanna hear - what are your general headcanons for domesticated/working/tamed animals in angband? i would be very surprised if it was just the wolves and the dragons

(In response to this post!)

Angband World Building and Aftermath of Captivity Masterlist 

The wolves are interesting. I headcanon there are about five genetically distinct species of wolves that are cultivated by Sauron. Not all these can interbreed with each other though some can. 

Two of these species can interbreed with elves though this is rare and requires massive intervention.  Most attempts still fail. 

I talked about the captives and the wolves a bit here 

These are different from wild wolves like gray and timber wolves which are actually used by some of the orcs who live apart from the fortress. 

So I have this rather bizarre headcanon that a variety of sheep is domesticated in the orcish communities especially those who don’t travel for battles and don’t live in the main part of the fortress 

The “sheep” are used for labor (this species is bulkier and stronger and significantly larger than the average farm sheep) as well as for food and materials.

Obviously this is a heavily altered species as they do not require grazing lands and instead are fed scraps as well as various fungi that grow in the caverns. I have a few alternate theories of how they came to be but I don’t think they were artificially modified much but instead are a species native to the mountains and caves of the region

These and the smaller species of wolves are the most generally domesticated (note though that the wolves are not tame) but different factions of the fortress have other animals that are used (bats, larger lizards like monitors, etc) among them

Fungi is cultivated for food and gathered along with other organic matter (I go into this a bit more in this post!). Gardens as the elves would describe them are rare but not unheard of though most of what grows in these scarce places are medicinal rather than edible, if not actively poisonous. As suicide is always a risk among the prisoners, access to these is heavily restricted to the small group of Maiar who serve Sauron. 

Pets and animal companions:

Some of the elven prisoners who have been in captivity for decades and decades and are more or less loyal (or at least effectively so, whether or not they actually feel loyal) and who are actively working against the Noldorin armies and their allies are allowed animal companions.

This is an offer that is often very effective in getting otherwise passive prisoners to take a more active role serving their captors. Indeed Mairon notes it is often more of an incentive than anything else offered.

Especially in the mines where there is less ability to supervise every prisoner at all times, many of them have transactional relationships with small animals such as bats, fire salamanders or cave lizards (a species that @aronoiiel created!)

The slave gives the creature food and in return gets tiny bits of interaction with something not interested in their oppression and misery.

In one of my verses, Maedhros befriends a small baby dragon. I haven’t written about them in awhile because they’re undergoing some changes and The exact way they are befriended I once again have like ten alternate versions though in many he uses his Fëa to nourish them whether or not he chooses to do this differs

Anyways I apologize for how rambling this got!

Also I hope it’s ok to tag you but @foxleycrow just posted an absolutely amazing piece regarding Túrin and a baby dragon that everyone should see!! (Túrin isn’t in Angband but the dragon is from there)

[halfelven]

The post is from June, but you posted about Elrond meeting Earendil again and seeing his scars, and Earendil asking “were you loved enough?” Anyway, I kind of interpreted that to mean that Mae and Mags must have loved the twins in their own way? Or that Earendil knows Elrond may have some attachment to them? I’m rambling but I was wondering what your headcanons about how Earendil/Elwing/The Twins etc feel about everything that happened? I know people have different interpretations of Sirion/afterward, and I like to hear other people’s thoughts :)

I know you probably weren’t asking for an almost 4,000 word ‘essay’ but you hit one of my special interests (seriously I could go about this forever) Okay I wrote out like my reasoning first but I’m going to put it after because it’s long and concentrate first on the questions asked with longer explanations and thoughts below.

So yes, Eärendil was talking about Elrond being loved enough, especially in childhood, especially by Maglor and Maedhros, since he had to leave him and was never allowed to return to him. So here are my headcanons (and places where I’m not entirely sure on what version I like best...) for the aftermath and how it goes over the long years:

Elrond never forgets the violence he saw on the attack on Sirion. He is more desperate to live afterwards, and is the one who leans faster to Maglor and Maedhros, trying to get them to keep them alive, being fed, etc. He also allows himself to be ‘comforted’ in whatever way Maglor can manage. It’s not much. Maglor’s a mess. He’s choking out apologies and unable to answer the question ‘will you kill us’ because he doesn’t know. All he can say is he’s sorry.

