#jonrya asks

[thelustybraavosimaid]

Jon always won their sparring matches, as he was wont to do. Every loss had taught her a lesson, though—valuable lessons that aided her improvement in each subsequent meeting.

And finally, finally, she had him.

His body was underneath hers, waist caged between the trap of her thighs. She leaned forward, dagger at his throat, the taste of victory so exhilaratingly sweet that the blade trembled in her grip. In comparison, his form was still beneath her save for his breaths, steaming clouds of mist drifting in the air.

The space between them crackled with energy, with anticipation. Jon's red gaze seemed to almost glow under the rays of sunlight. Take what's yours, his eyes seemed to suggest. His palms crept to either side of her waist, an open invitation, a clear permission.

Calm as still water, she thought, using the mantra to steady herself, but it was no good. The dagger nicked the side of his neck, little drops of blood welling from the shallow cut.

She winced for him, but he only laughed. "What's a little more blood shed for you, little sister?"

She didn't find that very amusing.

[horizon-verizon]

Jon/Arya is interesting to observe from the perspective of how the story evolved and George's gardening method took him to other places. I consider myself a Dany and Jon shipper, and I prefer Jon and Arya's relationship to be purely platonic. I try to be as fair as possible, focusing on textual evidence only, as opposed to personal investment and headcanons. And when I look at the text, I believe that Jon was conceived and written as the ideal partner for Arya and not for Dany. That's why the girls he's interested in are more similar to Arya. And their bond is so unique and deep that they're able to talk in unity, and this is emphasized throughout all the books. Ironically, it might be the most balanced f/m bond because most of the big moves come from Jon. Arya is the person he's most loyal to, devoted to, and the one he prioritizes over bigger threats, and that's not going to magically go away. Arya being referred to as Jon's heart and by himself is adwd material. Ofc, it's true that there's a lot of subversion in Dany's arc. But as much as I like to delude myself by saying that Jon was written for her, I know that deep down he was written for Arya. It's uncomfortable to think about (no doubt), but he is Arya's soulmate. You can take this platonically, as I do, but it's in the current text.

Maybe when George was transitioning from one relationship to another, he ended up creating problems and not rebalancing his writing. And right now, the relationship between Jon and Dany is not designed to be one of equals, he means much more to her than she means to him. I like them truly, but I'm trying to be more pragmatic and realistic. Even if Jon does big things for Dany, I worry that it won't have as much emotional impact because it's already something is used in Jon's arc in ADWD. Do you know what I mean? It seems like there's some kind of exclusivity missing from their future relationship. And the Jon who woke up from death might not be willing to treat his love interest like a big deal? And considering all the obvious logistical issues, how can a believable, transformative super romance happen in the space of one book? Specifically, between profoundly changed people. I think George has a big challenge to solve. But I also can't just blame him because the expectations created by the fandom sound pretty unrealistic. Over time, I've become very skeptical of them and suspect that George will write it as a romance that flourishes in times of hardship but doesn't survive the aftermath, perhaps due to duty, differing perspectives and desires. I genuinely don't see Jon wanting to follow Dany to Essos or being just a consort in Westeros. If George claims to be moving forward with the endings he planned since 1991 and in 1993, he wanted Jon and Arya to end up together. Did he always plan for Jon and Dany's relationship to be in the final book? Or were their futures always separate? In acok we have the most solid proof of Jon and Dany in a romantic sense. Was it something thought up after 1993 or did it already come up in 1991? How can these ideas be reconciled? Will he transfer the ending he had in mind between Arya/Jon to Dany/Jon? These are questions I always ask myself. In a story where there is so much subversion, I don't see the secret prince/bastard ending up with the main girl and reigning together. That doesn't mean I believe they are doomed. In the outline, George explains that it is a generational saga, where the characters grow and change the world as they change themselves. An idea that aligns with George's notion of heroes, those who try to make the world a better place, regardless of the results. Dying before the age of 20 in a world where there is so much to be done doesn't seem fair to either of them. And given that, I think their story is heading towards separation. With her finishing what she started in Essos and prospering. And him helping to rebuild the North. Maybe it's not the ideal ending for shippers, but it's something that imo makes sense for their individual journeys so far.

I hope I'm not being super annoying, but I wanted to offer the perspective of someone who likes them and has difficulty in navigating with the idealized versions of them proposed by the fandom. I've been reading some of the more critical posts here and agreeing a lot with what I see.

Anon refers to this post.

