#naruto and the shinobi world vs sasuke and itachi

[uchiha-itachi-amaterasu]

Uchiha Sasuke

Naruto and the Shinobi World vs Sasuke and Itachi

[not-so-terrible]

Konoha: Wow, it’s so great our double agent within the Uchiha Clan has the selfless Will of Fire, completely cancelling out the possibility for trauma, repressed emotion and deep love to trigger the Curse of Hatred and cause them to sacrifice the many for the few they care about. We can relax and leave it all to him :)

Itachi, trapped on a burning clifftop, wrapping Sasuke in duct tape in preparation to throw him over the edge: ~ I will kill our friends and family to remind ☽  you ☺ of ♬ my ☮ love ☠ ~

[team7-headquarter]

I love how grim was the original Naruto.

I really miss when adults were portrayed like that, like actual soldiers who had to indulge in several vices to control their PTSD. They smoke or do drugs or read porn or drink or become addicted to work or physical exercise. They are all perverted in their own ways, broken, traumatized, damaged.

I miss when they had big ass scars and when you could tell they were shinobis used to killing for a living just by looking at them.

I miss how Kishimoto used the kids view to make everything look kinda innocent at first, but slowly turned everything worse the more that they lived to reveal to real shinobi world, not how the kids dreamed it to be.

There was something so appealing to it, to the contrast of innocence vs a world submerged in war and violence.

Kakashi starts the Land of the Waves arc being a funny dude with hearts in his speech bubbles and it progresses to Kakashi putting his hand through Haku's heart with a chidori. There's suicide and there's extortion and there's old men molesting Sakura and people being crucified and genocide and corruption and—

There are moments when you can feel the reality of their violence, like when Orochimaru appeared on The Forest of Death. He showed Sasuke and Sakura with a genjutsu how he'd decapitate them. Like when Hiruzen gave his soul to a demon to try and seal Orochimaru's soul too. Like when Gaara started killing people by exploding them with his sand. Like when Rock Lee was told that if he went along with the surgery he could die and if he did not he would never walk again. Like Orochimaru experimenting with kids or like when Neji revealed the secondary branch of the Hyuugas were slaves marked like cattle that would only find freedom if dead. Like Itachi forcing Sasuke to live again and again the Uchiha massacre with a genjutsu.

Shippuden has a lot of it. It is brilliant at times, but doesn't have the consistency of the original.

[narutocharacterpolls]

SEMIFINALS

HATAKE KAKASHI vs MAITO GAI

Reasons for submission under the cut

Kakashi

relatable as an adult

he is just an overworked guy who was told to watch some kids w LOTS of issues

needs therapy

good presence and guidance in Narutos life

interesting

cares about and is dedicated to his students very much

he is just cool

he is trying his best despite what he has been through in the past

is up for having fun but still knows when to be serious

was a narcissistic shit but grew out of it

has good intentions

sexy

wonderfully complex and well developed character

incredibly resilient and supportive

a sad and deeply broken man

always willing to give his life to protect them and his other precious people

just wanted everything to be ok for once in his life

hated Danzo

his friendship with Gai is adorable

the way he teases Tenzo is fun

he’s known as cool and aloof but in reality he’s a huge dork

Gai would want him to win

Gai

was instrumental in the success of the story - he may not have won against Madara, but he put fear in him and had it not been for hacks, he would have decimated him where no one else could

believes whole-heartedly in his student to the point of dedicating his life to making him a splendid ninja

came from nothing, worked his way up from nothing, and is now considered to be one of the greatest shinobi to have come out of the Hidden Leaf. People know and fear him

made Itachi bail. That man was ready to fight everyone else, but packed it up when Gai came on the scene

kicked Jiraiya in the face and never properly apologized

great salesperson - always has a spare jumpsuit to give to passers-by and hook them on his favorite brand. True influencer and fashion icon

had a bowl cut before it was cool

was a great friend to Kakashi, and was there for him during the highs and lows of his horrifically stressful life. Arguably saved Kakashi's life with his constant support, and the story could not have happened without him. Is considered by Kakashi - one of the most powerful and infamous shinobi in the world - to be his equal and his best friend

loves kids. Supports his own students like he was their father, and equally takes pride in Naruto and protected Sasuke after Sasuke's first run in with Itachi

in the anime, he is shown to be hard on the outside but clearly permissive in that he would sneak Chouji food in the middle of a mission and try to push Naruto into figuring out who Minato was

confident in himself and confident in others - he is everyone's biggest cheerleader and he isn't just talk; he'll work hard with you. When he says he'll do something, nothing will stop him and he will follow his promises even when no one is watching.

hot. Man has pretty privilege

amazing, supportive teacher and friend

he is always trying to be positive in such a dark world and cheer up those around him

he's so good to Lee, Tenten, and Neji, you can just tell how much he cares about those kids

his speech to Lee was super moving. He knew Lee was scared and made sure to be there for him

he was ready and willing to die to defeat Madara in order to save the others

an actual decent upstanding father figure

unbridled whimsy

excellent tits

[luna-blood]

I was debating on YouTube about Sasuke but YouTube deletes comments, especially those that have a link. It was also difficult for me to search for the publications. So I gave myself the task of collecting posts from all Sasuke fans and neutral critics of the work 'Naruto' that talk about Sasuke and his relationship with the other Naruto characters. I have also included my contributions, such as questions to other users and post responses. I hope this post helps you when you need support when you are debating in favor of Sasuke. Without anything else to say, I leave you the links:

Positive qualities of Sasuke.

Sasuke's chakra is extremely powerful, voluminous, and denser than Senjutsu chakra!

It is false that Bee could have killed Sasuke any time he wanted.

¡Sasuke has been shown to nullify mortal wounds with Raiton!

Sasuke is literally the first person to survive the Raikage's Liger Bomb.

All Sasuke received from Raikage was a small lip bleed, while Raikage lost an arm and another Kage, Gaara, had to intervene to save his leg and his life.

Orochimaru's "physical condition" has nothing to do with his ritual and Sasuke's victory.

Analysis Sasuke vs Deidara.

Sasuke killed Danzo; he did not commit suicide.

