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withthewindinherfootsteps · 5 months ago

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???

Both WWX and LWJ are highly ideal characters, so there wouldn’t be too much dispute on their moral standing. They’re perfect as the protagonists. - MXTX's end notes (chapter 113.5), EXR translation

I'm not one to say word of the author is word of god – I definitely lean more towards Death of the Author in that regard. But an important part of that is that you look at what happens in the novel – and, from WWX's actions in the novel, it's pretty clear that this is supposed to be the case. Even if you don't agree with that statement, there's no doubt that acting on his morals is something extremely important to him, and those morals lean heavily towards doing the "right thing" in his perception. That is not "neutral".

Examples of this: WWX was not killed for being the only person to do the right thing and defend the Wen remnants for people to say he's chaotic neutral. He didn't risk his life alongside LWJ to protect both innocents and people who participated in the first Siege, during the second. He didn't go to save Su She from the Waterborne Abyss (at no personal gain), defend Mianmian (at no personal gain), join LWJ in going wherever the chaos is post-canon when they night hunt (despite preferring more difficult, exiting ones – though of course, spending time with LWJ plays a very large role in here too!), etc and do so many other things in the novel, for people to say he's chaotic neutral. He doesn't say this for no reason:

"But, let the self judge the right and the wrong, let others decide to praise or to blame, let gains and losses remain uncommented on." - Chapter 75, EXR

He says it because it's an important part of his philosophy (it fits with his actions, and, from a writing standpoint, would you include that with no indication of a lie otherwise?)! Because judging the right thing, and doing the right thing, is important to him! That's not chaotic neutral!

"He does whatever he wants pretty consistently" well... yes? That is how decisions work? Morality isn't determined by whether you act independently or adhere to other rules – that's where chaotic and lawful come in, but not evil or good. If you do what you want to do, and what you want to do is help people, that's not neutral! It's good!

There's more to the tags, but I won't go into that right now since it's a different point. I would like to say that are multiple posts talking about how WWX doesn't just act disrespectfully/arrogantly for no reason (he knew he'd have to "keep his status in mind" if he wanted to run wild, he was hardly the only person being rowdy and breaking rules in Gusu yet nobody says the same about people like NHS or JC who did that too, post-SSC he was playing up these traits so nobody would look deeper into his reasons for things, ie not having his GC, etc. He enjoys running wild, yes, but it doesn't mean he does it mindlessly!), such as the one I just reblogged, because that's a point that needs adressing here as well. Please don't try to search up these tags and harrass anybody, as it only leads to harm – I just really, really disagree with this take. The WWX of MDZS is neither stupid nor chaotic neutral...

#is this how shen yuan felt every time he got into discourse about binghe...#wild idea maybe wwx CARES ABOUT DOING THE RIGHT THING wouldn't that be strange #and not like #one of the most integral parts of his character #that is *not* 'chaotic neutral' people.......#please.....#mdzs #sort of mdzs meta #there's more analysis in the tags #mo dao zu shi #魔道祖师 #gdc #wei wuxian #sort of my meta #sigh...

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shizunitis · 5 months ago

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Luo Binghe & Tianlang-Jun: Origins. And a Bit of Projection.

Disclaimer: This is basically just a collection of quotes from The Scum Villain's Self-Saving System, Volume 3, accompanied by (adjective) thoughts, and then even more relevant quotes listed at the end. If I could, I’d paste the entirety of Chapter 18.

“As expected, I can’t bring myself to hate humans.” — Vol. 3, Chapter 21: Always Together

I will always be conflicted on the topic of Tianlang-jun, and it annoys me. There is so much I could say about him, and so little I can successfully articulate. He is, to me, more confounding, complex and tragic than Shen Jiu.

He’s pitiful and awe-inspiring, wicked and affable, cunning and wide-eyed in his curiousity. He is a compelling, heartbreaking character. He alternates between emotionless wisdom and mournful apathy. I admire how his knees don’t buckle under the weight of his grief, but how he crumbles at the barest hint of hope. How rage claws at him and, still, he can’t figure out how to make it stick.

I empathise with him. I understand him.

But then, in the distance, Luo Binghe's indifferent voice disturbs the silence, causing me to drop my drink onto the floor and this post onto your screen:

“He’s not my father.”

It’s an interesting exercise, exploring their relationship in reconciliation fics. To see them interact (semi-)honestly, watch them take turns filling up the chasm between them. It’s wonderful. Every fic I’ve read centred around them was a delightful read that I still think about.

However. I cannot see Tianlang-Jun, as I understand him, as Luo Binghe’s father. And not just because of the 3rd Novel’s events.

But because Binghe had hoped for something; he did have that wide-eyed wonder. He did hold one last window open, for the sake of an improbability he couldn’t quite, just yet, dismiss.

It’s what (most) orphaned and/or adopted childred do.

Though Luo Binghe had never said a word about it before, Shen Qingqiu knew that he harbored some fantasies about his birth parents. […] In fact, he’d always secretly fantasized about whether his parents might still be alive, and how well they’d treat him, and how they’d never let him suffer the mildest slight. — Vol. 3, Chapter 17: Tianlang

It is the most human thing; to want to be helped, accepted, invited by those given to you. A family is given to you. Whether you believe it an act of the divine, of nature, of coincidence, it isn’t something you fight for. It’s the first and, arguably, only thing you don’t have to fight for in life.

Depending on a multitude of factors, that can be a blessing or a curse; but where there is room for interpretation, questions left unanswered, most childred—Binghe included—will turn to their imagination, and try to make sense of it. Usually, to comfort themselves, to reassure themselves that surely, if their family could, they would have.

And, yeah. Most likely, if the Palace Master had gotten punted into the Sun like he fucking deserved, they would have. But does it matter?

In the face of a bleak reality, what comfort is a could-have-been?

He liked to call Luo Binghe “that son of mine,” but he didn’t seem to possess any concept of fatherly affection. […] Luo Binghe was in fact…someone who was unloved by even his own parents. — Vol. 3, Chapter 15: Holy Mausoleum

What use are good intentions to an abandoned child? What consolation is it, to say, They gave birth to you, when that child has seen no evidence of their care? Does it dry their tears, that their mother can’t be here, but she surely would have wished to be? That their father would protect them, if only he knew of them?

