#loki was tortured

[galaxythreads]

Foegive me of this is a question you've answered in the past but, what are your thoughts on the scene at the beginning of Avengers 1 where Loki sort of doubles over/trips on his way out of the SHIELD base and it's never addressed?

Also thoughts on the canonicity of various myths to the MCU Loki backstory?

no worries, I don't mind answering questions twice. My blog is long and tales tales, so I understand if people don't want to hunt for answers and just reask stuff.

as far as your question goes,

SCREAMING SCREAMING SCREAMING. Do you KNOW how much I LOVE that SCENE (the answer is no because I haven't talked about it) but I LOVE THAT SCENE! That is THE scene to me. I love everything about how carefully it's handled because what you have to look for is SUBTEXT here, because the Avengers was written in a way that forces you to think. It doesn't lay everything out for you, it's intended you come to your own conclusions.

The Avengers trusts you and that is a very strange thing for media now. It's pretty rare to find one that doesn't treat you like an idiot.

Breaking this down:

The first frame with Loki is of him kneeling. That is the first thing we learn about him. I want you guys to remember that the introduction of a character is HUGE. It tells us the most important things for us to know about that character right now

So what do we need to know about Loki RIGHT THEn. Right at the start of the movie?

he's smart. He opened the portal with the Tesseract, from across space, and teleported himself to another planet. This is something no one has replicated (using an infinity stone from across space). Loki is said to "know it's workings like they never will" which says a lot about him.

Loki was GIVEN the scepter by the Chitauri, but if you watch that opening opening scene, it looks more like it's being forced on him than him GLADLY taking it. (There's this half second where the Other waits to make sure Loki is actually going to hold it. Loki doesn't reach for it until he has to. One of the most powerful objects in existence and it practically has to be shoved into his hands) Look how close their bodies are. Like bro???

-okay, then Loki comes through the portal and he is KNEELING. so the first, and I mean the VERY FIRST thing we need to know about Loki is that he is in the subservience of someone/thing else. This gif below is artwork of that moment, but still. Like. who do you think he's kneeling TO? Well, the opening scene of the Avengers showcases that the Other is kneeling to Thanos, Ergo, using the subtext trust that the director/writers have given us, that means Loki was kneeling to Thanos before he came through the portal.

And then, Loki comes out like a hunted animal, but he legitimately does not remember he's holding the scepter until Fury points it out to him. You can see him look down at it in confusion. And okay, WHY is he confused? I remember watching this for the first time at 14 and going huh, that's kinda weird he forgot he had the weapon. What this is trying to tell us is that this is not a familiar weapon to Loki AND -- it is doing something to him. It's emitting that same misty thing that it does when Loki possesses someone later. That wispy smoke is always so interesting to me because of the implications. The scepter doesn't do that unless it is FRESHLY possessing someone. And what do we know about Loki TWO SECONDS AGO?

he was kneeling to thanos.

Anyway, so Loki gives his name, is not a well man, and the scene you're actually referring to is this one:

which GETS ME EVERY TIME. I could talk aout this scene for hours. The implications of it. (Also if you've read my work YSFSLWFTCA, that man who grabs Loki's back is Nathan Swenson ;)

So I've been getting professional acting training for about 6-7 months now and one thing I have learned is that nothing makes it in the movie by accident. The director has to approve it, the editor, the producer, up the whole food chain. This was not Tom Hiddleston sneezing and then them keeping it in the movie because it's funny. So this was put in on purpose. They WANTED you to know that Loki isn't okay. And a scene like this would get like what? idk 3-6 takes at a minimum, which means that they flimed this ON PURPOSE 3-6 times. Tom Hiddleston was instructed to do this ON PURPOSE. That guy who approaches Loki's back was told to do that ON PURPOSE. Loki was supposed to be shown to be a mess physically. Like. Then they go and KEEP doing this later, when Loki can't get into the car and can barely keep himself upright. Loki doesn't start to look "okay" until Germany and even then he's not doing amazing.

What's interesting to me, beyond the obvious implications toward bodily harm - torture! :) - is the timing. Loki immediately topples when Clint hands the Tesseract to Selvig. There's something about Clint doing that that seems to cause him physical pain. That could be a coincidence, and I bet it is because it's not brought up again in the movie that the Tesseract exchanging hands gives Loki physical pain, but it is interesting.