Are Itachi and Kakashi really prodigies at the level their fans believe them to be? No.

The only reason Naruto managed to hurt Kaguya was because Sasuke forced her to change dimensions more than once and she herself had changed dimensions about four times in total.

Because Sasuke haters say that Haku is simply more tragic and a better person than Sasuke; and Batman too!

What is it about Sasuke that provokes people so much, compared to all the other fictional characters (in and out of Naruto) who have done bad things? Gaara was killing people for fun in part 1, but no one ever complains about him not being punished. Zuko from ATLA burned down a village of civilians, sent a hitman after Team Avatar, and was just lucky that no civilian was injured/killed, but everyone adores him. But Sasuke is unredeemable for threatening to destroy the village?

A back and forth on why Sasuke is a much better realized character, with thematic and narrative depth, compared to Kurapika and Zuko.

Sasuke is the imperfect victim unlike the perfect victims of ATLA and Full Metal Alchemist.

Sasuke's character is too good for the Naruto universe.

Are people upset that Sasuke was going to let the Shinobi Alliance perish?

Sasuke as a feminist icon.

Sakura is a female incel.

Sakura is a narcissistic.

Sakura inserted herself because she wanted validations from people who were out of her league, that's why. She is perfect for self-insert.

The mere idea of turning over an entire manga in your head in which Sasuke hides a raging boner (at age 12) for Sakura is... repulsive. Don't you have anything better to do?

Sasuke never kissed Sakura.

The blow on the forehead is not the maximum expression of love.

Naruto Gaiden is a fucking masterpiece! It proves that Sasuke doesn't love Sakura.

Sasuke retsuden is not canon.

Sasuke retsuden is not canon, Jun Esaka herself said it and if you are a fan of Sasuke it is normal that you hate Sakura because Sasuke is unhappy with her.

Sasuke still considers Sakura inferior.

Sasuke didn't push Sakura away because of the curse of hate.

Sasuke rejected Sakura, Ino and Karin, he didn't push them away because he was afraid.

Sasuke is not in love with Karin and did not have sex in part 2 with Karin.

Why Karin's fans say she had sex with Sasuke in part 2.

What does Kakashi know about the genocide and the physical and mental torture that would lead the child victim to a fatal coma, at the hands of a family member?

Naruto is a narcissistic.

Why Naruto is the worst character.

How can anyone read the two chapter panels showing two very different worlds the characters occupy and be surprised by the way it ended? They were not going to reconcile since the world where Sasuke exists is the antithesis of the world where his former team resides.

Lee was never "good” at Taijutsu, let alone being a genius at it. The series' main theme, revolves around bonds. When the manga began, Naruto let loose Kurama (unintentionally) against Haku, breaking all Ice Mirrors that ... no Jutsu could break; and that, happened way back in the Waves Arc. How does that associate "hard-work" with Naruto's character, upon whom many poor souls project their misfortunes to feel vindicated, when two geniuses (Sasuke and Kakashi) in the near-vicinity failed? Naruto powered through this via nothing but brute force; and that isn't a precursor to hard-work. That's the exact opposite. With the beginning of the next Arc, the "if we work hard, we could beat all odds, too" trope lovers got their kicks from Sasuke's humiliation at Lee's hands (or gates?); but then they conveniently forget that Lee himself stated that what Sasuke accomplished was literally impossible for someone like him (he even emphasized on this argument). Gai even went so far as to state that even with the Sharingan's power, Sasuke should never have been able to do what he did (he literally invented his own Taijutsu maneuver from Lee's in a single day; if that's not prodigious, I don't know what is); and Gai, last I checked, is an authority on the subject of Taijutsu, not you—yes, you! Sasuke mastered Kimimaro's CS in under two hours whilst Lee survived simply because Kimimaro was dying and he literally died whilst delivering a death-blow to Gaara and Lee; so thematically, narratively, and metaphorically, Sasuke matched an adversary against whom both Gaara and Lee lost? That and Lee was outshined by Sasuke twice in a row, going so far as to undermine Lee in his own life endeavors that involved years of sweat and tears?

Shikamaru's revenge is meaningless unlike Sasuke's.

People who support Nagato but vilify Sasuke sound a lot more idiotic than they think.

In defense of Fugaku.

How does Sasuke's revolution develop?

Why didn't the narrative validate Sasuke's radical change from Konoha's Will of Fire to the Revolution?

Itachi massacred the clan out of conscience.

The difference between Kushina and Itachi is not that big.

The policies of Tobirama Senju and the Uchiha genocide.

At what point will people stop demanding Sasuke?

Tsunade was at the forefront of the Second Shinobi World War that massacred the people of Nagato, plundered their land's resources, and continued to use the land as a battlefield resulting in mass deaths, poverty, and suffering. A war that Konoha started.

Why do so many people still blame Sasuke for Sasuke's past?

Uchihas do not have mental illnesses.

Sasuke vs Readers without empathy.

Kishimoto canon vs Studio Pierrot fanservice.

The brilliant change of perspective and theme between Hebi and Taka Sasuke; and that there is no writing defect in the moment in which Sasuke stabs Karin to reach Danzō.

Tobirama never accepted the Uchiha as true allies like Hashirama did, never trusting them, something he admitted so openly that his brother had to warn him "not to continue pursuing the Uchiha." And the Uchiha weren't planning to kill innocent people, they were planning to take over the government itself.

Kishimoto is anti sasusaku and anti naruhina.

Kishimoto never wanted to write Boruto.

The real Sasuke fans.

Sasuke winking at Sakura was never happened in the manga, it was a translation error.

[nardo-headcanons]

it's been an age since i've been into naruto, and now that i have plans on making my own version on how naruto shippuden ended, i was wondering, how do you think naruto shippuden should've ended? like are you pro or anti naruhina? pro or anti sasusaku? whats your opinions on how the fourth war was played out? if you already spoke about this i'm sorry lol but im just wondering.

OMG HIIIIIIII @ofrolysdogs you're one of my OGs! How have you been????? Please please tag me or let me know once you create your rework. that sounds so intriguing!

