#linguistics posting

[kinnbig]

I somehow never realised Perth’s name wasn’t actually Perth and now my mind is sort of blown. I get confused at how Thai names work anyway so I shouldn’t be surprised, but 🤯

fjckskc I mean Perth is his name, in the same way that Apo’s name is Apo and Nodt’s name is Nodt, but they’re just not their legal names.

and I can try and explain it! (or Perth explains it rlly well in this video lol)

basically! in Thailand, in most situations people are referred to by their used name (also called a nickname or a play name) rather than by their legal first name.

used names, like first names, are often given at birth, but unlike first names they’re not recorded on legal documentation such as birth certificates. last names are often long and aren’t used very often - it’s not uncommon for good friends to not know each other’s last names.

in general western naming convention, you would probably refer to someone by just their first name, or as ‘first name + last name’. someone might have a nickname that they prefer to their legal first name, and in these cases you might refer to them as ‘nickname + last name’.

but the convention for Thai names is to refer to people most of the time with either their used name, or as

‘used name + first name’

(with some exceptions, such as legal/business situations and in the credits of TV/movies).

sometimes you might also see someone’s ‘full name’ written or said as

‘used name + first name + last name’

eg mydramalist writes Mile Phakphum Romsaithong and Nodt Nutthasid Panyangarm.

but generally, you’d say/write either just someone’s used name, or ‘used name + first name’ in most contexts.

if you were talking about Apo Nattawin, for example - Nattawin is his first name, and Apo is his used name (his last name is Wattanagitiphat). because of TV crediting convention, he is credited as Nattawin Wattanagitiphat in the KinnPorsche credits - but he refers to himself as Apo Nattawin, and that is the name others use for him in most situations.

some more quick (random) examples from the KinnPorsche cast -

Tong Thanayut - ‘full name’ Tong Thanayut Thakoonauttaya, credited as Thanayut Thakoonauttaya - but referred to as Tong or Tong Thanayut

Barcode Tinnasit - ‘full name’ Barcode Tinnasit Isarapongporn, credited as Tinnasit Isarapongporn - but referred to as Barcode or Barcode Tinnasit

there are exceptions, obviously - although it’s more common to introduce yourself as ‘used name + first name’, Bible often introduces himself as Wichapas Sumettikul, then adds “or Bible” as an addendum (possibly because he had a more western upbringing) - but he still tends to be referred to as Bible Wichapas in most contexts.

Perth Nakhun is just one big exception lmao. Nakhun isn’t his first name or his last name - it’s a shortened version of Nakhuntanagarn, his mother’s last name. Perth Nakhun is more of a Thai stage name - by ‘typical’ conventions he would be referred to as Perth Stewart lol (and I have actually seen him referred to this way a few times in articles). interestingly (to me, at least), his ‘full name’ seems to be considered to be Perth Nakhun Screaigh, with Nakhun treated as his legal first name. so he gets credited as Nakhun Screaigh - even though Nakhun is not actually his first name. the TV credits follow the typical convention (Perth Nakhun Screaigh -> Nakhun Screaigh) rather than actually crediting with ‘first name + last name’. idk if this was Perth’s choice or just what happened but it’s interesting!

(Jeff Satur is also a stage name - though unlike with Perth, it seems to be considered his ‘full name’ and is also what is used in his TV credits)

anyway that got kind of long (and very colourful! I love colour coding!) but I hope it was somewhat helpful 🥰

[kwekstra]

Highlights from the conference room where they nominated contenders for Word of the Year 2023:

• They put Skibidi Toilet on the projector to explain what “skibidi” means.

• Baby Gronk was mentioned.

• We discussed the Rizzler.

• “Cunty” was nominated.

• “Enshittification” was suggested for EVERY category.

• “Blue Check” (like from Twitter) was briefly defined as “Someone who will not Shut The Fuck Up”

• The person writing notes briefly defined babygirl as “referencing [The Speaker]”. He is now being called babygirl in the linguist groupchats.

• MULTIPLE people raised their hand to say “I cannot stress this enough: ‘Babygirl’ refers to a GROWN MAN”

[thepandalion]

looking at a syntax tree with stars in my eyes: "awful. bad. mean to me. hate it here"

[bucephaly]

Theres moreeee, this is so so good.. it makes me emotional realizing that these kids are on the path to being fluent cherokee speakers and will be able to keep the language going.

This family is a part of the little cherokee seeds program, creating new first language Cherokee speakers by paying mothers to just bring their babies and craft and cook and speak cherokee with cherokee elders all day. There are only 1500 first language Cherokee speakers, most of them over 65. They also take donations if you want to help keep them going and doing the extremely important work they do!!

