#kataang fandom do better

[ididgettomeetyou]

can we not steal someones art just to make fun just cause it makes you uncomfortable? this doesn't give the kataang fandom a good name it just makes this account look like assholes .. like you can hate it all want but this is just needelssly mean for no reason ya think avatar aang would approve? Some of ya really are the two headed viper he referenced .. im honestly disgusted with this behaivor.. .. stealing art is never okay. and im going to call otu bullshit when i see it cause im not mindlessly loyal just cause we ship the same ship.. this is just toxic behaivor .. dailykataang is giving off toxic vibes i aint here for cause who carese if someone has an au of zutara wit aint hurting you

i edited the pic cause i aint a art thief/i dont want people making fun of the art here i think its just a mean thing to do

[dragonfoxandfound]

I would respect Zutara shippers more if they stopped whining about canon.

No alt shipper wants Bryke's crusty ass canon, not even Zutara shippers. Not after we all saw how they lobotomized Kataang - well, mostly Katara - in those comics.

And those retcons? They make me want to retch. How good is canon if you need to rewrite history to make people like it?

Your canon isn't nearly as coveted as you think so, we're begging you, please keep it. Because let's be real, you had no intentions of respecting anyone in the first place.

[longing-for-rain]

The fact that Katara and Aang stopped having kids after an airbender was born certainly has some…implications

[agnisleftpec]

the fun thing about being a nonshipper who's forcibly desensitized themself to romance so they can actually survive in fandom spaces is i am truly free. nothing can stop me. evryone is dating everyone and no one at once. and i get so much gorgeous art and fanfic

[katarasmomsnecklace]

I wanna talk about all my fav ATLA ships cuz being a multishipper can suck sometimes

I wanna look at ship tags and not see hate for another ship in them

SPREAD THE LOVE

KatAang: Classic friends to lovers. Couples who commit ecoterrorism together stay together

TAang: She was a punk He did ballet what more can I say. But like actually they're so fun to analyze with what we have in canon, they legit give soulmate vibes.

ZuTara: SHOT THROUGH THE HEART another fun one to analyze, opposites attract/enemies to lovers it's a good time

KaToph: They're defined by overcoming their "weaknesses" Katara fought for her right to be a master despite her gender and became one of the most powerful benders because of her will to fight. Toph literally invented a whole new bending style BECAUSE of her blindness. Love them

MaiLee: Bad bitches deserve bad bitches, we love a sunshine and sunshine protector. Their fighting styles compliment each other as do their personalities

MaiKo: 'I love Zuko more than I fear you" will never not be the hardest line in the show. *doesn't care she got pickles* "HOW FUCKING DARE YOU SHE SAID NO PICKLES"

Ty Luki: I just want Suki to show TyLee the ropes of being a kyoshi warrior. They have so much they can teach each other also if you like the Airbender! TyLee headcanon there's something poetic about her unlocking her powers with kyoshi's fans

YueTara: MOON AND OCEAN NEED I SAY MORE

ZUe (I actually don't know their ship name) we in rare pair hell but SUN AND MOON NEED I SAY MORE also applies to Yue x Azula you guys come up with the coolest scenarios that put either of the fire siblings in the north pole, this fandom is so creative

ZuKKi: Let Sokka pull lol but actually a King and His Guard and King and his Ambassador, it's like Sukka is great but make it better

Mai TyLee and Suki should be a bigger ship cuz I swear I'm the only one that sees it (help me name them)

Tell me about your favorite ATLA ships I freaking love these characters and I love when they love each other

[did-we-imagine]

That's why I really don't understand why people fight because of ships.

Like look at us multi-shippers. 🤡 We'll roll with almost anything as long as it's quality content. The few that really cross red lines for me (TW : incest/pedophilia), I just ignore.

I've honestly come across some amazing fan material thanks to this open-mindedness. 😅

Tmw people complain to you about what ships you can and cannot ship because it's problematic or whatnot like...?

[sneezypeasy]

Why I Deliberately Avoided the "Colonizer" Argument in my Zutara Thesis - and Why I'll Continue to Avoid it Forever

This is a question that occasionally comes up under my Zutara video essay, because somehow in 2 hours worth of content I still didn't manage to address everything (lol.) But this argument specifically is one I made a point of avoiding entirely, and there are some slightly complicated reasons behind that. I figure I'll write them all out here.

From a surface-level perspective, Zuko's whole arc, his raison d'etre, is to be a de-colonizer. Zuko's redemption arc is kinda all about being a de-colonizer, and his redemption arc is probably like the most talked about plot point of ATLA, so from a basic media literacy standpoint, the whole argument is unsound in the first place, and on that basis alone I find it childish to even entertain as an argument worth engaging with, to be honest.