This post is gonna be controversial, beauties.

How do you think Naruto Shippuden should've ended?

Ideally, with Naruto realizing that he doesn't need to become hokage to get the attention and validation from the people he loves and cares about. Or at the very least, with Naruto becoming hokage but abolishing the shinobi system. Maybe even make Danzo hokage along the way, just when Tsunade falls into her coma, and slowly make Naruto question the system more and more. Also, Sasuke's whole "redemption" arc should have been handled differently. First and foremost, he was a victim. He did a few things that were wrong, and I agree that there need to be consequences, but for this redemption arc I'd rather have him travel around and teach people around the world about the customs and culture of the Uchiha.

Are you pro or anti naruhina? pro or anti sasusaku?

I am both Anti NaruHina and Anti SasuSaku, but for two different reasons. I used to be a hardcore SNS shipper, but not so much nowadays. NaruHina had so much potential, they could have explored their class and privilege differences together, learning from each other and stuff. But Neji dying for their ship to sail? That was a hate crime. The reason I'm Anti SasuSaku is because I simply don't really like the thought of shipping Sasuke with anyone. He has enough to go through and putting him in a romantic relationship is not something that would make it more interesting or add stakes to it, although I wouldn't mind seeing him adopt a kid or two, given how family oriented Sasuke is.

Whats your opinions on how the fourth war was played out? I found the use of Edo tensei very interesting, albeit a little cheapened here and there. The Itachi and Sasuke vs Kabuto fight was a little disappointing. Don't get me wrong, I loved seeing he two of them fight together side by side, and Itachi's final parting was very touching - but them fighting Kabuto of all people? Maybe if Kishi fleshed out Kabuto's story a little more, he clearly had no idea what to do with him. Poor bastard.

Madara just 'knowing' the hand signs of edo tensei is actually not so unlikely, but it still irks me how he was able to just "come back" when Edo Tensei was released.

And let's not talk about the power scaling, which went completely through the roof in the end. Oof. Kaguya, as is, ruined the storyline completely. It could have worked, but not in the way it was executed in shippuden.

But alas, I suppose there is only so much Kishi can do within the confines of a genre.

[phantomchick]

The themes of Naruto and how the fact he and Sasuke are reincarnations/part of a cycle expands on those themes

Some guy was going on about how the reincarnation thing in Naruto was an asspull and when people pulled receipts and showed him panels from part one that hinted at it he maintained that it was still terrible because the whole destiny thing ruined the themes of the manga and I'm here like somebody really read the whole manga yet missed out on the themes of peace through absolute power vs peace through understanding that were key to the whole thing.

The Akatsuki's dream of peace is enforced on the rest of the world through the absolute power of the 9 bijuu powered infinite tsukuyomi. Sasuke chases power in order to avenge his family so he can be at peace + not have the threat of Itachi killing any further family he makes all over again hanging over him. Naruto comes to peace with those around him by understanding them whether or not he considers their past actions forgiveable, he chases Sasuke because he understands that Sasuke's motivation of revenge isn't wrong but the way he's going about it is actively self-destructive and hurts both him and those who care about him.

The whole idea of the villages I think are to show that it's a cycle of hatred, between war and peace, between might making right and compassion being the key and Sasuke and Naruto are symbolically representative of it all!

The theme of generational trauma is also all over the world of Naruto! Whether it's the legacy of the Uzumaki sacrificed to become the jinchuriki of the nine tails, a burden his parents pass onto Naruto; Kakashi's trauma stemming from his father's, Hinata and Neji both innocent kids but who are divided by the toxic customs of their family when they should be like siblings to each other, Hashirama and Madara bearing the weight of the brother war the Senju-Uchiha conflict and how hard it is to achieve peace even in a world where neither side actually wants to fight because of all the history and distrust that's built up, the curse of hatred of the Uchiha stemming from Ootsutsuki Indra's madness and willingness to murder his closest friends for the sake of taking power by force, Obito being taken by his own clan patriarch, hurt when he tries to leave and brainwashed and traumatised into buying into the dream of a perfect world - he literally inherits his hatred for the existing one, Gaara and his siblings lives effected by their father's actions but also by the custom of jinchuriki being created in the first place, the children of Ame all orphaned by war, Kaguya the enslaver, Kaguya the dictator, leaving a fragment of her will called Zetsu aka 'tongue' that continues to spread hatred, fear and prejudice and divide the people hundreds of years on. Haku experiencing the results of both the ninja world 'shinobi are tools' belief system and the prejudice of Kirigakure towards those with bloodline limits when he's a child too young to fully understand either with Zabuza the demon of the bloody mist who killed all his classmates to end kiri's killer graduation exams once and for all who can't bring himself to express his genuine love for Haku until he's already dead. I mean I could go on but you get the point.

The reincarnation thing emphasises the themes of Naruto which are generational trauma, the power of brotherhood/friendship and peace through absolute power vs peace through understanding and last but not least endurance in the face of a hopelessly cynical world: aka The will of fire, the will/resolve to keep trying to improve things even a little for the sake of the next generation, to refuse to give up even when it appears hopeless. Like say when you've just gotten your ass kicked by an army of zombies, the remainder of Akatsuki, Obito, Zetsu and Uchiha fucking Madara, you've failed to stop the moon's eye plan and suddenly, things get worse and a literal all powerful Goddess descends on you when you're already exhausted and the rest of the army is comatose.

