#just dudebros talking about animation

[llitchilitchi]

it's been a while since I've seen an analysis so bad I wanted to hurl

[tariah23]

They’ve been tearing yuuji apart on twitter for the last 2 days now

[narutoblogiguess]

I'm not a power scaler by any means but I am a bitch whose a sucker for a damn cool fight scene

[setaripendragon]

So I'm still on this daemon AU kick, and I can't stop thinking.

What are the limits?

It's generally accepted that a daemon is an animal representation of the soul, right? So, you know, we've got birds and mammals and reptiles and insects.

But what about fish?

Obviously there's an issue here of, you know, environment, and if your soul literally can't survive in the air while you literally can't survive in the water, there's a problem.

But, hey, if it's small enough, you could have a little fishbowl for your daemon to live in. Hamster ball, but filled with water, rolling along at your heels. Fishtank on wheels that get tricked out like dudebros soup up their car. And maybe, if you're from a particularly sea-faring culture/lifestyle a water-bound mammal like a dolphin or an orca could make sense. And then there's things like sharks, which have so much symbolism attached to them that it seems a real shame to have to rule them out. (Someone who's particularly driven or ambitious having a daemon that would literally die if it stopped moving is a bit of symbolism I'm going a bit feral for, tbh.)

I think we have to rule out the deep sea creatures, unfortunately. Fishbowls and/or living on a boat wouldn't really solve the problem of pressure, and someone with a blobfish daemon would, uh... be in trouble.

And if we're talking about things that can't survive in the same atmosphere as humans, what about internal parasites? Like flatworms. I think it's safe to say that having your daemon parasitizing your intestine kind of defeats the purpose of having an external manifestation of your soul, but... There are species of flatworm that aren't parasites, so... do we just rule out all flatworms, or are the non-parasitic ones okay?

And speaking of flatworms, what about size? I've read some fun stories that deal with the issues that might come from having, say, an elephant daemon. It's not quite as dramatic as the issues of having an aquatic daemon, but actually, similar adjustments would have to be made to your living situation to cope. But, of course, it could be done and I don't think anyone's trying to rule out animals on account of how big they are, but I think it's safe to say that microscopic daemons are out for the same reason that internal parasites have to be.

There's a nice solid rule I can settle on; a daemon has to be a visible animal.

And, in point of fact, I think it's safe to say it has to be an animal. We can rule out trees and plants and even fungi.

So what about coral?

It's an animal, and if we are allowing for some aquatic daemons, then should coral be an option? Or are its vibes too plant-like to qualify? Do we rule out sessile animals like we ruled out microscopic ones? As much as I find the idea of a coral daemon absolutely hilarious, I am going to come down on the side of animals that are too much like plants are a no.

So a daemon has to be a visible, mobile animal.

But what about the ones that only move very slowly? I don't think we're ruling out sloths, but in the continuing vein of torturing myself considering various aquatic daemons, there's starfish and sea urchins and hell, even most bivalves can move at least a little, right? (Correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't done that research yet.) And there's a lot of fun symbolsim to be had, there, I think.

And what about extinct creatures?

I think it's safe to say that mythical creatures are a no-go, unless this is a 'verse where those animals are real, (oh, boy wouldn't that confuse people in a world like HP where most people think dragons and unicorns aren't real, but people still wander around with dragon and unicorn daemons) so we can ammend our rule to visible, mobile, real animals, but could we go so far as extant?

If yes, that would have interesting world-building implications. Where's the cut-off point? Can we rule out dinosaurs because we don't/didn't have enough information for a daemon to settle into a form that wouldn't be technically mythical? But then, what about animals that go extinct within human history? What about all the people who had mammoth daemons or dodo daemons as those animals were dying out.

Would conservationists study daemon statistics to see if an animal has really gone extinct? Would an animal's extinct status get over-turned when a kid's daemon settled into that form? Honestly, I like this enough that I've convinced myself that, at least barring some very unique circumstances, extinct animals are not allowed.

So, it has to be a visible, mobile, extant animal. That can exist in proximity to humans.

Oh, and should probably add; visible, mobile, extant, and non-sapient.

You can't have a human daemon, or an elf or a dwarf or a fairy daemon even if they exist in that world, and if this is a 'verse with dragons who're more than just exotic magical animals, you can't have a dragon daemon. (Obviously, if your fairies are more like magical bugs than tiny people, then fairies would be a valid daemon.)

...I'm still on the fence about whether a daemon should have to be air-breathing or not. That kind of rule would still leave marine mammals available for the fun world-building of how people adapt to that kind of handicap. (...Do you think people with aquatic daemons would be considered disabled? Oooh, what about people with really big daemons? I mean, presuming such a thing is comparatively rare, people probably wouldn't be building schools with a mind to allowing elephants or giraffes to wander the corridors.)

Disclaimer! This is for my own creative process, and not intended to limit anyone else's creative flair. And, honestly, I'd love to hear other people's takes on what does and doesn't qualify for a daemon.

[orphiclovers]

The next Big Arc I'm excited for the webtoon to adapt is Kaizenix arc for multiple reasons but one of them is that I'm VERY curious about what they will do about heesung.

because heesung have a romance arc in kaizenix right. I don't think I need to prove it's canon like a fujoshi talking about her favourite M/M ship, red yarn and cork board style - we're all on the same page here, this is a completely uncontraversial take on the token het couple in orv, right? kim dokja sees them in kaizenix and thinks "damn I'll have to allow interpersonal dating in kimcom now" I don't think anyone is arguing for a platonic explaination here (het ship advantages etc) HOWEVER.

Jung Heewon looked like a man at the time.

"She's mentally a woman so it's fine and not gay" is a much easier pill to swallow when it's words in a novel and her appearence isn't described, and the flashbacks appear as disconnected lines of dialogue so you don't really think of them as looking like Erich and Bilston and imagine them as Jung Heewon and Lee Hyunsung regardless of their actual appearence.

But the webtoon is a visual format and that won't fly. They physically can't be non-committal about this, they have to draw SOMETHING and I can't WAIT to see what it will be, because whatever they decide to do will be massively entertaining to me.

Do they say fuck it, heesung yaoi canon? I can't imagine they want on screen (apparent) gayness in their male power fantasy manhwa, but they might bet on the 'she's a woman on the inside' cognative dissonance 'it's anime bullshit, don't question it' logic will win over in most dudebro heads, as with it did in the novel.

Or they might decide that it WON'T fly with the dudebros actually and they shouldn't risk it and-this is where it gets really funny- try to make heesung less gay.

They could tweak their scenes to downplay the romance aspect (make them more humorus or cut some parts). They could keep Jung Heewon's face and hair the same as usual except she's in armor don't worry about what's under it ok. To 'keep her recognizable' even though they're not usually afraid to make the designs temporarily unrecognizable (KDJ's YJH cosplay moment for example), or some combination of both, which is what I'm betting on.

