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denimbex1986 · 1 year ago

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'...“It’s fun playing bad, but actually he’s not,” the actor says, smiling as he reflects on his character, Crowley. “He’s a villain with a heart. The amount of really evil things he does are vanishingly small.”

...As it always has, “Good Omens” dissects the view of good and evil as absolutes, showing viewers that they are not as separate as we were led to believe growing up. Aziraphale and Crowley’s long-standing union is proof of this. The show also urges people to look at what defines our own humanity. For Tennant — who opted to wear a T-shirt emblazoned with the words “Leave trans kids alone you absolute freaks” during a photocall for Season 2 — these themes are more important now than ever before.

“In this society that we’re currently living in, where polarization seems ever more present, fierce and difficult to navigate. Negotiation feels like a dirty word at times,” he says, earnestly. “This is a show about negotiation. Two extremes finding common ground and making their world a better place through it. Making life easier, kinder and better. If that’s the sort of super objective of the show, then I can’t think of anything more timely, relevant or apt for the rather fractious times we’re living in.”

“Good Omens” is back by popular demand for another season. How does it feel?

It’s lovely. Whenever you send something out into the world, you never quite know how it will land. Especially with this, because it was this beloved book that existed, and that creates an extra tension that you might break some dreams. But it really exploded. I guess we were helped by the fact that we had Neil Gaiman with us, so you couldn’t really quibble too much with the decisions that were being made. The reception was, and continues to be, overwhelming.

Now that you’re no longer bound by the original material that people did, perhaps, feel a sense of ownership over, does the new content for Season 2 come with a sense of freedom for you? This is uncharted territory, of sorts.

That’s an interesting point. I didn’t know the book when I got the script. It was only after that I discovered the worlds of passion that this book had incited. Because I came to it that way, perhaps it was easier. I found liberation from that, to an extent. For me, it was always a character that existed in a script. At first, I didn’t have that extra baggage of expectation, but I acquired it in the run-up to Season 1 being released… the sense that suddenly we were carrying a ming vase across a minefield.

In Season 2, we still have Neil and we also have some of the ideas that he and Terry had discussed. During the filming of the first one, Neil would drop little hints about the notions they had for a prospective sequel, the title of which would have been “668: The Neighbour of the Beast,” which is a pretty solid gag to base a book around. Indeed there were elements like Gabriel and the Angels, who don’t feature in the book, that were going to feature in a sequel. They were brought forward into Season 1. So, even in the new episodes, we’re not entirely leaving behind the Terry Pratchett-ness of it all.

It’s great to see yourself and Michael Sheen reunited on screen as these characters. Fans will have also watched you pair up for Season 3 of “Staged.” You’re quite the dynamic duo. What do you think is the magic ingredient that makes the two of you such a good match?

It’s a slightly alchemical thing. We knew each other in passing before, but not well. We were in a film together [“Bright Young Things,” 1993] but we’d never shared a scene. It was a bit of a roll of the dice when we turned up at the read-through for “Good Omens.” I think a lot comes from the writing, as we were both given some pretty juicy material to work with. Those characters are beloved for a reason because there’s something magical about them and the way they complete each other. Also, I think we’re quite similar actors in the way we like to work and how we bounce off each other.

Does the shorthand and trust the two of you have built up now enable you to take more risks on-screen?

Yes, probably. I suppose the more you know someone, the more you trust someone. You don’t have to worry about how an idea might be received and you can help each other out with a more honest opinion than might be the case if you were, you know, dancing around each other’s nervous egos. Enjoying being in someone’s orbit and company is a positive experience. It makes going to work feel pleasant, productive, and creative. The more creative you can be, the better the work is. I don’t think it’s necessarily a given that an off-screen relationship will feed into an on-screen one in a positive or negative way. You can play some very intimate moments with someone you barely know. Acting is a peculiar little contract, in that respect. But it’s disproportionately pleasurable going to work when it’s with a mate.

Fans have long discussed the nature of Crowley and Aziraphale’s relationship. In Season 2, we see several of the characters debate whether the two are an item, prompting them to look at their union and decipher what it is. How would you describe their relationship?

They are utterly co-dependent. There’s no one else having the experience that they are having and they’ve only got each other to empathize with. It’s a very specific set of circumstances they’ve been dealt. In this season, we see them way back at the creation of everything. They’ve known each other a long time and they’ve had to rely on each other more and more. They can’t really exist one without the other and are bound together through eternity. Crowley and Aziraphale definitely come at the relationship with different perspectives, in terms of what they’re willing to admit to the relationship being. I don’t think we can entirely interpret it in human terms, I think that’s fair to say.

Yet fans are trying to do just that. Do you view it as beyond romantic or any other labels, in the sense that it’s an eternal force?

It’s lovely [that fans discuss it] but you think, be careful what you wish for. If you’re willing for a relationship to go in a certain way or for characters to end up in some sort of utopian future, then the story is over. Remember what happened to “Moonlighting,” that’s all I’m saying! [Laughs]

Your father-in-law, Peter Davison, and your son, Ty Tennant, play biblical father-and-son duo Job and Ennon in Episode 2. In a Tumblr Q&A, Neil Gaiman said that he didn’t know who Ty’s family was when he cast him. When did you become aware that Ty had auditioned?

I don’t know how that happened. I do a bunch of self-tapes with Ty, but I don’t think I did this one with him because I was out of town filming “Good Omens.” He certainly wasn’t cast before we started shooting. There were two moments during filming where Neil bowled up to me and said, “Guess, who we’ve cast?” Ty definitely auditioned and, as I understand it, they would tell me, he was the best. I certainly imagine he could only possibly have been the best person for the job. He is really good in it, so I don’t doubt that’s true. And then my father-in-law showed up, as well, which was another delicious treat. In the same episode and the same family! It was pretty weird. I have worked with both of them on other projects, but never altogether.

There’s a “Doctor Who” cameo, of sorts, in Episode 5, when Aziraphale uses a rare annual about the series as a bartering tool. In reality, you’ll be reprising your Time Lord role on screen later this year in three special episodes to mark the 60th anniversary. Did you always feel you’d return to “Doctor Who” at some point?

There’s a precedent for people who have been in the series to return for a multi-doctor show, which is lovely. I did it myself for the 50th anniversary in 2013, and I had a wonderful time with Matt [Smith]. Then, to have John Hurt with us, as well, was a little treat. But I certainly would never have imagined that I’d be back in “Doctor Who” full-time, as it were, and sort of back doing the same job I did all those years ago. It was like being given this delightful, surprise present. Russell T Davies was back as showrunner, Catherine Tate [former on-screen companion] was back, and it was sort of like the last decade and a half hadn’t happened.

Going forward, Ncuti Gatwa will be taking over as the new Doctor. Have you given him any advice while passing the baton?

Oh God, what a force of nature. I’ve caught a little bit of him at work and it’s pretty exciting. I mean, what advice would you give someone? You can see Ncuti has so much talent and energy. He’s so inspired and charismatic. The thing about something like this is: it’s the peripherals, it’s not the job. It’s the other stuff that comes with it, that I didn’t see coming. It’s a show that has so much focus and enthusiasm on it. It’s not like Ncuti hasn’t been in a massive Netflix series [“Sex Education,”] but “Doctor Who” is on a slightly different level. It’s cross-generational, international, and has so much history, that it feels like it belongs to everyone.

To be at the center of the show is wonderful and humbling, but also a bit overwhelming and terrifying. It doesn’t come without some difficulties, such as the immediate loss of anonymity. It takes a bit of getting used to if that’s not been your life up to that point. I was very lucky that when I joined, Billie Piper [who portrayed on-screen companion, Rose] was still there. She’d lived in a glare of publicity since she was 14, so she was a great guide for how to live life under that kind of scrutiny. I owe a degree of sanity to Billie.