(And don’t make me tell you about the visceral horror I felt reading the Origins chapter. I’ve yet to make my peace with it. MXTX, Airplane, whoever: you’ve ruined me.)

The washerwoman was and continues to be, to Binghe, his only mother. And I would argue, that’s healthy. Even independent of his other traumas (Abyss, Shizun’s betrayal, Xin Mo’s influence, living on the streets, etc, holy shit Binghe) Luo Binghe will not accept anyone else as his mother.

“Who is this Su Xiyan?” Luo Binghe asked coldly. “My mother was a mere washerwoman.” — Vol. 3, Chapter 18: Origins.

It may seem callous. It probably even is! But it is a healthy line he’d drawn by his own initiative. It’s what helps him, what he feels he needs to do in order to do right by his mother, and his own heart.

And! Tianlang-Jun doesn’t seem to give much of a shit, either!

Won’t, probably, even in the future, once the dust will have settled. He is exhausted, weary with carrying the corpse of his love, the loss of his nephew. Whatever goodwill he shows, it’s a perfunctory sort, because he can’t afford more.

So. Uhh.

Tianlang-Jun is not a character I can love, nor one I can hate. Usually, I can’t help but be inclined to love complex characters. Like them, too—though that’s more of an action-based thing rather than just said character’s personality.

But with Tianlang-Jun, I’m stuck whichever way I turn. If I want to love/like him, I’m drawn back by Binghe’s pain and disappointment. If I try to hate/dislike him, I’m drawn back by his own history and grief.

In conclusion:

I don't know! I'm not really trying to, like, prove anything. I still love the aforementioned TLJ & LBH fics, I still love their dynamic. I started walking and ended up exactly in the same space. This, perhaps, could be considered a Heavenly Demon Family Mobius Strip!

I'm not really trying to say anything. It just… makes me feel conflicted, and angry, and whenever I allow myself to think about it a bit more, sad.

But.

However!

Alas.

Nonetheless, even.

As a reader and—on my better days—a writer, all I can say is:

As promised/threatened: some selected passages, for your reading pleasure:

So, it looked like neither the father nor the cousin had any intention of acknowledging Luo Binghe. — Chapter 15: Holy Mausoleum

He liked to call Luo Binghe “that son of mine,” but he didn’t seem to possess any concept of fatherly affection. — Chapter 15: Holy Mausoleum

Tianlang-Jun lifted his hand, took a look at Luo Binghe’s snow-pale face, and commented indifferently, “He looks like his mother.” “His eyes look like yours,” came a chill voice from the side. — Chapter 15: Holy Mausoleum

The faint hopes and dreams Luo Binghe had held in his heart for many years had been mercilessly pulverized into so much dust. […] [Tianlang-Jun] refused to speak a single word of their relationship and had been utterly ruthless back in the Holy Mausoleum. […] To his parents, Luo Binghe was an unwanted child. — Chapter 18: Origins

“If he was my father, why didn’t he bring it up earlier? Why not tell me?” The most Tianlang-Jun had said was that single line he offered while beating up Luo Binghe, devoid of either praise or criticism: “He looks like his mother.” He looks like his mother. What of it? But that was all. There was nothing more. — Chapter 18: Origins

Luo Binghe was indifferent. “He’s not my father.” […] Luo Binghe shook his head. It was unclear what he was stubbornly clinging to, but he repeated, “He’s not my father.” — Chapter 18: Origins

Luo Binghe raised his smiling face, his eyes shining brightly. “Mother was the kindest person in all the world to me.” — Chapter 19: Shen Jiu

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nyerus · 7 months ago

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Overview of TGCF Versions

Due to recent(ish) events, I thought it would be good to make another post cataloguing all the different "versions" of TGCF, for newcomers and old fans alike! I'll also be going over some FAQs that I've seen or been asked so this post can serve as a decent info thread.

For simplicity's sake, first think of there being two "main" version of TGCF:

The Original -- what all the translations are based on, as well as the manhua and donghua.

The Revised -- what was released in print last year in China (only), and what was recently updated on JJWXC. The audio drama is adapting this

The original webnovel was itself not "censored." By that I mean, it contained everything MXTX originally wrote including kisses, swearing, innuendo, etc. MXTX did self-censor to avoid Real Censorship (hence the lack of NSFW scenes we may have gotten like in her previous novels), but that's a whole different thing. For all intents and purposes, consider the original version and (most of) its translations as being uncensored.

The revised version was first publicly released as a print novel in China. As such, it was actually censored. While "Hualian" is still there, and things are alluded to, it's a lot more vague. Kisses and a lot of other things were cut, including certain dialogue tidbits that perhaps were deemed a bit too obvious. (Plus a lot of Feng Xin and Qi Rong's cursing was removed lmao.)

HOWEVER, shortly after the print release, the audio drama started adapting the uncensored revised version. So we all knew there was an uncensored revised version somewhere in existence. It wasn't until the end of last month that we actually saw it! TGCF was available again on JJWXC after years of being "temporarily locked" to comply with regulations. (Though it was possible it was locked for other reasons. We will never fully know!) Not only was it finally unlocked, but it was actually updated to the uncensored revised version!

F.A.Q.s

1.) Why did MXTX make a revised version anyway? MXTX has mentioned before that she was not entirely satisfied with the original version of TGCF. Because she wrote and released each chapter in a serialized manner, with frequent (possibly daily?) updates, it doesn't surprise me that it didn't turn out exactly how she wanted. Now that she has the opportunity to sit down with it and go over everything on her own time, she's able to get it closer to what she wanted. In short: she's just really passionate about this story!

2.) Is there and English translation, or will there be? What about other languages? Officially, not yet. We don't know if there ever will be, as MXTX would have to re-negotiate the rights with publishers for translations, and at this time, we don't know if that'll happen. Unofficially, there are a few options: a. ClearNoodle has done some fan-translations you should check out here! b. By purchasing the webnovel on JJWXC now, you can MTL (machine translate) the novel. If you've seen screenshots in English floating around that aren't part of the fan-translations above, this is probably the source.