Just friends-ing their scenes...... changing her design to a woman's...... All of this would be, and I can't believe I'm saying this, gay censorship.

heesung about to be the first het couple to experience gay erasure. that's awesome I love orv

That's why I NEED all of us to have a countdown to heesungs schrödinger's yaoi event the same way some people had for joongdok demon king stabbing scene. the POTENTIAL IS THERE OPEN YOUR EYES PEOPLE!!!

[bicheetopuff]

I just saw the worst takes about bnha’s ending on Instagram (three days ago now, as of posting this). So, today we’re gonna talk about Izuocha, shonen homoeroticism, and fandom… not in that order though…

I: Fandom

Fandom culture for all media has basically always been a war zone that you have to actively avoid, usually with two defining sides: people who try to enjoy media the way they want to enjoy it, and the people who say that everyone is wrong and attack others who they don’t agree with. There are shades of gray on both sides, but in general this is usually the case. It’s never been “‘alphabet mafia’ vs ‘normal’” or “fanon vs canon” or “right vs wrong”… I almost always see people having fun being attacked unwarranted (I am not saying that people being legitimately problematic shouldn’t be called out, pls don’t get me wrong. I’m talking about innocent fun!). And I’m not just talking about dudebros attacking shippers, I’ve seen a lot of shippers attack non-shippers/other shippers of a different ship, and it’s almost always people just saying “you’re wrong, I’m right, and your take ruins this media piece of media for everyone else.” That being said, I wanna talk about the highlighted parts of these comments, okay? But first I need to explain the video that these comments were on.

It was a video by @/d_rich7 on Instagram, a big anime creator, talking about this tweet:

To summarize the video, he went on to say that he’s not surprised because bnha has the worst shipping community since Naruto and how Horikoshi probably felt forced into not confirming any ships because of “threats and hate mail” that he got from his fandom. I’ll come back to that but first I’ll talk about some of the comments:

“At least, they can say they weren’t the reason for the downfall of their anime.”

I've seen this take from different parts of the fandom, whether it was in regard to ships, todofam, or the villains. Just because the narrative of a story ends up matching the theories of people you disagree with, doesn't mean the story is going through a downfall. Just accept that you were wrong and move on. It is okay to not like certain aspects of the story and it's okay to discuss and criticize it, but pinning the blame on people who just happened to be right, no matter how much you hate it, is not okay.

“People need to stop demanding the literal CREATOR of a series to do things how they want it done…They to learn it’s not their story to tell…”

“…like I don’t get how people who have no impact on the writing of a story get mad because the CREATORS don’t wanna use their personal ideas.”

“…from now on imma blame the fandom for fucking up the anime/manga, we could’ve had a better ending if it wasn’t for them…”

Outside of the context, I actually agree with the sentiment that fans shouldn't feel so entitled that they think they have any control over the media they're consuming. But, the commenters don't realize that they're doing the exact thing that they’re talking about. They're convinced that the queer shipping community is the reason the creator decided not to confirm any relationship and are pissed off that the ship they were rooting for, didn't happen. Why are they exempt from this rule? Because straight ships are supposed to happen and queer ships aren't? Because the boy is supposed to win the girl at the end in order to develop a good shonen? I'll go into the misogynistic implications of that later.

Other than that, I have seen a lot of people on tumblr get mad about other things, like before, regarding to the villains and todofam drama to the point that they started insulting Hori. Like I said, it's okay to be mad. Being mad about something doesn't make you a bad person but it was never our story to tell. Criticism and hate, are two different things and come off very differently.

“MHA’s fandom is filled to the brim with toxic, no shower taking, furry loving, lgbtq idiots…”

Honestly I added this one because he's right. We're here, we're queer, and we're idiots in the best way possible. However, I think this also says the quiet part out loud when it comes to the hatred towards bnha and it's fandom.

Shipping communities in other fandoms don't get anywhere near as harassed as often as the shipping communities in the bnha fandom despite not being much different. The difference is, a lot of us identify as and are recognized as queer and Hori himself even recognized that the LGBT community especially took a liking to his manga. But, in other fandoms, it's only okay to consider queer ships if they're recognized by the cishet audience.

Most people in the aot fandom don't have an issue with eremin because it was something recognized and memed by straight men, even if it was mostly as a joke. The kny fandom doesn't care about inotan because it was also recognized and memed by straight men. Narusasu doesn't get much hate anymore because the straight men of their fandom also started to recognize the characters weird obsession with each other and it became more difficult to ignore the ship since there was literally multiple accidental kiss scenes--one of the few times where the source material actively encourages shipping. I can keep going too.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, non-shonen animes with majority cishet women as their audience, no one bats an eye at their ships either, because there's not enough men in their communities to tell them they should feel ashamed for their fanon content and their words hold no weight… and there’s a lot less queer people in those fandoms. You see the trend, right? It's almost like queer shipping is perfectly okay and mostly accepted as long as the community is either majority cishet men, or those men grant permission/approval for the specific ships or the piece of media wasn’t “meant for men.” Otherwise, it's seen as gross and cringe.

There was one other community that was kind of similar to bnha in a sense that it was mostly consumed by queer people and cishet men, where there was a lot of discourse on whether the two main characters were queer or not… which is the Buddy Daddies fandom. When the show was airing, those two sides that I talked about earlier were pretty apparent, with people having heated arguments about whether there were queer undertones or not. The cishet men of the fandom didn't give their approval to ship Rei and Kazuki, so it became an issue. Same with JJK now, more so with itafushi though. SatoSugu was given a somewhat stamp of approval but itafushi is still seen as taboo.

However, for some reason, every queer ship and character (even if it's canon) in bnha is seen as something shameful to recognize which I think is very telling considering how large the queer and disabled part of the fandom is. Minorities are being punished for relating to a manga with discrimination as one of it's core themes. Do what you want with that...

“…hate-mail just pushed him over the edge so he just scrapped everything just as punishment to spite them…”

This kind of references rumors from a few years ago about the shipping community sending hate mail and death threats towards Horikoshi and everyone just running with it without doing their research.

Horikoshi did receive death threats but it was about Dr.Garaki's original name which you can read about here. It was mostly the eastern side of the fandom being aggressive, even going as far as posting videos of them burning the volume where Garaki's name was revealed which isn't okay. However, everyone blamed it on the western shipping community... for whatever reason...