Even if Jon does big things for Dany, I worry that it won't have as much emotional impact because it's already something is used in Jon's arc in ADWD. Do you know what I mean? It seems like there's some kind of exclusivity missing from their future relationship. And the Jon who woke up from death might not be willing to treat his love interest like a big deal? And considering all the obvious logistical issues, how can a believable, transformative super romance happen in the space of one book? Specifically, between profoundly changed people. I think George has a big challenge to solve. But I also can't just blame him because the expectations created by the fandom sound pretty unrealistic. Over time, I've become very skeptical of them and suspect that George will write it as a romance that flourishes in times of hardship but doesn't survive the aftermath, perhaps due to duty, differing perspectives and desires. I genuinely don't see Jon wanting to follow Dany to Essos or being just a consort in Westeros

You're not being annoying, I like what you're putitng down, too. I feel a lot of this, that i don't have much to add, really.

[hello-nichya-here]

One of the reasons I like Jonrya as a ship is because I think Jaime and Cersei shouldn't be the only look-alike sibling incest to exist, plus if Jonrya is canon then Gendry is the Robert cuckold except with a better personality. Plus, the ancient Stark ancestors did a lot of rape and plunder just like a lot of other noble houses so Jon and Arya's sibling incest would be pretty tame in comparison.

"Gendry is the Robert cuckold except with a better personality" 💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀

The simple fact is that, while it seems Martin has given up on making them canon/endgame, Jonrya is still very present in the story through subtext.

Like, Jon sees his girlfriend undress so they can have sex and he immediately thinks of her simmilarities to Arya, and the sex scene ends with her asking him full on if he'd ever sex with his own sister.

He didn't break his vows for Ned, Rob or Ygritte - yet as soon as he heard about "Arya" being married to Ramsay, that boy snapped. It wasn't even that he wanted to leave the Nightswatch - he wanted everyone to storm Winterfell with him. He became obsessed with Ramsay's line of "I want my bride back." When Melisandre is trying to talk about the matter with him, he just thinks "What do you know of my heart, what do you know of my sister?"

Arya is sure nobody else in the family will want or even recognize her - except Jon. She gives up on everything that represents her Stark identity - except for the sword Jon gave her, and even says she can't get rid of it because "Needle is Jon's smile."

They're each other's favorite person in the whole world. It just makes sense.

[atopvisenyashill]

what do you think of the possibility of a jon/arya/gendry triangle?

unless gendry is gonna have a thing for both arya and jon, i don't buy it.

i think when arya and gendry meet again, there will be some sort of romantic angle. i think it's very clear from our last glimpses at gendry that he really regrets separating from arya because he thinks he left her to be captured and married off to ramsay, and i think there's the added guilt there of him feeling like..."i should have just told her i loved her back." i know she doesn't quite say she loves him but i think that direction they gave maisie in the show, where when she says "i can be your family" "no you would be milady" that she should say it as if she's saying "i love you" is essentially the conversation arya and gendry are having in the book as well (just not so straightforward, because sometimes tv simply needs to spell it out in a way a book doesn't). arya is telling gendry, in a roundabout way that she likely doesn't even understand (i mean...she clearly doesn't understand, she's young enough to get she has like A Bond with gendry but not so old to imo realize that what she's feeling is a crush) that she loves him and she wants him to keep traveling with her because of that. and gendry is telling her, essentially, that love is not enough.

for gendry, i think there's a few things at play there - there's the class issue which is the biggest number one factor and it's something he can't ever get around, and gendry is older and not so sheltered and gets that even if arya has good intentions, like as not he's going to be making armor for her husband and not actually living with her the way she naively assumes they'll get to do until the end of time. but beyond that, i think gendry is very aware of arya's crush on him and isn't sure how to handle it. i think he recognizes the weird age gap but it's also like...it's close enough that they consider each other "peers" essentially. think of like a high school freshman and a seventh grader. they were peers in middle school, and now all of a sudden the high schooler is "inappropriate." how do you handle this as a child? do you even understand why this boundary exists? arya doesn't see it but gendry clearly does and i think that's another factor - he is interested but he feels it's taking advantage (because it is!) to encourage it. so his rejection of her, while not textually romantic, is still a romantic rejection and they both know it. but now he's heard she's been married to a man even older than he is, and this man is raping and abusing her constantly, and gendry is thinking "i should have just gotten over myself and went with her."

but if there's a love triangle (i think it's not likely because arya was meant to be much older than she is now, and that's one of the things george has since cut and is struggling with), it's not gonna be between arya, gendry, and her brother. i just don't see any evidence that either jon or arya feel romantic anything towards each other, nor do i see the point of this relationship specifically going romantic. you have the same issue with arya/gendry which is the age gap being deeply uncomfortable for one thing, and i don't think i could ever get over this specific one because jon and arya grew up together. they are best friends. it's much too jaehaerys and alysanne for me. "oh they think of each other all the time" yeah i also think about my cousin constantly that doesn't mean i want to fuck her! it just means we're very close!! do we think oberyn wanted to fuck elia?? do we think ned wanted to fuck lyanna??? no, i think it's much more likely it would be something between gendry, arya, and edric dayne. he's closer in age, he's involved in the riverlands plot that arya will be rejoining soon enough, both he and gendry are in the brotherhood, and there's a lot of anti parallels between the boys - being castle raised vs raised in flea bottom, being high born vs being base and low born, ned's very name being a potential clue to the lyanna mystery, gendry's entire existence being a clue to the twincest reveal, etc. do i think it's still likely to happen? no because george cannot slow his plot down to save his goddamn life and i do think the youngest starklings (rickon, arya, and bran) are the ones who are going to suffer the most there. i think it could have been real fun though, i'll miss the idea of arya being in a love triangle, i think she deserves some normal teenage drama after the shit she's been through. alas.