[sasukesun]

What are your favorite parts of sasuke's character that people misconstrue/forget about?

a lot of people try to downplay naruto’s importance to sasuke, but his struggle between itachi’s influence (hatred) vs naruto’s influence (warmth/easiness) is something much more relevant to his character than people are able to admit, like narratively.

sasuke is obviously a loving person, i think this has been discussed a lot but some people will still insist he isn’t, or that he doesn’t know how to show affection, or that he is shy, and none of this is true. he doesn’t hide when he loves someone, he can run away from it, try to suppress it, but he won’t lie about it. honestly, the only time i can remember sasuke lying is during reunion when he’s actively trying to push naruto away (what he says and how he behaves then is contradictory). otherwise he’s blunt and honest.

sasuke also has a strong sense of justice, he is against killing innocents, people can bring kage summit as much as they want, the point of this arc is exactly to show that even someone like sasuke can throw their morals aside in the face of so much injustice and trauma. that obviously will never make him a bad person. when the dust settles and he is able to think more rationally he decides to find out things on his own by asking the hokages, that also shows how his sense of justice works.

i don’t wholeheartedly agree when his akgaes say he was right because, yes, he was right that the nations were only united because they had a common enemy, that’s 100% on point, but they also mean that he should’ve gone on with his self destructive plan that, let’s be real, would never work. sasuke is more aware of the injustices of the shinobi world than most characters, but he still doesn’t know how to fix it, and that’s fine tbh, it doesn’t make him worse as a character/person. there is also no judgement value of admitting that his actions are both selfish and selfless, saying he’s 100% selfless as a response to people that call him a selfish asshole is not it, acting selfishly is not inherently bad per se, people really need more nuance in life.

and one last thing is that just because sasuke is loving and honest, doesn’t mean he opens up easily, because there’s this belief ingrained in him that feelings make him weak. he is not the pursuer in his relationship with naruto, he is unlikely to make the first move, even if he accepted naruto’s feelings for him in chapter 698, those beliefs shaped him and they don’t go easily. this “sasuke goes after his goals” applies to his family, when it comes to naruto, he tries to suppress how he feels, he runs away, to the point that the only solution he comes up with is to cut naruto off. he asks for naruto’s reassurance because of how he was betrayed in the past by itachi, and he won’t risk losing naruto post 698 by the possibility of being rejected and making things weird between them if he confessed and naruto wasn’t ready to come out of the closet (don’t think that would happen btw, just believe this is how sasuke sees it).

[deadmegumi]

Things Started Going Wrong for nrt very early on (see: that post about the resurgence of japanese nationalism in ~2005 and it's effects on kishimoto's portrayal of war/war crimes/child soldiers/military rule/revolution vs "terrorism"/etc) but the cracks really start to show in the pain attack... pain has many legitimate points about the flaws of the shinobi system and I think both naruto's recognition of these flaws and his inability to refute them with the solutions pain asks him for (which makes perfect sense like he's a 16 year old with no idea of how statecraft works... Being hokage is still just very much a symbol of his prowess and worth in his mind he's not viewing it as a legitimate political position because he's a teenager who's main mentor was fucking jiraiya) are poignant depictions of how difficult it is to really make change in this system and how many actors who have good reasons to want change (kakashi, itachi, zabuza, etc) are unable/unwilling to enact it and instead uphold the status quo because that's all they've ever known, which sets up naruto as a counterpoint to these characters as someone who WILL uhhh break the wheel (pain literally destroys all of konoha in the attack and naruto going nine tails mode contributes, it sets up the literal and figurative reconstruction of the village and its ideals really well)

Except. Then we get the minato speech about how actually all you have to do is believe in yourself and you can save the day. Which works to motivate Naruto and cause him to entirely reject any internalization of pain's ideals and go back to this very generalized nebulous ideology that jiraiya spoke of, a dream of a peaceful happy world where everyone gets along through the power of Talking It Out. Like we joke about talk no jutsu but what's the point of it when you're just trying to convince someone with a sound grievance to stand down? It's all well and good on someone like gaara, who was ostracized and isolated his whole life but was able to form real connections and begin healing by opening himself up on an interpersonal level following naruto's example, but when it's a systemic issue, any individual person's willingness to roll over and work within an organization like the hidden villages is pointless, it's not going to contribute to any change. I find the statement (paraphrasing) "methods don't matter, only your dedication to peace" especially sinister, like actually methods DO matter and sometimes that method is violence. Wishful thinking and good intentions are pointless in a situation like this! What's the point of all this if not to begin fixing things in a material way (boruto theme starts playing menacingly)? Naruto expresses desires to reform shinobi society (he wants to change the hyuga clan, he supports/understands sasuke's vengeance more than anyone else) but at a certain point he accepts that the hokage is a sedentary position incapable of anything but upholding the status quo and you can see the beginning of that here (BORUTO THEME PLAYS EVEN MORE MENACINGLY). semi-unrelated but I wish there were actual consequences for the pain attack like let kakashi or shizune or hinata die fr. Come on man.

[theheirofthesharingan]

[[ love your post about itachi vs obito, but i wanna add! a lot of itachi haters blame itachi for sasuke learning the truth and sasuke "forgiving him", when it was Obito who spilled the beans and made itachi look sympathetic. itachi never wanted sasuke to forgive him, but itachi antis constantly overlook that as if itachi himself begged at sasuke's feet lmao. ]]

Oh, yes. That's another brand of stupidity that exists in the fandom. They take Obito's words verbatim when he says the clan was oppressed, but keep looking for the excuses when he also says Itachi was a victim. After Obito, Danzo confirms it.

And then Hiruzen does the same.

Adding further:

But - but... This isn't canon because the "nuances" to why Danzo and Hiruzen are saying nice things about Itachi must be considered. :) :) And those nuances always lead to the conclusion that Itachi was pure evil who woke up and chose violence, even if they can't produce a single penal as evidence other than their hurt feelings.

These people are angry as if Itachi himself wanted Sasuke to forgive him when that's not true. Even when Edo Itachi met Sasuke in the woods, he tries to evade him. His last effort to keep Sasuke from fighting for him, which he'd learned from Naruto, was Sasuke going to do. He didn't ever want Sasuke to fight for him, honour him and, most importantly, lose his friends for him. He believed - and maybe even hoped - Sasuke would never learn his truth and suffer as a result, and his negative opinion on Itachi would never falter. And then he outright stated - You don't ever have to forgive me.

What is so convoluted about it that people can't understand this?

If this isn't enough, some people claim that Edo Itachi was trying to "manipulate" Sasuke into loving him because he treated Sasuke with kindness. The other half of this tribe rants that Itachi was "cruel" for being aloof and distant and should have shown more affection.

But.. I'm sorry, but what do you want?

Where is consistency? Where is consistency in your hatred?