There was another instance where people in the western fandom started sending Horikoshi death threats on his twitter because of a chapter about Endeavor getting attacked by Dabi and an Nomu and the Todo family being worried about him, people claiming that Hori "deserved to die" for romanticizing and glorifying abuse (when that wasn't at all the case, I'm genuinely confused on how they interpreted that...). This came out six years ago but somehow is still narrowed down to the queer community and women being toxic... like what? Do you see my point now of it feeling like we need to be granted permission to do certain things in fandom if we don't want to be punished?

Also who was Hori punishing by not confirming any ships? If anything, I’ve seen most shippers appreciative than not…

II: Ochako Uraraka and her relationship with Izuku Midoriya

Back to that point about misogyny that I mentioned earlier...

"...I would have lowkey wish we got to see deku and ochaco end up together since their relationship was hinted from the beginning..."

Quick warning... this is gonna be a long point.

Yes, they were attracted to each other at the beginning, no one is denying that. No one is denying Ochako’s crush either. Izuku’s nervous around her for the first like 50-ish chapters because he's still used to having friends (especially a girl. If you think about it, if his childhood friends were the only friends he had ever had before getting shunned by his community, then he had never had a girl as a friend before... ever) but their relationship eventually mellows out into a normal friendship. Given Ochako and Toga's arc, I don't think Izuocha was ever destined to end romantically.

Toga was desperate to be loved by someone who accepted her for who she was while Ochako was desperate to be able to show love to someone who she truly admired. Ochako wanted to be like Deku and tried for a while until she realized that she couldn’t and shouldn’t want to be like Deku. She thinks he’s amazing but she realizes that she can’t strive to be like him because she’s already like him but wants to change.

(this is kind of off topic but I just want to point out what Ochako said about Toga being sad about not being able to totally become Jin. Correct me if I'm remembering wrong but, Toga was only able to ever transform into Ochako completely, quirk and all. I think there's an analogy there, where her being able to be just like someone possibly means she's in love with them but she convinces herself that she loves everyone equally. I think it's supposed to be saying that "even though you can't be him completely, doesn't mean you don't love him, you just don't love him in the way you thought you did" and I think Ochako realizes that because she possibly had the same realization with Izuku. Becoming him didn't work out for her because she didn't love him the way others told her she did... I guess it wasn't off topic... oh well.)

The highlighted parts can apply to Ochako too if you replace “bloodlust” with “envy”. She suffered the same issue that Toga did with other people telling her how and who to love which made her feel like she was supposed to be jealous.

She didn't like these feelings of jealousy, so she began to unintentionally be like Deku and hide them. I don't think she ever had an issue with loving Deku but she had an issue with the way she convinced herself of how she loved Deku made her feel. It made her feel like she was hiding something because I think she felt conflicted for not loving him the way everyone expected her to. All the way up to her final fight with Toga, we were only getting intel about her crush from other characters. Not her.

There's a lot of Mina just telling her what her feelings are despite Mina canonically not knowing much about love. Her crush has always been projected onto her which is why she's able to relate to Toga so well and wants to be more like her since Toga is able to live as herself so comfortably and broke away from conformity and what's expected of her.

Ochako's crush is only there because it's expected to be and her arc is meant to prove that she can be more than just the MCs love interest. Ochako's projected crush is Horikoshi trying to prove a point about basic shonen tropes which he's done time and time again throughout the story. SHE WANTS TO LIVE AND LOVE HOW SHE PLEASES WITHOUT SOCIETY TELLING HER HOW TO JUST LIKE TOGA WAS ABLE TO DO! I WILL KEEP SAYING IT UNTIL MY THROAT IS RAW AND DUDEBROS BEGIN TO FINALLY UNDERSTAND AND NOT VIEW FEMALE CHARACTERS AS NOTHING MORE THAN EYE CANDY FOR THE MALE CHARACTERS!!!

In the epilogue. she hides her feelings with a smile because she doesn't want to worry anyone (sound familiar?) so it only makes sense that it was Deku who pushed her to let out her feelings despite not practicing what he preaches. So, she embraced her inner Himiko and let out her feelings with her whole face. Those feeling just weren't for Deku... and they shouldn't have to be.

I genuinely feel like (especially with the way dudebros hate queer ships in this fandom) if Ochako was a boy, her arc wouldn't have been so widely misinterpreted. Because if he had talked about how amazing Izuku was and Mina came in and still said "It's love!" most fans would've taken it as a joke and/or even going as far as pointing out that the crush wasn't real because he didn't actually admit to it and it was projected onto him by other characters. But, the world ain't ready for that conversation.

"...I saw it as the fandom tryn to force their ships into the story 100% ruining key moments..."

I mainly added this quote because I thought it was so absurd. How do you see class-a coming to support Ochako as "omg it's the fandom forcing their agenda and controlling Hori through mind control to force their ships into the story and ruin this key moment,"??? Like, is it really so unthinkable that Horikoshi can have creative freedom outside the norm of treating girl characters as a trophy for the MC? You expected Izuku to marry her on the spot while she's having a mental breakdown? It's just... anyways...

III: Old-Gen Shonen Homoeroticism and it's Relation with Internalized Misogyny and how New-Gen is Changing That

The Shonen genre - especially old gen - is notorious for it's accidental misogyny, queerphobia, and racism. It got to the point where it's just kind of expected at this point.

The main one is usually misogyny. A lot of shonen mangaka like to write women as nothing more than eye candy and when they are actually given a personality and power, their character arcs are suddenly ignored/neglected and turned back into eye candy. Take Tsunade and Nezuko for example. We're told that they're important and powerful and yet they rarely do anything and almost never get important speaking lines and when we get to see them in action, the author makes sure to highlight certain parts of their bodies. Nezuko I think is an especially obvious one, being literally muzzled for most of the story, and when she powers up, she grows up and is suddenly given huge boobs...

Almost every shonen girls' character arcs revolves around a man and if not, then their existence is for the sake of a male character. I will say, I havent watched much shonen because of this aspect that's always apparent, but almost every older shonen I've watched, read, or seen other people talk about, it rears its ugly head at least once.

Because of that, most love interests weren’t given enough personality to actually form a meaningful relationship with the MC that the audience - especially female and queer audiences - can connect to. More often than not, it’s “I like her cuz she’s pretty” or “I like her cuz she likes me” and it’s irritating. And since these relationships are so shallow, authors are forced to create an interesting bond between the MC and a different character which usually ends up being the deuteragonist who is usually another boy more often than not. And boys in media written “for boys” are almost never neglected the way a girl would be, which is a sad truth.

These relationships almost always end up feeling like they’re passed the point of friendship and because of that, a lot of women and queer people end up shipping them instead of the canon love interest. Because their relationship being romantic actually makes sense most of the time.

BakuDeku, Eremin, KilluaGon, NaruSasu, ItaFushi, SatoSugu, IsaBachi, HideKan, GenoSai, LawLight, the list can go on for fucking ever.