[jackoshadows]

I'm tired of people complaining that we ship Jon with "one of his relatives" like that's not just interacting with the text. Jonrya was in the original outline for the story and Jonerys happened on the show and they are the last Targs who were fine with incest. Like? Are we meant to just ignore this? They are important for his story. I get calling jon/sas truthers annoying but everyone else is just interacting with the actual text.

I just block the folks who whine on the tags about Jonrya/Jonerys/Jonsa being all the same and how poor Jon gets shipped with his relatives.

I mean, take it up with the author who has written inworld incestual ships and considers an incest ship to be one of the 'great Targaryen love stories' and has love songs being written in Westeros about tragic incestual romance.

And as you point out, had written in a JonxArya romance in the outline he send his editors - and where he was really angry when that got leaked - and in which many of the story beats are still the same in the current series.

I can't wait for TWoW where we are going to get even more Jon and Arya stuff and just reading Arya's reaction to finding out what happened to Jon and Jon going all wolfish and savage on Ramsay's ass.

Also this fandom if we get the next couple of books and Jonrya happens...

[dipperscavern]

Remember how GRRM’s original outline had Jon and Arya get together? After a love triangle with Tyrion?! Lunacy

absolute insanity. and people use that to justify jonrya 💔 like guys just because it was in a draft once in 1998 doesn’t make it moral. petyr has a sick fascination w sansa in the books, does it make it right? should we call the petyr x sansa truthers? waitttt there are none! (for a reason)

[sherlokiness]

2013 amazes me. It's so surprising there would be a post explaining how Jon and Sansa would end up together from more than a decade ago. Is Mladen one of the og jonsas perhaps?

Hi, anon! Thanks for the ask.

Reference: This post.

It really is amazing to find that post about Jon and Sansa. I'm pretty sure that's the only one(besides blindestspot also 2013) which verbosely listed rational reasons for why Jon and Sansa could be a couple. You'd be hardpressed to find one bc all the other clues of Jon ending up with a sister are all attributed to jonrya or adjacent - aegony bc of the incest. When the original outline came out in 2017, there were talks about jonrya clues being the leftover from the og timeline like Jaime being King but scrapped. I believe the author has actually switched Jon's endgame to Sansa from Arya from the first book bc of that one line "No, that's Sansa." There are also others like Sam/Sansa being a bastard's lady love and the use of radiant.

I don't think Mladen is a jonsa the way a "shipper" is. They've merely suggested a possibility for the reason George deliberately made Jon and Sansa distant but still fond of each other. Nevertheless, it's still a bit rebellious for Mladen to suggest jonsa endgame when the most prevalent ship during those years was Sansan. It was treated as a "done deal" ship like JaimeXBrienne was. Sansa hate was also rampant so saying she's gonna end up with the "hero" in the book is practically blasphemy.

[alinaastarkov]

i'm not a shipper, but i think it's blatantly obvious that grmm has something big n impactful for jonrya. we're talking about two main characters, created to complement each other from the beginning. if she were a little older, i think ppl would be more willing to at least try to analyze the text. and i suspect that, deep down... fans noticed, but prefer to pretend they didn't. like at some point, you have to ask yourself why grrm felt it necessary to revisit old ideas n make jon live a semi-triangle through his perspective that also maximizes so many emotions. jon is a v passionate young boy when it comes to arya. while the other stark children think fondly of each other, they have all this intense stuff involving soul n heart. ultimately he chose arya. his heart is his sister and his sister is his heart. and the heart is all that matters. how ridiculously obvious is that? lol we already know that he and arya are outsiders, that they are each other's favorite person. it's redundant to keep hammering the reader like that. plus using the love vs duty card at this point in the story implies that if the theme comes back, it won't have the same narrative impact bc that alternative has already been used, just like if he died again for someone else it wouldn't have the same impact either. grrm isn't exactly a subtle writer, when he feels inspired, he just writes. as he wrote: each other's memories prevent them from giving themselves completely to organizations that demand detachment from the past. jon thinks that arya's home is with him. he was tormented over her. why do their stories need to be so intertwined in affc and adwd? what implications could his dying thought associated her will bring after the resurrection? how will their already close relationship be reconfigured? could they save each other after they meet again and connect with their true selves? these are questions that many fans don't seem ready to discuss. although, if that's part of grrm's plan. it will happen eventually. he might just take the platonic route with undertones. easy as hell. in a series full of incest, a brother ends up being accused of stealing a bride and apparently nothing rings in the heads of fans who are always so dedicated to looking for the smallest details to validate dumb ass theories looool. it's bc they simply don't want to see. the crazy parallels with rhaegar (black heart/stark maiden) are also not subtle either. as i said, i don't even consider myself a shipper, i prefer jon/val and i like arya/gendry. however, these pairings obviously don't carry the same emotional weight as jonarya and weren't even set up as endgame initially, ppl liking it or not. and grrm has already confirmed that he's going for the endings he's had in mind since 1991, so these two will inevitably be more important in their respective endings than secondary characters created later. and frankly, everyone knows that they choose each other before any possible love interests. be fucking realist. it's grmm's story. there's definitely something planned for them and has put a lot of attention on their relationship for a reason. jonrya foreshadowing is so thick that i cannot see how ppl can ignore them