Another interesting point is that Clint looks away, Selvig doesn't care, but that sheild agent Immediately moves up to put his hand on Loki's back to support him. And Loki doesn't flinch. That always struck me as weird, right, because even people who don't have trauma flinch when someone touches their back and they weren't expecting it. And Loki clearly wasn't? So why didn't he twitch at least a little? Tom Hiddleston is too good of an actor for that to be a mistake.

So to me that means that Loki just... doesn't have feeling in his spine at that moment. Or he was in too much pain to even register it. Loki was clearly tortured with some type of heat. If you watch him in this scene he's displaying all the signs of heat exhaustion. So I kinda think that maybe Loki got burned so badly on his back before this happened that he just... doesn't feel anything anymore. It had to have been recent for walking to nearly send him toppling, but Loki's back is a source of issues for the entire movie.

That is why this scene is here from a directing perspective. to SET UP Loki's back problems. The extent of them are left vague, but I think when Tom Hiddleston and Joss Whedon sat down to talk about Loki for the Avengers, one of the things they must have agreed on was that Loki was not in good physical condition and they planned to show that THE ENTIRE MOVIE. I don't know if they talked about torture or Thanos, but they talked about SOMETHING.

But I just...idk. That guy grabs Loki's back to support him in an effort to help and it's just so interesting to me. Because how does the mind control WORK then? Selvig is obsessed with the Tesseract. He almost seems possessed by that rather than Loki. Clint goes completely silent and doesn't do anything except the mission. THIS GUY immediately comes to take care of Loki, and Loki himself is ruthlessly efficient with one goal in his mind. So it's interesting. Subtext! :D

So what do I think about this scene. I think that Loki was tortured and his back is giving out and I LOVE THIS SCENE BECAUSE IT IS SO DARK BUT TRYING NOT TO BE.

Thanos' immediate response to something not going his way is torture and he knows Loki. Knows him well enough to pick his brother out of a crowd in Infinity War and leave him alive until the end. Knows him well enough to make his death personal. Strangulation is a crime of passion. Thanos hurt Loki and he knew Loki, and the idea that Thanos made sure that Loki wouldn't see the torture coming - by doing it to his back/spine - is just an extra layer of awful. Thanos left Thor alive. On purpose. He could have killed him. He didn't.

That was Loki's punishment. Leaving Thor alone. Because Thanos knew that would hurt him the most.

But Thanos also chose to kill Loki, and in infintiny war, while hunting the stones, Thanos doesn't make any unnecessary bodies. Which to me, means that Thanos had to kill Loki because he saw Loki as a threat.

So anyway, somehow I'm talking about Loki and Thanos again, who are my favorite horrible duo and I love talking about them because their relationship is so so messed up. I wish that the Loki series had DONE something with Thanos and Loki, but they didn't. :/

But why Loki's back? Like Thanos started with Loki's head in the post-credits scene of Thor 1:

why did he move to Loki's back? Also the fact that Thanos was having Loki hunt down the Infinity Stones through astral projection and/or enchantment is just so messed up and I love it. Wish it had been explored because THIS ^^^ was the giant beast I wanted poked at in Loki season 1.

[lucianalight]

“Sometimes a rage builds up and you just gotta let it out. Do you remember that time I was so angry with my father and my brother, I went down to Earth and I held the whole of New York city hostage with an alien army? Tried to use the mind stone on Tony Stark? It didn’t work so I threw him off the building. It wasn’t tactical. I lost it. Sometimes our emotions get the better of us.”

Is this a retcon? Is Loki saying he wasn't tortured or mind controlled and he attacked Earth because he was angry at his family?

Well, let's analyze the situation.

They went to interrogate X-5 who according to Mobius is an asshole that knows them and their tactics. Mobius tells others to not let X-5 get under their skin with a emphasis on Loki, thinking he is the one who most probably is going to lose his temper. But that's not what happens.

Loki does not lose his cool. On the contrary he plays the role of a villain(which is not really convincing tbh) and tries to intimidate X-5. Mobius is the one who gets so angry and hits Brad within a minute after X-5 turns his attention to him. Mobius storms off trying to convince Loki that it was a tactical action and he could play the heavy keys. But when he calms down he confesses that wasn't the case. Then Loki says those lines.