3.) What is JJWXC and how do I use it/purchase TGCF on it? JJWXC is the webnovel publishing site where TGCF was originally released. It hosts a giant array of C-novels, including most other danmei that you may have heard about. SV and MDZS were indeed also on JJWXC, but are currently (still) locked. To purchase TGCF (or any other novel) on JJWXC, cangji.net has an excellent guide and list of other helpful links to get you all set up. Please do check it out! Additionally, buying on JJWXC seems to be the most direct way to support authors. You can also throw bonus tips at them!

4.) How much has really changed in the revised version? A fair bit. Mostly, the changes are to do with plot structure, minor characters, overall flow, and so on. It's still essentially the same story, but in a way that feels fresh. Hualian in particular have exactly the same dynamic as before. MXTX added extra scenes between them, including very sweet and tender domestic stuff haha! There's also a few new lines of spicier dialogue to go along with some of the scenes that already existed in the original.

5.) So what is considered canonical? Both, in a way. MXTX has stated that she's happy if fans can enjoy both at once, and that we're free to pick-and-choose as we wish. Personally, while there are many things I prefer from the original, the revised version is something closer to MXTX's true vision for the novel. So I feel that holds a little bit of weight there, too.

6.) Will the manhua/donghua be adapting any of the newly revised content? So far that seems unlikely. The revised version facelifts a lot from the early parts of the story, which is stuff these adaptations have already covered. It would be hard to change things down the line now. At most they could add some of the extra dialogue or such, but we'll see if that's the case. For now, we simply don't know and shouldn't count on it. If you'd still like an adaptation of the revised, please absolutely check out the audio drama! It's easily become my personal fave adaptation of the story, and is made by a small but very passionate team who are close to MXTX. Thus, it's quite faithful and does the source material such justice! <3

#tgcf #tian guan ci fu #hob #heaven official's blessing #this post was supposed to be out WEEKS ago but such is life lol #nyerus.txt #guide

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skeren · 4 months ago

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Hi! I'm the mod for @svsss-fanon-exposed and saw your tags on my timeline post-- do you have a write-up of your own interpretation of the svsss timeline? I'd be really interested in seeing it if so bc I love to also look at how other people interpret these ideas!

Okay, so, I had to reread to get my bearings about what I saw that made me go 'no, that seems wrong' and it's a few specific points, I think. I want to say from the start that it all seems very well thought out and well supported and if you were working from a logical basis that makes sense for a setting like this, generally speaking, or even for one of MXTX's other works, you would be golden.

The problem is that you're being respectful, thoughtful, and giving all the background of the world the basis of logic and benefit of the doubt.

That doesn't work for SVSSS. At least, not quite to the extent that you're showing it to.

Okay, first thing's first. The one that I have no evidence for. This one is based more on feelings and the fact that even after he's running around running half the demon realm Binghe still calls Ning Yingying Shijie. By that point, he'd basically usurped the Head Disciple position off Ming Fan in the past, has been running his own sect part time, and generally been above and beyond successful for a given value of the word. He's certainly stopped being respectful to most people from Cang Qiong. I take this as proof that Ning Yingying must be older than Binghe, and not just someone who was a martial sibling who was there longer. She's Shijie because she was there longer, is older, and thus that's just the title she gets, full stop. I might be wrong, that's always an option, but that's how I see it, and I've always placed her at one or two years older, with Ming Fan at closer to three. Similarly, it makes her insistence on getting a new Shidi much more reasonable if she's been waiting for a while to get one, and didn't end up there shortly before Binghe, but years earlier with Shen Qingqiu being immensely picky and denying her new playmates.

Circling back to the respectfulness thing though. I absolutely and whole heartedly believe that the absolute vitriol that Shen Qingqiu receives from the sect and we see through Shang Qinghua's eyes is because he had no time to prove himself. He showed up, and was nearly immediately dumped with the head disciple position, probably because he has a brain in his head, and didn't even have to go through the choosing trials to get there. How dare he. We see after Shen Yuan takes over his life that given even a little justification that the people in this world will accept practically anything, so that means that Shen Jiu must have had absolutely no chance to prove himself to the sect, to prove he was worthwhile and didn't get the position through some kind of underhanded means or even bribery. This also fits the narrative beats of how Airplane initially wrote his backstory and the way it's presented that somehow, events always conspire to show Shen Jiu in the absolute worst light no matter what he does.

By this thought process, it puts him solidly at a year younger than Shang Qinghua, or at the very least, the same age with a few months between.

Following the logic of that, me and my bestie, who helped me get all these sorted out, thus have the whole situation with Tianlang-jun happen a scarce few years after he shows up, no more than three, and that they all ascend to being Peak Lords within the same year that the last head disciple (Probably Shang Qinghua) is chosen, which happened in a very short time after that fight.

So as you can see a lot of the same beats are followed, but I think you might be dropping the ball on the actual timeline of Shen Qingqiu being booted up to the head disciple position, because this is, in fact, an absurd exaggerated world that plays up all tropes and nepotism is nothing if not the most powerful trope and it would look like that from the outside if nobody knew the real circumstances of the Shen Jiu's arrival.

As for a thing I agree with but feel the need to expand on! I am aware that your timeline cuts off around when SVSSS starts, but I should point out that we know, near for certain, that SVSSS starts when Binghe is 14, and no more than perhaps four or five months away from his 15th birthday. The reason for this is that in one of the extras he says he is fifteen and this is almost immediately after he's moved into the bamboo house by Shen Yuan following his three months of cultivation, which we know happens as soon as he manages to unlock the OOC feature. I can't imagine that Shen Yuan took more than a month to get this unlocked, so there you go.

Forgive me that it's not a properly written out timeline such as yours, and instead picking at a few specific points, as I know how difficult these can be to maintain and have made them myself for other fandoms. I simply have not sat down and done so here. Thank you for reading this far, and I hope that this proves useful to you!

#svsss

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unforth · 27 days ago

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Do you know what the deal is with MXTX apparently having edited SVSSS and MDZS? Thank you.

Not the details but it strikes me as mostly a nothing burger.

