#jonrya asks

[horizon-verizon]

Jon/Arya is interesting to observe from the perspective of how the story evolved and George's gardening method took him to other places. I consider myself a Dany and Jon shipper, and I prefer Jon and Arya's relationship to be purely platonic. I try to be as fair as possible, focusing on textual evidence only, as opposed to personal investment and headcanons. And when I look at the text, I believe that Jon was conceived and written as the ideal partner for Arya and not for Dany. That's why the girls he's interested in are more similar to Arya. And their bond is so unique and deep that they're able to talk in unity, and this is emphasized throughout all the books. Ironically, it might be the most balanced f/m bond because most of the big moves come from Jon. Arya is the person he's most loyal to, devoted to, and the one he prioritizes over bigger threats, and that's not going to magically go away. Arya being referred to as Jon's heart and by himself is adwd material. Ofc, it's true that there's a lot of subversion in Dany's arc. But as much as I like to delude myself by saying that Jon was written for her, I know that deep down he was written for Arya. It's uncomfortable to think about (no doubt), but he is Arya's soulmate. You can take this platonically, as I do, but it's in the current text.

Maybe when George was transitioning from one relationship to another, he ended up creating problems and not rebalancing his writing. And right now, the relationship between Jon and Dany is not designed to be one of equals, he means much more to her than she means to him. I like them truly, but I'm trying to be more pragmatic and realistic. Even if Jon does big things for Dany, I worry that it won't have as much emotional impact because it's already something is used in Jon's arc in ADWD. Do you know what I mean? It seems like there's some kind of exclusivity missing from their future relationship. And the Jon who woke up from death might not be willing to treat his love interest like a big deal? And considering all the obvious logistical issues, how can a believable, transformative super romance happen in the space of one book? Specifically, between profoundly changed people. I think George has a big challenge to solve. But I also can't just blame him because the expectations created by the fandom sound pretty unrealistic. Over time, I've become very skeptical of them and suspect that George will write it as a romance that flourishes in times of hardship but doesn't survive the aftermath, perhaps due to duty, differing perspectives and desires. I genuinely don't see Jon wanting to follow Dany to Essos or being just a consort in Westeros. If George claims to be moving forward with the endings he planned since 1991 and in 1993, he wanted Jon and Arya to end up together. Did he always plan for Jon and Dany's relationship to be in the final book? Or were their futures always separate? In acok we have the most solid proof of Jon and Dany in a romantic sense. Was it something thought up after 1993 or did it already come up in 1991? How can these ideas be reconciled? Will he transfer the ending he had in mind between Arya/Jon to Dany/Jon? These are questions I always ask myself. In a story where there is so much subversion, I don't see the secret prince/bastard ending up with the main girl and reigning together. That doesn't mean I believe they are doomed. In the outline, George explains that it is a generational saga, where the characters grow and change the world as they change themselves. An idea that aligns with George's notion of heroes, those who try to make the world a better place, regardless of the results. Dying before the age of 20 in a world where there is so much to be done doesn't seem fair to either of them. And given that, I think their story is heading towards separation. With her finishing what she started in Essos and prospering. And him helping to rebuild the North. Maybe it's not the ideal ending for shippers, but it's something that imo makes sense for their individual journeys so far.

I hope I'm not being super annoying, but I wanted to offer the perspective of someone who likes them and has difficulty in navigating with the idealized versions of them proposed by the fandom. I've been reading some of the more critical posts here and agreeing a lot with what I see.

Anon refers to this post.

Even if Jon does big things for Dany, I worry that it won't have as much emotional impact because it's already something is used in Jon's arc in ADWD. Do you know what I mean? It seems like there's some kind of exclusivity missing from their future relationship. And the Jon who woke up from death might not be willing to treat his love interest like a big deal? And considering all the obvious logistical issues, how can a believable, transformative super romance happen in the space of one book? Specifically, between profoundly changed people. I think George has a big challenge to solve. But I also can't just blame him because the expectations created by the fandom sound pretty unrealistic. Over time, I've become very skeptical of them and suspect that George will write it as a romance that flourishes in times of hardship but doesn't survive the aftermath, perhaps due to duty, differing perspectives and desires. I genuinely don't see Jon wanting to follow Dany to Essos or being just a consort in Westeros

You're not being annoying, I like what you're putitng down, too. I feel a lot of this, that i don't have much to add, really.

