#jedi did not deserve genocide

[obi1-kenobae]

I truly cannot fathom how anyone could watch Star Wars and come away thinking that the Jedi did nothing wrong/that their philosophy was correct. Like did you even watch Return of the Jedi? If the Jedi had had their way, Luke would have killed his own father. The entire point of Star Wars was that the Jedi were very wrong and flawed.

[antianakin]

I never, ever say the Jedi were flawed, and here's why.

It's not because I don't think people can BE flawed, or that I don't think GOOD people can be flawed, of course they can. Even people who are genuinely doing good things and making good choices and trying their best to be selfless and kind and compassionate can make mistakes and have a bad day.

But there's really only two reasons I see anybody bring up "the Jedi were flawed."

The first is from Jedi fans who are trying to stave off the Stanakins and the anti Jedi crowd by adding that in as a disclaimer. "OF COURSE the Jedi are flawed, but it doesn't mean they aren't good people!" It's a meaningless statement because the side saying it doesn't even really believe it to be true and the side they're saying it TO thinks the Jedi being flawed means they all deserved to die. This is the kind of statement that leads to people deciding that individual Jedi are okay but their culture needs to be completely reformed in order to allow people like Anakin to just do whatever they want whenever they want and then they can all live.

The second is from people who DON'T really like the Jedi much and will insist that "the Jedi are flawed" is part of the whole point of the narrative of Star Wars, especially the prequels. This is the kind of statement that leads to people like Leslye Headland INSISTING that George Lucas intended for the story of the Jedi to be one of failure and criticism and casting the Jedi as "the evil institution" in her interpretation of Star Wars. This is what leads to stories like the Ahsoka show insisting that the Jedi were elitist bastards whose arrogance led to their own genocide. These people usually try to claim they like the Jedi, but they'll still cast the Jedi as the bad guys in the story instead of, say, Anakin. These are the people who genuinely have no idea what attachment is and don't care to learn. These people believe that, at best, the Jedi THOUGHT they were doing good, but that they had completely lost their way and were truly not that much better than the Sith anymore and their destruction was necessary to create balance in the galaxy.

I have no desire to appease people who don't like my interpretation of Star Wars, and I don't think that "the Jedi were flawed" was ever the point of Lucas's story and I genuinely think it takes a lot AWAY from his story to say that it does. So while I am perfectly happy to admit that people in general, even overall GOOD and kind and selfless people, are always flawed and can make mistakes, I will never, ever say that the Jedi were flawed. The Jedi lost, yes, but not due to their own flaws. They lost because of EVERYONE ELSE'S flaws, so what does it MATTER if the Jedi were flawed or not? If you truly believe the Jedi were good people who did everything right and simply lost due to other people's selfish choices, then what does it add to the story to insist the Jedi were flawed? How does it change anything, for the better or otherwise? The Jedi were right IS the point of the story, so insisting they were flawed actually takes away from that by distracting from how the Jedi were RIGHT, and it's people choosing not to listen to them or trust them or act like them that brings about the downfall of an entire galaxy.

The Jedi weren't flawed. The Jedi were RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING and that is the hill I will die on.

[kcrabb88]

I think one of the things I've found most frustrating about sections of Star Wars fandom since being more active in it (rather than just being a Star Wars appreciator) is that some folks are constantly looking for a reason that the Jedi "caused" or worse "deserved" what was coming to them with Order 66. It's hard and horrible to watch the Jedi get slaughtered in Revenge of the Sith, so people search for a reason that it was, in some sense, justified. But that's not what genocide is. No group can "bring a genocide on themselves." It doesn't matter WHAT mistakes they may make. The whole point of the Clone Wars all the way down to destroying Jedha City in Rogue One was to wipe out not only the Jedi themselves, but the memory of them, so that the empire can fully take root.

And this is why the end of the Acolyte finale felt so so so bad to me. It was meant to be, or so I believed, a show about how the Sith were getting closer to their goal of getting rid of the Jedi as we close in on the century before The Phantom Menace. I sat there, I waited for the narrative intention to set in, and that narrative intention surprised me by saying "ah yes, well, some Jedi made mistakes and it was fine for one to be murdered HORRIBLY as a result, and the subsequent cover up of all of it is just the Jedi wanting to avoid senate knowledge of what really happened because the Jedi are too powerful." It's like, nevermind that the SENATE is the power here, and the Jedi long-ago agreed to help them out but are being shouldered with more and more and more and they may have the Force but they are still only people (which the High Republic books show REALLY well). It's like, nevermind that Star Wars is about redemption and always trying to be a better person and learning from our mistakes! It wasn't a situation, when Osha kills Sol in a nasty and cruel way, where you see a person going corrupt and know the narrative behind it is like "oh shit, this is a bad turn for them!" It felt like the narrative was saying she was justified (at least to me) and that's just. Sad? Bleak? The end of the finale felt to me like "hey, some Jedi made some mistakes while trying their best once, and that's why these Sith get to do whatever and that's why the Jedi walked right into their own demise."

When the scene with the senator happened, I thought, oh, interesting, we're going to see the prejudice against Force-sensitives here that leads to the senate clapping in the face of genocide. That leads to the safehouse in Kenobi where we see Force-sensitives carving messages of hope into the wall while they're being hunted down and killed. But that's ... not what happened. In the end, it felt like the narrative said, "yep that guy is right, the Jedi are a power-grabbing cult." It just felt bad, man. I thought this was going to be a story about the lineage leading up to Plagueis and Palpatine and I thought, interesting, I'd love to see that, but it just ended up being this messy thing with clunky writing and a bunch of loose ends that teased me with Jedi characters and then said "eh, these guys deserved it."

We got to see a kyber crystal bleeding for the first time in live action, and I can't even be excited about it! Did we ever really find out how Osha and Mae were created and what weird stuff the witches were up to? Nope! Just woah disappointing as far as even learning new stuff about how the dark side corrupts the Force, and that was one thing I was interested in as the show started to go downhill for me in later episodes.

(RIP Sol, Jecki, and Yord. You deserved better than that, and Vernestra, so did you)

[gffa]

I just need a hug. A YouTuber I respected, Jessie Gender, tweeted that the Jedi deserved to end (though at least she had the decency to say it shouldn't have been in genocide). Ugh, it's hard to exist in fandom when everyone seems ready to judge the Jedi as cops and not a culture that palpatine eradicated.