Now let's remember some similar situations we've seen Loki doing sth like this. Before the coronation when Thor was nervous, Loki makes jokes, gives him confidence, tries to calm him down. And after that when Thor is angry, Loki again tries to calm him down, agreeing with Thor saying he is on his side. When Odin saves them from Jotunheim and is furious with Thor, Loki tries to intervene and stop the situation from escalating. In TDW after their argument on the boat, Loki again tries to light the mood with a joke. So this is a typical and in character behavior for Loki.

Should Loki's words be accepted at face value? MCU Loki lies sometimes but he is not the god of lies like comics. He mostly speaks the truth, but not the complete truth. Half-truth is what he mostly uses. He shapes the sentences in a way that people interpret them how they want based on how they think. Especially when it comes to the things that he doesn't want others to know. Things that he was taught were weakness.

Moreover there are undeniable proof in canon that Loki was tortured (his physical state in Avengers, threats of pain by the Other…etc), and his mind was influenced by the mind stone(confirmed by Marvel). There are even moments in S1 that confirm Loki didn't want or enjoy to hurt people. He's had to. And Miss Minutes offered Loki to kill Thanos, which affected Loki more than any of her offers.

"Unbeknownst to him, the scepter was also influencing him, fueling his hatred over his brother Thor and the inhabitants of Earth."

Unbeknownst to him

Remember in S1 Sylvie tried to enchant him but couldn't? Loki said it's because his mind's too strong. For other magic users? Yes. For mind stone? Maybe. Since we know he wasn't mind control like Selvig and Clint. But the Other had a connection through the scepter to his mind and his negative emotions was being amplified. Which Loki didn't know. His memories were clearly tampered with too as he remembered Thor tossing him into an abyss which didn't happen.

In the main timeline Loki spends a year and half in a cell, where he had access to his magic. Being away from the scepter, having the use of his magic and nothing but time, Loki sooner or later have realized what happened. We don't know when exactly Loki realized that the mind stone was influencing him. But we've seen in other MCU movies/shows that removing mind related magic in most cases also needs magic.

TV Loki on the other hand, right after his escape got arrested in a place that he couldn't use his magic, spending his days either running from or after somebody and trying to fix a disaster. He probably hasn't that realization yet. And even if he had, do you think Loki would talk about it? I don't think so. Just like he never talks or wants to talk about his torture.

There are more than enough clues in canon to confirm that Loki was tortured and his mind was influenced and nothing can retcon all of that.

Back to the scene in 2x02, Loki is trying to calm down Mobius through sympathizing with him. He can't say "Hey remember that time I fell into Thanos clutches after I committed suicide, then he tortured and brainwashed me through my hatred and anger, and sent me to take over the Earth and when I got away you found me and tortured me and now you can't handle one minute taste of your own medicine?" That would have been counterproductive. So instead Loki is telling the truth but not all of it. He was angry at Thor and Odin and his emotions got the better of him. But those emotions, those thoughts and words were influenced. That's what Loki's not telling because he wants to sympathize with Mobius through a similar experience.

Could the topic of New York invasion handled better? Certainly. Otherwise there wasn't a need for this meta. But Loki's behavior can be explained in-universe and through his canon characterization without retconning any other proof and clues.

[theefloraknight]

[its-all-a-little-bit-magical]

so I’ve been thinking a lot recently about how Avengers (2012) might have been different if Loki had showed up looking even more obviously tortured, as he did in the original concept art by Andy Park (see below if you’ve not seen it before!), and specifically how his encounter with Cap in Stuttgart might have gone and I have no idea what happened in my brain but here! have a ficlet that seized my imagination and would not let go!

“Loki, right?” Steve said, straightening from the crouch he’d landed in. “I’ve heard a lot about you, but I’ve got to say: from where I’m standing, I’m seeing a hell of a lot more burden than purpose.”

Loki laughed, scarred lips parted on a smile. “You lack vision, Captain,” he said, his voice low and rich. “But I can fix that.”

And then he seized the edge of the shield with blackened fingers and tore it away as if it was nothing, hurled it into the crowd like it was a child’s toy, like Steve hadn’t been holding it so tightly he could feel the leather strap biting into his palm, and Steve felt the moment the scepter touched him like something blooming behind his eyes. Gleaming, dazzling power flooded his senses, scorching through him like a fever, burning out everything else, chasing infection through his veins until he was clean, until he was whole, until the memory of all his petty wants faded into nothing and he could see.

Steve lifted his gaze only slowly.

Loki’s eyes—still bloodshot, still dark, hardly a sliver of blue visible in them—were fixed on Steve's, watching him, and there was a strange, predatory heat to his expression. Then he smiled, scarred flesh stretching. “Hello, Captain,” he murmured. “Now do you see?”