These people refuse to see Itachi as a human being. They forget that the Shinobi world, on the whole, is like a living, breathing monster that feeds on young children and even adults' grief. Being dead didn't mean Itachi was in therapy. He lived and died with so much pain and never, ever experienced happiness. We don't love him because "he never did anything wrong", but because he did everything wrong and owned up to all of it, even if all of it wasn't entirely his fault when these two bastards existed.

If people can see Sasuke, Kakashi, Naruto living hellish life as budding Shinobi and then pretend Itachi was just born with this evil streak who did horrible things because he was bored, I'm not going to take them seriously.

[misrepresentedmorallygrey]

PROPAGANDA

Itachi Uchiha

Itachi was evil!!!!!! Itachi did nothing wrong!!!!!! Itachi is the GOAT!!! Itachi loved Sasuke!!!!!!!! NO! WRONG! SHUT UP!!!!!! Itachi was a fucked up little man formed by his clan and the Shinobi nations to value power and loyalty above all. Because of the way the sharingan is activated trauma is inextricably linked to power which is why he keeps mind blasting him. He wants Sasuke to be powerful because he loves him, and to Itachi being powerful is the only way to survive the Shinobi world. That's why he does all those fucked up things to him. It doesn't mean he was right

Homura Akemi

She ends the world (over and over) for her love interest yet people say she does no wrong. She's take advantage of by a contractor and desperate yet people say she is pure villainy

There's been a decade long debate over this. She either did everything wrong or did nothing wrong. Probably the most controversial part of the franchise.

She's a 14 year old catholic lesbian, you'd be a little unhinged too. And sure, she did tear her beloved metaphysically in half after Madoka had ascended to godhood, but that was because she thought that that was what Madoka would have wanted. And she only imprisoned the human half because she didn't want Madoka to sacrifice herself again.But she had also stopped caring about anyone else, except instrumentally. She didn't ask the whole Madoka goddess if she endorsed her choice of becoming the embodiment of hope, and only listened to the fragment that said "uwu leaving my friends and family behind sounds scary" because she wanted Madoka back.Some parts of fandom tend to demonize her, some say her pivot to "villainy" in the movie came out of left field even though it's perfectly coherent with her previous characterization.

She kind of became the devil, BUT SHE DID IT FOR LOVE. So yeah it's a bit complicated but some people put her like this mega toxic devil whose forcing Madoka in a relationship OR that she would destroy all her friends just to see Madoka happy when she actually cares about them too, she's just willing to go to some extremes to meet her goals.

[genderhanji]

i just had an epiphany.

orochimaru changes after being heavily exposed to their trauma just like tsunade. like, i'm not saying it's ok, i just connected the dots, plot-wise.

both of them develop their phobias (tsunade has hemophobia- fear of blood, orochimaru we could argue has thanatophobia - fear of death) during the war. tsunade saw her younger brother nawaki being nothing more than a mass of gruesome blood probably, and her lover dan dies by blood loss under her own bloody hands. orochimaru (at least in the anime) had their parents getting killed on duty, saw nawaki dying in front of their eyes, and then saw tsunade being completely shattered by loss just after dan dies under her.

during the battle between naruto and kabuto, naruto is heavily injured and there's blood everywhere of course and tsunade is paralized. just- completely paralized. she starts to act when she founds something to fight for again, a place in their twisted shinobi world. she fights back because she deeply wants to protect naruto and because (her words) she's the fifth hokage and they want to protect konoha.

orochimaru, on the other hand, is killed by sasuke and there's so much fear when they get absorbed by him - screaming about how they cannot die, because they are immortal, they just can't. after that, during sasuke vs itachi, we see orochimaru getting sealed by itachi's susanoo's totsuka blade. of course they don't die, but ... they also do, you know? and what happens after they come back? they watch sasuke, then they watch kabuto, and change. they no longer feel like being the wind themself or set them the wind, but they want to see what sasuke does from now on because his behavior is something that orochimaru didn't expect and they're curious.

this post isn't to justify any character mentioned, their actions or anything - i just find interesting how much tsunade and orochimaru are somehow similar but they like... are so different from one another.

[depressedhatakekakashi]

May I ask for extreme details on the age swap au? I'm not sure how it works.

Is it just effecting the Konoha 12, their teachers and maybe the sand siblings and a few notable shibobi? So those who were 12-13 are now 26 and the 26-27 year olds are now the students? Did the Uchiha massacre still happen if so, how? The issues that lead up to it were complicated, but I don't think they would have happened if Naruto/his father was alive. Is Minato still alive as the 4th Hokage? Did he die with Kushina again and was Naruto an orphan? Who released the nine tails if Madara was too old and Obito is now itty bitty.

How did Naruto, Sakura, and Sasuke react to growing up in a time of war instead of a time of peace, especially in one of the most bloodiest wars in the ninja world. Is Itachi alive? Is he in his 30's and still flicking Sasuke in the face and embarrassing him in punlic,, or did he succumb to his chakra disease early in life?

Sakumo must have been alive and was a peer to Naruto, at most he would be a bit older. Were they friends? Did Naruto try to talk-no-jutsu him out of Suicide? The village's view on teammates vs. Missions seems to have pivoted after the 3rd great shinobi war where, at least in Konoha, friendships and teammates meant more than the mission. Maybe not for everyone, but probably due to the overwhelming loses everyone's POV shifted and they seem to care for each other a lot more. Would he feel the same pressure to commit suicide and leave his baby boy if less people turned their back on him?

Were Dai and Lee friends?! Rivals?! BROTHERS?! On the same team at one point?! Did Lee learn the gates from Dai?! Or was Dai just Lee's father in this and Gai was Lee's secret half brother/ a random village kid with no relation to Dai?

If Madara was still alive that means the reincarnation of indra and asura could not be Naruto and Sasuke. Who are they now? Is it Obito and Kakashi? Are they destined to stop the cycle of hatred and bring peace to the ninja world?!

I'm sorry I have so many questions, but the characters of Naruto are deeply entwined with their world and the time in which they grew up. Their environment ends up shaping who they become. So unlike a lot of stories, I think just switching the character rolls and places it a little harder in a age swap like this where almost every character has a pivotal roll in the time they grew up.