Your characters are revered by a few different fandoms. Sci-fi fandoms are especially passionate and loyal. What is it like being on the end of that? I imagine it’s a lot to hold.

Yes, certainly. Having been a fan of “Doctor Who” since I was a tiny kid, you’re aware of how much it means because you’re aware of how much it meant to you. My now father-in-law [who portrayed Doctor Who in the 80s] is someone I used to draw in comic strips when I was a kid. That’s quite peculiar! It’s a difficult balance because on one end, you have to protect your own space, and there aren’t really any lessons in that. That does take a bit of trial and error, to an extent, and it’s something that you’re sometimes having to do quite publicly. But, it is an honor and a privilege, without a doubt. As you’ve said, it means so much to people and you want to be worthy of that. You have to acknowledge that and be careful with it. Some days that’s tough, if you’re not in the mood.

I know you’re returning to the stage later this year to portray Macbeth. You’ve previously voiced the role for BBC Sounds, but how are you feeling about taking on the character in the theater?

I’m really excited about it. It’s been a while since I’ve done Shakespeare. It’s very thrilling but equally — and this analogy probably doesn’t stretch — it’s like when someone prepares for an Olympic event. It does feel like a bit of a mountain and, yeah, you’re daring to set yourself up against some fairly worthy competition from down the years. That’s both the challenge and the horror of doing these types of things. We’ve got a great director, Max Webster, who recently did “Life of Pi.” He’s full of big ideas. It’s going to be exciting, thrilling, and a little bit scary. I’m just going to take a deep breath.

Before we part ways, let’s discuss the future of “Good Omens.” Gaiman has said that he already has ideas for Season 3, should it happen. If you were to do another season, is there anyone in particular you’d love to work with next time around or anything specific you’d like to see happen for Crowley?

Oh, Neil Gaiman knows exactly where he wants to take it. If you’re working with people like Gaiman, I wouldn’t try to tamper with that creative void. Were he to ask my opinion, that would be a different thing, but I can’t imagine he would. He’s known these characters longer than me and what’s interesting is what he does with them. That’s the bit that I’m desperate to know. I do know where Crowley might end up next, but it would be very wrong if I told you.

[At this point, Tennant picks up a pencil and starts writing on a hotel pad of paper.]

I thought you were going to write it down for me then. Perhaps like a clandestine meeting on a bench in St James’ Park, but instead you’d write the information down and slide it across the table…

I should have done! I was drawing a line, which obviously, psychologically, I was thinking, “Say no more. You’re too tempted to reveal a secret!” It was my subconscious going “Shut the fuck up!”

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neil-gaiman · 10 months ago

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Good job on being a human. You’re doing good, I like you for your clear mindedness and your general sense of light hearted yet caring thoughtfulness. And you seem to keep a distance from yourself and the mental dishevelment most seem plagued by these days. I hardly know you or your work but I like you a lot these days. Congratulations on making it this far, Neil, we love ya.

You're too kind. I guess I've been properly online now since 1989, and I've learned that the internet isn't real life, that the time you spent worrying about a mean thing someone said online (or coming up with the perfect comeback) is a moment of time you'll never get back, that when people are yelling at you you get to turn the computer/phone off and do something else for a few days, and that you are online for you and not for anybody else.

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emry-stars-art · 1 year ago

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Whumptober day 10: branding/scarring/collar (full under the cut - I might say this one’s slightly more intense)

Did I mention this prompt list fits our Evemore Kingdom needs like almost too well? :,)

Find the royal au masterpost here

(Hey does anyone have any comfort/fluff drawing ideas I can pick from TT)

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ineffable-romantics · 1 year ago

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Some thoughts on why and how I believe Crowley and Aziraphale's relationship would incorporate sex/why I do not read them as wholly asexual:

This is something I've seen the most discourse about in this fandom, and I've had a few thoughts of my own that I really wanted to expand upon in a full meta/character analysis post. I do understand that this can be a contentious topic, so first, let me clarify a few things:

First of all, this is going to be long. Tbh it probably won't be that organized either. I ramble and I'm not very good at editing, so just... you know. Be warned. (*Hi, it's me from 2 days after writing this; I'm really not kidding, it's LONG)

These are all my own thoughts. They might not be hot takes, because recently I've seen more than a few people come to the same conclusions on a lot of these points as I have. But I've also had these notes in my drafts for about a week and a half now, and have been continuously adding to it as things have occurred to me. This post is essentially just somewhere for me to collect the separate but related meta I've been kicking around in my head.

I fully respect anyone who does see and prefer an asexual reading of this relationship. These are my own thoughts and interpretations as someone who is not asexual. I am in the LGBT+ community, so while I do know a few things about the asexuality spectrum, I am by no means an expert.

This is NOT something I expect, need, or even necessarily want the show (or, God forbid, Neil's tumblr ask box) to address. Tonally, it's just not that kind of show. Newt and Anathema's sex scene was very much played for laughs, and it worked for that reason. If the show found a way to address it in a way that was both appropriate for the tone of the show and ultimately satisfying, then great! But there is so much more to this relationship than sex, and I didn't need a kiss to confirm their love, so I certainly don't need a sex scene. As immortal beings (as I assume they'll stay) there is so much of the rest of their lives we'll never get to see. You can headcanon them as asexual and potentially be right. I can headcanon them as not and be equally potentially right. Again, these are just a collection of my own thoughts, because I think the question of sexuality (or lack thereof) is just as interesting a facet of these characters as any other.

Note: Tbh I've been second-guessing this whole post and debated deleting the whole thing several times for being silly or unnecessary, bc I don't want anyone to think that this is the only thing I care about when it comes to this story/characters. But if nothing else, it's inspired me to write in a way that nothing has in a very long time, so I've decided it's worth continuing, if for no other reason than that.

This is going to be a mixed bag of textual reading, subtextual reading, and a full-on reach or two. It's been a while since I've been in an English class, but if my teachers expected me to find a deeper meaning behind blue curtains, you can expect me to read too deeply into the symbolism of a loaded rifle or an ox rib. (This is probably not what my professors had in mind when grading my literary analysis papers but oh well) My point is, if it feels like a reach, I'm as aware of it as you are. I am in no way saying that all (or even any) of my points made were deliberate on the part of Neil or the actors or the writers or the directors. I am no longer the delulu Apple Tree Yard child of my youth, I promise.

If anything said here is in any way offensive or hurtful to anyone in the asexual community, please do not hesitate to message me or comment and let me know exactly what it was. I promise you it is not my intention to do so, and am happy to clarify or outright edit anything that reads that way.

With all that being said, let's talk about why I think Crowley and Aziraphale would absolutely fuck nasty incorporate sex into their relationship.

Note: I am out of practice with essay writing, so I think I'll just go down the bullet points of notes I have been making, and expand on each as best I can

Food

Where better to start than with Aziraphale's introduction to Pleasures Of The Flesh? (Just a heads up, this entire post may feel very Aziraphale-heavy, and with good reason).

This might be the least hot take here. We've all seen the Job minisode. We've all seen That Scene.

Whether this was intentional or not, the symbolism here is off the charts. Eve was tempted by an apple. So why not go a similar route and tempt Aziraphale with another fruit, or cheese, or bread, or literally anything else for his first experience with food? Instead, we go with a huge, glistening slab of fresh meat that he proceeds to absolutely go feral upon, moaning and gasping into his meal while Crowley watches with what definitely doesn't look to be disgust or even satisfaction with a good temptation. There's surprise at the ferocity of Aziraphale's appetite, certainly. But ultimately he looks to be intensely fascinated by it, while the thunder crashes, the music crescendos, and the earth literally shakes around them.