When MXTX has done large-scale revisions of her stories, we've heard whispers about it for years because that's how long it takes to edit stories this long. We knew the TGCF revision was in the works for ages.

This, we heard nothing and then saw the word count change and then SVSSS was unlocked on JJWXC. I'd guess she was given specific information on what exactly had to go for her to finally get out of censorship purgatory, she did precisely that and nothing more, and now here we are.

To be clear, I'm mostly guessing based on the few solid data points I've got (I know the word counts changed, I know SVSSS has been unlocked) but I wouldn't expect these to be substantial changes beyond removal of content to meet censorship standards.

And I won't be finding out for myself anytime soon because when I gave JJWXC money, they then locked two of the three titles I paid for with no ability to access and no refund so uh. Fuck that. I support authors by buying print copies now, instead of trying for JJWXC, and the print copies of SVSSS and MDZS are already censored in mainland Chinese copies so *shrug*. Indeed, I wouldn't be shocked if the changes made were just making them match. (I wish JJWXC wasn't like that because I'd guess authors get a higher percentage of that money than they do from print sales but I don't have enough money to just burn it, sigh).

And substantial revisions get reprints - I own the TGCF one, for example.

I'm sure if we wait a day or four, some enterprising SVSSS fan will break down the differences they've observed. Then, we'll know. I've already seen a couple screen caps from people reading it on JJWXC so...yeah.

Sorry if this is scattered, I'm exhausted (not at all related to this to be clear, i love getting asks! Im just having A Week). 😓

#unforth replies #svsss #mdzs #mxtx #for all i know theres already more info #i havent looked at the tags yet today

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orenji-iro-no-sora · 2 months ago

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Thoughts on TGCF book 1.

Vol 1 | Vol 2| Vol 3| Vol 4| Vol 5| Vol 6| Vol 7| Vol 8

*Spoilers*

Xie Lian's crush

I finished the first book and at this point Xie Lian might as well be sighing, giggling, twirling his ponytail and kicking his legs. He is so charmed (I don't blame him). It's funny that literally in bottom of a deathly pit, he's worried that he's too comfortable in Hua Cheng's princess hold. MXTX protagonists really have the worst timings for gay epiphanies. (Does it count as an epiphany if you're still oblivious?)

Body in abyss, isolation, friendship, and reverence

While they did say that Xie Lian learned that when body is in abyss, the heart can't be in paradise, I think he still managed to find tiny moments of paradise with Hua Cheng. And isn't that life?

Xie Lian has been extremely lonely all this time which contributed to him being attached to San Lang quite quickly. Also, Hua Cheng's sincerity shines through even in a disguise so immaculately created. Xie Lian is smart and figure things out easily, he's able to perceive Hua Cheng for what he is, irrespective of what others say about who he was. Their friendship is something that he holds dear; he values Hua Cheng's company.

Him being able to tell that Hua Cheng is the only one who ever called him 'His Highness' out of genuine respect instead of sarcasm also shows how aware he is of other's harsh sentiments towards him.

However, I do believe that even though it may be idealistic to accept and focus on the positive, Xie Lian as deep as he has been in the abyss, carries a troubled heart. His desire to forget his own suffering, embarrassment at his own actions, even when they stem from right intentions is a proof that he sees himself as someone who failed at all levels.

Instinct to protect

This idea is brought up again and again but Xie Lian is helpless in his desire to save people. First, as the commander who "died" saving Banyue, facing demotions and ridicule yet trying to protect civilians at the border, protecting is his way of showing that he cares. And he cares... alot. He is instinctual in his love. He didn't need to protect San Lang (from the bite, from the pit) especially when he knew that he's Hua Cheng yet he acted before thinking. Someone who's as calm and collected as him falling to his knees, screaming from the edge of pit really demonstrates how much he care about San Lang (to the point of irrationality, atleast by his standards).

Saving the common people, parallels to morality in real life

While he acts embarrassed of his foolish (yet brave) dream of saving the common people, it's something he's still striving for. Despite feeling self conscious and disappointed that he could not live up to his words, despite his strong belief in his own misfortune, despite his poor self confidence and lack of support, despite still not knowing the answer to how to save people, he's still doing it. He's still brave.

Xie Lian is also a perfect example of how people who choose morality and ethics in life are often treated by the rest. MXTX often makes her characters pay the price of taking a moral stance. There's a strong culture of self serving in the Heavenly Realm, officials want to extend their influence and climb the ladder. They carry disdain for Xie Lian, thinking him naïve for wanting to do something fruitless and selfless like striving to save the world. Hua Cheng carries admiration for the exact same goals.

Heavenly Realm, to me, is a reflection of society, where people are worshipped for their accomplishments, elevated to a godly status for their fame and influence, even when they have acted mostly in self interest. Service to community is not desired, even laughed at. There's an acceptance for certain doom and no initiative to change it.

Banyue: symbolism for young adult cluelessness

When state preceptor Banyue asked Xie Lian how to save the people, he expressed remorse at his inability to answer her. Banyue feeling like she had been a failure because she hadn't figured out life in 200 hundred years is such a parallel to how it feels to be a young adult having no idea what you're supposed to do in life and slowly wasting away with the time passing gradually out of your control.

I always thought being an immortal would take away the pressure of time, but I guess nothing can save us from this commodifying mindset, trying to find value and reason for existence. Even ghosts want purpose. Even deities do.

Ambiguous conflicts and nuanced feelings through Nan Feng and Fu Yao

One of the things that I really liked was that both the major conflicts in the story, that of Xuan Ji and Banyue vs Central Plains, were ambiguous in terms culpability. Who's to blame? Every party involved was responsible and in case of the war helpless in their own need for survival. Another parallel to reality.

Similarly, Nan Feng and Fu Yao's feelings towards Xie Lian were also nuanced. They "volunteered" to help him but carried anger and resentment towards Xie Lian, towards themselves for not supporting him back then, admiring him but also condemning him at the same time. I'd love to see how it'll all play out, I'm sure Xie Lian knows who they are and I want to see how he'll deal with it all. Emotions are often nuanced and complicated, you can love someone but dislike them, you can fear someone and still crave them and this juxtaposition of complicated feelings is something I really enjoy in fiction (and hate in real life).