[thelustybraavosimaid]

Jon always won their sparring matches, as he was wont to do. Every loss had taught her a lesson, though—valuable lessons that aided her improvement in each subsequent meeting.

And finally, finally, she had him.

His body was underneath hers, waist caged between the trap of her thighs. She leaned forward, dagger at his throat, the taste of victory so exhilaratingly sweet that the blade trembled in her grip. In comparison, his form was still beneath her save for his breaths, steaming clouds of mist drifting in the air.

The space between them crackled with energy, with anticipation. Jon's red gaze seemed to almost glow under the rays of sunlight. Take what's yours, his eyes seemed to suggest. His palms crept to either side of her waist, an open invitation, a clear permission.

Calm as still water, she thought, using the mantra to steady herself, but it was no good. The dagger nicked the side of his neck, little drops of blood welling from the shallow cut.

She winced for him, but he only laughed. "What's a little more blood shed for you, little sister?"

She didn't find that very amusing.

[needlesmercy]

Fuck the noise. Jonrya will always be soulmates. Grrm's favorite phase in the books is literally about their bond and love for each other. Nothing can change that

Someone tell these asoiaf fans pleek

[hello-nichya-here]

One of the reasons I like Jonrya as a ship is because I think Jaime and Cersei shouldn't be the only look-alike sibling incest to exist, plus if Jonrya is canon then Gendry is the Robert cuckold except with a better personality. Plus, the ancient Stark ancestors did a lot of rape and plunder just like a lot of other noble houses so Jon and Arya's sibling incest would be pretty tame in comparison.

"Gendry is the Robert cuckold except with a better personality" ����💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀

The simple fact is that, while it seems Martin has given up on making them canon/endgame, Jonrya is still very present in the story through subtext.

Like, Jon sees his girlfriend undress so they can have sex and he immediately thinks of her simmilarities to Arya, and the sex scene ends with her asking him full on if he'd ever sex with his own sister.

He didn't break his vows for Ned, Rob or Ygritte - yet as soon as he heard about "Arya" being married to Ramsay, that boy snapped. It wasn't even that he wanted to leave the Nightswatch - he wanted everyone to storm Winterfell with him. He became obsessed with Ramsay's line of "I want my bride back." When Melisandre is trying to talk about the matter with him, he just thinks "What do you know of my heart, what do you know of my sister?"

Arya is sure nobody else in the family will want or even recognize her - except Jon. She gives up on everything that represents her Stark identity - except for the sword Jon gave her, and even says she can't get rid of it because "Needle is Jon's smile."

They're each other's favorite person in the whole world. It just makes sense.

[virtual-dragon-almond-bakery]

I dislike j0nerys but god damn it I absolutely HATE Jon and his SISTERS!!!! Like that’s absolutely f*** gross!!! They lived together in winterfell, saw each other every single day and have always thought about each other as SIBLINGS!!!

J0nerys is a crack ship in the books, I don’t even think it’s going to happen. They don’t even know each other, they have never met, and I doubt they will. And even though they’re most likely family, THEY HAVENT EVEN MET!!! They don’t even know about each others existence. And while most noble families in Westeros had uncle/aunt and niece/nephew, or cousins marriages. I dunno if they ever were like “you’ll marry your father’s sibling” that’s like a hella close relative 🤣

But anyway I highly doubt something’s gonna happen there, it doesn’t worry me, i just don’t think it’ll ever happen. And while I think he’s the son of rha3g4r and Lyanna, I don’t see how he would find out, if he’ll believe it, or how Da3n3rys would find out. Because again, they’re in different continents!!!

But Jon and his sisters that’s just plain awful, I don’t care if they’re half siblings, or cousins. They grew up together!!!! In the same castle!!!! As siblings!!! It’s not like he was their bastard brother that visited every now and then, he was there when they were (except obviously Robb) born and he saw them grow up every single day of their lives, and loves them very much AS SIBLINGS!!! If there’s one thing those girls are sure about is that they’re siblings and he considers them as such and would protect them!!! And he knows that he’s the only one left to protect them!!!! So to me, that’s just vile. Why twist their relationship and make it less valid because they’re JUST siblings??? Fraternal love is stronger, specially as an older sibling towards your little siblings. I don’t know why they can’t see and understand that. There’s no underlying romance there!!!