(It's also interesting to note how very little it takes for Crowley to tempt him with the ox rib. One murmured suggestion, a bit of unwavering eye contact, and vavoom Aziraphale immediately meets him in the middle.)

Cut to Aziraphale devouring the rest of the meat with Crowley splayed back on a makeshift bed, drinking wine and continuing to watch him indulge through half-lidded eyes. Outside a thunderstorm rages while they're learning secrets about each other in warm flickering firelight. It's cosy, it's intimate, and if they'd thrown in a bearskin throw blanket, it might as well be a post-coital scene straight out of Game of Thrones.

The next time (chronologically) we see them discuss food is when Aziraphale "tempts" Crowley with oysters in Rome. So Crowley first tempts Aziraphale with meat and then Aziraphale tempts Crowley with what is widely regarded to be an aphrodisiac. Interesting.

And then chronologically after that, the Arrangement begins to form, which has always reeked of a friends with benefits situation. Just to throw that in there.

It's What Humans Do

In the very first episode, we're shown Gabriel's obvious disgust and bewilderment towards Aziraphale eating sushi, calling it "gross matter" and being proud of the fact that he does not sully his body with it. Aziraphale initially tries to defend his own enjoyment in it, before passing it off as something that humans do, as something he simply has to do in order to blend in (which we know very well is not the case).

He does this again in season 2, passing off Nina and Maggie being in love as "something humans do". But it isn't, is it? Angels are beings of love, and can sense it, and understand very well what it is... up to a point. Even romantic love is obviously within their wheelhouse, given what we now know happened between Gabriel and Beelzebub (we'll come back to them).

What the "humans do" that angels wouldn't understand is messy, physical forms of love.

But here's the thing: Aziraphale and Crowley love doing what the humans do. They love drinking, they (or at least Aziraphale) love eating. They love music. Crowley loves driving and sleeping and watching rom-coms and sitcoms. Aziraphale loves reading and doing magic and earning little licenses and certificates for achievement in his various hobbies. They love to playact at being human so much that they've stopped playacting and started building a genuinely human lifestyle for themselves and with each other.

Once together in an unambiguously romantic sense, why do we think they wouldn't also want to explore one of the most prominent, intimate, powerful human expressions of love and desire with each other?

Angels, Demons, & Asexuality

Here's where I really want to clarify that in no way do I mean that sex is necessary for a healthy, fulfilling, and loving romantic relationship, or that the lack of desire for sex makes you any less human. Asexuality is a sexuality as valid and human as any. What I would say is that it is definitely in the human minority compared to allosexuality.

Angels and demons, on the other hand, are predominately asexual. Sexless/genderless unless Making An Effort. (Which, btw, is a concept introduced as early as the original book; why even bring it up as a possibility? Why not keep angels/demons being sexless/asexual as a hard and fast rule, if not to open up the potential for later use? Chekhov's Effort, if you will. And isn't that something that Aziraphale in particular is shown to do time and time again? He makes an effort in French and driving and magic, doesn't he?)

And this is why I don't believe Aziraphale and Crowley necessarily need to be asexual, narratively. There is already a huge amount of ace rep within the angels and demons (and no, not just the horrible ones. Muriel also doesn't "drink the tea" and has no reason or desire thus far to Make An Effort, and there are certainly other angels and demons who aren't horrible like the archangels seem to be who likely wouldn't Make An Effort either).

The central conflict for Aziraphale and Crowley is that they are on their own side, the ones who went native, the ones who are so different in so many ways from their respective hives. It would make sense for them to also break away from traditional angel/demon asexuality.

I say "traditional angel/demon asexuality", because I would also like to note that I would absolutely not rule out demisexuality for either of them. This post is being written to as a response to people who specifically believe that they (like the rest of the angels/demons seem to be) would be sex-averse in a relationship, and that it wouldn't be a factor in their relationship. I could easily read them as demisexual, but I do think there would be no real way of verifying this, because they've never been able to form as close an emotional relationship with anyone else but each other. Certainly not in heaven, and I can't imagine they would be able to form that kind of attachment with any of the humans, who they love and emulate but ultimately regard as the separate species they are. So yes, they could either be allosexual or demisexual, in my opinion.

Then again, now that I think about it, Making An Effort itself could be a great metaphor for demisexuality, since they would be entirely sexless/asexual until they have enough of an emotional connection with someone to consciously manifest otherwise. Since the other angels and demons don't generally form those types of emotional connections with anyone, there hasn't been a precedent for it.

Except...

Brielzebub

We do have a precedent for it now, don't we? Gabriel and Beelzebub fell in love. They are a direct foil for Crowley and Aziraphale's relationship, speedrunning right through their courtship and finding their happily ever after on the other side of things.

For being such a 1 to 1 comparison, it feels deliberate that they did not kiss. They held hands, they were gooey with each other, but they did not kiss. That feels like such a deliberate thing to omit when you know what's to come at the end of the episode between Crowley and Aziraphale.

And going back to the food = sex metaphor for a moment, let's notice how even as they fell in love over the years, even when pints and crisps were there on the table in front of them, they never felt the desire to reach out for them. They didn't need to. It's a date (love story) even if you aren't eating dinner (sleeping together).

Yes, I know Jim liked hot chocolate. No, I am not counting it because I don't consider Jim and Gabriel to be the same person with the same proclivities, and Jim was highly suggestible at the time anyway.

Gabriel and Brielzebub's big happily ever after moment (as of now) was one between two asexual supernatural beings. They did not need to kiss to drive the point home. They showed what Crowley and Aziraphale could have, if they would only acknowledge it.

Crowley & Aziraphale's Dissatisfaction

But they do have that already, don't they? If you really think about it, what do Gabriel and Beelzebub do with each other that Crowley and Aziraphale don't already? They hold hands, they spend time together, they create little rituals, they give gifts, they're visibly and verbally affectionate with each other, etc. They are more or less already in a romantic asexual marriage relationship with each other, aren't they?

And it doesn't seem to be enough for either of them.

At the beginning of the season, Crowley is immediately shown to be unsatisfied with the way things are. Obviously part of it comes from living in his car, but it seems to be more than that (especially since Aziraphale makes it clear that the bookshop is just as much Crowley's as his, implying that he could have been living there the whole time and is choosing not to, for some reason?). You could argue he's feeling unmoored without Hell telling him what to do, but isn't that what he wanted? Isn't that what he still wants, by the end of the season? All season long, he's never indicated the desire for a new job, or a new project. He stopped the apocalypse because he wanted the freedom to openly spend time with Aziraphale, to spend his time on Earth however he sees fit. Until Gabriel arrives, he has exactly that (minus a flat).

So where does the dissatisfaction come from? And if it represents anything to do with his relationship, what does he want out of it that he isn't getting already?

I think Crowley only really comes to the realisation of what he's missing when Nina names it for him, not only putting them in the category of romantic, but physical (outright asking if they are sleeping together). These two posts [1], [2] go into more detail about what I mean, but I think it really pushes him into acknowledging that their relationship is more human than either of them have stopped to consider, and what that might mean as far as everything a human relationship can entail.

After all, Nina and Maggie only advised that he should talk to Aziraphale, make clear his feelings. The decision to kiss him, to tip them over the edge from nonphysical to physical, that was all him. And no, kissing isn't sex, but I wonder how taboo even that might be in the kind of all-encompassing asexuality most angels seem to identify with. (If they're disgusted by food and drink, I can only imagine what they think of snogging, much less sex.)

Aziraphale doesn't have this moment of someone observing their relationship from the outside. He loves Crowley, and as of 1941 probably even knows he's in love with him in a way that Crowley doesn't understand yet. Which makes sense, since love is technically his job, he'd be more likely to recognise it for what it is.