Elrond never forgets this. He is faster to lean into Maglor’s love when it is given, but he never forgets that people will do desperate things that they would never dream of until they’re pushed. It leaves him the sort of person who will say things like, ‘don’t ask someone how they survived unless you’re prepared to hear the answer.’ And when people say they would never, never do something terrible or cowardly no matter what situation they’re in, he’s just like ‘you don’t know that.’ Hence why the fellowship of the ring weren’t bound by oath to their quest.

Based on Bilbo’s poem on Eärendil, I like to think that Elrond had some contact with Eärendil either during the war or after it, though I don’t have a firmly set idea for exactly when Elrond and Elros get joined with Gil-galad’s people. I do like to think that Eärendil was the one who told them about their choice of mortality or immortality and that he was allowed to at least see or speak to them, even though he isn’t allowed to return home. Ever. As punishment for saving the world…

Elros gets really fucked up by the attack as well. He resists loving Maglor and Maedhros longer. He is very protective of Elrond because he sees a gentleness in Elrond that he knows but also doesn’t know. He’s also gentle, but he has a desperation of not having enough time that Elrond never has. Elrond sees pieces of a future that Elros isn’t in. Elros think he’s going to die. He thinks they’ll both die. He hates that he pities the despair in Maglor’s eyes until he doesn’t. Then he realises he’s older, and he knows suddenly he’s going to make a choice he might regret and he’ll trust to something he doesn’t know for sure – that when he dies there will be a peace in the end. He begs Maglor and Maedhros to seek for forgiveness from Eru. He begs them. He says there is no way that Eru or the Valar would rather they continue to kill for the Silmarils. That there is a way that their words will be heard. He knows it. He has a faith that Elrond never has. He fights with Maglor and Maedhros. Elrond does too. They both grow up too quickly.

Neither of them ever hate anyone completely, not even Morgoth. Not even Sauron. They grew up watching their captors (their fathers) falling to pieces around them, dying as they lived, hopeless, despairing, the world torn to pieces, the sea flooding lands, on the run, captive, loved, thrown around, hungry, starving, praying to their father because they both felt him in the Star of High Hope.

When Maglor and Maedhros choose to kill for the Silmarils in their last despair and Maedhros dies and Maglor disappears, they both go into mourning. Everyone is in mourning. No one asks them for an explanation.

Eärendil sees they are alive for the first time from the heavens when they are little children still with Maglor, and he weeps with joy that they are alive. He can’t stand. He weeps and watches them. He knows he will never set foot on their land again. (And he fights in the war, and Elros fights beneath his banner, and Elrond beneath Gil-galad’s and they are too young, but he was younger, and nothing about it is fair, so he’s just glad they’re alive.)

(They meet Gil-galad’s host in a battle? Maglor finds a safe way to send them away because they’ll be safer then? They run away? I wish we had more concrete answers on this but I haven’t made up my mind what happens with them yet.)

I like to think there is a way that Eärendil saw them before he left back to the skies. If he had real wings, as Bilbo wrote, that he carried them up to the heavens and spoke on his ship, but there is a nature to tragedy that might make that just a dream. (Or it might be real. He floats on angel’s wings and lifts his children – one for the last time, but he had thought before it was the last time, so it is enough.)

Of course, Elros would never see his mother again. He does hear how she convinced the shipbuilders to make the ships. He loves her. He loves Eärendil. He loves Elrond. But his duty lies with the mortals who he feels connected to, who have faced so much, died in such great numbers. He sends her his love. So does Elrond.

Elrond chooses to live forever because he sees a vision of hands he holds, he sees grey-eyed babies in his arms, and lives he will save. He sees a life that will be riddled with pain, but he thinks he is strong enough to endure it. Besides, all choices of the world have their own griefs.

And maybe it aches inside Elrond and Elros because they know that they aren’t as important as the world, but they know they aren’t. It’s a tragedy, after all. If Eärendil didn’t leave, they would be dead. If Elwing didn’t have the Silmaril when she jumped, they would be dead. There’s something noble in being able to give up everything you love to save the world. There’s something bitter in being the loved one left behind. It hurts, but so do many things.