However, in bnha and BakuDeku’s case, especially when the “canon” relationship with the “canon” love interest wasn’t really developed at all, and we never got a hint from Deku that he liked her, I don’t think this homoeroticism wasn’t intentional. Like with a lot of new-gen, there wasn’t really blatant misogyny towards the “love interest” present to explain away the closeness between the two male leads.

All of the roles a love interest would usually have, were given to Katsuki. He was damseled for Deku to save, he was Deku’s biggest cheerleader, he risked his life to save Deku, he died in Izuku’s honor, he showed up for Izuku when no one else thought to, he showed up to his hospital room and cried over the condition he was in, and then he devoted nearly a decade of his life trying to bring Izuku’s dream back into fruition… He cares so fucking much and Izuku cares right back. And no one can convince me that it was accidentally gay, because Horikoshi literally felt the need to tell AND remind us that Katsuki doesn’t like girls. Plus, like I said before, all of that was done without neglecting Uraraka’s character arc.

But even though all of that is in text, I think shonen bros just expect it while also expecting the main girl and boy to be together… because that’s how it always used to be. It wasn’t until new-gen - starting with mha - started to purposely parody dated shonen tropes and twisting them into their own stories that shonen bros began to feel threatened by queer ships. Because they know that there’s actually a chance of them happening now, and I feel like IzuOcha not being canonized is the beginning of a new trend. And misogynistic anime fans already hate it.

Conclusion - TLDR

uh idk what to say here.

In conclusion, fandom culture kinda sucks because of unexpected reasons, Ochako’s character arc is ignored for the sake of men wanting her to be Izuku’s prize and it’s irritating as fuck, and I think previously accidental homoeroticism in old-gen shonen is becoming purposeful in new-gen shonen as new-gen slowly becomes more progressive and less misogynistic. Oh and bkdk canon ig (I don’t think I’ve ever said that before, strangely enough…)

[yuttikkele]

the izuocha vs bakudeku shipwar not dying off being getting STRONGER after the manga ended is SOOOO funny. I really enjoy watching it go down. I’ll scroll by a reel of one bashing the other and it’s just so entertaining. The manga ended and no one won and they’re both throwing rocks harder at each other.

and I think one of the things that makes it so absurdly funny to me is that, I’ve never seen a fandom-wide HUGE ship war, like THE ship war of the fandom, THE brawl for who gets the protagonist, be between a straight and gay ship. Talk about diversity in mainstream media, amirite? Like OF COURSE it’s bnha the fandom known for its gay shipping, but, bnha is still a shounen anime!! It has a LOT of dudebros! The bnha fandom has a lot of queers and a lot of dudebros, and you thought bnha was done? No, this is THE final battle, and they’re going head to head duking it all out.

[nostalgebraist]

There's something very charming and unique about this Youtube show called "Resonant Arc"

It's just like, these two pleasant dudebro-ish type guys talking about video games, mostly JRPGs.

But it's very different in flavor from most "gaming content" on the modern internet. They take everything seriously. Just going off their tone, their willingness to go slow and pay close attention, and their level of charity towards the material, you'd think they were in a book club reading Dostoevsky or something.

They do background research. They comb through the dialogue line by line, animated by an unspoken presumption that it makes sense and conveys a unified artistic meaning.

I started watching their Xenogears series at a random point partway through, and the video started out with a 10-minute explanation of some molecular biology concepts occasioned by a single line that mentioned introns and exons, including a section edited in during post-production to clarify that non-coding DNA probably has a function and isn't merely "junk."

The whole thing is like that! The video linked in this post is the first one in the series, it's two hours long, and they don't even start playing the game. Instead they talk about the game's development history, its difficult localization process and how it spurred later improvements in Square's practices around localization, the role of phatic expression in the Japanese language, etc., etc.

It's like, the exact kind of analysis that I (and you?) felt these games deserved back when I (we?) were playing them as 15-year-old dweebs. And executed exactly as I (we?) would have wanted it: not as some ancient effortpost written on a phpBB forum, probably by some other pimply 15-year-old -- no, as two well-groomed, well-spoken adults talking about these games in this way for hours as though it's the most natural thing in the world. Perfect. No notes.

[darkcircles4lyfe]

This doesn't have anything to do with anything, but i had a talk with a friend a few days ago, about shonen biasis and the way this shapes our expectations, and mha came up so i remembered how so many people apply those biasis HEAVILY into the manga, to the point that they sound like they're looking for a different story.

And one of those things that it seemed to be MOST talked about is exactly bkdk's relationship.

I have seen many times people from the fandom (sometimes really angrily) point out how in most cases Katsuki seems to basically take up not one, but four roles in Izuku's life and this includes putting him in situations that people associate with the MC's love interest, and it is weird that, despite Izuku "having a girl" for people to make assumptions about, he seems to completely repulse any female character that could be the counter part to Izuku's.

And this made us wonder if Katsuki's placement in those roles and lack of interest was made specifically because the author precisely did not want the actions that both do for each other as romantic but a whole another thing entirely, as a subversion for the these classic tropes, as he did by making the conflict between Ochako and Himiko not a "rivals fighting for the affection of a boy" but something that is connected to the plot of these characters instead.

Oh you bet! I am always down to talk about this, because I think about it a lotttt.

This reminds me, recently I remembered a funny habit I used to have with books I read. Like, back in middle school. I used to start by flipping directly to the last page and reading the final sentence. Usually this did not spoil anything whatsoever, but sure enough, by the time I read through the whole book, that sentence would take on new meaning.

So I started musing about what it would be like if only I could do this with bnha, if everything was already out. It made me feel so nostalgic…

Will the last panel be something grand, or something small? Hopeful or sad? Distant? Intimate? A parting message to the reader? Will it look like almost nothing of consequence to the unknowing eye—yet burst with hard-hitting subtext?

Of course I wonder about all the twists and reveals that might be still ahead of us, but it’s kinda soothing to think about how the whole thing could be put to rest. Because then I realize I’m not worried.

For once, this is not because the story is following so many tropes so predictably that I know exactly, in so many words, how it will end. It’s more like the story is a close friend who I’ve gotten to know well enough that everything they do is so “them” it makes me smirk. I'm often marveling at how Horikoshi has managed to pull all this off. How is it that (at least here in the west) people who aren't really paying attention call it basic and cookie-cutter. Even a Japanese animator called it "classic," and this interview shows such obvious dissonance between Hori and the interviewer, just... wow. But it's so clear that bnha has broken just about every rule in the book at this point, so much so that I struggle to condense it into words. I'm like--*gestures broadly at everything*--why haven't more people picked up on it??