However, Aziraphale's reference for romance and relationships is Jane Austen. It's chaste. It's dancing and dinner and doing sweet things for each other and roses and candles and handholding. He contextualises his love for Crowley in that soft fantasy sort of way, where it's there, it's obviously there, but it's neat and easy and unspoken. Not to quote Glee in this, the year of our lord 2023, but it's all very "the touch of the fingertips is as sexy as it gets".

Someone should tell that to Aziraphale's face, then.

I'm not going to pretend I know what Michael Sheen's script notes were, but there were definitely some Choices™ made. Because yes, there were plenty of moments in both seasons with Aziraphale looking at Crowley in a sweet, loving, smitten way. And then there were moments that were yearning.

But yearning for what, exactly? All of those sappy Jane Austen tropes already apply to the two of them. So why are there moments where Aziraphale is looking Crowley up and down like the last eclair in the window and licking his lips and visibly exhaling like he's trying to get in control of himself (see: Bastille scene + Crowley telling Muriel to ask him if they have any other questions about love)? Why is Aziraphale not only unconcerned when Crowley shoves him bodily up against a wall in s1, but staring at his lips and a beat too late in noticing Sister Mary's arrival? Why are some of his lines so suggestive? I'm sorry, but the car ride after the church explosion might as well have been the beginning of a Pizza Man porn with a really weird Blitz theme. If even my mother picked up on that vibe, I can't imagine it wasn't intentional on part of both the dialogue and the delivery.

(This section may feel like more of a reach/joke, but I'm really only 20% joking. These are writers and actors who are EXTREMELY good at their jobs; they know what they were doing here.)

More importantly, I don't think Aziraphale is even aware that there is more to what he wants. He lives in the Jane Austen fantasy and it never even occurs to him that he might be interested in anything further. It never even occurs to him that, as an angel, there is anything further to be interested in in the first place. Until Crowley forces it to occur to him. Just like I believe Nina forced Crowley to confront the idea that romantic love is what he's been feeling all along, I believe Crowley forced Aziraphale to confront the idea that physical intimacy is something he's been wanting, without even realising.

Aziraphale's Hedonism

Expanding on Aziraphale for a moment. We talked about his relationship with food, but we all know that Aziraphale is defined by his love of things that Feel Good.

It isn't just that he and Crowley love human things. Aziraphale loves the best of the best, or at least his version of it. He doesn't just love food, he loves going to fancy restaurants. He doesn't just love clothes, he loves soft, cosy, warm, plush clothes, or shiny, flashy, bougie fashion. He loves the warmth of tea and cocoa, loves getting drunk, and sitting in a comfy chair in the sunlight. He doesn't just experience, he indulges.

Given the emphasis put on things that Aziraphale loves just because they Feel Good, it feels narratively strange to assume that he wouldn't enjoy the feeling of being touched, or that he wouldn't be willing to try it, at least once, with someone he cared very deeply for. And just like the ox rib, I think that once he gets the first taste of things, he would absolutely tip over into complete and utter self-indulgence.

Dancing

I also think that dancing could be construed as a huge metaphor here. After all, we're told flat-out that angels don't Dance. Except one.

I would argue that Aziraphale, in fact, Made An Effort to learn how to Dance. He threw himself into the gavotte with delight (at a Victorian gay club; noted) and worked hard to be good at it. He's chomping at the bit to Dance with Crowley, working up the nerve to ask him with undeniably romantic intent and eagerness. So, angels don't Dance... unless they Make An Effort to do so.

We are told that demons, on the other hand, do Dance, but not well. Makes sense, since they're the ones who would want to encourage a deadly sin like lust, but have as little understanding of human love and physical intimacy as the angels. Crowley, however, is shown to be an excellent dancer at the ball, especially in his compatibility with Aziraphale.

(But Aziraphale WandaVisioned the ball so everyone knew how to dance! Yes, he did. However, the rest of the brainwashing doesn't seem to affect Crowley in any way, and they did actually live through the time period where this sort of dancing was a social norm; I'd be surprised if he never needed to learn. After all, the demons can't spell either, and Crowley is at least functionally literate, as far as we know.)

As of today, it's also been confirmed that when Aziraphale asked Crowley to dance, Crowley replied with "you don't dance." Not "WE don't dance". So going along with the metaphor, Crowley is just now discovering that Dancing is something Aziraphale is interested in at all, much less with him, and not denying that he himself is interested in Dancing. In his defense, I believe he was asleep for a few years while Aziraphale was learning the gavotte, so he wasn't exactly aware of Aziraphale's hot girl summer.

Love Languages

I want to expand on that; Crowley and Aziraphale's compatibility. Specifically in regards to their individual love languages.

We all know Crowley's love language is Acts of Service. I don't think there's any debate there. He loves it, Aziraphale loves it, they're both aware of it, we're all aware of it, God and Satan are aware of it, no surprise there.

You may disagree with me, but I believe Aziraphale's love language is Physical Touch, for a number of reasons. One of which being his aforementioned hedonism. Aziraphale likes things that Feel Good, remember? He likes soft clothes, and well-worn books. Neil himself has said that they like holding hands. And any time he is taken by surprise (Brielzebub getting together, the wave of love in Tadfield, etc.) what is the first thing he does? Reaches out for Crowley. He stops him with a hand to the chest in the pub. He leads him by the hand to the dance floor. He guides him by the waist in the graveyard. He reaches out during the entire Brielzebub scene, whether he can reach Crowley or not. Despite his own turmoil, he grasps at Crowley's back during the kiss.

The one time Crowley reaches out for him (not counting the kiss yet; we'll get there), he is aggressively pushed against a wall (by someone he loves and trusts) with a complete and utter lack of concern (and perhaps some interest, depending on how you read it).

And when he isn't reaching out for anyone, or there isn't anyone to reach out to? Well, he's wringing his own hands together, squeezing his own fingers, as if to find that physical comfort in himself.

So. With that theory in mind, we have Aziraphale (Physical Touch) + Crowley (Acts of Service). Throw in 6000+ years of deep love, cherished companionship, and forcibly repressed longing, and there is a very real potential of this combination resulting in fierce sexual compatibility. Where Aziraphale would want to touch and be touched, to indulge in physical pleasure with someone he adores, in the same the way he indulges in every other fine thing in his life. And where Crowley would want to indulge him in return, to give him everything he wants, and to take pleasure in Aziraphale's pleasure, in the same way he enjoys watching him take joy in food everything else.

So Aziraphale is an angel who is insecure about his own less-than-holy desires, who would want to treat Crowley like a luxury to be touched and cherished and adored. And Crowley is a demon who has, over the millennia, been unhappy about how they've been forced to deny even their friendship with each other, who would want Aziraphale to feel comfortable and safe and encouraged to indulge in earthly delights. That sounds like a stunning recipe for sexual compatibility to me.

"You said 'trust me'" / "And you did"

Just like the Job minisode, the Blitz is RIFE with symbolism (intentional or otherwise). This one will be quick, but I did want to touch on it because I thought it was interesting. Maybe I'm reaching at this point, but I'm assuming you read the tin.

First of all, Crowley not wanting to admit to never firing a gun before; comes off as someone who very much does not want to admit to their crush that they're a virgin ("You must have done this lots of times!" / "Umm.... yyyyyeah.")

(You could make the argument that Aziraphale having a firearms license and a Derringer in a hollowed-out book is symbolic of him not being a virgin while Crowley is. I disagree, for reasons I'll go into later, but it's a valid reading. However, I see it more like keeping a condom in your wallet; it's there in case you need it, but the opportunity has not yet risen no pun intended.)

More importantly, the theme of this entire minisode is trust. We already know they trust each other with their lives against the rest of Heaven, Hell, and the world. But specifically, this is about the importance of having complete trust in your partner in a charged, physically vulnerable, intimate moment, where the only danger is between the two of you.