When Elros dies, Elrond is there. And Eärendil and Elwing watch from his ship and weep together again for the death of one of their children, for sure this time. Eärendil wonders if he will ever meet Elros again. Maybe, maybe, at the end of the world. Maybe he will be free then, no longer bound to carrying light through the darkest and coldest parts of the sky, watching the pain and joy of a world he cannot reach. (I’m going to write Frodo meeting Eärendil soon. I know it.)

When Elrond leaves the grey havens, Eärendil watches, follows their ship. He can touch the ground of Valinor, so he can hold Elrond again. And he wants to know if Elrond was loved enough. If he was, if he was. If Maglor or Maedhros or anyone could give him enough love, and Elrond says he did, softly, though the love he got was patches and pieces, and it wasn’t enough, not really, and they left (Maglor left.) But he doesn’t say it out loud because his father is there but he’s also like a stranger, and his body is scarred because he nearly died fighting in the sky over a land he could not reach, as punishment for saving it.

It’s a tragedy. He doesn’t say that either.

When he first sees his mother her runs to her and hugs her so that she won’t question if he loves her. He does. Even in the distant way that it is, it is love. Maybe not how one loves a mother, but it’s enough, all in all, isn’t it? So he says, ‘I love you.’ and kisses her, and she weeps, and he weeps too, and that’s the first meeting.

And later he asks her, he has to ask her, why she left, why she didn’t try to save the. She thought he was dead. She thought he would be dead. It’s long and complicated and those are questions you aren’t supposed to ask (how did you survive? You don’t ask that, remember?)

She thought they were dead. Both dead. She threw herself into the sea on the chance that there was mercy from the Valar. She was right. She was right.

And it worked. It saved them. It saved the world. And there’s nothing else to it, in the end. What’s done is done.

Elrond hopes he’ll stop breaking down crying over everything lost, over everything taken, over everything, but he never does. It’s a tragedy. And Eärendil sails the frozen skies, and sometimes Elrond goes with him for he can endure the cold. He’s strong enough. And his sons, too.

It’s still a tragedy, no matter what light you paint it in, but the light of the Silmaril might be the most beautiful of all.

Here are my reasonings:

okay so I wish tumblr would let me tag answers before I post them but I’m gonna talk a bit about childhood trauma, child abuse, suicide, and unplanned pregnancy

(side note here that I pick and choose literally anything I like from the silm or home since I read the unfinished tales and the book of lost tales before the silmarillion and I can’t always remember which version of the story is from which) 

anyway, in this case, the “were you loved enough” is mostly relating to their childhood since Eärendil left them when they were very young. 

(by my calculations that I’m not getting into a lot of depth here with but draws from ages of elves, ages of mortal humans, and ages of the rangers would put Elrond and Elros at approximately 1 year old in human terms when he leaves and approximately 3 years old when they are captured. 

this ALSO makes Eärendil and Elwing a child marriage but I can’t see how they wouldn’t be given that Gilraen is mostly mortal and was still considered young to marry at 24 (which like I’m not going into the whole thing of how that connects to Tolkien’s personal relationship with marriage and his wife but it’s an interesting little note)) 

this also puts Eärendil and Elwing as teenage parents/rulers and Eärendil equivalently a teenager when he leaves on his search for Valinor and both of them in their early 20s when they do reach Valinor

(again this is based on a lot of estimates of aging for half-elves that we don’t have full answers to, but it does carry into how I view the entire situation)

anyway any way it comes out, they are extremely young parents (I also think that the pregnancy wasn’t planned, given their situation and the war and it happened in such a way because they didn’t realise Elwing, being partly mortal, wasn’t as in control of her body as elves seem to be and got pregnant in the middle of a war where they were all felt like they were doomed to die.) 