And this would mostly be about the books, because I know they still have hope that Jon will chose and keep one of his sisters 🙄 The show happened, it was awful for everyone, no matter who they liked, shipped or whatever, it’s over, let’s move to the books. And by the way IN THE SHOW THEY ALSO HAD A REGULAR SIBLINGS RELATIONSHIP!!! DON’T TRY AND MAKE IT ROMANTIC!!!!!

Anon, I have truly nothing to say here, for you put it so eloquently in words.

[atopvisenyashill]

what do you think of the possibility of a jon/arya/gendry triangle?

unless gendry is gonna have a thing for both arya and jon, i don't buy it.

i think when arya and gendry meet again, there will be some sort of romantic angle. i think it's very clear from our last glimpses at gendry that he really regrets separating from arya because he thinks he left her to be captured and married off to ramsay, and i think there's the added guilt there of him feeling like..."i should have just told her i loved her back." i know she doesn't quite say she loves him but i think that direction they gave maisie in the show, where when she says "i can be your family" "no you would be milady" that she should say it as if she's saying "i love you" is essentially the conversation arya and gendry are having in the book as well (just not so straightforward, because sometimes tv simply needs to spell it out in a way a book doesn't). arya is telling gendry, in a roundabout way that she likely doesn't even understand (i mean...she clearly doesn't understand, she's young enough to get she has like A Bond with gendry but not so old to imo realize that what she's feeling is a crush) that she loves him and she wants him to keep traveling with her because of that. and gendry is telling her, essentially, that love is not enough.

for gendry, i think there's a few things at play there - there's the class issue which is the biggest number one factor and it's something he can't ever get around, and gendry is older and not so sheltered and gets that even if arya has good intentions, like as not he's going to be making armor for her husband and not actually living with her the way she naively assumes they'll get to do until the end of time. but beyond that, i think gendry is very aware of arya's crush on him and isn't sure how to handle it. i think he recognizes the weird age gap but it's also like...it's close enough that they consider each other "peers" essentially. think of like a high school freshman and a seventh grader. they were peers in middle school, and now all of a sudden the high schooler is "inappropriate." how do you handle this as a child? do you even understand why this boundary exists? arya doesn't see it but gendry clearly does and i think that's another factor - he is interested but he feels it's taking advantage (because it is!) to encourage it. so his rejection of her, while not textually romantic, is still a romantic rejection and they both know it. but now he's heard she's been married to a man even older than he is, and this man is raping and abusing her constantly, and gendry is thinking "i should have just gotten over myself and went with her."

but if there's a love triangle (i think it's not likely because arya was meant to be much older than she is now, and that's one of the things george has since cut and is struggling with), it's not gonna be between arya, gendry, and her brother. i just don't see any evidence that either jon or arya feel romantic anything towards each other, nor do i see the point of this relationship specifically going romantic. you have the same issue with arya/gendry which is the age gap being deeply uncomfortable for one thing, and i don't think i could ever get over this specific one because jon and arya grew up together. they are best friends. it's much too jaehaerys and alysanne for me. "oh they think of each other all the time" yeah i also think about my cousin constantly that doesn't mean i want to fuck her! it just means we're very close!! do we think oberyn wanted to fuck elia?? do we think ned wanted to fuck lyanna??? no, i think it's much more likely it would be something between gendry, arya, and edric dayne. he's closer in age, he's involved in the riverlands plot that arya will be rejoining soon enough, both he and gendry are in the brotherhood, and there's a lot of anti parallels between the boys - being castle raised vs raised in flea bottom, being high born vs being base and low born, ned's very name being a potential clue to the lyanna mystery, gendry's entire existence being a clue to the twincest reveal, etc. do i think it's still likely to happen? no because george cannot slow his plot down to save his goddamn life and i do think the youngest starklings (rickon, arya, and bran) are the ones who are going to suffer the most there. i think it could have been real fun though, i'll miss the idea of arya being in a love triangle, i think she deserves some normal teenage drama after the shit she's been through. alas.

