#nhs meta

[guqin-and-flute]

Something about the fact that these shots are all grouped together, one after another, visually giving them equal weight just gets me. The narrative knows what's going to happen between JGY and Huaisang at this point, knows how it's going to treat JGY at the end of everything. And it still takes time to show Meng Yao instinctively and immediately going in front of Huaisang and Huaisang instinctively and immediately hiding behind him. It takes the time--literally, showed it in the background and focused on it with the same general amount of time as the other shots--to show that this act of protection and trust are just as real and true as Jiang Cheng defending his sister, as Wen Qing defending her younger brother.

Like, I dunno! There are other Nie juniors there! They have swords and shit! Huaisang could have gone and hid behind the wall, but he hid behind Meng Yao! And Meng Yao could have moved back with Huaisang, but he steps directly in front of him!

There's a lot CQL did to JGY's character and narrative that I don't like and that flatten or just straight up erase his full complexity. But I really appreciate the lengths that it went to in Episode 4 to explicitly tell us that he does not hesitate to protect Huaisang, even though at this point he does not have a sword and definitely does not have anywhere near the same cultivation power (if any) as any of the rest of the people in the room.

Right now, after being publicly humiliated, unarmed and definitely outclassed, he is brave. Along with the rest of the characters, he's allowed to be uncomplicatedly young and loyal and just as innocent as any of the other students there.

[guqin-and-flute]

#YEAH like#man i had a lot of thoughts about this watching the last episodes last night#i felt really strongly in that last conversation with xichen#he really needs xichen to be okay with what he did#the realization that LXC is shattered by this truly shocks him#him turning up at cloud recesses then felt like him being like... okay can WE still be friends#and wwx is like lol bitch absolutely not#the panic when he realizes everyone can see what he did#that he can't just... move on from this#can't just come back#he's been exposed in front of people who won't see him the same way anymore#but HE doesn't see himself that way!!

(via @lansplaining)

I wonder if NHS spent years sick to his stomach with dread because at any moment Jin Guangyao could figure out what he’s about and he could lose every chance for vengeance or if he knew he could do it for Dage

[meanderfall]

The thing that gets me the most about Nie Huaisang's quest for vengeance is that when it's finally accomplished, he just looks tired.

Like, Jin Guangyao is a practiced hand at appearing inoffensive and biding his time until the right moment to strike, but when he does, he's always got that satisfied smirk on his face. Just so smug and vicious and pleased that he brought them low and he is the victor.

Nie Huaisang just looks tired. Sad. Even in the moments leading up, he looks intent, maybe even angry, but not happy or pleased or excited.

It just kind of hammers home to me that this revenge plot is against his nature, and just how much grief he felt at not only Nie Mingjue's death, but the betrayal and hurt that Jin Guangyao did it, because they were friends.

[lgbtlunaverse]

So since mxtx has said that in novel canon nie huaisang is eventually going to end up being chief cultivator we can presume the headshaker thing, while based on his existing personality, was in fact an act and he is way more competent at his job than he's let on. And with Jin Guangyao dead and gone he has no reason to put on that act anymore.

Imagine being an Nie cultivator. Your flopppy incompetent sect leader comes home from traumatic events after it turns out his older brother's sworn brother- who's been over to your sect basically every other week for years now- is the one that killed said brother and you're fully prepared for tears and dramatics. And while you definitley don't like lianfang-zun since it just came out he killed your last (way more competent) sect leader he was sorta the one holding the sect together so you're bracing yourself for the worst, and instead he's... stoic? Paperwork is suddenly getting done well and on time without help. He's not wailing during negotiations anymore and you're getting actual good trade deals for the first time in over a decade. He answers questions now? With something other than "I don't know i don't know i really don't know!"

And even if you had none of the revelations wei wuxian had in guanyin temple, slowly the realization creeps up on you that all his earlier embarassing antics that cost your family their comfortable livelihoods and your sect their good name was on purpose. And from there it's not that hard to put two and two together. The rest of the cultivation world assumes the shock of jin guangyao's betrayal has finally forced the headshaker to grow up a little but you have worked side by side with him for a decade, probably even watched him grow up under his brother's rule. You know better.