(At least one person in my comments pointed out that if any ship's "political implications" are problematic in some way, it really ought to be Maiko, as Mai herself is never shown or suggested to be a strong candidate for being a de-colonizing co-ruler alongside Zuko. If anything her attitudes towards lording over servants/underlings would make her… a less than suitable choice for this role, but I digress.)

But the reason I avoided rebutting this particular argument in my video goes deeper than that. From what I've observed of fandom discourse, I find that the colonizer argument is usually an attempt to smear the ship as "problematic" - i.e., this ship is an immoral dynamic, which would make it problematic to depict as canon (and by extension, if you ship it regardless, you're probably problematic yourself.)

And here is where I end up taking a stand that differentiates me from the more authoritarian sectors of fandom.

I'm not here to be the fandom morality police. When it comes to lit crit, I'm really just here to talk about good vs. bad writing. (And when I say "good", I mean structurally sound, thematically cohesive, etc; works that are well-written - I don't mean works that are morally virtuous. More on this in a minute.) So the whole colonizer angle isn't something I'm interested in discussing, for the same reason that I actually avoided discussing Katara "mothering" Aang or the "problematic" aspects of the Kataang ship (such as how he kissed her twice without her consent). My whole entire sections on "Kataang bad" or "Maiko bad" in my 2 hour video was specifically, "how are they written in a way that did a disservice to the story", and "how making them false leads would have created valuable meaning". I deliberately avoided making an argument that consisted purely of, "here's how Kataang/Maiko toxic and Zutara wholesome, hence Zutara superiority, the end".

Why am I not willing to be the fandom morality police? Two reasons:

I don't really have a refined take on these subjects anyway. Unless a piece of literature or art happens to touch on a particular issue that resonates with me personally, the moral value of art is something that doesn't usually spark my interest, so I rarely have much to say on it to begin with. On the whole "colonizer ship" subject specifically, other people who have more passion and knowledge than me on the topic can (and have) put their arguments into words far better than I ever could. I'm more than happy to defer to their take(s), because honestly, they can do these subjects justice in a way I can't. Passing the mic over to someone else is the most responsible thing I can do here, lol. But more importantly:

I reject the conflation of literary merit with moral virtue. It is my opinion that a good story well-told is not always, and does not have to be, a story free from moral vices/questionable themes. In my opinion, there are good problematic stories and bad "pure" stories and literally everything in between. To go one step further, I believe that there are ways that a romance can come off "icky", and then there are ways that it might actually be bad for the story, and meming/shitposting aside, the fact that these two things don't always neatly align is not only a truth I recognise about art but also one of those truths that makes art incredibly interesting to me! So on the one hand, I don't think it is either fair or accurate to conflate literary "goodness" with moral "goodness". On a more serious note, I not only find this type of conflation unfair/inaccurate, I also find it potentially dangerous - and this is why I am really critical of this mindset beyond just disagreeing with it factually. What I see is that people who espouse this rhetoric tend to encourage (or even personally engage in) wilful blindness one way or the other, because ultimately, viewing art through these lens ends up boxing all art into either "morally permissible" or "morally impermissible" categories, and shames anyone enjoying art in the "morally impermissible" box. Unfortunately, I see a lot of people responding to this by A) making excuses for art that they guiltily love despite its problematic elements and/or B) denying the value of any art that they are unable to defend as free from moral wickedness.

Now, I'm not saying that media shouldn't be critiqued on its moral virtue. I actually think morally critiquing art has its place, and assuming it's being done in good faith, it absolutely should be done, and probably even more often than it is now.

Because here's the truth: Sometimes, a story can be really good. Sometimes, you can have a genuinely amazing story with well developed characters and powerful themes that resonate deeply with anyone who reads it. Sometimes, a story can be all of these things - and still be problematic.*

(Or, sometimes a story can be all of those things, and still be written by a problematic author.)

That's why I say, when people conflate moral art with good art, they become blind to the possibility that the art they like being potentially immoral (or vice versa). If only "bad art" is immoral, how can the art that tells the story hitting all the right beats and with perfect rhythm and emotional depth, be ever problematic?

(And how can the art I love, be ever problematic?)

This is why I reject the idea that literary merit = moral virtue (or vice versa) - because I do care about holding art accountable. Even the art that is "good art". Actually, especially the art that is "good art". Especially the art that is well loved and respected and appreciated. The failure to distinguish literary critique from moral critique bothers me on a personal level because I think that conflating the two results in the detriment of both - the latter being the most concerning to me, actually.