Virtual hugs, anon. It's really hard to lose respect for a creator you once admired--and going to check out their tweet, oh, I see we're calling the Buddhist Christians again--and I try to be understanding, not a lot of people really know enough about non-Western dominant religions to realize the often xenophobic/imperialistic undertones to describing Buddhism as such (or my other favorite, calling the Buddhist-inspired religion a "cult"), as if Christianity is the default. At least they acknowledged that what happened was a genocide and didn't say it was their own fault/something they did. But here's my real advice, the only way I've found to make myself feel better after something like this: Go on a Jedi-positive spree. Don't vagueblog, that won't make you feel better in the long run, but address some of the things that frustrate you. Like, I would tweet out a, "Hey, you wanna see a list of all the times the Jedi said really nice things about Anakin?" or "Hey you wanna see a list of all the times the Jedi died to protect someone?" or "Hey you wanna see all the times the Jedi express emotion and said feelings were normal?" or "Hey you remember that time TCW explicitly showed us how the Jedi actually had no real power within the framework of the government? And we can see that they were were only there to better facilitate saving lives, because that's how you effect change on a galactic level, instead of idk charging people money to fly around the galaxy in ships and eat food?" Tweet out a series of George Lucas quotes about how the Jedi were right about stuff or how they were limited in Shitty Choice A or Shitty Choice B. This builds something positive, it makes it more fun to be around you and draw more people to you, and you will feel better. It sucks to lose respect for someone you liked, but just remember. No amount of fan opinions can touch what the movies and TCW and George Lucas' interviews, and ultimately it's still just Star Wars. We cannot live and die by a made up fictional story, I've tried and it sucks so much more than just shrugging my shoulders, saying to myself that someone has Bad Star Wars Takes, and sailing on off. Lots of hugs, anon, and I hope you can find comfort that there are still lots of us having fun over here in our Actually The Jedi Were Pretty Right About Everything corner. ^_~

[ankahikoibaat]

I'm always so wary and skeptical when I see people put 'Star Wars fan' 'I love Star Wars' or variations thereof in their bio, or say they like the series (especially if there's something about the Jedi mentioned) because then I'm like -

do you think the Jedi did their best and were obviously the good guys and did not need to "reform" and deserve their genocide in any way or are you wrong? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[sonic-fairyspell]

The Jedi did nothing wrong. They didn't ""steal"" kids. They did not deserve to be fucking murdered. They weren't responsible for their genocide. They are not at fault for Anakin's Fall. They did everything they could do to help people. Anakin is responsible for his of his own actions and choices. That includes his choice to Fall and aid Palpatine instead of stop him, his choice to lead the mind controlled Clones into the Temple, his choice to lead the genocide of the Jedi, his choice to be literally the worst person in the galaxy, murder more people, and help lead and enforce the fascist Empire. Those were his choices, his actions. Not the Jedi's. Don't like it? Too bad, that's was the movies and shows literally show.

[fellthemarvelous]

The Jedi struggle

What was Barriss' ultimate goal?

I mean, yeah, exposing the hypocrisy of the Jedi Order was what she wanted to do, but it seemed like she was going to allow Ahsoka to take the fall for a crime she didn't commit. She only confessed because Anakin nearly killed her after finding out she framed Ahsoka for bombing the Jedi Temple.

If Anakin had not caught her, then what?

Was she just going to carry that secret with her until the day she died? Was she going to suddenly have proof that Ahsoka had been framed and the Jedi had gotten it wrong? Ahsoka was supposed to be her best friend and she chose to throw Ahsoka under the bus just to prove a point to the galaxy.

Did she think she was doing the right thing or did she know that what she was doing was evil?

Because regardless of what you think of the Jedi Order, the way she chose to go about proving her point was monstrous. She might have been right, but it almost cost Ahsoka her life, not to mention the number of Jedi, clones and temple workers killed in the bombing.

The Jedi were not monsters though. Clearly there were Jedi who did bad things (Dooku, Krell, Barriss, Anakin...) but that doesn't mean the entire order was evil. It means that there were some who were not strong enough to resist the lure of the dark side. The Jedi had lost their way, but it doesn't mean they didn't deserve the opportunity to find their way back to the light. Barriss even ultimately redeems herself.

And while Barriss isn't the least bit responsible for Order 66, her actions made Palpatine's job easier in the end.

Which brings me to the Clone Wars.

The war itself was chaotic for the Jedi. They had expressed repeatedly that they were peacekeepers and not soldiers. They did not want to go to war, but Palpatine made sure they didn't have a choice.

Of course they were going to mess up.

They were trying to protect an entire galaxy, but there were only 10,000 Jedi Knights protecting one hundred quadrillion sentient lifeforms (I pulled that number from Wookieepedia) in a galaxy with millions of star systems. They had the help of roughly three million clone troopers (fighting against roughly one quadrillion battle droids), an army that was created for them without their knowledge by Darth Tyranus (Count Dooku), a fact they didn't find out until it was too late. They found out after they had spent years fighting alongside the clones. They trusted and cared for the clones, and the clones never let them down.

And the one time the clones did let them down was when the clones lost their free will and were forced to execute their Jedi leaders.

The Jedi were doing the best they could considering there were nowhere near enough of them to adequately protect an entire galaxy during a time of war. At one point, Obi-Wan even expressed frustration over the fact that not enough planets were standing up for themselves, which was why the Jedi were spread so thin. The droid army was massive and able to swarm entire planets with ease. The Jedi had no time to rest and the Clone Army was nowhere near large enough.

They were keepers of the peace turned into soldiers for the very purpose of turning the galaxy against the Jedi. That was Palpatine's whole angle. Their compassion was exploited and used against them.

Did they lose their way? Yes. To an extent.

Were they evil? No. They were doing what they thought was right.

The Jedi are not flawless and the Force does not make the Jedi omnipotent. They made mistakes.

All of that is to say...

I will never understand how people can say that the Jedi were evil when it's explicitly clear that Palpatine used anti-Jedi propaganda to justify the genocide of the entire Jedi Order by painting them as evil.

Which resulted in this...

[confused-rat]

A Rat’s List of 50 Villain’s that had a Point

So beforehand, here’s Lily’s dumbass fucking rules for the list. 

Have a point 

Successfully navigate still being a villain

Are written well

From other lists I’ve seen, I think some people have either misinterpreted or ignored the “have a point” bit. (Or maybe I have.) Having a point means the villain was correct on a certain issue, but otherwise failed with their handling of it. (Leading to the second rule, is still a villain despite having a valid point.) So I’m going to try and explain what issue each villain I’ve listed was correct on, and why they’re still a villain. 

But I’m also ignoring rule 3. Because it’s stupid. ☺️ Spoilers inbound.

Ardyn Izunia, FFXV — The point, the gods ruined his life and to correct their mistakes, set up a prophecy that would ruin/kill countless other lives in the process, forcing everyone into roles they had not consented to. Why he’s still the villain, lost himself in the role he was forced into, killing needlessly and mentally torturing others for the dramatics. 

Emet-Selch, FFXIV — The point, the world is a fractured existence, where its inhabitants live infinitely shorter and arguably strife-filled lives, their souls 1/14 of what they originally were. Reality itself is broken. Why he’s still a villain, mortals still have the right to live and better themselves and if fixing the world means mass genocide across 14 different versions of reality, maybe let it stay broken?

Nidhogg, FFXIV — The point, the Ishgardians renege on their alliance and unjustly slew his sister for power, eventually rewriting their own history to place the blame on the dragons to justify their centuries long war. Why he’s still bad, genocide is never the answer. Also was just tossing hatchlings out to war to satisfy his own hatred.

Zodiark, FFXIV — The point, was created to stop the end of the world. Did that. Quite successfully for thousands of years. Why was it still bad though? Because it was gonna sacrifice millions to fulfill the wishes of its summoners after the fact. (See: Emet-Selch)

Vayne & Venat, FFXII — The point, humanity was being controlled by fantasy mindflayers, who routinely destroyed nations to keep their status quo. Vayne and Venat wished to free humanity from them, unfortunately, they decided to do that by invading and conquering other countries and killing thousands. 