Stereotypes and expectations

Tremendous Masculinity. XD

It might be a gag, but it also shows that even deities do not wish to live up to any expectations people may have of them. Often what is believed is not rooted in reality at all, and heavenly officials are powerless and unable to control people's beliefs about them.

Worshippers' ideas about gods also contributed to Xianle's downfall. Xie Lian was not invincible, that was his crime. That's why, later Xie Lian constantly denied Puqi people that he cannot offer wealth or a wife or a child to anyone. He won't make promises he can't keep.

Hua Cheng's name

Finally, I'm not sure which idea I like better: Hua Cheng being his real name, destined and fated to seek and hold flowers, or Hua Cheng being his fake name that he chose to live for Xie Lian, that he chose to find meaning in him.

Either way, I'm looking forward to learning more about who he really is.

Final Note- Ruoye is so cute. It's a band but it's cute.

I am sure my ideas are bound to change as I proceed with the novels but for now I'd say the first book was really enjoyable, a good mix of horror and action and fun interactions. Onto the second one!! <3

#tgcf #tian guan ci fu #heaven official's blessing #hualian #xie lian #hua cheng #san lang #nan feng #fu yao #mu qing #feng xin #mxtx #mxtx tgcf #ban yue #orange pops #heaven official's curse on me

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realbeijinger · 10 months ago

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Another semi-coherent rant on climate change, the value of idealism, and TGCF (I finally finished!)

Well, I finished Tian Guan Ci Fu. And, oh man, if you read my last post, you’ll know that I was terrified that the entire novel would be a criticism of blind idealism. But I am SO glad I was wrong!!! Looking back on what I wrote before… it’s kind of hilarious how worried I was. I was so sure that I knew where it was going, was so busy preparing myself to be offended/emotionally crushed, that I wouldn’t even entertain the idea that maybe MXTX had a similar worldview to me all along.

In my defense, aside from the line, “Something like saving the common people… although foolish, it is brave,” everything seemed to point toward the idea that trying to do good is pointless. I mean, up until the moment when Xie Lian was lying with a sword in his chest on the streets of Yong’an, all of his efforts to do good had essentially been in vain. He hadn’t been able to help anyone.

And then, when the one guy stopped and gave Xie Lian his hat, I dunno, I just cried. It was so perfect! Like, ugh, damn you, MXTX! So sneaky… destroying us, just to bring us back later!! It was such a small, insignificant win, but it was exactly what Xie Lian (and I) needed. I love the line, “Just one person was enough!” Just one person doing something selfless. It’s enough to give us hope.

It really resonates with me because I think a lot about how to maintain hope. In terms of the climate crisis, I feel like Xie Lian—completely powerless. I want to stop eating meat, use less plastic, spend more time on environmental activism, but honestly, what do any of these things matter? The meat industry is not going to change because I choose to stop consuming. Even my activism has a completely negligible effect—whether or not I join a protest or write a letter to my congressman will almost certainly not be the deciding factor for any climate legislation, no matter how much effort I put in.

And yet, I still want to. I love the moment when Xie Lian chooses to get stabbed over and over rather than create a second plague of Human Face Disease, and White No-Face asks him in shock, “Why??”—as in, why would you ever do that? And Xie Lian responds: “I don’t have a reason—just because I want to! Even if I explained it to you… Useless trash like you wouldn’t understand.” This line is so great. Xie Lian can’t explain it to White No-Face, because, in truth, it isn’t entirely logical. It can’t be explained by reason. I want to do my measly, unimportant part to help the world… because I want to. Because it feels right. Because it’s my way of keeping my heart, of maintaining faith that there is some good in this world worth upholding. (As an aside, I love how the English title of the live action drama—which we may never get to see, God damn censorship!!!!—is called “Eternal Faith.” Of course it refers to Hua Cheng and Xie Lian’s faith in each other, but I think it also means having eternal faith in the value of doing good, despite centuries of experience that seem to show its pointlessness.)

As I talked about in my last post, if you zoom out far enough, nothing really seems to matter. Everything we love and care about will one day be gone. And yet, I believe we still have to act like it matters. This is the basic tenant of existentialism, and I think MXTX portrays this philosophical paradox really beautifully.

It’s funny, because I think MXTX has a lot of profound things to say, but in an interview I read, she warned against viewing her work too deeply, saying, “I am not a guru.” I get that she may not want the responsibility of giving people spiritual advice, but I do think she presents some really fascinating, really novel, philosophical ideas. So, sorry MXTX, but I’m about to analyze TGCF like it’s a piece of freakin scripture. Soo here we go…

The main theme she comes back to again and again is that fortune is limited, so the only way you can do good for others is by taking fortune from somebody else. Which leads the characters to a bunch of ethically impossible choices: the people of Yong’an and the people of Xianle can’t all be saved (Xie Lian must choose who to help), neither can the people of Wuyong and the surrounding kingdoms (Prince of Wuyong must choose), and Shi Wudu can’t save his brother from a tragic fate without taking fortune from an innocent person. When the characters try to avoid choosing, and try to “play God” by creating a “third path,” it just invites disaster.

But is this really true? Is fortune actually limited? It’s an idea that reminds me of Buddhism and Daoism, but also seems kind of revolutionary… (I like to think I know something about Chinese philosophy but it could certainly be a thing and I don’t know). I don’t believe in fate, but I do believe in limited resources, and the idea that nature tends toward balance. I think conceiving of it this way, as a pool of fortune, is really interesting.

It reminds me of this Meme:

In other words, who is the protagonist and who is the villain is entirely based on perspective. And, according to the laws of nature, we all must survive by eating others, or causing others to starve (i.e. avoiding being eaten).

I tried to think if this is really true in all areas of life. I’m a teacher, and one of the ways I convince myself that I am doing good in the world is by helping my students—preparing them well for college so that they can get into good schools and follow their dreams. But then, is this just taking fortune from others? If I do prepare my students well, and as a result they all get into top universities, does that mean they are taking spots away from other students? Am I simply just helping “my own,” at the expense of others?