[dipperscavern]

Remember how GRRM’s original outline had Jon and Arya get together? After a love triangle with Tyrion?! Lunacy

absolute insanity. and people use that to justify jonrya 💔 like guys just because it was in a draft once in 1998 doesn’t make it moral. petyr has a sick fascination w sansa in the books, does it make it right? should we call the petyr x sansa truthers? waitttt there are none! (for a reason)

[izzy140105]

One half would probably hate Isabelle (oc) for getting in the way of their incestuous ships... *cough* jonerys, jonsa and jonrya *cough*, what was that?? Must've been the wind...

The other half would find her hot and call her things like "mother" lmao...

If my OC was canon how would the fandom treat them?

What kind of theories would people make? Who would they ship them with? Popular fandom headcanons? Ect.

[sherlokiness]

2013 amazes me. It's so surprising there would be a post explaining how Jon and Sansa would end up together from more than a decade ago. Is Mladen one of the og jonsas perhaps?

Hi, anon! Thanks for the ask.

Reference: This post.

It really is amazing to find that post about Jon and Sansa. I'm pretty sure that's the only one(besides blindestspot also 2013) which verbosely listed rational reasons for why Jon and Sansa could be a couple. You'd be hardpressed to find one bc all the other clues of Jon ending up with a sister are all attributed to jonrya or adjacent - aegony bc of the incest. When the original outline came out in 2017, there were talks about jonrya clues being the leftover from the og timeline like Jaime being King but scrapped. I believe the author has actually switched Jon's endgame to Sansa from Arya from the first book bc of that one line "No, that's Sansa." There are also others like Sam/Sansa being a bastard's lady love and the use of radiant.

I don't think Mladen is a jonsa the way a "shipper" is. They've merely suggested a possibility for the reason George deliberately made Jon and Sansa distant but still fond of each other. Nevertheless, it's still a bit rebellious for Mladen to suggest jonsa endgame when the most prevalent ship during those years was Sansan. It was treated as a "done deal" ship like JaimeXBrienne was. Sansa hate was also rampant so saying she's gonna end up with the "hero" in the book is practically blasphemy.

[pixiecactus]

If George had a big brain like me, he would let Arya marry 3 times throughout her life like Nymeria Ny Sar. First she marries Jon and will have the classic Stark-looking children that George loves so much, thus fulfilling his original OTP dream, then she marries Gendry (maybe she will have more children too!) and finally she goes to Dorne and marries Ned Dayne, after her children are older and ready to take over. She would live a long life full of love and adventures. Now, I need to kidnap their editors to make that happen

this is the first time i'm hearing about nymeria and her three husbands, and this is the first time i've seen someone bring them up as a headcanon for arya to follow, i'm honestly impressed nonnie!!

i like the idea; i really do, but i've the littlest problem with it, personally speaking. after jon comes back from being dead, i just can't see him being able to have children. like if i remember correctly, in game of thrones the only thing that jon got to show that he came back from the dead was a few more scars, and that's it; there weren't any consequences at all (the dude died, ffs; he stopped being alive and human, and surely that changes your physiological processes and responses, no shit!) that's why it is very hard for me to believe that it is going to be the same in the books, so in my opinion, jon should be arya's last husband. the one she doesn't have children with, but the one that she stays with until her time comes, and in that way we have the "soulmates" aspect of jonrya tackled.

continuing with my opinion about your headcanon, i think that arya first husband should be edric dayne, i've to admit that in my own mind (because i can't write fics at all) i've played with the idea that when arya reunites with the brotherhood without banners, she asks for him, with the proposition in mind of a betrothal between them.

it's just that i like gendry's irrational jealousy, and it's irrational in my opinion, because, yeah, from a societal standpoint, edric dayne is obviously the one that is better suited for arya in a romantic context, but the only thing we saw in the books during that time was sweet and shy little ned trying to make a new friend, nothing less and nothing more, and gendry is behaving like the biggest asshole all around to him, and edric dayne did nothing to deserve it.

so i played with that idea in my head because i wanted to recreate gendry's irrational jealousy, because it was really plotless now that i think about it. the obvious answer was that arya was looking for alliances and armed men that house dayne could provide. what for exactly? i don't remember, and i failed to consider that we have fake!arya married to ramsay bolton, and we have an elmar frey on the loose (?) crying for his princess and their broken betrothal... so maybe arya realized that she couldn't escape marriage since she wasn't even in westeros for the damned thing to happen to her, so arya decided to take things into her own hands and choose herself who is going to be her husband.