So while I respect the inherent value of moral criticism, I'm really not a fan of any argument that presents moral criticism as equivalent to literary criticism, and I will call that out when I see it. And from what I've observed, a lot of the "but Zutara is a colonizer ship" tries to do exactly that, which is why I find it a dishonest and frankly harmful media analysis framework to begin with.

But even when it is done in good faith, moral criticism of art is also just something I personally am neither interested nor good at talking about, and I prefer to talk about the things that I am interested and good at talking about.

(And some people are genuinely good at tackling the moral side of things! I mean, I for one really enjoyed Lindsay Ellis's take on Rent contextualising it within the broader political landscape at the time to show how it's not the progressive queer story it might otherwise appear to be. Moral critique has value, and has its place, and there are definitely circumstances where it can lead to societal progress. Just because I'm not personally interested in addressing it doesn't mean nobody else can do it let alone that nobody else should do it, but also, just because it can and should be done, doesn't mean that it's the only "one true way" to approach lit crit by anyone ever. You know, sometimes... two things… can be true… at once?)

Anyway, if anyone reading this far has recognised that this is basically a variant of the proship vs. antiship debate, you're right, it is. And on that note, I'm just going to leave some links here. I've said about as much as I'm willing/able to say on this subject, but in case anyone is interested in delving deeper into the philosophy behind my convictions, including why I believe leftist authoritarian rhetoric is harmful, and why the whole "but it would be problematic in real life" is an anti-ship argument that doesn't always hold up to scrutiny, I highly recommend these posts/threads:

In general this blog is pretty solid; I agree with almost all of their takes - though they focus more specifically on fanfic/fanart than mainstream media, and I think quite a lot of their arguments are at least somewhat appropriate to extrapolate to mainstream media as well.

I also strongly recommend Bob Altemeyer's book "The Authoritarians" which the author, a verified giga chad, actually made free to download as a pdf, here. His work focuses primarily on right-wing authoritarians, but a lot of his research and conclusions are, you guessed it, applicable to left-wing authoritarians also.

And if you're an anti yourself, welp, you won't find support from me here. This is not an anti-ship safe space, sorrynotsorry 👆

In conclusion, honestly any "but Zutara is problematic" argument is one I'm likely to consider unsound to begin with, let alone the "Zutara is a colonizer ship" argument - but even if it wasn't, it's not something I'm interested in discussing, even if I recognise there are contexts where these discussions have value. I resent the idea that just because I have refined opinions on one aspect of a discussion means I must have (and be willing to preach) refined opinions on all aspects of said discussion. (I don't mean to sound reproachful here - actually the vast majority of the comments I get on my video/tumblr are really sweet and respectful, but I do get a handful of silly comments here and there and I'm at the point where I do feel like this is something worth saying.) Anyway, I'm quite happy to defer to other analysts who have the passion and knowledge to give complicated topics the justice they deserve. All I request is that care is taken not to conflate literary criticism with moral criticism to the detriment of both - and I think it's important to acknowledge when that is indeed happening. And respectfully, don't expect me to give my own take on the matter when other people are already willing and able to put their thoughts into words so much better than me. Peace ✌

*P.S. This works for real life too, by the way. There are people out there who are genuinely not only charming and likeable, but also generous, charitable and warm to the vast majority of the people they know. They may also be amazing at their work, and if they have a job that involves saving lives like firefighting or surgery or w.e, they may even be the reason dozens of people are still alive today. They may honestly do a lot of things you'd have to concede are "good" deeds.

They may be all of these things, and still be someone's abuser. 🙃

Two things can be true at once. It's important never to forget that.

[crienselt]

So a few days ago I saw someone (elsewhere) questioning Zutara fans’ excitement about the scarf scene. It wasn't a mean comment, more general curiosity. And well, I didn't have time to get my thoughts out then. But they haven't gone away, so I'm getting them out here:

Here’s what everyone need to understand about Zutara shippers. We were baited baaaad during the initial run of the show–from the magazines to the shorts to the trailers and how they were cut. And Zuko and Katara’s relationship on the show certainly underwent a lot of development and featured objectively emotional–if not overtly romantic–moments between the two. We were well fed, and we had reason to hope. Right up to the end, we had reason to hope.

The shipping wars were the shipping wars, of course, with all the usual tensions; there are always going to be overzealous fans of each (and any) pairing willing to get toxic. Generally, I think Kataang fans were always jealous of Zutara’s popularity and Zutara fans, post finale, were jealous of Kataang’s, well, canon status. But really it operated much the same as any other large fandom’s shipping wars.

And then came Bryke and the panel where they showed and mocked Zutara fan art, some of which had been created by teens if not straight up children. Then came their, “Come on, kids! It was never going to work. Zutara is just dark and intriguing.”* And the pièce de résistance, their telling Zutara shippers (specifically girls/women) that they were doomed to have failed romantic relationships. Like, what? The thing with the art was arguably cruel, and the rest of it was oh, so condescending. Just all around not well done. 