Megatron, TFA — The point, Cybertron created his people as a slave race for war and denied them basic rights. Why is he still a villain, thinks colonizing and genocide is needed to provide for his people.

Megatron, IDW — The point, Cybertron’s government was a functionalistic hellscape where dissent was punished with anything from brainwashing to amputation. Why is he still a villain, lost the plot and murdered millions, innocents who were victims of the same system he was, eventually was guilty of the same crimes as the people he originally fought against.

Megatron, TFP — The point, another functionalist society, one where dissenters were sent to gladiator pits. Why is he still a villain, became essentially a terrorist when he bombed a theme park and later whole cities, again murdering fellow victims. 

Silco, Arcane — The point, despite being ruled by the same government, the Undercity received no support from Piltover and was left poverty stricken and oppressed. Zaun deserved its independence. Silco, however, is a drug lord, so he’s still a villain.

Count Dooku, Star Wars — The point, the Jedi Council and Republic were actually corrupt. Why he’s still the villain, worked with the absolute worst person in the galaxy. He tried to fight fire with an active volcano, very not smart.

The Architect, Dragon Age: Awakening — The point, was trying to give darkspawn and other blighted creatures back their self-awareness and control, eventually stopping the Blights entirely. Why he’s still the villain, abducted Grey Wardens to drain of blood and experiment on to achieve his goals. 

Teyrn Logain, Dragon Age: Origins — The point, Orlais was actually trying to secretly conquer Fereldan through a political marriage to King Cailan. Why he’s still the villain, let hundreds of his own people die to secure the throne, including the Grey Wardens, who had nothing to do with Orlais’ plans. 

Solas, Dragon Age: Inquisition — THE POINT, WHICH HE DID HAVE, both times he fucked with the Veil, he was trying to essentially stop an unjust social hierarchal system that supported slavery. Why he’s still the villain, he admitted it would likely kill a lot of people and we do not want that actually? 

Handsome Jack, Borderlands 2 — The point, Pandora is FUCKED. It needs some kind of intervention, people are wearing face masks made of FACES. Why he’s still a villain, it’s. It’s Handsome Jack? He airlocks people for fun, and that’s TAME compared to the other shit he’s done. 

Colonel T. Zarpedon, Borderlands the Pre-Sequel — The point, wanted to prevent the powers of the Vault from being misused. (Points at Borderlands 2 and 3) How she’s still the villain, decides to blow up the moon and all the people on it to do so.

Akechi Goro, Persona 5 — The point, Shido was a vile person who appeared to be above the law as he used his influence to ruin countless lives. Why Goro’s still the villain, murdering innocents in a long-con revenge plot isn’t justified. 

Louis Guiabern, Metaphor: Refantazio — The point, he’s essentially trying to end fantasy racism. Why he’s still bad, his solution to ending said fantasy racism is nonconsensual body modification on a worldwide scale. 

The Flame Emperor, Fire Emblem: Three Houses — The point, the church was corrupt and allowed atrocities to be committed to meet its status quo. Working with arguably worse people (reluctantly) and allowing other atrocities to occur to defeat said church is still bad though.

Miquella, Elden Ring — The point, the Golden Order is flawed and shunned many of the Lands’ Between’s inhabitants. Why he’s still the villain, you can’t brainwash an entire country into being nice, that’s insane. 

Shadowlord, Nier: Gestalt/Replicant — The point, oh man, where do I fucking begin? Shades are all just disembodied souls trying to reunite with their clone vessels. If they don’t reunite, said vessels will eventually die, as both are connected. Unfortunately, the clone vessels gained sentience, dooming humanity. The Shadowlord is just trying to save his daughter/sister, but he’s essentially sacrificing another version of her to do this with neither’s consent. No bueno. 

The Wicked Witch of the West, Wizard of Oz — The point, Dorothy totally did steal her sister’s shoes off her corpse. The death was accidental, but the theft was deliberate. Theft isn’t a murdering offense though, also Toto was just a dog? Wtf. Still a villain.  

The Gnome King, Return to Oz — The point, the Emerald City did in fact steal all his emeralds. Why he’s still the villain, sore loser. Tried to eat a child. 

Shere Khan, the Jungle Book (LA) — The point, mankind sucks. That is all…. Also the wolves totally broke the rules by keeping Mowgli, they could’ve just dropped him off at a village. Why he’s still the villain, preferred child murder to relocation. 

Maleficent, Sleeping Beauty — The point, you do not FUCK with the Fae? Don’t be rude? Why she’s a villain, did not stop after making her point. Sore loser. Cursed the baby instead of the rude parents. 

Ursula, the Little Mermaid — The point, technically, Ariel made a deal with the witch of her own free will. Why she’s still the villain, also a sore loser. Sabotaged Ariel to get the trident. Not a girls girl. Boo.

The Creature, Frankenstein — The point, was shunned and ostracized by literally everyone, including the man who created him, for something beyond his control. Victor owed him (child support). Why he’s still a villain, literally killed a child to spite his creator. He literally. Killed a child. And framed the nursemaid. To torment Victor. He also threatens all Victor’s friends and family, innocent people who had NO HAND in his creation. 

Dracula, Netflix’s Castlevania — The point, radical religious zealots killed his wife (and others) unprovoked. Why is he still a villain, did not stop at the zealots. (This iteration isn’t a predator, you empty-headed fuck ass, as a MLP enjoyer, you should understand the concept of MULTIPLE VERSIONS OF ONE CHARACTER??)

Lucian, Underworld Trilogy — The point, werewolves were slaves and fantasy racism got his lover and unborn child killed. Why he’s still the villain, kidnapped and helped experiment on countless people (who also died) to create a hybrid to facilitate his revenge. 

Red Queen, Resident Evil — The point, she was literally stopping the zombie infection from breaching contamination and destroying the entire world. Why she’s still the villain, told nobody, explained nothing, boom laser hallway. 

Ozymandias, Watchmen — The point, literally just watch the movie. Dude united global powers and ended a Cold War by creating a fake obstacle to scare them, but that’s bad because he killed a lot of people to do that. 

The Count, Gankutsuou — The point, he was unjustly convicted by three corrupt men who abused their positions of power and got away scott-free for years. Still bad because he dragged many innocent people into his revenge plot. Franz did NOT deserve all that. 

Knives, Trigun Stampede — The point, humanity destroyed their own planet and was actively using his people as portable life support batteries and slowly killing them. Why he’s still the villain, genocide is not a valid solution. 

Kyubey, Madoka Magica — Fuck you Lily, Kyubey isn’t a psychopath, it’s a manipulative little shit that doesn’t have humanity’s morals. The point, the universe is dying and they’re trying to stop that. Why they’re still the villain, their solution was the emotional and physical torture of children in a never-ending cycle of despair of death. 