so with all of that said, yeah, i think that ned dayne should be the first husband of arya stark, and i don't think that his genes would overrule the stark look from taking place in their children. (i know that house dayne has something with their eyes, but let's ignore it for my sake, please)

anyway ned dayne dies (sorry to my nedryas!) leaving arya behind with some children, and now arya as a newly widowed lady that already has offspring, i can see that giving her the opportunity of getting married to a landless knight (gendry!) without a lot of fuss... and maybe arya and gendry have children; maybe they don't. i've a preference for gendrya taking orphans from the wars under their wing and giving them parental guidance (aka gendrya invents adoption in westeros) i forgot to say that i see this happening after the nedrya children are already grown, because when you have a lot of children, consecutively, i tend to believe that they fall in a scale of neglect; you absolutely can't care for and support all children equally if you have a lot of them, like what we have with rickon, the poor boy is even neglected by the author.

okay, so gendry has to die too; again, i see this happening after their children are grown up, so arya has a "coming back home" moment, and that home is jon's arms.

i hope you're okay with me bastardizing your headcanon, nonnie; also, i want to ask, did you make ned dayne the last husband, because nymeria's last husband was a dayne too?

also thank you for sending me this; it was a lot of fun! and sorry that it took me one month and one day to answer.

(this has nothing to do with asoiaf, but i remember reading a book series during my teen years about the typical love triangle, you know, one girl and two boys, and how she can't choose because she loves both and how they ended up doing something like girl will stay in a relationship with boy a until his death and then she will start a relationship with boy b, because both of them are inmortals and if i remember correctly boy a was bi too, i just say this because now looking back i think that they should have been a throuple, but boy b being straight really fucked that up, which is crazy because i think that was a lot of queerbaiting between the boys too)

[alinaastarkov]

I kind of fell down the jonrya rabbit hole and would like to hear more opinions. I'm not convinced that George gave up on JonArya. No one has proof of this or can pinpoint exactly where he was abandoned. No character has replaced Arya's importance to Jon and vice versa, and I don't think that will ever happen. Their relationship is the strongest in asoaif and is treated as a driving force and something separate from the rest, and I ask myself why. What is the reason for so much emphasis? ADWD is the book with the most clues, since Jon spends a lot of time agonizing over her. He dies for her in the end, and she is his last thought. Not to mention that famous line about the heart, which is very romantic coded. The foreshadowing didn't vanish with the first books, and I truly wonder w h y. Does anyone have any interesting theories about them or speculation?

When I re-read an AMA from George, I was quite surprised by this response.

Has there been a character that you have given a reprieve to, or maybe deviated from the path you originally were going to send them on? If so, whom?

No, not really.

In some cases the chronologies have diverged from what I originally intended, but the overall character arcs remain the same.

This was years after the 1993 outline. And in 2016, he stated that he would continue with the endings he had in mind since 1991.

Also, this is from SSM:

Question: How different is the plot from what he originally envisioned?

GRRM: Not different - just more of it. It has grown in complexity but he likes it that way because it feels real to him. - SSM 2010

Some more quotes.

"But the size is different, and I've introduced some other elements to the books, but it's still the same characters, the '91 characters."

"Some major characters — yes, I always had plans, what Tyrion's arc was gonna be through this, what Arya's arc was gonna be through this, what Jon Snow's arc is gonna be. "

"Who is the most major character you've changed you mind about your plans for?

I don't want to reveal what I've planned for some of these characters, but I'm pretty well on track with most of the major characters. It's minor characters like Bronn that assume greater importance."

After a re-reading, I started to wonder… Why did they give up on being together if they did everything to be by each other's side? They are their true selves with each other, so why shouldn't they be together? Or share their lives together? I've seen some people claim that their relationship will never be the same. And yes, that's true. But isn't that applicable to any relationship in asoiaf? They are deliberately written as something too deep and an intense transcendental bond that no one else has; if they have no chance of thriving, no one does. And as much as George is accused of doing things for shock value, he cares about consistency. He definitely doesn't treat this relationship as trivial to be shattered. Jon is Arya's first priority. He is her home. They love each other unconditionally, and there’s no one Jon loves as much as he does Arya, no doubt on that. My impression is that George may have created an infrastructure for them to end up together somehow. Not necessarily in the way he initially envisioned it, but as soulmates who find refuge in each other and are saved by their unique bond that inspires them to live. Resurrected Jon will probably take the FitzChivalry Farseer route. I doubt he'll come back super damaged because he needs to be reasonably okay for some plot lines. And George always intended for all 5 main characters to survive so.