you are absolutely right, anon. george at no point has scrapped his ideas for these two, and in fact made it more prevalent. they've been bonded since childhood, both outsiders, honourable, listened the most to ned's lessons, stubborn, kind, have a shared journey of losing identity (something all the key 5 go through actually which can be added to the list of reasons they are still the key 5), george even made them unique in looking alike. i could go on. he wrote them both with the other in mind.

forgive me if i'm getting the numbers wrong but i think jon thinks of arya something like 47 times? and that's in 42 chapters. on average he thinks about her at least once a chapter. crazy work. arya in turn thinks about jon around 42 times across her 34 chapters. frankly, arguments that george isn't going that way, isn't highlighting their bond especially or for a particular reason, are being purposefully obtuse. and they absolutely have noticed, lol. this is why every jonsa theory rests on jonrya material, quotes about arya, arya's storyline and themes or jon's love for arya. jon and arya's entire relationship is apparently just a red herring. they simultaneously insist there's nothing romantic and that we're gross, but also take "what do you know of my heart, priestess?" and pretend it's about sansa because deep down they know it's the most romantic thing ever. it's why they insist sansa will be the girl in grey or that sansa replaced arya in the original outline's love triangle despite no evidence of this. suddenly we're supposed to believe jon-arya-tyrion became jon-sansa-tyrion despite jon never thinking of sansa, and jon spending adwd fighting imaginary duels with ramsay for arya's honour. the outline also makes clear arya's in love with jon not tyrion, so who's to say it wasn't always meant to be a love triangle from jon's perspective only, lol?

i would absolutely agree that it's becoming redunant with how often he hammers it home if the fandom wasn't like this. as it is, most of the fandom still isn't getting in. he needs to be more insane about them actually. and the constant assertion that the girl in grey, or jon's betrayal for love will happen again shows such a misreading of the text. they've recognised the devotion jon has for arya, but because they don't like her that can only be platonic, and that devotion will be transferred onto whoever they like best and this time it will be romantic, duh. as if he's gonna repeat storylines exactly just with a different character this time.

and yeah, this doesn't have to lead to anything more than a deep, platonic bond and endgame where they at least won't be apart from each other. but to insist jon and arya are platonic and "not that deep", "he loves his whole family," etc. and then literally replace arya in the story with x character is unbelievably stupid and annoying.

[pixiecactus]

If George had a big brain like me, he would let Arya marry 3 times throughout her life like Nymeria Ny Sar. First she marries Jon and will have the classic Stark-looking children that George loves so much, thus fulfilling his original OTP dream, then she marries Gendry (maybe she will have more children too!) and finally she goes to Dorne and marries Ned Dayne, after her children are older and ready to take over. She would live a long life full of love and adventures. Now, I need to kidnap their editors to make that happen

this is the first time i'm hearing about nymeria and her three husbands, and this is the first time i've seen someone bring them up as a headcanon for arya to follow, i'm honestly impressed nonnie!!

i like the idea; i really do, but i've the littlest problem with it, personally speaking. after jon comes back from being dead, i just can't see him being able to have children. like if i remember correctly, in game of thrones the only thing that jon got to show that he came back from the dead was a few more scars, and that's it; there weren't any consequences at all (the dude died, ffs; he stopped being alive and human, and surely that changes your physiological processes and responses, no shit!) that's why it is very hard for me to believe that it is going to be the same in the books, so in my opinion, jon should be arya's last husband. the one she doesn't have children with, but the one that she stays with until her time comes, and in that way we have the "soulmates" aspect of jonrya tackled.