Bandit King Bakura, Yu Gi Oh — The point, the then Pharaoh literally massacred his entire village to create the Millennium Items. Why he’s still the villain, once you fuse with a Great God of Evil, it’s kinda hard to argue for your continued righteous vengeance. 

Shōgo Makishima, Psycho Pass — The point, the Sybil System is flawed, criminalizing innocent people while letting dangerous sociopaths like him walk free (until they get brain jarred). Why he’s still the villain, he decided to demonstrate the system’s flaws by orchestrating so. many. murders. Like. So many. 

Luke Castellans, PJO — The point, the Gods didn’t care for their kids equally and left many to fend for themselves. Why he’s still the villain, trying to murder your fellow campers cause they won’t join your cause is bad actually. 

Medusa, PJO — The point, was unfairly cursed while Poseidon got away scott-free. Why she’s still DEFINITELY a villain, turns innocent people to stone, was gonna turn a child because she’s still not over her ex, getting dealt a raw hand doesn’t excuse CHILD MURDER. 

Poseidon, Odyssey — The point, Odysseus could’ve just avoided all this if he had just killed Poseidon’s son. 🤷 Why he’s still the villain, he would’ve raised the tides so high that all of Ithaca would’ve died, cause he had beef with ONE (1) MORTAL MAN. 

Lord Cutler Beckett, Pirates of the Caribbean — The point, uhhh. This may come as a surprise, but. Pirates… bad? Why he’s still a villain, he did not stop at pirates. Blackmailed and killed basically bystanders. ACAB. 

The Bane, The Underland Chronicles — The point, the Underlanders were originally a colonizing force that poisoned and killed the original inhabitants of the caves they took for their own. Why he’s still a villain, HE EATS PEOPLE? Many of the species underground are sentient and HE EATS THEM?

Tsaritsa/Fatui, Genshin Impact — The point, Celestia has a chokehold on humanity, controlling people’s fates and harshly punishing any dissent. They need to be stopped. Why they’re still villains, essentially is fighting fire with fire, manipulating Nations and experimenting on/killing folks to pursue their own goals to topple Celestia. 

Tsumugi Shirogane, Danganronpa V3 — The point, just doing her job, allegedly the entire class signed up willingly to play the Death Game. Why she’s still the villain, broke her own rules, also, cool motive, still murder?

Chris Walker, Outlast — The point, is trying to keep a highly dangerous swarm of nanites from breaking containment. Why he’s still the villain, does this by breaking others’ spines. And necks. And everything really.

Charioce XVII, Rage of Bahamut: Virgin Soul — The point, Bahamut is a world ending threat that almost succeeded two separate times in the past, and was guaranteed to awaken again in the imminent future to finish the job. Charioce wanted to stop it. However, waging a war with Heaven and enslaving the demon race to build a weapon to combat it was an awful way to go about it.

William Moriarty, Moriarty the Patriot — The point, England’s class system was allowing the rich to get away with absolutely abhorrent crimes. Murder is still murder though. 

Azure Lion, Lego Monkie Kid — The point, the celestial realm really doesn’t care about the mortal realm and is arguably very corrupt. Why he’s still a villain, broke the universe despite multiple people telling him to Not Do That. 

Toffee, SVTFOE — The point, wanted to get rid of magic, which kind of did fuck a lot of people over. Why he’s still the villain, child murder 🎶 is not 🎶 okay! 🎶

Oropo, Wakfu — The point, sought to replace seemingly uncaring gods with their abandoned offspring. Why he’s still the villain, was going to nuke the world to topple said gods. 

Julith, Dofus — The point, was unjustly framed for the murder of her lover because of fantasy racism. Why she is still the villain, sacrificing a stadium’s worth of souls to bring back your deceased lover is not okay.  

Prince Nuada, Hellboy 2 — The point, humanity had forgotten its truce with the Fae and was actively poisoning the planet. Dooming Nuada’s people and other creatures to a slow death and extinction. Why he’s still bad, genocide 👏 is not 👏 a valid 👏 solution!!

[starbeltconstellation]

No matter how I look at it, I get the feeling that Lesyle Headland is racist against Asians. Seeing all those characters portrayed by Asian people get mistreated horribly makes me very uncomfortable because I'm Asian myself, and I've been through that multiple times during my life. I'm not the only one who thinks that. I saw there are a couple of other people who think that Lesyle Headland is against Asians too. Kathleen Kennedy keeps pointing out the racism in the fandom, yet she ignores the racism that she HERSELF and her co-workers are doing, and that includes Lesyle Headland! Why did Star Wars now have to be in the hands of a Western company where they keep mistreating Asian characters and Asian people??? Now, with what happened in Sol in the finale, the SW fandom is going to be even more racist and spout more BS against Asians now. I'm tired af of all the hatred towards my people! Both Asians and the Jedi deserve better!!!

Hello, dear anon. ❤️

Firstly, I just want to DEEPLY apologize for the long wait in my response. 😅💔😖 I try not to get behind on asks, but life has been crazy for me at the moment, and especially with longer asks like yours, I really want to take my time and give a good and in depth response.

And yesssss! 👏👏 Speak your truth, dear anon! 😖✊

I will be honest and say that my view—while I HEAVILY dislike LH’s writing morals and style (and just the whole concept of The Acolyte show in general being some ‘girl power fantasy’ for women when the Dark Side is anything but that and is nothing but weighted chains tying you to the ocean floor to drown)—was more charitable at first where I know in my SOUL if I ever met this woman that we probably would not be able to get along if we talked about SW fandom lore too much. And I can accept that! 😂

Not everyone will like or agree with each other. At least she’s not as bad as Karen Traviss, because dear GOD I have recently just learned about the petty hatred that woman has towards the Jedi (with a WORD FOR WORD line of a character in her books EXPLICITLY saying the Jedi Order deserved their genocide! 🤢), and I KNOWWW I would dislike that woman if I met her on the street. I can acknowledge the incredible feat she accomplished with developing Mando’a, while still maintaining that she seems like a very mean spirited person to be around), and it is literally nauseating in the most highly disgusting and disturbing way.

KT is basically a rapid and foaming at the mouth Jedi anti who believes they “got what was coming to them.🤢🥶” LH on the other hand (at least in HER head), views herself as Jedi CRITICAL. And while there is a little bit of a difference there, it’s not as stark a line as fans would try to convince us pro Jedi’s to believe.

There are plenty of fair criticisms about the Jedi that I can acknowledge: the Shimi thing, for one, which is I think just a bad symptom of GL’s writing being more “metaphorical” than literal. Shimi HAS to stay on Tatooine because Anakin eventually HAS to murder the Tuskens in cold blood so GL can tell the story he wants to tell of how Anakin can’t let go, and so the Jedi are never given the opportunity to do what I truly BELIEVE they would’ve done, which is go back and free her, at least for the peace of mind of one of their newest initiate. The plot literally physically bars them from doing so.

And even THIS is not without its flaws, because they would ONLY have wiggle room to free Shimi after the heat of TPM problems had died down where they had time to do so… while walking past/avoiding eye contact with all of Shimi’s slave neighbors, because as specified before—The Jedi have no jurisdiction in the Outer Rim, and you bet your ass if they freed all those slaves and started a war with the Hutts with their little 10,000 strong army, the Republic would take one look and go “Lol, good luck with that,” and not help them at all, which would be basically suicide for the Order to try and accomplish on abolishment of slavery on the Outer Rim all on their own in the TRILLIONS of people in the galaxy. They do not have the MAN POWER for that. Not without the Senate army/clones.