I would be more inclined to think that everything was scrapped if Jon's arc in ADWD was vastly different. George not only deepened their connection and recycled an old plot line, but also introduced powerful new themes. They are each other's hearts and homes. This approach is very rare in this universe. And no other relationship is treated with this same importance. Why should we pay so much attention to them? What is George's point in this? Like, a lot of time passed between 1993 and 2011. He had more than enough time to rewrite Jon's arc and remove Arya's influence. But he continues to keep these characters intensely and emotionally connected throughout all the books. If he accidentally wrote them as soulmates, wouldn't it be easier to remove it after the first book? I have some vague ideas of what he's going to do with them. But I genuinely don't think it's out of the question as so many fans confidently claim

sorry for taking so long to answer this anon! it was mostly because i agree with everything you said and couldn't think of what to add. i agree there seems to be consensus that george initially planned for them but changed his mind, probably after the first/second book. however, as you say, it then makes no sense that jon's adwd arc is the way it is. for me, it's the most explicitly romantic we get, with many of jon's thoughts (i want my bride back, imagining arya in ramsay's bed, winter's lady etc.) being things a brother cannot innocently think about his sister (despite what some people say and i worry about their relationship with their sibling tbh). if it was scrapped, i wonder how they explain adwd? (they mostly don't, explain it away as platonic, or pretend these thoughts are just about his 'family'). there's also the fact that george's affc outline (before affc and adwd were split) had jon going to and probably dying in hardhome, removing his rescue of arya and betrayal because of that entirely. george explicitly altered his adwd plot to include more arya. i frankly would be amazed at the ga's lack of awareness of the books they claim to love if j*nsas didn't exist

[silverflameataraxia]

Jon has compared his love interest to Arya four times now.

Jon could see fear and fire in her eyes. Blood ran down her white throat from where the point of his dirk had pricked her. One thrust and it's done, he told himself. He was so close he could smell onion on her breath. She is no older than I am. Something about her made him think of Arya, though they looked nothing at all alike. "Will you yield?" he asked, giving the dirk a half turn. And if she doesn't? Ygritte watched and said nothing. She was older than he'd thought at first, Jon realized; maybe as old as twenty, but short for her age, bandy-legged, with a round face, small hands, and a pug nose. Her shaggy mop of red hair stuck out in all directions. She looked plump as she crouched there, but most of that was layers of fur and wool and leather. Underneath all that she could be as skinny as Arya.

- Jon VI, ACoK

Ygritte trotted beside Jon as he slowed his garron to a walk. She claimed to be three years older than him, though she stood half a foot shorter; however old she might be, the girl was a tough little thing. Stonesnake had called her a "spearwife" when they'd captured her in the Skirling Pass. She wasn't wed and her weapon of choice was a short curved bow of horn and weirwood, but "spearwife" fit her all the same. She reminded him a little of his sister Arya, though Arya was younger and probably skinnier. It was hard to tell how plump or thin Ygritte might be, with all the furs or skins she wore.

- Jon II, ASoS

"If you kill a man, and never mean t', he's just as dead," Ygritte said stubbornly. Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever? He had never truly been a Stark, only Lord Eddard's motherless bastard, with no more place at Winterfell than Theon Greyjoy. And even that he'd lost. When a man of the Night's Watch said his words, he put aside his old family and joined a new one, but Jon Snow had lost those brothers too.

- Jon III, ASoS

And people say Jonrya has no merit 🤣

[lucyskywalker]

I’m actually very curious to know why you don’t like jonsa! my reasons for example are: their fandom is acting way too insane for a ship that never happened and won’t ever happen; kit harington is unfortunately ugly. what are yours?

There are so many reasons that I dont even know how to begin with.

Alright. Let's go.

1st reason: It is only solely based on the show, and I really mean that. When you get to read metas and posts surrounding the ship, u realize these people never opened the books, while traying to pretend they did. I'm not being entitled. It is just obvious with what they write. Everything is taken out of contest. Especially surrounding Jon's pov and his lack of relationship with Sansa.