Yet we still get bombarded with people saying "it's a shonen, c'mon, we all know how this will end." Um. No you don't. I KNOW there has to be a bunch of people who are secretly frustrated by Kacchan taking up all the roles and getting all the moments. It's not even in a mysogynistic way, because Kacchan is the most anti-dudebro character imaginable. Bkdk's relationship isn't intended for them and they know it... and you know what, I'm starting to ramble. You've heard all this before. The thing I should really be focusing on in your ask is the part where you mentioned how you and your friend were speculating about bkdk ending up as "a whole other thing entirely" rather than simply romantic.

Well, fuck it, I've been biting my tongue, but now might as well be the time I talk about this. I got into a bit of a disagreement with someone over it once and then I shut up. Because it's very difficult to approach the subject without being lumped in with those people who see bkdk as "brotherly" (ew) or otherwise try to push some "crisis of male friendship" agenda, or at the very least without being accused of enabling people to make excuses against bkdk being canon ad infinitum. So let me be clear that I do NOT want bkdk to have an ambiguous or open ending. I want their complexity and importance to be acknowledged. I want them to use their words. I think we may have created a bit of a false dichotomy there.

I am aromantic, and to suggest romantic relationships are inherently the most important and intimate goes against every fiber of my being. I also reject the idea that cut-and-dry gay representation is more desirable just because it is more easily understood by the masses than aspec representation or representation of relationships "beyond" both romantic and platonic. We recognize how ridiculous it is for people to expect Izu*cha at this point, right? Well, the reason they're so confident anyway isn't just because of heteronormativity. It's also because of amatonormativity, the assumption that romantic attraction trumps all: no matter how much focus bkdk get, Izuku blushed at Ochako, so that automatically makes them more "important." THAT is the notion that I want to challenge most. More than anything, I want bkdk's relationship to be fully acknowledged because they have so much more going for them than just attraction.

You and your friend make an excellent point, that it would be very much in line with Horikoshi's taste and the patterns of his writing so far if he chose to subvert the shonen romance trope not just by giving it to two boys, but also by disregarding its premise entirely. It's unlikely he'd try to stuff them into such a copy-paste ending right at the end.

So maybe they won't get the blushy confession, the obligatory kiss, the wedding, the 2.5 kids and a white picket fence. That's fine, we shouldn't pretend those tired tropes are suddenly revolutionary just because they're gay. But don't be disappointed! Without them, we have more room for things that are actually personally meaningful to bkdk to stand out and receive the nuance they deserve: talking through their feelings openly, building each other up like no one else can, understanding each other like no one else can, smiling at each other, embracing, holding hands, rushing to the other in the hospital, being glued at the hip (or even closer), healing mutual trauma, putting each other first in all things. Maybe we'll also get confirmation on Ochako's side as she moves on from her crush on Izuku. You know what other shonen manga took this exact angle as a way of subverting tropes and presenting genuine complexity? Blue Flag! There are so many ways to do bkdk justice.

Even a kiss isn't out of the question, if the right opportunity comes along. A perfect example of what I'm talking about is Good Omens (major season 2 spoilers) because the kiss between Crowley and Aziraphale was not at all about canonizing them. It was an expression of pain and desperation that just made sense at that particular moment. Neil Gaiman was adamant that if it took that kiss to understand the context of their relationship, you really weren't paying attention. I respect the hell out of that.

Recently I was even daydreaming about bkdk getting something similar to the sort of uh, shall we say tasteful nudity, that togachako got, because of how Izuku appears in the vestige realm.

Ya know like not in an nsfw way but in like a "this is so deeply intimate and soft that I feel like I'm intruding" kind of way... yeah. Because it represents vulnerability and openness and acceptance of someone as they are. And I don't care if people call that bait. It's not. It's beautiful. It’s honest.

[maoam]

me: lol look how KISHIMOTO portrayes NH and SS in CANON, Naruto and Sasuke don't like to be around their wives.

wild ss/nh: except did you know there are anime (only) images where Sasuke smiles at Sakura and Sarada and spends time with them? Hah!

me: literally nothing about this contradicts what I just said. Do you know what canon and orig creator means?

The series is Kishimoto's story. I'm talking about his intention. Not what the dudebro animators at SP animating Hinata's tits to wobble like a hentai character on twitter (yes this happened) intended. Compare Gaiden to Boruto the movie, where Sasuke is smiling fondly at Naruto, bickering with him playfully, talking about him, using a pet name on him, co-parenting Boruto with him, fighting alongside with him, being held homoerotically by him. He looks happy with Naruto. In Gaiden he looks just miserable and like he wants to be out of there as soon as possible. He doesn't smile even at once at Sakura, looking like he wants her to be there. Kishi really couldn't have been more clear on what's the difference between Naruto and Sakura when it comes to Sasuke. But if the promotional images created by the animators make it easier for people to pretend this isn't the case then there's nothing I can do. I just think it's better to not live in delusion.

[beanghostprincess]

the monster trio are various flavors of audhd (all strawhats are neurodivergent, but they the most)

luffy is high empathy, stimming, bluntness and audioprocessing disorder

zoro is hyperfocus, sleepy, good at maths and flat affect

sanji is infodumping, special interest (cooking), rigid rules (don't hurt women, don't use hands, etc) and difficulty with regulating emotions

Agree completely 🫶🏻 There is not a single neurotypical person in this crew !! That's why they love each other so much, they just get each other. In general, I think that the whole "misfits finding a found family" trope is incredibly neurodivergent coded but I think that specifically with the strawhats there is like, a fundamental obvious understanding that none of them are neurotypical. Like there is no way. I know it's meant to be very general for people who don't fit in to relate, but keeping in mind that most of the time the reason people don't fit in is because of living in a normative, neurotypical society... Idk. I just feel like the strawhats were all meant to be for neurodivergent people.

This being said !!!

AAAAAAAAAA I love the monster trio being neurodivergent. Mainly because I know it'd bother sooo many dudebros. And also because it makes so much sense and it's very very very real to me.

Luffy can't stop moving or doing stuff because it is painfully boring to be doing nothing, so he's always finding new things to do because short attention span and hyperactivity in a crew where everybody has their own stuff to do?? Not a good combo. So he's always seeing what he can do to not get bored. I think he's always touching Zoro's earrings absentmindedly like-- It's not even on purpose. He just does it. Also, being made of rubber has to be the best thing for stimming with your own body ngl. He's sooo direct and honest and blunt because he genuinely doesn't get why people don't think the same as him, but he doesn't have to get it to be emotionally attached and help you out because he makes other people's emotions his. Also add info-dumping right there because I know this guy is the biggest nerd about beetles and will talk to anybody who asks about them. They might be talking about something that has nothing in common with them and he brings them up anyway. Also! I adore the APD headcanon??? You're so right and it fits him SO well.