Aziraphale needs to believe Crowley would never hurt him if he can help it. Crowley needs to trust Aziraphale's unwavering blind faith in him. Frankly, it all feels very symbolic of two people deeply in love losing their respective virginities with each other.

The trick is a success, and they share an intimate candlelit dinner in which they reaffirm their faith in each other. Aziraphale also begins to voice his agreement with Crowley, that maybe Heaven's rules shouldn't have to be as black and white as they are, and that there are benefits to... blurring the lines, shades of grey, wink wink (at which point even my mom was like, whoa guys, this is a family show).

Btw also: Can we all agree how much it looked like Crowley was getting ready to get a lapdance in that one scene? You know the one.

Also also: "Aim for my mouth"? Come on.

The Birds & The Bees

Now that I think of it, there's also something to be said for the fact that Crowley and Aziraphale are both obviously familiar with where babies come from (how they're made and how they're born) while the other angels aren't.

Something something Aziraphale and Crowley fundamentally understand sex and reproduction in a way the other angels (and probably demons) very much do not, nor have any desire to.

Probably not important. Just thought it was worth mentioning.

The Kiss™ & Religious Trauma

The Kiss. Where to even begin?

This has definitely been the hardest one to start, because there is so much going on here that I definitely won't be able to cover it all, and will certainly miss a few things here and there.

Aziraphale's reaction to the kiss afterwards is the most interesting to me. And I don't mean directly after, I don't mean the "I forgive you" part. I mean the way he touches his lips when Crowley is no longer in the room and he no longer needs to save face, when he is completely alone. Had it been directly after the kiss, it would have been rightfully read as horror, or disgust, a shield to discourage further action.

It's not. It isn't just a touch, it's a press. As desperate and angry and unexpected and imperfect as the kiss had been, Aziraphale is pressing it into himself, recreating the feeling as best he can. Beneath all the poor timing and shock and hurt from their fight and fallout, I think it's fair to say that it was something he enjoyed. Something he doesn't think he should enjoy, something that Feels Good that he only allows himself to indulge in when completely alone.

Remember, Aziraphale's idea of love is Jane Austen and gentleness and courtship and fantasy. If he'd ever even considered kissing an option, it might have been gentle pecks, cheek kisses, forehead kiss, hand kisses. Soft, safe, chaste affection.

Crowley's kiss turns all of that on its head. He introduces physical intimacy in a very real, very messy, very human way that I don't think Aziraphale ever even considered could apply to them. Considering what other angels are like and what they look down on, even Aziraphale's Jane Austen fantasies probably would have been considered taboo.

So for their first kiss to be rough and desperate and passionate in the way it was, of course he was confused and in shock. It was deeply physical, and as overwhelming and awful as it was in the moment, it Felt Good. Enough that he grasped at Crowley and kissed back, if only just for a moment, before stopping himself. Enough that he actively pressed it into his lips afterwards, in private, to remember.

I adore how Neil has decided to evolve these characters past the first book/season. More so in this season, Aziraphale and Crowley have both become such interesting allegories for queer people on either side of the spectrum of toxic religion. Aziraphale in particular obviously, because he is the side that so desperately wants to believe, to make a difference, and to unlearn all of the propaganda he's been fed over such a long time. Just like so much of organised religion, there is so much that he is told, time and time again, that he should not want, that he is silly or stupid or outright wrong for wanting. It reminds me so much of the severe Catholic guilt one might feel for wanting/engaging in sex for the first time, and the stigma of being queer layered on top of that.

What is so critical to Aziraphale's character is that he goes on wanting, and more than that, actively pursues. He was convinced to go up against Heaven and Hell and stop all of Armageddon because he wanted to go on listening to music and eating lunch and reading books and enjoying the simple company of the person he cares most deeply for, even if that person is supposed to be the enemy.

All this to say that if angels are as generally asexual/sex-averse as I believe them to be, narratively speaking, it would make sense for Aziraphale to be singular in that regard as well. Mirroring his first experience with food, it would make sense for Crowley to be the one to first introduce this new messy, physical, human dynamic between them, for Aziraphale to hesitate (obviously we are at the Hesitation phase at the moment), and then (eventually) for him to dive in wholeheartedly, to absolutely glut himself on this new thing that Feels Good. It would make sense for his character development to show him overcoming his metaphorical Catholic guilt and pursuing the sexual intimacy most (if not all) of the other angels would scorn.

(I can't help but remember that plot idea Neil described from the unwritten sequel, with Aziraphale in a hotel room trying to watch a full porno by way of the free 2-minute teaser clips so he wasn't technically sinning by paying for it. I so hope this is used in season 3, because gosh, I wonder why Aziraphale would suddenly be so interested in observing human physical intimacy after 6,000 years. Lonely and doing a little surreptitious research there, angel?)

Crowley, on the other hand, is the queer person who has broken free from his toxic religion. He prides himself on being his own person, on their his own side. He doesn't have the hang-ups Aziraphale does. He doesn't worry that he's going to be judged or cast aside for wanting things he's not supposed to. So it only makes sense for him to be the first one to suggest/initiate physical intimacy. It makes sense for him to be the one who "goes too fast" (another fantastic example of this dynamic beginning as early as s1; what is that conversation in the car meant to represent, if not Aziraphale being overwhelmed by the intensity of their relationship, and his fear of succumbing to it when he believes he shouldn't? It's also interesting that this is the first conversation to take place in Soho, just after watching Aziraphale realise he's caught feelings for a demon, with the red glow of lust serving as the backdrop).

Do I think the kiss in and of itself was sexual? No. I think it was a passionate and devastating last-ditch effort on Crowley's part to convey the way he feels for Aziraphale. Not just that he loves him, but that he loves him in the most human way possible. But I do think that the kiss represents how they can move forward from here, and what they might want to explore with each other once they feel free enough to do so.

In Conclusion

I am sure, deep in my bones (unless we are explicitly told otherwise), that this was both of their first kisses no, I'm not counting the gavotte, and that neither of them have ever thought to do anything else physical with the humans while they have been on Earth. Like I said before, they adore the human race and lifestyle in general, but ultimately view them as a separate species altogether, and they seem mostly happy to keep to themselves and each other, unless otherwise necessary. I just can't see either of them being drawn enough to a human to pursue anything close to sex. If Crowley in particular has had anything to do with sex in the context of temptations, I'm positive he would be inciting lust amongst the humans themselves, not involving himself directly. At least not that directly.

So, like every other human experience they've had on Earth, sex is something new that they could explore together, just the two of them, on their own side. A deeply intimate, tangible declaration of their love and everything they've gone through to earn it. A visceral finger to give both Heaven and Hell. A renewed appreciation for their corporations and for each other's. A enjoyable method for immortal beings to simply pass the time in each other's company. A new and exciting way to Feel Good, and all the variations that come with it.

You might agree with this post, or you might not. Whether this is something that is ever addressed or not, it doesn't matter to me. This is a brilliant love story either way, and I genuinely feel so privileged to witness it.

But I just can't find it in myself to imagine, given everything we know about these two characters, that sex isn't an experience they would both consume with wholehearted enthusiasm, curiosity, and profound, ineffable adoration.

___________________________________

Bonus feature: the very silly notes I made to myself that inspired this post

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welcometohellfilm · 1 month ago

Note

Congrats to everyone who has been working on W2H2! 🎉 If it's alright, I'd like to ask to ask 2 questions:

Is there by chance an official ref of colors for Debbie, or is it still up to interpretation at the moment?

Would you say that your personal, real life experiences within the 10 years moving from W2H to W2H2 shifted the tone/story of the series in some way? Something that I've always been fascinated with when I started looking more into W2H was the shift in Sock's character from the original comic -> first film -> second film, and Jonathan's character from the first film -> second film.