People want the Jedi to do something about it? Get on the Senate’s ass about it then—the REAL people who are responsible for all of the shit going wrong in the Outer Rim while they line their pockets and kiss up to clueless galactic citizens for votes come election time. THEY are the ones that should be responsible for the problems of an ENTIRE galaxy—not a small little minority group (which I’ve already come to realize that the Jedi are. They are a culture/religion/family, and 10,000 is but a drop in the ocean of the galaxy. They are so small in the grand scheme of things that it’s SCARY when considering how easy it was for Palpatine to lead them to almost total annihilation) that try and try and TRY as hard as they can, which is apparently somehow NEVER enough, for the galactic citizens AND the SW fandom itself.

And why is that? Why is it so HARD for SW fandom to relate to them? Why does LH (who I’m sure in her head BELIEVES she’s as progressive as they come) view the Jedi as some type of “space cops” who are “oppressing 🙄” the Sith as a representation of her religious trauma that she is clearly projecting onto them as something completely separate than what the Jedi Culture actually is? Why does she view them as “emotionally repressed” and “almost catholic-like”, and views the fucking SITH (literal SPACE NAZIS 😭🤦‍♀️) as a representation for her persecution as a gay woman?

It’s because—just like MOST SW fans in the US—she cannot fathom a culture outside of the lens of western philosophy. In her mind, the Jedi aren’t a “real 🙄🤢” family. In HER mind, the Jedi aren’t necessarily evil, but she still believes those “poor little culty Jedi 😔💔🙄” didn’t see they were ‘sewing their own destruction’. (Which is blaming them. It’s BLAMING the victims of genocide, and it’s to this day the most disgusting thing I will always remember about the show’s “your actions will cause the destruction of every Jedi in the galaxy” quote that made Twitter go wild with genocide apologia galore).

Some lovely examples! 😁🙃🙃

Disgusting Example 1:

Disgusting Example 2:

Disgusting Example 3:

Disgusting Example 4: REALLY YIKES. 🥶

Disgusting Example 5: Ahhh, would you look at that? We’ve made it into good ol’ ✨dehumanization✨. 🙃🙃🤢

ALL of those examples are not a small portion of the fandom. They are the MAJORITY. This is what the MAJORITY of the fandom truly deep in their hearts believe about the Jedi and their culture and way of life, even if they won’t word it as bluntly as those commenters did out loud.

THIS is what I believe LH’s beliefs regarding the Jedi’s non-western culture is like. She thinks she’s being “fair”, because hey! I made you like Jecki and Yord, didn’t I? 😘😘😘

… And then mere episodes later, she throws the rug out from under you in having Quimir (who she has ADMITTED in interviews is basically her mouthpiece for her own personal thoughts on SW) dehumanize not just Jecki and Yord by saying they were “incapable of going deeper to care about Osha like she deserves 🤢🙄🥶”, but also just by dehumanizing the Jedi in general. It becomes CLEAR in the final episodes that everything was meant to lead up to Osha and Quimir meeting (because they’re clearly Reylo 2.0, and this was LH’s way of getting to smash her Barbie dolls together), which basically gives a feeling of hollowness to the entire backdrop of the show—because the rest of the characters ARE a backdrop to them. She FAKES THE AUDIENCE OUT by pretending to humanize Sol as someone repentant, teasing the possibility of him and Osha being able to talk things out, before swiftly turning him into a one-dimensional caricature of himself who seems to have done a complete 180 on his remorse, only for the sheer purpose of him and Osha not being able to have a conversation. You may say, “Oh, but the show is an unreliable narrator! 🤪🤪🤪”

Except… no, it’s really not. 😭🤦‍♀️ Especially with the way LH spells out that she AGREES with Quimir’s philosophy, she AGREES with that asshole Senator treating the Jedi like shit who are “corrupt/emotionally repressed space monks”, she AGREES with Oshamir fans’s interpretations that the finale of turning to the Dark Side is a TRIUMPH for Osha instead of a heartbreaking moment that will lead to only ruin.

And it’s because—just like most western fans—she just doesn’t even WANT or CARE to understand the eastern philosophy of the Jedi’s culture, and instead projects her feelings from no doubt sympathetic trauma onto something that has no true basis for it. She views something that doesn’t have the “passion” of the Sith’s ‘love 🙄’ as lesser than. She doesn’t really view them as a family, because she only believes in a more standard family dynamic, and instead views them as an institution that “brought everything on themselves. 🥶”

And… honestly? I think you’re basically RIGHT, anon. I don’t think it’s truly this big CONSCIOUS thing. I don’t think she wrote out Sol’s death for the sheer purpose of “Muah-ha-ha”-ing over Asian fans losing some of the honestly most MEMORABLE and AMAZING representation they’ve had in YEARS in the very franchise that borrows from their own culture and philosophy. But I DO think she doesn’t view it as something worth considering. Oshamir is where her mind was at at the end of the day (because ROMANTIC love is something she clearly views as the most important and powerful thing, because OSHAMIR is who stand together at the end. Not Osha or her sister), and I think any other storyline factors became all but insignificant to her in the grand scheme of things. It was easy to kill all of the Jedi characters, because the “new fave” was here—the Sith. And to be fair, his hotness drew in a lot of buzz! But the cancellation and the renew the series petition signatures I think show the gap in how many people were truly interested going forward that weren’t reylo 2.0 fans. Yeah, a lot of people are into villains. But even MORE people want to root for their heros. The Jedi are supposed to be the heroes of SW, and such a show PURPOSELY and VINDICTIVELY portraying them in the worst way possible (the EMPATHETIC SPACE MONKS covered up a massacre? REALLY? 😭🤦‍♀️) throws more people off than LH would like to believe.

The way she killed Sol… it was brutal. And in interviews, she says some bullshit like Sol was “taking away Osha’s agency” by forgiving her and telling her it was okay. Because the portrayal of the Jedi in this show isn’t just “showing their flaws! 🤪🤪🤪” It is purposely writing them in a way that they’ve NEVER been shown to act on screen before—all to make the villain sympathetic, because LH clearly has adopted the thinking (much as radical Anakin fans have), that because someone has become a villain, then SOMEONE must’ve forced their hand. But that’s not how all true three dimensional characters WORK. Yes, there are tragic characters whose circumstances make things worse, but the idea that a villain is always “misunderstood” creates the narrative that the HERO is somehow in the wrong. LH does this because both Osha and Quimir are her new OCs. She makes the Jedi almost completely OOC and portrays them as oppressive to JUSTIFY Quimir and Osha’s actions. Because THIS is what The Acolyte was about: giving Reylo 2.0 a happy ending.