The after effect was that Zutara went from being simply a fanon pairing to a wrong pairing. The ATLA fandom at large became a far more hostile place for Zutara fans, who were now more commonly deemed delusional and viewed as lesser fans. The vitriol only got worse when the show came to Netfilx and the next wave of antis rolled up with their co-opting of legitimate socio-political terms to paint Zutara not just as wrong but morally corrupt if not evil. It’s all very puritanical.**

So Zutara fans need to be reminded that we weren’t delusional, and we aren’t alone. It’s why it means so much to know that Dante Basco and Mae Whitman shipped their characters. And that so many other VAs came out as Zutara supporters too: Jack De Sena, Michaela Jill Murphy, Grey DeLisle, Janet Varney--even the cabbage man. For it to be revealed that it was discussed in the writers room; that the writers fought over it; that it WAS a canon possibility. (And that writers Joshua Hamilton and John O’Bryan are perfectly comfortable admitting their preference for Zutara.) To know that the Elizabeth Welch Ehasz described Zuko and Katara as an “Avatar-style Mr. and Mrs. Smith,” in the script for The Southern Raiders, and used the phrase “Zutara-feuling synchronicity and cooperation” to describe their action sequences. To see Giancarlo Volpe, a Kataanger, admit Zutara might been the better pairing in retrospect and choose a quiet scene between them (to see their “chemistry”) as what he’d most look forward to in the live action adaptation. It’s why we cling to the artwork done by Korean animation director. We aren’t delusional. We aren’t alone.

But try telling that to the general fandom, right? Most are ignorant of a lot of this, particularly Hamilton and O’Bryan’s revelations re: the writers room. A lot of Zutara fans don't even seem to know. But being baited by Netflix on their official accounts? Oh, people see that. And we are reminded in a big way that we aren't delusional and we aren't alone. And everyone else has to remember it too.

So, of course, we're having fun clowning over the scarf scene. And I think most Zutara fans know we are clowning. I don't think most expect to get canon Zutara in live action because of one little scene or the fact that their Netflix icons are facing each other. (I headcanon that that was totally the doing of Zutara shipper on staff, though, lol. Because there are a lot of us, and we are everywhere.)

And this is okay. Zutara has been doing just fine as a fanon ship. Meanwhile, NATLA might actually do Kataang justice. It always worked better as a future ship. (Really all the pairings do. But I especially don't ever need to see another 12 year old kissing let alone making out, in animation or live action, ever again.) There's a reason Padme and Anakin don't get together in Phantom Menace, after all. Also, there's always the chance they could give us Dante's or Mae's headcanon of them basically suppressing their feelings and choosing duty over love/right person-wrong time. And the odds of getting some more moments to clown over are high enough. 

Anyway, TLDR: Zutara has been made to feel like an out-of-nowhere crack ship and the live action crumbs remind us that it is not. And this is at least partially why we are enjoying it. (Because, also, it's just fun!)

*Side tangent: I’ve never gotten this dark and intriguing comment. Even during Season 1, the height of the capture fic era, Zutara was always a ship fundamentally about hope, predicated on Zuko's redemption. (Back in the day, there were also plenty of antis arguing that there was no way Zuko would ever be one of the gaang.) And they say “intriguing” like it’s a bad thing? Are we not supposed to be interested in the relationships of their characters???

**There have been some very good think pieces written lately on late stage capitalism and consumption as morality. Worth googling.

[atla-confessions]

Hello, are you looking for a new atla ship? Sick of the ship wars? Consider with me, if you will, joining the zukaang fandom.

Do you like grump/sunshine trope? "I don't know why but I thought this thing would be a lot faster." "Appa's right Zuko, in our group, typically we start out our missions with a more upbeat attitude." "I can't believe this." - literally them.

Do you like the yin/yang trope? Zuko's flaw is literally his aggressive approach to his problems which is foiled by Aang's flaw of passive approach to his problems. They are the definition of yin and yang.

Do you like forbidden love? Even beyond the whole "Avatar and Firelord" thing, they both have to have bio children. They are tragic as hell if you want them to be.

Do you like excessive parallels and reading way too much into symbolism? The writers spent way too much effort in building the parallels between these two and there's always more to say about them.

Do you like shared trauma and similar backstories? They literally had an entire episode dedicated to showing how their backstories mirror eachother.

Do you like (lovingly) making jokes at Zuko's expense? What's better to tease him about than his absolute obsession with the avatar.

Do you like parallels to past lives? Zukaang has simularities with Sozin-Roku and Oma-Shu and there's even Kuzon.