continuing with my opinion about your headcanon, i think that arya first husband should be edric dayne, i've to admit that in my own mind (because i can't write fics at all) i've played with the idea that when arya reunites with the brotherhood without banners, she asks for him, with the proposition in mind of a betrothal between them.

it's just that i like gendry's irrational jealousy, and it's irrational in my opinion, because, yeah, from a societal standpoint, edric dayne is obviously the one that is better suited for arya in a romantic context, but the only thing we saw in the books during that time was sweet and shy little ned trying to make a new friend, nothing less and nothing more, and gendry is behaving like the biggest asshole all around to him, and edric dayne did nothing to deserve it.

so i played with that idea in my head because i wanted to recreate gendry's irrational jealousy, because it was really plotless now that i think about it. the obvious answer was that arya was looking for alliances and armed men that house dayne could provide. what for exactly? i don't remember, and i failed to consider that we have fake!arya married to ramsay bolton, and we have an elmar frey on the loose (?) crying for his princess and their broken betrothal... so maybe arya realized that she couldn't escape marriage since she wasn't even in westeros for the damned thing to happen to her, so arya decided to take things into her own hands and choose herself who is going to be her husband.

so with all of that said, yeah, i think that ned dayne should be the first husband of arya stark, and i don't think that his genes would overrule the stark look from taking place in their children. (i know that house dayne has something with their eyes, but let's ignore it for my sake, please)

anyway ned dayne dies (sorry to my nedryas!) leaving arya behind with some children, and now arya as a newly widowed lady that already has offspring, i can see that giving her the opportunity of getting married to a landless knight (gendry!) without a lot of fuss... and maybe arya and gendry have children; maybe they don't. i've a preference for gendrya taking orphans from the wars under their wing and giving them parental guidance (aka gendrya invents adoption in westeros) i forgot to say that i see this happening after the nedrya children are already grown, because when you have a lot of children, consecutively, i tend to believe that they fall in a scale of neglect; you absolutely can't care for and support all children equally if you have a lot of them, like what we have with rickon, the poor boy is even neglected by the author.

okay, so gendry has to die too; again, i see this happening after their children are grown up, so arya has a "coming back home" moment, and that home is jon's arms.

i hope you're okay with me bastardizing your headcanon, nonnie; also, i want to ask, did you make ned dayne the last husband, because nymeria's last husband was a dayne too?

also thank you for sending me this; it was a lot of fun! and sorry that it took me one month and one day to answer.

(this has nothing to do with asoiaf, but i remember reading a book series during my teen years about the typical love triangle, you know, one girl and two boys, and how she can't choose because she loves both and how they ended up doing something like girl will stay in a relationship with boy a until his death and then she will start a relationship with boy b, because both of them are inmortals and if i remember correctly boy a was bi too, i just say this because now looking back i think that they should have been a throuple, but boy b being straight really fucked that up, which is crazy because i think that was a lot of queerbaiting between the boys too)

[lucyskywalker]

I’m actually very curious to know why you don’t like jonsa! my reasons for example are: their fandom is acting way too insane for a ship that never happened and won’t ever happen; kit harington is unfortunately ugly. what are yours?

There are so many reasons that I dont even know how to begin with.

Alright. Let's go.

1st reason: It is only solely based on the show, and I really mean that. When you get to read metas and posts surrounding the ship, u realize these people never opened the books, while traying to pretend they did. I'm not being entitled. It is just obvious with what they write. Everything is taken out of contest. Especially surrounding Jon's pov and his lack of relationship with Sansa.

+ I despise the show. The only good thing about D&D's creations were the Dragons CGI and the dothraki and valyrian language, and it ends there. Out of it, everything sucks. They have rewrote all the female character in such a sexist and ridiculous way that I can't even start explaining for you.

2nd. I ship jonrya. Ik it is not everyone's cup of tea, but I do. And no. Idc if they become canon or not. I like the concept. I love their relationship. And I love what they can become. Now why the fact I ship Jonrya actually matters? Well, specially after season 7, a lot of Jonsa fans started taking things from Jon PIV that were about his love for Arya, and make it be about Sansa, with ridiculous excuses for their takes. The most commun and easy example being "What do you know of my heart, priestess? What do you know of my sister?" When Jon asks Melissandre, he is referring to Arya. And no. It is not a different interpretation. It is about Arya he is talking about. Another one was "Would you bed your sister?" And Again Jon thinks about Arya, but when you read Jonsa's metas; they say he is thinking about Sansa. Another common Jonsa take is that Jon died for his men in the books, or for Sansa, when again, this is not the case. He died for Arya. And that is explicit on the text with no room for other interpretation. No wonder why the last thing he tought was about her.

Jonsas straigh up lie about what happens in the books to support their takes, or they just read metas here on tumblr and believe it. Idk and neither do I wish to know.