[alcedeerie]

🪄 lingwizard Follow

Magilinguistics and magiconlinguistics are so underrated. The idea that the specific language and syntax used to cast a spell can alter the efficiency and flow of a spell is amazing; it’s honestly infuriating how many people, including many mages, think Latin is the only valid conjuring language even though glossolalia is a WELL-DOCUMENTED PHENOMENON. I use many other languages in various spells and it’s really fun. Would recommend.

🪶 featherspells Follow

YOU CAN DO THAT? YOU CAN TRANSLATE LATIN SPELLS INTO A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE AND THEY’LL WORK!?! EVEN YOUR NATIVE LANGUAGE?!

🌱 gandalfbignaturals Follow

Yeah, welcome to the club! Using your native language isn’t recommended for summoning forces from other realms, though. The portals tend to collapse if you do that.

🗝️ keytomychest Follow

Wait wait wait, I just consulted my familiar about this, is magiconlinguistics modifying or inventing an entire language to optimize your magic? Because that sounds like something both extremely commendable and also batshit insane.

🌳 druid-ruin Follow

Yeah, that’s basically exactly what it is. We’re surprisingly pretty chill. I mean, except for that one time where someone hyper-optimized Taikureiden Suomen Kieli V5 to create the first, and most dangerous, known instance of the Everything-Damage Fireball spell, but we usually don’t talk about that.

🪄 lingwizard Follow

Ah, Taikureiden Suomen Kieli, the most absolutely broken magilang to ever exist. Go Finland, give us more fucked-up spells!

🪶 featherspells Follow

wait, the Everything-Damage Fireball is REAL? I thought you guys were joking.

🌳 druid-ruin Follow

We WERE joking. ONCE.

🔥 icastfireball Follow

on one hand, this is really cool and all, but on the other hand, i'm scared of what this can do. However, on the secret third hand, i kinda wanna modify a language to make demonic creatures physically sick upon hearing it, cause i wanna do a little trolling.

🪄 lingwizard Follow

Grand Mage Amara Lightningchain coming up with the idea for the Volapük Silananazunik experiments be like:

🔥 icastfireball Follow

hold on let me look something up

🔥 icastfireball Follow

wh. what the fuck

[haru-dipthong]

Gendered pronouns in Japanese vs English

In Revolutionary Girl Utena, the main character Utena is a girl (it says so in the title), but very conspicuously uses the masculine first person pronoun 僕 (boku) and dresses in (a variation of) the boys school uniform. Utena's gender, and gender in general, is a core theme of the work. And yet, I haven’t seen a single translation or analysis post where anyone considers using anything other than she/her for Utena when speaking of her in English. This made me wonder: how does one’s choice of pronouns in Japanese correspond to what one’s preferred pronouns would be in English?

There are 3 main differences between gendered pronouns in Japanese vs English

Japanese pronouns are used to refer to yourself (first-person), while English pronouns are used to refer to others (third-person)

The Japanese pronoun you use will differ based on context

Japanese pronouns signify more than just gender

Let’s look at each of these differences in turn and how these differences might lead to a seeming incongruity between one’s Japanese pronoun choice and one’s English pronoun choice (such as the 僕 (boku) vs she/her discrepancy with Utena).

Part 1: First-person vs third-person

While Japanese does technically have gendered third person pronouns （彼、彼女） they are used infrequently¹ and have much less cultural importance placed on them than English third person pronouns. Therefore, I would argue that the cultural equivalent of the gender-signifying third-person pronoun in English is the Japanese first-person pronoun. Much like English “pronouns in bio”, Japanese first-person pronoun choice is considered an expression of identity.

Japanese pronouns are used exclusively to refer to yourself, and therefore a speaker can change the pronoun they’re using for themself on a whim, sometimes mid-conversation, without it being much of an incident. Meanwhile in English, Marquis Bey argues that “Pronouns are like tiny vessels of verification that others are picking up what you are putting down” (2021). By having others use them and externally verify the internal truth of one’s gender, English pronouns, I believe, are seen as more truthful, less frivolous, than Japanese pronouns. They are seen as signifying an objective truth of the referent’s gender; if not objective then at least socially agreed-upon, while Japanese pronouns only signify how the subject feels at this particular moment — purely subjective.