Do you like m/m but never felt much connection for zukka? Zukaang is full of connection.

Do you like being canon but kataang just didn't do it for you? Zuko is literally quoted as being the person closest to Aang in his life and there's an official picture of them holding hands as adults and the culmination of the zukaang hug is iconic just like the kataang kiss. They're like an inch away from being canon.

Do you like enemies to lovers but zutara never caught your eye? Their inevitable friendship was built since book one when Aang asked if they could be friends.

Are you sick of antis? Zukaang has two (2) whole anti arguments: the age gap which is nothing between adults, and the idea that Aang is related to Zuko bc Roku was his great grandfather which doesn't make sense unless you consider Korra and Katara to be married. Beyond that people don't care.

Do you prefer small but active ship fandoms to the big name ship fandoms? Zukaang is right on the border, big enough to be plenty active but small enough to be free of drama and full of likeminded people.

Like talking about your ships but rather do it through group chats instead of tumblr? We have an active discord server.

If any of this appeals to you, feel free to join us, we'd love to have you! :D

X

[charliewrites99]

Not liking a ship and explaining why you don't like it isn't toxic for fuck's sake.

Hoping your ship "wins" also isn't toxic.

We call every disagreement in the fandom shipping war. And even if it is so FUCKING WHAT??!!

There are always going to be sides taken. Fighting about what is better. And I am so sick of the whole "multishipping exists!!"

Yes WE KNOW!!

But a lot of people can't do it.

I hate when fandoms go too far with threats and insults and putting eachother down too. I really do. I can't stand when people badger creators and actors about their prefered side.

But if someone hates the ship and explains why or is pissed that it went canon and then rants in their own tag or on twitter whatever, that is not inherently toxic!

Almost everyone gets caught in a shipping war from time to time.

I try to stay away from it, but sometimes I slip.

I was a BIG sylkie hater in season 1 of Loki. There were trenches dug.

Not Sylvie hater SYLKIE hater. You are allowed to hate a ship down to your very core. It does not make you toxic.

Toxic would be going out of your way to attack people. Toxic is saying everyone who ships something is a horrible person because xyz.

People think ship war they think zutara vs kataang.

Most "ship wars" are barely ship squabbles.

[zvtara-was-never-canon]

I've been in the fandom for a while. I personally think Kataang getting together after the EIP kiss without any resolution wasn't a good writing choice. I think many women HAVE been in a situation where they've been kissed like that, so they automatically dislike it.

I get why people would be turned off from Kataang after the EIP kiss. What I absolutely don't get is how people think Zuko is a better romantic partner. Did they see how Zuko treated Mai in The Beach?

That's what baffles me. Shippers will say Aang's entitlement in kissing Katara without her consent turned them off Kataang. I can understand that. But the same Zutara shippers all laud Zuko as a amazing bf, despite the fact that he:

accused Mai of cheating without any evidence

Accuses Mai of being passionless, hurting her

punches a guy and destroys his property for no reason

tells Mai that his abuse is more important than her feelings

Snidely tells Ma, "where's your new bf"

Never apologises to her for acting that way

Why is there such a cognitive dissonance, do you think? Shouldn't these shippers be turned off Zuko as a bf? Even in the last episode, Zuko starts shooting flames at Aang to "teach him a lesson", clearly showing he still wants to solve his problems with violence.

Why do the same shippers (mostly women) who hate Aang for EIP, love Zuko?

Okay, a few corrections:

1 - Aang didn't kiss Katara out of entitlement. He misjudged the moment. They were talking about feelings and Katara said both "I don't see you as just a friend" and "I don't think we should date right now." Aang, a 12-year-old, was confused by that, thought he could make things clearer by kissing her since they've both enjoyed the two previous times they kissed. That was a really bad move, upset Katara, and he kicked himself for it. Would an apology be nice? Yes. Was this a forced conflict for cheap drama? Yes. But it's not the same as Aang grabbing Katara and forcing a kiss on her while she's struggling to get away from him and telling him "NO" loud and clear.

2 - While Mai did nothing wrong and looked bored as hell whenever that guy came up to her, he WAS into her and disregarding the fact that she had a boyfriend. That's a dick move, and even though Zuko should not have escalated things to physical violence, nor blamed his girlfriend, he had every right to be mad at that guy.

3 - Zuko absolutely did NOT say that his abuse was more important than Mai's feelings. They're arguing about his behavior and how he's more irritable and impatient than usual, to which Zuko reminds her of the obvious fact that it's kinda hard to NOT be like that every now and then considering what he went through - to which Mai reminds him that it being understandable doesn't make it okay, and Zuko eventually admits that the REAL source of his anger is the fact that he no longer knows what right and wrong mean to him anymore and that's stressing him the fuck out. VERY different from "My life sucked, I get to make it your problem"

4 - While Zuko did not apologize for how he acted, we see in the following episodes that he is being a good boyfriend to Mai and he explicitly tells the Gaang that he doesn't want to keep relying on anger anymore. Apologies are nice and can be very important, but an actual change in behavior is what makes it mean anything.