There has been criticism from fans that Jecki and Yord were killed too early which only gave fans an “awww ☹️💔” feeling, because they barely had the chance to even solidify into real characters to make the audience sob and cry at their loss. And I would argue this thinking is right. Because if you look CLOSELY at the background, you can see how it all was just a hollow backdrop for LH’s “dark romance” idea. And I’m not saying such an idea was BAD—I’m saying it wasn’t originally marketed that way. Sol is marketed as the main character (representing Asians in a fantastic way), and then she brutally kills him off, because he was never REALLY important to LH’s story. None of the Jedi were. She was always more interested in the Sith. And so, she tries to make the Sith the “oppressed 🙃🙄”. And I would argue she fails at this with the larger audience, even if loud fans of reylo are chanting about it on tumblr and twitter. The viewership is lower than expected for the show (and part of that is because of the horrible racism and campaign against it from SW dudebros). But honestly, I think a part of it is just… what’s left? Everyone except Osha and Quimir are dead. Sol was brutally murdered on his knees (one of the best Asian representation I’ve seen in a while in SW) like he was nothing but garbage. The Jedi lost, and apparently LH has also character assassinated Vernestra by what she does in the finale, if the character’s fans huffing on tumblr are anything to go by (which is TOTALLY within their right to feel disappointed and angry over an aroace character being treated by the narrative like she and the culture she believes in have ‘no emotion or empathy’ 🥶🤢. There’s that good ol’ ✨dehumanization✨ kicking in again, huh?)

THIS is what SW has apparently decayed into. Into being vindictive and petty and blaming victims for their own persecution and pain. It’s a sign of a self involved culture, which is what the USA/the west is, I’ll admit. Other countries are collectivist. We are individualists. (ie; “I got mine.”) People ENJOY these tales of flipping everything around to blame the heroes and not the villains, because they SEE themselves in villains like Anakin or Kylo Ren or Osha and Quimir. And look—there’s nothing wrong with seeing yourself in a villain and even with sympathizing with them! Anakin’s past as a slave no doubt makes him very much deserving of empathy in that regard.

But the problem is—since they SEE themselves in the villain—then they don’t want the villain to be in the wrong (ie; Anakin). Because if the VILLAIN is in the wrong, then they TOO can also be in the wrong, and a lot of people don’t like to grapple with that. I have seen a recent post going around from someone I was pretty disappointed with that switched sides from pro jedi into anti jedi territory so vindictively and quickly (do NOT attack this person if you know who I’m talking about. I am bringing this up for the sheer purpose of meta. Not to pettily call them out or something), who was responding to an ask where the asker was thanking this person in basically defending Anakin by excusing his actions. The anon said they related heavily to Anakin, and apparently hated recent posts going around which call Anakin out on his behavior, because the anon and this person both believe that the criticism is meant to be vindictive and cruel, when that is rarely the case.

This is where the “Anakin was bullied by The Council/Mace/Obi-Wan” excuses come in. Because Obi-Wan gently offers CONSTRUCTIVE criticism at times, he is somehow viewed as someone who never truly respected or understood Anakin as a person. Because the Council didn’t worship the ground Anakin walked on and didn’t just let him get away with things without a sometimes gentle/firm reprimand, they are somehow viewed as people who have been out to get Anakin and ‘didn’t trust him’ since he was a child. Because Mace butted heads with Anakin at times because they had different opinions on how to be a good Jedi and in their battle strategies on the war, Mace is somehow the most petty and worst man alive who has been “jealous” of Anakin his whole life.

All of these above excuses—in the most nicest way I can state possible—sound like the platitudes that children tell themselves against parents who they’re angry at. This is WHY Anakin went to Palpatine; because Palpatine always told him “Yes.”

And believe it or not?

Sometimes being told “no” isn’t the end of the world or means people hate you.

Sometimes you’re a good person who made a mistake, and just need to be called out to get back on the right track.

Accountability.

LH apparently believes in none of this for her characters. The backstory crafted for Osha and Quirmir clearly shows that. It’s meant to ABSOLVE them.

Funny how the JEDI (the ones based off of Asian inspired culture in certain areas) aren’t given the same courtesy, huh? 🙃🙃

This is why the pro jedi fanfic I’m writing is free therapy. Loooool. 😂❤️

In conclusion—yessss, I think you’re pretty on the mark in a certain type of way, anon, even if we both have a little bit of a charitable gap for LH between the two of us.

I apologize for the late reply again! 😭❤️❤️❤️❤️ I hope the wait was worth it!

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To any readers that stumble across this and are curious enough to check out my fic:

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[jedi-enthusiast]

Coming off of this post

I literally cannot talk about Star Wars or my SW fics in the writing server I moderate because, for some reason, there are tons of those SW dudebros that are like “uh, the Jedi are evil actually and the Sith were right-” (all of which just so happen to be nationalist conservatives, but that’s another post) -and they refuse to listen to any actual reason.

Like, I genuinely think they’re all stupid and have no media literacy because this is how my conversations usually go with them:

—————

Them: The Jedi had to be genocided to restore balance to the Force, so Anakin restored balance at the end of RotS. He did as the prophecy said, it’s not his fault the Jedi assumed “bringing balance” meant killing the Sith

Me: Then why is the Force imbalanced in the OT? And why is it specifically said that it’s restored only after all of the Sith are dead and there are still living Jedi—therefore proving that the Jedi were correct in the Prequels? And why has George Lucas specifically said that the Sith are imbalance?

Them: (summarized) Lucas is wrong

—————

Them: The Jedi are evil because they fought in a war

Me: So they should've just let the Sith conquer and enslave the rest of the galaxy?

Them: but they fought in a war!

—————

Them: The Jedi are evil because they served the Republic and the Republic made them *something or other*

Me: Ok, where would they have gone otherwise? where would they get the funding to live? how would they protect their place of worship/religious artifacts/etc. if they were either supposed to leave it there unprotected or carry it around until they found a place to stay? how would they help the galaxy at large when they had no resources?

Them: They should've just figured it out

—————

Me: Genocide is bad, no matter the circumstances

Them: nuh-uh

—————

Like I literally cannot stand it anymore!

I want to go back to the days before all these dudebros joined the server and I literally had a 4 hour long discussion with one of my friends on how Palpatine was a moron who got screwed in the OT because he put all of his eggs in one basket and was also cheap as hell!

(and no, I'm not even joking, it was 4 hours long and we were getting really into it--it was a lot of fun)

But I can't have those discussions because SW dudebros have ruined it for me and I can no longer stand even hearing about SW in the server

In conclusion: the Jedi are great and anyone who thinks they're "the bad guys" or "deserved to get genocided" or whatever can get fucked.

[antianakin]

I really do feel a lot of sympathy for the people who still have the softer anti-Jedi interpretation of Star Wars. You know the one, where the Jedi were good people individually and definitely didn't deserve to be genocided, but that their culture is repressive and isolating, and if they'd reformed it more then maybe Anakin wouldn't have gone dark, etc etc.

Because I believe that they love the Jedi. I do! You can often tell in some of the things they write about them, in meta or in fic, that they do genuinely LIKE the Jedi. And this interpretation very much does feel like it spawned as a way to fight back against the interpretation that "the Jedi were corrupt and that's the point of the Prequels" that was so popular right after the films were released and remains relatively popular today. It stands in a middle ground between "the Jedi are the heroes of the story who did nothing wrong" and "the Jedi are the true villains of the story who deserved to die" that allows for the Jedi to have been GOOD, just misguided.