so these teenagers, basically, are trying to keep their people together and from losing all hope and etc. and Eärendil now has babies that he has to leave because the world is ending and they’re all going to die and his only chance at saving them is to go on a suicide mission to beg for help, even though he’s a direct descendent of the cursed Noldor and also would know that no attempts to reach Valinor have been successful and also pretty much all end in almost everyone drowning (not going to go into an essay on the connections between Eärendil and Frodo’s characters right now but there’s a Lot) 

so Eärendil looks at the world falling to Morgoth and that they have not enough strength to save themselves says basically I’m going to save the world or I’m going to die trying and leaves his young family in the hopes that somehow they’ll be able to live, even if that means without him 

so now we have Elwing, a young single mother basically, with twins, trying to keep her people from dying and losing all hope with the One thing that she thinks might protect them being the Silmaril and her people agree

now this is taking place in a world with curses and holy objects, ropes that burn, swords that glow around enemies, rings of power, etc. so when she says this Silmaril is holy and burns all evil that touches it she’s like actually right because we see that the Silmarils were hallowed and do burn everything evil that touches them 

kind of want to do another side-note here that it includes “mortal” flesh alongside evil and so forth which is Interesting “ Varda hallowed the Silmarils so that no mortal or evil hands were allowed to touch them without being burned and withered.” like Okay Then I guess mortals are evil or unholy~ 

(headcanon that Elros touched the Silmaril after he already chose mortality and it didn’t burn him) 

anyway so we have the half-elves, half or part mortals (!!!) trying to save the world or keep their people alive while also having babies in the middle of a war where they all are doomed (I could write an entire thesis on “fool’s hope” in Tolkien and the concept of “sisu” in Finnish culture but I won’t here) 

then the Fëanorians are like hey, Elwing you must give us this Silmaril the only thing you think will save your family and people and also we’re the people who killed your family/people and threw you out of your home but now give us this holy object that you’re praying will save you all from dying 

and Elwing is like um no I don’t want my people and family to die??? and doesn’t give it to them 

(could write another essay on how people blame Elwing for being attacked and how that is often deeply rooted in sexism bc it’s always like “hey how could this woman have prevented herself from being attacked” rather than “hey maybe this army shouldn’t have attacked these civilian refugees” and I’m not going into how people justify Boromir’s despair turning him to grasp for an unholy but still powerful object with force of violence for the literal same thing of “save my people” and are still like Elwing brought this on herself) 

so yeah they get attacked and all that Elwing has the Silmaril and throws herself into the sea, turns into a bird, etc. and then flies to Eärendil and becomes herself again. this is interesting because it means she had the Silmaril with her and also that she... threw herself into the sea without any real plan (also that very few people survived that attack) she also knew her sons had been taken but didn’t try to bargain for them with the Silmaril, which is interesting, but given that her brothers were killed by these people, she probably wouldn’t think they could be bargained with and since she thinks her sons are slain and there’s confusion in the battle I’m guessing that the Fëanorians didn’t offer a bargain? 

it’s a really confusing and messy battle with some of the Fëanorian’s soldiers turning against them because of the cruelty of it which is another Interesting point (because like they’re already the hated. where are they going after? do they get pardoned now? do they think they will? like I keep going off on side notes but this is really fascinating)  

but anyway I’m reading it like it’s a very messy battle, they’re probably taken by surprise, most of them die bc again most are civilians, Elrond and Elros seem to be taken quite fast, Elwing knows they are taken and thinks them dead, and then jumps into the sea (which is like... Elrond’s parents really lean into suicide) which is like really desperate and seems to be either she has a bit of foresight (runs in the family) and thinks she won’t die and the Silmaril is needed or she thinks they’ve lost everything and will all die, her sons are dead, so she’s going to die too and hopefully the tides will take her and the Silmaril away from them forever so they at least don’t get that 

okay so that’s how I view the attack on Sirion. like absolutely fucked up, despair on both sides and I know this is long but this is one of my favourite things to talk about 

okay so that’s where Elrond and Elros are taken. again because I like to pull things from different drafts, I go with the Maglor and Maedhros both take to them. (I’m really against the interpretations of Maedhros wanting to kill them bc I literally can’t imagine him wanting to kill Fingon’s great grand nephews. like even at that point. there’s no way I can picture it since he still is able to talk reasonably/rationally his points of why they have to do these terrible things or they will be forever doomed. I don’t have time to get into the theology here but it’s Fascinating as well) 

Elrond and Elros are somewhere around three years old in human terms but they’re half elves and part Maiar and we know that elves alone are able to talk well by one year old and have amazing memories and they’re six so I’m going with they are Aware they are captured and do have memories of their parents (though they can’t remember what Eärendil looks like)