5 - I do feel that the moment of Zuko attacking the Gaang in the finale to "make them take the war seriously" was very forced, but even if I were to take it as just Zuko being Zuko - by the end of the story he's clearly happy that Aang managed to solve things without violence, is proud of him for it, and even says that he believes OZAI could maybe change into a better person someday. If that isn't growth I don't know what is.

As for your actual question: They don't actually hate Aang and love Zuko for anything they did/did not do. They just think Zuko is hot, thought the show would pander to them with zutara, and when it didnt they lashed out and used pseudo-feminist points to go "Aang bad, Zuko good" to cover up a childish tantrum.

[mal3vol3nt]

This is kinda a long read. But I wanna ask your opinion on this. I see this one post saying Zutara is a purely female fantasy and that’s why so many people hate it. Basically saying it was made for girls, by girls, it has everything a girl wants in a relationship and “When people attack the idea of Zutara, this is fundamentally what they're attacking-women and girls wanting better for themselves in a relationship.”

Now I am just a man. But I think this argument especially the latter part is such a reach and a cope. I don’t see how shipping a fanon ship is some big feminist thing. There are women I know who love Kataang (and if you ask me most of what they’re describing Zutara is actually Kataang in disguise) and there are some guys who like Zutara (which is perfectly fine as long as you don’t write a slave-fic about it like this one guy.

Call me insensitive, but it seems like this guy has some weird victim complex.

Here’s the link BTW:

https://www.tumblr.com/longing-for-rain/753424994905800704/this-isnt-a-question-about-whether-or-not-zutara?source=share

i agree with you anon. i think it’s very silly that these people think a fandom ship is the peak of activism/feminism. such a claim, dare i say, reeks of white feminism, especially when you take into account that the ship they’re claiming is “so feminist” is a relationship between a canonical colonizer and a victim of genocide

the things the op of that zutara post listed are all very westernized “issues” that they claim shipping zutara is supposedly fighting against while also praising western standards, such as saying that zutara is for the girls who want to be with a man they’re attracted to, directly saying that aang is unattractive because he doesn’t fit western beauty standards whereas zuko does. as well as saying zutara is for the girls who want passion in their relationships, directly saying that zuko’s hot-headedness and western masculine qualities are hotter than aang’s pacifism and him being a monk. this claim is also pretty on par with how zutaras sexualize the relationship between zuko and katara, which i don’t even want to get into for obvious reasons. needless to say, i think all of these claims are very very stupid and so obviously come from someone who gravitates towards the racism of the show. sorry not sorry

these claims also come from someone who twists aang’s character so that they feel more justified in hating him, and who twist katara and zuko’s characters so their ship works better. because at no point in the show does it ever feel like katara is changing herself to be with aang, as if she would ever do that (i can tell this is a southern raiders argument—i swear these people misread and latch onto everything). at no point in the show does it ever feel like katara is unattracted to aang, especially since she’s the one who initiates both the first and the last kiss between them, is constantly touching him, and gives him kisses on the cheek in a way she doesn’t do with any one else (she also audibly gasps when she first sees his tattoos in episode 1, which could be read as just her being shocked because she’s never seen airbender tattoos before, but considering the fact her crush on him develops quickly by the beginning of book 2 and she marries him, i wouldn’t be surprised if she also liked the way they looked). all claims that fall back on katara forcing herself to be with aang for whatever reason are projection because 1) katara would never do that. she is not the kind of girl to force herself into any position that doesn’t make her happy, and we see her actively set boundaries with aang in canon, so she is obviously comfortable making her wants known, and 2) katara clearly doesn’t see things through the same lens as her so-called fans. just because you had a crush on zuko doesn’t mean that katara should too, and just because aang isn’t your type doesn’t mean he can’t be her type. yall are projecting onto her

the whole “zutara is for the girls” and “kataang is the male gaze” is so stupid because no, that’s not how that shit works and is a take that is so very american/western that i fail to take it seriously. and yes, i know atla is a western-created show with a western-intended audience, but the characters in the show aren’t and i feel it’s important to acknowledge that