Dimly, Steve was aware of his former teammates’ voices rising frantically in his ear—their fear, their alarm, their concern—but he only pulled the device out and dropped it on the ground beside him. He did not need it now.

“I see just fine,” he said. Loki’s smile widened.

[queerolddad]

“I dunno Casey — he’s been like this since he came back. He says it keeps him from time slipping.”

my h/c is that Loki is so terrified of losing Mobius permanently that he refuses to leave Mobi’s side — even just for a can of Josta

[abitofboth]

I saw this tweet from @/forbestiel and I HAD to share!!!!!

[lucianalight]

Thats probably what odin meant by how frigga told him not to use "asgardian justice" on loki and instead use ultra super heavy duty grounding in the dungeon

"Asgardian justice" was mentioned by Thor in Avengers. But it is curious that Thor was so sure about Loki not breaking under torture, when Fury mentioned pain. I have always headcanoned that this is because Thor and Loki as princes of Asgard must have been captured by enemies a couple times and went through sth horrible. Then you remember how Loki in the first movie says a guard must be flogged for taking so long to inform Odin of their travel to jotunheim. But he actually never tries to punish someone physically when he has the highest power in Asgard. Moreover Loki expected to be tortured by Shield and wasn't fazed about it. He also expected to be executed by Odin. And Odin tells him as much. He tells Loki that the only reason he's still alive is Frigga. So considering how well Loki knew Asgard and Odin, it wasn't far-fetched.

But Odin also knew Loki well enough. He wouldn't have subjected Loki to a physical form of torture. It wouldn't work anyway according to Thor. No, he condemned Loki to sth far worse. The pain and fear that broke down Loki in the first place.

Besides, I wouldn't call solitary confinement for life -literally one of the worst forms of torture- "grounding". But I do think that's how Odin meant for people to see it. As a sign of kindness for his eViL child.

All of this tells us that torture and execution wasn't frowned upon in Asgard.

Still you could say that Thor wouldn't let sth like torture and execution happen to Loki and considering his characterisation before TR, this was true(I don't think he knows solitary confinement is in fact a form of torture). No matter how much Loki and Thor fought and hurt each other, there were lines they wouldn't cross. Thor also didn't believe Odin would do that to Loki. He still held Odin in high regards and considered him a wIsE kInG and a gOoD fAtHeR.

But then Marvel has Thor talking about torturing a child nonchalantly and refer to it as "standard stuff" which makes the whole picture looks very very ugly and worse than what you imagined before. So does that mean it's standard stuff for Asgard? Was this how Thor and Loki were treated growing up? Loki mentions Odin favoring Thor and always forgiving him. Does that mean it was Loki who was always punished? Was he flogged and that's why it's the first form of punishment he can think of? Would Thor let Loki be tortured facing Asgardian JuStIcE? That's not the Thor I know. Even not the Odin I know. At least not his mcu version. And I don't think mcu Frigga would ever let sth like that happen to her children.

So I'm not going to consider What If as canon. Many of its episodes directly contradict mcu canon anyway. It's only a good inspiration for writing fanfics.

[nobodymitskigabriel]

So the thing about Gabe to me is that he doesn’t quite fit in the categorically of Angel Who Is Eventually Humanized the way that Castiel or Anna do. He is more down to earth than the other angels but specifically in the way that GODS are, not humans. Like, even if he's not literally Loki, Gabriel is functionally an earthen deity for the millenia he spent dicking around and killing people. Other gods are literally the crowd he runs in, and he's an asshole because gods are assholes (and he specifically decided to be one of the more extreme asshole gods). Even though his sensibilities can be very human-like, even if he generally likes humans and wants them to stick around, there was always some level of divinity to his cruelty. So even if he did ultimately choose humanity I feel like putting him in with the angels who actually know what it's like to be human misses this part of his character.