However children are programmed to survive. and for reasons I will not get into in great depth but like this is where the warning for real life child trauma comes in I have taken care of children who were less than two hours before taken away from their parents by the police at gun point (also I was 17 so it is a bit fucked up all the way around) and yeah like it’s...

it’s literally like at one moment they’ll be like “I need food” and a minute later “are you going to kill me?” and Very protective of one another even though they /know/ they need you so it’s like this very fucked up point where kids will be grasping for help from people who they think might also kill them

it’s also noted that the love between them doesn’t come right away and grows after, which makes sense, since Elrond and Elros probably would have been at first like please keep us alive and Maglor is very sick in his heart from the oath and the violence and evil he’s committed

but yes that they do grow to love one another. there’s a gap of four years before Eärendil and Elwing reach Valinor during which they still think their children are dead, and then Eärendil refuses any of his crew (and Elwing) to set foot on the shore because he thinks that it will be death and he doesn’t want anyone but himself to die (again, they lean so hard into the suicide) and of course there Elwing refuses to part from him and also goes on shore but the rest of his crew never see them again (not really noted what happens to them. I’m assuming they go back to Middle-earth) but anyway my point here is that Elrond and Elros both really take after their parents in terms of like sheer bravery. And also fascinating that Elwing is immediately like if you die I die, and Eärendil later wishes to die as a mortal but takes immortality for his wife’s sake. 

Anyway the point of all this is that they love each other in a desperate way that is like on a level of tragedy with any of the great myths of our world. there’s another three years before the hosts of Valar reach Middle-earth after this and then a really long war and it is unclear at what point Elrond and Elros return to their own people (well, what’s left of them…). But they would be under Maglor’s care for at least seven years and most likely longer

anyway I know Tolkien has messy timelines and everything but there’s a slight problem in that Elrond mentions in the fellowship that he saw the hosts of Valinor and all their glitter and beauty but he also has enough memory of Maedhros and Maglor and the sickness of their hearts. So I don’t have an actual concrete timeline in my head that’s like canon on when and how they part from Maedhros and Maglor. I switch it all the time.

What I do have concretely is the idea that Elrond and Elros love their parents and count Eärendil, Elwing, Maglor, and Maedhros as their parents. (there’s also quite a bit of like subtext or just blatant Fëanorian symbolism in both Elros and Elrond’s symbols and associations that can back up they do count themselves as Fëanorians in some ways)

However Elrond has so much Eärendil symbolism in his household also that I don’t think he’s like “fuck you. You abandoned me.” notably with his daughter named after the evening star, and that he and his sons both wear white gems on their heads like Eärendil (both mentions are in rotk iirc)

I also don’t go with the idea of either of them hating Elwing for abandoning them either or the idea that she valued the Silmaril over the lives of her children or people. Again, it seems like she thought they were dead (like y’know her brothers.) And both Eärendil and Elwing have incredibly rough childhood trauma so it does feel slightly strange that Elwing decided to be counted as the Eldar (it just says “because of Lúthien” so maybe she thought she had to balance out Lúthien’s death?) And then Eärendil for his love of her chooses the same. Which is interesting because it goes back to the whole she chose to die with him when jumping after him into the foam and then the shore. Which is like just another side-note but mmm it hurts so bad that they were punished for all of that. Also Elwing is the one who convinces the Teleri to create enough boats and sail them over the seas to send the hosts of Valinor to save the world, even if the Teleri will just sail the ships and not themselves fight. Like, she has an important part in the whole “saving the world” that I don’t see often mentioned.

Also unless Bilbo was just making things up or it was metaphorical, both Elwing and Eärendil have wings and can fly (Eärendil’s wings coming from Varda, Elwing’s coming from learning from birds.) Just very cool that Elrond’s family is so associated with birds and flight (and Lúthien being called “nightingale” is just fun for me since a nightingale was my first part in a play.)

[armenelols]

I'm properly bored as well lol. Bored enough and unable to find excitement in anything else, so I started making aesthetics.

Anyways. Hope your day's going well.

Here's my ask: what are your headcanons about the dynamic & relationship between Maglor and Maedhros?