now, i’m a girl (or a woman i should say, 19 years old lmao). and i live in a very patriarchal society and have dealt with sexist standards being forced onto me from my latino culture and family my whole life. it didn’t, however, take long for me to realize that i was unhappy with that way of life and have actively detached myself from it, instead gravitating towards fighting for and recognizing my freedom to choose. this is a freedom i believe all women should have, and i have dedicated myself to learning of the injustices women go through all over the world and do my best to fight against them from where i live. i detest the patriarchy and all things created that demean women or force them into any one role. i am also a lesbian who hardly ever thinks of men lmao. yet miraculously, i am a kataang shipper. according to these zutara stans, im a misogynist who prioritizes male pleasure and happiness. yet from what i know of myself, that’s not at all true. i couldn’t give less of a fuck about patriarchal standards and actively avoid them in the media i consume as much as i can. but i think kataang is cute and i turn away from the thought of zutara, so either one of two things are true:

kataang is for the girls and zutara is the male-gaze

or fictional character shipping has fuck all to do with activism and the kind of person you are in real life

i’m gonna go out on a limb and say number 2 is correct. whether you’re a zutara shipper or a kataang shipper, i don’t think that’s an instant tell of the kind of person you are in your real life. it’s not an actual tell of what you value and yall look ridiculous trying to paint one ship as better than the other on an innate moral level

at the end of the day, this is fandom shipping. you can be a horrible person who engages in shipping content and still be a horrible person at the end of the day regardless of which ship suits your fancy. cause it doesn’t fucking matter. neither of the ships are morally superior to the other in any way that has importance in the real world. yall need to get offline i swear

now personally, i think kataang is an infinitely better ship than zutara for many reasons that i have discussed before, so yall will never catch me saying kataang and zutara are equal in any other context but this one lmao

also saying any colonizer x colonized ship is superior will never be taken seriously by me. you can enjoy those kind of ships all you want, but they’ll never be my cup of tea and that doesn’t make me or anyone else anti-feminist or whatever the fuck insult zks throw out. i just prefer my ships to be between people who haven’t wiped out the other person’s race

[longing-for-rain]

Do you think that a lot of the kataang fans behavior has to do with the rise of puriteens online

Yes, I think it's definitely related to a lot of new fans' behavior.

I do want to say though, I really don't love the way "puriteens" are dunked on at times, because I think it is important to acknowledge the reason why this sentiment is so common. These kids are younger gen Z and older gen alpha kids that were raised in the age of social media. Speaking from experience a Zillenniel, I saw the beginnings of this when I was younger and just getting online.

Kids (especially girls, who make up the majority demographic of fandoms) are exposed to some pretty horrific things online from a young age. We are bombarded with sexual content, we are sexualized from a young age, we see ourselves talked about in dehumanizing ways, and when we get upset, we, even as children, are blamed for not "curating our experience" despite it being an open secret that this kind of content/sentiment pretty much unavoidable now. The people spreading it just don't want accountability. So I understand where they're coming from, I really do. They are tired of that kind of treatment, but they lack the maturity to understand the nuance, and that there is no black-and-white solution. There is space to talk about the problems in our culture without completely shutting down discussion of anything negative.

That being said, it's incredibly frustrating when they take it to extremes, especially when they're no longer teens and still act this way into adulthood. No, you can't hide from the world forever and pretend like problems don't exist. If you ignore it, it won't go away.

I see the sentiment a lot among the new wave of kataang fans (and similar groups of fans of other media) that "why does everyone hate the PURE couple" and "they are so sweet and innocent why do you want everything to be DARK instead?" It shows the harm in these kinds of mindsets, because while yes, kataang does have this cutesy aesthetic, it is very much a flawed relationship with challenges that both the show and fans sweep under the rug to maintain the illusion of its purity and cinnamon-roll-ness. The fans want a relationship devoid of conflict, so they pretend like the conflict that is already there and would arise in the relationship simply doesn't exist.

Meanwhile Zutara has an edgier aesthetic to it (despite actually being a sweet and wholesome relationship itself but that's another conversation) and comes with obvious challenges (like the characters beginning their story as enemies), but part of the beauty in that is the way the fans have interrogated those challenges and explored them in a meaningful way. Obviously not all fan content does this, but as someone who has enjoyed Zutara for...how long now? Almost 15 years? ...I generally see a very thoughtful approach to how both characters develop a strong relationship based on respect and understanding. Which is exactly what the show did with Zuko's arc. It's why he's such a loved character; yes, he is imperfect and flawed, but he confronted those flaws meaningfully and became a better person for it. It's what makes his story so memorable and inspiring. Zutara fans just apply the same logic to Zutara, and it's why the relationship is so memorable for us.

So yeah. I can understand where these kids are coming from, but they've got to grow up and recognize that they're only becoming their own worst enemies at this point.

[cleverheroine]

I know I already made a post about this, laughing at how absurd it was, but now I want to treat it with a little more gravity.