[netherregionblog]

Mfs be like: “They’re my comfort ships ☺️”

The ‘comfort’ ships in question:

[lucianalight]

#the loki show#loki series#like I’m sorry but this scene is so fascinating to me#Like i could totally write it off as inconsistent and bad writing (which is probably the most logical assumption)#but where’s the fun in that?#there’s so much going on here#if we acknowledge Loki was 1. tortured by Thanos or his minions 2. Has been killed so many times he’s lost count#3. Was emotionally influenced by the Mind Stone but has no knowledge of that#4. Grew up on Asgard with Thor. Warrior race. (Potentially with knowledge of if not experience with berserkers)#5. That he doesn’t like hurting people and told the man across from him as much#6. That he’s demonstrated a disinclination to hurt people if there’s another way to solve a problem#7. That he’s shown concern for people who have given him no reason to care about them#8. That we can assume he’s typically more logical and self controlled than those he usually hangs out with#We have him here trying to comfort Mobius over slapping a guy for something that made Mobius upset#and what he brings up so casually as an example is a time where he was so mad that he did all the aforementioned silly stuff#He knows he killed at least Coulson. He’s probably aware other people died.#but that’s his closest example of getting so emotional that you just lose your sense and do something like slap a guy.#Then next in the conversation is him assuming that Mobius wouldn’t want to look at his life because it could be bad#It’s like the epitome of Loki saying “we don’t have time to unpack all that”#Like just this snippet could fuel a 10k Loki angsting and feeling guilty about the destruction he caused fanfic#Oh 9. Unaddressed baggage regarding being a jotunn and not wanting to be a monster and yet attacking earth#it’s like the sort of casualness where Luis in Antman listed off all this terrible stuff that happened but “I got the van!” 😃#like Ok… do you wanna talk about how you feel about that? No? Ok. tags via @the-stars-descend

LOKI "Breaking Brad"

[worstloki]

The idea that Thanos/the Other tortured Loki before sending him for the invasion in Avengers 1 is actually so funny. You... damaged your own goods and sent him out for a mission? You... hurt him so bad he’s stumbling and holding his back and expect him to win??

[mikasnazz]

Everything sings

[strangerinthelight]

Gotta love the fact that Mobius could watch Loki do something that would have gotten him into deep trouble on Asgard, and literally get locked in prison for and just be like. That’s my babygirl (:

[mrsblackruby]

Loki spent a year with thanos after attempting to end his life and came back wanting to completely take over Midgard and Marvel just never addresses what happened in that period of time to make Loki want to rule a place he never wanted to rule in the first place

Marvel just confirmed he was being mind controlled💀

Edit: I forgot to clarify. When I say "Ragnarok", I'm talking about the Norwegian Netflix Series. NOT Thor: Ragnarok (2017) from Marvel.

You really can't trust Marvel to handle anything re: Loki's identity or any traumas associated w/ it while Ragnarok does the opposite and gets minimal praise for it comparatively. It's such a shame. Like, I don't care how anyone personally feels about the character. Here are The Facts:

Marvel never adequately addressed that Loki was stolen from the Jotnar as a baby, and that he was adopted into a society that hated Jotnar - that Loki has a complex relationship with his identity because of this and that Odin played the part of a genocidal warmonger far before Loki ever did.

Ragnarok explicitly identified 'Loki's' parentage as a complicated part of his identity, and they continued with this throughout the show. His inability to fit neatly into the 'god' or 'jotnar' categories results him being both used and discarded by both. "Odin" is not clearly a benevolent god who is always justified.

Marvel Loki's identity as a Jotun is rarely brought up ever again. Whereas it's a constant point of conflict for 'Loki' in Ragnarok, and actually he doesn't hate being a Jotun because it FINALLY explains why he feels different from everyone else AND 'Thor' tries to protect him despite his difference.

Marvel has "fluid" written under sex/gender for Loki, and gets monumental praise for it. They put in a throw away line about hAs AnYonE EvER sEen A FeMAle LokI soUnds TerrIFying or whatever which completely ignores the fact that Loki's gender is fluid, defeating the purpose of that "fluid" line.

Also, they make their Loki fall in love with a female variant of himself rather than commit to showing either in queer relationships, after another throw away comment about them both being bisexual. Like, there's a running theme of telling and not showing in Marvel and I hate it.

Ragnarok's 'Loki' dresses however they want, and he's in "women's clothes" and wearing makeup by like the second episode. He internalizes that his feminine appearance and dress makes him a freak, but he does it anyway AND his family supports him! They encourage him to be himself!

Also! He explicitly flirts with men. He explicitly says he doesn't care about gender and sexuality, not that they aren't important to him but they're not a barrier to him. He shows a wide range of complicated feelings towards his identity that are actually explored and taken seriously.

Marvel will NEVER do that in their MCU.

[oceanicpoetry]

Loki's arrival: official concept art (by Andy Park)