I hope this was not a rude ask.

It’s not really hard at all to change things.

Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura grew up in war and are a little rougher around the edges because of it but otherwise the exact same personalities. Naruto is a sunshine personality, Sakura has anger issues but is a top notch medical ninja, and it’s Sasuke who takes Obito’s place.

Kakashi and Obito are the reincarnations, but instead of it just being them who can fix everything in the end Rin actually plays a role in fighting and helping them beat Kaguya instead of just being sent in the end to stop her with a punch.

Madara still dies and the reincarnation cycle starts anew with Kakashi and Obito.

Sakumo and Dai are more Sensei age, just as Minato is Sensei age for Kakashi, Naruto and Rin.

Minato and Kushina are well known shinobi who were skilled and ruthless, but Minato never becomes Hokage here. It’s Sakumo who takes the title of the fourth and through a very skilled Naruto who has grown a lot (and is a few years older) and had a chance to learn uzumaki techniques from his mother is able to seal the Kyubi into Kakashi. (kakashi is the ninetails here)

Dai would have been Lee’s Sensei and someone who picked Lee up as a student before he left the academy and helped him train. He’s not actually Lee’s official Sensei, but he is the one who takes him under his wing and teaches him his style, and then has Gai later when Lee is around 14. So lee is not blood related but a big part of Gai’s life.

Hiruzen is still the third (honestly i don’t see Tsunade, Sakumo or Minato going through with the massacure at all so it has to stay him) with Tsunade, Jiraiya and Orochimaru still being the Sannin (though i do have fic with Danzo being the one Kakashi leaves the village to train under, but that is not for this)

Sakumo was Sasuke, Naruto and Sakura’s Sensei and although Sasuke ‘died’ young Sakumo kept a good connection with Naruto and Sakura and refused to allow Hiruzen to set asude some of their stringest shinobi during the Kyubi attack.

They were good enough to fight in a war when they were 10, they are good enough to help protect the village rather than being force to stand around and watch people die knowing they can’t do shit.

Naruto used the Reaper death seal, and i know ‘he was supposed to die’ but like, f*** that i think that Sakumo shoved him out of the way and the death god actually accepted that for some unexplainable reason and took Sakumo instead (who was dying anyways as he was the previous jinchurriki)

[madara-fate]

I just got back into Naruto and I was wondering. What are your (and everyone thoughts) of the ending/war arc? I feel it was good but tbh I didn't like the introduction of "aliens" or "reincarnations" or that it was only one who wrote the entire story of shinobi. It just felt like this new villain that we just meet, no hints of mythical being who was controlling the cycle of hatred, and it just made it seem like the characters had their destiny written. Naruto and Sasuke, Madara and Tobirama. Making Neji character arc a bit weaken since that was his stance or something he had to learn, that his life is not pre-written or destined. It took away the free will. Made Naruto and Sasuke be God like (literally). And idk I feel I just wanted Sasuke vs Naruto fight not only on what is the right answer of being a shinobi (since the beginning Naruto wanted to change it. That why his promise to Nagato/Pain, Neji, Jinchurikis ext) and Sasuke wanted more control-like charge at least in the beginning when he found out the truth, on how corrupt it is. So maybe a fight about that (almost like Rocky/Creed fight drama plot. What are they fighting for, more than just a outdo eachother power but fight each other views and resolutions.) Or idk a fight more personal and deep than what we got... Because in the end Naruto didn't make the change, at least from what I saw in Boruto, he called himself his childself naive. Still sending kids into the world to fight the same thing that shook him when we saw his first real mission with Team 7 in the beginning of the story and manga. Or that this new being almost made what Orochimaru, Pain, Itachi fight be for nothing due to the pre-written curse of hatred the black Zetsu created or more like Kaguya. It just I saw it like the big evil is Orochimaru/Kabuto, nope, it is Tobi who is Obito (who created the war due to his love for Rin and hatred of Kakashi... So needed something more than that for a War), to nope is Madara, nvm is Black Zetsu, oh no is Kaguya. Now let's Naruto deal with Alien like characters in the end. Oh and about the shipping... even though I am happy with my favs being canon I feel like in the end it got too focused on shipping with everyone (even characters I was like okay why they are together cough cough Choji this is new and didn't saw it coming literally... No hints before like Shikatema). Or strengthen women characters, what are they goals more than chasing after their love interested and being string to catch up to them. Ik it would be too much to cover but maybe Hinata arc would be the Hyuga clan and Neji arc, the drive within that more person without involvement of love alone. What are their philosophy on the x topic?

Ik is long but wanted your thoughts and everyone thoughts. How will you fix it? What would you change. What to keep? Just open conversation with you and everyone. 😊 I am really curious how everyone thinks

I just got back into Naruto and I was wondering. What are your (and everyone thoughts) of the ending/war arc?

The war arc had its moments, but Kaguya should not have been the final boss. Kishi spent hundreds of chapters hyping up Madara to be the final boss, so that's who people wanted to see. But when Kaguya came out of nowhere and usurped his position, there was no hype, there was no excitement. There was only confusion, which soon turned into criticism. Madara was so entertaining, so charismatic, readers knew about him and his history. Conversely, no one had a clue who the fuck Kaguya was or why they should care, and that severely lessened the quality of the final confrontation with her, because there was no reader investment in her as a character.

It just felt like this new villain that we just meet, no hints of mythical being who was controlling the cycle of hatred

Yep, that's essentially what I said regarding how Kaguya just came out of nowhere with no hype or build up, and yet Kishi expected readers to care about who she was. People cared about Madara - he had endeared himself to the readers, Kaguya did not.

It just made it seem like the characters had their destiny written... It took away the free will.

This had been a thing since the Pain arc introduced the whole "Child of Prophecy" angle, so I can't really make this a unique criticism of the War arc when similar themes had been done previously.

And idk I feel I just wanted Sasuke vs Naruto fight not only on what is the right answer of being a shinobi... Or idk a fight more personal and deep than what we got

I don't really have an issue with the themes and incentives behind their final fight, because it is pretty much consistent with what had been points of contention before. As I'm sure you've noticed by now, I like consistency and continuity in storytelling.