+ I despise the show. The only good thing about D&D's creations were the Dragons CGI and the dothraki and valyrian language, and it ends there. Out of it, everything sucks. They have rewrote all the female character in such a sexist and ridiculous way that I can't even start explaining for you.

2nd. I ship jonrya. Ik it is not everyone's cup of tea, but I do. And no. Idc if they become canon or not. I like the concept. I love their relationship. And I love what they can become. Now why the fact I ship Jonrya actually matters? Well, specially after season 7, a lot of Jonsa fans started taking things from Jon PIV that were about his love for Arya, and make it be about Sansa, with ridiculous excuses for their takes. The most commun and easy example being "What do you know of my heart, priestess? What do you know of my sister?" When Jon asks Melissandre, he is referring to Arya. And no. It is not a different interpretation. It is about Arya he is talking about. Another one was "Would you bed your sister?" And Again Jon thinks about Arya, but when you read Jonsa's metas; they say he is thinking about Sansa. Another common Jonsa take is that Jon died for his men in the books, or for Sansa, when again, this is not the case. He died for Arya. And that is explicit on the text with no room for other interpretation. No wonder why the last thing he tought was about her.

Jonsas straigh up lie about what happens in the books to support their takes, or they just read metas here on tumblr and believe it. Idk and neither do I wish to know.

Not only that. They started behaving as they had a moral high ground over jonerys and jonryas... when they don't, it is still incestuos and still problematic to modern standards - not only that, they behave entitled to this day, and attack Jonrya shippers and Jonerys shippers in a real coward way.

Many, many times, I received anon hate telling me to *kms*, slit my wrists. Someone even wished for me to get raped over a fictional ship.

My disdain over the ship is not only with the ship itself, hence taking a lot of Jon's dynamic and bound with Arya to give it to Sansa, which is really important in both of their stories and arc, but mostly about the fandom, and how I was affected by it. If it was treated only like a crackship (what book wise, actually is), as my beloved hitsukarin from bleach, I would have no problem with it.

But the community is far one of the most toxic ones I have ever seen or been in contact with. Actually, dealing with them heavily impacted my mental health.

3rd. I really didnt like Sansa way before dealing with the fandom. Since my favorite is Arya, the way Sansa treated her never vibed with me. (And no. It isn't normal sibling behavior. I am an older sister. I would never do half of the things Sansa have done, not even on 11). After book 1, I felt pity for her, but she still was the last interesting character for me, even if her Vale story was.... I guess, more berable.

After getting into the fandom, tho, Jonsas and Stansas ruined Sansa for me in every possible way as well to the point I read her chapters and I won't feel any kind of enjoyment in her journey or her character. She is my least liked character, not because "she is the most horrible person in the books" (she is not. She is far from being that. ) but because her fans made me feel terribly bitter about her. It is not logical or fair, but again, I'm not trying to be.

[hello-nichya-here]

Maybe I'm stating the obvious here, but I think Sansa and Arya got some subconscious daddy kink (no shaming btw) because why else would Sansa fall for a man mistaken for her father and Arya is so attached to Jon, the Stark son who looks most like Ned. There's also Jon basing all his crushes on Arya, who unbeknownst to him, is like his bio mom, Lyanna, in both looks and personality. Overall, I find it very interesting.

As much I'm a total slut for a good Daddy kink, and would love some Sansan and Jonrya fics with that, I don't think that's what's going on.

Unlike something like Jon explicitly comparing his girlfriend's body to Arya's, when she's undressing for him so they can have sex, these other situations have some key differences.

Like you said, Jon doesn't even know Lyanna is his mom, so him being drawn to Arya, who has a simmilar personality to her aunt, doesn't strike me as his brain doing that level of freudian connections, but rather the simple fact that, as her son, Jon has things in common with Lyanna because one's personality is a combo of nature (aka genetics) and nurture - so naturally he gets along well with (and was originally going to fall for) a person that is a lot like the woman he himself resembles. It's more a matter of compatibility than having some complex about his mother.

The same goes for Arya liking Jon, who is a lot like Ned - who she also has a lot in common with. They also have the added bonus of feeling like outcasts. Arya doesn't like typical "girly" things, Jon is a bastard. They don't fit in, so they stick together. Of course they're closer to each other than to their siblings - all of which have lots in common with Ned.