How do you feel at that point? What can you even do? He's your sect leader. And he's finally doing his job, things are looking up, shouldn't you feel relieved? It' not like his incompetence really caused any deaths among the nie, just wiped out generational wealth and reputation that will take years and years to build back up. Is it really reasonable to only start hating someone for something when they've stopped doing it? Thereby proving that they were capable of stopping all along?

[rejectedfables]

Given the way that Headshaker Huaisang goes to Jin Guangyao (and LXC) for solutions to so many of his problems, possibly/probably including struggles with running a sect, do you think maybe the Headshaker persona was as much a part of the revenge plot as it was a veil to hide behind? Like, oh you killed my brother, the head of the Nie sect? Fine. YOU run the sect then 🙃 It needs a leader and you killed him so now it's YOUR fucking problem, and I'm going to make it an incredibly annoying problem. Not a single cog will turn smoothly 🙃

[liverbiver9]

i’ve been thinking about modern au huaisang recently, and while i do think it’s charming to have him still use a fan, i’ve been trying to come up with a modern equivalent. literally been wracking my brain trying to think of something until i was in the shower today and i felt so stupid for not thinking of it earlier:

huaisang would use his phone.

he would be that motherfucker with an iphone max or something that doesn’t even fit into the back pocket of his skinny jeans, which he claims is an excuse for him to buy more designer handbags to carry the damn thing. everyone thinks he’s chronically online (which may actually be true but not in the shallow, narcissistic way they assume) because he never puts it down. it’s always up in his face, at least covering his mouth, as he types and scrolls away.

when someone has their phone out, it is universally assumed they aren’t paying attention to what is going on around them. so huaisang, who never seems to put his down unless he’s shopping or gossiping, is assumed to be completely engrossed in his online sphere rather than what’s around him. he’s the one everyone tells to go outside and touch grass. but the thing is, he’s always paying attention. his eyes may be glued onto his screen, but his mind and ears are focused elsewhere.

his brother has tried locking his phone up, throwing it away, even breaking it, but huaisang just sees this as an opportunity to buy himself a new one, so it’s a lost cause. all his friends tease him about it but don’t truly complain because he puts the phone down when it really matters most.

the point of his fan in mdzs is to paint him as frivolous and naive, as well as to hide his face and accentuate the fact that he’s not paying attention. so if we were to translate that to modern time, that would be a fucking phone

god i felt so stupid when i realized it because it seems so obvious in hindsight

[mxtxfanatic]

Notes on Inheritance and Succession in MDZS

Within mdzs, there exists certain tropes shared with other traditional genre cnovels set in similar “hazy-on-history ancient past” settings. One of these tropes is the issue of inheritance and succession, i.e. who gets to be the new leader. In every traditional genre novel I’ve read, while succession and inheritance is assumed based on birth order and ranking (eldest son of the main wife inherits over second son of the main wife or eldest son of the father but born to a concubine), this is not always the case. For instance: a major plotline in a lot of family conflict-driven stories is that a man who has had multiple sons born to different main wives (first wife has died or been divorced) may choose his successor based on which main wife he loved more or whose family has more political backing rather than who is eldest. A man who respects his concubine more than his main wife may scheme to legitimize his shu (concubine-born) son to allow him to succeed over his wife’s son(s). A man with no sons can petition or be petitioned by the clan to “adopt” one from another branch of the family in order to carry on the legacy of his branch of the family. And in very rare cases, complete outsiders are adopted in—though not without approval or challenge from the rest of the clan. Succession is not some set-in-stone process in the genre.

Likewise, we see this play out in mdzs. Taking concubines exists as a practice in the world of mdzs, but with none of the great clan leaders choosing to have any, there’s no issue of di (main wife-born) son fighting shu son. Instead, we have many di son contenders who… don’t content for anything lmao. Of the 5 great clans, 3 of them have 2 di sons, and one of them has a single di son and multiple unclaimed sons outside the home. The Jiang is the only great clan that has only a single son, di or otherwise, born to the clan leader. Let’s break it down a little further: the Lan clan have two di sons born of the same mother—a circumstance usually portrayed as harmonious in similar setting novels and follows, here, with the Twin Jades—and the QishanWen assumedly do as well, also without any signs of conflict between Wen Xu and Wen Chao.