Because in the end Naruto didn't make the change, at least from what I saw in Boruto, he called himself his childself naive. Still sending kids into the world to fight the same thing that shook him when we saw his first real mission with Team 7 in the beginning of the story and manga.

Naruto did make changes. I don't want to get into detail here, but I discussed just how unfair it is to criticise Naruto for apparently not having done anything as Hokage during this post and this post, and regarding the whole "sending kids into the world to fight"/child soldiers debacle, I specifically address that and go into a lot of detail proving that point (during the New Generation while Naruto is the Hokage) to be false in this post.

It just I saw it like the big evil is Orochimaru/Kabuto, nope, it is Tobi who is Obito (who created the war due to his love for Rin and hatred of Kakashi... So needed something more than that for a War)

That's not actually the case.

Obito didn't descend into darkness and start the War because of Rin. During his battle with Kakashi (who had a similar assumption), Obito clarifies that he did not start the war just because of what happened between himself, Rin and Kakashi all those years ago:

He explained that his resentment was directed towards the shinobi world itself, for incorporating a system which allowed the situation which took Rin’s life to happen in the first place. That is ultimately what caused Obito to adopt Madara’s “Tsuki no Me” plan, because he wanted to change what he deemed to be the “counterfeit” world, to one which was free from such circumstances.

Oh and about the shipping... even though I am happy with my favs being canon I feel like in the end it got too focused on shipping with everyone (even characters I was like okay why they are together cough cough Choji this is new and didn't saw it coming literally... No hints before like Shikatema).

I don't think the manga focused too much on shipping at all, but I think the fans definitely focused too much on the shipping, and gave the ships far more importance than they actually had.

Or strengthen women characters, what are they goals more than chasing after their love interested and being string to catch up to them.

With this criticism, I'll just stick to the main two female characters who the accusation is usually directed towards.

Sakura's goal wasn't to chase after Sasuke, it was to save him from the darkness.

Hinata's goal wasn't to chase after Naruto, it was to be more like him because she admired him.

Ik is long but wanted your thoughts and everyone thoughts. How will you fix it? What would you change. What to keep? Just open conversation with you and everyone. 😊 I am really curious how everyone thinks

With regards to what I would change or improve from the manga, I go into detail on that topic during this post if you're interested.

[narutocharacterpolls]

ROUND FOUR

UZUMAKI NARUTO vs MAITO GAI

Reasons for submission under the cut

Naruto

he runs on pure spite

he's just trying his best all the time

ray of sunshine

we wouldn’t have the story without him

he’s got his faults but he’s still one of [submitters] favourites

his true talent is in his irony: he wears bright orange, is loud, and likes direct confrontation; all things that should make him an awful ninja but he works hard and turns out to be a talented one anyway

he's determined; works real hard to achieve his dreams

he's entertaining and fiercely loyal to those he cares about although he does get a bit obsessive with Sasuke

entertaining to watch

good boy with good intentions even if he can be dumb af sometimes he's always trying to find the better option even for his enemies <3

sun coded boy who can also beat someones ass

Gai

was instrumental in the success of the story - he may not have won against Madara, but he put fear in him and had it not been for hacks, he would have decimated him where no one else could

believes whole-heartedly in his student to the point of dedicating his life to making him a splendid ninja

came from nothing, worked his way up from nothing, and is now considered to be one of the greatest shinobi to have come out of the Hidden Leaf. People know and fear him

made Itachi bail. That man was ready to fight everyone else, but packed it up when Gai came on the scene

kicked Jiraiya in the face and never properly apologized

great salesperson - always has a spare jumpsuit to give to passers-by and hook them on his favorite brand. True influencer and fashion icon

had a bowl cut before it was cool

was a great friend to Kakashi, and was there for him during the highs and lows of his horrifically stressful life. Arguably saved Kakashi's life with his constant support, and the story could not have happened without him. Is considered by Kakashi - one of the most powerful and infamous shinobi in the world - to be his equal and his best friend

loves kids. Supports his own students like he was their father, and equally takes pride in Naruto and protected Sasuke after Sasuke's first run in with Itachi

in the anime, he is shown to be hard on the outside but clearly permissive in that he would sneak Chouji food in the middle of a mission and try to push Naruto into figuring out who Minato was

confident in himself and confident in others - he is everyone's biggest cheerleader and he isn't just talk; he'll work hard with you. When he says he'll do something, nothing will stop him and he will follow his promises even when no one is watching.

hot. Man has pretty privilege

amazing, supportive teacher and friend

he is always trying to be positive in such a dark world and cheer up those around him

he's so good to Lee, Tenten, and Neji, you can just tell how much he cares about those kids

his speech to Lee was super moving. He knew Lee was scared and made sure to be there for him

he was ready and willing to die to defeat Madara in order to save the others

an actual decent upstanding father figure

unbridled whimsy

excellent tits

[phlebaswrites]

WIP Tag Game

Thanks @kalira for the tag!

Rules

In a new post of your own, reveal the titles of the documents in your WIP folder and tag as many people as there are documents. Let others ask questions about the ones that interest them and post snippets or explain the contents as you see fit!

As will surprise no one whose talked to me for more than a minute, the list of my WIPs is insanely long, so I'm putting it under a cut!

Also, I will not be tagging as many people as I have WIPs - that's just Too Many People - but no-pressure tags for @dark-elf-writes, @maphel-n-doodles, @fiyasgideon, @tarutaruga, @devotedanarchy, @writhingbeneathyou, @artbythedarkside, @momo-ceros, @shinigami-mine, @woofgang69, @heyitswrenn, @longliveustherecklessandthebrave, @hellotheremaryrose, @silverutahraptor, @good-grievance

And please do ask about anything that sparks interest, though - I always love to talk about my WIPs!

I organise my WIPs by my series and then all other stories by pairing, so that's how they're listed here.