One place where I see this concept play out very clearly is with our modern, industrialized society. As I mentioned in my last post, we live in a world of abundance. Most of us have enough food to eat, live in houses with electricity and running water, and don’t worry about a whole host of diseases endured by our ancestors. It seems we have done what Xie Lian couldn’t—we have expanded the well of fortune for most of humanity.

But this fortune wasn’t spontaneously created. It was taken from other species. It was borrowed against our own future, when climate change will likely destroy this world of abundance we have created, causing untold suffering. In truth, when it comes to prosperity, there is no such thing as a free lunch.

Even now, when we ought to be enjoying our fortune, most of us are not happy. We want other things. We take food, clothing, and shelter for granted, creating even bigger, more lofty demands—a bigger car, a better house, a machine that’s sole purpose is to make bread. In fact, it seems like whenever we make things “better,” the goalposts just move. I recently read a book called Four Thousand Weeks: Time Management for Mortals, which mentioned that with the advent of washing machines and vacuum cleaners, everyone assumed there would be more free time. Yet, the real outcome was that standards of cleanliness just changed. Suddenly, people expected you to wear fresh clothes every day and have a perfectly dust-free home, which meant spending just as much time cleaning as in the past.

And according to psychologists, getting what we want doesn’t really make us happier. Instead, something like getting a promotion causes our happiness to spike, before it quickly returns to baseline. The psychologist Dan Gilbert writes that the purpose of our emotions is to act like a compass—to tell us which direction to go in. If you feel good, you can continue the way you are going. If you feel bad, you should probably turn—make a change. But if you get what you want and become permanently happy, your compass is now broken. It’s stuck in one direction and becomes useless.

All of this is very Buddhist, of course. Suffering is not caused by our external circumstances, but our desire to change them.

Like I said, I don’t necessarily believe in “fate” or “fortune.” But I believe this all points to something deeper that MXTX is getting at: which is that we cannot fundamentally make a better world, for the common people, or for anyone. This idea of “better” doesn’t really exist. The world is as it is. Trying to alter that is like playing God. And like Xie Lian says, “In this world, there are no true gods…”

So, what do we do? How can we survive this absurdist tragedy of life? I don’t think we can just throw up our hands and not give a shit—that way lies depression and Jun Wu-style cruelty. We cannot lose our heart. But we also can’t try to fix everything.

One thing I find a bit difficult about MXTX is she is very clear about the impossible situations our characters find themselves in, but not really clear about the solution. She seems critical of the characters’ actions (I’m thinking also of Wei Wuxian here), but what exactly does she think they should have done? In other words, what is the point?

I spent a long time thinking about this. And I realized that Xie Lian was able to get back on his feet, find happiness and make peace with himself. How did he do this? Ultimately, I see Xie Lian’s solution as having three parts: self-sacrifice, gratitude, and purpose. Which all sounds very academic and maybe not that profound on an emotional level. But hear me out. Because, in the end, I think these choices are incredibly beautiful. They are the kind of thing that make me feel like reading TGCF was actually a spiritual experience, no matter what MXTX says. That makes me admire Xie Lian and want to follow him (like the God he is).

Okay so first: self-sacrifice. If fortune is limited, and the only way to make others’ lives better is to take fortune from someplace else, then there is really only one place you can take it from without hurting others—yourself.

So, part of Xie Lian’s solution is to take fortune from himself and give it to others. It’s why he asks for a cursed shackle that disperses his fortune, so that his fortune will naturally flow to those around him. It’s, of course, a very small thing. He is no longer playing God, or trying to “fix” the world on a grand scale. He is simply, in his own, quiet way, serving the common people.

My desire to give up meat and to spend more time on activism—these things feel like big sacrifices for me. And yet, they will have a very small impact on the greater situation in the world. They’re a drop in the ocean. I still want to do it, but it’s hard. It’s hard to care, or think that these things matter. Yet, this is the trade-off Xie Lian was willing to make. I really admire him for it.

I believe self-sacrifice is actually a really important, beautiful thing, that our society has forgotten the value of. We are individualistic—obsessed with our own wants. As I mentioned previously, our expectations have risen, so we buy and buy and buy. We are unwilling to rein in our consumption. I know a lot of people baulk at lifestyle changes as a solution to the climate crisis, and I agree that putting pressure on individuals instead of governments or corporations is misguided. But, first of all, there simply aren’t enough resources on earth to sustain our current levels of consumption. And, second… I don’t think we can completely let individuals off the hook. What is society anyway, but a collection of individuals? If we are going to address this thing, it’s going to take a massive movement—bigger than the civil rights movement or the works’ rights movement or the women’s movement. It’s going to take millions of people worldwide getting out of their own heads, their own lives, and concerning themselves with the greater good. That requires immense sacrifice.

Which takes me to gratitude. In order to be willing to sacrifice, you have to appreciate what you already have.

People often talk about gratitude these days as a path to mental health. Instinctively, it sounds like an uplifting, positive thing. And it is… but it also entails having a relatively negative worldview. It means remembering all the horrible things that exist in this world which we are lucky enough to avoid on a daily basis. You stepped in some dog shit? Well, that sucks, but you could have stepped into an open manhole and broken your neck! So! That’s something to be grateful for.

We are all so lucky. I’m sure everyone reading this has pains and traumas and challenges. This isn’t to diminish those, but, I hope, at least we all have at least one person to love. That’s all Hua Cheng had, and it’s what kept him going. Just one person was enough. And most of us, I hope, get to eat food every day, get to sleep in a bed, get to play video games or read novels or write poetry when we are sad. Not everyone gets those things.

Xie Lian, of course, was the king of low expectations, because he knew his future was going to be bad. He had intentionally accepted bad luck for a lifetime. So, there was no point in hoping for things to get better.

I think this attitude is best shown by his interaction with the Venerable of Empty words. The Venerable of Empty Words feeds off people’s fears. But Xie Lian didn’t really have any. When the Venerable of Empty Words warned him that his hut will collapse in two months, his response is, “Two months? If it’s still standing in seven days, then it’ll be a real miracle.” Because his expectations are so low, he’s essentially immune to fear. I can’t help but think that if you could really think this way, it would be a kind of superpower. It reminds me of the famous quote by spiritual teacher Krishnamurti, “Do you know what my secret is? You see, I don’t mind what happens.”