But the Nie have two di sons born of different mothers, one who is the shining example of a Nie leader and the other who is considered a waste. In a traditional genre novel, the expectation would be that Nie Mingjue and Nie Huaisang have a poor relationship because of having different mothers, that they should fight over inheritance, and that Nie Huaisang’s “waste” reputation be either a personality cultivated in him by Nie Mingjue to prevent his younger brother from being capable of inheriting or a ploy by Nie Huaisang to deceive his older brother into not perceiving him as a threat. Neither is the case. Nie Mingjue inherits the Nie Clan leader mantle effortlessly, and Nie Huaisang rejects the idea that he succeed. In fact, Nie Mingjue succeeded to clan leader so early in life that he is the one who raises his brother, and rather than raising his “competition” to be a waste, he is the one who pressures Nie Huaisang into developing a golden core and practicing with his saber, against all of Nie Huaisang’s objections. Despite having different mothers who were both main wives and therefore giving them both an equal claim to inheritance, there is no succession crisis.

Ok, so what about the Jin Clan? On the surface, it should be very simple because Jin Guangshan only has one di son, only claims this one son, and even if he were to claim another, he does not want to change his successor. So even when Jin Guangyao comes in, there was never a crisis in succession because Jin Guangshan made it very clear that he would never make Jin Guangyao his heir. That’s partially why when Jin Guangshan claims Mo Xuanyu and brings the boy back to Koi Tower as his heir, Jin Guangyao doesn’t bother to kill Mo Xuanyu. He kills Jin Guangshan and has Mo Xuanyu exiled from the clan. The Jin never had a crisis of succession; Jin Guangyao simply killed the original heir, killed his father while Jin Guangshan thought he had another heir secured, then exiled that other heir post- their father's death so that others couldn’t be brought in to challenge him (and lest we forget the rumors that he was secretly offing the other unclaimed sons behind the scenes, if you want to believe that). Later, when Jin Ling inherits the clan leader title, his claim is tested by older clan members and established clan elders because he is young and seemingly defenseless, not because there was a breadth of heir apparents with legitimate claims to his title waiting in the wings for their chance. It was just a power grab.

So now we have the Jiang Clan, the only clan with only one son and one daughter from the clan leader. There is no succession crisis, and there could never be one. Despite the possibility of having a female clan member succeed (Lan Yi exists as example) and the prevalence of highly respected female cultivators in the story, Jiang Yanli is a weak cultivator and has been engaged to be married out since birth. Jiang Cheng is the only option. I've seen some say that if Wei Wuxian was officially adopted in, then that would cause a succession crisis, but that's also not the case, because Wei Wuxian would be neither Jiang Fengmian's di son unless he were adopted under Madam Yu's name (something she would never allow to happen) nor a viable successor if Jiang Fengmian, himself, did not name Wei Wuxian as a successor over Jiang Cheng, something he would not do. And this isn't even counting the fact that Jiang Fengmian would need clan approval to adopt Wei Wuxian at all (think how Lan Wangji needed approval to adopt A-Yuan as a Lan), let alone the uproar that the Jiang Clan would have as a whole at the idea of Jiang Fengmian making a former servant's son the new clan heir over his son and all the other legitimate sons of the Jiang Clan. Absolutely would not fly. Jiang Cheng has the only claim to the Jiang Clan, and if he dies without an heir, the clan dies with him. Nothing a married-out Jiang Yanli or Schrödinger's adopted son Wei Wuxian can do about it.

Where mdzs diverges from this trope with the traditional genre cnovels is that where this diversity of family types would be cause for conflict, mxtx pretty much ignores them because mdzs is not a dogblood drama. Therefore as morally weak or loose as a lot of the characters are, most characters still hold to a lot of the core beliefs of their society, such as filial piety. There's simply no need to fight over something like who gets to be clan leader unless you truly are a person willing to abandon all morals simply for a crumb of power. And wouldn't you know it, the only character to completely eschew all filial piety in pursuit of coveted power is the biggest villain of the novel who receives the most gruesome death when all his crimes catch up to him.