Part 2: Context dependent pronoun use

Japanese speakers often don’t use just one pronoun. As you can see in the below chart, a young man using 俺 (ore) among friends might use 私 (watashi) or 自分 (jibun) when speaking to a teacher. This complicates the idea that these pronouns are gendered, because their gendering depends heavily on context. A man using 私 (watashi) to a teacher is gender-conforming, a man using 私 (watashi) while drinking with friends is gender-non-conforming. Again, this reinforces the relative instability of Japanese pronoun choice, and distances it from gender.

Part 3: Signifying more than gender

English pronouns signify little besides the gender of the antecedent. Because of this, pronouns in English have come to be a shorthand for expressing one’s own gender experience - they reflect an internal gendered truth. However, Japanese pronoun choice doesn’t reflect an “internal truth” of gender. It can signify multiple aspects of your self - gender, sexuality, personality.

For example, 僕 (boku) is used by gay men to communicate that they are bottoms, contrasted with the use of 俺 (ore) by tops. 僕 (boku) may also be used by softer, academic men and boys (in casual contexts - note that many men use 僕 (boku) in more formal contexts) as a personality signifier - maybe to communicate something as simplistic as “I’m not the kind of guy who’s into sports.” 俺 (ore) could be used by a butch lesbian who still strongly identifies as a woman, in order to signify sexuality and an assertive personality. 私 (watashi) may be used by people of all genders to convey professionalism. The list goes on.

I believe this is what’s happening with Utena - she is signifying her rebellion against traditional feminine gender roles with her use of 僕 (boku), but as part of this rebellion, she necessarily must still be a girl. Rather than saying “girls don’t use boku, so I’m not a girl”, her pronoun choice is saying “your conception of femininity is bullshit, girls can use boku too”.

Through translation, gendered assumptions need to be made, sometimes about real people. Remember that he/they, she/her, they/them are purely English linguistic constructs, and don’t correspond directly to one’s gender, just as they don’t correspond directly to the Japanese pronouns one might use. Imagine a scenario where you are translating a news story about a Japanese genderqueer person. The most ethical way to determine what pronouns they would prefer would be to get in contact with them and ask them, right? But what if they don’t speak English? Are you going to have to teach them English, and the nuances of English pronoun choice, before you can translate the piece? That would be ridiculous! It’s simply not a viable option². So you must make a gendered assumption based on all the factors - their Japanese pronoun use (context dependent!), their clothing, the way they present their body, their speech patterns, etc.

If translation is about rewriting the text as if it were originally in the target language, you must also rewrite the gender of those people and characters in the translation. The question you must ask yourself is: How does their gender presentation, which has been tailored to a Japanese-language understanding of gender, correspond to an equivalent English-language understanding of gender? This is an incredibly fraught decision, but nonetheless a necessary one. It’s an unsatisfying dilemma, and one that poignantly exposes the fickle, unstable, culture-dependent nature of gender.

Notes and References

¹ Usually in Japanese, speakers use the person’s name directly to address someone in second or third person

² And has colonialist undertones as a solution if you ask me - “You need to pick English pronouns! You ought to understand your gender through our language!”

Bey, Marquis— 2021 Re: [No Subject]—On Nonbinary Gender

Rose divider taken from this post

[kuroashims]

ֆօʍɛ ֆɨʍʟɨֆɦ քɦʀǟֆɛֆ ʏօʊ ʍɨɢɦȶ ʄɨռɖ ʊֆɛʄʊʟ ɨռ ʟɨʄɛ

hello : sul sul! / what's up : bloo bagoo? / how are you : cuh teekaloo? / i'm hungry : oh feebee lay / something in my way : choo waga choo choo! / you've got some nerve : firby nurbs / yes : yeibs / no : neib / oh my god : jamoo / woah this is fun : bum bum! / anyone home : nash na poof? / are you serious right now : ugh...groble! / you! yes you! go away : depwa spanewash depla blah! / excuse-me! get out of the way : blursh! meshaloob blursh! / i don't like you : boobasnot / no bullying : yabihorn! / i'm so bored : uhh shamoo ralla poo / happy birthday : humple borpnah! / this food is delicious : dis wompf es fredesche / thank you : vadish / nothing is impossible if you believe : benzi chibna looble bazebni gweb / cat : minicule / dog : woofum / baby is upset : aw crankus nooboo! / i'm pregnant : baba / i think you're hot : za woka genava / selfie : ongie! / i need a taxi : nicloske ga gloop / see you soon : geelfrob / i love you : por see gab lurv / live laugh love : leeb leefuh lurve / i'm on fire : wabadeebadoo! / goodbye : dag dag

[frenchiepal]

23.08.24 i am currently enjoying my exam/term paper-free life by working too much, cleaning to de-stress and finally getting back into reading (bought piranesi by susanna clarke yesterday, very excited). my first master's semester is slowly approaching and the courses all look promising. also, looking forward to autumn!