Oh boy this is going to be long

When I got this ask I actually started writing a one-shot about them but my attention span is short so it ended up once again unfinished in my drafts :D it kinda shows through this post because I kept falling into my weird storytelling mode

Thus the reason it took me so long to answer lol

SO

The short version: out of the feanorian bunch, Maedhros and Maglor have always been the closest to each other. It doesn't change with time, even when they do.

The longer version has gotten very much out of hand, I strayed off topic several times, forgot to mention half of the things I wanted to but here go:

Maedhros is the oldest of Finwë's grandchildren, so I imagine him being very close to Maglor, as I headcanon them close in age (with Fingon being only slightly younger). Even after the rest of Maedhros's siblings are born, I still see him being closest to Maglor - two oldest of the brothers, of the cousins. Maedhros is the mom friend, and he tries to get along with everyone, take care of everyone. Maglor is too busy perfecting his music skill and occasionally acting snobbish to help (yes, I headcanon younger Maglor as a bit of a snob, sue me :D), but Maedhros doesn't mind because he loves his brother even if he sometimes makes him wish to bang his head against the wall. Repeatedly.

When their lives begin to crumble under their feet, Maglor lets go of his snobbish attitude and tries to help. Fëanor isn't himself anymore, and Finwë is too blind with his love to see what his son is turning into. Maedhros is trying to keep everyone together, Maglor as well, and Fingon and Finrod do their best to help. Fëanor is banished, and all his sons go with him. Nerdanel doesn't. Maedhros start breaking under the pressure put on his shoulders, but he prevails. With Fingon in Tirion, Maglor is now his biggest support.

Everything escalates.

After Finwë's death, I don't think they were given much time to grieve - not with all that happened afterward, and especially not with Fëanor being... Well, you know what I mean. Oath happens, and the first kinslaying, and Losgar. Fëanor is dead, Maedhros is captured and rescued. (in some versions, Amrod is dead, but I am following mostly Silm in this, so take that into consideration further on)

During my latest Silmarillion reread, I noticed a pattern - pretty much every time it mentioned feanorians wanting to do something stupid, being angry, or something similar, it only excluded Maedhros - never Maglor. So while I think Maglor was one of the more gentle brothers, I don't think he was an innocent dude just following his brothers around or something similar. I think that Maedhros's brothers didn't try to resist the oath much in general - at first, they did to an extent, but after some time, they stopped trying. Thus Celegorm's and Curufin's misadventures in Nargothrond (made stronger by the silmaril part) :D Caranthir, Maglor and Ambarussar would be somehow better off, but still not resisting that hard. In the later first age, I think, all of them were pretty much unrecognizable from their past, happier selves. Maedhros would keep his mortals, but the rest would be more looser with them.

Doriath changed that, I think: with the three Cs death, and Eluréd and Elurín lost, I think Maedhros finally snapped. He was tired, and he stopped caring - and I think that was also the breaking for Maglor (though in a different way), when he finally realized how far they have fallen.

When the third kinslaying came, Maedhros just wanted it to be over. Ambarussar were dead, and he and Maglor were alone again, the oldest ones. Silmaril was out of his reach, after being so close. And then he was presented with another pair of twins, as if Elurín and Eluréd come again, but this time... This time he didn't care for their lives. He was tired.

Maglor was tired also, but this time, he was full of regret from the past. He wanted to fix his mistakes. He didn't think anything could excuse his past actions, but maybe he could do at least one more good deed in his life.

He convinces Maedhros and they gain a whole shiny new pair of twins.

Maedhros, I think, grows to like them (not sure if I would go as far as to say love, depends on how long exactly they spend together), and for a time, Elrond and Elros make him see what he used to fight for. For better future, for better life. Maglor is doing his best, but he isn't sure how. Maedhros was the one used to keeping his family in check. For Maglor, this was a new field, and he didn't dare to go against Maedhros often.

War of Wrath happens.

Maedhros wants to steal the silmarils, Maglor doesn't. But Maglor is tired and goes along with Maedhros's wish.

Silmarils burn them, and Maedhros is dead - too tired, he has given up years ago. There was nothing for him left.

Maglor, for the first time in his life, is alone. He doesn't know what to do. And so grieves, and grieves, and grieves.