Some in-depth quotes under the cut:

Concubines exist in the world of mdzs and is not uncommon among cultivation clans:

[Jin Guangyao] never took in any concubines, much less had a relationship with any other woman. This was indeed something that many wives of sect leaders envied.

—Chapt. 47: Guile, exr

Why Jin Guangyao could never be heir under Jin Guangshan despite becoming a claimed son:

In comparison, Mo XuanYu and his mother were rather favored. At least Jin GuangShan still remembered that he had such a son and brought him back to Koi Tower. Meng Yao, on the other hand, wasn’t as lucky. The son of a prostitute was far from that of a good family.

—Chapt. 47: Guile, exr

[Jin Guangyao] spoke, “My whole thing? Which whole thing? Brother, you’ve always yelled at me for calculating people and being too dishonorable. You say that you’re a proud, righteous person, that you aren’t afraid of anything, that propen men shouldn’t need to play with schemes. That’s fine. Your background is noble and your cultivation is high. But what about me? Am I the same as you? First, my cultivation isn’t as firm as yours. Ever since I was born, has anyone taught me? And second, I have no prominent background. Do you think that I’m in a steady position, here at the LanlingJin Sect? Do you think that I can rise into power the moment Jin ZiXuan dies? Jin GuangShan would rather bring another illegitimate child back than want me to succeed him! You think that I should be afraid of nothing? Well I’m afraid of everything, even other people! He whose stomach is full believes not him who is starving.”

—Chapt. 50: Guile, exr

“This is what he said, ‘It’s especially women who’ve read some books who think they’re a level higher than other women. They’re the most troublesome, with so many demands and unrealistic thoughts. If I bought her freedom and took her back to Lanling, who knows how much fuss she’d make. It was best that I let her stay where she was just like that. With her conditions, she’d probably be popular for a few more years. She wouldn’t have to worry about her spendings for the rest of her life.’ “‘Son? Oh, forget it.’”

—Chapt. 106: Hatred, exr (Jin Guangshan's words recalled by Jin Guangyao)

The conflict in the Nie brothers' relationship:

Nie MingJue was on the school ground, teaching and supervising Nie HuaiSang’s saberwork in person. He didn’t acknowledge Jin GuangYao, so he stood at the edge of the field, waiting with respect. Since Nie HuaiSang was quite uninterested and the sun was bright, he was rather half- hearted, complaining that he was tired after just a few moves. ... Nie HuaiSang roared at Nie MingJue, “Saber, saber, saber! Who the fuck wants to practice the damn thing?! So what if I want to be a good-for-nothing?! Whoever that wants to can be the sect leader! I can’t learn it means I can’t learn it and I don’t like it means I don’t like it! What’s the use of forcing me?!”

—Chapt. 50: Guile, exr

[tavina-writes]

I have been pondering the recent rash of "post canon NHS and LXC would never ever reconcile bc even if NHS wanted to have Er-ge back, LXC would never ever forgive him for [insert reason of choice here]" type of posts + the "do you think NHS thinks very hard about how much Da-ge would hate him for becoming [the way that he is now] by choosing to seek vengeance" type of posts, and I think fundamentally the reason these posts do not jive with me is that we have no indication, in the show or in the book that uh, NHS gives a shit about either of these things very much anymore?

The first type of post is predicated on the assumption that LXC's forgiveness or lack thereof some some sort of either extension of mercy (which NHS obviously does not deserve <- or so assumes the post) or some form of punishment (which is obviously the correct answer) but the last scene we get with NHS both in the book and the show make no indication that this is a thing he wants? Or cares about? Book NHS has *sauntered off* with his little hat trophy and Show NHS walks off screen after saying something along the lines of "What is my responsibility I won't shirk, what isn't my responsibility I won't care about." Now, arguably, show NHS is having a worse go of it emotionally, but shows no real inclination or interest in either apologies or making up and being friends again with LWJ, LXC, WWX, or other people. Book NHS seems pretty pleased with the outcome of the events as a whole?