This interpretation allows for these fans to find ways to SAVE the Jedi by having them reform themselves to, often, philosophies and practices that the canon Jedi actually already have. They often end up deciding that they CAN have relationships actually, so long as the don't let their relationships be prioritized over their duty or cause them to harm others. They often end up recognizing that balance means letting go of anger and fear rather than pretending it doesn't exist. They often end up realizing that mental health and therapy are good and important things.

These fans are SO CLOSE to getting it! All they need a little nudge to realize that the Jedi ALREADY HAVE ALL OF THAT. It's not a BETTER interpretation to see the Jedi as having caused their own destruction, intentionally or not. It doesn't necessarily make the story better to see it as true. It's not even necessarily more nuanced to view it that way.

As Jean-Luc Picard and Beyonce have taught us, sometimes you can do everything right, make no mistakes, and still lose. That's not failure, that's just life. The Jedi lost. They did everything right, as well as they could have under the circumstances, and lost due to things that were completely out of their control to change.

[gffa]

This is a long rant and I apologise if this comes off as too much 😅 I just want to let you know that I'm SO GLAD you're part of the star wars fandom. You're one of the few reasons my interest in this franchise has survived despite the toxicness that it has seeped into everything the past few years. Yes, star wars fandom has always been pretty much a mess but I feel like these days it's somehow gotten even worse. And there isn't even anything coming out that could distract everyone from the constant drama.

Your blog and your posts about the books are always a breath of fresh air in all this. I really appreciate that you take time to make all these long canon references and share them with us. And that you actually engage with canon content! For some reason that seems to be a tall order for most 'fans' these days.

It's exhausting seeing the ice cold takes about the jedi be repeated over and over again by people who seem to have barely even watched the films, let alone read the random book they're referencing to show how the jedi are So Evil and failed poor anakin by Forcing him to let go of his Attachments so they definitely deserved to all get massacred down to the last child!!! And if you push back by citing literally anything canonical to show how ridiculous their takes are they reference a random obscure legends novel (that they are often twisting and also usually haven't even read) And if you point out that, no, Legends isn't canon (and never has been) and we could discuss it as its own separate thing instead of dragging it into canon discussions, they completely flip and say they don't care and to stop taking star wars so seriously 🙄 ( u can probably tell I've had some pretty frustrating fandom arguments recently lol)

It does feel like groundhog day sometimes with the same arguments being repeated over and over again to villainize the jedi while absolving the genocidal mass enslaving space fascists that are Very Clearly the Bad Guys. And it feels pretty much deliberate at this point when people misunderstand star wars' canon definition of attachment and project all their issues in their own lives with their christian upbringing onto the space monks... This has only been exacerbated by people like Headland jumping onto the franchise and doing this with fuckass disney's approval, so now the racist anti jedi youtubers have started attacking this new anti jedi show so if I defend the jedi I get lumped in with them *sigh*

Anyway, I just listened to Padawan's Pride because of your posts and it was fun and a much needed palate cleanser for me after the months of anti jedi takes. I also started reading your jedi citations project and it's gotten me back into reading some other of my favorite jedi fics and maybe writing some of my own. So tldr; Thank You!

Oh, anon, I hear you and I went through a lot of similar feelings over the last few months. In between a lot of IRL stuff coming up and the fandom getting incredibly weird about Jedi fans (soooo much projection going on that it started getting unsettling sometimes) and the same old constant beratement on my posts, I was thinking that I was just too tired to deal with any of it.

It did get hard some days because it felt like no matter how hard I tried to be friendly and make a point to say that everyone needed to be allowed their space whether we agreed or not, that I would still get words put in my mouth or my posts misinterpreted or accused of trying to shut down other people's conversations, when I've never even interacted with that person, I've never reblogged anything from them, never talked about them, just made my own posts about the Jedi on my own blog.

That aspect of how, if we write posts that cite Lucas quotes or moments from the movies and shows, we're taking things too seriously (or the super weird one of how we're trying to "force" people to have to take Lucas' commentary as a holy grail or whatever), then we're taking it too seriously is SO REAL, I have been through that SO MUCH. And it's like, no! Nobody has to take authorial intention into consideration! But if you're going to say that I ~missed the point~ of what Lucas intended with the movies, I'm going to break out the Lucas quotes to show that, no, I didn't miss the point. You're still not obligated to agree, but the point is that I'm not coming out of nowhere with my views and deriding me as not a ~true fan~ or whatever is asshole behavior.

And it's hard to have that groundhogs day feeling, especially because you don't necessarily want to spend that time getting into arguments with people--they are allowed their own space, if they want it! But if they're coming into our space, then yes we get to respond with an essay if we like. (And, hey, some of us genuinely like writing essays, it's satisfying!) But I've found the best mindset for me to have when arguing is: I'm not going to convince this person in front of me and that's fine, they're not going to convince me, either. But there are other people watching this discussion and they are seeing which one of us is being a pill and which one of us looks kinda fun to hang out with.

Which is my way of winding around to what I really want to say--I'm so glad that I can help you want to have fun in this corner of fandom! There's always going to be times to respond with sharp edges to Jedi-critical stuff (especially when it starts dipping into the racist, xenophobic, bigoted nonsense)(not all of Jedi criticism is this, but it does happen all too often), I don't blame Jedi fans for having their nerves scraped raw by people feeling absolutely free to treat our posts like public property instead of them coming into someone else's lane to make a mess. (I've met some very nice Jedi critical people, this isn't about them, this is about the assholes.)

But is it really worth being in a fandom where that's all we do anymore? We can't avoid the negativity, we can't avoid people being assholes to us, but we can work on making the content we want to see at the end of a long day when we get home and log onto the computer and want to see something that makes us feel joyful.

I hope I'm doing my part to make it fun to stick around the fandom, to want to read some of the books or some of the fic, I love the artists who are drawing the cutest Jedi art, I love the fic writers who are writing great Jedi-positive stories, I love people who make silly shitposts about how funny the Jedi fan be, I love people who cry over the deaths of their favorite Jedi, they help make the fandom worthwhile.

It really does make a huge difference, I think! Whenever I need that same palette cleanser, I just take a week or so to push aside all discourse (don't even go look), just pick up some of my favorite Jedi fics, just go looking for some of my favorite Jedi art, reread "Padawan" or "Padawan's Pride" or "Obi-Wan & Anakin" or "The Living Force" or "Dark Rendezvous" and just spend time thinking about the things I love about the Jedi in canon, thinking up headcanons about lineages or nerdy Jedi philosophy arguments or adrenaline junkies, and it helps create the space I want to be in.

Hearing that I can help you with that is a huge boost as well--I hope you know that it helps me in return to know that we can help build something together here in our corner of the Star Wars internet. We're in this together and we can cheer each other up with cute content and I am getting out the pom-poms for you to have fun with that fic! <3

[mysticaltora8276]

"And Jusik still felt guilty for the unkind thoughts that never left him: that the Jedi Order had sowed what it had reaped, that it's acceptance of a slave army had set up it's own punishment. The Force had balanced the books."