Thank you! ✨

I actually just made some 'official'-ish colors for Debbie! Her voice actor Kaitlyn wanted something to use on a banner for conventions haha... so here you go!

2. I'm not really sure how to answer this one, haha. I mean I've definitely changed as a person over the course of making each iteration of W2H. I started the comic while I was at community college, before I went to art school. I adapted it into an animation for my graduation project. And I started W2H2 a couple years after I graduated college. So there's a good 2-3 years between each attempt at W2H I've done, haha. I think a lot of my original ideas from the comic had to change because it needed to be condensed into a short film. I didn't even GET to Jonathan yet in the comic! Some things just didn't make sense to me anymore, like the idea of Sock already having a human body count. It'd just be absurd for him to be able to hide it for so long! Plus, if I made it so that Sock has only ever entertained the idea of murder, it makes his new job that much more appealing-- it's a chance for him to really lean in to this thing he's always had to hide. Between the first and second films though, I mean... I think there's been some tonal shift, for sure (I don't know about a character shift? We'll get to that haha) But basically, when I was first thinking about W2H2, my idea was "Sock and Jonathan hang out and attempt to figure out touch physics, also there's some drama about a journal Jonathan keeps." All of the hell stuff is something that came from bouncing ideas around with my friends, Michael and Neil. I was worried that sending Jonathan to hell would be too bonkers for a "2nd episode", but we all kinda agreed that enough time had passed that the fans would probably enjoy something higher stakes, so it would be fine. (I'll give everyone a moment to realize this conversation would've been happening in 2015-16... ha.)

We also kind of thought, y'know... I have no idea how many more of these there's even gonna' be, so why not go a little bigger with this one? W2H2 is a higher stakes story than what I set out to make in the beginning, that's for sure. It is interesting to compare all of them.. the employee handbook was actually from the comic and I cut that because it wasn't helpful for W2H... but then it became helpful for W2H2, so it came back! Haha. I'm curious to know in what ways people think the characters have changed though. (And is that a good thing or a bad thing?) Especially a character like Jonathan, no one's really even seen that much of him yet, I think most of the characterization comes from fandom, or like... art I've drawn, I guess? Haha... I'm not sure! I guess Sock's a little more confident and antagonistic in this one (though he'll have his moments of hesitation... we're only at Part 1 right now!), and Jonathan has had to become a more vocal/active character, just by nature of the kind of story it is, I suppose. But yeah, I'm not sure! Happy to hear your guys' thoughts though!

#ask #answered ask #faq #question #debbie #sock #jonathan #w2h2

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love7poetry · 2 months ago

Text

✮˚. ᵎᵎ I LOVE YOU I'M SORRY 𖦹彡⋆｡˚

⤷ spidey!ellie williams headcanons

⋆౨ৎ˚⟡˖ ࣪ sophia's letter ! i took a hiatus without meaning to😞 unfortunately this is all i had time for, but it was lowk fun. tbh i think i’ll stick to one shots bc this is basically a few blurbs in one, like this is all over the place idk i don’t like it but i needa post. also, LIAAAM NOOO all payne no liam :((

.ᐟ. . . content warnings. r's race is not specified, characters death, spiders, fighting, unrequited love, r is bi/pan, ellie mistaken for a guy, ellie mistakes r for a straight girl, mental instability, fall from a high building twice, alternative universe, assault attempt, unserious writing style, grammar mistakes probably

{ inspired by @hiiikiko ‘s spider-man!ellie. pls check out their work, it’s so good ! }

do not support naughty dog or zionist neil druckmann

HELP HERE🇵🇸

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie personally i think she's already a peter parker varient, trust me. these goofballs haunted down the killer of their father-figure for christ sake! of course peter had that whole not killing moto but like... oh well!

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie in my mind gets her powers basically the same as in tasm, except she was only in the Anderson Tower (hehe see what i did there) bc one of her professors assigned a thesis on one of their exhibitions. of course she goes the same day you do, the girl she lowkey has a crush on.

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie is a major LOSER omg. she admires you from afar bc she doesn't have the balls to start a conversation. she doesn't even think you're into girls to begin with so whats the point. leave it to ellie williams to fall for a straight girl smh

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie needs glasses to see or else everything is just a blur. she never takes them off, not even to sleep, yet somehow she doesn't see you until it's too late. now, ellie only ever sees you in class, so in her defense, poor girl wasn't expecting you to just appear in front of her and bump into you. otherwise, she would've turned the other way.

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie has an apology problem, at least when she's nervous and boy do you make her nervous with your hair down and pretty face and glossy lips and cute outfits and gosh, she needs to get a grip. you tell her it's fine with a little laugh and ellie feels her face grow warm.

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie like canon ellie, is an overthinker, so of course she's thinking abt that awkward interaction. well, it was for her, you didn't even think twice abt it. you're a chill person and it wasn't like ellie shoved you hard. ellie didn't have that kind of strenght... not yet, anyway.

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie was just too distracted to notice a colorful spider jump on her back, only feeling a sting after stepping foot out of the mutlibillion dollar company tower. you can imagine her disturbed look when she got to her dorm, feeling around her neck until she plucked off a web string with a dead spider still attached on its end. yuck. to make matters worse, ellie started feeling sick. she passed out and didn't wake up until noon of the next day.

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie was an orphan after her mother passed away when she was nine. she was left under the care of her mother's best friend, marlene, since that was the closest thing to family she had left. to ellie, marlene was family, so she'd called her aunt marlene. i think you can guess where this is going...

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie had promised marlene she would help with a charity event called the fireflies, but with ellie's new... condition, ellie just had too much on her mind. trying to balance college, having a lesbian crush on a straight girl, and finding out you can climb walls is a lot for a nineteen year old. and okay, maybe the first two are universial experiences, but definitely not the third. who is she supposed to talk to abt that?

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie was stressing and she never had the best temper when stressed. she had been focusing in creating organic web fluid bc in my au shes not gonna have anything shooting out of her, okay? i mean i still have some questions for tobey's spidey.... moving on! the charity simply slipped out of her mind and when ellie checked her phone after an entire day of testing her new abilities, swinging and even doing a handstand in just her index and middle fingers, she saw abt fifteen missed calls from aunt marlene. ellie decided to stop by to apologies and that’s when all hell broke lose.

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie acts like her mother's death doesn't bother her after a decade, but when her name falls out of aunt marlene's lips during her lecture abt ellie's bad puntuality and lack of time managment, it was obvious it's still an open wound.

'you are a lot like your mother, ellie,' marlene spoke. so far ellie was just nodding along to whatever marlene was saying but that sentence really annoyed the hell out of her. 'you truly are, and that's a good thing.' ellie's jaw tightened, but she didn't say anything. 'but she lived believing that if you can do good things for people, you have an obligation to do those things,' marlene pointed a finger at ellie's direction. 'that's what's at stake here. not choice; responsibility.' ellie scoffed. 'that's nice. yea, that’s all well and good. so where's she?' 'what?' marlene stops. 'where is my mom? don't you think it was her responsibility to tell me this herself?' the words coming out of her mouth taste like venom. there's tears threatening to spill, but ellie refuses to let them fall. marlene exhales, shaking her head. 'how dare you?' ellie raises her voice for the first time that night. "how dare i? how dare you!'

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie never got the chance to apologize for snapping at marlene. she knew deep down that marlene was just looking out for her, yet she was too in her head to see it then. ellie had stormed out right after and marlene went out looking for her. and it was the same thief that ellie did nothing to stop as she witness him rob a deli and even handed her a drink which she took without a second thought who killed marlene that night.

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie will never forgive herself for that, for not stopping the thief and letting him kill the one person she had left. since then, ellie uses her powers to help others.