And so Xie Lian is okay with everything. He can sleep anywhere, crash boulders on his chest for money, not eat for three days, regularly suffer corpse poisoning, and still be okay.

Which leads to my third point: purpose. Xie Lian is able to endure such hardship because his expectations are low, but also he knows all his suffering has a purpose. “If I am to become a God of misfortune, then so be it,” he says. “As long as I know deep down that I am not.” He is okay with being laughed at or avoided for his bad luck, because deep down he knows he is doing the right thing. People can withstand a great deal if they feel their suffering has meaning. In Man’s Search for Meaning, the psychiatrist Victor Frankl’s writes about the horrors of living through a concentration camp, and how over and over, it was creating purpose that allowed him, and others, to find motivation to survive. Which I think has an important lesson for self-sacrifice. People are willing to sacrifice a lot, if they feel their sacrifice has purpose.

I get it when MXTX says that she is not a guru, and maybe it’s a lot to ask of a danmei novel to take spiritual advice from it. The book wasn’t necessarily perfect, and I do have some critiques (which I was gonna add here, but this thing is already wayyy too long). But… I do think I found something really meaningful in this story—some inspiration. I want to follow Xie Lian’s example, and live with gratitude and acceptance, while keeping my faith in doing the right thing. In other words, WWXLD! (What Would Xie Lian Do?)

#tgcf #mxtx #heaven official's blessing #tgcf meta #tian guan ci fu #climate change #xie lian #hualian #danmei #chinese bl

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heartinhyacinth · 3 months ago

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The revised version of tgcf to me during my brief moments of hesitation about reading it in its entirety: “what if…my real face was hideous?”

Me to the revised: “that’s fine.”

The revised to me: “oh yeah? Would it still be fine if I were some monstrous beast?”

Me to the revised: “We’re friends…so I’d still want to see. We should be…honest, I think. I mean, as long as it’s you…I’ll love it.”

Me to the revised: “what matters is you, not the state of you <3”

I absolutely love the bits and pieces I’ve read that were translated by clearnoodle but it’s still daunting at times haha. I’m sure I’ll love it and I trust that mxtx knew what she was doing but the autism and change go at it like FengQing, so. But so far with the parts I’ve read, I don’t view them as replacing the original. I love the original and always will. But I also love the revised so far. I believe they can coexist in my mind, focus given to either version depending on the mood. I’m currently trying to reread the original atm, but I definitely plan (with a weird mix of fear and excitement) to read the revised version at some point in the future :)

(Dialogue is from the donghua btw, I didn’t want to find that page in the book ironically)

#tgcf #tian guan ci fu #heaven official's blessing #hualian #revised version #revised tgcf

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mxtxfanatic · 3 months ago

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Hi! If you don't mind me asking:

What does mxtx says about jc's character? Like some jc stans claim that she has said he has a knife tounge and tofu heart, (I don't believe it still) is it true? I don't know where to find her interviews, so I asked you instead:)

Thank you 💕

MXTX speaks on Jiang Cheng’s character in two places that I know: the old version of the postscript of the novel (absent from the official 7seas release) and an interview from before she left socials.

In the postscript, she only has this to say about Jiang Cheng:

Everyone should know what Jiang Cheng’s keyword is without me saying it. In the beginning, I thought with with XY’s [Xue Yang] existence, Jiang Cheng’s negative energy would definitely seem skimpy. Who knew he became the ultimate superstar of the comment section? Compared to him, XY was almost a poor, has-been idol. Only now and then would someone decide to drag him out again. Of course, in the end, under the combined PDA attacks of WWX and LWJ, the past and present superstars were obliterated.

And in this interview, she goes more in-depth. Sidenote: while I appreciate the interview for what it, I do not appreciate the ways in which they insert their own opinions about how they think MXTX should feel about Jiang Cheng into the actual interview commentary, and it shows how much of a bias even the interviewer had towards his character to have asked so many leading questions in an attempt to get a positive response out of her about him.

Anyways, here's some expansion by @jiangwanyinscatmom on the nuance of what mxtx meant by “not heinous/evil” that was lost in translation here and some more re-translation (still of the same interview as above):

墨香铜臭：本性不是特别坏，但是有人要讨厌他的话，那也没办法。因为你讨不讨厌一个人，也是……也是自己的问题。

He is not a 坏 (basically spoiled broken, corrupt) person by nature, but if someone wants to dislike him, there is nothing I can do about it. Because whether you dislike someone or not is also... your own choice.

MXTX's answer about why Jiang Cheng never could marry and how she sees him as a character (parenthesis section for jiangwanyinscatmom's own translation notes):

墨香铜臭：就性格比较差劲吧，谈了几个，吹了。 (He just has an 差劲 (average/lame/disappointing, let down) temperament, he dated several times but they were all failures) 墨香铜臭：我眼中的江澄……我眼中的江澄，就……其实没怎么样，我写文还是比较客观的。我看他……我看他就、就像是在看一个作品。女主持：如果让大大本人来介绍江澄这个人的话，你会怎么介绍他？墨香铜臭：我觉得他是一个负能量比较……重……的人。女主持：这么简单吗？墨香铜臭：对，负能量比较重，但是也不是个、也不是个十恶不赦的人吧。对。 MXTX: In my eyes, Jiang Cheng... In my eyes, Jiang Cheng is... Actually, it's nothing special. I am relatively objective when writing. When I look at him... When I look at him, it's like looking at a work of art. Female host: If you were to introduce Jiang Cheng, how would you introduce him? MXTX: I think he is a person with a lot of negative energy... Female host: Is it that simple? MXTX: Yes, he has a lot of negative energy, but he is not a heinous person. Yes.

In short: MXTX describes Jiang Cheng as a character that is filled with negativity and unable to date, but he is not inherently evil nor to the point of being irredeemable. He is a product of the story and fulfills the role he was created to fulfill in the plot. He's not a good person, not overtly and not secretly. That's it.