*but since we all love a proper happy end, Maglor is either going to end up hanging around in modern times, much more in peace with himself than he was at the end of the First Age. Or he crashes at Valinor, where his family is reborn because Mandos doesn't want to be anywhere near them. Maedhros is happy again, and has a new purpose in life. Maglor heals. They are together again, and happy*

[maitarussa-old]

I'm really sorry you had such a rough day at work, I hope you can have a relaxing afternoon/evening/morning (depending on your hours?)

I'd love to hear more about your fic verse and how it differs from the canon timeline. If you want more specific questions I'd be glad to think of some!

Your world building is amazing!

-@outofangband

Thank you!

My ficverse is fairly canon-compliant, with the main fic, Beyond the Darkest Night, taking place for the most part in the Fourth Age, and planned sequels afterwards.

Most of my fics and hcs take place in the same universe as BtDN, however, and a few things that are “canon” to my version that might not be confirmed as canon, but don’t necessarily contradict it (Tolkien’s canon contradicts itself enough anyway) are as follows:

Maedhros ends up in the Void after his death and forswearing the Oath (basically the entire premise for BtDN)

Elrond finds Maglor after the War of the Ring and brings him along to Aman.

The ban on the Ñoldor being lifted includes the dead, so the Finweans in Mandos are able to be reborn after the First Age. Most of them are.

The remnants of Sauron’s spirit are brought to Valinor for judgement by Gandalf.

Amrod dies at Losgar but his spirit lingers with Amras. At times when Amras is in battle, Amrod will appear beside him as a spectre and fight with him (especially during the kinslayings).

Maeglin survives the Fall of Gondolin (barely) due to Sauron’s token, ends up being taken in by the Fëanorians (this is a whole fic in itself that I’m working on). He still lives in Middle-Earth for many ages.

Gil-Galad is Maedhros and Fingon’s child, but was raised for a time by Orodreth in Nargothrond. His elder sister, Erien, was captured while still young and became Thuringwethil, though eventually she escaped Sauron’s influence.

A large portion of the survivors of Sirion are absorbed into Maedhros and Maglor’s people along with Elrond and Elros— this is both good and bad, but they are treated fairly well regardless. On the same note, the twins were treated kindly and they and Maedhros and Maglor grew to consider themselves a family of sorts.

There’s a lot that happens as a result of BtDN as well that I’m not quite going into bc spoilers, but these are just a few things

[whetstonefires]

it's very annoying, i'm not even at all an elwing fan and i'm very much of the opinion she's high on the list of People Who Abandoned Elrond

(which is about the same as the list of everyone he's ever loved except probably his sons oof)

but i'm feeling very defensive of her after that reductive take about how her position can't be compared to that of any irl oppressed peoples because she had the option to surrender and her people would have been spared so it's her fault

partly it's frustrating because i've seen WAY more maglor stans tearing her down than elwing supporters ever so the 'ugh all the awful elwing girl power stans not valuing the lives of children' part of the take looked ice cold

but MOSTLY because that reflects 1) an insanely sanitized version of history and 2) a pretty sanitized vision of Middle Earth, which is already a squeaky-clean universe without many greys, relatively speaking

like. the assertion she had ALL the options steams me up. no. she had ONE other option, which is being here argued for. preemptive surrender.

to the people who murdered her whole family. who tried to rape her grandmother. who invaded her homeland and can be considered partly responsible for the fall of her entire civilization.

to people who, according to the strict wording of their oath, were obligated to kill her just for having HANDLED the Silmaril, whether she gave it back or not.

did they actually parse it that way? well, they didn't try to kill Luthien or Morgoth, but that might just prove they didn't start fights they didn't think they could win. anymore.

can we, from the perspective of a text that retrospectively valorizes and explores the traumas of the Sons of Feanor to the fullest extent it can manage in the context of their crimes, conclude that Maglor and Maedhros would probably have dealt as honorably as anyone taking refugees hostage for treasure ever does? sure.

but in that moment in the living story context, they could not trust that, they had every reason not to regard that as a guarantee, and taking for granted that of course giving in to the ransom demands would have protected them and they knew that is either deeply disingenuous or reflects limited critical reflection on the situation

the odds, as calculated from the Sindar end, that any attempt to actually buy their lives with the jewel would result in the treaty party being butchered would have figured as EXTREMELY high.