Their looks are also not that relevant, because they are close friends, and were going to be into each other in the original plans, because of their personalities (See Jon liking Val and Ygritte, who look nothing like each other or Arya, but have the same kind of personality he's naturally drawn to) so them happening to resemble each other's parents is not really significant (even if it becomes funny considering they're cousins/siblings).

Sansa mistaking Sandor for her dad is a bit more sus considering all the romance themes in her dynamic with him, but the context in which it happens is one of their few interactions that does NOT have a romantic coding. People are scared of her wolf, Lady - aka one of the magical creatures that protect the Starks - and she's feeling unsafe around all these strangers that are looking at her weird, and some that ARE being somewhat thretening... and then Sandor Clegane, the Hound, comes in, and she assumes is her dad there to protect her. That is a role Sandor will take on A LOT. We even have Robert's famous quote when it comes to making Ned kill Lady "Give her a dog, she'll be happier for it."

If she had thought about the simmilarities between Sandor's physical appearance (aka the half of his face that has not been burned) or any of his Ned-like personality traits - which are not that many, though the ones that exist are important - in moments like when she's imagining him replacing her husband on her marriage bed, yeah, that could absolutely be taken as her having a complex. But that's not what we got.

The closest we got to Ned having an influence in Sansa's romantic choices, is her wanting someone who was like the ideal husband her dad wanted her to have - brave, gentle and strong. She consistently refers to Sandor as being all three (even if the gentle part can go out the window if he's triggered and/or drunk) but that is more a sign of her realizing her dad was right and that she would have been happier with someone like that than with freaking Joffrey.

Considering she's freaked out by Littlefinger, who IS very much trying to be both her father and her lover at the same time, I'd say that is simply not Sansa's deal.

Littlefinger is also why I think Sandor's features are more northern-like (besides representing Sansa eventually chosing the North over the South) - he "lost" Catelyn to both Stark brother's, and now will lose his replacement!Catelyn to a man that was literally mistaken as Arya's father, aka could easily pass for a Stark. It's just perfect.

But like I said, I'm 100% into that kind of thing, so if you ever find any good fic for these pairings with that aspect in it, drop the link.

[virtual-dragon-almond-bakery]

It’s disturbing how they think Jon will romantically like 4ry4 even after he finds out Lyanna is his mother. She’s supposed to be her spitting image :|

I think that the Jonryas/Jonaryas/whatever they call themselves now should keep their Oedipus complex away from my girl and my boy.

[atopvisenyashill]

What are your thoughts on jon/arya as a romantic ship?

short answer is it’s just not my thing

longer answer is

the thing about me is that i don’t actually like reading about incest unless it’s fucked up, and those two are simply two healthily loving to be the sort of incest i go for. and the age gap is a lot for me. i know i sound ridiculous saying this bc i ship a lot of incest & a lot of age gaps but like. i like targs bc they’re all fucking bonkers twisted & they have cool magical powers lmao. i don’t care that much about cersei/jaime as a unit (they’re boring to Me. i see the appeal i just don’t care) despite being very fond of both of them separately. the jonsa of my mind trauma bonds & are then separated forever (i Am a sad ending jonsa truther i’m sorry @ all the happy ending jonsas following me), and i think it’s weird that tywin and rickard both married their cousins and i also think it’s weird that fdr & eleanor had the same last name before marrying as well! i have no reason for this beyond “it squicks me out when incest is healthy” like i’m fine with it being ~sexy~ and even romantic but i need some level of psychosexual trauma or i don’t want it. jon & arya are just too much like normal siblings for me to ship them. i feel the same about every other starkling ship except *sort of* jon/robb but i have to be in a really specific mood for that. and the age gap is like - the only “healthy” age gap i like is braime and they are both fully adults by our standards and theirs when they meet. all the others involve some level of grooming and i fully admit to that, and jonrya have such an age gap where that can Only be grooming in that situation and that’s just not their dynamic - to me the whole point of their dynamic is that they have this perfect, unsullied relationship to think on when the world gets horrible and that when they meet they will be so fundamentally different but that love and that bond will remain the same. you can’t really have that if jon is lusting after his barely adolescent traumatized sister.

the great thing about jon and arya is that they are so well written as a sibling unit that i am incapable of shipping them bc they remind me too much of me and my siblings. same for sansa/arya and all the focus the starklings have on robb.