#mxtx asks #mdzs asks #anon #from what i'm understanding: the nuance of the 'evil/heinous' is #the difference between a schoolyard bully and cecil rhodes #yeah a schoolyard bully is a terrible person and their victims will likely never want to forgive them or befriend them in this life #but that is NOT AT ALL on the same level of what cecil rhodes did #interpersonal jackassery vs. societal-level crimes against humanity #(though i think the people of yunmeng would beg to differ about jc's crimes only happening on the 'interpersonal level' but i digress)#canon jiang cheng #jiang cheng

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thatswhatsushesaid · 4 months ago

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ok so i understand why it's appealing to read junlian (like i'm literally in that camp with all the respectable fans with impeccable tastes) but. but i think it's Important for the sake of fully Understanding their dynamic and representing it in the most accurate way to keep in mind - at all times - that it was always meant to be a (pseudo)parental relationship first and foremost.

JW is not the representation of a toxic jealous ex. he's the representation of a toxic parent who will traumatise you in the most horrific ways while saying (and genuinely believing in his own mind) that he's only doing it for your own good. he loves you because you remind him of all the good parts of himself. he can't stand seeing his own reflection in you. he won't ever let you go. it breaks his heart to have to break you, but what choice does he have? the outside world is cruel and it's his job to prepare you for suffering.

yeah i don't think the source material supports a read of jun wu's relationship with xie lian as an ex of any kind tbh, that's not the vibe i got at any point while reading the books. my shipping goggles aside, i hope i haven't conveyed that through my of my commentary, and if i have--oops! was it the comparison i drew between junlian and hannigram in my meme? i mean, even though by s3 the question of hannibal being explicitly in love with will graham is broached on screen by bedelia du maurier (to say nothing of their overtly intimate embrace before they tumble off the cliff together), s1 is where the comparison between the two dynamics really works for me. because imo hannibal's fascination with will at that point is at its most paternalistic, and will's rejection of him at the end of s1 when he finds out (or believes he's found out!) what hannibal did to abigail is analogous to xie lian's complete rejection of jun wu the moment he sees his reflection in the sword. end-of-s1 will is about as interested in hannibal romantically as he is in voluntarily eating abigail's ear: he isn't, he didn't ask for this, he's in hell, etc. similarly, xie lian's entire understanding of his relationship with jun wu, the rock and fundament of his time in the heavenly court, has just been irreparably destroyed. from his perspective, everything he thought he knew and understood to be true about their relationship was built on lies, and he's not wrong.

all that to say, while i do think that the text can support a romantic read of jun wu's feelings towards xie lian without ever explicitly confirming it as such, i for sure agree with you that that wasn't mxtx's intention when writing the dynamic. she's pretty clear, again and again when describing how xie lian sees jun wu, that his behaviour is seen and interpreted as parental and fatherly.

#asks answered #ray reads tgcf #jun wu #xie lian

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navarice · 2 years ago

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my dearest fellow mdzs stans, i really don't want to spoil anyone's fun but sometimes some things must be said. please do NOT mistake fanon characteristics for canon characteristics because by GOD is it frustrating to dissect a character when all anyone wants to do is blindly turn away from the very vivid and metastasizing flaws.

jiang cheng is an extremely complicated character, and that's why we love him. but by god, he is a jealous, self-victimizing asshole with a massive inferiority complex who likes to torture (probably) innocent look-a-likes of his (as far as he knew) dead adjacent family member. jesus christ this isn't some simple case of miscommunication (well it is but, you know no amount of communication will ever mend the giant chasm that developed between them. especially not with asians raised within the most classical case of asian parenting, i mean come on now) but a matter of deep and intense self-loathing developed since early childhood projecting violently outwards. let me be clear. he hates wei wuxian. he loathes him. he wants to kill him with his own hands again and again so some part of his convoluted sense of justice and superiority will be fulfilled. he's a classist, a bully, and abusive to everyone around him. ong at the end of mdzs, i was nearly crying tears of joy when jin guangyao flayed him flat on his ass bc that man needed to hear it. he needed to feel it. he needed to stop blaming others and blame himself.

and!! he's homophobic!! the entire cultivation world is, yes, but he's the only one we see give wei ying and lan zhan active shit for it!!

point is...his complexity makes him interesting. as a child, he was pretty alright tbh. he was understandably upset when three of his dogs got taken away and he saw his dad give a completely random kid such a gentle hug when jiang cheng never received one so far. he was a kid, and it was sad and helped the readers get a glimpse at the already dysfunctional family dynamics before wei ying came into the picture. as an adolescent/teen, yes he had a lot of unresolved rage and inferiority issues building up when he was constantly being compared to wei wuxian by his mother and not given enough reassurance from his father (once again, all present before wei ying...everyone just likes to dump the shit on him bc it's easier to point fingers at others than at yourself). perhaps he could have turned out differently if literally either of his parents stepped up and took accountability. however, after the burning of lotus pier? after the golden core transfer? after wei ying stuck around as his subordinate just as he promised, and protected jiang cheng like he promised, and defected just to save the yunmeng clan's reputation so jiang cheng doesn't have to put up with the other clan's shit, still continuing to keep his promise? after wei ying's death? idk abt y'all, but all bets are off bro.

mxtx makes it a point to make him so irredeemable. he's an exploration of what can go wrong if you let your traumas, self-hatred, and revenge fantasies blind you. he has the worst traits of his parents for a reason, directly contrasting with the other sibling, who is a perfect picture of eldest daughters born into a dysfunctional family. jiang yanli has the best traits of her parents (in terms of compassion and standing up for her family), but the family dynamics also made her the way she was. the responsible, the mediator, the occasional mother, stepping in where madam yu cannot.

there's just so much potential to hold him accountable buried under the pretense of misunderstandings and kinnie moments. he just had so many chances, more than any other character, to make a different choice. to actually look past his misgivings and unlearn the bad habits he used to protect himself as a child. i'm not saying he has to magically heal from all his traumas, but at the very least know not to be like his parents. but he wasn't written that way. because that is what happens when you give into your insecurities and generational trauma.

bottom line: jiang cheng is a fantastic archetype that needs to be explored in all his authenticity, including his moments of loyalty and cruelty.

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