now, maybe they should have done it anyway? for at least a chance to live longer? to buy their children more time in a world that as far as anyone could tell was ending anyway? maybe.

it's so easy to see them talking it out, the letter from the murderers of her parents and the baby brothers she named her sons for on the table, the reed lights burning low. do we do it? do we bend? can we trust them? they're as bad as orcs, would we bargain with orcs?

they're not that bad. they might keep their word.

they WILL keep their word, that's all they ever do, why do you think Lady Elwing has never let anyone else handle the thing?

if we are to bend, i will go to them alone with it, so they can cut me down and ride away and leave the rest of you unharmed.

unacceptable! have we no pride left? we fight!

to the last. better to die as ourselves.

better to die to elves than to orcs, anyway. at least our children will not go to angband in chains.

-

i'm not saying this WAS what happened, just that it's just as likely as Elwing having been avoidably in the wrong, even without casting the actual noldor-partisan text into question.

and since there is so much space for interpretation, the argument (in the context of being a maglor fan no less) that anyone who defends Elwing's suicide attempt doesn't care about children is the kind of bad form ad-hominem-to-win that really grinds my gears

[eri-pl]

Inspired by the previous post, a way to make Celegorm in B&L more coherent.

I posted a "good Celegorm" version some time ago, now a version where he's bad but not so out of the blue. TW discussion of rape attempt (motivations, not details) below cut:

So, lust... Celegorm had never before been shown to be lusty. Elves are in general not very lusty (per LaCE), I would assume being a doomed kinslayer doesn't automatically change that. And being a hunter... While there is some cultural association there in general, I'd say not for him.

This guy hunted with Orome and while I'm not a great fan of Orome (anger issues etc), his hunt definitely didn't cultivate anything even adjustment to rape culture. There only one Vala who would be ok with such mentality, and that's one of the reasons why he's not a Vala anymore.

So what, Luthien? No. We aren't going to blame it on Luthien being pretty. We are not.

Morgoth lusted for her, but he's, well, Morgoth. He's like this and he's the worst. And going downhill through the book. (Yes, I like him but he is terrible and I'm not going to lie about it)

It wasn't Luthien's fault or plan. (Let's ignore the earliest version of the story, ok?)

So what?

My suggestion is: it wasn't lust what led Celegorm. (Not revenge either, that would be both terrible and stupid, what does Luthien even have to do with Eol?). It was desperation.

Imagine: Celegorm lived in Nargothrond, with Finrod "more foresight than common sense" Felagund + maybe had some foresight himself. He knew he was going to die relatively soon, he knew he was going to die because of B&L's Silmaril quest (overestimated how directly because of it) and (due to some Finrod's remarks l he knew the quest would succeed.

What doesn't he have. Well, a Silmaril. But also, kids to make the ghost of his father proud. It never mattered before, but now, with the vision of death being close, it does matter.

He gets it after Finwe, the intense want to have kids, have someone after him.

(Does it justify him anyhow? No. Rape is still rape. It just makes him more coherent as character.)

Or maybe he never married before because he looks so much like Miriel and what if his wife died but Luthien is a part Maia—

And also if he weds her and if she gets the Silmaril (Beren or not, he saw a vision of her wearing it, or maybe Finrod saw it and want discreet, anyway her fate is woven)—

If even one Silmaril returns to the house of Feanor without more bloodshed murders, without his (overly sensitive) brothers hating themselves more and more—

A freedom of one woman isn't too high a price, is it?

For the family. For the Silmaril and getting Feanor more grandkids and making them more special than Tyelpe is, maybe this one time Celegorm can make his father proud, maybe he can do something better than Curufin, for Roger brothers' peace of mind (Maedhros doesn't have to know how the wedding exactly happened)

It is as bad, but much less random, I think.

Also, whatever motivation we assume, I see the Luthien situation as Celegorm lowest point. I like to think that he regretted it later (Just not as much to not murder her son. But he wouldn't try to go this far again, with anyone.) That's just... He's very un-elven already, let's not make him more outside of the range of how things work in the Silm.

(Also, yes, I somewhat like him, that's another reason. Because my friends like him.)