Not only that. They started behaving as they had a moral high ground over jonerys and jonryas... when they don't, it is still incestuos and still problematic to modern standards - not only that, they behave entitled to this day, and attack Jonrya shippers and Jonerys shippers in a real coward way.

Many, many times, I received anon hate telling me to *kms*, slit my wrists. Someone even wished for me to get raped over a fictional ship.

My disdain over the ship is not only with the ship itself, hence taking a lot of Jon's dynamic and bound with Arya to give it to Sansa, which is really important in both of their stories and arc, but mostly about the fandom, and how I was affected by it. If it was treated only like a crackship (what book wise, actually is), as my beloved hitsukarin from bleach, I would have no problem with it.

But the community is far one of the most toxic ones I have ever seen or been in contact with. Actually, dealing with them heavily impacted my mental health.

3rd. I really didnt like Sansa way before dealing with the fandom. Since my favorite is Arya, the way Sansa treated her never vibed with me. (And no. It isn't normal sibling behavior. I am an older sister. I would never do half of the things Sansa have done, not even on 11). After book 1, I felt pity for her, but she still was the last interesting character for me, even if her Vale story was.... I guess, more berable.

After getting into the fandom, tho, Jonsas and Stansas ruined Sansa for me in every possible way as well to the point I read her chapters and I won't feel any kind of enjoyment in her journey or her character. She is my least liked character, not because "she is the most horrible person in the books" (she is not. She is far from being that. ) but because her fans made me feel terribly bitter about her. It is not logical or fair, but again, I'm not trying to be.

[silverflameataraxia]

Jon has compared his love interest to Arya four times now.

Jon could see fear and fire in her eyes. Blood ran down her white throat from where the point of his dirk had pricked her. One thrust and it's done, he told himself. He was so close he could smell onion on her breath. She is no older than I am. Something about her made him think of Arya, though they looked nothing at all alike. "Will you yield?" he asked, giving the dirk a half turn. And if she doesn't? Ygritte watched and said nothing. She was older than he'd thought at first, Jon realized; maybe as old as twenty, but short for her age, bandy-legged, with a round face, small hands, and a pug nose. Her shaggy mop of red hair stuck out in all directions. She looked plump as she crouched there, but most of that was layers of fur and wool and leather. Underneath all that she could be as skinny as Arya.

- Jon VI, ACoK

Ygritte trotted beside Jon as he slowed his garron to a walk. She claimed to be three years older than him, though she stood half a foot shorter; however old she might be, the girl was a tough little thing. Stonesnake had called her a "spearwife" when they'd captured her in the Skirling Pass. She wasn't wed and her weapon of choice was a short curved bow of horn and weirwood, but "spearwife" fit her all the same. She reminded him a little of his sister Arya, though Arya was younger and probably skinnier. It was hard to tell how plump or thin Ygritte might be, with all the furs or skins she wore.

- Jon II, ASoS

"If you kill a man, and never mean t', he's just as dead," Ygritte said stubbornly. Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever? He had never truly been a Stark, only Lord Eddard's motherless bastard, with no more place at Winterfell than Theon Greyjoy. And even that he'd lost. When a man of the Night's Watch said his words, he put aside his old family and joined a new one, but Jon Snow had lost those brothers too.

- Jon III, ASoS

And people say Jonrya has no merit 🤣

[thelustybraavosimaid]

Taylor's assorted fanfics:

JONRYA:

To Forgive, Divine:

—Aemon and Arya wed.

—Something is not right.

Aemon makes Arya a crown.

Jon and Arya reunite. Sansa watches from afar.

[partial] What am I, if not your son?

Jon's a bit too brutal for Sansa's tastes. She asks Arya about it.

Arya asks Yna about her fate.

Wed to death.

What is fighting but dancing?

Come at me. Strike me.

Observing the constellations.

Come burn me.

Aemon could only stare.

I will not let you go again.

[partial] Jon gives Arya gifts for solstice.

Arya receives a bow.

—Jon is filled with longing.

A flower like that's begging to be stolen.

"The man" his father wanted him to find was no man at all.

RHAELYA:

Rhaegar and Lyanna spar. Of course.

This man looks familiar.

JONERYS:

Daenerys and Jon stand at the edge of the world, peering into the beyond.

A place of wonders.

Threads of Destiny:

RHAEGAR WINS AUs:

—Rhaegar receives the prophecy.

—Rhaegar defies the prophecy.

—Rhaegar rides to war.

—[partial] Rhaegar prays to the gods who may hear.

—To the tower of joy.

—[partial] Thinking of his son after Lyanna's death.

Jon is reborn as himself:

—The warmth of people he longed to know.

—Where did you get this sword?

Rhaegar and the babe Aemon in the ruins of Summerhall.

You will not join the Guard.

Arya must make a sacrifice.

CATELYN & ARYA:

My brother died.

ARYA & JON:

Hearing the latest gossip.