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie also has a joel in this universe and he's finally being introduced, yippe! im mixing andrew's and tom's peters so i couldn't make him the uncle ben ik y'all thought he was gonna be. he's more like mcu's aunt may and tony. now bare with me pls

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie made herself a suit out of old clothes and a handmade mask. she'd been going around the neighborhood for a few weeks doing small things: returning stolen bikes, bringing cats down from trees, helping senior citizens cross the street, etc. there were no headlines on her yet, but she was growing popular on reddit. it wasn't until one day ellie felt this weird chill down her spine. everything happened so fast, ellie just remembers the after math, the adrenaline rush of catching a 3000 pounds car going at 40 miles with her bare hands to stop it from crashing into a school bus. that was the first time ellie saved a live, multiple at that, and she knew this is what she wanted- no, needed to do.

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie had kept a low profile as her alter ego until then. never would she imagine that the video of her stopping a moving vehicle would get in the hands of the joel miller, ceo of miller industries. he's known of the expirements jerry had been doing with all sorts of animals and he didn't like it. joel never thought jerry had it in him to actually modify the human dna, but here he stood with a wall-crawling college student.

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie didn't fangirl like mcu peter did when he met tony for the first time (i miss them). in fact she had the opposite reaction. she wasn't a fan of joel just like you and i aren't a fan of elon musk, but she respected him bc he has a flying suit. in this universe, joel was iron man and like tony, he told the entire world. when one of his enemies' killed sarah, he stopped wearing the suit. there's also no avengers bc that's too much writing for me 😇

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie agrees to work with joel only bc he promised to make her a super cool suit with lots of new tech. he said her homemade suit looked like an onesie and the only insult ellie could come up with was that his face looked like an onesie... oh how did joel wished the one to get bit would've been a grown adult smh

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie learns to be more in tune with her new abilities as time goes by. that chill down her spine, yea remember that? obviously we know they're spidey senses, but ellie doesn't know that, not until now. she kinda put two and two together, how she would get the feeling every time something bad was gonna happen. what pissed her off was that she had a you sense too. her stupid enhanced senses told her when you were near, but it only happened with you. like, what the fuck seriously

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie is still a loser even after the bite so of course she has yet to talk to you. you now acknowledge her after the incident at the anderson tower, but it's just smiles if you two make eye contact. god, ellie feels so pathetic abt this clearly unrequited crush. until one day she overhears - not that she did it on surpose, it just happens a lot with her enhanced hearing - you talking about her! well... her alter ego, but it's still her.... yea, abt that actually....you and everyone else seem to think she’s a he?????

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie is part of the tiny tittie committie as we know, so when she puts on joel's new and upgraded suit, she looks flat chested. she wasn't insecure of her size or anything, but ever since publicly teaming up with joel and gaining more publicity, people have mistaken her for a man, giving her the title of spider-man. it made her bust out laughing tbh

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie started seeing her masked self almost everywhere, especially in classes. that's when she heard you and your friend talk abt her, or well him.

'i need him,' ellie almost choked on air hearing you speak. you were watching a video compilation on tiktok of spider-man saving people with chloe, a friend you made during the beginning of the semester. 'ew, he could be like your dad's age.' chloe laughed. ellie frowned, sitting a few rows back. she is definitely not old enough to be a college student's dad. as a matter of fact, she can't even be a dad so. you smiled at chloe and shrugged. 'that wouldn't matter, because what matters is what's on the inside.' it was clear that you were joking, but as ellie looked up to where you were sitting she wondered how you would react if you found out it was a girl you were talking about. would it matter? would you still like her then? or would you be disappointed?

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie tries to get over this crush by focusing on spider-boy, or wtv his name is. ever since becoming the city's hero, it's like everything has been dial up to eleven. crime fighting is far more intense but ellie likes the challenges. she's gotten a little cocky too, always joking and teasing the criminals she fights. her suit has a voice changer and she has a blast using it.

'my grandma punches better than you,' she'd fake a yawn while grabbing the fist of one of the robbers when he tried to throw a punch. then she'd turn to the other who is already webbed up, 'actually, i never met my grandma.' then she'd punch the first guy just hard enough to kick him out cold. ‘but i bet her punches are still better.’

another instance is when she stopped a pretty big drug deal. about five men were going over what the plan was for the day, none noticed when ellie sneaked in until what seemed to be the leader grunted, 'you guys know what to do, now stay out of my ass.' ellie sighed loudly, 'it's hard to miss it.'

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie is just having the time of her life with this new identity that it becomes addicting, it's like her copying mechanism fr. joel starts noticing that ellie has become sloppy and tries to warn her, and although ellie promises she'll do better, she doesn't. she's saving lives, jesus christ. can’t a girl have fun?

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie learns the hard way that not everyone is a fan, especially not the police. and okay yea that humbled her alr. it also annoys her bc she's doing half their job so you'd think they'd be more appreciative but no they named her a criminal and put out a reward for whoever can discover the vigilante's identity. now she has to put in double the work bc everyone she fights tries to pin her down to take off her mask. ellie really dislikes your mother for that, the police captian of the boston police department - bc im messy hehehe. you're like in love with spider-man tho, and are quite vocal abt it too

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie loves to hear you fangirl over her. like okay you're unaware of a lot of minor details - like the fact that it's actually spider-woman - but that’s okay, it's fineeee! baby steps right? well ellie takes a huge big girl step one night when she saves you from a gross man trying to assault you.

her spidey senses were going off, and she let them take her to a dark alley. she heard the voice of a girl struggling to push someone off as she crawled on the wall. ellie froze when she realized it was you, her heart beat picking up. this is the first time someone she knows is in trouble, and it made her feel uneasy. 'buddy, is this anyway to treat a lady?' ellie jumped down, voice changer on, making both you and the sick drunk to look over at her. 'i don't think so,' she grabbed him by the shoulder and pushed him to the ground, off of you. 'go.' she spoke, a little desperate to get you out of here. you stood in shock until you looked up at your savior and then booked it out of there. you run further into the alley until you made it to the other end, turning back behind you once you’re under a lamppost. you frowned when you couldn't see anyone. where did they go? ellie held onto a web while she came down upside down. feeling movement, you turned and came face to face with masked eyes looking back at you. 'you saved me.' it was her job, of course she would save you, but no words came out. all ellie did was nod. there was a moment of silence as you two stared at each other, both out of breath. you from prior events, and ellie because she's never been this close to you. you slowly brought your hands up to ellie's neck where the mask began. ellie quickly grabbed one of your wrists to stop you, but you reassured her. 'i won't take it off,' you whispered. ellie let go of your hand and felt you pull her mask up to her nose so only half of her face showed. you held onto the sides of her face as you lean in to kiss her lips. ellie knew it was wrong, that in a way she was abusing her power. but when your lips connected with hers, all she could think about was how soft you felt. there was no way she would get over you now.

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie swang you home that night and ever since she visits you almost everyday, im talking five days out of the week. girl has it BAD after that kiss #freemygirl frfr😞 the visits start innocent and it wasn't like ellie was expecting anything, but somehow you two end up making out and who is ellie to stop it ok? she is just a girl. i mean she does feel bad at the beginning bc you STILL believe she's a male - in your defense, ellie still keeps her mask half way on even in a make out session as well the voice changer. you understand that "he" just wants to keep "his" identity a secret, especially after your mom's manhunt, so you don't question it. and that makes ellie feel even worse.

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie was planning on telling you, i swear, but then joel found out ellie was seeing a girl and he warn her not to tell you anything. she was abt to cuss him out until he told her she was alr putting you in danger by being associated with a crime fighting hero, you knowing who is under the mask would just make you a bigger target. not to mention your own mother still hates her guts, and is putting you in multiple uncomfortable situations.