The second type of post is predicated on the fact that NHS finds Da-ge's judgement a horrible burden to bear at this stage in the game, which! He might! But again especially in the book we get no indication that he has any fucks left to give about what Da-ge may or may not have wanted since Da-ge is dead. In both the show and the book, NHS went about revenge taking very specific and complicated actions with the desired result of JGY dying, but he certainly took the scenic route getting there, which, he didn't need to? As I've written about before, JGY didn't see him as a threat. If he wanted JGY dead he could've arranged to poison JGY's tea like, 10 years ago and had done with it instead of his complicated Rube Goldberg life ruining scheme. If he is still sickly anxious about how Da-ge might feel about the scheming and the trouble causing and the whole everything, that's certainly possible, but he must've decided it was worth it anyway regardless of that, and I don't know that it necessarily would've changed just because he got what he wanted at the end.

Overall, I think as a fandom we think a lot about like "will and should this relationship ever be repaired or similar to how it used to be?" and "does this character deserve/not deserve the forgiveness of people they've hurt or abandoned?" which can be interesting questions! I do feel like these are often taken as "is a character morally good (deserves to be forgiven) or morally bad (deserves to rot in hell forever never forgiven ever ever)" and based entirely on if Character is the meta writer's blorbo. Under this paradigm the concept of "Character did bad things to get exactly what they wanted and were happy about that and no relationships were ever repaired and the emotional detachment of people they used to care about no longer matters to them!" is uncomfortable.

It's just that for NHS I've increasingly come to the conclusion that canonically, I don't think NHS thinks he has anything to apologize for, nor is he super interested in being forgiven! He got what he wanted the way he wanted it to happen. Which is potentially supremely unsatisfying but I think is very sexy as a narrative concept.

[khattikeri]

you ever wake up and think about nie huaisang's entirely off-screen journey?

(thirteen years.) do you think about how easy and yet nauseating it must've felt for nie huaisang to use his own childhood self as a mask? to maintain the appearance of a vapid child quick to run to others and whine instead of setting aside hobbies and trying to figure out how to work through responsibility?

(thirteen years.) what was he thinking? surely he didn't formulate everything to a tee in one sitting. how long had he taken until he was fully sinking into the balancing act of pretending he hadn't changed one bit in front of all the other clans, in front of his elder brother's close sworn brothers, while running the qinghe nie sect well enough behind the scenes to still maintain their unequivocal loyalty and respect?

(thirteen years.) do you think he hated himself now and then for becoming so quietly manipulative and focused on the ends over the means? looked at himself in the mirror at times and had to turn away because he saw a flicker of the one man he was trying to permanently unravel in revenge, the man his brother despised for always stooping to trickery?

(thirteen years.) how often did he get nightmares of qi deviations and being attacked, of that near-miss opportunity to save his older brother? the war and aftermath changed his school friends permanently and nie huaisang, in spite of his ability to worm his way out of things he didn't want to confront, was not an exception. how long until he got used to shoving his own squeamishness aside, accepting losses and violence and collateral damage and pain to other people for his own goals?

(thirteen years.) it drives me crazy. it drives me so damn crazy that mdzs is a story told from the perspective of wei wuxian. crazy that a few choice words and meaningful reactions at guanyin temple are the only reason we know even a fraction of what nie huaisang did over those years and why.

(thirteen years.) lan wangji and jiang wanyin were not the only ones who had to bear with the weight of time on their grief.

how many fans and paintbrushes can a person collect in thirteen years? (i don't know, i don't know, i don't know.)

[leportraitducadavre]

I feel like some of you take “character’s development” as a synonym for “a character modifying a specific behavior the fandom has a problem with” and when some of these cases end up not changing such things about themselves you guys consider it detracts them from their overall narrative value; sure there’re traits considered toxic that many want for their favorite character to “overcome”, but it mostly rests on the desire of the fandom to place a specific character within an acceptable moral standard. many times this “toxic behavior” isn’t paramount to the character’s stance inside their universe or plot as this characteristic isn’t even a problem surrounding the character’s relationships or goals, so it’s not something that needs to be modified for them to achieve their objectives or establish meaningful bonds; in short, there’s no narrative need to alter it. Furthermore, not everyone needs nor is set to change, and the fact that some characters simply don’t do it just adds to their verisimilitude.