Zoro is my absolute beloved here because he has so much depth and feels and knows so much but people always characterize him as stoic and emotionless and like,, He just has a hard time showing it visually but he feels stuff deeply. He's always training and it almost feels like the world around him vanishes and he's always sooo eepy. Eepy boy. I get it. I think he almost finds it frustrating tbh like- We never talk about that but I think it's a bit bothersome for him sometimes? Also he's my favorite math genius and he might be shitty at directions but damn he's good at this. Also he likes things to be perfectly placed and everything to be in patterns of 3, thank you.

Sanji is the realest for me-- Don't ask him about the All Blue (please do) because he will start talking like crazy for hours and hours and hours with the brightest of smiles. If somebody wants to know about his cooking like, actually know what he's doing, he won't shut up. Somebody mentions any animal or vegetable or fruit and the guy is already telling you all the ways it can be cooked. He has a lil voice in his head telling him constantly what he should and shouldn't do btw and I also hc that he has to have everything in the right place or else he loses his mind completely. And that's tied to not being able to regulate emotions properly-- So he's constantly extremely anxious or feeling waves of sadness or just, extreme emotions in general.

[a-may-w]

Women and gay shipping in Anime

I just had a realization on why women seem to be the majority that ship male characters---women are able to put themselves in the female characters shoes. Let me explain. Often in highly popular male ships---specifically in anime for this post, including but not limited to Bakudeku, Sasunaru, etc.---the two male leads/rivals have an extremely close relationship and large portions of their lives, character arcs, and stories revolve around one another. Their is also more often than not a canonical female love interest the main male character gets with. The main male characters life, character arc, and story often doesn't revolve around the main female ones, but her life, character arc, and story revolve around him. What happens then is that the female love interest becomes second place to the other male lead. This alone is enough to justify why people ship the male characters as opposed to the main straight one, but the reason why women specifically often ship the two males leads because of this is because women don't want to put themselves in second place. To men, or really anime dudebros, the female love interest being second-place really doesn't matter to them. Their favorite male characters who they see themselves in gets to have his 'best-buddy' around all the time and gets the girl, because, duh, he deserves it. But to women, who often see themselves or can see themselves in female characters, wanting/watching her get with the main male lead feels sad. It literally feels like watching a friend from high school settle with their below-average high school sweet-heart. I don't want that for her. I want her to be an equal to the main character---a part that completes him, and in turn, a part that completes her. The main male lead and female lead often do not fill these rolls for one another. Do you know who does fulfill these roles for one another? Thats right, the two main male leads. Women reject the often unequal, heterosexual relationship presented to them in cannon and embrace the homosexual, equal, relationship that rarely ever happens. And its so bizarre because this inequality of relationships often occurs because of internalized mysogony authors hold towards female characters---like, what do you mean in order for my cannon straight relationship to be compelling I have to write a 3-dimensional female character that gives and takes from the main male character, I only know how to do that with men---but they ARE NOT gay. Or, even funnier, the authors did want to make it gay but couldn't so they just hinted at it a bunch. I'm looking at you Horikoshi and Masashi, I don't know anything concrete but I've heard rumors. I feel like this is also proven by the fact that when a female and male character are on an equal standing the amount of gay shipping surrounding those two is a lot less prevalent. Obviously it's still their because, duh, thats just how shippings work, but it is not nearly as large or intense as when the specific scenario I described above occurs. Like Kirishima and Mina (yes I know my only examples are from MHA), they are equals, and as such I have seen little to no argument against their relationship and a decrease in krbk work---which is also due to the recent MONUMENTAL rise of bkdk. Of course I know that a lot of shipping is due to fetishization and that this realization most likely isn't new or original but I have no one in real life to talk with about it with and want to get it out of my head. Like, why would I wanna watch a women settle for second place in a mans life, I already see that shit on the daily bruh.

[devondeal]

Been talking with @jedimasterbailey and @bluedeedeedoop about the sudden flip in Barriss's fan reception since the TOTE trailer:

Gotta love how there were so few true Barriss fans who were always willing to see the potential in her story vs the majority who literally could only see her as a terrorist and a traiter saying horrible shit like she's worse than Anakin who literally commited genocide and other crimes.

Basically she wasn't a character to them. Just the person who betrayed Ahsoka. They could only see how the plot used her. Meanwhile Barriss fans payed attention to things facial expression, vocal inflection, dialogue and kept up with any scrap of an update about her for 12 YEARS.

All the while the Barriss haters and dude bros leave the nastiest comments on our threads and any Youtube video, Tik Tok, you name it, wanting to make it clear they want Vader to brutally kill her or basically their want for yet another complex Star Wars lady character to meet a horrible end.

But ever since the Tales of the Empire trailer came out her reception has been overwhelmingly positive. Don't get me wrong, this makes me really very happy. It's amazing what a little attention can do to change the narrative. But at the same time the sudden flip is a bit jarring.

Like why did it have to take a trailer to be able to see what a wonderful character Barriss is? Like I'm sorry but it's not rocket science to be able to tell that there was more to her than The Clone Wars was willing to show. Animation is VERY intentional. They would not have animated her with saddened and guilty expressions during the entire Wrong Jedi Arc.

Nor would they have wrote and partially animated the deleted scene of Barriss HUGGING AND SAYING I'M SORRY TO AHSOKA BEFORE THE TRIAL. They would have done NONE of that if the intention was a cut and dry villain.

It does not take rocket science to realize that The Clone Wars could have made their half baked terrorist plot at least make the bit amount of sense instead of having to see Jar Jar have a sex life or build up to her choices instead of a wander droid arc in early season 5 that is the literal worst.

I am happy that finally they will address Barriss in a new show with beautiful new animation. Though I am still nervous for what fate they will have her meet. And I am happy for the new Barriss fans that will come out of this series.

What I am frustrated with are the haters and dudebros. They can't just switch up. Writers deciding a character is worthy of attention is not a reason for y'all assholes who bullied Barriss fans all these years to jump on the bandwagon. Like at the fucking least admit you were wrong. Basically y'all are not welcome, idgaf

[utilitycaster]

The thing I've realized, in the broader Actual Play space, is that a lot of creators are trying to turn Actual Play shows into TV shows.

You mentioned Kollok in your tags, and the creator of that has mentioned creating Kollok in a way to try to appeal to the Netflix audience.

And I'm all for experimentation, but tbh if I wanted to watch a TV show, I would go watch a TV show. That's not what I'm looking for in an Actual Play and over editing and gimmicks actively turn me off from it.

Folks creating Actual Play seem to put a lot of weight on it, but I don't know if it's that important from an audience perspective.