This is a test.

—He looks a little different now.

A reunion.

Take me home, Ghost.

The gods answered his prayers.

Arya gifts Jon Robb's crown.

—Promise me you'll take care of our people.

The night wolf reunites with her brother.

NYMERIA & GHOST:

Nymmie hears her brother's silent howl. Somehow.

Your destiny, bride of ice.

DAENRYA:

You are a holy man, my lord.

JON:

You worry of her, she who has your heart.

Jon looks a little different.

Feasting with the dead. Voice of the living.

—The face he wanted to see.

The babe is a girl. He knows.

The wrong man came back from the Trident.

RHAEGAR:

To the War for the Dawn.

ENDGAME:

Treading through a field of flowers.

ARTHUR/TILLY (RDR2):

Santari is the ghost that haunts his mind.

DAGAN/SANTARI (STAR WARS JEDI: SURVIVOR):

She is the ghost that he cannot escape.

She is the ghost that he can never leave.

She watches him dwell in his own element.

Guthwulf's loyalty, in the face of madness and despair.

ELIAS/GUTHWULF (MEMORY, SORROW and THORN):

Tess's final moments.

THE LAST OF US:

[hello-nichya-here]

https://www.tumblr.com/jackoshadows/737024396279021568/theres-a-reason-adwd-is-seen-as-the-jonrya-bible?source=share

What are your thoughts on this post?

What can I say beyond:

1 - This is awesome.

2 - Jonrya for the fucking win, this book really gave us EVERYTHING we could possibly want, safe for an actual reunion between the characters.

3 - Jonsa is indeed ridiculous and laughable.

4 - I like the version we actually got way more than the drafts, and not just because of my ship. It just felt more interesting to me.

[atopvisenyashill]

What are your thoughts on jon/arya as a romantic ship?

short answer is it’s just not my thing

longer answer is

the thing about me is that i don’t actually like reading about incest unless it’s fucked up, and those two are simply two healthily loving to be the sort of incest i go for. and the age gap is a lot for me. i know i sound ridiculous saying this bc i ship a lot of incest & a lot of age gaps but like. i like targs bc they’re all fucking bonkers twisted & they have cool magical powers lmao. i don’t care that much about cersei/jaime as a unit (they’re boring to Me. i see the appeal i just don’t care) despite being very fond of both of them separately. the jonsa of my mind trauma bonds & are then separated forever (i Am a sad ending jonsa truther i’m sorry @ all the happy ending jonsas following me), and i think it’s weird that tywin and rickard both married their cousins and i also think it’s weird that fdr & eleanor had the same last name before marrying as well! i have no reason for this beyond “it squicks me out when incest is healthy” like i’m fine with it being ~sexy~ and even romantic but i need some level of psychosexual trauma or i don’t want it. jon & arya are just too much like normal siblings for me to ship them. i feel the same about every other starkling ship except *sort of* jon/robb but i have to be in a really specific mood for that. and the age gap is like - the only “healthy” age gap i like is braime and they are both fully adults by our standards and theirs when they meet. all the others involve some level of grooming and i fully admit to that, and jonrya have such an age gap where that can Only be grooming in that situation and that’s just not their dynamic - to me the whole point of their dynamic is that they have this perfect, unsullied relationship to think on when the world gets horrible and that when they meet they will be so fundamentally different but that love and that bond will remain the same. you can’t really have that if jon is lusting after his barely adolescent traumatized sister.

the great thing about jon and arya is that they are so well written as a sibling unit that i am incapable of shipping them bc they remind me too much of me and my siblings. same for sansa/arya and all the focus the starklings have on robb.

[rise-my-angel]

I can understand the anti jonsa/jonrya/jongritte but I'm wondering about the jon/daenerys thing and if you don't mind I'd like to know why (asking as someone who only watched the show & wasn't bought by their dynamic)

It actually starts with the exact same problem as Ygritte's dynamic with him. Jon arrives at a place and is taken prisoner, his weapons are taken from him, he cannot leave of his own accord and has no way home alone, and he has no choice but to try and convince the people or person keeping him hostage that they should trust him. Only for the other person to develop an attraction, and whose dynamic can only be developed as long as Jon still is not allowed to leave or fight back. Only for it to go apparently romantic, when really, his situation has not changed if he resists.

If he is with Ygritte, and he shows signs of resistence or being against her cause, she and the others will kill him, and he knows it.

If he is with Dany, and he shows signs of resistence or being against her cause, she and her dragons will kill him, and he knows it.

Remember, when he goes beyond the Wall (gods protect me thinking about that episode), he literally has to leave by force because she still refused to give him "permission" to leave the island she's kept him trapped on for weeks. Their reunion is not romantic, and neither is them getting together. Up until a day ago, he was her prisoner and he still is at the mercy of her dragons.