It doesn't take but a few seconds scrolling through my page to see I'm an avid Zutara shipper. It's my OTP. But that doesn't make me more or less of a fan than any other shippers in the fandom.

I recognize that there was reason to ship Kataang if that was your cup of tea. That you guys had a few wins throughout the series. (And that you ultimately won at the end.) And one of those wins is the kiss in the cave of two lovers.

As a hard-core Zutara shipper, that can therefore look objectively at how Netflix decided to handle that cave, on behalf of all the level headed noncanon shippers:

Guys,

We are really sorry that they took one of your romantic episodes and made it about Katara and Sokka instead. That is so messed up. And while we do not ship Kataang, we can acknowledge that it, and all of you, deserved better. I'm sorry.

[dukeofdelirium]

I will never believe Zu/tara shippers when they say they hate Kata/aang because it's "heteronormative" since one of the main complaints Kata/aang gets from them is that "no 14 year old girl would wanna date a bald boy who's younger and shorter then her" or how Aang gets called a bald lesbian as an insult. Idk man I think Katara ending up with the bad boy with anger issues who is most stereotypically masculine of all the Gaang boys and who she spends most of the story hating for hurting her and her friends (who also personally betrayed her trust when she tried to help him). Idk man I think if these two got together that'd be a lot more heteronormative, especially since they only became friends an ep before the finale started. I think Katara and Aang's relationship has writing issues too (I have a lot of gripes I'm not coming at this as a shipper) but it takes a particular kind of ship brainrot to argue Zuta/ra end game would have made more sense or been a better end game with the canon we are given. And arguing it's somehow less heteronormative to make Zuko get together with Katara. I can't with this fandom.

if either of these two ships fit the definition of heteronormativity, it’s zvtara, not kataang. Aang does not fit the western male character type. He is short, shaves his head, is pacifistic, and quite feminine compared to the other male characters. He gets insulted for doing things that characters deem as “feminine”, like weaving jewelry for one.

the show doesn’t actually support this idea that femininity is bad, but characters like Sokka who have narrow viewpoints early in the story try to ridicule him. toph also makes jabs at Aang’s femininity.

Zvtara shippers argument has never been about heteronormativity. It’s always been “misogyny”. The only reason they’re adopting heteronormativity in their list of vocab words they still don’t know the definitions of is bc most of us kataang shippers on here (tumblr) are gay, bisexual, etc. And because we, as majority lgbt ppl have stated that their ship is heteronormative, they just want to flip that to use against us even when it doesn’t apply.

Kataang simply doesn’t follow a typical m/f ship in terms of writing, characters or how they interact with one another. Which is by and large why it has been so hated by these idiots. They wanna say “muhhh heteronormativity” but in the same breath ridicule Aang’s femininity, say he isn’t masculine enough for her, call him a lesbian etc to undermine the ship. Just as they say “muhhh male gaze” when most kataang shippers are actually women, because most ppl involved in shipping communities and fandoms in general are women.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I only know of a couple of male kataang shippers on here, myself being one of them. Ships and fandoms are very much and have always been a female dominated community. That’s for any fandom or any ship I’ve seen.

Their arguments are ridiculous and make no sense. It’s just like when some zvtara idiot was in my inbox harassing me for being a man and was saying that I’m an incel and that I hate women and want to rape women….. when I’m fucking GAY! Nothing they say makes sense or is canonical, so I’ve long since stopped taking anything they say seriously. It’s just free entertainment at this point.

Full offense but I don’t need a bunch of straight girls to tell me what heteronormativity means ��

[sapphic-agent]

One thing that bothers me about the fandom is the hyper-infantilization they put on Izuku, like making him look like a five-year-old child, or making him all delicate and innocent. This irritates me on a level that makes me wonder why this, like drawing him as a teenager, and also this happens a lot in the MLM ships that Izuku is placed in.

I'm of the belief that fans can characterize fictional characters how they want, BUT I totally understand your frustration. Personally, I also don't love this especially in relation to BakuDeku because it only serves to make Bakugou look better.

It's important to realize that most who do this aren't Izuku fans. They're either Bakugou or Todoroki fans (or Shigaraki fans, I've seen the same problem with ShigDeku on a smaller scale). We care about Izuku as his own character, past propping him for other characters' benefits so we detest that most content from him comes from people who don't understand or care for him the same way we do.

(I've had this issue with many of my favorites. Kataang shippers usually are Aang fans, Catradora shippers are usually Catra fans, most Broppy shippers are Branch fans, etc. And that's fine, but I think a lot of my issues with this come from the fact that their fanon becomes indistinguishable from canon in the fandom. This narrative prioritizes their favorites and makes the other side of the ship look worse)

So yeah, I totally get it