Hey anon,

Huge same - I've been thinking about this for a while, especially in regards to choices I didn't like (notably on D20, though the Candela split screen in chapter 3, while relatively minor, felt like part of the same trend and I'm really interested in seeing whether they keep it). I actually did mean to write more about this not in the tags of a reblog, so thanks for this ask because it gives me that motivation to do it!

Earlier this year I was at an event and someone who to be totally honest I found kind of annoying was talking about Dimension 20, and I decided to keep quiet and listen to what other people had to say, and another person (whom I respect and specifically know to be like, left-leaning and inclusive and not gatekeeper dudebro type, which is relevant to the next statement) who is solidly in Gen X and has been playing D&D since at least 2e mentioned that he doesn't like Actual Play at all because he is from the era where D&D was frequently played in third person and is somewhat of a purist in that sense. Ie, this guy would say "Gawain pulls out his sword and smites the dragon, with a 24 to hit", rather than "I'm going to pull out my sword and smite the dragon." He described his idea of D&D as being very much collaborative storytelling in the sense of a bunch of third person narrators who happen to be the storytellers for one specific character, not a first-person acted scene.

I happen to like both forms of narration and am not a purist either way, and indeed use both third person and first person myself as a player (as do many actual players; you see this on CR and D20 all the time). But I think this does show just how broad this spectrum is. You have people all the way on the "I am narrating an improvised story, I am the storyteller puppeting my character and I am not trying to be immersed" side and then you have shows that are trying to push this into full immersion...but so long as you have dice rolls, you'll never achieve it.

I prefer something in between: I do love watching people act, but I really like the gears and wires! I love mechanics! I think people who say "I love actual play D&D but I don't really care for combat, only RP" don't actually like actual play D&D! This is a specific format and I do not want people to hide the fact that they are using the rules of a game and are at a table, because they are and we know it.

This came up when I and others talked about the Legend of Vox Machina adaptation: they're probably going to have to find a way to convey the same tragedy and gravity of Scanlan's ninth level counterspell that doesn't require viewers to know the mechanics, because if you watch that scene as actual play the meaning of Sam saying "Nine" is immediately apparent. It hits hard with that one single word, but that won't be the case in an animated adaptation where no one is rolling a D20. Mechanics are in intrinsic part of actual play. You can enjoy actual play without that knowledge, but a solid grounding in those mechanics will only enhance that enjoyment (well, unless you're one of those rules-lawyery weirdos who gets bitter about any GM rule of cool/homebrew that they couldn't predict from the rulebooks but those people will never be happy).

The more general context of "being in a game", not just mechanics, is also in my opinion valuable. Brennan, on a Worlds Beyond Number fireside chat, referred to certain NPCs like Caramelinda as "furious that they are in a D&D game" and it's a funny and true statement. I feel like trying to push actual play into the realm of scripted shows is that: it feels like you're trying to hide the origins, and I think the quality of the show will ultimately suffer when you do that. It feels almost ashamed of what it is, and I don't think you can make something that transforms a medium/genre/thing in between the two without having a profound love and respect for the original, even if you also find it flawed. (This is also, tbh, how I feel about a lot of attempts to divorce D&D from the fact that it is ultimately a game influenced heavily by sword-and-sorcery fantasy, or about attempts to turn high or heroic fantasy into something that neatly affirms all of one's 2024 real world political beliefs, but that's another post).

I also think that the out-of-character element of actual play is a big draw. I have been open about having complicated feelings about the parasocial and projection aspects; but those feelings are "hey, this is still a show that is a source of livelihood, you are not hanging out in someone's living room and getting weird about the fact that the CR cast no longer responds to every tweet is dumb" and "you have not been betrayed by the creators because you didn't get the plot you wanted," and "the fact that two actors sit next to each other is not, in fact, a solid basis for shipping." I am equally opposed to the idea of "the actors do not exist, only the characters do," put forward in that attempt to make actual play Netflix-ready. It's fun to watch the CR cast rib Travis for turning bright red for, as people said, pretend kissing his real wife. It's fun to watch the Intrepid Heroes heckle Brennan when he plays a villain. It's fun to hear Aabria and Erika scream at WBN plot developments and for the McElroys or the NADDPod crew to wheeze with laughter and all of these shows but CR are to a degree edited, and all leave that element in, which I think says something really important about what actual play is understood to be!

It does not escape me that the seasons/shows using heavier camera edits have often, in my opinion, sacrificed story quality for a visual style I don't even care for. I do watch prestige television, and one of the more striking cinematographic choices I've seen lately are the extremely long single take shots used on both Succession's final season (Connor's Wedding, 4x03) and The Bear's first season (Review, 1x07). Prestige TV is not doing the glitchy Neverafter stuff. Hell, I liked Sagas of Sundry: Dread and never finished Madness before it went offline and haven't made an effort to seek it out specifically because the black box theater feel of Dread felt fun and new but not too removed from actual play vibes, whereas the higher production values of Madness, ironically, made it feel too artificial and stilted to keep my interest.

Actual play is its own beast, and in trying to appeal to a new audience you're probably going to lose a lot of the one you have. A big part of why I haven't been motivated to check out Kollok is that everything I hear about it, even positive reviews, makes it sound like it's missing the things I like from actual play and doesn't achieve the level of scripted shows. Honestly I think the REAL answer here is that if you want to find a space between a Netflix drama and an Actual Play show, ditch the rules and make stuff like Midst, which is as discussed inspired by ttrpg/actual play spaces, but is broadly plotted out in advance. I think that approach can combine the best of both worlds, whereas I feel as though attempting to be a Netflix show will usually spend so much time trying to hide the fact that there's a table there that it will detract from the actual story.

[three--rings]

So it's time for my "alt-right dudebro gamer" Dragon Age opinions.

(Note: I'm a 45 year old womanesque queer person who mostly plays indie and Japanese games.)

(To further my cred I was super excited to meet and hear Karen and Patrick Weekes talk about this game in development at Havencon a couple years ago...it's a small queer con in Austin.)

Dragon Age is my all-time favorite game series. I adored Inquisition, though DA2 has my favorite characters overall.

My opinions about the gameplay reveal are:

The environments and background graphics and effects look awesome.

The character design still bugs me quite a bit. The faces, ESPECIALLY the female faces look Disney/anime/Overwatchy in structure. The textures looks a lot better in game than in that trailer. I miss my Not Particularly Pretty Female Characters. They have sameface now.

There's something off in the lip syncing. Mouth animations looks weird. I can't define it more than that but I noticed it with multiple characters and it through me out.

Varric's hair annoys me SO MUCH. Someone pointed out he looks like Blackwall and now I CANNOT UNSEE.

The structure of the game/quests/whatever looks fine, this reminds me of all the moments running around Haven at the beginning of Inquisition. Some of my least favorite moments, but yanno.