If at any moment Jon truly resists her, she will kill him. There is not a single moment of their relationship where she didn't consider Jons life forefit if he didn't meet her exact expectations of total loyalty. Just like Ygritte did.

What it comes off to me, is that Jon has no interest in her whatsoever nor does he want to be with her, but he knows he is still her prisoner and even worse, she has dragons that could destroy his family and kingdom if she so chooses, if he stood against her. I think Jon realized Dany was interested in him, and realized that he was in a situation just like Ygritte. Trapped, and forced to play along much to the determent of his own mental health.

Jon is never not at Dany's total mercy if he displeases her.

Any time they get together it is clearly Dany summoning Jon, and one time it's very bad. Jon is extremely drunk to the point he can barley stand on two feet, and she is stone cold sober. She tries to get him to have sex with her, he resists and she still tries and it only ends because it turns into an argument about another topic all together.

If Jon was trying to convince a drunk girl telling him no, to have sex with him, we all know what we'd call that. What we'd call him. I do not consider Jon being a man, and Dany being a woman, to change that dynamic. Dany also has all the power of him as a Queen who forced him to bend the knee, and she has two dragons in his home that will kill him and anyone else she chooses whenver she wants.

Jon is literally unable to consent to this relationship at any point and the literal only way out he had, was to unironically kill her.

If you look through my anti jonerys tag you can find other posts I've made going into the details about why I think they do not work fundementally as characters in general, but I stand firmly against the show relationship for these reasons.

It's the same prisoner/abuse/rape situation as with Ygritte, but even worse, because Dany can and would use her dragons on him, his family, and his people if she decided Jon wasn't loyal enough anymore.

I don't think Jon ever wanted to be with her, in any way shape or form. But was forced to pretend to because he was her prisoner from the moment he stepped onto Dragonstone until the moment he killed her.

I think as for the books, they just do not work as a couple in even a functional manner and there is no hint that they ever even would become a couple in the first place and that shipping them in the books is pure jonsa style wish fufillment fanon.

Again, my anti jonerys tag has many posts about this topic since I've tackled it at many angles over the past few months if you're interested further in what I think!

[buttercuparry]

Honestly Arya does have that Persephone parallel doesn't she? And you have Demeter, Lady Stoneheart, searching for her daughter combing through the Riverlands. I have heard that the og myth was about the bond between mothers and daughters and the mothers' rage and grief at losing daughters to violence ( often of the sexual kind). No matter what the retelling of it is: be it of the romantic kind with Hades/Persephone being the subject or more in line with tradition- one thing is for sure that Demeter's rage brought on destruction that would have wiped off mankind.

When I think of Riverlands, I imagine a land associated with a bountiful of harvest and Catelyn Tully has been the daughter of its leige lord. Now the war has reduced it to a husk and Catelyn believes her own family is lost to her as well. Death-resurrection-journey to the "underworld" are so in line with the weaving of the myth in the story. Demeter rises vengeful, cold and cruel, killing mercilessly and searching for the three headed cerberus who has kidnapped her daughter from right under the nose of BwB. Arya's journey ultimately ends with the Hound and again we find the recall of greek myth of Styx/Charon when she crosses the Narrow Sea with the offering of the iron coin for the ferry. Finally she reaches the HoBaW and there to cement her right to stay she fearlessly kisses the skull and bites on the worm ( pomegranate seeds?). I also find the structure of the HoBaW interesting. You have the Temple structure sitting on the very top of the carved stone and visible but there are winding levels that descend down into the heart of the stone/earth...it kind of reminds me of Dante's description of hell- circular levels descending into the earth ( as far as I remember?).

Further you have a reflection of it in the far North ( again death-resurrection which we know is going to feature in Jon's storyline). For us Jonrya shippers, we sometimes can reflect on it as death and the maiden thing going on, but if we don't go the shippy way and see it as familial, we again have Jon wondering about Arya facing violence in her marriage bed. The theme of stealing the bride carries on both with Jon sending Mance to rescue "Arya" and after Jeyne Poole escapes, we have Ramsay asking for his bride back whom he thinks the bastard at the Wall has stolen from him ( going the shippy way, we have Jon repeating the phrase "I want my bride back over and over again" too). It's so interesting that both the characters who have gone the death/resurrection way or is going to go the death/resurrection way is looking for Arya. One terrorizing the Riverlands and the other making alliances to send armies to knock at Ramsay's door, while Arya herself is at a liminal space between life and death. I don't think Grrm has created the order of the silent sisters just for the fun of it- they are known to be the Stranger's wives and you have this imagery of women marrying death throughout. But in any case Grrm is known for his subversive tropes and if Arya has the Persephone thing going on, then instead of barreness of the HoBaW and the silent sisters there is a possibility of a full life whatever that may mean for Arya.