Courting Culture Confusion

Konohans Crash - the shinobi space race

Akatsuki Adventures - the last story in the series (I hope)

Other Naruto Stories

Madara/Tobirama

Untitled Single mother Tobirama - based on an idea by Madlen_Fade and borrowed with permission, four different versions plotted, running the gamut from angst to crack romantic comedy, and every one with a different pairing!!!

Tobirama/Izuna

Untitled Seelie Winter vs Summer Court story - Izuna is the King of Summer in love with the General of the Winter Court - Tobirama

Untitled djinn story - Izuna is a djinn, Tobirama is the king’s son who owns the bottle

Untitled Izuna is a pipe fox story - Tobirama is his sorcerer

Death is Not the End - Tobirama and Izuna novel, first part on AO3, is complete until I add everything else…

Untitled Tobirama is the Prettiest Princess - Tobirama/Izuna Modern AU with fashion porn and shy transwoman Kurohime

Untitled Tobirama/Izuna enemies to lovers amnesiac speedrun - amnesiac!Tobirama

Untitled Tobirama/Izuna enemies to lovers amnesiac speedrun - amnesiac!Izuna

Untitled Pacific Rim fusion - Pilot!Izuna/Engineer!Tobirama

Hold Your Children Precious - In a world where the Senju and Uchiha don't hunt children, the Uchiha win. Tobirama learns what it means to be married for peace.

A Confusion of Weasels - Izuna’s summons are weasels. Omegaverse.

A World Without You - fusion with the Matrix

Untitled Swan Lake AU, based on Odile and Odette

Untitled Mahō Shōjo Founders AU - complete and utter CRACK

Hashirama/Madara

Untitled Madara is a Disney princess - 500 Kingdoms fusion

Untitled Hashirama is a Disney Princess - Based on Enchanted

Untitled Romeo and Juliet quote parody - utter crack

Untitled Romeo and Juliet cannon era crack style romantic comedy

Untitled Romeo and Juliet modern AU - Hashirama and Madara are actors playing Romeo and Juliet

Rite of Passage - In which the only way to become a ‘true Senju’ is to eat Uchiha. Not dark, crack comedy

Untitled Edo Tensi Fourth War - Hashirama accepts Madara’s invitation to dance

Untitled extremely NSFW comedy in which Hashirama has an enormous dick and that's why he wears hakama whenever he's not in battle

Untitled Magic Coffee Shop AU

Founders Polycules

Untitled Girl Genius fusion - Necromancer Tobirama, Mechanicsburg sparks Madara and Izuna (they’re Hetrodyne equivalents)

Untitled sequel to Snow White - Hashirama/Madara, Izuna/Tobirama, Hashirama/Madara/Izuna/Tobirama

Suffered from the Night - Gothic Horror in which the Uchiha are vampires and the Senju are monster hunters

Untitled Madara/Tobirama/Izuna not really unrequited love - three versions, all of which are based on this amazing comic by @kurakura0-0

Kisame/?

Untitled A/B/O Kisame & Samehada hit on an Omega - Long, Kisame/Mei romance

Untitled Itachi fucks his way through the Akatsuki modern AU - Kisame/Itachi romance, SUPER LONG, the Akatsuki are a D&D group, Naruto and Sasuke are their dungeon masters, it’s BANANAS

Untitled Kisame/Itachi story - Itachi is a geisha about to have his mizuage. Kisame is the shinobi who bought him.

Budgie Smugglers - Itachi/Kisame porn in the onsen

Bridge of Birds - a retelling of Orihime and Hikoboshi

Laugh and Live - a retelling of The Tsarevna who Would not Laugh

Untitled Samehada/Kisame/Itachi story about scenting

Untitled Comfort Sex Kisame - or Kisame fucks his way through the Akatsuki

Other Pairings

Things that Zetsu Gave (and Gained) - Zetsu redemption angst fest

Untitled Zabuza/Kisame/Mei home repair modern AU

Untitled Team Ro polycule - All of Team Ro is in love with Iruka, but they don’t know about each other. Their only guide on how to woo him is Icha Icha. Oh no.

Untitled Arabian Night AU - Sakura/Hinata, Naruto/Sasuke. Hinata is the queen in an arranged married to Naruto, but he doesn't love her. Her only solace is her handmaiden, Sakura.

Untitled Deidara/Sasori - Everyone thinks Deidara uses ‘danna’ sarcastically, and that’s just the way he likes it. Two versions, one happy and one sad

Untitled 1920s Mob Uchiha - Series based on the art of @good-grievance​

Untitled Senju Breathplay - Two versions - Hashirama/Tobirama and Tobirama/Tōka

Untitled Kisame/Itachi/Haku/Zabuza College AU

War of the Dōjutsu (Now Fight!) - Hashirama/Hikaku

Untitled Tobirama/Hikaku story - they bond over paperwork

Untitled series - four unrelated stories, all of them based on the music video Dude (Looks Like A Lady) by Aerosmith. Each one featuring a different founder.

Gen

Untitled Izuna is the heir - Gen, long and utterly violent mix of angst and crack

Untitled Modern High School AU - Gen, probably about 20K, pretty wholesome story about growing up, now with a Hashirama/Madara cat cafe sequel, a Mito/Tōka/Naori Much Ado About Nothing sequel, and a Tobirama/Izuna sequel

The Feeling of Falling - Kakashi is a self-insert into Naruto, Kakashi-centric Naruto/Inception crossover

Untitled Tajima and Mountains - Tajima named his kids after mountains. This is why.

Minecraft Madness - Obito and Zabuza are on the same Minecraft Server. It doesn’t go well.

Untitled Akatsuki run a restaurant Modern AU

Untitled cannon era story in which the Hatake have nine lives - an unholy mix of angst and crack

The Past Is a Foreign Country (they do things differently there) - metatextual commentary on cannon, similar to In All the World

A Clowder of Cats - A series in which the Uchiha are all cats

Ladybug, Ladybug, Fly Away Home - a series of stories about Fū being brought up by the Akatsuki

Les Misérables

Rapunzel Enrolas

27 Dresses AU

Other

All the Tropes in Asian Drama story

And… I think that’s everything.

It’s more than I thought, but less than I was dreading.

That’s good.

I think.