🎧 - the wolf by siamés

[glueeater]

a24 should just say “hey amazingphil. make a movie about anything. go wild.” and i think we would get an absolute masterpiece

[prokopetz]

"You don't see characters in classic literature telling people their pronouns" I mean, if we're gonna get technical, Captain Nemo only has pronouns.

[saucerfulofsins]

My friend made a super cool language guessing game that is now fully functional!

https://langle.uk/

The database has a lot of minority languages (especially in level 3) and if you don’t guess correctly, you get a hint based on linguistic relatedness.

[kinnbig]

I just started learning Thai so I’m interested. What is the difference between jing and jingjing? On your tags about favorite Thai words

oh! so in Thai, repeating an adjective turns it into an adverb.

in this case, jing is an adjective that means true or real or honest, and jingjing is an adverb that means really, trully, honestly. they're just my favourite Thai words because I like the way they sound lol.

my other favourite is ning, which doesn't have a perfect English translation but that you might recognise from My Engineer. it means cool as in (a person who is) cold, distant, or aloof, or alternatively calm and self-controlled. it's often used sarcastically when describing other people. ningning is an adverb that means something like carefully or calmly - you hear people saying "ningning!" to tell someone to calm down or take more care. kind of like "chill out!" in English lol. I like these because their English translations are so interesting! and because of RamKing and ai'Ning, obviously.

[kwekstra]

TL;DR: We're looking for English-speaking neopronoun users (aged 18+) to participate in a paid linguistics study.

Hello!

Professor Kirby Conrod from Swarthmore College is recruiting participants for a paid interview study (in-person in Philly or on zoom). Anyone who uses neopronouns for themself, is 18 or older, and is fluent in English is welcome to participate. The study will consist of a casual interview between you and a researcher, a similar interview with a friend of yours, and an exit survey for each of you. Each will receive $15 as compensation for their time.

If you're interested in participating, please fill out this form: (https://forms.gle/YajpkjxGYiwL7RLF6). Filling out this form does not require you to participate; it's just an expression of interest.

Even on Tumblr, neopronoun use is relatively uncommon, so it would be very helpful if folks could reblog this post to help it reach as many neopronoun users as possible.

[thepandalion]

cant read fucking words anymore

once more in "I hate syntax" I straight up. cant read. because my brain reads a sentence and immediately generates a syntax tree for it. for every sentence I read. I stopped reading what I write because the moment I start reading it back it becomes incomprehensible by way of fucking trees

[official-linguistics-post]

Sorry you’re still fighting the good fight vis a vis “chat isn’t a pronoun.” I had a mini epiphany to get closer to wrapping my head around it, so I figured I’d share and you can correct me if I’m wrong.

Like. You talk to chat. You talk to your bro. And you’ll say “chat, which of these games should I play?” But if it was a pronoun that would just be…. Really weird? Like if I’m talking to someone I don’t use their pronoun I use their name or something like “bro”.

I know that the same collection of sounds/letters could be two separate types of words (like dust the noun and dust the verb) but I’m assuming that’s not what’s happening here.

Anyway love your blog! I wish it could just be fun linguistics stuff instead of having to constantly fight lies but here we are.

yeah if i had to boil it down VERY simply i guess i could go with:

a pronoun replaces a noun. what noun is "chat" replacing?

(the answer is none, because chat IS the noun.)

[ironcladrhombus]

I have some very specific thoughts about the Wisdom Saga to share:

On the very first listen I was like "hm idk about this, it's different and idk how I feel about it yet" bc quite frankly it's not just new, it's modern. The addition of video game mechanics in Little Wolf, the use of the words "tramp" and "champ" in Legendary, "Splendid" in We'll be Fine- it's all closer to the way we speak than Odysseus.

But here's why I think this choice is so interesting; there was a study I read about people who leave their home country and live somewhere that doesn't speak their home language. The results showed that for those people, their language and vocabulary is sort of stuck in the time that they left. They don't develop variations, or the new slang that gets incorporated, and so people who move home after many years away are then seen as speaking sort of archaically.

This means that Odysseus for the past TWENTY YEARS has only had the same linguistic patterns between him and his men, whereas Telemachus has been developing his language along with his country his whole life. Twenty years is a long time, especially where technology and language is concerned (video game mechanics and "that is so sick!") which is why it felt so different on the first listen.