[evilhasnever]

I often see the Yi City trio compared to the Venerated Triad, but I personally don’t see a similarity that goes much deeper than “3 guys who all end up dead or worse”. 

Proposal: a much more interesting comparison, to me, is between the Yi City trio and xiyao + Nie Huaisang.

Here we have an honorable, utterly innocent cultivator (LXC&XXC) tricked into killing his closest confidant / soulmate (Song Lan&JGY) because of the selfish agenda of someone they trusted (Xue Yang&NHS).

And once this man realizes what he’s done, he wishes to be dead, too. 

(Granted, Song Lan had never done anything wrong and JGY had committed a few oopsies, but their role in the other man’s life is the same. Furthermore: the world would have been a little bit better if their dreams had come to fruition. A sect where all are welcome, not tied by blood to any clan! Watchtowers to help the common people in the furthest areas where cultivators hardly go! They may have been extremely different people, but they both worked to help the common man.)

[sinna-rou]

Been reading MDZS fics lately and I gotta say I’m growing increasingly understanding of why some of y’all are so obsessed with NHS. Little gremlin boy. Sneaky little man. Honest? No. Evil? Not quite. An absolute nuisance and menace to society? Oh I don’t know, I really don’t know…

[nutcasewithaknife]

What really gets me about Nie Huaisang is that all of his schemes are not for his brother, but for himself.

It's not just about putting his brother's head back on his body. It's not about getting his brother back, because that's beyond impossible. It's definitely not to avenge his brother the way he would've wanted to be avenged, because Nie Mingjue would never ever approve of the dishonourable way he went about it, under the radar, breaking fifty different taboos. It's because Jin Guangyao broke Nie Huaisang's trust and destroyed the person he loved the most, and for that, he had to pay with everything he held dear - the people he loved, his reputation and status, and ultimately his life. And what drives me fucking insane is that he didn't have to!!!! NHS was terrified of being found out and killed off, but he still did it because that was all he had left - his fury, and his fear to temper it. The boy who actually was outraged at the sword hall is gone, and right and wrong don't matter anymore. Not when it comes to this. It's a very selfish sort of fury he falls into - nothing righteous or just or redeeming about it. It's not about defeating a dangerous, powerful man. It's about defeating the man who ripped his world apart. It's just a man broken by circumstances so badly that he's not even trying to fix anything anymore, just doing what he thinks is necessary to keep the pieces together.

[homeless202]

"there's no way you don't know this already, right?" <- this right here is the main reason for EY's frustration with HJ. we've seen it already multiple times but never summarized this well.

altho they both have similar background with having to fight to survive and also stealing, EY still cannot believe/comprehend how HJ isn't as jaded as him. how can this guy still see the good in people and hope for a better future when he's seen the ugly parts of life? <- which is why EY would often starts arguments with HJ earlier in the story.

EY is obv talking from experience - he knows things most people don't know and couldn't understand. he thought HJ would be able to relate and validate (or at least sympathize with) his feelings and experiences but he doesn't. instead HJ continuously says things that hurt EY without realizing or meaning to.

[sueske]

Ohhhhh I’m interested in more Neji takes, personally I think Naruto’s bond w him ran deeper than anything he has w h, and even that doesn’t compare to what he has w Sasuke of course so… yeah. The overall effect of nh ending up together is *sad trombone*.

neji 🙆🏻‍♀️

hinata 🙅🏻‍♀️

[mxtxfanatic]

Getting to his feet from Jiang Cheng’s side, with eyes brimming red, he rushed towards Jin GuangYao, shouting, “Why did you do that?!”

Nie HuaiSang immediately took a hold of Jin Ling, who looked about ready to start a fight with Jin GuangYao, and pulled him back.

–Chapt. 106: “A Hatred For Life” Part 9, boat-full-of-lotus-pods

THANK YOU only adult in the room not being seduced by Jin Guangyao’s drama to forget that he’s still dangerous.