'can i at least tell her i'm a girl?' ellie questioned, already fed up by this conversation. she rubbed the bridge of her nose before looking up at joel, who she had grown to look up to as a mentor. although they still bicker. joel sighed, 'we talked about this, kiddo. if people keep thinking there's a spider-man, the changes of finding out your identity are low.' 'she won't tell anyone.' ellie trusts you. in the time that you've been together, you haven't told any of your friends that you're up in your room with none other than boston's masked vigilante. you kept this part of your life like an oath, and ellie appreciates you for it. however, joel doesn't know you like she does. 'have you forgotten who her mother is? this could be a set up, and you're falling for it.' ellie shakes her head. 'she's not like that.' 'look, if it had been any other girl, i would've said go for it. but she's the daughter of the woman who wants to turn you in, dead or alive.' ellie looks away from joel, but he continues. 'we gotta be smart about this.' ellie sighs, nodding. 'okay.'

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie wants to go up to you in person as herself whenever she sees you in class, but knows she can't. like what do you mean her tongue was exploring your mouth just the night before but now you two are back to strangers????? it's driving her crazyyy and she feels so stupid and so guilty. it doesn't matter how many people she saves, ellie feels like she's going to hell for doing this to you. yet she can’t stop, not now, she’s addicted to your taste and when she sees you as her masked self later that day, she smacks her lips against yours for all the times she felt the argue to kiss you as ellie but couldn't.

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie is still bitter towards joel for not letting her confess her secret to you but they've grown close and he is helping her find out why jerry anderson would create radioactive spiders. they don't find much until the top of the anderson tower bursts into flames. boston for sure thought they were going to be the next 9/11 but thanfully ellie got everyone out safetly. it was afterwork hours so not a lot of people were there, but when ellie went back to make sure she didn't miss anyone, a sinister laugh echoed. ellie's body went cold and her spidey senses were going crazy. if you couldn't tell jerry is the green goblin in this au but i still picture willem dafoe bc he's just TEW good as the green goblin so im recasting him as jerry 😁

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie definitely has a whole panic attack after being thrown against multiple walls by this not so kind dr anderson. she was just so overstimulated and physically hurt that it was all too much at once. this is ellie's first big villian and the old man can punch alr

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie has friends - dina and jessy ofc, but they’re unaware of her double life. ik i said she's a loser and i haven't mention them, but in my au her and abby were childhood friends until abby was sent to boarding school. they're literally peter and harry, you get me? so like norman, jerry was also neglectful and wouldn't pay attention to abby's friends, especially ones from so long ago, but ellie remembers him - also bc who wouldn't know the jerry anderson - and she knows that whatever she fought that night wasn't jerry, not entirely. he had this crazy look in his eyes and creepy smile, flying around in a hoverboard, accusing her of stealing his powers. yikes, awkward...

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie continues to fight him for some time, trying to figure out what the hell happened to him and how to help him. along with discoverying about anderson's sickness, ellie also finds out her mom used to work with jerry and she's the one who created the formula to cross-species genetics. yup, that really sent her spiraling - also im so uncreative and unoriginal im stealing from tasm bc ellie's mom also sabotaged the formula and added her dna into the equation, which is why ellie got her powers while jerry went nuts. okay he also gained some abilities but at what cost?

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie goes to your place after finding all of this shit out without telling you any of it, but just being near you helps her calm down. at this point, she knows so much abt you and you so little abt her, but you don't seem to mind. you tell her that you've been fighting a lot with your mom recently, and ellie listens. it's nice to talk abt other things to get her mind off of wtv is happening in her messed up life. you ask her if her parents know what she does, and for some reason, ellie opens up. she tells you the few memories she has of her mother, something she's never done with anyone apart from marlene but even then those moments were rare, more so now that's she gone too.

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie is letting her guard down around you more and more, that she doesn't realize she's being followed. in her mind, your apartment is a safe place so why would she need to be on alert? well ima tell you why: her spidey senses woke her up in the middle of the night, but she dismisses them since she's been anxious for the past few days. it isn’t until later when she goes to class, the one with you in it, that her senses go off again, stonger this time after not seeing you enter through the doors at all. you've been late before, but never absent since attendance is mandatory in this class. she rushes to your apartment after class thinking maybe you're sick - which she knows isn't the case bc she saw you last night and you were perfectly fine. when she gets there, there's a green note sitting eerly on your bed waiting for her. 'WHAT HAVE YOU DONE, SPIDER-GIRL'

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie feels like she's going to throw up. jerry knows and he has you. ellie spends all day trying to locate you with joel's help. they were able to track jerry's/green goblin's last location to be in an abandoned clock tower on the outskirts of boston. without wasting anymore time, ellie rushes there.

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie gets to the clock tower as the last bits of sunlight set in the horizon. she climbs up and peaks through one of the broken windows. there, she sees you tied up to a pull with your arms above you kinda like mary jane in the spider-man 2. ellie couldn't see jerry anywhere but her focus was to get your out of here so very quietly she went in. you tried to warn her but by the time she removed the ropes on your wrists, a little pumpkin bomb landed next to her, exploding and making both you fall. i won't write the entire scene but i'll tease something - fyi when i say clock tower, think tasm2 gwen's death scene

jerry - or the green goblin - held you in his arms as his board hovered over ellie. he grabbed your jaw harshly, forcing you to keep your teary eyes on ellie. her gaze remained low after taken off her mask. she was following the goblin's instructions, too terrified of something happening to you. yet, she couldn't bring herself to meet the look of betrayal in your eyes. 'no, that can't be,' goblin mocked, and ellie never wanted to punch someone as much as she does right now. 'where is spider-man? i could've sworn there was a man under the mask. i thought so, did you, pretty face?' his neck turned to look at you, question ringing with faux surprise. ellie clenched her fists, finally looking up at the goblin. 'you got what you wanted, now let her go!' goblin broke into a crazy smile. 'i want you dead, spidey! i need your blood!' 'you have me. just, let her go and we can talk about this.' ellie took a few careful steps forward. the goblin chuckled before nodding, 'okay.' then he pushed you off his board. 'no!' ellie tried to jump after you, but the goblin took a hold of her and threw her against a wall across the platform she was standing.

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie starts seeing joel as a father figure that night after he shows up in the suit. nobody had seen joel as iron man in years, but he couldn't let the girl he had grown to care for as a daughter fight alone. he got you to the ground safely before going back to help ellie fight the goblin. unfortunately he managed to escape but they were able to get a sample of his blood to start working on a cure.

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie puts her mask back on before going up to you. she's holding onto her side, for sure with a few broken ribs that will heal in a week thanks to her fast self healing, and a limp on her walk. you're still shaken up from everything, from being kidnap and finding spidey's identity. you look at her with this unreadable expression and ellie starts trying to explain herself. joel flies down, interrupting the conversation to tell you it was his idea not to tell you anything, but before you can speak, sirens are heard outside the tower.

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie watches as you run to your mom, hugging her as she asks you if you're hurt. ellie stands to the side doing that thing where her foot fidgets with the dirt and she starts playing with her hands, lowk feeling lonely. that’s when joel will come in with a hand on her shoulder, telling her she did good and that almost makes her break down. dw guys, i promise they won’t end up like mcu peter & tony or game ellie & joel🥹

✮⋆˙ᖭི༏ᖫྀ ˙⋆ ✮ spidey!ellie doesn't see you in class after that, not for a week. she also doesn't go to your place to respect the fact that you most definitely need space. you're kinda mad at ellie, but you're feelings are still there. if only she had been honest from the beginning. obviously you recognized her from class, so after a week you go up to her. annndddd this is where im ending this bc i have an exam to study for but yea yea you end up forgiving her and all that lovey-dovey stuff, hope y’all liked this chaotic headcanon

˚ ༘ 🦕𖦹⋆｡˚

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