The combat. I'm very worried about the combat.

I am 45 years old and I have arthritis in my hands from gaming and knitting. I gave up knitting to keep gaming. I cannot play some action games. Like Hades, I tried but simply couldn't continue more than an hour because of the pain. And that's with my hands in good shape these days.

Some action games I can play, but only on easy, and sometimes only if I limit my playtime. This is simply a reality I've had to get used to, but it does kill me sometimes.

Do you know how enjoyable it was to pick up Baldur's Gate 3 and be able to put it on a higher difficulty, to be able to actually struggle through combats and have to use tricks and my brain and try and fail and do it again, all without worrying about my hands? Makes me think I need to replay Origins again.

So I'm concerned. The combat in this game is focused on attack type, dodging, parrying, countering (according to bioware)....all stuff that requires quick and frequent button mashing, which is what I can't do. So I'm looking at a game that I can probably only play on easy and maybe even not then? In my favorite game series.

The question we don't really know is how different it will be from Inquisition, and I find it hard to tell from the footage since we can't see what buttons are being pressed. But I'll say that while I love it, Inquisition was the game that first hurt my hands. It made me aware of the problem and made me have to start limiting my activity.

IDK . I just hate the idea that devs have that turn based games can't do well and are inherently not exciting.

Fucking Solas motherfucking killed Bianca! That was the first time in these reveals I've been 100% reacting as a fan. NOT BIANCA!!!! HE MUST DIE!

Oh I did like the Rook in the gameplay and his face looked good. Again I feel like it's the character design and not the engine that is the problem.

As for the plot, it's interesting that Solas has gone from Main Antagonist to Opening Antagonist and I wonder if he's actually going to transition to an ally later in the game to undo whatever the fuck has gone wrong in this clip.

I do still have some worries about the writing. "She's greatest detective ever and she has a lead on Solas." So do you think that lead is the giant glowing thing in the middle of the city spitting out demons? Did you need a great detective?

And basically nothing I've seen so far has super MOVED me, as someone with serious connections to this world and the characters, other than the fucking Bianca moment. I'm hesitantly curious about some of the new companions. And if the griffon thing had come at a moment other than me going WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THIS? in the trailer I may have been a lot more excited.

So yeah, call me a hater or whatever. But that trailer reveal CRUSHED me emotionally. I was so depressed the rest of the day Sunday. These are my true reactions to the gameplay footage today. I don't have an agenda, other than I want the game to be good and I want it to do well and my confidence in EA and Bioware is at a very low point.

I've tried to keep a realistic mindset this whole time, but keeping in mind HOW MANY PEOPLE have left Bioware, how few OGs are left, the constant turnover in leads, the game being scrapped and redone like twice from scratch. And the game industry as a whole at this time, I have to be somewhat skeptical in general.

I'm not a skeptic overall, I was both a Cyperpunk 2077 enjoyer (but not apologist) and a Starfield defender and frankly there was a lot less reason to be skeptical of those games before release. So am I going to say "well I've been a Bioware fan since KOTOR 1 released, so I'm gonna hype it up and not point out flaws I see?" No. I'm going to be honest.

I'm not a casual Dragon Age enjoyer. I can't react casually to this stuff.

Will I play the game? Almost definitely, but am I going to wait till the release reviews? Probably.

[tamelee]

Just a little rant about HOW MUCH I FUCKING HATE NARUTO FANBOYS OH MY GAAWWWDDDD besides the obvious reasons (homophobia, misogyny, incels) they worship the shit outta the worse characters ever like Shikamaru and Itachi and Hinata. Like I just saw on the Naruto Reddit (my fault, I know, but I searched something up about Naruto and the first link discussing that was Reddit) and they all used that stupid dumbass filler where Shikamaru was asking his dad about Naruto and why everyone hates him and how he doesn't hate him (even tho in CANON he did 😤) and they all said not only is he a better friend to Naruto than Sasuke ever was but (here we go again) Sasuke's more of a brother 🙄 and they also said Sasuke treated Naruto like trash and was the worst friend 🤦🏻‍♀️ like it's so insane to me the dudebros lack of brain and reading comprehension. Like how do you as a grown ass man not know the difference between what's actually real and what's not about what you're watching? Or maybe it's that they just hate Sasuke so much and how much Naruto loves him and keeps talking about him and how he's his best friend in canon (he said it way too much for me to believe that even these ugly incels couldn't understand) that they'd rather give the credit to someone else that isn't a threat and doesn't make Naruto act borderline homosexual. Oh and they obviously ignore Shikamaru's blatant misogyny and still consider him the best thing ever because why would they care 🙄 anyway end rant, sorry. I just hate this fandom 😭 I stay on my side of things mostly (well, other than this one time. But when I do I just rant about it to someone and move on)

Ah yeah it’s frustrating isn’t it? 

I think it’s obvious if you’ve read the Manga. I wonder if they’ve only seen the Anime and just don’t bother checking what is canon first. So much is changed from Kishimoto’s original. (Has anyone seen that twt discussion on filler? I’d love to read your opinions on it.) 

I mean, Hinata’s supposed backstory with Naruto is just ridiculous, but I don’t understand why people think Naruto was friends with any of them? Even if it’s shown in filler that Naruto was around them or they asked their parents about Naruto... what makes fans say they were friends? 

Sasuke was the only one who acknowledged Naruto with a smile and they weren't even friends until much later.

Right before the exams, Shikamaru tells team 7 not to die. Not because he’s worried for them, but because he believes they’re not capable, largely because of his lack of faith in Naruto. While Naruto calls them idiots and insults both Shikamaru and Hinata as he introduces them to the reader. 

'A big mouth idiot' and a 'weirdo' (I believe he actually also called her creepy but I can't find the translation, but remember when Kushina told Naruto not to go for a weird girl? She used the same words xD) And then Shikamaru immediately wanted to target Naruto in the forest of death.

Had either of them at any point been friendly to Naruto or whatever, then we would’ve known here and Naruto wouldn’t have insulted them like he did (as is his right) because he craved a connection more than anything. It’s ridiculous how the Anime at times just blatantly ignores the lonely misery Naruto had to grow up in (ALONE) in favor of these other characters. As if sugarcoating that would make any of them look less bad. And don't get me started on Hinata during that written test because it's no wonder Naruto got so confused and didn't trust her "kindness".

Regardless, I think a lot of Naruto-fans who tend to glorify any of these friendships and extending it for what it is largely do so because they side with a narrative regarding the system and don't get why Sasuke (and others) challenged it in the first place. Brushing it off like it was some evil, selfish thing. I personally like Shikamaru's development and who he is as a character in the end because him showing change might've been very helpful in actually changing the system had they worked towards that. But you know... we'll never know.