501st Republic Commando

That’s right people be so-called most moral character is perfectly fine with Jedi suffering and genocide because they “deserve it.” What the ever loving crap. Jusik you’re lucky that I am not in the narrative because I would be smacking you with something very heavy yelling at you that no one deserves a genocide. Also, I would love to see him say this aloud or think this near a telepath like Obi-Wan Kenobi and watch him go very red and nearly lose his crap and beat the living daylights out of him. Or heck Cal or Rex or Ahsoka or Caleb. Because I can assure you, Rex would pretty much beat him to a pulp with no regrets. Caleb would smack the crap out of him and Cal? Oh boy, the other two would be very hard-pressed to keep that kid off of him. Oh, what about Reva? Holy cow if she heard him thinking that or talking that oh boy, would there be a major beat down and I would be on the sidelines cheering for that girl. I mean, basically his understatement of the year “unkind thoughts“ basically say that a bunch of people who were gang pressed into fighting a war that they themselves weren’t sure in accepting an army that a rogue Jedi commissioned and was financed by a Sith Lord thought is basically saying that everyone including the healers, the farmers, the artist, pilots and anyone who happen to have the Jedi title, including children and babies deserved to be slaughtered. I’m sorry that’s not a “unkind thought.“ That’s disgusting thought that needs to fill you with disgust not make you vaguely feel guilty. Guilty as she writes comes off as “my bad I did something really bad.” Thoughts like that should fill you with the disgust and revulsion. You should be guilt ridden and disgusted with yourself. And that kind of guilt and disgust should spur you into action so that way people are saved. Do you know what he does? Nothing then, on top of that in the behind-the-scenes interview according to the author, he wipes a woman’s mind that “magically“ erases her trauma and then beds her.

Edit: I would like to iterate that even if he feels “guilty” he’s still perfectly fine with people who are all for exterminating the Jedi. That’s like hanging out with a bunch of fascists and doing absolutely nothing to the people that they’re persecuting. Did he save his master? Yes but he did nothing to protect him from the other guy who is perfectly fine with the genocide so physically, he saved him, but emotionally he didn’t give a hoot so again it’s hard to feel sympathetic to the so-called “moral guy” if the only feels guilty and does absolutely nothing to help out and still has those thoughts in the first place. Again, this kid supposedly was a part of the order so he should know better but nope he still having that thought and is still OK with hanging out with people who have no problems selling them out to the empire. Those thoughts you shouldn’t feel “guilty” about. You should feel complete and utter disgusted with them and be doing something to help out the people. But then again, what do I expect about the same person who said that she cheered when order 66 happened?

[autistic-puffin]

AHSOKA SPOILERS AHEAD

(also, long post apparently)

i'm actually kind of obsessed with this latest tidbit from baylan. the fact that he decided to reframe the fall of the jedi both as something inevitable, a repeated pattern throughout history, and that they had coming due to their own weakness, instead of what it is (genocide).

we've all seen how different jedi responded, how some became inquisitors or otherwise turned to the dark side, how some turned their backs on the force entirely (like kanan tried to), how some stayed completely hidden and separate (yoda), how some ended up training new jedi (like kanan also did)

it's really interesting to me that baylan is aware of the other "wild" jedi (bokken jedi, apparently), and considers himself different and separate from them, but shin still associates herself with the bokken jedi. when they first appeared, given their red lightsabers, i figured they had to be more sith-aligned, though probably not outright sith. if they're gray enough for shin to still consider herself as jedi-trained before baylan corrects her, then that's super interesting to me also.

the other day i rewatched the first two episodes of rebels. the very first episode opens with darth vader telling the grand inquisitor to hunt down the force sensitive children - and any surviving jedi that could train them. i am beyond obsessed with the apparent inevitability that jedi will train new jedi, but moreso also with the different ways we see this play out.

there's kanan, who retains his jedi identity (obviously there were some bumps along the road with that) and has a proper padawan he trains/raises to be a jedi.

there's ahsoka "i am no jedi" tano, the "part-timer", who does also apparently take on a (basically not force sensitive) padawan and abandons her. we also see her refuse to train grogu.

and now there's baylan skoll, who trains a padawan to be "more" than a jedi, who seems (at least sometimes) reluctant to kill other jedi, who has semi-fond memories of the temple, whose padawan seems actually uncertain about their status as jedi or not.

both ahsoka and baylan definitely exist in the gray between jedi and sith, with ahsoka basically still being a jedi and baylan being much more dark side-adjacent.

it's just so fascinating to me that we've seen multiple jedi/former-jedi/jedi-adjacent people that are so bitter and disillusioned with the jedi order, so critical of their failures and shortcomings, that they seem to ignore the reality of what happened. they were massacred. their home and the center of their culture was burned, their children were murdered, they were shot down by their own troops in the field, they were chased and hunted down and killed. regardless of the very real flaws of the jedi order, they didn't deserve that. no one does.

i think baylan's reframing makes a lot of sense as a classic trauma response. "this bad thing that happened was actually for a reason beyond palpatine's agenda, the jedi were too weak." because if there were real reasons, then it's preventable. he also, though, views it as a continuing pattern in history. the key thing here is that he thinks (apparently) it's a pattern that he can stop. he seems to both think it was the fault of the jedi for their weakness but also an inevitable pattern of history. he addresses both by raising his apprentice to be "more" than a jedi and by this mysterious plan to stop the cycle of history from repeating itself.

this is the longest post i've written about star wars in a minute and i'm not entirely sure my thoughts have made sense (definitely doubtful they'll be read). i also haven't looked at what people have been saying for this week's episode, so it'll be hilarious if someone else has already spoken on this. it's turning around in circles in my brain. i just think the post-order 66 jedi are really really interesting and i think about them a lot

[sonic-fairyspell]

Rambles about the recent TBB episodes, actually mostly just episode 10 "Identity Crisis" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This episode really reminded us that the Empire is fucking evil. Kidnapping Force Sensitive children? Testing and experimenting on them? I'm shocked. Jk, no I'm not, of course they're doing this. And of course Cad Bane is the one doing it, the prick.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Emerie: Why children? Are there not adults that could serve this purpose? Hemlock: There are few adults left with such characteristics No, really? Gee, I wonder why.. /s Could it be because the Empire had them all murdered and genocided? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And it further reminded us that Force Sensitive kids are in constant danger from being stolen and shit. I mean, gee, it's almost like one of the points of the Jedi Order was to prevent shit like from happening!!!! As proven in the TCW season 2 episode, "Children of the Force"!!!

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These poor kids deserve so much better than this! All I can think about is how terrible it is that they're in this place, that they're being treated this way. I also think about how these kids could've/would've maybe been Jedi Younglings if things had gone differently.

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I did, though, like seeing Emerie start to realize things. Seeing that what Hemlock is having done to the kids is wrong, that the kids are there at all is wrong. I liked the little peak into her backstory too. And seeing her want to try and help those kids. I really hope she has the full change of heart and maybe helps rescue them and Omega. That would be nice.

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To finish: Justice for these Kids. With Emerie's help.